Religious Utopias Gone Amuck

It seems to me you're imposing your politics on religeon. As a believer your article didn't register at all.

Dear K:

"You are the petri dish upon which this fanatacism (sic.) grows, and it is the ignorant peasant who kills and dies for your beliefs."

Is that so?

"Communism will never succeed until the myth of God is removed from the minds of men. . . . A Marxist must be a materialist . . . an enemy of religion."

- V. I. Lenin

Who killed more? The religious or the Marxist atheists? Face it like a man. You know the answer.

Dear Concerned Christian Now Liberated:

"Hmmmm, Christ taught? As per many contemporary NT exegetes to include three On Faith Panelists, Professors Borg, Crossan and Fredriksen, only 30% of the NT is "authentic Jesus"."

How do they know? Crossan knows because Funk Said so. Funk knows because Borg says so. Borg knows because Wilson says so. Wilson knows because Crossan says so. Nice little daisy chain there.

They have to reject ninety percent of the text because it contradicts their desired conclusions. So chuck the text, if you don't like it. Just don't call it scholarship. It is propaganda for their school of thought.

Incidentally, the "sociological" thing wouldn't have set me off if I hadn't already been sensitized by the history gaffe. It's just that two damn-fool things in a row lost me. That's all.

Also, you are correct about my grammar, but it still feels right the way I wrote it. Maybe it's my hillbilly background. Sorry if it jarred you.

Viejita del oeste:

"I'm sure it makes you feel good to feel that you are right and everyone else is misinformed. That's precisely what makes you sound like an idiot."

I guess not everyone can be your intellectual equal. When you're as bright as you are, everyone else must seem like an idiot.

"I can only hope that those who are offended but this thoughtful and well-reasoned column just plain don't get it."

I'm not offended by the column. I didn't READ the column. That has been my point all along.

Elohist:

As William Buckley said a long time ago, "Live by the pointing out of solecisms, die by the pointing out of solecisms." I fully expected someone to find one. You can't do these impromptu blogs without leaving a few.

For instance: "Since universities like Washington in St. Louis..." should have been "Since universities such as Washington in St. Louis..."

Of course, neither of us is an expert panelist held forth by the Washington Post as someone who knows what he's talking about. Stevens-Arroyo is. You would expect him to take a little time and make sure he actually does know what he's talking about.

Most Esteemed Godfrey"

"Where the Reformation can be traced to and when it was is two different things."

When you have two subjects, the verb is plural. "ARE two different things" is what you should have written. It's just a bad use of language. Apparently your snooze in the haystack is a congenital condition.

K:

I amnot a believer, but I do believe that you are being rude. Dial it down a notch there buddy.

If the population at large in any of these self-described utopias would pull the ring out of their nose, those who would control them by way of that faith would have no ground on which to stand.

M Stevens-Arroyo, it is people like you, believers and apologists for religious blindness, who make all these phony utopias possible - heaven is a utopia, don't you get it?
You are the petri dish upon which this fanatacism grows, and it is the ignorant peasant who kills and dies for your beliefs.

Still, I don't see humanity freeing itself of these religious absurdities. You and the other believers in a harmonic growth will kill us off.

Thanks believers, you cowards.

Godfrey
I'm sure it makes you feel good to feel that you are right and everyone else is misinformed. That's precisely what makes you sound like an idiot.

I can only hope that those who are offended but this thoughtful and well-reasoned column just plain don't get it.

Mohamed Malleck SC Canada

Greenspan had ample opportunity as Federal Reserve boss to publicly reprimand Bush’s policies and spending. Actually that is part of the chairman’s job description, why did he wait until he was no longer chairman?
Greenspan is two things.
1 A fair weather friend. -- As the Presidents popularity faded Alan lost all desire to be linked to Bush.

2 He is a CapiTalist with a capital T. – The timing on the release and distribution of his book is geared for maximum profit. That is profit both in personal cash and profit in power with Democrats. Bob Woodward probably instructed Greenspan as to how – For a fee of course.

