A mosque, a temple and a court verdict in India

Aseem
I always enjoys your well written and well though out post. Please ignore the barrage of constant comments of some individuals that don't want to see the facts and listen to reason. Keep up the good work.

Hello Tavison, Speaking of Hyderabad traffic. It is an absolute killer. I was there just recently about this time in July of this year and several times last year. In fact any more I need an escort to take me to places so much has changed.My family moved to Masab Tank area, from Birla Mandir area, used to be owned by a Parsee gentleman and was called Shapoorwadi, after him. No body in HYD will recognize that name any more. I can still navigate to Nampally & Secunderabad Station and the Abids & Koti areas. Beyond that I am a Ferengi myself. The lack of street names and one way streets do not help any. I am sure you have visited the sites and sounds in HYD, like Char Minar, & Golconda fort. See if you can visit Falaknuma Palace. I have not seen it myself, but if you have any connections you should try. My mom used to sing its praises.

Hello Tavison, i was actually in Hyderabad on the days leading up to and after the Mosque itself was razed. As I recall there was some apprehension in Hyderabad, but no huge incidents in the aftermath. Had a bit of warm arguments with my friends and family, which as a matter of fact included both Hindus and Muslim. As would be expected the mixed discussions were lot more tepid, a bit more on the eggshells. That said, back then as today India needs neither more temples or mosques.

That clearly was a time when BJP was trying to polarize for electoral advantages, as you must be acutely aware. The seeming calm is due to two reasons one is what you alluded, also the BJP has played the hand before, and passage of time.

For all the faults and downright vile stuff that goes for Hinduism (which Ms. Farnaz has mouthed eloquence on this thread and others), religious bigotry is not enshrined in any of the scripture. There are several reasons for that few of them are:
1) Since the time the Aryans had moved from steppes of Eurasia for a few Millennium they had been quite sheltered.
2) It is during this period that the Hinduism blossomed or evolved. In other words it had faced very little competition.
3) Consequently it did not have much need to exhort the adherents to unite. So you do not find passages of out-group hostility, that is par for the course in the so called Abrahamic religions (my view is there was really no Avram character at all)

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However, the Hindu bigotry towards is limited to Muslims and to a lot lesser extent against Christians. Rarely do you hear the Hindu bigots appealing to scripture for justification. Also the hostility towards Christians does not make any distinction amongst the various stripes. In fact a lot of Hindus find scriptural exoneration for British rule, including my Grand Mother. Presumably Rama grants the right to rule over India to mythical bird Jatayu's progenies. As a reward/gratitude for fighting Ravana. The Europeans are regarded as the progenies of Jatayu.

Coming to the non-scriptural reasons being a deep sense of 1000 year humiliation under Muslims and the aggressive under the sword an pillaging that went on. Also the forced partitioning of the country due to the intransigence of Muslim clerics. As a matter of fact there were a large number of the Muslim Intelligentsia was not for partition.

Historically speaking there is recognition by the most that there had been a good side to the British rule. It took India out of the morass of fatalism. And a lot of appreciation introduction of the modern sciences, and education. There is appreciation of the fact that a lot of infrastructure build out and little or total absence of the destruction of Hindu icons under British.

Of course the Hindu bigots only see theirs as only a reaction to Muslim bigotry and arrogance. I think there is greater amity as the muslims see it isn't as bad as they thought 60+ years ago and as they see how failed a state Pakistan i

Secular,

As a Hydrabadi, how much do you think the more restrained reaction to the decision is due to massive economic opportunities not available in the early 90s. Studies show that disproportionate unemployment in young men lead to political strife and worse. I guess, your less likely to riot if your stuck in traffic coming home from a good job and looking forward to seeing your wife and kids.

I got here in the late 2000s after the TDP had made its IT infrastructure push so I don't know what Hyd was like before I got here. Many of the people I've hired are from far flung villages and so can't compare current Hyd with past Hyd any better than I can. I do know though that since I've gotten here the difference is immeasurable. I've almost given up riding my bike as traffic has gotten so bad.

There is more peace and less name calling in Ayodhya between Indian Hindus and Muslims than there is on "On Faith". Who is the teacher and who is the student.

P.S. Farnaz, I take an aggressive stance with "moderate" Muslims when they write patronizingly about "interfaith" dialogue. At this moment in history, the onus is on the self-proclaimed "moderates" to concentrate their energy on "intrafaith" dialogue within the Muslime community. There's a lot more at stake for the world in dealing with Islamic extremism and terrorism. A very real issue. For example, the problem in Iran/Persia has not really been interfaith. The Zoroastrians and Jews in Iran don't really need lectures on how to get along. The Muslims need the lectures on how to be tolerant. This is the distinction that Muslims need to understand. Are Daisy Khan, Imam Rauf, and Sharif El-Gamal truly "moderates" - only they know in their heart. But have New Yorkers lived in peace with Muslims for decades? Yes. Do New Yorkers need lectures from Muslims like Daisy Khan about tolerance near the 9/11 site? No. So who needs the lecture from whom.

Does a "moderate" muslim believe that their god (Allah) is the one and only true god? Yes. Does this attitude lead to peace, tolerance, and pluralism? No. Hmmmm. Is that really moderate?

Should the "ground zero mosque" debate be all-or-nothing and winner-take-all? Should their be compromise that is fair? Is their something to be learned from the Hindus in India? Dr. Shukla said yes. What do others think? Oh. Now it's too late.

"Tavison":

LOL. You had me going there, but only for a moment, "Tavison." NB, I'm a linguist.

I'll pass this time, but this is the second time you've done this. I trust there won't be a third.

Posted by: FarnazMansouri2
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Oh! it takes me back to my days at high school in Hyderabad the principle Bro. Stanislaws who used to give such stern warnings to the impudent. Yes, Yes the Latin "Nota Bene" and the stern warning "I trust there won't be a second time". I would love to watch the Head mistress of the "On Faith" blog enforce the discipline on her wards.

Btw., Ms. Tavison, one does not expect to find on the web a site such as this, devoted to religion and politics, a hands off policy when it comes to one belief system.

One does not expect to find an essay suddenly disappearing or deleted should its author decide to take a tepid stance on caste.

That, Ms. Tavison, would be worse than bad journalism. It would be grossly unprofessional, and one wouldn't expect it of someone like Sally Quinn.

"Tavison":

LOL. You had me going there, but only for a moment, "Tavison." NB, I'm a linguist.

I'll pass this time, but this is the second time you've done this. I trust there won't be a third.

ClearThinking:

I'm not going to go through this with you ad nauseum. Caste is a very real and widely ignored problem. Part of your post merely repeats what I have posted previously.

I will tell you this. It is a far more serious matter to have someone like Secular, a co-national of yours, endlessly blogging antisemitic garbage on the threads of rabbis, referring to Abraham as "pond scum" than it is to have people like me and others concerned about caste and the horrors in Kasmir.

Your co-national makes historic community several times a week on several threads with committed racists. He has been given bibliographies not only by me, but by others. He has been asked to lay off more than once.

Why don't you talk to him, if you are concerned about knowledgeable posts?

This is it, ClearThinking1. I've told you several times that I do not approve of converting the Dalit; I never have. Neither do I approve of bigots who can dish it out, but can't take it, in this case, Secular.

But, remember, ClearThinking, you have more than once posted very offensive material on Islam. Dr. Shukla has even offended me on Pakistan!

I think legitimate criticisms are valid, but they must be legitimate and those who make them must be willing to take them when they come their way.

Farnaz,

I will engage you one more time on this. You wrote, it does not "speak well for the religion you are constantly touting."

Everyone who has visited or lived in India knows that there is a serious problem with discrimination, exploitation, and poverty. Nobody denies this. Your problem is that you simplify this complex problem and turn it into a Hindu problem and demand that Dr. Shukla respond (which he has in writing & in charitable action). You are mimicking the strategy of the Christian groups like the Dalit Freedom Network whose agenda includes undermining Hindu society and creating divisions so proselytizing is easier.

Hindus, Hindu leaders, and Dr. Shukla's Hindu American Foundation are well aware of this. They have also been unequivocal in denouncing caste discrimination.

I thought you had a good understanding of the world's religions, but your confusion about Hinduism (Sanatana Dharma) is disappointing. So a few points:

1. Caste discrimination is a very real social problem. It exists among Hindus, Sikhs, Christians, and Muslims in India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh. Do you understand why this is?

2. So it is not a simplistic "Hindu" problem.

3. Caste is an English word derived from the Portuguese word "casta". There is NO one single word in Sanskrit or Hindi that correlates to the word "caste". There are two concepts: varna and jati. Curious?

4. How could such a defining concept like caste not have a clear correlate in Sanskrit if this is a simple "Hindu problem". Think about this. There is a serious problem with misunderstanding and misrepresentation on this issue. I can't go into a detailed explanation on this blog.

5. Hindu texts like the Vedas, Upanishads, and Bhagavad Gita are clear that caste is not simply hereditary, but depends on an individuals characteristics and tendencies (gunas)

6. Bhagavad Gita Chapter 18:41 - "The four-fold division of human labor (Varna - Brahmin, Kshatriya, Vaishnya, Shudra) is based on the qualities inherent in people's nature or their makeup (gunas)." - NOT by birth

7. The concept of "guna" is central to Hindu philosophy. Can't explain it here.

8. Some of the most respected and important sages of Hinduism like Veda Vyasa (authored Mahabharata) and Valmiki (authored Ramayana) were a Shudra who gained knowledge.

9. A recent President of India, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court Justice and even the Chairman of the Constitution Drafting Committee in 1947 were Shudras.

10. It would be great if no one had to the "dirty jobs" in India, but this is a nation still trying to develop basic infrastructure like sewage systems or running water. So, improving the life of the downtrodden is not easy. This does not justify social discrimination. it is wrong and is being corrected - legally, quotas & reservations, etc.

Theres a lot more to be learned about "caste" issues, especially if one sincerely wants to address the problems - not just create divisions.

FarnazMansouri2,

I hope you take to heart what I have to say.

Who is your audience? You will never get clearthinking1 to agree with you and you clearly already believe what you believe, so why say it? If the goal is to get someone like me who agrees you point out a valid concern and want to hear more from you on the subject, you are failing, miserably. So who is your audience?

Why post here? This is clearly a topic that has hundreds of thousands of words written on it and many sites are devoted only to it, so why post here?

The reason to post here is because you are less likely to be confronted by experts in the issues you are proselytizing. When you do you paint them boldly and call them names. And, anyone who falls for your trap is being foolish, so I will not. Please stop helping the cause. It has enough problems on its own.

ClearThinking1 (LOL) types:

Farnaz has become a self-righteous mouthpiece for a Christian organization motivated by proselytization & conversion called the Dalit Freedom Network. Farnaz is Jewish but seems to have bought the propaganda from this Christian organization hook, line, & sinker. She confuses Dalits, untouchables, harijans, shudras, and scheduled caste. Inaccurate numbers and false & unfair accusations against Dr. Shukla have become the norm.
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Wrong on all counts. I have no interest in proseltyzing. The web site I think you refer to is only one of the many links I've posted--in fact, I've posted several on this thread--including one that links to a list of the scheduled castes. I've also posted a link for the blogger you are addressing.

