Theory vs. Reality

Your comment about the so-called bad judgment of a Pagan concerning the nature of the universe has shown you do not have nearly enough knowledge about Paganism to be talking about the subject.

What a moron. You should learn more about a subject before you decide to write about it. At least read a few SENTENCES on Paganism from a reliable source before you go spouting off about it.

Someday :) As you do not seem to know anything about Paganism (a collection of different beliefs, not a single religion) and the following is just your ignorant opinion.

>Still, I wonder about a person's judgment if >he, or she, has embraced paganism with all of >the evidence available concerning an orderly >universe and the creative mind behind such >order. Having judged incorrectly concerning the >great "I Am," would a pagan be considered wise >enough to judge temporal things? And, in an age >when virtually every politician claims some >kind of religion, could a pagan win?

Yvonne Taylor

Cal, that was ignorant and arrogant.

epfiswt gqpsolm obcduhiz tdozjhk ufmil xcweqvn xvyzcndrb

" Daniel:

"Religious arguing is pointless, because people do not form their religous beliefs based on arguments with people trying to convert them or change them. The development of belief is a mysterious confluence of experiential contingencies, moderated and filtered by the acuity of ones own senses, and the dexterity and cleverness of ones own inteligence"

It's especially pointless when the question at hand is not whether or not everyone should believe in my religion, but rather, if my religion should be treated fairly under the American law which promises as much.

Hi, 'The Truth.'

" The Truth:

"I am not here to "blog hog" anything. I believe that science along with theories of natural selection and evolution do a much better job of explaining the universe than a belief in a "creative mind(s)". If I have no evidence, then what evidence do you have that some floating being or beings in some other-worldy place suddenly zapped the universe into existence?"

Shhh... It's OK.

Pagans do not construct our worlds in some way that means our belief in the Gods is supposed to override reason.

I mean, yes, we'll possibly *laugh* and say, "Why?" when you say, "Prove your Gods Exist On My Terms!"

But that's possibly cause we don't run around telling you to obey our Gods. (at least not 'cause We Say So.')

This is a little different. In some important ways. :)

For one, we don't claim 'authority' over you in the name of a book which claims this authority descends from ideas the Universe was 'zapped into place.'

It does little good to reject nonsense if you still can't seem to see the world in any other way.

This is not what we're about.

OK?

As for the 'blog hog' thing, that's what ConcenedChristian calls you when you don't answer his defamatory crossposting on every thread.

He's mostly talking about how big the weapon he's completely missing his own straw men with is, anyway. :)

:)

Thanks, Daniel. Although you may feel it a waste of time to be here, your comments are clear and helpful.

Dear "The Truth"
Thank you for asking me your question that way.

Religious arguing is pointless, because people do not form their religous beliefs based on arguments with people trying to convert them or change them. The development of belief is a mysterious confluence of experiential contingencies, moderated and filtered by the acuity of ones own senses, and the dexterity and cleverness of ones own inteligence.

The emergence of belief is something that comes to you as you mature; it seeps into your mind, and is sculpted and formed by your own personal doubts, and by your own psychological reactions to doubt and its consquent fears. The emergence of belief is something mysterious, as mysterious as just about any other aspect of our lives. You cannot argue me out of mine, nor I argue you out of yours.

A person cannot "know" of the existence of God, and I do not say that I do. And I think, logically, most true "people of faith" would have to admit that that is how they also think.

It is only when religion becomes all wrapped up in political affairs and institutions that the truth of one belief or another has real political meaning, or threat, that it becomes necessary to "prove" your religious belief beyond doubt, and to label people of differnt beliefs as heretics, apostates, or infidels.

When Christians, Moslems, or Jews become upset with atheists and call them foolish, and alot worse, what they really mean is that atheists are "heretics, apostates, and ifidels." But, this is, of course, all childish nonsense.

If, I, as a Christian, say I believe in God, it is by no scientific proof that I would say such a thing. For I know that there is no scienctific evidence pointing to the existence of God, and I definitely do respect science as a very successful and credible way of looking at the world.

A sincere belief in God, is a sort of way of looking at mysteries, which we cannot really explain, and a way to set your mind on a peaceful course; faith does not mean knowlege; these are two very different concepts; yet, I aknowlege, few people would make the distinction, in trying to impose their own beliefs on others.

Daniel,

Then please tell us, how do you know that God exists?

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

Sorry, I mistakenly thought your last comment was directed at me and I mistook you for Paganplace.

I am a Christian. Neither belief in Intelligent Design nor Creationism science is a requirement for Christian belief, in any Christian scheme. Some Born-Again-Protestant-Evangelicals have "added-on" quite a bit to Christianity, including belief criteria along the lines of Intelligent Design and Creationism Science; but this is all just "made up."

Alot of Christians argue for Intelligent Design or Creationism Science by saying, look at all this complicated "creation," a creator MUST exist. This is an argument that is designed to convince ONESELF, but cannot convince others.

Alot of the physical existence of living things now present on the earth has been explained by science through evolution. Among scientist, there is no controversy. Among non-scientists, there is a pretend, or imagined controversy, as though Intelligent Design or Creationism Science might have some scientific legitimacy, but alas, they do not; and whatismore, this fact should have no relevance to Christianity nor Christian thinking.

I am not here to "blog hog" anything. I believe that science along with theories of natural selection and evolution do a much better job of explaining the universe than a belief in a "creative mind(s)". If I have no evidence, then what evidence do you have that some floating being or beings in some other-worldy place suddenly zapped the universe into existence?

Paganplace,

Again, nice try!!! but you have no references to back your statistics and you are here simply to to "blog hog" paganism.

If some creative mind created order in the universe, then it only follows that the creative mind must be just as sophisticated or more sophisticated than the order that he or she or it created. If believers think that order indicates a creative mind, then surely the same rule would apply to the being behind all of the order, especially since that being would have to be of an even higher order than the order he or she or it created. This being the case, then someone please tell me who created the being behind all of this order?

"Cal, unlike some other commentators, never participates in the conversation"

Cal's been busy. He's in his element. Wow! Cal Thomas, I love you too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LCIiXOftVQY&mode=related&search=

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=feeXK6uVhRo&mode=related&search=

Jonny,

That was my biggest question regarding this post too. Cal, unlike some other commentators, never participates in the conversation that ensues following his sensationally absurd statements.

"with all of the evidence available concerning an orderly universe and the creative mind behind such order."

I shudder to think of what Thomas considers to be "evidence."

Actually, Concerned, you just keep spamming every thread with the question and ignoring the answers. If you're so 'concerned,' you look it up.

