Which God Don't You Believe In?

"...making a God to suit yourself. A different gospel. Well Paul knew that this would happen..."

Of course Paul knew that would happen.
He also made a God to suit himself.
Paul's god was considerably different than the one that Jesus preached.
Paul was the P.T. Barnum of Christianity.
He peddled McChristianity and the suckers are still eating it up.

I have listened to hours of Evangelical sermons and heard the O.T. and Paul quoted over and over.
But somehow Jesus of the Gospels never gets quoted.

I have talked to countless "Christians" who say they support the 10 commandments, but can't name them.
None of these "Christians" have the ability to remember that Jesus directed us to "Love God" and "Love one another".

That Jesus was/is loving and forgiving is lost on these McChristians.

"Tell me about the God you don't believe in."

This is of course a tongue-in-cheek *wink* type question, that really has been answered well by many of the "new atheists:" it's the same disbelief a specific religionist might experience with regard to all the gods that she doesn't worship--

But I would ask, tongue-in-cheek, for a "believer" to describe the God he/she believes in. As if, considering the premise that such a deity existed, a human could tell us about it with any degree of accuracy, or with some claim that his/her stories or writings were definitive, or even close.

That would be the God I didn't "believe in."

And maybe that's the point of the question: such a believer's God is indescribable, is mercurial.

And if so, I'd agree with the title of Chet Raymo's new book: When God is Gone, Everything is Holy. That's a premise I can believe in!

I've heard variations of this "which God don't you believe in?" line from so many "on faith panelists now (in this and other discussions) that I wonder if it's something they learn in seminary to stump atheists they encounter along the way.

I also wonder if the type of "atheist" that approaches a clergy person in church is perhaps looking to be talked out of their position. The atheists I know wouldn't be inclined to go to church and if they did, they wouldn't bother engaging clergy about the existence of god. That's just my experience, of course, just as McLaren is only describing his experience.

If I had been in his shoes, with the atheist he describes, I would have asked a different set of questions: What brings you to church (interest in learning about god/religion, a social community, family pressure, etc.)? How long have you been an atheist? (just since your sister became a fundamentalist? Before that? If so, what was the impetus? What are your concerns about religion?) However, I realize that a preacher talking with a flattering, church-going atheist is more likely to perceive a conversion opportunity than a chance to gain a deeper understanding of a person’s motivations and thus is more likely to ask the leading questions that McLaren chose: "So you're afraid if you believe in God, you'll become a pain in the neck like your sister" and "Do you think I'm a pain in the neck, since I obviously believe in God?" and "So, if you could find a way to believe in God the way some of us do, and not the way your sister does, maybe it would be OK?”

Wow! I bet the atheist pledged that very day!

My take on it is that the Pew Survey is probably doctored, biased, non scientific or a blatant lie

OR

People are saying they are atheist who aren't.

I don't believe in a universal god or any god.
I don't believe Heaven exists.
I haven't prayed in 50 years and have never prayed even as a child and thought that anyone/anything was listening. NOT ONCE.

This article explains why the title "pastor and intellectual leader" is an oxymoron. The person the article refers to obviously has no idea what the word "atheist" means, let alone the person that wrote it.

"Orthodox atheists" -as the article formulates- do not "refuse" to believe in magic and superstitions, they just have no reason to do so. Atheists in most cases are simply people that are too informed to believe in bronze-age tribal beliefs about the universe.

How immensely shallow.

I used to do a tolerance workshop in high schools and one of the mini-subjects was labels.
We talked about how labels can't tell the whole story but that they are generally effective way that people use to explain there preferences to the world.

To take the vegetarian example you have many subgroups
1.Vegan (no animal products)
2.Ovo-Lacto vegetarians (will eat eggs and diary)
3.Pescatarians (eat fish but no mammals or poultry)
4.My friend Melissa who only eats meat at her matriarchial grandmother so as not to disrespect her.

All these groups generally classify as vegetarian so they can fuction in the world (ie. get the right meal on an airplane) but that doesn't mean that it is the whole story.
The same is true for the way many people define their sexuality (Gay, Straight, Bisexual) We have certain ideas that are attatched here but often people adopt them for simplisties sake. The gay person who is actually a little bisexual or the straight person who had some same-sex experiences they enjoyed but now married to an opposite-sex person they don't see the point in identifying as bisexual.
The list of examples goes on and on.
That this should be the case for religious/atheists is no surprise. People adopted that label because it best fits how they exist in the world not because it is a perfect definition of who they are. People need to understand the usefullness and limitatios of labels in all these and many other arenas.