"Dalit" is, in the US, a cover term that is being used by a number of connected groups on behalf of the most oppressed. Where have you been?

Bloviating, pontificating, and vilifying does not become you nor does it speak well for the what the religion you are constantly touting has to offer.

You have done better than this.

clearthinking1,

yeah, two good points. First, while people here will fight tooth and nail for the right to a temple, mosque, or graveyard, my commute takes me past a graveyard that sums up so much of my religious experience in India.

The graveyard is adjacent to a Christian graveyard. It has Muslim graves and Hindu graves for those few Hindus who get buried. in the middle are two funeral pyres for burning Hindus. So this is very much like southern India, a hodge podge. But, when the little bridge that leads to Hi-Tech gets filled with traffic, the graveyard becomes a shortcut and people will simply ride their bikes right through. I live in Kukatpully by the way.

Second, yes there is a growing number of Firenghi in Hyderabad but this has more to do with the end of the license walla and other reforms than anything else.

Ramazan, or is it Ramzan (here it is not Ramadan), ended not that long ago so I had some excellent Halleem as well as all the other food you mentioned.

I watched Christiane Armanpour's very frightening discussion regarding should Americans fear Islam. I think the clear answer is no. But, it is not Muslims I fear or Hindus or Christians. It is religious fundamentalists of all types. In the past in India they were winning and now I would like to think the moderates are.

Regarding who is happy with the decision, I think we are all still holding our breath and hoping the peace will last.

God Willing.

Tavison,

The peaceful resolution in Ayodhya raises many important questions but also teaches many important lessons. This is very relevant in America because of the ongoing "ground zero mosque" debate. America is new to Islamic terrorism and how to deal with Muslims within society. India has much more experience in dealing with this difficult issue.

Instead of discussing and learning from this peaceful and reasonable resolution, people have hijacked Dr. Shukla's blog to spew the usual anti-Hindu agenda. This actually consists of the usual 2 culprits, farnazmansouri2 & yasseryousufi.

Farnaz has become a self-righteous mouthpiece for a Christian organization motivated by proselytization & conversion called the Dalit Freedom Network. Farnaz is Jewish but seems to have bought the propaganda from this Christian organization hook, line, & sinker. She confuses Dalits, untouchables, harijans, shudras, and scheduled caste. Inaccurate numbers and false & unfair accusations against Dr. Shukla have become the norm.

Yasseryousufi is a Pakistani American Muslim who is educated but also has a destructive anti-Hindu agenda. For example, yesterday he posted "Only Hindu fundamentalists and hindu terrorists are happy over this judgment." I bet hundreds of millions of Indian Muslims & Hindus are happy over this judgement, but our two bloggers are quite distressed.

This is another missed opportunity to discuss and learn. You wrote "what is the statute of limitations for redressing grievances when people become free of an empire?" For a billion Hindus, Lord Rama and his birthplace are highly significant. Ayodhya being the birthplace is not debatable in their minds. Whether the particular site is the "real" birthplace is not resolvable or relevant.

The best thing is to compromise and move on. The all-or-nothing approach historically taken by Muslims and Christians has been a source of much conflict and brutal violence. The Hindus have lived in peace with Buddhists, Jains, Sikhs, Zorastrians, and Jews for thousands of years. Living in peace with Muslims has always been a unique challenge, and the history is disheartening. Violence is not only present where Islam is in contact with nonMuslims but also within Islamic states like Pakistan & Afghanistan. In America, the struggle with this issue is just beginning.

Farnaz, writes

"You need to get a serious grip on your acrimony, . . .

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It is for that reason that I told you I would no longer reply to postings from you."
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Looks like at least sometimes "you don't mean what you say, perhaps sometimes you don's say what you mean". I just never know when it is the other way. That is "you mean what you say and say what you mean" Just as you tell me again and again and again about OT, that it doesn't mean what it say and some times doesn't say what it means. See I am an engineer by training, we are brainwashed at a tender age to say what you mean and mean what you say so the specifications and design are crystal clear. Perhaps I should unlearn that when I am reading your comments. I try but the correlation coefficient isn't -1. It is negative all right but never close to -1. I Can deal with, +1 or -1, but never 0 > x > -1, my apologies. Truly my apologies.

Yasser, I will tell you an anecdote. I used to work with a Pakistani guy, some time between the skirmishes in Chittagong and Kargil. We have become good friends. I think one of his close relatives was a Colonel or major general in the army, back then. He used to tell me how every army officer used to think that any day they would be moving the capital city to Delhi. That apparently got big shock after the skirmish in Chittagong. He used to tell me all kinds of tales of braggadocio he used to hear. End of 1971 was indeed a shocker to him. The next came when he came over to US and started to meet Indians both Muslim and non-muslim. He said he had done a lot of introspection and finally became an atheist, as a matter of fact even before me - much before me.

Yasser have you ever considered, why is it that in the last 63 year why Pakistan had so many Khaki regimes? Why is the army a key player in the Pakistani Public Policy? Tell me how many countries in the last few centuries, rest of the world had looked up to which had military dictatorships or where the Army is the supreme arbiter in all the political decisions? This despite the army had lost half the country due to its stupidities? It happened in Argentina in 1982, after that it was sent back to barracks and was never let out of there. Isn't Argentina better for that today less than 30 years later. You had mentioned in one of the threads how you hate Zia for totally screwing up the country. Do you really think it was on right track under Benazir, or Nawaz, or Parvez, or Zardari. since Zia? Have you known of any other country where the head of the state is called various hings like Mr. 10%? I take that back, except for Silvio Berlusconi. Speaking of Nawaz, why do you think Nawaz was read the riot act in the white house on July 3rd 1999? Why don't you read the link below:

http://alaiwah.wordpress.com/2008/07/04/kargil-nawaz-sharif-knew-about-it/

Think what you may Yasser, as Tavison alluded to, and I said atleast a third of the planes going to Hyderabad from aboard are filled with people of all colors and nationalities. Why do you think it is Hyderabad, Andhra Pradesh and not Hyderabad Sindh? Why do you think almost any where in the commercial centers of the world when you hear of Hyderabad, there is no doubt they are not talking about Hyderabad Sindh? Why do you think Field Medal award ceremony was not held in Sindh, but in Andhra Pradesh? Ponder over that I may be everything you accuse me of but that does not change the situation that I just painted, does it?

Secular (LOL) writes:

It always degenerates to this kind of peripheral topics. One commentor or the other gets of on another topic with no bearing on the title. Rather than attacking the original coments they resort to personal attacks because the original comments hurt their feelings. I am guilty of attacking back.
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You need to get a serious grip on your acrimony, hypocrisy, and bigotry. On blog after blog, essay after essay, week after week, regardless of topic, you inevitably attack Tanakh, of which you know nothing, and Quoran, of which you know the same.

Your irrelevance is mind-boggling. I have given you lists of web sites, articles, books so that if you want to address the Tanakh with some literacy you might do so.
Ditto, the NT, which you fearfully ignore.

Regardless of how polite one addresses your knowledge-deficient posts, you reply viciously. It is for that reason that I told you I would no longer reply to postings from you.

Perhaps, most hilariously, Madam, when one answer you in kind, the only kind of answer you seem able to grasp, you whine and cry that you have been offended.

I hope you begin to learn something from t his thread, my unfortunate friend, and that is, that there is more than a plank in your eye: there is a forest. So it is and has always been with tribalists.

What goes around comes around, and some of us are around. Right now.

Tavison:

Re: Your post

You say you'd be interested in interesting points. IN this, I would think you are a member of a rather large club.

However, the matter of scheduled castes, it is difficult to know where to begin, when one doesn't know one's audience and is dealing with an oppressed population of more than 250,000,000 people. Although there has been much hand-ringing by the UN and India has made some progress, the fact is that there is gold in them thar Indian hills, and, hence, as Dalit bloggers have noted here, the plight of the Scheduled Castes is all but ignored. Admittedly, with two years of conferences on Untouchability, change may be in the offing, but it is coming very late. Below, you will find a decent summary of the situation as of 2007. If you are interested, I'll provide other sources--not on the web.

As for Kashmir, what is there to say. I'd always thought WWIII would begin in the Middle East, always argued with my Pakistani and Indian friends that Kashmir was not a likely site for the war to end all wars. The links I post below, should give you a clue. One cannot talk about a temple when whole regions are on fire.

http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:DH3RKz4gSRIJ:www.unhcr.org/refworld/pdfid/4b6fe22ed.pdf+scheduled+caste+list+in+india+united+nations&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESgx9t2_o61F-dp4nZruLud945XqP7_tKFCKerBFcFb-mBMNhsiudzkjDdIxOJuRuxp4gy4Vwjdw8_oMHtB7VN-y6_38jOy1QyNlaQMat7PzLnUYw7sqU7gk91mVnzcasgJAOn9T&sig=AHIEtbSvdEG7GSNf37Ln51hZgbWiXbkPUA

Secular,

Airheads like you believe they have to shout at the top of their voice to make a point. Needless to say they end up with egg on their faces more often than not. You are in serious need of some education. Those BJP written history books of India has infested your brains with even more goober than there already was.

First War B/w India and Pakistan 1948:

It was fought soon after independence when India had criminally stopped finances that were to be transferred to Pakistan as per agreement, so Pakistan was seriously cash stripped. A bunch of tribals fought with Indian Army and liberated a third of Kashmir. Its known as Azad Kashmir. The Army at the time was led by a White man from England, who refused to advance further otherwise the whole of Kashmir would have been freed from the wretched rule of India. 1-0 to Pakistan!

Second War B/w India and Pakistan 1965:

Indians attacked Pakistan after getting some royal a$$ whipping from China couple of years back. The Indian Generals boasted of having evening tea at the Lahore Gymkhana. Indians did moved into Pakistani territory in the fog of the night but before long not only were they repelled but by the time war ended Pakistani Army was several miles inside India. Your information is as usual incorrect. US had no or rather minimal part to play in this war. Indian Prime Minister went to USSR and begged Moscow (its erstwhile ally) for help. The ceasefire was signed in Tashkent. It was a huge scandal in Pakistan. The Foreign Minister ZA Bhutto was furious that Ayub Khan gave away the war booty so cheap without getting Kashmir in return. So he formed PPP and the rest is as they say is history. Result, draw!

Third War B/w India and Pakistan 1971:

India once again broke all international norms by actively supporting a terrorist movement and attacking Pakistan. Pakistan was weakened by the mis-management of Politicians in East-Pakistan resulting in the Bengali's demanding freedom from Pakistan. Result, we lost that war.

So there you have it! There never was a fourth war. No one declared war during Kargil. It was a border skirmish, like the one that goes on everyday in Siachen. We believe we took out hundreds of your soldiers in a mission that required a minimum amount of troops taking a strategic position on the mountain top and from there basically indulging in a duck shoot. Indians have their own version. So in the end, its still 1-1 with Pakistan having slightly better of the Draw.

See you learn't something new today. Pakistan, seven times smaller in size than India has never been frightened of India. I dont believe India can dare to attack Pakistan now. We're a Nuclear state with a missile program miles ahead of India. Most of your missiles go poop in testing.