Paganplace,

You continue to make commentary about the number of Pagans, Muslims and Jews in the US military and how many have died in Iraq but never give references to back your statements. Such conduct mutes much of what you say.

Post hoc ergo propter hoc.

I could wile away the hours
Conferrin' with the flowers
Consultin' with the rain
And my head I'd be scratchin'
While my thoughts were busy hatchin'
If I only had a brain

-- lyrics by EH Harburg and music by Harold Arlen

In my descent into curmudgeonhood, I find myself no longer able to suffer the foolish notion that a believer in one religion or belief system can logically prove or disprove his own or another's religion or belief system.

Somehow, the semantic opposition between logic and faith has been lost. My thanks to you, Mr. Thomas, for bringing that fully to my attention.

Hey, now, if 'all religions must commit atrocities,' give us half a chance. They keep saying we just sprang up out of nowhere and don't have the 'legitimacy' of a history of killing a bunch of people yet.

Really, 'The truth.' If that was 'The Truth,' then we should be uniquely qualified to be the good guys, because apparently we just pulled Paganism out of nowhere, and thus surely haven't killed anyone...

Oh, right, lots of people like to connect us with insane Roman Emperors as murderers, but also say we lack legitimacy cause we're modern.

I'll tell you what.

In my belief system, you don't have to believe in my belief system to be a good person and maybe even please the Gods. Why don't you just go do that and let us have our civil rights. It'll be *ok.*

Well, if you can be OK.

Just a bit of a note to atheists who cleave to reason, yet not the bit of reason that says, 'Yes, lots of people have said religion is silly in this thread already,'

...Yes, we heard you say that. OK? Right now we're apparently having a problem with legitimacy for being *too* tolerant.

That's not helping.

Pagans, Christians, Muslims and any others who belive in a god or gods are delusional. He or she or it simply does not exist. Considering all of the attrocities, wars and suffering that people have brought upon each other in the name of their religion or because of religious differences, I don't think any believer, Pagan or otherwise, is qualified to hold office.

And, they made a leader or two of the mob that brutally killed Hypatia... saints for destroying all that knowledge. And one of the greatest minds of the time.

Don't forget, it was Pagan Greece that made up the concept of an "orderly universe."

Pagans built the Library of Alexandria and learned from it. Rabid Christians intent on stamping out all knowledge other than that of the Church burned it.

As in so many things, Cal knows not of what he writes. That an "orderly universe" should be incompatible with Paganism is like saying Christianity has nothing to do with salvation.

Why are people of his generation so closed-minded, bigoted, and hateful???

Kierkegaard:

Your post reminds me -I haven't had lunch yet. Here's my recipe for:

Summer Salad

1 pound rice noodles
3 large cloves garlic
½ cup fish sauce
2/3 cup water
½ cup fresh lime juice
½ cup rice vinegar
¼ to cup brown sugar
1 to 2 hot peppers
6 to 8 leaves Napa cabbage, thinly sliced
8 scallions, thinly sliced
1 large carrot, shredded
½ cup tightly packed cilantro leaves, chopped
2 grilled or roasted chicken breasts, shredded
1 cup salted peanuts, coarsely chopped

Bring a large pot of water to a boil. Add the rice noodles and cook for one minute. Drain the noodles into a colander, rinse with cold water, drain well and place them in a large bowl.

Place the garlic cloves in the bowl of a food processor, and pulse to mince. Add the fish sauce, water, lime juice, rice wine vinegar, brown sugar, and chilies, and purée them together. Pour dressing into serving bowl.

Toss the vegetables and cilantro with the noodles, and mound the mixture on a platter. Scatter the chicken and peanuts over the top, and enjoy.

If you can keep everyone from eating it all -the leftovers get better. I always make extra.

'So Few,' Concerned?

Fourty three hundred is 'So few?'

That's just the ones serving openly, anyway.

That's also more than have died in Iraq.

More than died on 9/11.

Should those people have been excluded from equal consideration because they were 'so few' compared to some other number?

4300 serving openly, ...that's more than there are Muslims in the military, and *they* have multiple chaplains.

Obviously, there are a lot of incentives to hide, anyway.

Let's remove one.

JWS: Don't mention the Giant Spaghetti Monster in print, you know that's blasphemy! Oh no, I mentioned the Giant Spaghetti Monster in print, now I guess I'm doomed to eternity in the marinara sauce. Sorry, Giant Spaghetti Monster.
Oops! I did it again!

I would say that Many Forms of Paganism are far closer aligned with objective reality than Christianity or any of the other religions of the book. Not that well aligned, but not in open denial of overwhelming evidence of evolution for example.

Is Deism a form of paganism?

I think Thomas Jefferson was a pretty good president.

"the evidence" Cal? I agree, the evidence must guide us. Let us not ignore some of the evidence, cherry pick that which is to our preconceived notions.

The Bible is a proved hoax. However, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul examines the evidence. We are still waiting to hear, "listen, if you have ears" and we're all ears waiting for the tiniest shred of evidence that the Christian God isn't really the biggest Devil of them all, Lucifer.

Are those who worship not at all or have the obviously false Pagan gods not more qualified to lead us than Devil worshipers like W, Jerry Falwell and yourself? Maybe Wickie Poo would listen to the Oracle when she warned W that if he attacked an evil administration would fall? W didn't and now look what happened. You can trust the Oracle but can you trust Pat Robertson, one who speaks to the being Moses made the deal with?

A. Thorn,

And the official numbers of religious groups/cults in the US military are? Specific journals, reports, books, websites??

And what religious group/cult has fewer than 4300 members in the US military but still has chaplains?

CtCNL,

"And with so few Pagans in the military why are we discussing this issue?????"

Because, as has been pointed out in other threads that I know you've been in, there are other religions with even less of a population in the military that have Chaplains. If they have less, and have Chaplains, why shouldn't Pagans?

Cal writes:

"Still, I wonder about a person's judgment if he, or she, has embraced paganism..."

I wonder about a person's judgment if he, or she, has embraced Christianity.

http://www.milpagan.org/media/statistics.html is the cited source of the # of Pagans in the US military. A Defense Department reference would be the only real source of accurate information.

But let us do the math anyway: 4300 Pagans/6702 military bases (http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/intervention/2004/01bases.htm) or less than one Pagan per base on average.

There are probably more Pagans working for Wallmart. Maybe they should add a few Pagan chaplins to the "welcomers".

And there are probably a heck of a lot more atheists in the military. Another positive for atheism. No chaplins required!!

And with so few Pagans in the military why are we discussing this issue?????

