Europe and Islam: beyond minarets

Yasser

all you see is hate. This is what your religion teaches you. I don't blame you for your ignorance, this is what your religion teaches you. I don't blame you for your hatred of Hindus, this is what your religion teaches you. I don't blame you for the civil war in Pakistan where good men that happen to be muslim are fighting the evil men that happen to be muslim, that is what your religion is teaching the islamists. I do not blame you for your simplistic view that what you want to be true is true, that is what your religion teaches you.

All religions teach some level of superstition. Yours is representing itself well in your posts. Your hatred, lack of reason, lack of sense of history, lack of awareness of current events, lack of empathy for the other are the superstitions created by the mono-ideology of righteous indignation supported by an evil god.

All religions have some sense of righteousness and mono-ideology. In all cases, it is usually wrong. But certain religions believe this mono-ideology is the ideal (christianity, islam, communism). That is the problem.

I know you can't face the evil within you. Some day God will take you to face it. But unlike the koranic god that would condemn you to hell for your hatred, I believ God will take you to face the evil within you to make you grow into a greater being. Then, I am sure, you will be worthy of the title sufi.

hariaum

Clearthinking is yet another hindu idiot, who pretends to be a muslim and thinks no one knows his real religion~!

TO ALL "MODERATE" MUSLIMS:

BE TRUE TO YOUR RELIGION AND STOP TRYING TO COMPROMISE WITH THE WEST AND INDIANS.

THE HOLY KORAN CH.9 VERSE 5: "SO WHEN THE SACRED MONTHS HAVE PASSED AWAY, THEN KILL THE IDOLATERS WHEREVER YOU FIND THEM, AND TAKE THEM CAPTIVES AND BESIEGE THEM AND LIE IN WAIT FOR THEM IN EVERY AMBUSH."
[9.14] FIGHT THEM, ALLAH WILL PUNISH THEM BY YOUR HANDS AND BRING THEM TO DISGRACE.
[9.29] FIGHT THOSE WHO DO NOT BELIEVE IN ALLAH.

FORTUNATELY, THE HISTORY AND THE CURRENT BEHAVIOR OF MOST TRUE MUSLIMS ESPECIALLY IN PAKISTAN IS CONSISTENT WITH THE KORAN. THE VIOLENCE IS NOT NEW AND IS NOT ACCIDENTAL. IT IS AT THE CORE OF OUR BEAUTIFUL RELIGION. GOD IS GREAT.
BIN LADEN, LASHKAR-E-TAIBA, TALIBAN, PAKISTANI ISI ARE TRUE TO THESE BELIEFS.

IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IN THE KORAN, JUST WALK AWAY. BUT REMEMBER THE FOUR MAJOR SUNNI MADH'HAB (SCHOOLS OF ISLAMIC JURISPRUDENCE) AND THE TWELVE SHI'A JAFARI MADHAB AGREE THAT A SANE ADULT MALE APOSTATE MUST BE EXECUTED.
THE KORAN SPEAKS FOR ITSELF. THAT IS WHY TRUE MUSLIMS FOLLOW THE KORAN AND KILL NONBELIEVERS.
A LOT OF ISLAMIC TERRORISTS LOOK QUITE PEACEFUL WHILE THEY KILL. FOR EXAMPLE, THE MUMBAI TERRORISTS OR DANIEL PEARL'S BEHEADER, ETC... LOOK QUITE CALM. THIS IS ALL THAT IS MEANT BY "RELIGION OF PEACE."
DO NOT BE FOOLED BY WESTERN PROPAGANDA.

PART II

"Y you are a sad person.
You reject quotations from your holy book, you reject statistics, you reject logic. It seems all you accept is that you are right and everyone else is a bigot."

You're losing your composure now old man, aren't you? I can never reject my Holy Book. Why do you always need to fall back on lies and false claims to make your point? Tell me do you even know that there's a context to everything that is written in the Holy Quran and the Shariah Law is developed taking that context into consideration. There have been fatwa's that have been issued by the most influential muslim scholars who say that apostasy is not punishable at all. The surah's of Quran you quoted are related to a phase in Islam which I do not have the time to speak on at length. You can do a bit of study on "Munafiq" or "Munafiqeen" if you're so interested in matters related to apostasy in Islam. There's an article on wikipedia on that topic as well. I asked you to cite me even a single instance of a muslim getting capital punishment for changing religion, you couldn't neither did you have the decensy to admit it. you're just a pathetic, little sad old man. I dont know if anyone ever took you seriously, thats why you spend so much time here trying to rile up people by spreading lies.

In your 3rd post I think you're trying to become a hindu missionary! Im not sure if people like you should be the face of hinduism, you'll do it more harm than good. Frankly I dont see what I can gain from having this conversation, writing these long responses. You just keep shifting goal posts after I expose each and every lie of yours. These hate propaganda pieces you cut paste fools no one, and only serves to expose your own lack of intellectual abilities. Look I am not here reform those that are hellbent on spreading hatred. I tried my best with you. You can keep believing all your hatefull lies all you want. If thats cathartic to you, take all the pleasure you want. I wont bother you again and id prefer you do the same.

Goodbye!

Yasser~!

"You did say that The Gita and Ramayana are full of holy wars."