Tavison, I am with you on this:

There's a lot of complaining how nobody can stay on point, but is this article about Dalits? The plight of Indian women? Anti-Semitism?
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It always degenerates to this kind of peripheral topics. One commentor or the other gets of on another topic with no bearing on the title. Rather than attacking the original coments they resort to personal attacks because the original comments hurt their feelings. I am guilty of attacking back.

That said, it is indeed a shame that in late 20th century and 21 century Indians are still embroiled in these silly squabble about Mosque & temple thing. As though there aren't enough of them. You have seen the minor temples and mosques rising up along the city pavements in Hyderabad. While at the same time old decrypt cemeteries, etc being treated as public lavatories. Same is the case in the US. As evident from the New York Mosque. Because of its high profile controversy, now other mosques across the country, which otherwise would have had smooth sailing, have run into opposition.

Anyway, I am glad to see that about a third or so seats in the planes to India are filled with non-indians. I had never even that was possible say even 15 years ago. I hail from Hyderabad too - Adarsh Nagar Birla Mandir area. Hope you find your stay there continues to enjoyable, despite the corruption and chaotic streets. Hope you are enjoying "Dhum Biryani", "Double ka Mitta", "Hyderabadi Samosa".

clearthinking1

It was Nazis who wanted to march in Skokie, not the KKK, though the KKK supported the Nazis. I was living near Cabrini Green at the time.

There's a lot of complaining how nobody can stay on point, but is this article about Dalits? The plight of Indian women? Anti-Semitism?

No, it's not. So take it somewhere else.

On the other hand, what is the statute of limitations for redressing grievances when people become free of an empire. Does the statute begin when the offense takes place or when the people gain independence? Or is it after the old rulers are no longer rulers? Does the sanctity of a site extend the time? Given that riots were expected nation wide and they didn't happen, are they still coming or is this a story India has moved forward from?

Who gets to decide who's religion is real in these matters? Scientists? Believers? Non-believers?

Guys, there are interesting issues here to contemplate that have issues ranging worldwide.

Anybody have some interesting thoughts to say beyond "You're stupid!" "No, you are!" I'd love to hear opinions about this. I won't be reading or responding to playground debates.

Clearthinking1:

It is ironic that you say that I don't see grays, whilst you accuse me of being anti-Hindu. In your blindness you are much like those Iranians, Pakistanis, Indians, Americans, Muslims, Jews, et al, who say that if you're critical of anything in their culture or practice, you hate or oppose them. You have been on that receiving end.

Thus Jews have called me antisemitic. . .

Posted by: FarnazMansouri2 | October 2, 2010 7:02 PM

Sally Quinn, Hindu (I'm not kidding--she is), defender of Arun Gandhi, antisemite extraordinaire, may have a hand in suppressing discussion of the Dalit.

Essayists may write whatever offensive tripe they wish regarding Jews and Muslims, but may not address the Dalit?

But, then, I am no Suleiman.

Posted by: FarnazMansouri2 | October 2, 2010 7:14 AM

India is fortunate, though, in that Secular the Hindu atheist, religionist bigot, whose antisemtism and Islamophobia are matched only by her ignorance

Posted by: FarnazMansouri2 | October 2, 2010 3:08 AM
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Ms. Farnaz, do you see your three posts. In the latest post you are complaining that Jews accused you of antisemitism, gratuitously. Just in the previous two posts you accused Arun Gandhi and me of the same. Additionally you cast aspersions on Ms. Sally Quinn by claiming she is a Hindu and that is the reason she suppresses any exposure to the plight of the Dalits. Who do you think people on this blog are blind or dumb?

I don't know how much you of Hinduism, beyond the spelling. Let me teach you something about Hindus and Indians. About 85% of the people indians have no idea who is a Jew, any more than they know about Incas. Growing up even though we read about Shylock & Fagan, had no idea what a Jew is. There are hardly any there, nor is it mentioned in any Hindu scripture. It is mighty hard to either hate or love someone when you don't even know they exist. Do you hate Kondangi Velamas? I bet you don't, because you did not even know there are people called Kondangi Velamas. So there is absolutely no reason foe me or Mr Gandhi to hate Jews. Unlike India, you take that moderate paradise of Malaysia where there is hardly any Jews at all yet the former prime minister Mahathir went on a rant about Jews in 2003. Why do you think that is? because the Koran talks about it.

I am an atheist who does not care about any deities and any of the BS that goes around about mythical characters, I much enjoy ridiculing them as they should be. For far too long even atheists had been giving too much reverence to pious people, I call it as I see it. You claim christian versions of OT as mistranslations of mistranslations. But all of the OT heroes are heroes among Christians too, so I have difficult time buying your thesis. You are not an atheist. You still hold Judaism dear to your heart, so you get riled up when any criticism of OT comes up. I couldn't care less, I am not here to spare your feelings.

I can see my posts have brought various Hindus out of their holes. None of whom can stay on the topic. Clearthinking, a typical Hindu who hides his true identity and claims he's just a White guy in US who is interested in Hinduism. So you won 4 wars with Pakistan 'eh? They're teaching that kind of Baloney in the BJP written text books of India?
Posted By: YasserYousufi
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Yasser, you should be able to count up to four easily with finger on one hand without even using your thumb. So now raise your left hand open you palm wide so all your finger stretched out. You can see all your fingers apart right? You should have 5 of them including your thumb. Now you can start:

1) The first one was in Kashmir in 1947 - 1948. You know this right? Pakistani army without even letting your beloved, I mean beloved Qaid E Azam (Did I spell it right? I dont want to offend you here, you know) know, what they were doing. After independent state of Kashmir the signed the instruments of accession India stopped the advancing armies of Pakistan.

Now you fold your pinky down, that is the thinnest finger. You now should have all the other fingers stretched out and the thumb too.

2) Second war was in 1965 under the self bestowed Field Marshall Ayub Khan started it in August 1965 and ended up with 3:1 losses in tanks, plane & territory, But for US intervening on behalf of its proxy Pakistan. But for that Lahore would be flying Ashoka Chakra your fond Hindu/Buddhist emepror of India.

Now take your ring finger or Anguti ki Vungli and fold it down

3) Now you must remember the 1971 war? How can you not? That was the war when Bangla Desh was created.

Now take your middle finger and fold it.

4) 1999 Kargil about 11 years ago, again when your uncle Pervez's army got defeated , must be still gresh in your memory isn't it?

Now fold the finger next to the thumb. How many fingers are out stretched? Isn't it just your thumb? So how many are folded? that is where the four wars come from. Ginthi Ho gaya?

Clearthinking1:

It is ironic that you say that I don't see grays, whilst you accuse me of being anti-Hindu. In your blindness you are much like those Iranians, Pakistanis, Indians, Americans, Muslims, Jews, et al, who say that if you're critical of anything in their culture or practice, you hate or oppose them. You have been on that receiving end.

Thus Jews have called me antisemitic. Catholics called the devout Catholic Rosemary Reuther anti-Catholic, etc., etc.

What is at the root of this sort of thing? It is complex. There is such a thing as victimization and those who have been victimized defend themselves against all comers at any cost. Some learn to trust the sincere and accept criticism. Some can not even recognize the sincere.

ON blogs, the matter is complicated one million fold. Although it can be simplified.

What has Siddarath was born a HINDU got to do with what I said? Wasn't Buddhism the dominant religion of India during the reign of Ashoka. Today Buddhists are just 0.7% of Indian population. With regards to Jainism, it was already an established belief system according to Jains when the Vedic practices came into being.

Posted By YasserYousufi
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Yasser, Yasser, you need to heed my advise man. I have your interests in my heart. I asked you to read it 10 times before going to the Madrassah. Did you ask your sister, to correct your grammar, before posting it? Anyway, you asked, it is not in me to disappoint a curious mind. During the reign of Ashoka, Buddhism was not the dominant religion in India. Ashoka as a matter of fact had his epiphany, when he saw the bloodshed during the Kalinga war. That is when he himself became a Buddhist. He later propagated it through out Asia including Japan, China, & Sri Lanka. It was never such a dominant religion within India. It had its dominant regions one of them being near my Hyderabad called Nagarjuna hills, also in the western India around current day Maha-Rashtra, Ranchi, Pataliputra, Amaravathi, Nalanda.

Regarding Jains, you don't know your ass from your elbow. Jainism as an ism only started around 5th century BC. So it was not already there when the Aryans migrated to the subcontinent. Jainism predates Buddhism, by at least 200 years. They are offshoots of Hinduism, as practiced in India. They had never speciated from Hinduism, like Christianity & Islam did from Judaism. At the core, these two religions started out to ameliorate the suffering, suffering posed by desire.

Actually Buddhism had not found as much popularity after Mauryas, due to decline of royal patronage but as during Ashoka's time. The Jainism had much more success in India but not outside as Buddhism did. These two offshoots of Hinduism suffered a huge intellectual defeats at the hands of Kumarilla Bhatta, & Adi Sankara in the 8th century AD. This was not due to an onslaught of arms. That came after the Muslim Invasions of India under Mohammad of Gori & later Ghazani, etc, etc. So Mr. Yousufi Buddhism & Jainism declined in India due to lack of royal patronage, intellectual onslaught of Adi Sankara, & Kumarilla Bhatta, and of course the death knell or the last nails into the coffin by Islamic Marauders. You know the famous Bahamian Buddhist Statues that lasted till recently.

Clearthinking,

I can see ur squirming and running from post to post. The muslims have rejected the court decision of rewarding the hindu mob and politicians for illegally bringing down the mosque and killing 2000 muslims. Even the muslim judge who wrote this decision disagreed with the final judgment. He has written that no proof of a Hindu temple has been found. India's Archaeology department used forged evidence provided by RSS under pressure from the BJP government. Only Hindu fundamentalists and hindu terrorists are happy over this judgment. What about the Lubrahan Commission report? Why haven't the politicians who instigated the destruction of mosque and murder of innocent muslims been charged despite being held responsible?

Yasseryousufi,

A Pakistani Muslim is sincerely worried about women in India, more than feminists or the sincere Dr. Shukla. Hmmm. How about getting busy about women in Pakistan or Afganistan or Saudi Arabia...

We all agree there are problems in all these societies that need to be improved. So let's not pretend to care more about others' probems. Unless of course, there are terrorist safe havens in a country receiving billions of American taxpayers dollars.

Simple question: Isn't the decision to look at the archeology and history in Ayodhya and to share the site pretty reasonable? Today there is peace in Ayodhya between Indian Hindus & Muslims. Let's be grateful and learn something from these wise Indians.

Yawwwwwn~!

All this standard anti-pakistan lies from psuedo-Hindus like Clearthinking are getting tiring. I've taken them on many times. But this is a blog of a Hindu writer about matters pertaining to India. I never spoke about the Dalits of India, although it is a valid topic. I am questioning why don't we ever hear about the genocide of women from Indian society. 50 million women is a huge number. Why don't the so-called feminists of WaPo utter a single word to condemn this evil act?? Why is Aseem Shukla silent on this topic?

Yasseryousufi,

Your Pakistani madrassa curriculum education is not better than any American curriculum, even the Texas School Board.
You have demonstrated this many times. But is not just your facts but the emotional use of them. Pakistan can't be built on hating Hindus.
Hatred consumes and destroys the hater.

