Pakistan's Facebook ban protects the violent

xz3f2w | May 24, 2010 10:55 PM: "Please read all of the comments from so called civilized westerners..full of venom and negativity towards Muslims and Islam...Wake up Muslims and smell the whole new world..."

From your comments I surmise you are a Pakistani. Many of the commentators are not Americans. Anyone on the internet can log on and comment here. It seems much of the standard hostility between Pakistanis and Indians spill over here. The negativity towards Islam is largely due to the actions of the muslims, and is a global phenomenon. You should check out the comments by chinese, philipinos, japanese, koreans, latin americans, etc. You can find their forums and see their comments on the web easily. Just do a quick search.

Does US and Americans practice free speech? Can anyone say anything and getaway? Freedom of speech as long as it doesn't hurt anyone or spread hatred! Billions of Muslims revere Prophet (swh). Any paintings are not allowed because we do not want idolatry of anykind! If Pakistan really cares about Muslims/Islam, let it not take any money from USA, Let it create a better, brighter and powerful united islamic country...When pakistanis lack self respect and trying to serve the interests of foreigners, you end up ridiculed like this. Please read all of the comments from so called civilized westerners..full of venom and negativity towards Muslims and Islam...Wake up Muslims and smell the whole new world...

Repression is fed by insecurity. People who are truly secure in their beliefs do not support violent repression of ideas they don't agree with no matter how strongly they feel.

Sacrificing freedom is unacceptable no matter which kind of crazy fundamentalist is jumping up and down. Islamic extremists and Christian terrorists (mostly in the anti-choice movement) have no legitimate right to dominate laws, policies, or choices of anyone else. It is high time public officials everywhere stopped caving in to them.

Muslims can be hurt for anything remotely connected to Mohammed but they can do whatever they want in the name of "freedom and artistic expression" against others? Check this out, the whole page, compare the "paintings" on the left to the right.

http://www.hindujagruti.org/activities/campaigns/national/mfhussain-campaign/

It is 2010 and we are still arguing about make believe characters.

The crazy thing is we will probably nuke the hell out of each other over it and wont we be surprised when we all get vaporized and their is nothing their.

I find that rather funny if i don't say so myself.

This is an unneeded controversy in these troubled times. I have to agree with Asma that the correct response for the Pakistani government would have been to roundly condemn the threat against the South Park creators and to come down hard on the folks who foment violence.

I am all for the freedom of speech. I would remind my friends on Facebook to think about the fact that their actions might result in some nutcases killing defenseless innocents in far away lands. Some of this blood will be on our hands.

History has taught us that every religion which foists its way as the "one and only" and relies on codified texts as "the word of God and holds it as absolute truth", has lead to persecution of innocents.

Islamic countries are unique in that many of them have adopted Sharia as the law of the land. I am flabbergasted by rules that dictate that a woman's testimony is worth only half that of a man's. Or that the rape of woman can only be proved by two (or is it four) independent witnesses - which begs the question, what the heck were the witnesses doing instead of saving the woman.

Regards
Murali

Pakistan never loses an opportunity to shift focus to something external so that the Pakistani people do not look at the horrible misery that is life for the vast majority of people in the country.

Seems like those that support or are indifferent to insulting Muslims can use a lesson, not involving violence or other barbarism, in sensitivity and respect. Where is the line drawn? Should Facebook apologize? Is this the same as allowing a Nazi Facebook group to be created? Or a group supporting the murder of Dr.MLKJr? What line can South Park, or anyone for that matter, not cross? Censorship is a useful tool...for those that know how to use it. It seems that no one dose.

I love watch these extremist loons go crazy over stupid stuff.

Hey, you extremist loons, not only did I draw a picture of Muhammed, but I also use pages from the Koran as toilet paper (instead of a handful of rocks like you uncivilized cretins).

Asma, you would have been toast in Pakistan for writing this article ! This is what real freedom is.

This is an ongoing problem. If muslims wish to be treated equally with other citizens of the world, they need to move out of the medieval era. The modern era is characterized by freedom and that includes the right to offend as well being offended. Its time to grow up and join the rest of civilization, if you don't like what someone says: ignore, debate, even denounce, but once you resort to violence you no longer have anything to say to anyone. This includes those 'mainstream' muslims who express vague concerns about violence as being unhelpful. If you wish to be taken seriously, immediately and loudly denounce the extremists and be their foremost enemy instead of offering excuses. In addition, ask if these horrible affronts are simply reactions to muslim extremism and work to counter that and you should find the affronts to die away. By the way, again for those who apparently didn't watch South Park, you were only led to believe Muhammad was dressed as a bear. It was revealed later in the program, the man in the bear suit was Santa Claus.

...what's crazy is you realizing all this and expecting your article to have significant positive impact in Pakistan.

Debchatterjee

What a catharsis for a coward man like you.
sitting behind the veil and taking out filth out of your dirty mind.
The cancer that you have seeps and pains so much that you may not have a good sleep with Islam-phobia. This is a punishment in it self.
What ever you write about Muslims and Islam there are 170 million in India and a large number around you in bengladesh and Pakistan.
You once wrote suggesting to pound Pakistan with Atomic bomb.
You have lived with the Muslims as their subjects for thousand years and have them beside you for several thousand years to come.
Brahmins like you have exploited Indian people by claiming a upper class for your caste, while making the others poor Indians fool.
What you talk to monitor freedom of speech and liberty of USA. Think of your India where Harijan majority have still to subjugate Brahmin crooks and rule over them.
This day will soon come.

Why not raise the stakes a little higher ? I propose that to test the acceptance of Freedom of Speech and Expression (1st Amendment), let Facebook commission a worldwide contest in depicting pictorially scenes from the chapter "Return to Jahiliya" from the novel THE SATANIC VERSES by Salman Rushdie.

Alternatively, an artist could go thru' the earlisest biography of Prophet Muhammad by Ibn Ishaq, and draw the sequential scenes which depict how Asma-bint-Marwan was murdered (her head cut off while she was asleep) by followers of Muhammad.

