Talibanization of Pakistan

i believe individuals who happen to be muslim share the innate desires for peace, love and harmony, but,

HELP!!!!

i've been asking this question over and over (apologies to those who've seen it) on various threads, but still no answer:

are there verses you can quote from the koran (that were not later superseded by the ugly medina verses) and hadith that promote tolerance, fairness, equality, freedom of religion, self-determination etc...?

please, i would really like to know.

clearthinking1

Your post to spark1:

What about your policies about minorities and specially about Dalits.

Mr. Gandhi, you ask a lot of questions. That is the sign of a wise man. I would like to respond to a couple and pose my own question. "If the majority of the population of Pakistan want the kind of rule that Taliban offers how can the rest of the world stop them?" The short answer is that we can't. However, democracy is an ongoing process, not a one time event. If Sharia was held to regular plebiscite, with true open debate, I would have no problem with it although the concept of open debate under Sharia might be an oxymoron.

"Why not just let them sleep in the bed they choose to make for themselves?" There is the rub. We tried that in Afghanistan after the departure of the Soviets and it cost us. I think that it might be a good time for a new isolationism in the US but that sitting-in-the-living-room-with-a-shotgun-on-your-lap policy requires that you use the shotgun when somebody breaks in to be credible. How would you feel Mr. Gandhi if we used the big one in response?

Well, there's kind of a hitch about saying, 'If a majority want severe Sharia law, that's democracy,' ...it's not. Democracy requires an ongoing commitment to the responsibilities of freedom: not just using a 'ballot' or 'implied ballot' as the procedure by which religious authority is established.

You can't have democracy without *Liberty,* not really, and in some states, it seems that's just not on the table right now: the people actually have to want to govern themselves, not just choose what rule to impose on the whole.

One thing about 'insurgencies,' is, (as the Taliban basically are, their movement is a second generation of some US-supported insurgency against the 'godless' USSR in Afghanistan,) Well, the thing about such insurgencies is, they have a tendency to find out that *governing* is quite another matter entirely, (and that's a real reason they couldn't hold the government of Afghanistan.)

In a sense, they're one of the best arguments out there *for* Liberty: outside of their version of 'holy war' ..they've really got very little to offer, if you hear them speak for themselves. They should be presented as such.

In a sense, they represent *control,* and much of the population of Afghanistan and similar territories *don't want to be controlled,* they're kind of about managing their affairs locally. ...that culture's something the likes of the Taliban and Al-Qaeda have used, for their own purposes, but that same thing could be used to the end of keeping them from taking power.

Hello/Nomastae Mr. GANDHI.

I'm honored. You're not MAHATMA but you do resemble some of his looks and thinking. But

In any CULTure and in all SECTions and in every Nation that too-much of anything is no good. Includes also in nature.

This means that "TOO MUCH RELIGION" , be it Abrahamic or Vedic etc.. has its drawbacks and repercussions both for “Self” and Humanity.

The religious destruction of another religion by desecrating and deliberately destroying, i.e., the BAMIYAN giant Buddha’s was so stupid and surely leads to the corridors to Hell.

IF Muhammad [pbuh?] can say, “… the loss/killing of one human is a loss for all humanity’ or similarly said , then in the same vain destroying BAMIYAN is a loss to all humanity too, NO?

Sir; Imagine if the “Taj Mahal” was destroyed? Or the “Kabba” was destroyed? Or the “Western-Wailing-Wall” or the “Al Aqsa Dome”? Remember 911 “Twin Towers”?

And So, one might ask, “How many tourists [potential] was lost” Or better yet, “How much “REVENUE” did They or We loose?

I know there is sometimes a ‘SANITY” to insanity, but not in this type of behaviors. NO EXCUSE!

Related Article:

Accommodating the Taliban
An Ill Conceived and Unprincipled Policy
By: Raouf Ebeid – Editor

http://www.politicalislam.org/embed_doc.php?ArticleID=261

Lastly, The Iranian revolution is a clear example that religion in politics is not a danger to other countries, its another matter that Iraq was encouraged and supplied with lethal arms to fight Iran for several years.
Posted by: SPARK1

Yet they fight proxy wars using Hezbollah, Hamas and many others. They provided support to Iraqis after the American invasion and today have their fingers all over Iraq. They have talked about wiping Israel off the map and are working hard to aquire nuclear arms. Their efforts though Hezbollah have destabalized the legitimate government of Lebanon. Hardly the efforts of a peaceful nation but the clear signal of its religiously dominated government's will to spread its influence.

Have you read the Iranian Constitution? You might be interested in this paragraph from the section on the "The Form of Government in Islam":

"With due attention to the Islamic content of the Iranian Revolution, the Constitution provides the necessary basis for ensuring the continuation of the Revolution at home and abroad. In particular, in the development of international relations, the Constitution will strive with other Islamic and popular movements to prepare the way for the formation of a single world community (in accordance with the Koranic verse "This your community is a single community, and I am your Lord, so worship Me" [21:92]), and to assure the continuation of the struggle for the liberation of all deprived and oppressed peoples in the world."

Did you get that? The word "abroad"? That my friend is a declararion of war on all non-islamic societies. Their constitution, the soul of the nation, is directed at converting the world to Islam. That is bigotry at its worse and akin to other bigoted and fascist movements. And its all due to the Islamic religion holding governmental power. Religion should never have power over people, never.

If the people of Pakistan want the Talibanization of their country, why are the Taliban bringing it to them at the point of a gun? Why did the citizens of the latest city that the Taliban attacked fight against them? Citizens, not the army. Why do we not see Palistanis voting for these impositions? Because no one votes for slavery.