Muslims created Pakistan because of their hatred and their unwillingness to live with others. Instead of helping the Hindus fight the British colonizers, they cut a deal. They have created an Islamic Republic instead of a secular constitutional Republic like India because they do not respect or tolerate nonMuslims. They don't even tolerate Ahmedis, Sufis, or Shiites now. Terrorists training camps for Sikhs and Arabs are now terrorist training camps for Punjabis who kill Hindus and Muslims alike.

Pakistani leaders sold their nation to the UK & US from the beginning out of hatred of Hindus, and the Brits and Americans laughed at their "strategic ally" with a begging bowl in his hand.
Pakistanis cleansed their nation of Hindus. They rewrote their Indic & Vedic history to make it Persian or Arabic, even though they live on the Indus River. The Indus River gave a little reminder of its presence this year.

Yasseryousufi, when will you & your countrymen begin the hard work needed to build a civilized society? 63 years have passed, and window of opportunity is closing fast. It is probably too late already. American strategic thinkers in policy institutes are making long term plans for their interests in South Asia. What are Pakistanis doing?

With all the problems in Pakistan, we are supposed to believe you are really worried about the Dalits in India. I think you are trying to create divisions out of hatred of Hindus. What do you think?

I can see my posts have brought various Hindus out of their holes. None of whom can stay on the topic. Clearthinking, a typical Hindu who hides his true identity and claims he's just a White guy in US who is interested in Hinduism. So you won 4 wars with Pakistan 'eh? They're teaching that kind of Baloney in the BJP written text books of India?

A google search for Yasser Yousufi..........

-----tarle_subba

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Secular, you didn't have to make a fake ID to get your point across. I have no idea what set you off in that previous (as usual) invective laden post. What has Siddarath was born a HINDU got to do with what I said? Wasn't Buddhism the dominant religion of India during the reign of Ashoka. Today Buddhists are just 0.7% of Indian population. With regards to Jainism, it was already an established belief system according to Jains when the Vedic practices came into being.

So I have no idea whether you fell from your bed before you posted your last couple of posts or whether it was my bringing up those uncomfortable facts about India which you cannot take on. Btw.....if you really are interested in finding out more about me you could just ask straight away~! Unlike your fellow Hindu goon AKafir I have never been ashamed of my true identity.

Secular,

Let Farnaz & Yasseryousufi speak. The more they write, the more their anti-Hindu agenda becomes obvious. I was in Chicago in the 1970's when the white supremacists(KKK) wanted to march on a Jewish neighborhood. Everybody agreed: let them speak. They will expose themselves, and we will laugh. I worked well, as this blog also shows.
Hindu-haters have a standard list of talking points and these posts demonstrate it well. And it usually goes like this:

1. Never acknowledge the good in Hinduism. Deepak Chopra is a good example of this (Yoga, meditation).

2. Go on the offensive immediately if anything good is said or done - like a peaceful resolution in Ayodah. The tolerance of Hindus has been interpreted as weakness by Muslims and Christians from the beginning. They haven't realized yet that history has moved on. For example, Pakistani Muslims live in this fantasy even after losing 4 wars to India and the amputation and liberation of Bangladeshis, who were not occupied by Hindus, but freed form fellow Muslim oppression.

3. Then begin the lines of attack which use socioeconomic problems and try to blame Hinduism. These socioeconomic problems exist in exist in nonHindu state as well but this is irrelevant to the attackers.

These nonHindu specific problems include:

Islamic terrorism - who has lived in peace with muslims (inc. muslims)
Poverty - the slums in Karachi and Mexico City are because of Hinduism?
Gender inequality - Hinduism has an equal number of female deities, including Shakti. This is better than any other religion. Not to mention a female Prime Minister & Presisident.
Feticide - the Chinese, Sikhs, etc do this because of Hinduism?
Dalits - They exist in Hindu, Muslim, Christian, & Sikh communities.

These social problems are real, but using them in an attempt to defame Hinduism is the specialty of Hindu-hating intellectual contortionists. Let them speak and enjoy.

P.S.
Kashmir - It is Islamic terrorists trained in Pakistan who have done the village massacres and ethnically cleansed the Kashmiri Pandits. The Army is needed to keep order, otherwise we all can see what will happen. Chaos will descend like in Pakistan. The ordinary people will suffer, while the Islamists and Hindu-haters have their way. This is a low level guerilla war, and the vast majority killed have been Islamic terrorists. America has had to go on the offensive in Afghanistan and Pakistan. The Karma for Pakistan is only beginning to manifest itself with the drone strikes. Should America do nothing to the terrorist safe havens in Pakistan?

4. Poverty. The poverty exists partly because of the fact that when the British left, there was no industrialization or an educational infrastructure. The economy is being built from the ground up. Hindus in India are making progress. Pakistan is still dependent on their white, colonial masters for everything. Poverty exists in many nations - Hindu, Christian, or Muslim.

Satyam Evam Vijayate

B. B. Lal (part IV/last)

The material of 27 temples, on (the erection of) each of which 2,000,000 Deliwals had been spent, were used in (the construction of) this mosque. May God the great and glorious have mercy on him who should pray for the faith of the founder of the good (building) (pp-66).

To sum up, the evidence presented in the foregoing paragraphs in respect of the existence of a Hindu temple in the Janma Bhumi area at Ayodhya preceding the construction of the Babri Masjid is so eloquent that no further comments are necessary. Unfortunately, the basic problem with a certain category of historians and archaeologists-and others of the same ilk-is that seeing they see not or knowingly they ignore. Anyway, in spite of them the truth has revealed itself. (pp-68)

(A world renowned archaeologist the writer was the Director General of the ASI. His excavations cover a very wide range. At Kalibangan, Rajasthan, he unearthed a prosperous city of the Harappan Civilisation. The excavations at Hastinapur have established that there was a kernel of truth in the Mahabharata, even though the epic is full of interpolations. The excavations at Ayodhya have shown that the Ramayana too has a basis in history. In 1961 he conducted excavations in Egypt too. The President of India honoured him with Padma Bhushan.)

In support
AUTHENTICATING Prof Lal is this statement of Shri KK Muhammad, Deputy Superintendent Archaeologist (Madras Circle) as appeared in the English daily, Indian Express on December 15, 1990: "I can reiterate this (ie. the existence of the Hindu Temple before it was displaced by the Babri Masjid) with greater authority - for I was the only Muslim who had participated in the Ayodhya excavations in 1976-77 under Prof. Lal as a trainee. I have visited the excavation near the Babri site and seen the excavated pillar bases. The JNU historians have highlighted ONLY ONE

PART OF OUR FINDINGS WHILE SUPPRESSING THE OTHER." Muhammad went to add: "Ayodhya is as holy to the Hindus as Mecca is to the Muslims; Muslims should respect the sentiments of their Hindu brethren and voluntarily hand over the structure for constructing the Ram Temple."

B. B. Lal (part III)

The inscription makes it abundantly clear that there did exist at the site a temple datable to circa 11th-12th century CE (AD). The sculptures and inscribed slab that came out from within the walls of the Masjid belonged to this very temple. (pp-64)

It has been contented by certain historians (Eminent Historians) that these images, architectural parts and the inscribed slab were brought by the karsevaks from somewhere else and surreptitiously palced there at the time of the demolition of the Masjid. This contention is absolutely baseless.

On the other hand, a reputed journal India Today, published in its issue dated December 31, 1992, a photograph, which shows the karsevaks carrying on their shoulders a huge stone-sculpted with a long frieze, after having picked it up from the debris. (pp-64)

The above mentioned historians have also alleged that the inscription has been forged. This is behaving like the Village School Master of Oliver Goldsmith, who, ‘though vanquished would argue still’. So many eminent epigraphists of the country have examined the inscribed slab and not even one of them is of the view that the inscription is forged. (Note: Emphasis as appearing in the book) Anyway, to allay misgivings, I append here a note from the highest authority on epigraphical matters in the country, namely the Director of Epigraphy, ASI, Dr KV Ramesh (Appendix II). In it he first gives a summary of the inscription, then an actual reading of the text and finally an English translation thereof. While many scholars may like to go through the Note, it maybe straightaway here that according to it this temple was built by Meghasuta who obtained the lordship of Saketamandala (i.e. Ayodhya) through the grace of the senior Lord of the earth viz Govinda Chandra, of the Gahadavala dynasty who ruled over a vast empire, from 1114 to 1155 CE. (pp-66)

In this entire context, it also needs to be added that there exist hundreds of examples, all over the country, of the destruction of temples and incorporation of their material in the mosques during the medieval times. For example, right in Delhi there is the Quwwatu’l-Islam Mosque (‘Might of Islam’) near the Qutb Minar, which incorporated parts of a large number of temples that had been wantonly destroyed by Qutub-ud-din Aibak. A figure shows, standing within the mosque complex, a colonnade which was constructed by using sculpted pillars of the demolished 27 Hindu and Jain temples. This was a matter of glory for the conqueror as has been recorded by himself in an inscription still existing on inner lintel of the eastern entrance of the mosque. Its English translation, by Maulvi Zafar Hasan, is as follows: "The fort was conquered and this Jami Masjid was built in (the months of) the year 587 (1191-92 AD) by the Amir, the great and glorious commander of the army, (named) Qutub-ud-daulat-wa-d-din, the Amir-ul-umara Aibak Sultani, may God strengthen his helpers....

B.B. Lal (part II)

.....Curiously, events take their own course. On December 6, 1992, the Masjid was demolished by the karsevaks who had assembled in large number at the site. The demolition, though regrettable, brought to light a great deal of archaeological material from within the thick walls of the Masjid. From the published reports it is gathered that there were more than 200 specimens which included many sculptured panels and architectural components which must have constituted parts of the demolished temple. Besides, there were three inscriptions, of which two are illustrated here. (pp-61)

Of the above mentioned three inscriptions, the largest one is engraved on a stone-slab measuring 1.10 x .56 meters, and consists of twenty lines. It has since been published by Professor Ajaya Mitra Shastri of Nagpur University in the Puruttatva No. 23 (1992-93), pp-35. (Professor Shastri, who unfortunately is no more, was a distinguished historian and a specialist in Epigraphy and Numismatics). The relevant part of the paper reads as follows: ‘The inscription is composed in high-flown Sanskrit verse, except for a small portion in prose, and is engraved in chaste and classical Nagari script of the eleventh-twelfth century AD. It has yet to be fully deciphered, but the portions which have been fully deciphered and read are of great historical significance for our purpose here. It was evidently put up on the wall of the temple, the construction of which is recorded in the text inscribed on it. Line 15 of this inscription, for example, clearly tells us that a beautiful temple of Vishnu-Hari, built with heaps of stones and beautified with a golden spire unparalleled by any other temple built by the earlier kings was constructed. This wonderful temple was built in the temple-city of Ayodhya situated in the Saketamandala showing that Ayodhya and Saketa were closely connected, Saketa being the district of which Ayodhya was a part. Line 19 describes God Vishnu as destroying King Bali (apparently in Vamana manifestation) and the ten headed personage (i.e. Ravana). (pp-63-64)

The inscription makes it abundantly clear that there did exist at the site a temple datable to circa 11th-12th century CE (AD). The sculptures and inscribed slab that came out from within the walls of the Masjid belonged to this very temple. (pp-64) ...