Hari, I think you're getting on with age! You dont seem to know what it is you're writing and forget the questions you ask. Let me paste your actual question,

"Have you found a quote yet in the Gita or Ramayana of god hating? You did say that all religions have such ideas, didn't you"

Thats a complete falsehood you've made up, then you go on to make another claim and another lie that I failed to prove Geeta and Ramayna do discuss holy wars. I will admit that I havent read those books. Your motivation for reading the Quran is to take out parts -whose context you're unable to understand- and spread hatred of Islam. Thats never my intention so I dont skim through Geeta's and Bible's and Torah's to find out hatefull things in it. Others have done it and if taken out of context all religous books can be wrongly accused of condoning murder. But yes as a typical Pakistani kid, I too was exposed to a bit of hindu culture through your bollywood movies and doordarshan etc. while growing up. Thats why I quoted the battles of good and evil that are there in Bhagwat Geeta. I recall I quoted some instances where violence was condoned in those religous books because it was necessary. So it would be nice if you develop some decensy and dont put your own words in other people's mouth and then go on making false claims.

"You say I am biased, but when presented with data you say you have data but don't want to show it."

Your data has gutter value because it has no credibility. I asked you to cite credible sources you cited none. What kind of data do you want me to provide? There's loads of info on Hindu extremists violence all over the web. Im sure you're not denying that Hindu's have also indulged in extreme acts of violence against its powerless minorities.

If you agree that Kashmir should be free, I have nothing to argue with you.

"Your language ability is far greater in providing insults than reason. You really need to go to school."

My language ability is enough to lay bare all your prejudices and biases. I do not get paid to write this stuff so Im not much concerned about aesthetics. I am only here to take on all islamophobes whose falsehoods are not too hard to expose for anyone who has done even a little bit reading on Islam, because they have no legs to stand upon. By the way, I'll caution you about thinking too much of your own writing style. Whatever you do, dont try to make a living out of it. Because you dont care much about credibility of the stuff you write. Thats never a sign of good journalism. But yea.......yellow journalism does exist and it has an audience amongst bigots and hatemongers, so maybe there's even hope for people like you.

As to context, if the koran is only meaningful in the context of the 7 century, perhaps it is time for good muslims to set it aside.

May I suggest:

There is no god but god, and we people call it by many names.

The pilgrimage is holy and each person should seek to do so to whatever holy site their religion says.

There is no compulsion in religion and every person should be allowed to practice their religion anywhere they want to.

Men and women are equal. Each has the freedom to wear what they want, act how they want, and deny any religion they want.

No imam, priest, or pundit speaks for god for god is in the soul of each created thing (all fatwas, rituals, idols (including the kabaa), books, shall be seen as the creation of men, not holy writ.

There is no last prophet, no best book, no only path to god for all paths lead to god.

Do you think you could agree with these?
Do you have faith in god beyond books?

hariaum

Y you are a sad person.

You reject quotations from your holy book, you reject statistics, you reject logic. It seems all you accept is that you are right and everyone else is a bigot.

Never the less:

فِي سَبِيلِ اللّهِ فَإِن تَوَلَّوْاْ فَخُذُوهُمْ وَاقْتُلُوهُمْ حَيْثُ وَجَدتَّمُوهُمْ وَلاَ تَتَّخِذُواْ مِنْهُمْ وَلِيًّا وَلاَ نَصِيرًا
Transliteration Waddoo law takfuroona kama kafaroo fatakoonoona sawaan fala tattakhithoo minhum awliyaa hatta yuhajiroo fee sabeeli Allahi fain tawallaw fakhuthoohum waoqtuloohum haythu wajadtumoohum wala tattakhithoo minhum waliyyan wala naseeran
Abdullah Yusuf Ali They but wish that ye should reject Faith, as they do, and thus be on the same footing (as they): But take not friends from their ranks until they flee in the way of Allah (From what is forbidden). But if they turn renegades, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks;- 4:89

"In the wake of the 2005 London bombings, a survey in The Daily Telegraph gauged the views of the British Muslim community. The results were revealing.
6% felt that the bombings were fully justified.
24%, while not condoning the attacks, sympathized with the suicide bombers.
56% indicated they could understand why some people might behave that way.

Another study by British think tank Policy Exchange compared the growing radicalization of young Muslims to their parents and grandparents:
40% of Muslims between ages 16 and 24 prefer to live under Sharia Law, which is based on the Koran, compared to only 17% of those over age 55. (Punishments under Sharia law include beheadings, stoning, beatings and the severing of limbs.)
One in eight young Muslims said they admired radical groups such as al-Qaeda, who are prepared to “fight the West.”
36% believed any Muslim who converts to another religion should be put to death; only 19% among those over age 55 believe this.
Three-quarters of young Muslims believe that women should wear veils, compared to only one-quarter of those over 55. "

http://www.realtruth.org/articles/070629-003-mibatc.html

"The 1990 Cairo Declaration, or "Universal Declaration of Human Rights in Islam"
articles 19 and 22 reiterate Sharia principles stated throughout the document which clearly apply to the "punishment" -- death for so-called  "apostates" -- from Islam.