Get this, the Taliban are evil and should never be allowed to hold any power again. They have proven themselves like the Khmer Rouge proved themselves, and a mafia should never be allowed power anywhere, even if it means those outside Pakistan must come in to prevent them from holding power. The US declared war on the Taliban when they protected those who attacked us. That war is not over. And if you thought the Republicans were hard on the Taliban you haven't seen what the Democrats can do. Remember, democrats lead this nation in WW2, fighting world powers on two fronts. We saw the evil and vanquished it and we will do it again.

Spark1 writes:
"There are religious parties in Europe who are in power politics - then why we should deny such a right to the people in Muslim countries."

BECAUSE: In the year 2009, Islam stands out as being uniquely intolerant and violent. The PHILOSOPHY (not all followers) of most religions is peaceful. Even Christianity has evolved from its violent history. Islam has not changed because the infallible (but intolerant and violent) Koran cannot be changed. Sorry, there are no easy answers for people who cannot let go and walk away from the Koran.

FIVE REGIONAL CITIES OF PAKISTAN should be upgraded with in the provinces in the country. Regional cities of Dera Ismail Khan in NWFP, Gawadar/ Qalat in Balouchistan, Sukkar/ Larkana in Upper Sind, Jehlam/ Rawalpindi and Multan in Punjab province. These regional cities have been ignored by the federal and provincial governments although these cities have their own history, culture and languages.Dera Ismail Khan in south of Pakhtun khwa/MWFP is under seige, Multan/DG Khan in south of Punjab is next target of religious extremists,Sukkar/ Larkana is being rule by criminals, Gawadar/ Qalat is trouble some. The people of these regions have to travel to provincial capitals for every small issue and requirement of the daily life which should be provided in nearby cities. A good number of population travel to big cities for their survival to earn livelihood as the local feudal own majority land and keep the common man as their slaves. Creation of regional government and upgrading of the regional cities will save a lot of money and time of the poor people of these regions. Circuit benches of the High Courts are already working in these areas and only requirement is the additional staff of different departments involved in additional work at the provincial capitals. The concern authorities should immediately consider to upgrade the regional cities. And immediate attention should be given upgrade/build the airports,TV station, civic center, libraries,hospitals, educational institutes and investment opportunities for Pakistanis living abroad and foreign firms to create jobs in the area as majority population in rural Pakistan do not have enough resources to survive. It’s remind me the condition of pre Islamic revolution of Iran in Shah time when the rural Iran was ignored and the capital Tehran was developed in a way to call it Paris of Middle East with modern life style. Couple of other big cities like Isfahan and Caspian sea was taken care of because of foreign tourists but rural area was ruled by cruel police and intelligence. Then what happen rural population supported the Islamic revolution and moved to Tehran and other big cities later on. The new government after revolution developed, built and upgraded the rural areas of Iran accordingly. A fund to upgrade/build these regional cities in Pakistan should be established by public and private sector and Pakistani government, our foreign friends and Pakistanis living abroad may be asked to participate in this development mission in the country..KHWAJA AFTAB ALI,( former secretary, Iranian embassy, Saudi Arabia,1979-88) Advocate High Court & I.P. Attorney-first & the only Pakistani lawyer who earned Intellectual Property laws scholarship in USA,presently residing in Florida, USA.

Religion has been raising human consciousness for centuries. Whatever man is now, whatever little consciousness he has, the whole credit goes to religion. Politics with out religion has been a curse, a calamity; and whatever is ugly in humanity, politics is responsible for.
The fact is that Politics interfere with the religion and for material gains vilify religion.
Writes John Esposito:
"For more than four decades governments formulated policy in the midst of a superpower rivalry that defined the globe and the future in terms of the visible ideological and military threat posed by the Soviet Union. In the aftermath of the cold war, the fall of the Soviet Union and the discrediting of communism have created a "threat vacuum" that has given rise to a search for new enemies. For some Americans the enemy is the economic challenge the Japanese or the European Community represent. For others it is an Islamic world whose 1 billion Muslims form a majority in more than 48 countries and a rapidly growing minority in Europe and America. Some view Islam as the only ideological alternative to the West that can cut across national boundaries, and perceiving it as politically and culturally at odds with Western society, fear it; others consider it more a basic demographic threat...........
The causes of the resurgence are many and differ from country to country, but common catalysts and concerns are identifiable. Secular nationalism (whether in the form of liberal nationalism, Arab nationalism, or socialism) has not provided a sense of national identity or produced strong and prosperous societies. The governments in Muslim countries-- mostly nonelected, authoritarian, and dependent on security forces--have been unable to establish their political legitimacy. They have been blamed for the failure to achieve economic self-sufficiency, to stem the widening gap between rich and poor, to halt widespread corruption, to liberate Palestine, to resist Western political and cultural hegemony. Both the political and the religious establishments have come under criticism, the former as a westernized, secular elite overly concerned with power and privilege, and the latter (in Sunni Muslim nations) as leaders of the faithful who have been co-opted by governments that often control mosques and religious universities and other institutions".

Part2
The politicians without overtly confessing their religious affiliations, strongly reflect their ideas in govt policies. Look at the Bush and his neo-con team plus Blair and other world leaders who fought the latest wars to clear the way for second coming of Jesus.

Lastly, The Iranian revolution is a clear example that religion in politics is not a danger to other countries, its another matter that Iraq was encouraged and supplied with lethal arms to fight Iran for several years.
The victory of FIF in elections was never accepted by the west and they were denied right to form govt which lead to bloody civil war in Algeria.
When militant groups such as Hamas try to resort to democratic means their victory was denied by the west.
BJP is a Hindu religious party with extreme views but they seek power and no one cries. There are religious parties in Europe who are in power politics - then why we should deny such a right to the people in Muslim countries.