That would be (selectively) depicting important incidents how Muhammad rose to become a prophet and commanded authority. (More information can be had from Dr. Ali Sina's website Faithfreedom.org).

What Muslims think is that because they have a terrorist/mass-murderer like Osama bin Laden, they can blackmail anyone else who would dare challenge their faith, which indeed is barbaric.

This cannot be allowed a free pass, and that's why more depiction of Propher Muhammad is necessary to test how strongly Americans embrace Free Speech or just buckle under the Islamic threat of terrorism.

THOSE WHO DENY GOD ARE CONCEALERS, IN OTHER WORDS THEY HIDE THE TRUTH, ANOTHER NAME FOR THEM IS KAFIRS. THEY HAVE FREELY OPTED TO DENY THEIR CREATOR INSPITE OF SEEING HIS SIGNS IN HIS CREATION AND IN THEIR OWN SELF.

IT IS ABSURD ON THEIR PART WHEN THEY QUOTE FROM QURAN - A BOOK IN WHICH THEY DONT BELIEVE AT ALL.WHILE QURAN PROMISES HELL FIRE FOR SUCH UNFAITHFUL CREATURES.

SUCH PEOPLE SPREAD MISCHIEF AMONG THE WORLD GREAT RELIGIONS AS THEY HAVE NOTHING POSITIVE TO OFFER.
CRITICISM OUT OF JEALOUSY DONT MAKE A STUPID PERSON LOOK WISE. IT IS HARD TO TREAT SUCH COMPLEXES AND MENTAL SICKNESSES.

WHAT NONSENSE THEY TALK ABOUT RUMI AND HIS LOVE. RUMI WAS NOT AN EXCEPTION. EVERY LIVING MUSLIM HAS SUCH RELATIONSHIP WITH ALLAH, 24 HOURS A DAY. TO BREAK THIS RELATIONSHIP OF LOVE IS HARD BY THROWING ANY KIND OF BAIT. SUCH MOVES ARE OF COURSE DEVILISH AND DOOMED TO FAIL.

Rohit57:

"The sufi poet Jalaluddin Rumi made the same point. So religion has a universal side - you just need to look for it."

Nonsense. No he did not. Do not quote Rumi as given by Coleman Barks. I bet that is the only Rumi you have ever read.
*********************
http://www.religiondispatches.org/books/979/found_in_translation%3A_how_a_thirteenth-century_islamic_poet_conquered_america
A poet himself, Barks “re-Englishes” existing translations, releasing, in his own words, “the fire and ecstasy of Rumi’s ghazals” from the stale confines of their scholarly translations. But because Barks himself has become a palpable presence in these ghazals, some critics have lambasted him for the liberal manner in which he has popularized Rumi.

In the eyes of his detractors, Barks has taken offensive liberties with his quote-unquote translations, disrobing Rumi from some of his more doctrinal attire, and transforming him into such an abstract sprite that any Western reader can easily exploit his icon to sanctify whatever carnal impulse they happen to be experiencing at the moment. Barks opens the door, critics object, to a la la land of no-rules Islam, a playground of exotic wisdom that conflates Sufism with Buddhism, with Taoism, with organic broccoli, with LSD. In Rumi: Past and Present, East and West, Franklin D. Lewis writes that Barks tends to “present Rumi as a guru rather calmly dispensing words of wisdom, ....
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So go ahead show Rumi's words where he even glancingly suggests that "All paths are Allah's paths"!!! I will bet you do not even know that in Islam Allah is a Proper Noun. It is THE name of the ilha. And Quran is quite explicit in stating:

004.048
YUSUFALI: Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed.

@Rohit57:
"Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 183781, "

Now I wonder why the U.S. Dep't of Justice would put out statistics that you are citing? Think about it. What does that mean to you? I wonder.

There is a difference between family violence existing in all cultures and violence driven by religious diktat. As you try to broad brush away the violence against women and little girls in Islam, think about why do you want to condemn them to "honor killings", FGM, child marriages, complications of pregnancies to little girls, etc? These are some of the violence that is rampant and peculiar to Islam because of the example set by Muhammad. Religious muslims are very resistant to setting a lower age limit to marriage for little girls because Muhammad set the example by marrying a pre-pubertal girl of six. Regardless of what the arguments were in the 7th century arabia, why should humanity abandon the little muslim children across the globe because the Muslim Mullahs do not want to change with the times?

It is obvious that you want to treat the Muslims as the"other" and you do not have any hesitation to leave them to their own mess as long as you are not disturbed ... to hell with the millions of little muslim children. Is that it?

Rohit57,
One more thing.
The islamic countries that have had women leaders like Bangladesh, Indonesia, and Pakistan are heavily influenced by Hindu culture and were majority Hindu historically (relatively recent by larger historical trends, such as culture - and Pakistan is moving in the wrong direction on women's issues as it has become more islamic).

The countries such as Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc. which are truly islamic without Hindu influence won't be having a female leader for quite a while.

Think about it.

Rohit57,
You are full of knowledge, some incorrect and some incorrectly applied.

You said Hinduism (Sanatan Dharma) is polytheistic, which is a repetition of an incorrect statement. The Rig Veda states "God is one, the sages call him by many names." This is a very well known and often quoted verse from Chapter 10. (I'm surprised you don't know this.) There is no older text than the Rig Veda. The rest of the story about an Aryan people invading or migrating is a recent creation based on linguistic conjecture by Sir William Jones in 1786. There is no substantial evidence in archeology or mythology, but makes for a useful narrative for some people.

So, the statement that Hinduism is polytheistic is simply wrong. It is based on a monistic philosophy. It may be called monotheistic, but it is deeper than that. The "many gods" is a translation error, nonaccidental or accidental, for the concept more closely described as deities or devas.