A google search for Yasser Yousufi brings this up: "Network Manager at Sindh High Court" and before that "Program Officer (IT) at Karachi Mega City Development Project." So, it is an interesting combination of Farnaz Mansouri (who claims to be Jewish) and Yasser Yousufi working in the Sindh High Court to take on the cause of Indian women, Dalits, and assorted Indian causes, and write about the terrible state of the Indian state. Interesting indeed...

So Secular are the Hindus going to right the wrongs 13th and 14th century? You have proven that this is justice of the victor. Do the Jains and Buddhists have a right to seek justice from hindus for the sins of their Aryan fore-fathers? Take off your Hindu-Supremacist cap for a second and try being a neutral for a change.
________________________________________________

Yasser, you and Farnaz would do well to keep your thoughts just between your ears. That is the safest place. Only a blathering idiot would make a statement like above. That shows the ignorance that goes around Pakistan for learning. The above also shows how much of the history of the land is taught in Pakistan. Your statement is tantamount to saying Mexico was carved out of southern half of Texas. You moron read the following 10 times and go back to your Madrassah:

Sidhartha was born a HINDU prince in present day Nepal. He was protected by his parents from seeing any misery. However, he one day saw a dying man the street and was moved by it. He immediately renounced his throne, went seeking the truth behind human existence. After many a penance, and meditation he got enlightened. Thus he was called Buddha. He went around spreading the knowledge, which became Buddhism.

Read this again and again 100 times and come back. Then I will tell you about Jainism. Two lessons in one week will be too much for you, I mean whatever space you have between your ears.

May be you should consult with your sister in arms the Professor-know-it-all before you post this kind of foolish stuff. But then she saw it and did not correct it. So may be she wasn't aware of it either.

Farnaz,

I haven't followed Aseem Shukla often, although I do know that he is more comfortable writing articles critical of Pakistan which is outside his domain really. Have you ever seen an article written on the 50,000,000 Indian women (according to UNICEF) who have disappeared/murdered in the last few years owing to Abortion, Female Infanticide, Foeticide, Son preference in India. determining the sex of a child although illegal, is still a $100 million industry in India.

According to some Hindu myths, a girl child is the fruit of your bad karma and male child is a result of good Karma. Girl child is considered cursed from her birth. The parents start worrying about feeding her till she gets old and goes to another household along with dowry. In the rural India where people do not have access to Ultrasound machines, girl child is often strangulated to death or fed crushed glass. India is the only country in the world that has brought the girl child ratio wrt boys down to 800/1000. The normal rate is around 1150/1000. This is the face of India we never see on these blogs. How come??? I agree Sally Quinn could be the reason!

Jihadist wrote:

Mr. Aseem Shukla,

Good to hear the judges being Solomon-like on the disputed and controversial, and you wanting India to move forward on religions and ethnicities, on caste and development.
____________________________________
Does Dr. Shukla wish to move forward on caste? I am no Solomon, but I would think that the Dalit wish that, too, and it would seem that if Dr. Shukla wished it, he would blog on it. However, I'm beginning to wonder if the fault truly lies with him.

Awhile ago, he posted a tepid objection on a caste matter, which was literally removed from the OnSite main page, as was his other essay removed from the page several hours ago when the Dalit issue heated up.

Sally Quinn, Hindu (I'm not kidding--she is), defender of Arun Gandhi, antisemite extraordinaire, may have a hand in suppressing discussion of the Dalit.

Essayists may write whatever offensive tripe they wish regarding Jews and Muslims, but may not address the Dalit?

But, then, I am no Suleiman.

I wonder how many on this thread have ever been to India. I'm sure some have, but you are describing a place I don't recognize. While India has many problems, corruption among the most severe, intolerance is not anywhere near the top of my list. Maybe it's because I live in Hyderabad and there is a different demographic here than in other parts of India. It's almost 40% Muslim here and the only violence I have witnessed against Muslims was by other Muslims. The mosque bombing of a few years ago and the bombing of the music festival comes to mind.

I have many friends of all kinds of religions. I would go so far as to say that I find India far more tolerant than many places in the US. I also have many friends of all casts, and that includes Dalites. India is changing fast and each year it gets better. Even if some people still shun Dalites, the Constitution forbids a cast system. Doctors cannot reveal the gender of a fetus. Pakistan cannot say the same regarding women or the Taliban in Afghanistan. The law forces the subjugation of minorities even if the minority is half the human race.

That being said, I wholeheartedly condemn what happened in the riots. Just as I would condemn the burning of the train that sparked the riots, which was also sparked and on, and on, and on. Even as a non-Muslim, I can condemn actions as a human being.

But I would consider the RSS to be a terrorist organization just as I do American militias that led to Oklahoma City and the Oregon Bank bombing. And, I would not paint all Hindus with the same brush just as I would not paint all Muslims the same because of 9/11.

In the US, conservatives are freaking out about a mosque being built somewhere kinda sorta near one of the 9/11 attack sites. Here, it was offered a spot in the same plot as the temple. Maybe that's not good enough for some, but Indian Muslims seem to be mostly OK with it. Prosecuting those that took part in the riots should have been the most important job, but unfortunately, corrupt politicians stopped real investigations because they were involved.

I know your probably thinking these are the words of just another Indian Hindu. Except, I'm not Hindu. I'm not Indian. I'm an American, raised as a Catholic, who became an Atheist, and moved to India. Oh, and I'm white.

I can travel freely all over India with no fear of physical harm or kidnapping. I often travel alone on my bike through Naxulite regions. I sit in huts made of tarps and enjoy meeting and talking to many different people. I travel villages alone with my tiny bit of Hindi and have a great time meeting fantastic people, Hindus, Muslims, Sikhs, Christians, and even Jews. I do this all around Hyderabad, India and I feel safe and am welcomed warmly.

Can can the same be said of Hyderabad, Pakistan?

I find it amusing how some muslims from South Asia claim that muslims did this and we did that....all the muslims in South Asia have a Hindu Heritage, they were all Hindus once before they were forcefully converted by Foreign Invaders, i find it quite amusing too that they think of themselves as foreigners in India(specially the whole "we are the mughals" thing) wheras they are Indian who's ancestors were forcefully converted. When they criticise Hindus they criticise their own blood.

---WalkingTall

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So Hindus should be beyond any criticism for the reason? Not all muslims of sub-continent were offsprings of the Hindus. They have turkish, persian, Arab, afghani, mongol/tartar, Uzbek ancestory too. Besides before you were Hindu you were probably Jain or Buddhist. Your fore-fathers also embraced the religion of the Aryan marauders.

Mr. Aseem Shukla,

Good to hear the judges being Solomon-like on the disputed and controversial, and you wanting India to move forward on religions and ethnicities, on caste and development.

That 2007 movie, "Chak De! India!" has a more enjoyable and interesting take on Indian patriotism, to move forward, especially in the spirit of this 19th Commonwealth Games it is hosting. I'm rooting for the Indian female hockey team in the Games.

Hope the monsoon don't wash out the Games, and the aedes mosquitos takes a break from spreading dengue. Hope the netball games goes on well too.

Looking forward to see the grand opening this Sunday of the Commonwealth Games hosted by India.

Chak De! India!
Go for it India!

Farnaz,

I'll agree with you, her rampant hatred of muslims and unbridled antisemitism is getting embarrassing.

I find it amusing how some muslims from South Asia claim that muslims did this and we did that....all the muslims in South Asia have a Hindu Heritage, they were all Hindus once before they were forcefully converted by Foreign Invaders, i find it quite amusing too that they think of themselves as foreigners in India(specially the whole "we are the mughals" thing) wheras they are Indian who's ancestors were forcefully converted. When they criticise Hindus they criticise their own blood.

Yasser,

Thanks for the post. You know, the Maoists are particularly interesting in that many of them aren't really followers of Chairman Mao, merely young people desperate in the face of injustice, becoming increasingly dangerous.

India is fortunate, though, in that Secular the Hindu atheist, religionist bigot, whose antisemtism and Islamophobia are matched only by her ignorance and English language deficits, no longer has her among them. Sadly, we in the United States cannot make the same claim.

So Secular are the Hindus going to right the wrongs 13th and 14th century? You have proven that this is justice of the victor. Do the Jains and Buddhists have a right to seek justice from hindus for the sins of their Aryan fore-fathers? Take off your Hindu-Supremacist cap for a second and try being a neutral for a change. Not only did the Hindus hack down that mosque absolutely illegally, they got away with the murder of 2000 Muslims while the Indian Police watched and in some instances joined the rioters. And now the High Court rewards this savagery. How can an Indian Muslim believe justice has been served in this case? Can he consider himself an equal citizen after this judgment in the so-called Secular India?

Farnaz,

Do you know that there is an active insurgency going on in 16 provinces of India and nearly one third of all districts. India is like the old USSR. The hindus were lucky to get whole of India which never was a single country before muslims came. India was a hotch potch of small nation states pretty much like Europe when the muslims arrived. Now the dalits dont want to live with India, the Christian Naxalites want a separate country, the Maoist have declared they'll take over New Delhi like they did in Nepal in 20 years, the Bodo's, the Kashmiri's and dozens of other. They are all sick of the racist Hindu Brahman's small mindedness.

India fears that if they let go of Kashmir, the whole of India would just come down like a pack of cards. The 100,000 troops you quote is a huge understatement. There is no fewer than half a million Indian troops in Kashmir, the biggest concentration of troops/sqft anywhere in the world, and they are failing miserably. More than 70,000 Kashmiris have been killed by these troops. I don't think anyone has the power to stop an idea whose time has arrived. Not even 600,000 troops. India cannot sustain its killing spree in Kashmir forever. Pretty soon it will have to give in.

clearthinking1, while i hail the judgment, as a wise compromise this no way an endorsement or testimony for any religion. The secularists like me still hold that last thing India needs is another temple nor another mosques there are too numerous of them as it is. The truth claims of any religion are not substantiated by any evidence. As far as that goes all religions are false. Humanity would be better off without these fairy tales about skydaddies and skymommies.

Poor Ms. Secular. Runs away rather than face facts. And when she's given facts, runs away again.

Posted by: FarnazMansouri2
______________________________________________
You wouldn't know facts even when they hit you in your face. All you know is, go on a tear. As clearthinking1 put it, you need to be on meds to help you with your OCD.

We are lost, quite simply, all of us. We cannot be good with religion, with ANY institutionalized religion, that is clear.

Whether we could be good without them, we cannot know. There would still be nations, the fictions of "race," gender, etc.

Dr. Shukla,
Thank you for an excellent article which provides the proper perspective on the history. As you point out the history of Hindus has been written by the Muslims and British Christians for centuries. And after Independence from the colonizers, the history has been written by disingenuous "secular" anti-Hindu scholars.

The is symbolically an historic and extraordinary decision for 2 reasons:

1. It is based on a reasonable assessment of facts. For example, the archeology has always been fairly clear that this was a Hindu Temple. But if someone simply stated this fact, he was accused of being a "fundamentalist" by the secular pseodointellectuals. This tremendous hypocrisy of the "secularists" has been exposed. They are the ones who have been ignoring facts & data because of their disingenuous anti-Hindu agenda. Who is the "fundamentalist" now?

2. The decision to share shows the reasonableness of Hindu culture. There is near universal consensus that humiliating the Muslims is unnecessary, even though the historical facts favor the Hindus. This is once again simply a manifestation of the profound tolerance of Hindus. Babur and the Muslims certainly don't have an impressive history of tolerance or sharing the thousands of destroyed temples.