Somebody Else:

If you would like to view lunacy and madness -its not in Cal Thomas' columns. Its in the Hamas childrens tv. Now that they have killed Mickey Mouse wannabe Farfur: They are telling their children they must rise up and fulfill ancient islamic prophecy.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qSwpAX1xvrc

Frightening?

Thank You Cal.
If we had a few more of christ's reps like you,
America would be as secular as Europe is now.

Keep up the lunacy!

If church offers the answers for eternal life and social bliss, there's no need for our evolving politics and medicine.

When you have a heart attack, do you call on medicine or god?

When your spouse is killed by mugger, do you call the police or god?

You've gotta love this big guy:

"Come to Glasgow and we'll set about you."

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCqprbH7mrg&NR=1

I mean, come on, Cal, you wrie all his stuff abou our 'theory' saying my people *can't* (theoretically) exist, be good Americans, have faith, have brains, care for others, fight hard and well, heal hard and well...

I've seen your smugness on TV in front of a hand-selected sympathetic audience, ...your assumptions, your fallacies, in fact, your partisanship.

I say, 'big man,' you want to see our *judgement,*

...ask us.

You may find your 'theory' doesn't match with 'reality.'

How bout it, big guy?

Frankly, Terra, I think this guy has a lot of nerve trying to call *us* on 'Theory vs Reality,' given the religious claims he makes vs the effects of the 'pious' actions of the people he supports.

I mean, hey, Cal Thomas.

Christian.

You wanna use your 'theory' to say our 'reality' isn't what it is,

You got a lot to learn on 'Theory Vs Reality.'

Can I have my civil rights, now?

mad Love,
Perhaps you are right. Maybe I needed to get more balloons, they tend to fight over who owns what.

terra

I think you should learn more about Paganism before you judge. After all, in the US, Paganism is the fastest growing religious group. Christianity and Judaism are both in decline. I wouldn't dream of saying that Christians and Jews lack judgment because of their spiritual perspective.

The only people who are allowed that judgement are those who have tangible proof of the Creator(s) We all know that it's not possible. So let's stop the snide remarks and embrace our differences.

Rev Anastasia Keech

Hmm, it's too bad you feel that way.

I, for one, fail to see the logic of voting for a presidential candidate based solely on his Evangelical Christian values (i.e. George W. Bush). Judging from that example, a Pagan would make a MUCH better president than an Evangelical Christian!

And since when is the Pagan pantheon (or rather, panetheons) devoid of creative minds? I'm pretty sure we've got Christianity beat on that front.

Besides, every day there is increasing evidence that our world and our universe is far more complex and interconnected than we ever thought. Why should cosmic creation be reserved for a single entity?

A Pagan (and please, for Godssakes, please capitalize the proper name of an umbrella term for any religion. I do the same for you.) would have just as much of a chance of winning an election if there were fewer people in the world like you: people who don't bother to read up on anything before they make a decision.

I'd dread the fate of the planet if everyone made decisions like you do.

Nivedita:

You're a bigger peron than I am if you can feely pity for Cal Thomas. All I can manage is nausea.

You write stuff competely devoid of logic. First you made me angry, but now I feel only pity for you and your ilk.

Terra

Perhaps it would be best if Cal and his friends remain at the kiddie table for now. As soon as they outgrow this phase we could let them try to join in the adult conversation.

I keep trying to make a comment on Cal Thomas and Chuck Colson, but I give up. They are of the same bag...and I have stones in mine.

So..
How you all doing? I thought I would just chat.
I have a question.

I have heard that christian Cal wants to have the same rights as any Pagan. Do you think with his problem with seeing some life as better then others, that he can be balanced in his decisions?

all thoughts welcome.

Goddess Bless,
terra

Cal Thomas worries about the judgment of other people, which is kind of funny since he has been systematically and demonstrably wrong about most of the largest issues of our day. The nice thing about being a pundit, though, is that nobody keeps score, and you don't need to have any qualifications on a subject to pontificate about it.

An al-Qaida-inspired computer expert who dubbed himself "the jihadist James Bond" was sentenced to 10 years in prison Thursday for running a network of extremist Web sites and hoarding videos of the murders of Americans Nick Berg and Daniel Pearl.

Morocco-born Younis Tsouli, 23, who prosecutors said uploaded guides to building suicide vests onto the Internet, used the online ID "irhabi007" _ the Arabic word for terrorist and the code number of the fictional British spy.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/07/05/AR2007070500964.html

should be "do NOT make spiritual teachers" sorry . ...i get very tired after my job! sorry again... raymond.

it is said that many religions worship the sun ,this is a misunderstanding to the the unenlightened secondary person who call themselves"teachers" most of the so called "spiritual" teachers are false ! the SUN and the SKY are metaphors... only those who have an ACTUAL experience will understand... the sky is the INNER sky the field of blue light seen in deep meditation... the SUN is the SON I.E. the son of(or daughter) of GOD that the one meditating becomes also called satori,nirvana,born again kingdom of heaven, at-one-ment (not atone-ment),divine grace the eternal now (Nostradamas) and many other names. there are to many distortions of the TRUTH (REALITY) from the many with no ACTUAL EXPERIENCE! just taking your money! if no one knows the truth..... then who can call them frauds... beautiful words and colorful ceremonies do make spiritual teachers .... www.greatpath.org will answer many questions for those who truly seek .....remember your first love i.e. being in the state of eternal spirit.. do not worship the new golden calf of the intellectual bio-computer brain and its self created programing very sincerely

"Providing higher education by building taller schools."

I think that may have adopted as one the provisions of No Child Left Behind . . .

"Breeding a mosquito that would only hatch in January so that 'the little buggers will freeze to death'."

Now *that's* something I think all of us here could support . . .

Brian:

Imagine that you have no idea what you're talking about? That's not hard to imagine.

And once again you reveal yourself to be a complete moron.

Sweet zombie Jesus, what an idiot.

Cal Thomas, You're a mensch.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ztww4E8cpKs

Fore.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ql3o7CJsmik

What is in England is in America?

Inayat Bunglawala, 36, the media secretary for the Muslim Council of Britain, is understood to have been selected as one of seven "conveners" for a Home Office task force with responsibilities for tackling extremism among young Muslims, despite a history of anti-Semitic statements.

In January 1993, Mr Bunglawala wrote a letter to Private Eye, the satirical magazine, in which he called the blind Sheikh Omar Abdul Rahman "courageous" - just a month before he bombed the World Trade Center in New York. After Rahman's arrest in July that year, Mr Bunglawala said that it was probably only because of his "calling on Muslims to fulfil their duty to Allah and to fight against oppression and oppressors everywhere".