And akafir is correct. The laws of Manu is Smriti, not Shruti, literature of Hinduism. No one reads it, follows it, or keeps a copy at home -- unlike the Koran. It is one of thousands of books of Hinduism which are thousands of years old. Hinduism allows for questions, reform, and modernization. The Laws of Manu quotes may be useful in an argument to create a false sense of moral equivalence, but this is not the case between islam and Hinduism. Tolerant and intolerant philosophies are fundamentally different.

Approximately 1.3 million women and 835,000 men are physically assaulted by an intimate partner annually in the United States.

Patricia Tjaden & Nancy Thoennes, U.S. Dep't of Just., NCJ 183781,
------------
Somehow I am skeptical that all this violence is being performed only by American Muslims! And note that women are also into this game.

The bottom line is that the "Islamic" countries have too much religion in their daily lives. Why are they called Islamic, why not just countries with large Muslim populations. Right there is the problem.

Just remember, religion can play an important part in person's life, but religion is based on faith, and not facts. Hence, every body must question his/her religion, and ask if certain things make sense. And how a religion can be improved.

ref: Washington Post book review.
four excerpts:
p. 47 paperback issue:
"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"
Posted by: YEAL9 | May 22, 2010 2:55 PM
-------------

Have you seen the movie Heaven on Earth starring Preity Zinta who is beaten by her husband? But in that movie, the family is not Muslim, it is Sikh.

I do feel that Muhammad did a great disservice to Islam by saying that he was the last prophet. Plus he laid down details on practically every aspect of life.

That fact makes it very difficult for Muslims to change their customs, although they do seem to manage.

Bangladesh, Pakistan and Indonesia, all three Muslim majority countries, have already had female heads of state. "Progressive" France and US have yet to show a female head of state.

I think it is fine to criticize some things in Islam and Pakistan. But we have to show some sense of perspective.

Personally I am more worried about Pakistan's nuclear weapons than I am about the fact that they are Muslims.

S D Rodrian
All religions are local.
Only science is universal.
Posted by: sdr1
-------------
This is not actually true. In the Bhagavad Gita Krishna says explicitly, "All paths are my path," thereby endorsing traditions different from sanatana Hinduism. The sufi poet Jalaluddin Rumi made the same point. So religion has a universal side - you just need to look for it.

As for Science, of the main human values of Love, Morality, Spirituality, and Truth, science addresses, at most, Truth.

Perhaps not even truth in its entirety because it does seem that the philosophical problem of qualia cannot be addressed by science. There are other philosophical issues which seem beyond the reach of science.

Science is important and needs to be taken seriously. But let it not become like the dentist who thinks that flossing your teeth is all of life.

There is more to our human dimension than science (or flossing). What can approach it? I do not know. Probably not dogmatic religion.

But religious and tolerant people have probably the wisest view here.

Muhammad continues to inspire butchery today
even in the highest annals of Islamic countries'
law:

... Article 295A of the Pakistani Penal Code
punishes "deliberate and malicious acts
intended to outrage religious feelings of any
class by insulting its religion or religious
beliefs." Specifically regarding the Prophet,
Article 295C states, "Whoever by words, either
spoken or written, or by visible representation
or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation,
directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name
of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon
him) shall be punished with death, or
imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable
to fine."

What honest man or woman can possibly deny that
this vicious 5th century cutthroat and outrageous
sexual pervert is still inspiring the murder of
innocent human beings 16 centuries after his own
death? Does this alone not qualify him as the most
notorious butcher of men in all human history!

S D Rodrian

All religions are local.
Only science is universal.

.

Rohit57:

"Here below are some things from the Laws of Manu who was a defining figure for Hindu customs. They progress from the positive to more "sexist". My point is that Manu's views towards women are not all that different from Muhammad's."

As I understand, Manu and his work stand discarded by the Indians at present. I do not think there is any of his "laws" in the Indian Constitution. Are there? How many hindus at present think that Manu and his laws are valid or should be accorded any validity? How many Muslims think that the word of the Quran is perfect and valid for all time? Go on you tube and find dozens of Imams declaring and teaching how to beat women because Allah tells them that is the way humans should be.

For peace and mutual respect, Muslims need to put their Muhammad in perspective as Manu has been done so people can move into the 21st century, and not go around killing and threatening to kill anyone who dares to draw a cartoon of Muhammad.

For those Muslims who were not allowed to read Sir Salam Rushdie's book, "Satanic Verses"

An excerpt: e.g. p. 376, paperback issue?? -

"The faithful lived by lawlessness, but in those years Mahound - or should one say the Archangel Gibreel? - should one say Al-Lah? - became obsessed by law.
Amid the palm-trees of the oasis Gibreel appeared to the Prophet and found himself spouting rules, rules, rules, until the faithful could scarcely bear the prospect of any more revelation, Salman said, rules about every damn thing, if a man farts let him turn his face to the wind, a rule
about which hand to use for the purpose of cleaning one's behind.

It was as if no aspect of human existence was to be left unregulated, free. The revelation - the recitation- told the faithful how much to eat, how deeply they should sleep, and which sexual
positions had received divine sanction, so that they leamed that sodomy and the missionary position were approved of by the archangel, whereas the forbidden postures included all those in which the female was on top.

Gibreel further listed the permitted and forbidden subjects of conversation, and earmarked the parts of the body which could not be scratched no matter how unbearably they might itch. He vetoed the consumption of prawns, those bizarre other-worldly creatures which no member of the faithful had ever seen, and required animals to be killed slowly, by bleeding, so that by experiencing their deaths to the full they might arrive at an understanding of the meaning of their lives, for it is only at the moment of death that living creatures understand
that life has been real, and not a sort of dream.

And Gibreel the archangel specified the manner in which a man should be buried, and how his property should be divided, so that Salman the Persian got to wondering what manner of God this was that soundedso much like a businessman.

This was when he had the idea that
destroyed his faith, because he recalled that of course Mahound himself had been a businessman, and a damned successful one at that, a person to whom organization and rules came naturally, so
how excessively convenient it was that he should have come up with such a very businesslike archangel, who handed down the management decisions of this highly corporate, if noncorporeal, God."