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on

Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals

in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to

Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John

Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face

a crackdown. Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to

Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the

country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and

its laws were made by parliament. "If those are not your values, if

you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then

Australia is not for you", he said on National Television. "I'd be

saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing

people in Australia: one the Australian law and another Islamic law

that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent

courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the

opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps,

then, that's a better option", Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he

said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to

the other country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told

reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should

"clear off". Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and

who don't want, to live by Australian values and understand them, well

then, they can basically clear off", he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by

saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.

Quote: "IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave it.

I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some

individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we

have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of

Australians."

"However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the

'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility

that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against

immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a

better life by coming to Australia." "However, there are a few things

that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some

born here, need to understand." "This idea of Australia being a

multi-cultural community has served only to dilute our sovereignty and

our national identity. And, as Australians, we have our own culture,

our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle." "This

culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials

and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese,

Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to

become part of our society. Learn the language!" "Most Australians

believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing, political

push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian

principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is

certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If

God offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world

as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is

that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with

us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like "A Fair Go",

then you should seriously consider a move to another part of this

planet. We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change,

and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By

all means, keep your culture, but do not force it on others. "This is

OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will

allow you every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done

complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our

Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take

advantage of one other great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO

LEAVE'." "If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to

come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

Maybe if we circulate this amongst ourselves, Canadian and American

citizens will find the backbone to start speaking and voicing

the same truths !

Elohist:

"Apparently you discount Hus, who definitely was about reformation in the 15th century. And don't forget Wyclif of the same time. Protestants trace the Reformation to these leaders and their ideas: read any book and you will see this."

Where the Reformation can be traced to and when it was is two different things. The Reformation is considered to have started with Luther's challenge to the Church in 1517, and to have ended with the Peace of Westphalia in 1648.

Look at it this way: the Missouri Compromise had a lot to do with the Civil War, but the war actually began with the attack on Fort Sumpter. If you try to say that the war began in Missouri, people will look at you funny.

""Sociology" is a both a human category of understanding AND a university curriculum entry."

And neither usage applies to "sociological change." He meant "societal change," and he should have said "societal change." It's just a bad use of language.

As for missing the forest for the trees, I felt from the beginning that I couldn't trust the author, so I didn't look at his trees. I went somewhere else and looked at a haystack.

咳。我是中国人，我爱美国

I think every thing is stated perfectly in
1 Corinthains, chapter 13 for all the different
religions of the world.
It's to long to write here but a small part:
Love suffers long and is kind; love does not
envy; love does not parade itself, is not puffed
up. does not behave rudely, does not seek its
own, is not provoked, thinks no evil;
Does not rejoice in iniquity, but rejoices in
the truth; bears all things, believes all things;
hopes all things, endures all things.
Love never fails. But, whether there are prophecis they will fail; whether there are tongues, they will cease; where there is knowledge, it will vanish away.
And now abide faith, hope, love, these three;
but the greatest of these is love.

DG,

You noted: "Because most Christians do not practice the faith as Christ taught."

Hmmmm, Christ taught? As per many contemporary NT exegetes to include three On Faith Panelists, Professors Borg, Crossan and Fredriksen, only 30% of the NT is "authentic Jesus". The rest is composed of embellishments (e.g. miracles, visions of "pretty/ugly talking flying fictional thingies", virgin births, fortune telling and prophecy fiction created by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects. Why? They wanted to show that their "God-Man" was superior to the Caesars and all the Greek and Roman gods.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those that came before. In Jesus' case, it was the good ways and sayings of the Canaanites, Hittites, Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, the OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

So exactly what did Jesus teach that was not said before? Not much!!!!

The correct commentary would be "Christians follow the codes, laws, good sayings and good examples of the ancients. We are no longer brainwashed with visitations from "pwtfft"s, "miracles" and the "wishful thinking" of a physical resurrection. The competition with the Caesars and the Greeks and their gods is over!!!!!!!