Five months before 9/11, Mr Bunglawala also circulated writings of Osama bin Laden, who he regarded as a "freedom fighter", to hundreds of Muslims in Britain. (read more at utube link)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bGZX2QcMTT4

We used to have the Rhino Party to fall back on here in the Great White North.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A5287845

During the duration of the Rhino party, many claims, promises, and the like were made - most of which were completely impossible. Here are some select promises.

*

Moving the Rocky Mountains one metre west as a 'make-work' project.
*

Alternatively, tearing down the Rocky Mountains so that Albertans could see the Pacific sunset.
*

Repealing the law of gravity.
*

Providing higher education by building taller schools.
*

Building sloping roads and bicycle paths across the country so that Canadians could 'coast from coast to coast'.
*

Breeding a mosquito that would only hatch in January so that 'the little buggers will freeze to death'.
*

Putting the national debt on Visa.
*

Declaring war on Belgium because a Belgian cartoon character, Tintin, killed a rhinoceros in one of the cartoons.
*

Painting Canada's coastal sea limits so that Canadian fish would know where they were at all times.
*

Making Canadians stronger by putting steroids in the water.
*

Replacing the Canadian Armed Forces with clones of Vladislav Tretiak.
*

Adopting the British system of driving on the left; this was to be gradually phased in over five years with large trucks first, then buses, eventually including small cars and bicycles last.
*

Selling the Canadian Senate at an antique auction in California.

--------------

Some days I really, really miss them...

Regards

A Hermit

I am voting for Michael Dudikoff. It would be awesome to have ninja congressmen (and women).

Hermit:

Ok then, I am voting for Michael Moore

Russell D.:

Ron Paul has too many suspicious ties to white supremacist loons. Be careful...

http://dneiwert.blogspot.com/2007/06/ron-paul-vs-new-world-order.html

Ron Paul ROCKS!

He's the clear choice for the thinking men and women of America.

The clear choice of the people.

All the others are Shills for the wealthy elite.

Luke, Anon:

All I have to say is this: Bedazzled.

Elizabeth Hurley as the Devil. Hot Stuff baby! And you get a look up her skirt! Yea, I'd vote for that too.

Actually, I may not be the most conservative guy, or like republicans, but I'd consider Ron Paul right about now.
But I am waiting for Gore to run............oh well.

All decent Muslims agree with Ms. Taylor who summerized the following verse in her short article.

Koran. 2.177
"It is not righteousness that you turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believes in God and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the prophets; and gives wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor-due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God-conscious."

Unfortunately, extremists such as Mr Collins, supporters of Al Quida and Wohabism etc would distort the clear simple statement in the Qur'an to promote hate and discord between innocent human beings.

I don't know, I've never asked the devil for a glimpse of his goods. If you are alluding to Hillary Clinton, I would rather have her than the bumbling Beelzebub we have in office now. It doesn't matter who you vote for, it couldn't be worse than it is now!

Luke:

You said:

"I'd vote for the devil himself.."

Isn't it:

"I'd vote for the devil herself.."

For a God that supposedly created a "perfect" universe (I think it's pretty flawed myself), he sure has a lot of bad representatives. I'd vote for the devil himself before I voted for Fred Thompson.

The WEXNER ANALYSIS: How Israel convinced the US that they were one and the same
This is a research commissioned by Israel on the American people. I sent it out several times when it first appeared, but it wasn't really taken seriously then by American friends. I think that the situation may have changed now..., so here it is again.

http://www.adc.org/index.php?id=1789

The Luntz Research Companies & The Israel Project - April 2003

Israeli Communications Priorities 2003

ADC has obtained, and is publishing in full, a vital new Israeli propaganda strategy document for the period following the war in Iraq.

The document, entitled “Wexner Analysis: Israeli Communications Priorities 2003,” was prepared for the Wexner Foundation, which operates leadership training programs such as the “Birthright Israel” project which offers free trips for young Jewish Americans to Israel, by the public relations firm the Luntz Research Companies and the Israel Project. However, please note that the report’s suggested language is written in a distinctly Israeli, as opposed to a Jewish American, voice.

WEXNER ANALYSIS:
ISRAELI COMMUNICATION PRIORITIES 2003

OVERVIEW

The world has changed. The words, themes and messages on behalf of Israel must include and embrace the new reality of a post-Saddam world.

In the past, we have urged a lower profile for Israel out of a fear that the American people would blame Israel for what was happening in the rest of the Middle East. Now is the time to link American success in dealing with terrorism and dictators from a position of strength to Israel's ongoing efforts to eradicate terrorism on and within its borders. In the current political environment, you have little to lose and a lot to gain by aligning with America. With all the anti-Americanism across the globe and all the protests and demonstrations, we are looking for allies that share our commitment to security and an end to terrorism and are prepared to say so. Israel is a just such an ally.

THE NEXT STEP

The fact that Israel has remained relatively silent for the three months preceding the war and for the three weeks of the war was absolutely the correct strategy - and according to all the polling done, it worked. But as the military conflict comes to a close, it is now time for Israel to lay out its own "road map" for the future which includes unqualified support for America and unqualified commitment to an ongoing war against terrorism.

Perceptions of Israel and the Israeli-Palestinian conflict are being almost entirely colored and often overshadowed by the continuing action in Iraq. Partisan differences still exist (the political Left remains your problem) and complaints about Israeli heavy-handedness still exist. Advocates of Israel have about two weeks to get their message in order before world attention turns to the so-called "road map" and how best to "solve" the Israel-Palestinian conflict. Developing that message is the purpose of this memo.

Author's note: This is not a policy document. This document is strictly a communications manual. As with every memo we provide, we have used the same scientific methodology to isolate specific words, phrases, themes and messages that will resonate with at least 70% of the American audience. There will certainly be some people, particularly those on the political left, who will oppose whatever words you use, but the language that follows will help you secure support from a large majority of Americans. These recommendations are based on two "dial test" sessions in Chicago and Los Angeles conducted during the first ten days of the Iraqi war for the Wexner Foundation.

ESSENTIAL CONCLUSIONS

This document is rather long because it is impossible to communicate all that is needed in simple one-sentence sound-bites. Yes, we have provided those on the pages that follow, but we have taken the space to explain why the language is so important and the context in which it needs to be used. If you only read two pages, these are the key conclusions:

1) Iraq colors all. Saddam is your best defense, even if he is dead. The worldview Americans is entirely dominated by developments in Iraq. This is a unique opportunity for Israelis to deliver a message of support and unity at a time of great international anxiety and opposition from some of our European "allies." For a year - a SOLID YEAR - you should be invoking the name of Saddam Hussein and how Israel was always behind American efforts to rid the world of this ruthless dictator and liberate their people. Saddam will remain a powerful symbol of terror to Americans for a long time to come. A pro-Israeli expression of solidarity with the American people in their successful effort to remove Saddam will be appreciated.