If this was such a major issue for the Muslims, how is it that all the other Islamic states (the Middle East countries, Malaysia, and Indonesia) have simply chosen to look the other way.

Relative to Saudi Arabia, UAE, and other GCC states, Pakistan is just a little country full of families that at some relatively recent point of time converted to Islam, you could call it a "Jaani come lately". I suppose when you are sitting on the fence, all this "holier than thou" nonsense gives you a feeling of belonging and makes you feel wanted. Poor dearies.

From a Muslim scholar who was driven from Islam:

From- Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography, "Infidel" (a book banned in Islamic theocracies)

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."

ref: Washington Post book review.
four excerpts:

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam".

Here below are some things from the Laws of Manu who was a defining figure for Hindu customs. They progress from the positive to more "sexist". My point is that Manu's views towards women are not all that different from Muhammad's.

From the laws of Manu:

"Women must always be honored and respected by the father, brother, husband and brothers-in-law who desire their own welfare.”

“If the female members live in grief, the family is destroyed. If the female members are happy, the family flourishes in all directions.”

“Women shall receive one-quarter share of the inheritance of their parents. If a man has no sons, his daughter may inherit everything he had.”

“Brothers should give one-forth of their inheritance to their sisters for their sisters’ dowries.”

“In childhood a female must be subject to her father, in youth to her husband, and when her lord is dead, to her sons; a woman must never be independent.”

“A father sins unless he marries his daughter off when she reaches puberty.”

“Women do not care for beauty, nor is their attention fixed on age; they give themselves to the handsome as well as to the ugly just for the fact that he is a man.”

“A husband should be worshiped as a God.”

Akafir says, "No matter how you read it, it is extremely sexist for the 21st century".
---------
But in the first place, the 21st century belongs to ALL of us, to the US, yes, but also to China, to Russia, to India and even to Pakistan. We have to work together to define that century.

We cannot allow America to say, "The 21st century belongs to us, and you should live by our values or you are backward." 21st century is merely a time period, and all of us posting and reading are IN IT. It belongs to ALL of us.

Also, since Muhammad wrote more than a thousand years ago, you cannot hold him responsible to respect the values of the 21st century.

The roles of men and women were different at one time. Even in the US, among fundamentalist Christians, the division of roles is accepted by both genders. The traditional role of men towards women has been like the role of a parent towards a child. That is now out of date and will go. But it existed pretty much everywhere at one time.

The main issue now is amity between Hindus and Muslims and others. That must be pursued with all means at our disposal. That does not mean we give up the pursuit of truth.

But it does mean that we say the truth only at a proper time, and we do not ridicule someone else's deeply held beliefs.

I think India was wise to ban Rushdie's books. He is a smart man and deserves the fame he has. But India does not need the trouble his writings would surely create.

Asma T. Uddin says, "the ban is resented by many, if not most, Pakistanis, who fear its slippery slope consequences. "
----------------
But there are slippery slopes in both directions.

When I was young, it was illegal to buy contraceptives in Massachusetts. Also books by Henry Miller and D.H. Lawrence were "banned in Boston."

Such bans are now unconstitutional, but, we have now ended up with more than a million abortions every year! 40% of American babies are now born out of wedlock.

There used to be discrimination and violence against gays. Those days are gone. But now gays are campaigning to legalize gay marriages.

My point is that there is a slippery slope in BOTH directions. The middle way is the best way where we have discipline but not oppression.

But for the middle way to exist and be stable, both sides have to respect it.

We want Afghan women to be able to read and write. Are we also asking that they should be able to have abortions without informing the father of the baby (as is the case in the US)?

Compromise is good, but a compromise can only exist if the "progressives" give up their idea that the whole world will some day practice THEIR values (which are to them the "right values" even though they did not come from Allah).

@Rohit57:

How Indians handle their 13% (and growing ) Muslim population is upto them. Ofcourse there should be peace among the non-muslims and Muslims around the globe. There should not be suicide bombings in Chechneya, Dagestan, Uzebekistan, China, Indonesia, Philipines, India, Pakistan, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc. Hopefully, the "misunderstanders" of Islam will stop killing people in the way of Allah (fi sabeel Allah ).

Quran 4.34:
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.
SHAKIR: Men are the maintainers of women because Allah has made some of them to excel others and because they spend out of their property; the good women are therefore obedient, guarding the unseen as Allah has guarded; and (as to) those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them; then if they obey you, do not seek a way against them; surely Allah is High, Great.

No matter how you read it, it is extremely sexist for the 21st century. You claim: "I am afraid that you are distorting what Muhammad said. The verse starts by saying that "men are the protectors and maintainers of women". You did not quote that."

How is what Jailkkhosla said a distortion. Allah clearly tells men to beat women if the men "fear" desertion!!! Why should any self respecting and independent woman accept the sexist assumption that men maintain and protect her?

Respect ... yes but based upon honesty and truth and not because you have accepted the dhimmi mentality that if you speak truthfully about Islam then the muslims go beserk and hold your civil peace hostage. That is the reason why India was the first country to ban Rushdie's books.

Present day Pakistan which was part of India suffered violent Islamic crusades from Arabia, Turkey and the rest of Muslim nations beginning around 800 AD. It continues to suffer from brutal violence in the name of Islam and the irony is Muslims and most of liberal Western media call Muslims the "victims" and call Islam a "religion of peace"!

When you grow up in the US, there is a rhyming couplet we learn as children.

Sticks and stones can break my bones,

But words can never hurt me.

It is too bad that many in the Ummah can't tell the difference. Perhaps that chip on the shoulder attitude is the result of a deeply justified inferiority complex.

Clyde says:
“What the Freedom of Speech people are doing would be offensive for anybody: nobody likes being called a monkey (and the Pakistani government apparently feels the need to censure the people who are calling others monkeys).”

