Less Pluralism, More Dogmatism

No question that the plight of poor is a great social concern. India, despite its numerous handicaps, has more than trebled the life expectancy of Indian in 50 years. It is not perfect by far.

But the truely wretched of the earth are those people living in African countries being murdered and raped while living in refugee camps, it is those people who live in America with schizophrenia on the streets with no food, no shelter, a disease state induced paranoia, and a social state induced realistic paranoia. It is those people suffering from AIDS because pharmaceutical want to make profits more than deliver cheap drugs to the world, it is those Tibetans that are exiled from their own homes because they don't have the military might to rise up against China, it is those women in the middle east that want to contribute to their society by their intellect, not just their womb.

It is easy to say this is the worst, that is the worst, etc etc.

It is harder to say, this is an opportunity for me to be compassionate for I am the wretch that lives a comfortable life while my fellow man suffers. I am the wretch who says women and gays should have less protections than me, etc etc.

It is even harder to say, my ideology of wanting to get to heaven, my belief that my people and not yours are god's chosen, that I have to right to rule over you, that, you must be like me, that we must be the same, that diversity and disagreement is a sin.

But we can work on this together and make our world better,

hariaum

The three hundred million "Untouchables" in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh are the wretched of the earth.

Christian construct of caste as genetically determined social role: blacks, browns, females, handicapped, poor.

Islamic construct of caste: blacks, yellows, non-arabs, women.

Socrates: there are four types of humans: gold, silver, iron, and bronze. they are known by their actions and nature.

Krishna: A man by is nature is known. Some seek knowledge, some power, some wealth, some simply labor.

Ramayana: to treat equal unequally and to treat unequals equally is injustice.

Sorry if the real world doesn't fit into a neat model of equality but I suppose those against varna (human diversity) believe their IQ is EQUAL to that of handicapped persons and should be loved for what ever they spout. Or we could recognize that human diversity is by definition that in ways we are different and in ways we are the same. It is our continual dynamic spiritual exercise to discriminate appropriately so that we can act justly. Sometimes we get it wrong (no women as priests for mormans or catholics), sometimes we get it right (liberalization in Indian culture that is proceeding faster than in any other democracy in history after Hindus abandoned christian and islamic rule).

hariaum

Untouchables? Let the pot wait a minute before accusing the kettle. The three million untouchables in Pakistan, most of whom are Christian?

The untouchables of Bangaladesh?

They die young, the Untouchables.

Surely, we are not becoming more civilized. Almost the entire Jewish population of the Middle East have been exiled from their homelands--driven out, killed, tortured, etc., their property confiscated.

The ancient pre-Islamic Jewish communities of Egypt (there are now four Jews), Yemen, Syria, Iraq, Iran, Tunisia (was 105,000, now roughly 1900--more left after the vicious racist lunatic synagogue bombing in 2005), Iran, my native country where my family, like so many others, fled in the night, are mostly empty remnants.

Those who remain? No jobs, limited educational options, etc. And what, exactly, has been done, is being done about this?

Progress? I think not.

Zebra4,
As you know (because we have done this before):
All religions are not supremacist. Most spiritual systems throughout human history from the Romans to Native Americans to Hindus have been comfortable with themselves and tolerant of others.

BUT, as is obvious to most objective observers, Islam (and Christianity) stand out for their history of intolerance and vicioius violence simply because someone else believes differently (e.g. kafirs). You can defend Islam all you like, but ultimately the actions today and throughout history speak loudly and clearly.

On your purposeful exploitation of caste (again):
1. There is no Vedic basis of caste by birth.
2. It is a social injustice which is being corrected, just like social injustice against blacks in America is still being corrected.
3. Is islam correting social injustice against "nonbelievers" in islamic countries? The answer is a resounding NO. Discrimination by Muslims prevades the entire society, unlike a majority Hindu country like India.
4. Caste is an english word confusing varna and jati, which you and most others don't understand or want to understand.
5. Caste is not a simple heirarchy. Why else would Brahmins have given up access to political and economic power?
6. Mahatma Gandhi would be considered of a "low" caste according to your heirarchy. Nobody cared.
7. The author of India's constitution was a Dalit. Nobody cared.
8. The current supreme court chief justice is a Dalit. Nobody cares.
9. A recent president was a Dalit. Nobody cared.
10. You only care to exploit the issue. You fool no one.
11. There is terrible poverty and suffering in India. This is not because of Hinduism or caste. The poverty and suffering in Karachi, Mexico city, Africa is not BECAUSE OF Islam or Christianity.
12. Do you care about poverty and suffering or do you see it as an opportunity to convert?
13. You, of course, did not address the long lists of facts posted earlier demonstrating Hindu tolerance.