Fully two-thirds of a representative sample of 4,400 Muslims from Morocco, Egypt, Pakistan, and Indonesia desired the ultimate jihad conquest imperatives: to recreate a unified supranational Islamic state, or Caliphate, ruled by "strict application of Sharia." Pakistanis want strict sharia in every islamic country - 54%" http://www.worldpublicopinion.org/incl/printable_version.php?pnt=346

I suppose I am glad you are not the typical Pakistani Muslim, thanks for the greater liberality.

hariaum

Y you are a sad person.
You did say that The Gita and Ramayana are full of holy wars.

Yet, when asked to prove it you could not.

You say I am biased, but when presented with data you say you have data but don't want to show it.

You say I have a double standard. I don't care if you call some one a freedom fighter or a terrorist. First of all a nation is different than a person. They have different moral obligations (in fact less - a nation is allowed to kill). A terrorist is someone who targets civilians. Not the military or pramilitary that hides behind civilians, but the civilians are the target. Some Kashmiris are terrorists, some are not. Their action speak more than any label I can give. Likewise the Mukti army. I, personally, look forward to a free Kashmir. I just don't understand why it has happened in the part that Pakistan so valiantly conquered. I guess it is developing.

Your language ability is far greater in providing insults than reason. You really need to go to school.

hariaum

PART II

"Perhaps instead of looking at ingrown freedom fighters in Bangledesh, you could look at the million plus killed by your leadership."

Thats a nice turnaround smartass~! So the Mukti Bahni's were freedom fighters and the Kashmiris fighting for independence are terrorists! Thats quite a wicked double standard you've developed. Guess what you cant have it both ways. Either apologise for helping dismember Pakistan by supporting a separatist movement of a soveriegn country or accept whatever means Kashmiris deploy to get their freedom from a brutal occupier. Also kindly provide a credible source for your ratios. I highly doubt their veracity, specially coming from you.

"Have you found a quote yet in the Gita or Ramayana of god hating? You did say that all religions have such ideas, didn't you (sorry if I am misparaphrasing you but I'ld love to see the actual quote that supports you assertion)"

I've never made such a claim~!

"If the koranic approach to idolatry is only referrant to ancient practices, then is the koran no longer meaningful in other ways? I agree, it is."

Like a typical hatemonger, you have only read parts of Quran out of context that suits your argument. Quran is THE most influential book ever written because its the word of God. Makes absolutely no difference to us if you do not believe it. Quran is not only referrent to ancient practices. Quran talks about everything, that goes around us. It will be relevent as long as the world lasts. Cant say the same about your Ramyana's and Geeta's. I respect them because they are religous books of a such huge number of humanity. But it talks about mythical figures that had nothing to do with reality. And yet you destroyed a 16th century mosques calling it the birthplace of Rama even though most experts agree such a figure never existed.

"No dupliticity? The crime of apostasy is a capital crime but there is no cumpulsion in religion. Seems duplicitous to me."

Im glad you did a bit of research on Mukti Bahani. It will save you a lot of embarrasment if you atleast look into the background about everything you post. Specially on Islam. Because your information is pretty poor as always. Who says crime of Apostasy is capital punishment? How many muslims do you know of who have been hanged for changing religion? I do know that Christians who converted from Hinduism in Orissa and other parts of India are regularly persecuted by fundamentalist Hindus. Its a part of their election campaign and they gets loads of votes and money on this promise from their fellow hindus.

"In stead of attacking me, perhaps you could share how often the Saudi courts supported Hindu rights."

What do you mean by Hindu rights? Thousands of Hindu's are living prosperous lives in Saudi Arabia. They have excellent jobs with salaries they couldn't dream of back in India. If you are talking about building temples in Mecca and Medina, yes thats not allowed and I fully agree with that ban. Because it was ordered by the Prophet of Allah. You are allowed to make your temples at other places in Arabia. There aren't any Hindus allowed in the holy cities any way. so there's no point of building your temples over there. Are you also going to demand for temples in Vatican City and Jerusalem?

Farnaz,

I have to agree. Human beings are more important than any architecture.

The way to defend humans is to fight ideologies, to bring to light hatred, to inform the political process, to enhance human freedom...

I am not much informed about the ethnic cleansing you refer to. I apologize for my ignorance. Keep informing us.

I have to agree with you.

hariaum

In a very short while, Yemen will be officially Judenrein. Coming under increasing attack from violent Islamist gangs, Yemen's 350 remaining Jews are under heavy guard. These Yemeni Jews practice a unique form of Judaism, which will soon be lost to our culture.

They, like all Middle Eastern Jews, have been in the Middle East since long before Mohammed set foot upon the earth. The Jewish presence in Yemen dates back to the Solomonic era--3,000 years.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/11/24/AR2009112403898.html

I think that the plight of living human beings is a little more important than architecture. The murders of Jews in Yemen, however, is not of interest to OnFaith. Where is the outcry from Muslims? The protests?

Synagogues have been firebombed in Florida, France, Sweden, etc., for months, and where is OnFaith.

Jews are unsafe in the streets of Europe. Will, it, too, soon be Judenrein like the MIddle East?

Where is the outcry from Muslims? The end of a long, long culture is occurring in Yemen....The protests from Muslims? From OnFaith?