2) Stick to your message but don't say it the same way twice. We have seen this in the past but never so starkly as today. Americans are paying very close attention to international developments and are particularly sensitive to any kind of apparent dogma or canned presentations. If they hear you repeating the exact same words over and over again, they will come to distrust your message. If your speakers can't find different ways to express similar principles, keep them off the air.

3) It DOES NOT HELP when you compliment President Bush. When you want to identify with and align yourself with America, just say it. Don't use George Bush as a synonym for the United States. Even with the destruction of the Hussein regime and all the positive reactions from the Iraqi people, there still remains about 20% of America that opposes the Iraqi war, and they are overwhelmingly Democrat. That leaves about half the Democrats who support the war even if they don't support George Bush.

4) Conveying sensitivity and a sense of values is a must. Most of the best-performing sound bites mention children, families, and democratic values. Don't just say that Israel is morally aligned with the U.S. Show it in your language. The children component is particularly important. It is essential that you talk about "the day, not long from now, when Palestinian children and Israeli children will play side-by-side as their parents watch approvingly."
5) "SECURITY" sells. Security has become the key fundamental principle for all Americans. Security is the context by which you should explain Israeli need for loan guarantees and military aid, as well as why Israel can't just give up land. The settlements are our Achilles heel, and the best response (which is still quite weak) is the need for security that this buffer creates.

6) The language in this document will work, but it will work best when it is accompanied with passion and compassion. Too many supporters of Israel speak out of anger or shout when faced with opposition. Listeners are more likely to accept your arguments if they like how you express them. They will bless these words but they will truly accept them if and only if they accept you.

7) Find yourself a good female spokesperson. In all our testing, women are found to be more credible than men. And if the woman has children, that's even better.

8) Link Iraqi liberation with the plight of the Palestinian people. It is likely that the most effective argument(s) you have right now are those that link the right of the Iraqi people to live in freedom with the right of the Palestinian people to be governed by those who truly represent them. If you express your concern for the plight of the Palestinian people and how it is unfair, unjust and immoral that they should be forced to accept leaders who steal and kill in their name, you will be building credibility for your support of the average Palestinian while undermining the credibility of their leadership.

9) A little humility goes a long way. You saw this with your own eyes. You need to talk continually about your understanding of "the plight of the Palestinians" and a commitment to helping them. Yes, this IS a double standard (no one expects anything pro-Israeli from the Palestinians) but that's just the way things are. Humility is a bitter pill to swallow, but it will inoculate you against critiques that you have not done enough for peace. Admit mistakes, but then show how Israel is the partner always working for peace.

10) Of course rhetorical questions work, don't they? Ask a question to which there is only one answer is hard to lose. It is essential that your communication be laced with rhetorical questions, which is how Jews talk anyway.

11) Mahmoud Abbas is still a question mark. Leave him that way. You stand much more to lose by attacking him now. But similarly, he is not worthy of praise. Talk about your hopes for the future, but lay out the principles you expect him to uphold: an end to violence, a recognition of Israel, reform of his own government, etc.

THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT WORDS: SADDAM HUSSEIN (STILL)

This document is about language, so let me be blunt. "Saddam Hussein" are the two words that tie Israel to America and are most likely to deliver support in Congress. They also just happen to be two of the most hated words in the English language right now.

Without being repetitive, Americans fundamentally believe that a democracy has a right to protect its people and its borders. Unfortunately, as a democracy, we tend to dwell on our failures (Vietnam, Watergate, etc.) more than our successes. It is essential for the long-term support of a strong military and a commitment to national security that we remind people again and again...and again that there are times when it is necessary to take preventative action and that military intervention is better than appeasement.

A WARNING

There are some who would say that Saddam Hussein is already old news. They don't understand history. They don't understand communication. They don't understand how to integrate and leverage history and communication for the benefit of Israel. The day we allow Saddam to take his eventual place in the trash heap of history is the day we loose our strongest weapon in the linguistic defense of Israel.

References to the successful outcome of the war with Iraq benefit Israel. While Americans don't want to increase foreign aid in a time of significant budgetary deficits and painful spending cuts, there is one and only one argument that will work for continuing Israeli aid (in four easy steps):

THE ISRAELI AID MESSAGE TREE

(1) As a democracy, Israel has the right and the responsibility to defend its borders and protect its people.

(2) Prevention works. Even with the collapse of Saddam's regime, terrorist threats remain throughout our region.

(3) Israel is America's one and only true ally in the region. In these particularly unstable and dangerous times, Israel should not be forced to go it alone.

(4) With America's financial assistance, Israel can defend its borders, protect its people, and provide invaluable assistance to the American effort in the war against terrorism.

This is important. All the arguments about Israel being a democracy, letting Arabs vote and serve in government, protecting religious freedom, etc., won't deliver the public support you need to secure the loan guarantees and the military aid Israel needs. All the language we have written in past memos will not work when it comes to U.S. tax dollars. You need a national security angle - one that clearly links the interests of both Israel and America:

WORDS THAT WORK:
SELLING ISRAEL AID (I)

"It was Israel who risked their pilots and planes in taking out Saddam Hussein's nuclear reactors and thus thwarted his quest for nuclear weapons of mass destruction.

It was Israel who provided much of the intelligence that helped America defeat Iraq back in 1991.

It was Israel alone among Middle Eastern nations that supported America's successful effort to remove Saddam Hussein and liberate the people of Iraq.

We stood without you against the Saddam regime from beginning to end. Israel has been a key regional asset and military ally of the United States for more than 50 years. That relationship must continue, even and especially in the post-Saddam era. It is a partnership of democracies devoted to the war against terrorism and the fight for freedom."

As we have seen, the news cycle during and immediately following a war is is not a matter of idle curiosity, it is compulsory viewing. Even more than in Israel, where conflict has tragically been almost commonplace, war means a new and real threat to personal and familial security in America. And Saddam Hussein, dead or alive, still embodies that threat.

Americans have been thinking and talking about the war on terror for almost a year and a half now, and they have come to conclude that Saddam Hussein is a sponsor of world terror and is a particular threat to the democracies of the world. New and shocking revelations about the brutality of his regime are discovered daily, which only reinforces American support of military action. But the fact that Hussein was a direct threat to Israel is especially important. Israel opposed his cruel ambitions for decades - a decade longer than the U.S. Remind audiences that Israel and America have common values, but then stress that we also share common enemies.