Accordingly Pakistan should censure the Quran since it described the Jews as monkeys as shown below.
Quran 2:65
YUSUFALI: And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected

The Arabic idol Allah cannot be God and to associate this idol with God is a major indication of ignorance on the part of Muslims.
Here is one of the many reasons why the Arabic idol Allah cannot be God.
in the Islamic book, the Koran. Allah says in verse 4.34 that husbands may beat up their wives.
The true God would dictate such an evil command.
Posted by: jailkkhosla
=================
I am afraid that you are distorting what Muhammad said. The verse starts by saying that "men are the protectors and maintainers of women". You did not quote that.

It also says that men should first punish ill behaved women by refusing the share their beds and only if necessary to beat them lightly.

Anyway, there is no reason to think that this verse comes from Allah. Muhammad was the transmitter (or so they say) of God's message, and some things may have been "lost in translation."

Also Islam does not have awful things like untouchability which Hinduism has practiced.

So as a Hindu (which I presume you are) try to work for friendship between Hindus and Muslims. And friendship begins with respect.

The other path will be the graveyard of all, both Hindus and Muslims.

India can be a very powerful and successful country, but only if Hindus and Muslims work together.

The Arabic idol Allah cannot be God and to associate this idol with God is a major indication of ignorance on the part of Muslims.

Here is one of the many reasons why the Arabic idol Allah cannot be God.

in the Islamic book, the Koran. Allah says in verse 4.34 that husbands may beat up their wives.

The true God would dictate such an evil command.

I agree with most of what you say, but I question "Which is a provocative and inciteful statement and implies that the Muslim god does not exist."
-----------
Surely there is no such thing as the "Muslim God". If God is a Muslim then he did not exist before the 7th century (since Islam did not exist) and that is absurd. God by his very nature must be timeless.

Thus the number of Gods must be either 0 (if you are an atheist) or 1 (if you are a believer). There cannot be two all powerful beings.

Hindus are thought to believe in many Gods, but Hinduism has been a monotheistic religion for thousands of years. Its precursor, Vedic Hinduism of the Indo-Aryans, was polytheistic like the religions of the Greeks or the Norse. But eventually the (Indo)-Aryans abandoned polytheism as a basic belief, regarding their various gods as manifestations of the same God.

Thus if God and Allah both exist, they are the same.

I think Facebook should just ban Pakistan. In fact, I think it would be fantastic if most US sites either blocked web browsers from Muslim countries or logged their IP addresses and sent the information to the authorities.

I'm also going to overtly say that all Muslim immigrants should be sent home and that no more should be let in to the West. Islam is an antidemocratic culture which has not evolved a Western, modern variety.

In Western culture, it is no longer allowed to kill someone or go rioting and try to justify it with "but he offended my religion" or "but she brought shame to our family". It is no longer allowed to be taught in schools that all Jews are the enemy of society and are simultaneously communists as well as capitalist parasites.

Not all cultures are the same. They don't have to be. I guess we've forgotten that culture isn't just about what holidays you celebrate and what color your food is, it's about differences in basic values. We don't have to like each other, and we don't have to live together.

A little sensitivity to the Muslim religion would go a long way here.

This Facebook business and cartoons, etc is viewed by Muslim in the following way - "if your god really exists then how come he does not do something about THIS?". Which is a provocative and inciteful statement and implies that the Muslim god does not exist.

The cartoon writers THINK that they are standing up for freedom of speech (i.e. opposing to a situation where the government controls speech in order to control and repress and exploit the people) when in reality the Freedom of Speech person's statement is calling Muslims monkeys.

What the Freedom of Speech people are doing would be offensive for anybody: nobody likes being called a monkey (and the Pakistani government apparently feels the need to censure the people who are calling others monkeys).

I hope that everyone finds peace and happiness.

What freedom of speech, west is talking about????

What if someone in western world draws a funny cartoons of Jew's slaughtering by Nazi. I think that should be free speech too!!!!! but no it's called ANTI ANTISEMITISM and is punishable under the same, law that allow mockery of other's religions. People are serving long sentences for such acts.

A stupid Article and for sure a stupid lady.

The Pakistan Ban, in fact, was very effective and has led to the apology of page creator as well as closure of the page by facebook. I personally (even though I was not a big user of facebook) have deactivated my account and I hope most of muslim brothers do the same.

I am not a Muslim and I am fully aware of the dangers of Islamic fundamentalism. And yet, I feel that only one side of the issue is being discussed. I will give you an example.

Suppose you are giving a dinner party and you decide to speak about something which is going to cause a ruckus. Let us say that Aunt Harriet had a one night stand ten years ago and Uncle Bob does not know about this. You decide to mention this. After all, don't you have free speech rights?

But don't be surprised if your dinner turns out to be a disaster and your aunt and uncle, who were happily married, have now broken up.

FREE SPEECH HAS LIMITS!

The Buddha, who was not a Muslim :),
said:

"Aware of the suffering caused by unmindful speech and the inability to listen to others, I am committed to cultivate loving speech and deep listening in order to bring joy and happiness to others and relieve others of their suffering. Knowing that words can create happiness or suffering, I am committed to learn to speak truthfully, with words that inspire self-confidence, joy, and hope. I am determined not to spread news that I do not know to be certain and not to criticise or condemn things of which I am not sure. I will refrain from uttering words that can cause division or discord, or that can cause the family or the community to break. I will make all efforts to reconcile and resolve all conflicts, however small."

Non-muslims need to show more awareness of Muslim sensitivities, and Muslims need to show more awareness of the western dedication to full and free pursuit of truth.

For instance, obviously Muhammad's parents were not Muslims (HE founded the religion). Yet saying that they were not Muslims can bring you in trouble in some Muslim countries.

Muslims need to respect the search for truth.

But non-Muslims need to confine their speech about Islam and Muhammad to a sober, polite, and truth seeking mode.

Ask hard questions about Muslims and Islam and Muhammad. That is your right. But do not engage in pointless ridicule.

"That's actually a good point. I stand corrected."

Thank You! I admire your uprightness~!