"All of the major religions call for peace. If we all practiced the faith we claim to adhere to, there would be peace."

This should read, "The good ancients practiced/preached peace to all. We should follow their example".

I do not trust the religious to practice the ideals they preach, do you? One man's "good works" is another man's genocide.

Totalitarian utopias are best defeated by reason in the service of truth, freedom and justice. Not by intolerant, religious dogma.

I don't understand what is this crap.

Even if I concede that Mr. Stevens-Arroyo had not read Alan Greenspan devastating indictment of the Bush/Cheney motives in invading Iraq (oil, as we all know but also as it is politically incorrect to say, in Greenspan's words), or incredible turncoat Bernard Kouchner's raving madness at the outrageous warmongering expressed in his statement that the world should prepare for war on Iran, his cynical attempt at portraying the mendacity-based, oil-theft-driven invasion of Iraq as a bad politics inspired by conflicting ideological world-views amounts, in view of its enormity at this juncture in the development of current affirs, to a crime agains humanity.

People who willingly lend their pen to such monstrous propaganda should also be made to answer for their complicity, eventually.

In Europe and U.S., Nonbelievers Are Increasingly Vocal

By Mary Jordan
Washington Post Foreign Service
Saturday, September 15, 2007; Page A01

BURGESS HILL, England -- Every morning on his walk to work, high school teacher Graham Wright recited a favorite Anglican prayer and asked God for strength in the day ahead. Then two years ago, he just stopped.

Wright, 59, said he was overwhelmed by a feeling that religion had become a negative influence in his life and the world. Although he once considered becoming an Anglican vicar, he suddenly found that religion represented nothing he believed in, from Muslim extremists blowing themselves up in God's name to Christians condemning gays, contraception and stem cell research.
"I stopped praying because I lost my faith," said Wright, 59, a thoughtful man with graying hair and clear blue eyes. "Now I truly loathe any sight or sound of religion. I blush at what I used to believe."
Wright is now an avowed atheist and part of a growing number of vocal nonbelievers in Europe and the United States. On both sides of the Atlantic, membership in once-quiet groups of nonbelievers is rising, and books attempting to debunk religion have been surprise bestsellers, including "The God Delusion," by Oxford University professor Richard Dawkins.

New groups of nonbelievers are sprouting on college campuses, anti-religious blogs are expanding across the Internet, and in general, more people are publicly saying they have no religious faith.

More than three out of four people in the world consider themselves religious, and those with no faith are a distinct minority. But especially in richer nations, and nowhere more than in Europe, growing numbers of people are actively saying they don't believe there is a heaven or a hell or anything other than this life.

Many analysts trace the rise of what some are calling the "nonreligious movement" to the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks. The sight of religious fanatics killing 3,000 people caused many to begin questioning -- and rejecting -- all religion.

"This is overwhelmingly the topic of the moment," said Terry Sanderson, president of the National Secular Society of Britain. "Religion in this country was very quiet until September 11, and now it is at the center of everything."

Since the 2001 attacks, a string of religiously inspired bomb and murder plots has shaken Europe. Muslim radicals killed 52 people on the London public transit system in 2005 and 191 on Madrid trains in 2004. People apparently aiming for a reward in heaven were arrested in Britain last year for trying to blow up transatlantic jetliners. And earlier this month in Germany, authorities arrested converts to Islam on charges that they planned to blow up American facilities there.

Many Europeans are angry at demands to use taxpayer money to accommodate Islam, Europe's fastest-growing religion, which now has as many as 20 million followers on the continent. Along with calls for prayer rooms in police stations, foot baths in public places and funding for Islamic schools and mosques, expensive legal battles have broken out over the niqab, the Muslim veil that covers all but the eyes, which some devout women seek to wear in classrooms and court.