But deterrence is only half the message. You really do need to emphasize your historic willingness to compromise and sacrifice on behalf of America. This may not play well among some Israeli politicians but it will certainly play extremely well in the States.

WORDS THAT WORK

Cal cracks me up everytime! You couldn't write satire this funny if you tried and yet he is dead serious. And that smug picture! If Cal Thomas didn't exist you would have to invent him. Good stuff.

As usual, Cal's smugness and stupidity has left me speechless and a little embarrassed to be a Christian. I'm not sure what is so rational about what we believe as Christians compared to what pagans profess. They may be more "counter-cultural" but then so was Jesus.

Eric S, you say "The only person that lived a totally Christian life was Christ"

Jesus was a Jew, through and through. Christians didn't come until much later. The early followers of Jesus were Jewish.

9/11 was a wake up call for all normal folk who don't believe in the spooky world of religion.
Where we should be condemning supernatural thinking as
insane and dangerous,the media instead are giving it
space here to advertise its deadly dogmas.
It seems that indoctrination into believing in an after life,
and a God and a heaven and a hell, overrides intelligence and education:
witness the doctors prepared to become religious martyrs
in the recent carbomb scares in London and Glasgow,and the nineteen intelligent college educated young men who exploded themselves and 3000 other human beings into the World trade center on 9/11 2001.
We should be trying to figure out ways to cure people of
this deadly mind disease called religion,and trying to figure out ways to prevent children from being indoctrinated into
whatever religion his/her parents and culture insist is the one true faith.
The world we should be aiming for is a world where reason
rules,and religion is seen as nonsense

Judgment? How about all those Muslim doctors who participated in the latest British terror plot? Most people would expect doctors to be wise because they are educated, intelligent and disciplined people. There are some patterns of bad judgment that seem to repeat in the Muslim world. On this Independence day as we celebrate freedom let's remember 911 and the desire of some to take our freedom. With the restrictions we now have in the airports and everywhere else to a large extent they have already stolen an important part of our freedom and Independence. Cal is worried about temporal judgment abilities of Pagans? Where is the connection or the facts to support this? But we should take note that even doctors infected with Islamic ideology are willing to blow up innocent civilians. And who would ever want to live under Islamic law yet that is their vision and their active exercise of temporal judgment.

"Still, I wonder about a person's judgment if he, or she, has embraced paganism with all of the evidence available concerning an orderly universe and the creative mind behind such order."

That distant thudding you hear is not fireworks, but me banging my head against my monitor. Cal does the same thing that a vocal minority of atheists do, which is to accuse the other side of stupidity. Orderliness in the universe does not prove that conscious being created the universe. The burden of proof is on those who reject the idea of such orderliness arising from completely natural causes.

Cal,

I'll take the judgement of 99% of the Pagan community over yours any day! At least Pagans believe in "Harm none" and "what you do comes back threefold". If King George the Incompetent had believe in that, he wouldn't be getting the threefold blowback from his anti-Constitutional actions now.

Happy Independence Day. Live Free Or Die; Death Is Not The Worst Of Evils. May God Continue to Bless the USA.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Rnf7DS5YlQ

I suppose 'many aren't thinking:'

'Having judged incorrectly concerning the great "I Am," talking directly to George Bush and telling him it was a great idea to drop the hunt for Bin Laden and invade Iraq in a 'crusade' with *no plan,* would a Christian be considered wise enough to judge temporal things? And, in an age when virtually every politician is forced to claim some kind of religion or be called 'Anti-God and with the terrorists,' could it be a good thing for a Christian to win?'

Should probably point out to Cal that Paganism *is* some kind of religion.

And I saw you on TV today. I wouldn't go to the 'reason' place if I were you. :)

Cal. You are a man who will say what many are thinking. I salute you.

Att: Expensive & C H E A P;

"whopped the tar out of the Persians"

O.K. Eclati-On(s). Let US Vote on two Questions?:

1) Whoppa the Tar out of Iran Shiats, OR,

2) NO Whppa the tar out of the Mullahs?

Gon't be CHEAP, Never Flout the Force Cheap, or youl have an expensive heuristical [Eternal Spirit] planet hopping ordeal.

Two hints: When someone Looses a Limb. They Do not see it but they Feel, each etc.. It. And;

Your Eternal Heuristical is that thing planted in your frontal lobe that never sleep! And more. Comming This Fall.

Praise the Holy No Mon nonjealous thus fearless LORD/GOD/ALMIGHTY/ECLAT + i, in and of U.S. & ALL!

We only got one god because we're cheap. Small wonder it never comes through for us. Now take the case of those who decided to ride out Katrina in a church praying to their one cheap god. Didn't work did it. Ah yes, but when you die. Bologny!

The ancient Greeks prayed to their god of war and whopped the tar out of the Persians. Later on, a Greek, (Macedonian) Alexander, was fathered by a god, not the cheap Jew/Christian/Muslim god but Zeus and he conquered the whole world. See. Breaking up the detail for several gods works while relying on a single god fails.

Dream on Cal. Believe that garbage about your cheap god coming through after you're dead. The gods of the underworld are too busy to hear anyone except those that talk to them directly. They'll feed you to the critter because they never heard from you before.

Cal, you sure are a sad case. Pitiful, pitiful.

Hee. Paganic Synapse Fulfillment. I like that. :)

W O R L D*****V I E W, et al;

Thank You for the Paganic Synapse fullfilment! Ya Ya!

And as for referring to Jesus as a zombie,
what's the problem? The guy's been dead for
two thousands years,if he existed in the first
place:because that is not necessarily a given.

Some religious historians have shown that
Jesus-type stories existed hundreds of years
before Jesus was born,including virgin births,
mangers and crucifixions,etc.etc.ad. infinitum.
The past is littered with myths and legends,
and sorting out the real from the unreal is
almost impossible.

Cal Thomas doesn't seem, as already mentioned, to have any idea what Paganism is. I'm interested, though, at how far he'd push this idea. In reality (rather than theory), would he be so hesitant to vote for a Hindu? A Buddhist? An (shudder!) atheist? (Surveys show a huge chunk of Americans wouldn't - more than who would refuse to vote for gays, Muslims, blacks, or women - no data on voting preferences given a Black Muslim lesbian).