I dont mind standing up for the weak. Thats what my religion tells me. The Cartoons of 1930's are regarded as one of the more effective tool used by Nazi's to dehumanize Jews. Thats why I say you guys are playing with fire.

*****
That's actually a good point. I stand corrected.

"So you're saying cartoons caused the gassing of Jews by Germans who believed that their way was the one permissible? Well, it's nice to hear you sticking up for the Jewish culture...good for you!"

I dont mind standing up for the weak. Thats what my religion tells me. The Cartoons of 1930's are regarded as one of the more effective tool used by Nazi's to dehumanize Jews. Thats why I say you guys are playing with fire. There has always been an undercurrent of racism and hatred in Europe for anyone who is unlike them. Nazism and Facism are the babies of Europe.

As long as she's ok living as a dog, I got no complains~!

You should see the Westminster dog show sometime...we should all live that well.

"It's just a cartoon dude."

Go read some History sicko! The Nazi's used cartoons as a vital tool to numb the senses of Germans before gassing Jews.
***
So you're saying cartoons caused the gassing of Jews by Germans who believed that their way was the one permissible? Well, it's nice to hear you sticking up for the Jewish culture...good for you!

"That's gotta be considered good news as American love their dogs and usually treat them better than their kids. M Vick went to prison for 2 years for killing dogs, I betcha those guys at BP oil do less time for killing 1/3 of the American coastline."

As long as she's ok living as a dog, I got no complains~!

"It's just a cartoon dude."

Go read some History sicko! The Nazi's used cartoons as a vital tool to numb the senses of Germans before gassing Jews.

Can you deny that this event was hijacked by Islamophobes and racist bigots to spew the most obscene hatred on Islam and its most revered figure.

It's just a cartoon dude.

Who the heck are you to criticize this decision? The racist thugs of west you're trying to please care for you and other expats less than they would care about their dogs, feeding off their crumbs.

That's gotta be considered good news as American love their dogs and usually treat them better than their kids. M Vick went to prison for 2 years for killing dogs, I betcha those guys at BP oil do less time for killing 1/3 of the American coastline.

RE: "Kalama e Taiabah"

Isn't that what Frodo says in Shelob's cave to start the light of the star of Elendil?

re:I don't care what religion you are. If you lack a sense of humor about it, and your Deity, you're doing it wrong. If you put laws on the books about how everyone must worship the same crap, you're a fool, no matter what else you claim. That applies to Christians a great deal of the time as well as Muslims. You and your magic dead guys...

*****
This guy knows more about religion than millions of mullahs, imams, bishops, popes,and minsters could ever dream of knowing.

I piety over persons who sell their conscience to fill their stomach.
Asma is one such person who went far away for good life. In this young age where she prides to show her big eyes with "Surma" in them, she do not know what the life is meant for.
All that glitters is not gold.
What to talk of freedom and religion and acts of others, if she just ponders over the meaning of "Kalama e Taiabah" she will discover a new universe - much worth then any other benefit.

RE: Who is this Asma T. Uddin:

She is an employee of a Christian organization based in USA. This is part of her job to write articles against Islam and Muslims.

*****
All of that may be true but it does not change the fact that blasphemy is not a crime and probably not a sin. Nobody went blind from seeing drawings of mohummad and the only people who went nuts over this were probably nuts to begin with.

Pakistan is bastion of intolerance, violence and hatred towards non-Muslims. They decimated the native non-Muslim population and now insult the remaining by calling themselves an Islamic republic.

Yes, it is ironic to notice that we did not hear of bans in Saudi Arbia or Iran.

What is an Indian identity?
Tobe Dravidian or Aryans?
Arabs or non Arabs makes no difference.
The Muslims find their identity in Islam and their role model in the traditions of their Prophet(SWW).
Pakistanis do suffer but this is because of their own wrong doings and evils.

When the Pakistanis abandoned their Indian identity they latched on other identities to fill the gap. They pretend to be more Arab than the Arabs and more Muslim than the Arabs. The Arabs, on the other hand, prefer the Indians over the Pakistanis whom they view as insincere who give only lip service to the Arab and Muslim causes yet too opportunistic to the point of being “lackeys of the Western Imperialists”.

Who is this Asma T. Uddin:

She is an employee of a Christian organization based in USA. This is part of her job to write articles against Islam and Muslims.
Her boss Kevin Hasson is a 1985 magna cum laude graduate of the University of Notre Dame Law School, and also holds a Masters Degree in theology from Notre Dame. He is a member of the Board of Directors of the Bible Literacy Project, publishers of the curriculum The Bible and Its Influence for public high school literature courses.

further:
"Jews and Religion in the American Public Square – A program initiated and funded by The Pew Charitable Trusts as part of their larger project looking at changes in the relationship between religion and public life in the United States."
Center for Jewish Community Studies, continued a three-year, $1,250,000 program initiated and funded by The Pew Charitable Trusts as part of their larger project looking at changes in the relationship between religion and public life in the United States."
and Kavin wrote an article:From China to Jersey City: Religious Pluralism, Religious Liberty, and Human Rights in the Book "Religion as a public good" published by these funds.
Now you can see why Asra sweats to write such things about Pakistan.

All you find is a paid worker's job

I don't care what religion you are. If you lack a sense of humor about it, and your Deity, you're doing it wrong. If you put laws on the books about how everyone must worship the same crap, you're a fool, no matter what else you claim. That applies to Christians a great deal of the time as well as Muslims. You and your magic dead guys...

Pakistan's religious laws are primitive and feudal. They need to grow up, because the rest of the world is not going to change just to make them happy. If I owned Facebook, Comedy Central, or any other company that offended these stupid, stupid people, I'd just cut off Pakistan entirely, and leave it that way. Sort of the corporate version of 'bite me, cause you really don't matter at all'. That's something thats true of corporations & people that isn't true of governments. People and corporations can freely choose to have nothing to do with idiots when they wish to not do business with them.

I wonder, do they like scorn better than humor? I can do both...