Christian fundamentalist groups who want to halt certain science research, reverse abortion and gay rights and teach creationism rather than evolution in schools are also angering people, according to Sanderson and others.

"There is a feeling that religion is being forced on an unwilling public, and now people are beginning to speak out against what they see as rising Islamic and Christian militancy," Sanderson said.

Though the number of nonbelievers speaking their minds is rising, academics say it's impossible to calculate how many people silently share that view. Many people who do not consider themselves religious or belong to any faith group often believe, even if vaguely, in a supreme being or an afterlife. Others are not sure what they believe.

The term atheist can imply aggressiveness in disbelief; many who don't believe in God prefer to call themselves humanists, secularists, freethinkers, rationalists or, a more recently coined term, brights.
"Where religion is weak, people don't feel a need to organize against it," said Phil Zuckerman, an American academic who has written extensively about atheism around the globe.
He and others said secular groups are also gaining strength in countries where religious influence over society looms large, including India, Israel and Turkey. "Any time we see an outspoken movement against religion, it tells us that religion has power there," Zuckerman said.
One group of nonbelievers in particular is attracting attention in Europe: the Council of Ex-Muslims. Founded earlier this year in Germany, the group now has a few hundred members and an expanding number of chapters across the continent. "You can't tell us religion is peaceful -- look around at the misery it is causing," said Maryam Namazie, leader of the group's British chapter.

She and other leaders of the council held a news conference in The Hague to launch the Dutch chapter on Sept. 11, the sixth anniversary of the terrorist attacks in the United States. "We are all atheists and nonbelievers, and our goal is not to eradicate Islam from the face of the earth," but to make it a private matter that is not imposed on others, she said.

The majority of nonbelievers say they are speaking out only because of religious fanatics. But some atheists are also extreme, urging people, for example, to blot out the words "In God We Trust" from every dollar bill they carry.

Gaining political clout and access to television and radio airtime is the goal of many of these groups. With a higher profile, they say, they could, for instance, lobby for all religious rooms in public hospitals to be closed, as a response to Muslims demanding prayer rooms because Christians have chapels.

Associations of nonbelievers are also moving to address the growing demand in Britain, Spain, Italy and other European countries for nonreligious weddings, funerals and celebrations for new babies. They are helping arrange ceremonies that steer clear of talk of God, heaven and miracles and celebrate, as they say, "this one life we know."

The British Humanist Association, which urges people who think "the government pays too much attention to religious groups" to join them, has seen its membership double in two years to 6,500.

A humanist group in the British Parliament that looks out for the rights of the nonreligious now has about 120 members, up from about 25 a year ago.

Doreen Massey, a Labor Party member of the House of Lords who belongs to that group, said most British people don't want legislators to make public policy decisions on issues such as abortion and other health matters based on their religious affiliation.

But the church has disproportionate power and influence in Parliament, she said. Forexample, she said, polls show that 80 percent of Britons want the terminally ill who are in pain to have the right to a medically assisted death, yet such proposals have been effectively killed by a handful of powerful bishops.

"We can't accept that religious faiths have a monopoly on ethics, morality and spirituality," Massey said. Now, she added, humanist and secularist groups are becoming "more confident and more powerful" and recognize that they represent the wishes of huge numbers of people.
While the faithful have traditionally met like-minded people at the local church, mosque or synagogue, it has long been difficult for those without religion to find each other. The expansion of the Internet has made it a vital way for nonbelievers to connect.

In retirement centers, restaurants, homes and public lectures and debates, nonbelievers are convening to talk about how to push back what they see as increasingly intrusive religion.

"Born Again Atheist," "Happy Heathen" and other anti-religious T-shirts and bumper stickers are increasingly seen on the streets. Groups such as the Skeptics in the Pub in London, which recently met to discuss this topic, "God: The Failed Hypothesis," are now finding that they need bigger rooms to accommodate those who find them online.

Wright, the teacher who recently declared himself a nonbeliever, is one of thousands of people who have joined dues-paying secular and humanist groups in Europe this year.