Respect there is a reason they chose that label but also respect that a person is not their chosen label.

-Austin

I have no doubt that there is a small percentage of unbelievers who "don't believe" because they've never given it much thought and they understandably don't like what they've seen from religion. These are the ones who sometimes later get "saved" and then say to skeptics that they are "just like you" because they used to be an "atheist."

For most people, however, the price of being an unbeliever is so high in our culture that they aren't going to declare independence from faith unless they've reasoned it through and found insufficient grounds for believing. It takes more soul searching to admit the faiths are unwarranted than to given in to the never-ending religious pressure and "belong."

The man you describe didn't have a complex spiritual history. He just didn't know what the word "atheist" means. There's plenty that don't, but that's not a profound discovery.

The idea is this:

God is life that has always existed from nothing.

From the evidence, it appears life is fragile, and has a BEGINNING and an END.

"God" is a silly concept, the belief that life has just magically always existed - before space, or time, or matter, or energy - before anything else, there was life.

This is an unfounded belief. These silly beliefs are rejected by ANYONE who thinks hard about the 'god' claim.

Which god do I not believe in?

All of them.

Which Disney Princess do you not believe in?

All of them, I hope.

Which god don't *I* believe in? The ones that have no evidence of existing...that means all of them. It's not that I think some believers are a pain. It's not that I think belief is too restrictive. It's not like I had some religious trauma. It's not like I had some Freudian relationship problem in my youth. (I was a believing Christian).

I am just not wired to believe in things that aren't there.

I'm tempted to ask you to describe God. I know you can't and am curious to see if you'll try. The Bible warns against it for to try to describe God invariably leads to putting "strange God before Me" real God.

Knowing that I also know that your test subject did not come to a deep faith in God as you say but rather to a deep faith in you. Congratulations God you fooled another one. Just like the Bible says you're a strange God alright, (real God doesn't wear glasses).

The Bible is the word of the Lord of hell, Lucifer. That explains his sister becoming as she did after she gained "fundamental" faith, in the Bible. I'm sure you know that any being human or otherwise who convinces any other being he is god is actually a devil. There is but one God while devils are so numerous they can't be counted. You did know that God is watching? I see you don't care.

BRIAN D MCLAREN

In your post, you brought up a very good point not only about language but also about God, Himself, and how there seem to be plenty of people that know God's Name and that seems to be the extent of what they know about God.

If God was even remotely like what some of the people that know His Name think that He Is, then there is no way that I would want to have anything to do with Him, but I have met God and not only is God a Trinity but He is a Being of Pure Love.

I have written before and I write again that there are some people that consider themselves atheists that are more "Christian" in their hearts where it is important than some of the people who consider themselves "Christian".

The bible states that 'True Religion' is taking care of widows and orphans, it doesn't even mention believing in God.

As I have said before, God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, if you happen to read this, is the previous statement, simple and clear and to the point? I happen to believe that it is pretty straightforward, I am not asking if you or anyone else believes it but if they can see what it says.

Take care, be ready, see you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

The fact people don't know the definition of atheism (lack of belief in any god or the supernatural) points more to the fact that they are ignorant or uneducated than to their complexity. Would we say someone who calls themselves a vegetarian but loves steaks and beef sausages a complex person or just an ignorant person who doesn't know what word vegetarian means?

BDM,

Very well written post. I have had similiar experiences.

Everyone has a unique story to tell. Sometimes it just takes a listening ear, a little bit of patience, and a few reflective questions to help change a tainted perception.

-GB

Wow: this is an amazing post; making a God to suit yourself. A different gospel. Well Paul knew that this would happen ----2 Corinthians 11:4-16 - 4For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way.

7Was it a sin for me to lower myself in order to elevate you by preaching the gospel of God to you free of charge? 8I robbed other churches by receiving support from them so as to serve you. 9And when I was with you and needed something, I was not a burden to anyone, for the brothers who came from Macedonia supplied what I needed. I have kept myself from being a burden to you in any way, and will continue to do so. 10As surely as the truth of Christ is in me, nobody in the regions of Achaia will stop this boasting of mine. 11Why? Because I do not love you? God knows I do! 12And I will keep on doing what I am doing in order to cut the ground from under those who want an opportunity to be considered equal with us in the things they boast about. 13For such men are false apostles, deceitful workmen, masquerading as apostles of Christ. 14And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light. 15It is not surprising, then, if his servants masquerade as servants of righteousness. Their end will be what their actions deserve.