These two revelations are an absolute body-blow to the anti-Hindu coalition. You can sense this in the comments of the Muslims, residual Khalistanis, and "secularists".

This is why those with a destructive agenda have been exposed, and they are busy blogging about Kashmir or Dalits or whatever distracts from them from their distress.

The laws of Dharma & Karma are eternally just, but how long one must wait is always difficult. The anti-Hindu people have been dishonest for a long time, but Truth cannot be denied or covered forever.

Pseudointellectuals don't understand the word "Sanatana"(eternal) and "Satyam"(Truth), so they believe they are not real(mithya) and that the unreal is real.

So, a few relevant quotes from the Upanishads: (The Sages who stated these weren't ambivalent.)
"Lead me from the unreal to the real"
"Truth is always victorious"

Keep up the good work, Dr. Shukla. The propagators of falsehoods will fail; they know who they are.

Ms. Secular is advised to study basic English vocabulary, looking up words like "decompose." I shan't waste time on her syntax, etc.

There is ample assistance available on the web. As for "undergraduate term papers," a favorite phrase of Ms. Secular, the lady is invited to read some of them, available on the web. She is directed also to look at simple five-paragraph-three-point essays on any of the numerous ESL web sites.

She will find that persons who have never been to the US, persons who have been here for six months, and have never studied English write far better than this lady does and pen more reasoned text.

I'd hold off on name-calling anyone were I this lady. Name-calling is a logical fallacy, of course, but the lady insults so many of her superiors, including undergraduates, that she is becoming an embarrassment.

Indeed, her rudeness is becoming legendary.
On another thread, she actually directed another blogger not to post!

Poor Ms. Secular. Runs away rather than face facts. And when she's given facts, runs away again.

Another example of Ms. farnaz's MO, Get hold of one thing and keep on repeating ad nauseum. When she cannot put two words together she simply ignores them. I laid out 4 points and even numbered them just in case she cannot decompose them. But did she answer any of the four? Of course not. Why you ask, because she has no clue how to deal with them. In previous posts I pointed out what happened when her hair brained term paper ideas were put into action twice before she did not have a word on that. Why you ask? Because she has no clue.

The poll on the two thirds of Kashmiris who desire independence was reported worldwide. Information is accessible through google.

However, for the benefit of Ms. Secular, who inquired, here is a link on the poll:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20100912/wl_sthasia_afp/indiaunrestkashmirpoll

For those interested in learning more about the most recent anti-Indian riots in Kashmir:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/33820086/ns/world_news-kashmir
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The one hundred thousand Indian troops must leave Kashmir. The checkpoints must be dismantled. The curfews must end. There must be no more discoveries of mass graves.
A plebicite must be held.

The situation will not remain as unstable as it is. When you have huge numbers of dispossessed, landless young men, flag burning is just the beginning. You can kill eighteen people, but you cannot kill all the people, and you do NOT want to kill anyone.

In the most recent poll, the majority of Kasmiris supported an independent Kashmir. Enough said.

Mountbatten(!) called for a plebiscite. Three UN Resolutions have demanded a plebiscite, as has Pakistan, repeatedly.

Buddhists and other minorities are unlikely to support either becoming part of Pakistan or seeing an independent Kashmir. A significant Muslim minority would prefer joining Pakistan, and the majority favor independence.

Posted by Farnaz Mansouri
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Me.Farnaz:

Who conducted this damn poll.

1) Did they include the Pundits of Kashmir who had been forcibly evicted from their ancestral lands, by Muslim terrorists, aided by Pakistan?

2) Did you know the precondition for the plebiscite was for Pakistan to leave the POK, for a period of several years? If you do not know these factual details it is best you restrain from betraying your ignorance.

3) What about the other minorities wanting to remain part of India? Why did you word in a convoluted manner. They can be left to dry, in another Islamic Paradise right?

4) What about the minority of Muslims, who rather be part of India, because they have seen the fate of the minority Muslims in Islamic Paradise? What about them? Anyway they are the apostates who gives a S%^t.

5) Keep your hair brained ideas between your ears. That is a safe place for all concerned.

clearthinking1:

Your thinking remains muddled. As I have remarked not only on this thread, but on previous threads, Hindus have taken up the oppression of the Dalit. In fact, in the past, I not only made the point, but posted a bibliography.

It is obvious both from the context and in my mention of the depraved vitriol visited upon Eboo Patel for a single essay on the oppression of Indian Muslims, that when I mentioned the failure of Hindus to take up the Dalit oppression, I was referring to those who post on OnFaith.

That failure and the preference of Hindus such as your foggy-brained self to deny, whine, screech, and personally attack is obvious from the hole you dig yourself in ever deeper and deeper.

Instead of lying and name-calling, which does you no good (believe me, it harms you above all others, as your Hindu learning should have taught you), why not deal with the oppression of the Dalit?

Why not ask Shukla to do the same? How does this horror benefit you? Or anyone?

farnazmansouri2,

You continue to write false statements and gross exaggerations to the point of absurdity. That is why I question your sincerity on this issue and your desire for peaceful progress.

You now write, "the failure of a single self-identified Hindu to take up the issue of the Dalit."
Are you truly that ignorant about this issue and all the efforts Hindus in India are exerting?
Read what "self-identified Hind" like Mahatma Gandhi, Swami Vivekananda, Swami Dayananda have said on this issue. Learn what they have done. This is one small example of leadership devout Hindus have shown in addressing this issue. Significant progress has been made and more will be made. What's your plan? - to feel good by insulting Dr. Shukla?

Your statements are not just incorrect, but they are, by any definition, ignorant and offensive to all these people. That is why there is outrage over your offensive & irrelevant statements. Save your self-righteousness; it's not fooling too many people. We all know who is willing to "vilify, screech, and whine" with false & offensive statements.

Clearthinking:

Your thinking is muddled, and this is not the first time it has been.

A couple of years ago, Eboo Patel posted one single piece on the oppression of Muslims in India. Raving Hindu lunatics assaulted him with name-calling the likes of which I had only seen directed at Jewish essayists.

I am not the problem, Clearthinking. Rather, the problem is your muddled brain.

What alarms me more than anything is the failure of a single self-identified Hindu to take up the issue of the Dalit.

What they will do is vilify, screech, and whine.

In the most recent poll, the majority of Kasmiris supported an independent Kashmir. Enough said.

Mountbatten(!) called for a plebiscite. Three UN Resolutions have demanded a plebiscite, as has Pakistan, repeatedly.

Buddhists and other minorities are unlikely to support either becoming part of Pakistan or seeing an independent Kashmir. A significant Muslim minority would prefer joining Pakistan, and the majority favor independence.

The one hundred thousand Indian soldiers must leave Kashmir; the checkpoints must be dismantled. There must be no further discoveries of mass graves.

Indian flag burning is just the beginning. First, people burn flags. Landless, roaming oppressed young men, who now abound in Kashmir, will not permit the status quo to continue--they have made this clear. It is in no one's interest for things to continue on in this way.

Farnazmansouri2,

Your posts are becoming bizarre and obsessive-compulsive. Almost embarrassing to read.

You wrote, "India has no business in Muslim Kashmir." Do Muslims have no business in Hindu India? Do you think they should be "removed"? Do Kashmiri Pandits have any business in Kashmir (they were "removed" from their homes recently? Do Jews have no business in Christian Germany or America?

Do you not understand the basic concepts of tolerance and plurality? The world is trying to move on from tribal politics and tribal religions. Yet, you seem obsessed with trying to create division instead of solving problems.

You write this on a day of peace, when reasonable people took a reasonable step forward in India. India is 85% Hindu but a constitutional, secular, democracy trying to find a way to live in peace with Muslims. This is something not easily accomplished, but at least in India there is a chance. In contrast, Pakistan has been in the news with massacres of Ahmedis, Shiites, Sufis and not to mention the treatment of Christians, Sikhs & Hindus by the Suni Muslims of Pakistan.

Your obsessive-compulsive statements about dalits are beginning to sound disingenuous.

***You write these things on a day of peace.***
On a day when people in India, Muslims & Hindus, have a sense of optimism and are walking around with smiles.

Does this peaceful resolution bother you? Do you have some other agenda which is undermined by peace & progress? I think its time for a little introspection, meditation & self-analysis. It'll do wonders for your OCD and you'll sleep better.

The Kashmiris recently stated unequivocally that they want an independent state. End, really, of discussion.
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But of course, Bihar is for Biharis, Bengal is for Bengalis, Texas is for Texans, North Carolina is for North Carolin-ans, Scotland is for Scots, Wales is for Welsh, Tel Avis for Tel Avivans. I guess US, Britain, and Israeli governments will pack up leave. Who is a Kashmiri? What about non-Kashmiris from Pakistan taken residence in POK? Should they be thrown on their asses, after living there for 60+ years? Is it going to be a secular country? Like Pakistan I suppose. This is an absolutely ridiculous proposition. It is not like writing a term paper for an undergraduate class. The can of worms it opens will not be funny. The subcontinent has seen two such experiments one embarked on somewhat voluntarily in 1947 (at least on one side) and another in 1971 which was inevitable. Both of them were not very pretty. Read the article below from the perspective of the side that mad it inevitable.

http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_4.1/khan.htm

Indian sub-continent does not need hair brained under graduate term papers to experiment with.

Just having maintained a claim doesn't make the Hindus liable to receive something that is not theirs. It certainly doesn't allow them to hack down this mosque either.

YasserYousufi
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So Babur was the legal owner of that land because he defeated Hemu & Ibrahim Lodi. Ayodhya has always been considered birth place of Rama imagined or real (more imagined of course) and Hindus have temples in all those places considered to be birth places of their deities, including Mathura and Bali in current day Indonesia and the list goes on. It is the same as the 2nd Temple and the Dome of the Rock, though Solomom is also more imagined than real, definitely Yweh is even more imagined than real. Same goes for Allah more imagined than real, for that matter each and every deity of past, present and future.

The Kashmiris recently stated unequivocally that they want an independent state. End, really, of discussion.

In the meantime, the one hundred thousand Indian soldiers need to go, and quickly. These Kashmiri young men are restless as the media have pointed out repeatedly. The brutality and checkpoints need to go.

India has no business in Muslim Kashmir. Neither, at this point, does Pakistan.

Kashmir belongs to Kashmiris.