Consider the word "ideology." A certain discourse, or groups of discourses, develop to privilege this or that minority. These discourses, in our case, also serve fabulously powerful interests such as British Petroleum, which has gotten away with murder (literally) on US soil.

NONE of this is to say that we should not be concerned about discrimination against Muslims, of course. But a minaret is not a person. It is not the three hundred fifty Yemeni Jews facing exodus from a land in which they've dwelled for three thousand years.

How is it that we here nothing of these Yemeni Jews upon whom I posted below? They are the last of a three-thousand-year old civilization! With their deportation it will END. Just as the Egyptian Jewish culture died out. Just as Jewish culture all over the Middle East died out with ethnic cleansing. And of the Turkish Jews and Christians? The Egyptian Christians? (Egypt is all but Juedenrein now.) The Iraqi Christians (Iraq is all but Judenrein now.)

The firebombings of synagogues in French, Turkish, Sweden, Holland, Venezuela?

And closer to home: the synoguge attacks in Chicago, Florida, Los Angeles, New York City?

The outcry from Muslims in the media, such as we've seen from Jews regarding the issue of architectural design?!

Again denial.

So the Nazis went, England we won't harm you let us do our thing.

No data, well then I'll say I have data.

No truth, so I'll say I have truth.

If the koranic approach to idolatry is only referrant to ancient practices, then is the koran no longer meaningful in other ways? I agree, it is.

No dupliticity? The crime of apostasy is a capital crime but there is no cumpulsion in religion. Seems duplicitous to me.

In stead of attacking me, perhaps you could share how often the Saudi courts supported Hindu rights.

Perhaps instead of looking at ingrown freedom fighters in Bangledesh, you could look at the million plus killed by your leadership.

Perhaps instead of considering equivalent every crime, you could look at the fact that several million minorities (Armenians, Hindus, Indonesians) have been killed by muslims in this century. The only other groups to come close to that are christianity and communisms. That would place organized state and mosque killing at say 4 million / 1 billion muslims to maybe 10,000 killings / 1 billion Hindus. And in case you think I am biased, let us include Buddhists, perhaps 5K / 750 million or so. You think those ratios may say something about the religion's idea of compulsion?

You realize of course that Pakistani internet is censored to stop information that is against Islam, and the media is state controlled. You may not be getting the whole story (ie Bangladesh split off because it didn't want to be like Pakistan: military coup after military coup, nor controlled by people it did not want controlling it; the Indian support started much after the genocide had started).

Sorry, I am open to data and reason. Opinion is ok,and I will listen (because of your post I looked up Mukti Bahini and found the data I posted - thanks -and yes there are other references to that genocide by pakistan). But I am not going to simply accept your opinion as truth because you attack me. The greatest damage a religion can do is force you to stop being critical of it - to stop you from using you god given intellect and to leave you in superstition. Have you found a quote yet in the Gita or Ramayana of god hating? You did say that all religions have such ideas, didn't you (sorry if I am misparaphrasing you but I'ld love to see the actual quote that supports you assertion)

hariaum

Radical Islam: Terror in Its Own Words

Part-3b http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCTTAR_IeBA
Part-4 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYWu2v_FY_4
Part-5 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBgT35YO5dQ

Radical Islam: Terror in Its Own Words
Part-1 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fXFYH5ckDKQ
Part-2 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCUlslaXSzk
Part-3a http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GYASn6oXkUc

"by the way, I quoted the hate in the koran. I do not have a problem with you but I do point out the duplicity of your ideology. It is not bigotry to point out hate for what it is."

Nowhere in the Quran is the word Hindu metioned. So you need to chill out about this hate thing. Do you believe your religion is same as that of the idol worshippers of ancient Arab? There is no duplicity in Islam. If you study Islam with a clear mind, maybe you will yourself convert to Islam. There are no questions that are unanswered in Islam.

"yes your bigotry is coming out again. You have no data say you say you are not interested in educating me."

Why do I have to give you Data? I am not a hate preacher like you. I dont like bringing up hatefull things. I only cite these examples when some bigots try to single out muslims as agressors all the time even though we're under subjugation all around the world. Anyways.....did you even checkout Mukti Bahni?? They were a terrorist organization that terrorized bengali muslims and were supported by India. India helped those terrorists breaking all international norms to break Pakistan into two. I dont think you've even read that much history. So get back at me after you've done your research.

"You have no sense of history so you call nation states terrorist for attacking cowardly terrorists who hide behind the skirts of women."

AAh.....is that the best you can do? copy paste standard Israeli propaganda? What about those macheted wielding Hindu fanatics, who raped muslim women, pillaged their properties, burned hundreds ofthem alive and killed more than two thousand muslims in a carnage that went on for days. The police stood by and infact took part in killing muslims on most occaisions because thats what their CM told them. How many perpetrators of this crime were caught? There have been people who appeared on TV and proudly claimed that they ripped open bellies of pregnant muslim women and raised the child inside on their swords. Even they cant be arrested in India because you are so afraid of taking on your fanatics.

Really if you are interested in dialogue you need to do away with posting these hatefull propaganda pieces. I can provide you five more links for evey link you post. but whats the point?