Good Luck. Don't exploit others' suffering.

The basic theme of CLEARTHINKING has been:
AL RELIGIONS EXCEPT HINDUISM ARE SUPREMACISTS.

He could never explain as to why there has been a hierarchy in Hindu society for thousands of years.

If Hindus could not treat each other equally, how could they not look down upon other people of different religions?

CLEATHINKING once wrote here that the caste system worked well. Someone raised the question: "WORKED WELL FOR WHOM?" Did it work well for the untouchables or only for the twice-born castes?

He could never give us the answer.

Bakulaji,
You ask: "Need I say more?"
Yes, you need to say a lot more.

You need to explain the following FACTS about Hindus in India:
1. 3 of India's presidents have been Muslim.
2. The current PM is Sikh (2nd term).
3. The most powerful politician in India is Sonia Gandhi, an Italian Catholic.
4. The biggest Bollywood stars are Muslim.
5. Some of the most popular musicians are muslim.
6. One of the richest men in India is Muslim.
7. Everyone favorite tennis player is Muslim (only Muslims have problems with her).
8. The current Defence Minister and past Ministers were Christians. Many leaders of the Military are Sikh.
9. For thousands of years, Buddhists, Jains, Jews, Christians, Muslims, Sikhs, Parsis have found refuge among Hindus.
10. The number of Hindus killed in their own homeland by Muslims, Christians, and Sikhs is far greater than visa versa. This has been true for 1000 years now.
11. There are more Parsis in India than their home country Iran, now a muslim country.
12. The number of Hindus surviving in Pakistan has declined from 40% to 2%.
13. There is no other religion that, as a majority, has been so tolerant and pluralistic.
14. Religioius Hindus respect Buddha as the 10th avatar of Vishnu.
15. Hindus throughout the world worship in Sikh, Buddhists and Jain temples. Do Muslims and Christians?
16. Siddharth met Hindu sages early in his life who introduced him to the basic concepts of meditation, Atma, Karma, Dharma...
17. The list goes on.

Bakualaji, I am sure you won't have much to say about these facts. You will mention anecdotes and isolated incidents to counter these facts. The truth is that you are the one with intolerance for Hindus in your heart.
If you were born in a Hindu family, I feel sorry for you and your deep psychological self-hating issues. If you were not born in a Hindu family, learn to leave others alone and try to live a good life. Good Luck.

Mr. Shukla,

You make some excellent points about pluralism and tolerance in a society. The foundation of a society cannot be based on religions that are inherently supremacist like Islam and Christianiy. Beliefs that promote the idea of absolute supremacy of their own book,god, or prophet can only promote intolerance and its consequences.

I don't think Dr. Shukla was trying to let Joe Wilson off the hook, because he was wrong for his accusation against President Obama, but showing that people are complex individuals, and in fact he had done something very pluralistic in supporting the Diwali Resolution which passed in the US House of Representatives in 2007.

It is a myth that we have become more uncivil than before.

Could it be we humans were and still are a violent species?

How about annihilation of Ntaive Americans, the destruction of the Maya, Inca, and Aztec civilizations?

How about the lynching of Blacks in Mississipi in the previous centuries?

How about the Iraq war and the war in Afghanistan?

How about the genocide of Muslims in Gujarat, India in 2002?

How about the burning down of Christian churches in Orissa and Karnataka, India?

How about Mahmood Gahznavi invading India 900 years ago or so and looting the temples for gold?

How about Babar invading India more than 400 years ago and defeating fellow Muslim ruler, Ibrahim Lodi?

How about the Israelis driving away Palestinians from their homes and still killing them by the thousands or even hundreds of thousands?

How about the genocide in Sudan?

How about the genocide of Cambodia?

How about the genocide in Rwanda?

The list is very long and the space is limited.

First stop the violence and then talk about civility.

Sigh. . . .
Religion . . .
Mankind's Bane!