Clearthinking1/Debchatterji the Hindu Brahmin from Calcutta and Akafir and all of this sort who litter this place with duplicate names.

(He may have several faces but the devil is same.)
Your sickness is not about liberty freedom and democracy but a pain which is due to the separation of a part of India which is now Pakistan.
This Deb the Brahmin once wrote that an atomic bomb should be dropped on Pakistan.Now he got cramps in stomach to favor Asma for freedom and liberty in Pakistan.

Clearthinking1 and Akafir: You brag on your pseudo wisdom, but you may also know that a doctor do operate a patient to chop-off his leg, so to save him from cancer.

Clearthinking is the Hindu Version of YEAL/CCNL. He has just 2 or 3 idiotic posts that he posts on every topic about Islam.

(Asma is an American, not a Pakistani. That is why she seems to hold the rule of law and freedom of expression higher than the tribal, intolerant, and discriminatory laws of Pakistan.) As for the koran...

WHO IS MORE INTOLERANT & INSULTING?
Islam inherently believes in insulting, hurting, or even killing nonmuslims (kafirs, infidels...)

Here are a couple of examples of the many quotes from the koran that talk of violence toward non-muslims.

And don't forget the history of violence wherever islam has been and the bloody borders of islam today.

The "Islamic Republic of Pakistan" (real full name) is the epicenter of islamic terrorism and source of most of these murderers.

5:33
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"

9:5
"So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush."

These quotes are directly from the koran, which CANNOT BE QUESTIONED BY ANY MUSLIM. Otherwise he will be considered an apostate and sentenced to death.

Where is there room for compromise?

Pakistanis have a unique problem. They have a 62 year identity based only on Islam. They have no other identity, and are obsessed with this which makes them the most fanatic.
Pakistanis know their forefathers were Hindus who converted to islam out of cowardice or political expediency. They are not Persian or Arabic, and they are looked down upon by both. Egyptians, Indonesians, and other muslims have not had to reject their historical identity like Pakistanis.

EXPERIMENTS IN POLITICAL SCIENCE ARE DIFFICULT, BUT PAKISTAN & INDIA ARE A RARE EXAMPLE. People of the same DNA and genes that share common languages, rituals, and cultures (e.g. Punjabi, Sindhi, etc..) are separated by religion. In just 60 years, there have been clear results. India (based on Hinduism and Vedanta) is a tolerant, pluralistic, vibrant, nonaggressive democracy. Progress is seen in politics, economics, education, etc… India has had Presidents who are Muslim, Hindu, Dalit, female; Prime ministers who are Sikh, Hindu, female; Defense ministers who are Christian, Hindu, Sikh; powerful politicians are even Italian Catholics like Sonia Gandhi. More progress needs to made in many places in Indian society, but even in America Blacks had very limited rights till the 1960’s and now Obama is president. Tolerant peaceful societies make progress.

In contrast, Pakistan has become an increasingly intolerant and violent society. Pakistan used to have 40% Hindus, and now it is only 1%. The culture of Hindus of tolerance and peacefulness has made even Muslims in India relatively peaceful when compared with dominantly Islamic nations.

Pakistanis have no common identity – except hatred of India. The members of this society do not feel a common bond, which is necessary to make progress. All that is left is a false sense of unity and statehood, which has promoted Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism. And this is a recipe for disaster

Asma:

Good for you. Hope more and more Pakistanis acquire a mindset like yours. Pakistan would be a different place.

@Yasseryousufi:
"Who the heck are you to criticize this decision?"
And this is right after you use "democratic"!! Asma as an individual has all the right to criticize this decision. That is part of democracy which you obviously do not understand. No wonder you do not have a clue about free speech either.

The Pakistani society acting through its government again proved the duplicitous character of Islam. When they ban things it is ok, when a minaret is banned, that is bad. When they attack other religions, it is simply stating what is in the koran. When others attack Islam it is evil.... then, of course, there rises the voice, you are bad so we can be bad, the ultimate impoverishment of moral principle.

Lack of an educated populace leads to an uneducated superstitious judiciary. And remember, still the islamists are killing Pakistanis because they are not islamic enough.

I welcome the new muslim that says we all have equal right to discuss, criticize, and laugh. The islamist that says they can hate because their koran justifies hatred of the infidel is intolerant and needs to be intolerated.

hariaum

"Draw Muhammad" Day was not silly. It was very, very serious and thank God a country where Muslims are in charged rightly recognized this declaration for what it was and stopped its happening on their watch. "The weakest of faith is to hate it in your heart". They used their hands-bravo to the Pakistanis!!!!!!!!

Enlightened_Joe,

You fail to understand my point, the people in Pakistan in general are not protesting this closure 'cept for a few hippie junkies who the writer quotes to create a false impression. Its the Job of responsible Governments to limit access to information thats deemed harmfull. Thats why porn movies aren't shown on mainstream entertainment channels even though there's a market for it.

Can you deny that this event was hijacked by Islamophobes and racist bigots to spew the most obscene hatred on Islam and its most revered figure? Didn't the woman who started this movement displayed her disgust at the content of cartoons she saw being recieved? She apologised for starting this movement and said she had no idea it would turn into a hate campaign against muslims. Dont you understand how this hatred and dis-information transforms into pre-emptive wars and carpet bombings of innocent people. How easily were the American people sold the lies before the criminal attack on Iraq. Those 1 million innocent people who died in this war of treachery and deciet would have been sitting in their homes safe and sound had the American people not followed its leadership to shock and awe a totally innocent nation.

This is how you numb the senses of your populace. By dehumanizing the other side to the point where their sufferings do not matter.

"Yet Pakistan's approach is deeply flawed as it protects the wrong party and provides the wrong incentives. The Facebook ban appeases rather than controls violent extremists, giving them license to react violently."

Asma, excellent article, full support.

PS - Are you married?

Asma:
You are one of the sane voices on this subject. I congratulate you for this bold step. You definitely put all the apologists to shame. Those mealy mouthed people that enable the wackjobs. YOU GO GIRL. HIP HIP HOORAY.