Sitting in his living room on a quiet cul-de-sac in this English town of 30,000, Wright said he now goes online every day to keep up with the latest atheist news.

"One has to step up and stem the rise of religious influence," said Wright, who is thinking of becoming a celebrant at humanist funerals. He said he recently went to the church funeral of his brother-in-law and couldn't bear the "vacuous prayers of the vicar," who, Wright said, "looked bored and couldn't wait to leave."

Now, instead of each morning silently reciting a favorite nighttime prayer, "Lighten our darkness, we beseech thee, O Lord, and by thy great mercy defend us from all perils and dangers . . . " (from the Anglican Book of Common Prayer), he spends the time just thinking about the day ahead.

He said his deceased mother, a Catholic, was comforted by her faith: "It kept her going through difficult times," particularly when his father left her when he and his sister were young.

"I really don't know how I will react if something really bad happens," he said. "But there is no going back. There is nothing to go back to."

Not believing in an afterlife, he said, "makes you think you have to make the most of this life. It's the now that matters. It also makes you feel a greater urgency of things that matter," such as halting global warming, and not just dismissing it as being "all in God's plan."

He called himself heartened that the National Secular Society, which he recently joined, is planning to open chapters at a dozen universities this fall. The rising presence of the nonreligious movement, he said, is "fantastic."

"It's a bit of opposition, isn't it?" he said. "Why should these religious groups hold so much
sway?

BOFUJ:

That was so full of crap I could fill a tub with it.

I like the above phrase "In America, Nonbelievers Find Strength in Numbers". There is another quote I enjoy, "Those who stand for nothing, fall for anything." It seems to be a full time occupation of Atheists to poke holes in religious beliefs in order to justify their atheists beliefs.

Atheist have not, do not , and will not ever understand the concept of "faith." they would rather believe in emperical science with dead end conclusions whereby the very fundamentals of science cannot be wrapped in one unifying theory.

Yes whereby most religions have one unifying theory, atheists must rely on emperical non-connecting/disjointed theories. All atheists tombstone will enscribe the follwing: "Here I lie with no where to go."

So please spare me with your psuedo intellect, while you snub your nose on believers thinking you are better intellectually and socially.

Atheists epitomize what it is to be a "lost soul" Worst of all it is this ghost (lack of a soul) that haunts atheists all their life.

People who insist on fundamentalist religious or political ideologies are generally undereducated and economically insecure or people who are willing to use fundamentalism as a way to gain power and wealth. Both types fear change, the first because they fear that if they don't
agree, things will get worse for them, the second because they fear that a change for the better would put them out of power. Humans seem to need some kind of faith just to get out of bed in the morning, but killing people to get them to agree with you is counterproductive. Live and let live works better, especially if the goal is cooperation instead of domination.

"And the best tool against distorted religious teaching is virtuous religious practice" or refocusing religion back to the PRIVATE spiritual life of individual people where it belongs.

You are very right. It is not what people believe or want to do, but what they want others to believe or others to do (or not do) that causes the trouble. That is as true with Islamic Fundamentalists, Protestant Fundamentalists, or Mormon Fundamentalists.

I just keep thinking that at some point people will get sick and tired of being told how to practice their religion and rebel. But rarely do I see that happen.

Nice piece! Fundamentalism and power are two conjoined sisters, and are used to justify each other. Atheists and pseudo-scientists are also forms of fundamentalists; OUR BOOK IS THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH AND YOUR'S IS WRONG!

It still all boils down to what Freud called EGO and the Bible called PRIDE; i.e. too much attachment to the self.

And the best tool against distorted religious teaching is virtuous religious practice. Faith matters when it is put into practice by good works.

It's always fascinating to read people who advocate more-of-the-same solutions -- "If we just do more of the same, and do it right, there won't be a problem."

Wrong. It's the 21st century, and it is long past time we gave up the idea that faith is a good idea.