If the indent of the author is to instil God's fear among the dogmatists of America, he failed.

Hindus belief in pluralism is a joke of the century. Their hatred of other religions is well documented. Fewer are those like the author, who believe in genuine pluralism. The rest, the majority, in India and USA, love their fundamentalist attitudes, denigrating all other religions. Look what Saffron variety is doing to the Muslims, Christians in India. Need I say more?

...and I am Sid Harth

If self-professed Christians were to live their religion of selfless love toward everyone, as St. Paul of Tarsus and St. John the Evangelist (among others) teach [Love is kind...; God is love...; he who says he loves God and hates his brother is a liar...; do not lie...], and if those who think themselves better than old-fashioned Christians would try to prove it by behaving in a more-authentically-loving manner than old-fashioned Christians, wouldn't this world be a better place every day of the year!

Makes one wonder if Heaven will have any of the members of churches who tell us that if we don't believe exactly as they do, we are going straight to he**. If the majority of churches teach that, Heaven will be pretty darned empty.

Many religions have been hijacked by fanatics, and their voices are the loudest and most vociferous. That is a shame, as so many people want and need a religious staff on which to lean. But many of us have been turned off by the fanatical teachings and now no longer wish to be bombarded with political sermons and not the word of God.

As far as Joe Wilson is concerned, I was born and raised in the South and his behavior is totally unacceptable. His apology means nothing as it does not appear to be sincere and he is milking this 15 minutes of infamy for all it is worth with his small-minded constituents and followers.

In our seeking to "fight" fundamentalism, we are discovering how fundamentalist we really are as a nation. It's amazing what a war and recession will to to a nation's psyche. I suspect, I hope, that once the debris from the recession is gone and there has been substantial change in approaching the situation in Iraq, the health care system is been revolutionised and people start noticing the change, we will look back on these current days of such outright arrogance, hatred, and belligerance in shame.

What is needed is a change in the "default setting of democracy" (great phase by the way!), but also of the other 'Centers of Value' which encompass our life. Or else our supremacist beliefs, fears of difference and aversion to intelligent speech will surely desintigrate them for us.

We (I mean the whole population of the world) probably need to cultivate a pluralistic outlook on life now more than ever.

Aseem: Thanks for the thoughtful post. I share your view that popular rhetoric in our country seems to be gravitating to starkly contrasting poles - black and white, with gray lost in between.

I also agree that our country has always been characterized by debate - sometimes rancorous - as all healthy democracies are.

I don't, however, consider heated debate to the defining feature of American democracy. What defines us as Americans is that no matter how much we disagree, no matter how heated the debate becomes, we voluntary bind ourselves to the constitution and our identity as Americans as providing an inviolable framework for that debate and a mechanism for preventing the escalation of that debate.

On every occasion where the compact has been breached the consequences have been harmful to our social fabric and our strength as a country.

Pluralism is the lifeblood of America. The idea that we can debate as much as we want within the bounds of the law, but at the end of the day, return to our homes as neighbors and friends without fear of reprisal.

The rhetoric today endangers that crucial element of what it means to be American. The more we ratchet up our rhetoric, the more debate in America becomes like debate in most other parts of the world - dysfunctional and unsafe.

It has often been said that power corrupts. But it is perhaps equally important to realize that weakness, too, corrupts. Power corrupts the few, while weakness corrupts the many.
"Hatred, malice, rudeness, intolerance, and suspicion are the faults of weakness." [quotes added]
The resentment of the weak does not spring from any injustice done to them but from their sense of inadequacy and impotence. We cannot win the weak by sharing our wealth with them. They feel our generosity as oppression.
-- Eric Hoffer

Very thought provocative post. The words equality, freedom must be taken into account everytime...not to say across different races, religions and locations.

Aseem Shukla: You made a number of correct statements in your post, and you said them well. As you said, we have always been a divided nation and various people in past times have expressed their views in ugly divisive ways. I think the danger now may be a bit greater and more long lasting because of the media and because of the wide spread dogmatism found on both the left and the right.

Joe Wilson was wrong to do what he did, but he is not a bit repentant so an apology would be a joke.

You hit the nail on the head with the 24 hour news media and desire to capture that juicy sound bite...But while your comments about Joe Wilson are true, it still doesn't excuse him for his deplorable behavior. After years in Congress, he should know better, regardless of the circumstances.