Every year huge numbers of Arabs/Muslims from Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Kuwaitis, Syria, Egypt, Albania and dozens of other ethnic Muslim states who hate America swarm into the United States and add to the already increasing numbers of Arab/Muslim. And every year hundreds of mosques, which preach the extermination of all non-Muslims and the Islamization of America, are being added to the thousands already pointing their minarets skyward. Militant Islam is rapidly spreading its tentacles across America. One of the few Islamic moderates in this country, Muhammad Hisham Kabbani of the Islamic Supreme Council of America, estimated that "extremists" have taken over 80% of the mosques in the US, nearly all funded by Saudi Arabia. These extremists are working single-mindedly to turn America into an Islamic state, with the Koran as its foundation.

Many mosques, "Islamic Learning Centers" and Arab/Muslim Student Unions are distributing large numbers of pamphlets and leaflets attacking Judaism, Christianity and other non-Muslim religions and urging young Americans (esp. angry black Americans) to convert to Islam! Not surprisingly, a large number of African-Americans convert to Islam while in the prison systems! The National Islamic Prison Foundation, which coordinates a campaign to convert inmates to Islam claim an average of 135,000 such conversions per year.

These evil people exploit the freedoms given to them here in America and other democracies when their goal is to extinguish ALL freedom!

WAKE UP AMERICA!!! The threat is real and expanding!

France is faring no better. In 1945, there were 100,000 Muslims in France. A fifty fold increase since then now has them numbering 7 million out of a total population of 60 million! Muslims are already 25% of all French under the age of 21. If present birth trends continue, by 2030 a quarter of France's people will be Muslim, more than enough to determine who controls the national parliament and executive. The nuclear-armed French military is already 15 percent Muslim. And if the French-Muslim birth rate continues as projected, France will have a Muslim majority in less than 25 years! Another telling statistic is that although the Muslims are 12% of France's population, 70 percent of a total of 60,775 prisoners in France are Muslims! All of France's urban suburbs are being roamed by Muslim black African or Arabic gangs. One-fifth of all births in France are Muslims! Mohammed is one of the most common names next to Pierre! And Paris has the largest Arab community outside of the Middle East! This is a result of a lenient immigration policy, high Muslim birthrate and conversions. A very high proportion of French Muslims are in the underclass, that segment of the population that relies not so much on education and work as on welfare and predatory activities. In fact, over one thousand Muslim neighborhoods are under monitoring throughout France. Seven hundred of those Muslim neighborhoods are listed as "violent" and nearly 400 hundred are listed as "very violent." Violence ranges from rape (95% of rapists are Muslim), murder (85% of murderers are Muslim), theft and looting of cars (58% committed by Muslims) and street fighting to assault on teachers and civil servants.

In 1970 there were an estimated one-hundred thousand Muslims in the United States. Today, a mere 34 years later, the number is approximately 7-10 million! More than a quarter of a million people of Arab descent live in southeastern Michigan, making the area the second-largest Arab community outside the Middle East (after Paris, France). One frightening example of their prolific growth in American is Dearborn, Michigan. Of a total population of 90,000 Dearborn residents, 25,000 are now Arabs! And of all the Dearborn children under the age of 18, a full 58% are Arab children! Other developing centers of Arab/Muslim growth are Florida, Texas, New Jersey and California. God Bless America!

Sweden: Cold temperatures have not discouraged Muslim immigration. One out of every 22 Swedes are now Muslims and Islam is the nation's second largest religion. Farewell to the blue-eye, blonde hair Swedish beauties! Of the nearly 9 million people in Sweden, 400,000 are Muslim, leading to a drastic increase in anti-Semitic acts against Sweden's 17,000 Jews.

In Holland [The Netherlands], because of its total lack of anti-terrorism laws and its very high level of religious, cultural and judicial tolerance, Muslim-fundamentalist terrorist groups are allowed to thrive. The Muslims now number about 15% of the population. In 20 years' time the majority of Holland's under 18 year old children will be Muslim. In fact, 50 per cent of the newborns during the next twenty years will be Muslim! In Amsterdam, the most popular name for a newborn boy is Mohammed, and a majority of residents will be Muslim within 10 to 15 years. A finger in the dike won't work this time, folks!

Two million Muslims have soaked into Germany; one million into Italy; 200,000 in Spain; 500,000 in Belgium...1/10th its entire population and 1/4 of Brussels, its capitol city. Half of all babies born in Belgium are now Muslims! In total, 11,000,000 Muslims have saturated Western Europe! It now becomes clear just who is organizing and marching in Europe's anti-Israel and anti-American demonstrations!

In Italy, 95% of all rapists are Muslims. Eighty-five percent of all murderers are Muslims. Ah, such a wonderful religion of peace! What does the Pope and the rest of the Vatican Church have to say about this? Nothing! And what will the ordinary Italian say when, in ten years, Muslims will be the majority in Italy!!!

Even non-Muslim Christians under Palestinian-controlled areas ["West Bank" and Gaza] are not faring so well. Bethlehem was 70 percent Christian in the 1970s. Today it is close to 70 percent Muslim. The growing Islamization of Palestinian society makes Christians very uncomfortable. The size of the Christian Arab community in the West Bank may have fallen as low as 10,000, a drop of 50 percent since the mid-1990s.