For most people of faith, the problems of fundamentalism are explained away by saying that "it's just faith wrongly applied." But fundamentalism is a structural feature of any belief that legitimates absolute values by reference to a transcendent Authority that lies outside our human conversation -- Christianity, Communism, Islam, Fascism -- death and destruction are inevitably the result of worship of transcendent Authority. Behind every claim to absolute values is a sword itching to come out. That is a structural feature of the Absolute, and it won't change no matter how many good works are done.

This is especially true when Authority beliefs proselytize -- an act that says "you as a human are less than human until you adopt my beliefs, and tolerable only to the extent that you exhibit potential to do so" and which also proclaims that all other modes of thought exist only to be stamped out. Islam and Christianity are quite frank about their desire to instantiate themselves in every mind on earth. The double structural whammy here is that frequently liberal believers refrain from inflicting their beliefs on others, leaving the field of evangelization to the worst believers of all. If good people don't spread the Word of Jesus, Marx, or the State, bad people always will. Virtue (better behavior) cannot save a situation which is created by the structural features of belief, not individual behavior.

The only salvation for humans is to give up the idea that salvation exists. Liberal believers simply legitimate the evil that is fundamentalism -- first by legitimating belief in the supernatural, second by creating an enormous pool of apathetic believers who can be used as fodder for fundies, third by agitating against principled atheists who constitute the real opposition to religious insanity, fourth by refusing to confront fundyism, and putting down those of us who do. The sad fact is that liberal religious belief is serious problem for atheists -- for liberals are frequently our allies on many issues involving fundies, but at that same time, they legitimate fundy belief, and help keep it going.

Michael

To Godfrey:

Apparently you discount Hus, who definitely was about reformation in the 15th century. And don't forget Wyclif of the same time. Protestants trace the Reformation to these leaders and their ideas: read any book and you will see this. "Sociology" is a both a human category of understanding AND a university curriculum entry. Since universities like Washington in St. Louis have now disbanded their sociology departments, would it be a "solecism" to say that sociology doesn't exist in the state of Missouri?

Talk about a blogger missing the forest for the trees..you get the prize!

Humans need coherence in thinking about religion, god and science. A rendition of such coherent philosophy has been scripted as "Universal Religion and God." Due to limitation of the space here, I have to give the link that describes this philosophy that can be easily accepted by people of all existing faiths including the scientists and atheists: http://www.pro-prosperity.com/Universal%20Religion%20and%20God.html

The philosophy of Universal Religion and God may have already influenced the White House to pursue for winning a war on terrorism nonviolently. http://www.pro-prosperity.com/WinningTerrorismWarNonviolently.html

Once Swami Vivekananda had longed for a universal religion that all humans could embrace. My Universal Religion and God must fulfill that longing. More importantly, my Universal Religion and God seems to be a unique path to prosperity of mankind amid stability and non-violence.

I agree with Mr. Stevens-Arroyo. So many people call themselves "Christian", "Muslim", "Jew", and yet, they are not. They do not PRACTICE their faith. A person can call himself a Christian, but if he wages a pre-emptive unjust war, he is NOT a Christian, regardless of what he calls himself. These faiths are not evil in an of themselves, they are made to seem evil because people distort teachings in order to satisfy their own greed, or lust for power, or desire for revenge. Gandhi said, "I like your Christ, but I do not like Christians." Why? Because most Christians do not practice the faith as Christ taught. This is not the fault of Christianity, it is the fault of humans who "use" religion to their own selfish ends. The same can be said of any religion. All of the major religions call for peace. If we all practiced the faith we claim to adhere to, there would be peace!

Enjoy my fun new spelling of "atheists." No extra charge.

"A legion of the godless is rising up against the forces of religiosity in American society."

Since Christians are about 75% of the population, and athiests no more than 15%, I think you can rest easy. Fifteen against seventy-five hardly constitutes a legion. Though there might be enough of us to begin to defend our individual rights.