Take a look at Kashmir, the recent discovery of mass graves, the one hundred thousand Indian soldiers, the hideous checkpoints. Think about the young Kashmir men who want an end to the occupation.
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In every part of the subcontinent Hindus are the natives. Unlike other parts of the world, like Iran where Zoroastrians gave up their claims of Persia and fled, Hindus have not done that. By the way Zoroastrians now look to Republic of India as their homeland and not the grand old Persia of Darius, Cyrus, & Xerxes . Hindus on the other hand have staked their claim and stayed there. Some may have converted to Islam for whatever reason. Hindus did not wholesale converted to Islam and have steadfastly maintained their claim. Only in 1947 unable to come to terms with intransigent Muslim bigots and opportunists, did they reluctantly relinquish their rightful claim on western Punjab, Sindh, NWF provinces, & East Bengal. If anything Muslims as a religious entity are the interlopers through out Indian subcontinent. Just as they are in most of the world from Algeria to Indonesia, sans Arabia, including Egypt, Iran, Iraq, Sudan Libya, Malaysia, Turkey, Syria, Indonesia, Bosnia, not to speak of most of Africa, etc, etc. I am not quibbling about all those countries as there has been an wholesale conversion of the indigenous peoples, by whatever means - best left unaddressed. Kashmir is not occupied, it is part of Republic of India. The then Maharaja of Kashmir signed the articles of ascension back in 1948. That was prompted by the invasion of Kashmir, until then an independent Indian state, by Pakistan. Legally it is a part of Indian Republic. Additionally it has always been considered part of India as an entity. The Muslims of India who were residing in Indian Republic had a choice to move to East or West Pakistan. The choice was open to Kashmiri muslims just as much as the Bihari muslims. They could have easily moved there. But what was not allowed is to take their land with them to Pakistan. At that time the demographics of Kashmiri was fairly evenly divided. Western portion was perhaps more Muslim than eastern portion. The overall distribution was equal. Since then with meddling of Pakistan and occupation of nearly half of the western portion most of the Hindus were driven south. Even today if the Hindus return the population balance will again be fairly equal. So there is no legal claim to Kashmir by Pakistan. In fact Pakistan must return the POK Pakistani Occupied Kashmir.

India could be a "Shining Star," a locution I've frequently used. Right now, the sky is overcast with Dalit, the second class status of Muslims (and I'm not bringing up Gujurat), bride-burning, female feticide, corruption, etc.

Pakistan, Bengaladesh could shine and shimmer in the heavens. Indeed, polishing of Bengladesh might begin with the end of India's shenanigans there, which may soon lead to civil war in that starving country.

The United States could be a light unto the nations, a City on a Hill. Every country can be.

Indeed, every country can be....

1) It has been quite categorically established that established that there was an existing temple on the site
2) It was also established quite categorically that Babur had, in keeping with the dominionist world view, built a mosque over the temple.
3) It has also been established without a shadow of a doubt that the Hindus have maintained claim on the site unceasingly, even though they had not received any redress.
4) This particular verdict had been very fair & generous to the Muslims in providing for them a place in the same site for their Mosque.

---Secular

*************************************

With regards to points 1 & 2, it has not been established "categorically" that the mosques was built on a temple. In fact one out of the three judges Justice S U Khan wrote in his judgment that no temple was demolished in the construction of this mosque. The report submitted by the Archaeological Department was during the government of BJP headed by Atal Bihari Vajpayee who was himself implicated in the Lubrahan Commission. It relied on evidence provided by right wing fundamentalist hindu parties.

Just having maintained a claim doesn't make the Hindus liable to receive something that is not theirs. It certainly doesn't allow them to hack down this mosque either. Has any of the Hindu leaders implicated India own investigation (Lubrahan Commission) been charged with the crime of inciting violence against muslims?

The verdict which hands over Hindus 2/3 of the mosque including the central part can hardly be deemed just. As I said, this decision smacks of cronyism. Hindu terrorist parties like VHP, Bajrang Dal, BJP, RSS etc have been rewarded for their thuggery and murder campaign. I doubt if any muslim in India believes this is a just outcome.

This judgement smacks of cronyism and innate bias of the Hindus for the muslims. Its kind of indicating muslims to know their place in India. Im sure the Indian muslims will soon follow the Kashmiris in getting themselves rid of this wretched country.

Posted by: yasseryousufi
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Yasser, it is not enough to repeat age worn cliches, which have long been proven to be as fictional as a flying pig. The Muslims living in Indian Republic of India were free to leave India for Pakistan or anywhere else since 1947. Same has been true for the Indian Muslime from Kashmir, as it is also a part of Indian Republic. They have chosen to stay for several reason and not least of it their appraisal of what is in store for them in Pakistan. Especially in this day and age of internet, they learn about the fate of their Ummah in Pakistan. They read about fire bombings of Shia, Ahmediya and other mosques every Friday. It behooves you well to read the following assessment of a fellow Mohjir below:

http://www.logosjournal.com/issue_4.1/khan.htm

Please pay special attention to the passage below, which is in the tail end of the article:

"Today there are large settlements of educated mohajirs in USA, UK, Germany and other parts of Europe. The Diaspora of Indian Muslims who migrated to Pakistan is found all over after their remigration. Even highly placed officials, after retirement, are joining their children abroad who left earlier. During my travels I have come across Pakistani Canadians who have retrieved the ancestral property their parents have left in India. They prefer to spend their holidays in India rather than Pakistan which was their last country of abode. A well known crony of Jinnah, recently answered that if Jinnah came back to day he would not recognize the Pakistan he created:’ Who knows what happens next? Looking back on all these events one would be a fool not to wonder whether it was worth it . The leadership lacked statesmanship and Mountbatten was in a hurry to get back to England. What one needs today is what was lost in the 1940s: the prospect that India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh should enter into a close relationship that may ultimately lead to a Federal state."

There isn't greater indictment of Pakistan than this one. Let me assure you that he is not a solitary voice. There are plenty of secular acquaintances of mine from both Pakistan and Bangladesh who yearn for the idea of undivided Bharat. Their words not mine. While not as universal but the same sentiments are echoed by many a more moderate muslims from those two countries. You know the most telling for me, was Mohajirs who migrated to Pakistan and now live in the US and Canada go to India to vacation than to Pakistan.

So this judgment is another feather in the cap on India. It will shine as a symbol of a true secular state. I would say US, Canada, Western Europe could borrow a page from Republic of India

Jyotishi:

Muslim invaders destroyed thousands of Hindu temples and then built their victory mosques on top of them. Legal action similar to Ayodhya needs to be taken to retake the land resurrect the Hindu temples.
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Indeed, Muslims have done so. "They" destroyed ancient Hindu and Jewish holy sites in Afghanistan, just recently. "They" built the Dome of the Rock ON TOP of the Temple Mount. They destroyed parts of the Cave of the Patriarchs. They bombed synagogues, most recently in Turkey, destroyed ancient Jewish sites in Iraq, and recently demanded the return of ancient Torah Scrolls taken by Americans.

Take that in. They persecuted Jews, made the country Judenrein, but want the return of our ancient scrolls. Why? They said that it is part of Iraq's history, when Jews lived there. Those would be the Jews they exiled, killed, drove out up through the eighties.

So much for "them."

Obviously, not all Muslims did these things or support them. Take a look at Kashmir, the recent discovery of mass graves, the one hundred thousand Indian soldiers, the hideous checkpoints. Think about the young Kashmir men who want an end to the occupation.

Think about the majority of Muslims in India.

Think about Israelis and Palestinians.
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Question: Can there be peace in the world with Religion?

Muslim invaders destroyed thousands of Hindu temples and then built their victory mosques on top of them. Legal action similar to Ayodhya needs to be taken to retake the land resurrect the Hindu temples.

Rama, Krishna, Shiva are all mythical figures who were characters of an epic story rather than actual people. So the story of Rama being born on the site of Babri Mosque is just an excuse for Hindu fanatics like Aseem Shukla to spread hatred of muslims for the crimes of their fore-fathers. Why does Aseem Shukla ignores the fact that his fellow VHP thugs not just content with tearing that mosque down while Indian Police and Military were silent witnesses, they also butchered 2000 muslims as a bonus in the streets of India, while again the Hindu Police and bureaucracy deliberately turned a blind eye. This judgement smacks of cronyism and innate bias of the Hindus for the muslims. Its kind of indicating muslims to know their place in India. Im sure the Indian muslims will soon follow the Kashmiris in getting themselves rid of this wretched country.

Posted by: yasseryousufi
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While I strongly feel that there is absolutely no need for another mosque or temple on the sub-continent. For that matter there is no need for any place of worship anywhere in the world, as all the religions are fruits of people's fertile imagination. When I say fertile imagination, I mean fertile imaginations fed by cow manure. That said, the following are the facts of the matter:

1) It has been quite categorically established that established that there was an existing temple on the site
2) It was also established quite categorically that Babur had, in keeping with the dominionist world view, built a mosque over the temple.
3) It has also been established without a shadow of a doubt that the Hindus have maintained claim on the site unceasingly, even though they had not received any redress.
4) This particular verdict had been very fair & generous to the Muslims in providing for them a place in the same site for their Mosque.

Speaking of mythical characters every religious character is mythical, except for MO & Joseph Smith. Off them one is certified tyrant the other again a certified charlatan.

rameshraon

Farnaz Mansouri's attempts at hijacking the present discussion by infusing the topic of caste is yet another attempt by someone whose religion is supposedly all about peace, but which facts prove is all about a violent putsch to make the world Muslim.
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You do not mention, but could have and should have, that caste is widespread in Muslim nations, despite the fact that Quoran explicitly condemns caste. Hence, there are the million and one half "sweepers" in Pakistan, whose lives must be seen to be believed, although there has been some progress. Muslim youth, no less, have risen up on this, and, in fact, taken the Christian churches to task for stealing money intended for the Dalit.

Less progress has been made in Bangladeshi on the matter of caste, but there has been some, as in India.
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That Dalits are sought to be "protected and saved" by violent monotheists -- whether Christian or Muslim -- is indeed an irony, but the tragedy is that some Dalits are willing to ignore that and be seduced by petro-dollars and greenbacks.
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The Christians will continue to convert the Dalit; the Catholics are well into the act now. But to say that they are being "seduced by greenbacks" is akin to saying that a woman calls the police because her husband has tried to kill her has been seduced by life. The Dalits want to live. So do you.

Christianity gives to the Dalit relief from caste. In the past, it went nowhere. They remained Dalit. Now, conversion to Christianity has helped not a few to live on this earth.
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EMPHATICALLY, I do NOT support converting the Dalit. Rather I support the conversion of India to a hire morality.

These Christian/Catholic shenanigans are disruptive for India, and India CAN address the Dalit problem more effectively.
____________

Friend, I am NEITHER Muslim nor Christian. I am Jewish. Although Hillel said Judaism rests on love for one's fellow human from which Justice springs, most of us would say that Judaism is founded upon the ideal of JUSTICE. Nevertheless. not all Jews are just. Just as not all Hindus are just.

Dalits/Harijans/Scheduled Castes -- whatever we may call them -- have indeed been oppressed and discriminated against in India. But India and Indians have also struggled hard to remedy the historic inequities and the present day caste inequalities. Farnaz Mansouri's attempts at hijacking the present discussion by infusing the topic of caste is yet another attempt by someone whose religion is supposedly all about peace, but which facts prove is all about a violent putsch to make the world Muslim. In that attempt more Muslims have been killed by Muslims by any others. It is calculated that some 11,000,000 (eleven million) Muslims have been violently killed since 1948, of which 35,000 or 0.3 percent, died during the sixty years of fighting Israel, or just 1 out of every 315 Muslim fatalities. In contrast, over 90 percent of the 11 million who perished were killed by fellow Muslims, according to Gunnar Heinsohn and Daniel Pipes. That Dalits are sought to be "protected and saved" by violent monotheists -- whether Christian or Muslim -- is indeed an irony, but the tragedy is that some Dalits are willing to ignore that and be seduced by petro-dollars and greenbacks.