Two of Europe's most legally tolerant regions...namely, the Dutch-language areas around Europe's most important west coast harbors, Antwerp [Belgium] and Rotterdam [Netherlands]... as the main breeding ground for Muslim-fundamentalist terrorist groups. Osama bin Laden 's organization even runs shipping companies as fronts from Amsterdam.

Something rotten in Denmark? How about the 200,000 Muslim immigrants trying to dictate their anti-Israel, anti-America and anti-Western values upon 5 million Danes? Even though they represent only 4% of the population, the Muslims consume upwards of 40 percent of welfare spending. They also account for 65-75% of the country's convicted rapists... with almost all victims non-Muslim Danes! Demographers have predicted that in just 40 years, one out of every three Danes will be Muslim. At this point, we're sure the Danes wish it were their Jewish population which was growing faster than rabbits on a hot tin roof. Jews are almost always model citizens! But the Danish Jews only number 6,000. Click here to see Danish Muslims in action!

WAKE UP AMERICA, while there is still time!

Other examples: Algeria is wracked by bitter fighting between Islamic Fundamentalists and the military. Death toll, 100,000 over a ten year period! Nigeria is in the midst of a war in which Muslims are murdering Christians and burning down their churches. Moslems against Christians. It doesn't take much to trigger an angry mob of Muslims. The Miss Universe Pageant was held there at the end of 2002. Muslim opposition to the pageant boiled over after a local journalist wrote that the prophet Mohammed would have approved of the contest and might even have wanted to marry one of the contestants. The ensuing riots in Kaduna left 220 dead and 400 wounded. In Kenya the Islamic Party has declared Holy War on the government. In Turkey the secular Muslim government is being challenged by the militant Refah Islamic Party. A civil war rages in the Sudan between Muslims in the north against the Christians in the south. Sudan's militant Muslim regime is slaughtering Christians who refuse to convert to Islam. In recent years, more than two million Sudanese have been killed out of a population of 35 million as its government used bombings and famine in its war on its own people.

Will non-Islamic nations be forced to build a "Giant Wall" as China did to keep out the Islamicized Monguls? Will the electronically-enhanced, concrete wall the Israeli I.D.F. recently erected keep out the Arab-Palestinian terrorists?

ISLAM: "Religion of Peace?"

Ten thousand Lebanese Christians were massacred in 1860s, while over 100,000 were killed in the Lebanese civil war of 1975-1990. Thousands of women were raped. That war was provoked by Yasser Arafat's PLO. Damour was once a thriving Christian Lebanese village until 500 (primarily young boys) were massacred and its population was expelled. This sort of violence and intolerance symbolizes treatment of Christians by Muslims in the Middle East. And, instead of an international arrest warrant Arafat received a Nobel Peace Prize!

Until a nation has embraced Islam, it is legally considered a battlefield (Dar-ul-Harb). Once it has converted to Islam (or all its citizens have been slaughtered or driven out), it then becomes a Land of Peace (Dar-us-Salaam). For those who think that the threat of Islam is only a phenomenon of the Middle East, think again! Although the Jewish State of Israel has been fighting a brave and fierce battle against Islam for over 50 years, there are many other "hot spots" in the world.

For example, the supreme Taliban's hard line leader in Afghanistan, Mullah Mohammed Omar, issued an edict that Buddhist statues insulted Islam. Apparently no one clued in Mullah Mohammed Omar that Islam is an insult to humanity! In any event, within days of his edict, all Buddhist statues, including a giant 5th century Buddha at Bamiyan carved out of sandstone (see photos), were destroyed as the "civilized" world could only stand by and watch it happen.

ISLAM: "Religion of Peace?"

Unfortunately, most people aren’t aware of Islam's murderous philosophy or they find it too monstrous to believe. However, a brief review of recent history and current events should make you doubters out there re-think your position. Two articles in the L.A. Times wrote about Muslims in Indonesia forcing Christians of all denominations to convert to Islam or get their throats slit. Thousands upon thousands of Christians were first converted and, according to rigid Islamic religious dictate, forced to undergo sexual mutilation of their foreskin or clitoris (with kitchen knives and razor blades) to make them conform to Muslim standards. Then they were are enslaved to their local Muslim chieftain. This was not some aberration of Islam but rather business as usual for all but the so-called "moderate" factions. This is Islam's sad legacy of murder, terror, lies and brainwashing to advance their cause of global conversion and subjugation... their so-called "personal struggle"... THEIR "Jihad!"

ISLAM: "Religion of Peace?"

While much of the world fixates on its usual obsession... setting up Jews for a second Holocaust, Islam is also hard at work laying waste to major portions of the world and preparing to impose Islamic rule over everybody and extinguishing their respective non-Islamic civilizations.

"Are you nuts," you might ask? " After all, is not Israel their primary enemy?" But to think that all Islamic issues spring forth from the Arab-Israeli conflict and that only Israel is a target shows a naivety that only invites disaster down the road! After Islam finishes off Israel, their "Little Satan," all the other larger Satans will meet up with the Sword of Islam! America has already seen the spillover of Islamic terrorism... the bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Beirut with the loss of hundreds of U.S. marines, the bombing of the U.S.S. Cole naval ship off Yemen, the 9-11-01 World Trade Center bombing in New York, and now the murders at Ft. Hood. Yet America has received but a small taste of what Islam has in store for them!