In America, Nonbelievers Find Strength in Numbers

By Jacqueline L. Salmon
Washington Post Staff Writer
Saturday, September 15, 2007; Page A14

A legion of the godless is rising up against the forces of religiosity in American society.

"People who were ashamed to say there is no God now say, 'Wow, there are others out there who think like me, and it feels damned good,' " said Margaret Downey, president of the Atheist Alliance International, whose membership has almost doubled in the past year to 5,200. It has a 500-person waiting list for its convention in Crystal City later this month.

Differences in Views And Demographics

28 percent of atheists have post-graduate degrees or professional training.

15 percent of non-atheists have post-graduate degrees or professional training.

1.3 Atheists' average number of children.

1.95 Non-atheists' average number of children.

3 percent of atheists are "strong Republicans."

16 percent of non-atheists are "strong Republicans."

SOURCE: 2005 Baylor University Religion Survey and Barna Group

Most Blogged About Article

Focusing fresh attention on atheism in the United States was the publication last week of a book about Mother Teresa that lays out her secret struggle with her doubts about God. "Mother Teresa: Come Be My Light" has led some high-profile atheists to say that her spiritual wavering was actually atheism.

"She couldn't bring herself to believe in God, but she wished she could," said Christopher Hitchens, a Washington-based columnist and author of "God Is Not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything," the latest atheist bestseller.

In the past two years, five books touting atheism have hit the bestseller lists, outselling such religious tomes as Pope Benedict XVI's book on Jesus, and popular Christian novelist Tim LaHaye's latest book, "Kingdom Come," according to Nielsen BookScan.

Representatives of atheist and humanist groups say the books probably haven't converted many religious people. But, said Lori Lipman Brown, a lobbyist for the Secular Coalition for America, which represents eight atheist or humanist organizations, the books "tremendously increase the visibility of nontheist rights."

Nontheist is another term for atheist, or someone who does not believe in a supreme being.

You lost me in the first paragraph. The Protestant Reformation happened in the 16th and 17th centuries, not the 15th, and it was not a socioligical change. It may have been a social change, or a societal change, but there was no such thing as sociology in the 16th century.

That's two solecisms in one paragraph.

You lost me.

A very insighful and well written piece.

A very insighful and well written piece.

I admire people at CUNY for freely sharing knoweledge with me in the past. Had some lively edisscussions on GOT awhile back. Five or ten years ago on the internet is along time.

In my mind, parties in general have been obsessed with defining evil, scientifically gathering data on actions by ones labelled as evil in an attempt to construct some sort of evil model to combat evil.

Funny though, to me the lesson of eating that apple is a failure of mankind to resist evil. As a kid, if I were told directly not to do something, I usually did it. Was my personal war against oppression I think.

Now at the urging of certain efriends, I am beginning to study Muslim texts, right now Book 34 of Sahih Muslim, the Book of Knoweledge (Kitab AL-'llm).

Ironic to me is that Muslim, says to me, why repeat the mistakes of Jews and Christians. But, that is what we do as mankind, we repeat mistakes of past rejecting knoweledge applied which is wisdom to me.

This political neoconservative movement based on the old school moral majority reminds me of the wandering Jews partying, sinning or resisting evil at the end of their wandering days. In effect, they were still lost. As pointed out by Greenspan, these people lost their ways from fundemental practices of conservatism all the while committing adultry, pedophile voyuerism and probably abuse of drugs and alcohol as Abramoff really was the Party master. Oh yea, some of them liked to gamble too.

As Sahih Muslim points out the Last Hours are devoid of knoweledge or what I would call truth, such as no wmds were ever found in Iraq. One of the neocons, defeated heavily in last election, went out claiming there were wmds still to be found in Iraq after some three years of searching by thousands upon thousands of individuals.