Meanwhile, this here atheist has gone to the polls every few years and voted for Christian (as far as we can tell) presidential candidates without blinking an eye, despite thinking their religious beliefs were completely implausible and odd. In theory and reality, I've had no problem voting for theists of any stripe, as long as I think that they're qualified, willl more or less represent my political views (at least compared to the competition) and uphold the Constitution.

But Brother Thomas has shown me the error of my ways! From now on, I will be forced to wonder about the judgment of anyone confused enough as to have embraced religion with all of the evidence pointing to a mechanistic universe, and the natural, non-intentional forces behind such an arrangement! Having judged incorrectly concerning the nature of reality, can they be considered wise enough to judge anything? After all, they might decide to launch random wars to hasten the end of days, or ignore global warming because God wouldn't let such a thing happen. From now on, I'm only voting for sane, sober atheists for President!!

Um. Wait. Er . . . oh dear.

Seriously though - what an unpleasant view! At least Cal's honest enough (or *something*, anyway) to put this sort of bigotry out in the open, where it can be mocked and rejected. Sensible people are sensible people, whatever their religion; folks with poor judgment or worse are (repeat), whether they're Christian, Pagan, atheist, or whatever.

wise decision mrmark. and because you devote yourself to logic -i'm counting on you to not waste our time here anymore. thanks buddy.

Wow, Cal. You've just penned one of the greatest displays of willful ignorance in the history of the WP.

But I don't blame you entirely. I blame Meacham and Quinn for allowing such infantile columns to appear on this forum. Their "faith" enterprise is becoming a laughing stock of well-practiced stupidity.

This column may be the last straw for me. Most of the columns here would draw an "F" in a first-year logic class. Your columns, Cal, are a total waste of time and the bit of energy you spend regurgitating religious lies and bromides. Who has time for such crap? Increasingly, not me.

Cal

It's like you're checkmated but refuse to accept it.

If Paganism is wacky why is Christianity not equally wacky?
Because to most rational people it is,
with your goodguy God and your evil Devil
doing battle for the "souls" of earthlings,
and the fear of Hell and damnation,and the
promised land of Heaven for God's chosen,and on
and on and on.Its gibberish Cal. just like all
the other supernatural belief systems created
from the fear of death.
There is as much evidence for a Christian God
as there is for Apollo, or Jupiter,or Pinocchio.
Evidence is a word best avoided by supernaturalists.

Well, Paganism has no geographical center, really, JJ. Certainly the 'Pagans' of Arabia of Mohammed's time were rather different from certainly the modern kind, and rather much so from the Pagan practices of the pre-Christian Europeans: (I don't know much about the tribal Arabians, but I have heard their culture was much like the Bedouin, for what that's worth) ...to modern Pagans, there may be special places, but the center of Paganism is wherever you cast the center of a circle: there's no centralized authority like that.

Some places that have been considered the 'Center of the Pagan World' include Delphi, Stonehenge, Tara in Ireland, Glastonbury Tor, ...quite a few, really.

Nothing's really on the order of Jerusalem or Mecca, though.

CAL THOMAS: **Still, I wonder about a person's judgment if he, or she, has embraced paganism with all of the evidence available concerning an orderly universe and the creative mind behind such order.**

And how is my belief in a living earth, and myself a part of it, less rational than the idea of talking snakes, a piece of fruit that imparts the ability to differentiate bewteen good and evil when eaten, a woman created from a man's rib, flying prophets, a virgin birth, or a man rising from the dead after three days?

**Having judged incorrectly concerning the great "I Am," would a pagan be considered wise enough to judge temporal things?**

Most faiths proclaim that every other faith has "judged incorrectly" concerning the nature and proper worship of the Divine. According to your logic, that would mena that no member of any faith would be fit for public office.

**And, in an age when virtually every politician claims some kind of religion, could a pagan win?**

Paganism IS my religion. You obviously have no idea what a Pagan actually is.

Would I vote for Cal Thomas?

Theory vs. Reality

Theoretically, yes, if Cal was competent and experienced enough to be trusted with the presidency. This is, after all, a "kingdom of this world" office, though many like to infuse it with religious overtones.

Still, I wonder about Cal's judgment if he has embraced Judaism or Christianity with all of the evidence available concerning an orderly self-regulating manifest Goddess in the form of the Earth, and the other creative
Gods and Goddesses behind such order. Having judged incorrectly concerning the great "They Are," would a Jew or Christian like Cal Thomas be considered wise enough to judge temporal things? And, in an age when virtually every conservative columnist supports and works for a "news" channel, infamous for bearing false witness, could someone like Cal Thomas win?

Probably not.

Umm, JJ?

"Note Brethre(s), Sistar(s), Paganism is Pre-Apaclyptic & has It's Roots in the KABBA, in Mecca Saudia Arabia during From [pbuh] Muhammads Time."

Umm.

No, that's not true.

Anyway, Eric. I know that when we hear constant intolerance of other religions and people that I know darn well Christianity teaches, (I was taught these things myself, while being raised Catholic....) it's pretty common to say:

"PaganPlace, I want to answer your rhetorical question, "As for it not being Christian of you, well, funny how it just seems to keep happening. I wonder where you learn that."
I am a flawed human being. The only person that lived a totally Christian life was Christ, whom I definitely fall short of. You must realize that Christianity is a faith for people who know that they are terminally messed up and want to get right with their Creator."

You don't have to be 'terminally messed-up.'

Certainly it doesn't make sense to say this, and then use the same religion as some kind of authority to try and claim other people are.

I know we're kind of supposed to be the 'bad guys' in Christian mythology, and, well, I'm sorry about that, what can be done. But that doesn't mean we as real people deserve to be treated as such.

Thanks Eric. I stole the line from another commenter, and I still think it's a pretty good summary of how Christian beliefs might look to non-Christians unfamiliar with the faith, but If I ever use it again maybe I'll substitute "2000 year old Rabbi" for "zombie"...and try to make my intentions clearer.

Regards

A Hermit

Wow, Condor, you sound like quite the "passionate ideologue and devoted zealot" there! ;)

Has God entrusted His self-proclaimed messenger, George W. Bush, with the mission to bring disorder into an orderly world? The "mind" that would do that may be "creative" but not one most of us would find congenial. That's certainly "beyond human understanding," no doubt about it. The Pagans couldn't do more than Bush to disrupt the God-given impetus of humanity toward the light. After all, for all we know, it may be the Pagans who are carrying out God's will and the fundamentalists Christians who, wittingly or unwittingly, are doing Satan's business. The signs are all there: how many gay, drug-using, child-abusing Elmer Gantrys have to be exposed before we are clear on this? How many lecherous, tax-frauding, diamond-trading, TV-preacher men do we need before their evangelical scam is clear? Before God, there was the Chaos, and after all, is it not George W. Bush and the theocratic Christian dominionists who are surely helping recreate and add to Disorder and Chaos along with all the other misbegotten fundamentalists and passionate ideologues and devoted zealots of every lunatic fringe?