The world "ISLAM" is Arabic for "surrender" or "submission" to the will of Allah [God]. In the language of the Holy Qur'an, Islam means the readiness of a person to take orders from God and to follow them through. It is not derived from the word, "peace," as Muslims would have us believe! Look it up in any dictionary and see for yourself! Seeing a Muslim praying nearly flat on his face five times a day even projects the appearance of a master-slave relationship... a submission of sorts. And while the Muslim is submissive to Allah, all "non-believers" (Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Catholics, etc.) MUST submit to the Muslim. That's how THEIR God wills it to be!

ISLAM: "Religion of Peace?”

Islam is today being portrayed as a peaceful and tolerant religion. History proves otherwise! Though there were certainly periods of relative tranquility and tolerance, minorities and non-Muslims have always been prosecuted under Islam. In fact, Islamic ideology is based upon an intense hatred of the non-Muslim. For Muslims, there exist two kinds of non-Muslim enemies... kafir (non-believers in Islam) and ahl al-kitab (People of the Book). Kafir, such as Buddhists and Hindus, must either convert to Islam or face execution. People of the Book include Jews and Christians. These people need only submit to Muslim authority to avoid forced conversion or death. Although they may keep their original faith, their status becomes dhimmi (a "protected," yet inferior non-Muslim status). So instead of outright forced conversion or slaughter, the Christians and Jews would be allowed to remain somewhat unmolested as long as they acknowledged the superiority of the Muslim. However, as 100,000 dead Lebanese Christians and Israel's beleaguered Jewish population have discovered over the years, these guarantees have proved worthless!

just in case you think I am biased, another interesting read. But do note the relative numbers.

Thanks for the ref Y

http://www.gendercide.org/case_kashmir_punjab.html

This is Pakistan:

http://www.gendercide.org/case_bangladesh.html

Y

yes your bigotry is coming out again. You have no data say you say you are not interested in educating me.

You have no sense of history so you call nation states terrorist for attacking cowardly terrorists who hide behind the skirts of women.

You have no sense of objectivity so an attack on your religious intolerance is an attack on logic.

It seems to me a Pakistani who cares not for truth is certainly not interested in seeking a reasonable process, only rationalizing his perspective that all others are just as bad as he is. That is the ideology of hate. You would be at home in Mein Kompf.

hariaum

"But in the mosques and in every village and town, Muslim clerics are powerful figures, and many have backed militant political groups that have links to the Taliban.

"The destruction in America was God's warning in response to its anti- Muslim policies," Qari Hussain Ahmed Madani, a cleric in Peshawar, on the Afghan frontier, told worshipers. "A couple of attacks has turned America from a superpower to a zero power." http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/15/international/asia/15PAK.html

"When I speak against the Taliban and Osama, they harass me; so many times they harass me," Imam Mohammed Sherzad, the leader of Hazrat-I-Abubakr Sadiq mosque, said at his office in Flushing, Queens. "They say: `Why do you speak against Osama bin Laden? He is a good Muslim.' " http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/19/nyregion/19MOSQ.html

Today, Mufti Nizamuddin Shamzai, the leader of the Deobandi, an influential Pakistan-based school of fundamentalist Muslim theology, issued a fatwa, or binding decree, instructing his followers that the Pakistani government's cooperation with "non-believers" like the United States was inconsistent with Islam and must be opposed.

Only recently, Mufti Shamzai denounced the terrorist attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon as criminal and un-Islamic, and had criticized Mr. bin Laden for saying that he had admired the terrorists.

But today the mufti said in his decree, according to an unofficial translation, "It is un-Islamic for any Muslim country or Muslim armed forces to be part of any military expedition launched against the Islamic emirate of Afghanistan. Similarly, it is un-Islamic to provide ground facilities, intelligence or other resources."

The cleric told his followers, who number in the tens of thousands in Pakistan alone, that any Muslim ruler who supported "non-believers" attacking Afghanistan would forfeit their right to rule. "What happened in America is deplorable," the unofficial translation of his edict said, "but the way America is retaliating without justification and solid proof could lead to a third world war."

If Muslims were attacked by non-believers, the mufti said, a fight against this assault would be "mandatory," and amount to "a state of general declaration of jihad," or Islamic holy war." http://www.nytimes.com/2001/09/18/international/18CND-PAK.html?pagewanted=2

http://www.city-journal.org/html/eon_9_11_02fd.html So that would be 1000 / 1 billion.

Then of course there was the Armenian Genocide, then the Hindu genocide in Bangladesh (participated in by the Pakstani army)

by the way, I quoted the hate in the koran. I do not have a problem with you but I do point out the duplicity of your ideology. It is not bigotry to point out hate for what it is.

If you don't want dialogue. then stop.

hariaum

Hari,

I do not jump to conclusions. I take ample time before forming my opinion and declaring it. I wasn't just referring to your last post. I've read several ofyour posts. Almost all of them are anti-islamic. Thats probably cathartic to you. But yea I do stand by what I said. You ARE hatefull and bigoted and frankly id prefer you not post to me again~!