Mainly though I see a strong parallel to a Christian verse and that is "Whoa to those who cause the children to sin". Sahih points out that righteous leaders leading in righteousness have blessings for both leader and follower. And that Leaders leading in error will have negative consequence for both leaders and followers. In both cases he points out both are not immuned to rewards of righteousness or sin.

I think that evil not resisted involved saying no to an overated political hack or not joining into the spin-of-the-day or the freak-of-day coverage. Either way it was all about money through ratings.

Knoweledge avoided was through political bias reporting with little regard for true investigative journalism. Another mistake from the past, reporting all the news that fits rather than all the news that is fit for printing, wmds included.

Now I wonder what Sahih Muslim would say about civil societies actually prosecuting suspects in a court of law by a jury of peers rather than going for a political fix. Am sure Jesus Christ would say don't do miracles for politicians.

Bravo. Wonderful article!

But before Religion gets completely off the hook for today's actions by their adherents, I would like to point out one inconvenient truth for you:

Why is it? That the Bible is so chock full of contradictions – including varying philosophies that portray God as both an authoritarian uncaring dictator AND a loving humanitarian. With such a wide disparate range of models to choose from in depicting God, is it any wonder that a power hungry ideologue can “pick and choose” dogma he pleases from the “holy” book to pursue his un-noble plans.

As a nonbeliever I have always noted that if Religion was really true – the focus would not be arguing/fighting over what God “really” wanted. The focus would instead be on the good works themselves. (You seem to go here -- although from a religious view -- I respect that!)

If there was really a divine principle out there, people would have it written in their hearts what God really wanted – including which religious leaders to follow.

Instead, even the Bible warns religious adherents they cannot trust their feelings. Instead, there is test (which I don’t see the religious right following) “Ye shall know them by their works.”

Since most of today’s religious groups act dumber or even more evil than the mainstream (by their actions of “aiding and abetting” corruption in this country, not necessarily via their intentions) --as can be seen by their strong support of Dubya – what better evidence is there than this for the lack of a divine principle operating in our daily lives?

Bravo. Wonderful article!

But before Religion gets completely off the hook for today's actions by their adherents, I would like to point out one inconvenient truth for you:

Why is it? That the Bible is so chock full of contradictions – including varying philosophies that portray God as both an authoritarian uncaring dictator AND a loving humanitarian. With such a wide disparate range of models to choose from in depicting God, is it any wonder that a power hungry ideologue can “pick and choose” dogma he pleases from the “holy” book to pursue his one un-noble deeds.

As a nonbeliever I have always noted that if Religion was really true – the focus would not be arguing/fighting over what God “really” wanted. The focus would instead be on the good works themselves.

If there was really a divine principle out there, people would have it written in their hearts what God really wanted – including which religious leaders to follow.

Instead, even the Bible warns religious adherents they cannot trust their feelings. Instead, there is test (which I don’t see the religious right following) “Ye shall know them by their works.”

Since most of today’s religious groups act dumber or even more evil than the mainstream (by their actions of “aiding and abetting” corruption in this country, not necessarily via their intentions) --as evidenced by their strong support of Dubya – what better evidence is there than this for the lack of a divine principle operating in our daily lives?

The question: "To what extent are problems in the Middle East about religion and to what extent are they about politics? Does it matter?

I would add "and to what extent are they about water supplies?

The answer: All Three with the religious problems and foundation flaws feeding the political and water problems.

How to fix???

Recognize the flaws in the foundations of said religions:

The flaws:

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men. 1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics.

3. Mohammed, the "holey not holy hallucinator, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" aka "pwtfft"s and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers , the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani koranics, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases and the Filipino koranics. And who funds these acts of terror? Islamic Iran, the Third Axis of Evil and also the "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

How to fix? Rewrite the OT, NT and Koran in historical terms.

Next???

Turn control of Jerusalem and the water supplies in the area over to the UN.

Use the current oil/blood/terror profits of Iran, Saudia Arabia, Kuwait, etc. to fund water desalination plant construction throughout the Mideast.