I'm sure the good doctor is a fine human being. When your country enslaves 250,000,000 people, traffics in them, rapes them, confines them to occupations which included cleaning sewage with their hands, when the religion of that country, the good doctor's religion underwrites the atrocity, and when the good doctor writes on said religion, then the oppressed 250,000,000 are never beside the point.

Since the good doctor has been blogging here, he mentioned the Dalit once (that would be o.n.c.e.). It appears that some Hindus are waiting for India to be viewed as South Africa once was, before they can acknowledge the human sacrificed, raped, enslaved Dalit.

You folks may not have long to wait. The Second INternational Conference on Untouchability was held this year. Dalits who escaped bondage in India have slowly entered the universities in the WEst and published on the inhuman condition.

Ever conscious of money-making much of the west remains silent on the 250,000,000 so as not to offend India. But the West was once silent on South Africa.

In the meantime, the wretched of the earth continue to be trampled underfoot by ignorance, greed, and fear.

The good doctor, like others, may be a part of the problem. On his one Dalit related post, bloggers took him to task for under-stating and minimizing the more horrid facts of the case in point. I don't know. Shukla may also be afraid of the response from co-Hindus, who will do anything to distract from the issue of the Dalits.

They will do anything, say anything to distract from the issue of the Dalit, whose status HInduism underwrites. Doesn't speak well for Hindus, Hinduism, India, the defenders of the status quo, and the rest of the world that stands by.

Doesn't speak well for this doctor, who may heal bodies but contributes to the deal of the world's soul.

Mr. Shukla, thanks for the well written piece. While the court's decision is not entirely satisfactory, I do applaud the response by BJP, VHP & RSS and rest of the Hindu organizations. They have maintained even before the verdict and after, that we should respect the verdict - whatever it states and utilize the historic event to build harmony in the nation. Very noble indeed.

response to farnaz.when you do not have a point to make you try to disract. in this issue where did 'dalits' come in to the picture. In india there are laws against discrimination and reservatios to help the disadvanteged.muslims should learn to live peacefully amongst there own 'castes' shia, sunni ahmedias,wahabi' etc etc.you bomb each other's mosques.court decision was not perfect but good compromise.we must move on.
shukla's article was a good one highlighting the historical facts. legally it has been documented that a large temple complex was demolished before building a 'mosque'in a place called 'Ayodhya'from tme immemorial known to be the birth place of lord rama, just to hurt the feeling of the hindus. that is what the despots did. mr. shukla forgot to mention the 'temple mount' in isreal and recently about 'Bamian' in afganistan in his list of what muslims have done. So far i am very impressed by the way the indian public has responded. muslim community hs responded very responsiblyto the verdictlet us keep it that way.

the amount of money and time and the effort put forth by extremist groups wasted on this issue could have been better used to educate, develop, and uplift rural India. imagine all the money spent on security and military troops that could've been more effectively used to help village kids learn job skills or read and write.

also it should be emphasized that ayodhya's local population aren't on the crazy, extremist bandwagon, the same way nyc's local population isn't buying the anti-ground zero mosque hype: http://dharmadeen.com/2010/09/30/ayodhya/

Picture posted in this article is misleading. Its not the lawyers representing Govt. of India or AHC briefing the media. The media center was setup by the district administration to brief the media after verdict is declared, but lawyers from right wing hindu party (akhil bharteeya hindu mahasabha) tresspassed in to the main stage and held the chairs set for DIG and district officials by force. You can see Ravi Shankar Prasad of BJP in court attire in the picture. Even the security personnel doesn't have any clue of what is happening!!!

I applaud the decision of the court. I think the world will find that Islam and Hindu are by text compatible, the Qu'ran mentioning without name a pantheon of deities, and subordinates derogatively and not as the Djinn. You would be foolish to think these entities are not worth mentioning and insisting the are someones imagination. Rama walked the Earth many times in human body. Shiva

Rama, Krishna, Shiva are all mythical figures who were characters of an epic story rather than actual people. So the story of Rama being born on the site of Babri Mosque is just an excuse for Hindu fanatics like Aseem Shukla to spread hatred of muslims for the crimes of their fore-fathers. Why does Aseem Shukla ignores the fact that his fellow VHP thugs not just content with tearing that mosque down while Indian Police and Military were silent witnesses, they also butchered 2000 muslims as a bonus in the streets of India, while again the Hindu Police and bureaucracy deliberately turned a blind eye. This judgement smacks of cronyism and innate bias of the Hindus for the muslims. Its kind of indicating muslims to know their place in India. Im sure the Indian muslims will soon follow the Kashmiris in getting themselves rid of this wretched country.

Lord Rama is almost always rendered as an ahistorical mythological character set in an interesting epic--the judgment terming him a "juristic person," is given in syntax as clumsy as it is empowering. He existed, Hindus can claim with a legal imprimatur, and his birthplace is as real and important as Bethlehem, the Temple Mount or Mecca. It is a jejune claim that a legal judgement affects the faith of a billion Hindus, but Hindus rarely find their faith corroborated in the cold renderings of history or law.
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What a waste of 18 years. India can do well with one less temple and definitely one less mosque. Coming to Rama or Jesus or Abraham, Moses et al are all mythical characters. Just because some musty okd tomes mention their names does not mean they ever existed. They are as real as Hercules. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of Mohammad or Joseph Smith. One was a tyrant,the others a charlatan.

Farnaz,

Your chronic trolling on Dr. Shukla's posts with mindless repetitive gibberish, I hope you realize, actually minimizes the issue of people you callously call, the Dalit (broken person). Most absurd? You've advocated for the Dalit Freedom Network--gee, no agenda there. Just to be sure, we should then assume that your contention is that an evangelical missionary group such as DFN seeking to convert India's most vulnerable with bribes of jobs and education or better yet, miraculously floating Jesus idols (the Hindu murtis, of course will sink by design), is the viable solution? If so, why do we still have Dalit or what most non-political folks prefer to call Scheduled Caste Christians (or scheduled caste Buddhists, Sikhs for that matter)?

A quick google search and, let's see: Dr. Shukla travels to India and performs surgery at some of India's poorest hospitals where a large number of patients are likely people you call broken people. http://www.auanet.org/content/international/exchange-scholars-programs-10.cfm
And, he wrote a brave piece highlighting the very issue of caste-based discrimination right here not too long ago http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/undergod/2010/07/murder_in_the_name_of_honor_and_caste.html

So, Farnaz, that's what Dr. Shukla appears to have done. What have you really done other than hijack the comments section with your Hinduphobic diatribes?

A victory for pluralism that this sacred site is being returned to its original owners, important to not just Hindus, Sikhs, & Jains, but to all people of Indian descent, Muslims of the South & Southeast Asian diaspora, Buddhists in India & SE Asia, & to those who believe in the qualities & virtues of Shri Ram & Sita. The court verdict, in trying to be balanced, provides an opportunity for each community to retain something & live in harmony & compromise.

correction:

I'm Sure Hari-VYASA [pbuh] and Hari-MUHAMMAD [pbuh] would Approve!

Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Aummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Amennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.. AND now sing

EKLAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhtt-i.

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PEACE,PAZ,SHALOM,SALAAM,AHIMSA,MIR, FRIEDEN, ZHINGYU..
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Credits to "JJ", "jack" at: http://www.coneyislandobservatory.com/

cbebop,

I am not Pakistani, but I am aware of caste in both Pakistan and Bangaldesh. As in India, they are the "sweepers," God help them all. The irony is that Islam explicitly condemns caste.

AT present, I am working with two Dalit academics, who have published eloquently on the horror of caste in India, where elderly Dalit still get up on buses to give their seats whatever higher caste Hindu demands them.

The nightmare of the Dalit, who cannot go into Hindu Temples, the human trafficking, the inhuman labor they are confined to has been well documented. The UN shakes its useless head, as do other agencies.

On this thread, Dalit have posted. Like the UN, they do not share your view. Neither does Amnesty INternational.

I cannot see how this horror can end in fifty years, when, as the Dalit who have posted here say, the world does not care. I'm still waiting for this writer's second, more honest article about the problem. It boggles the mind as to how it continues to go ignored. But, then, again, many of them are "darker," are they not.

@FarnazMansouri2

And you must already be aware that India has already had a dalit President and the current Chief Minister of Uttar Pradesh state is also a dalit named Mayawati. Now the fact that she is a corrupt politician who isnt doing much for her Dalit voters is a different topic of discussion but the fact remains that democracy allows Indians to chooses their leaders irrespective of their caste or religion.

@FarnazMansouri2

Yes they can. See thats the beauty of living in a democratic and secular country. Sure there are still incidences of caste discrimination in some parts of India but they have largely been eliminated. Give us Indians another 50 years and I guarantee you that the caste system will be totally eliminated. And from your negative comments which are totally irrelevant to this article I assume that you are a Pakistani. I would like to point to you that the caste system exists in Pakistan as well, not to mention the Ahmadis who are discriminated by your constitution itself as being non-muslims. So before posting such crap look into your own damn country whose formation was based on hatred and religious discrimination.

One point of clarification on Dr. Shukla's understanding of the term "juristic person." Not blaming here -- it's probably not something they covered in medical school.

A juristic person is not a "real" or natural person (read human being), but a legal fiction in which certain rights are accorded to this legally created entity. A corporation can be a juristic person, for example.

In essence, what the court seems to have done is bestow legal status upon God incarnate. Probably wouldn't fly here in the U.S., but different strokes for different folks.

Very interesting. Can any of the two hundred fifty million Dalit, the Untouchables, the wretched of the earth, worship in the Hindu Temple?

Keep us posted. Am awaiting developments.

RECOMMENDATION: On Mass Mutual Destruction

For the Sake of "RAMA" and "GABRIEL" and the Future of Humanity;

It will be best if a Small Nuclear-Bomb was detonated now in the Center of this Mosque/Temple area.

I'm Sure Hari-Krishna[pbuh] and Har-Muhammad [pbuh] would Approve!

Because it will happen in the Future anyway (in a exponential way) so better NOW than later! This is the Prophecy. O' Pre-Apocalyptic FOOOOOLLLS!

King Solomon's idea, is not the same analogy for AYODHYA/Babri Conflict. This is Not a Baby we are talking about, but 'Spilit'ng a [gods] Delusion!

Hence Insanity!

The world is getting smaller and now many far away controversies seem to have an uncomfortable corollary right here at home in America.

For twenty years, most of the Western media has spread its own biased narrative about those Hindu fanatics and the poor Muslim underdog in its coverage of the issue, without ever stepping foot into the "others" shoes or delving even slightly below the surface to understand the complexities, sentitments, etc. -- many media outlets (most guilty - New York Times) going to the extent of calling the burning alive of Hindu women and children in the train that sparked the Godhra riots in 2002 as well as the more recent 11/26 Mumbai Islamist terror attacks as some kind of payback or justified because of the mosque/temple issue.

But how quickly we Americans change our tune when the issue hits right here on our side of the shore. Not even a sacred site in terms of religious significance, see how up in arms we are over the prospect of a mosque being built not even on but near Ground Zero. Can you say pot's been calling the kettle?

I hope the involved Hindu and Muslim groups continue India's pre-colonial and pre-conquest legacy of peaceful inter-religious coexistence and figure out how to get along again.

Oye, Oye...