The real underlying issue is the concept of blasphemy itself which makes criticism of religion off limits. First, who says what is blasphemous when people have different beliefs? Denying the divinity of Jesus is blasphemous to Christians so the Christians should bring all Muslims to court who deny this. Hindus who deny the message of Mohammad and reject Allah as their god are guilty of blasphemy. And so on and so on. I am sorry if Muslims are offended by Draw Mohammad day but, to be honest, as a non-believer I find a great deal of the Quran and Muslim beliefs to be greatly offensive (and dangerous). Drawing some cartoons in no way limits the ability of any Muslim to practice their faith.

I whole-heartedly agree with Asma when she says the wrong people are being punished. Punish the violent behavior, not expressions that offend. Asma and other Muslims who are offended should, by all means, express their outrage at what they feel is offensive. In fact, it is almost an obligation to express our feelings when we feel that something is wrong. (Which is what the cartoonists are doing.) But, that does not mean that we should ever prevent someone we disagree with from expressing themselves, particularly when the act of censorship is due to the fear that such expression could lead to violence by its opponents. I would be disappointed if people did not protest against Draw Mohammad Day, just as I would be disappointed if people didn't protest against the censorship at Comedy Central and other media outlets silence by the fear of Islamic reprisals.

I think that the person who wrote Asma about the concern of government control over media in general had kept his or her eye on the big picture and has hit the nail on the head. We don't want government to decide what is blasphemous or what speech is acceptable. Even for people of faith, this potential for having the state dictate one's beliefs, religious or otherwise, is a real danger.

Hopefully, On Faith is not banned so that all Muslims can be saved via our free Five Step Program to "Deflaw" Islam:

Are you ready?

Using "The 77 Branches of Islamic "faith" a collection compiled by Imam Bayhaqi as a starting point. In it, he explains the essential virtues that reflect true "faith" (iman) through related Qur’anic verses and Prophetic sayings." i.e. a nice summary of the Koran and Islamic beliefs.

"1. Belief in Allah"

aka as God, Yahweh, Zeus, Jehovah, Mother Nature, etc. should be added to your cleansing neurons.

"2. To believe that everything other than Allah was non-existent. Thereafter, Allah Most High created these things and subsequently they came into existence."

Evolution and the Big Bang or the "Gib Gnab" (when the universe starts to recycle) are more plausible and the "akas" for Allah should be included if you continue to be a "creationist".

"3. To believe in the existence of angels."

A major item for neuron cleansing. Angels/devils are the mythical creations of ancient civilizations, e.g. Hittites, to explain/define natural events, contacts with their gods, big birds, sudden winds, protectors during the dark nights, etc. No "pretty/ugly wingy thingies" ever visited or talked to Mohammed, Jesus, Mary or Joseph or Joe Smith. Today we would classify angels as fairies and "tinker bells". Modern devils are classified as the demons of the demented.

"4. To believe that all the heavenly books that were sent to the different prophets are true. However, apart from the Quran, all other books are not valid anymore."

Another major item to delete. There are no books written in the spirit state of Heaven (if there is one) just as there are no angels/"pwtfft"s to write/publish/distribute them. The Koran, OT, NT etc. are simply books written by humans for humans.

Prophets were invented by ancient scribes typically to keep the uneducated masses in line. Today we call them fortune tellers.

Prophecies are also invalidated by the natural/God/Allah gifts of Free Will and Future.

"5. To believe that all the prophets are true. However, we are commanded to follow the Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) alone."

Mohammed spent thirty days fasting in a hot cave before his first contact with Allah aka God etc. via a "pretty wingy thingy". Common sense demands a neuron deletion of #5. #5 is also the major source of Islamic violence i.e. turning Mohammed's "fast, hunger-driven" hallucinations into horrible reality for unbelievers.

Accept these five "cleansers" and we guarantee a complete recovery from your Islamic ways!!!!

@ASMA: good write
@DebChatterjee: its amusing how little time it takes some for some nut job to start oh Islam is so barbaric..yada yada yada....i'm sure he/she is a PhD in inter-faith.

@yasseryousufi: you're missing the theme of the article...i totally agree with the author, govt. interventions mean nothing in this day and age...the event pisses us off but retaliation is not helping anyone..

Asma Uddin wrote:

**Specifically regarding the Prophet, Article 295C states, "Whoever by words, either spoken or written, or by visible representation or by any imputation, innuendo, or insinuation, directly or indirectly, defiles the sacred name of the Holy Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) shall be punished with death, or imprisonment for life, and shall also be liable to fine."***

This is a modern-day paraphrase of the Quran [005:033] [English translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali] that states:

YUSUFALI: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter;"

Islam is a barbaric religion and is totally incompatible with US (western) values. Muslims should not be allowed to immigrate to the West. US should stop all Muslim immigration.

"Yet Pakistan's approach is deeply flawed as it protects the wrong party and provides the wrong incentives. The Facebook ban appeases rather than controls violent extremists, giving them license to react violently."

Asma,

The decree was passed on by a Judiciary that guards its independence jealously. Hundreds of Pakistanis have sacrificed their lives and properties to get an independent Judiciary. The decision was implemented by a secular, democratic government. Who the heck are you to criticize this decision? The racist thugs of west you're trying to please care for you and other expats less than they would care about their dogs, feeding off their crumbs.

Infact you yourself are deeply flawed in your assumption that only violent extremists are hurt by images of Prophet Muhammad as Pig and terrorist that facebook and youtube allow to be posted on their site. There is no agitation on the streets. I think the originators of this movement are mighty disappointed that 20 May came and went and not single muslims died over this provocation. To me the response of Pakistani Government and muslims in general is a totally sober one. This is is only language the morons at facebook and youtube will understand. I'll admit I myself was addicted to both Youtube and Facebook, but the price they want me to give for this entertainment is too much for me to bear. I'd rather find some other means of entertainment!