Your logic is flawed! You tell me what percentage of muslims celebrated the 9/11 terrorism? The video of that one woman handing out sweets was a fake one. She could be handing out those sweets to celeberate her sons wedding. How do we know they are celebrating 9/11? Is there any audio in that video to support your claim? Similarly some South American countries also reportedly celebrated those attacks. Even in America people who aren't muslim have been said that 9/11 was justified. But you prolly wont even know of them. You are so consumed in your hate for one faith that you will ignore the digressions of all other faiths. And pray tell what would you find more disgusting, burning effigies or bombing a country to smithereens?

By whose consensus are you claiming that Pakistan harbored Al-Qaida? A Hindu Indian claiming Pakistan is on the wrong side in the war on terror! I'd dismiss the charge for lack of credibility of the accuser anyway. You say Pakistan harbours Kashimiri Terrorists. I say thats a load of bull. To me the real terrorists are the 700,000 Indian troops and paramiltary (the largest concentration of security forces in the world) who rape, torcher, kill and maim Kashmiris everyday and have been occupying their land for 60 years in defiance of UN resolutions.

"No doubt the US and India have pursued their interests their as well. But do those nations harbor terrorists that have launched attacks on Pakistani soil against civilians and the Pakistani state - any data, I'ld be happy to learn."

Im not here to educate you or provide you data. You ask too many immature questions for my liking anyway. Do some reading on the role CIA has played in bringing down democratically elected governments and supporting dictators throughout Asia, Africa and South America. When you're done with that, do some research on Mukti Bahni. Which country gave those terrorists most support. Then get back to me. However id prefer you dont. This all seems like a waste of time~!

Y

You are again jumping to hatred.

I argued that AS was saying dialogue was needed and you were being too specific in ref to which muslims he was referring to.

I argued logically that the claim of bringing about a result on a group by a series of actions is valid regardless of the groups identified.

You took logic as hatred. That is your own hatred coming out. If you have a logical argument then please present it. Just by calling people who point out facts bigots does not change the facts. The more you shout bigot, the more you prove your own bigotry.

We've argued before about % distinctions and absolute distinctions. Good that you are thinking that now. So what percent of Christians, Muslims, Hindus, Buddhist felt that the attack on the Twin Towers was justified. Let's see, which group was it that celebrated in the streets? What percent of Buddhists, Hindus, Christians, or Good muslims went out in the streets and burned effigies of Mohammed when the islamists blew up statues of the Buddha in Afghanistan.

By the way, the consensus is that Pakistan harbored the Taliban and Alqaeda until those groups attacked the Pakistani state (like they harbored the Kashmiri terrorist and the Mumbai terrorist until they were forced to confront their duplicity). Pakistan can become part of the solution, but it has been a part of the problem (particularly the ISI). No doubt the US and India have pursued their interests their as well. But do those nations harbor terrorists that have launched attacks on Pakistani soil against civilians and the Pakistani state - any data, I'ld be happy to learn.

hariaum

Hariaum,

Read my post carefully, I said I agree with the overall conclusion of the Author's argument. So what if he didn't mention Switzerland? This thread is about the Minaret's issue. And yes and overwhelming majority of muslims reject the the message of Osama bin Laden. Only a cynic would believe otherwise and its always hard to convince those, plus I am least bothered about their opinions.

You say people in the Islamic World said America brought 9/11 upon itself? You're pretty slick 'eh? How many people? Did you ever did a count? How many Muslim Countries supported the Taliban? How many sided with the US? The 3 that did use to support Taliban immidiately withdrew their recognition of Them. Pakistan, their staunches ally provided US the most vital support in occupying Afghanistan. Really you prove my initial analysis of you everytime you post here. You see everything Islamic through the prism of your hatred! I bet had the Swiss banned the Hindu Temples you wouldn't be looking for justifications of the reason for their xenophobia.

I don't see the AS is saying that (there is no mention of Swiss Muslims in particular). I think he is saying that there is a need for dialogue to resolve the distrust on both sides(he does not say one is more legitimate distrust than the other).

When the Twin Towers came down, people in the islamic world said that America brought it upon itself. The argument is more valid that islam brought this ban upon itself - no one was killed.

Or since you feel I am illogical:

Group A causes Group B to do X
Group B causes Group C to do Y

these are logically equivalent.

hariaum

Dear Aseem Shukla,

One cant disagree with the overall conclusion of your essay, however their are minor errors in your thesis.

Firstly, the referendum was held in Switzerland a country with only 10% practicing muslims who are as integrated into the Swiss society as is humanly possible. Most of them are muslims who escaped genocide at the hands of Serb Orthodox Christians. They have been detached from the muslim base for so long that religion has become just a tag for them (although a very costly one~!). So to blame the Swiss muslims for the xenophobia of the locals is both disingenous and unjust.

Secondly, although Idi Amin was a muslim despot the fact is that he didn't discriminate much between muslims and hindus when it came to taking populist decisions. He ousted all Ugandans of South Asian heritage and that included a sizable number of South Asian Muslims as well.

Having said that muslims are not perfect and we never claimed to be so. But this is a clear violation of basic human rights. No religous minority deserves the kind of public humiliation that the swiss have meted out to those poor muslims effectively telling them thay aren't welcome. So yea.....criticize muslims where they falter, but for the sake of equality please do not try to divert the criticism of the other side when muslims are wronged by declaring muslims equally responsible~!