PaganPlace, I want to answer your rhetorical question, "As for it not being Christian of you, well, funny how it just seems to keep happening. I wonder where you learn that."
I am a flawed human being. The only person that lived a totally Christian life was Christ, whom I definitely fall short of. You must realize that Christianity is a faith for people who know that they are terminally messed up and want to get right with their Creator. That includes me.

And thank you for the apology and explanation, Hermit. Very gracious of you. Sorry I called you a loser.

Umm, what, Michael?

Only truth here is it's unlikely a Pagan could win a major election in this political climate of media-driven 'religious tests for public office.'

But that's not how it's supposed to be.

Not that I know any Pagans with that kind of political ambition, anyway.

Thank you, Cal Thomas.

The TRUTH does hurt and we MUST connect the dots before it is too late.

oops; the "I AM" question was for another thread. Although Cal mentions it here too. Any chance he'll respond?

eric s;

Sorry if the "zombie" quote offended you. I was just trying to point out to Cal (if he even bothers to read his comments) that it's silly of him to question someone else's judgement on the basis of their having a different religious belief (one which he clearly doesn't know anything about) when his own religion has some pretty odd ideas itself. Cal is the one who started the mocking of other people's religion here, not me. Maybe its wrong of me to respond in kind, but like you I get tired of that kind of thing, and Cal seems to be especially prone to it.

regards

A Hermit

PS: Is this the "I AM" you are referring to?
http://www.saintgermainfoundation.org/ It's hard for a loser zombie like me to keep them all straight...;-)

"This July 4, Pagans are rallying outside the White House. They want the military to add a Pagan chaplain. Should they get one? Would you vote for a Pagan for public office?"

YES and YES. Only Constitutional Ignoramuses would answer NO to the first question.

Only anti-Pagan bigots would answer NO to the second question. We already have a pair of trolls heading the federal government. Pagans are far more enlightened than your run-of-the-mill trolls.

BTW, the original name for the SURGE in Iraq was to have been TROLLS ON A ROLL (referring not to the soldiers but to the civilian leadership) but the PR folks had qualms. I don't understand why.

"Yes. Why not? Don't most Americans act and live like pagans anyway :) "

And how do you say 'Pagans' act, Tim?

Sounds like a *wee* bit of denial about what this so-called 'Christian society' has wrought.

Or else how little of 'moonbats' we really are. :)

Eric S:
As for who the 'someone' that was quoted talking about just how bizarre Christian beliefs would seem if you weren't so used to them, I think that was Bgone: not a Pagan, and in any event, it was in response to Christians mocking Pagan beliefs.

We're pretty tired of it, too.

As for it not being Christian of you, well, funny how it just seems to keep happening. I wonder where you learn that.

Yes. Why not? Don't most Americans act and live like pagans anyway :) Happy 4th of July all.

Khote - I guess it wasn't very polite of me, and not representative of Christ, but I also get weary of ad-hominem name-calling attacks towards me and my Lord and toward the the Christian faith. I am sorry, but calling Jesus a "zombie" is just as rude and insulting as can be.

That's great Eric S: I know you are but what am I?

hah! And I'm accused of name-calling when I refer to believers as childish. I do thank you for making my point for me, far better than I ever could

Wow, Cal, you really touched a nerve in the Moonbat community this time!

The guy who thinks he's being clever with...

"You believe a 2000 year old Jewish zombie, who is his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree..."

...is particularly amusing. He is among those who simply deny that the Creator of the universe is all-powerful, all-good, and above human understanding.
It is the person who wrote that who is the zombie, the living dead, cut off from God and His eternal life. You lose, Hermit!

Cal,
Would you please capitalize Pagan...it is as proper a name as Christian.

And please do some research on what Paganism is before making a statement. You seem to not get the drift of what it is or how we see Deity.

You have more of a duel belief then more Pagans do. We see all as One...many facets to that One but One entity. You otherwise believe in two gods..your God of all good and a god of all bad. And even that god of all good is psycotic.

We see all life in a very ordered way, while most Christians see things as a tug of war between your two gods.We see a divine spark in all creation, connected in one web of life.

So cal, learn up! Knowledge is also sacred to us...science is part of our religion...we do not fear it, but we use it as the explaination of the workings of the Gods. If a new discovery is made, we right our misconseptions within our teachings.But often the new discoveries prove our teachings, not disprove them.

Many Christians would rather ignore facts because it makes you doubt your faith's facts. When you have something written in stone, the whole thing has to be broken to make it fit the facts. We flow, you duck and dodge.

Blessings,
terra

OK Ray, thank God the Greeks said it. I was beginning to worry it wasn't so.

Now I see the origin of hell. The gun to the head causes people to "want" to do what the one holding the gun says. Since we will never cease to exist the only way to control us is the "gun of hell" to our heads.

Pagans are as legit as so-called monotheist and perhaps even more so. The first commandment forbids giving definition to God, however. God can be said with some safety to be the sum total of all the gods, in all that God is said to have, all powerful, ever present, invisible and so on. So the ultimate pagan, those who worship all gods actually worship but one God the accumulation of all gods.

Pagans hold the sun to be a god. So do all three great faiths. Which god is the father of Jesus? Well there is, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul to guide us. Oops! That's not God. That's the Devil. We know it's really the sun and Jesus was a woman dumb enough to believe it was her father.

So the more nitwits the merrier, bring on the Pagan Chaplin. Any Marine seen in the near vicinity of the Chaplin will be laughed out of the Corps. Now Pagan Chaplin could change that, a little prayer to the "war" god before the battle might actually help, give encouragement.

Did Lieutenant Pat Robertson of the Marines actually suffer combat fatigue *before* the battle began? He probably prayed to the wrong god.

Hey, wasn't Cal one of the ones calling atheists 'anti-Christian bigots' for saying the same sort of thing about a Christian's judgement?

I'd question *Cal's* rationality if he were running for office, with blazes of illogic such as he uses above. :)

But Pagans could in general be *well* qualified for public office: after all, we dont't think the end of the world is somehow a good thing, and plan on coming back to live with the results of what we do. :)

Hey Ray, put http:// in front like http://www.greatpath.org Folks is too lazy to look otherwise.

I don't think Paganism is any more irrational than your religion Cal.

Someone in another thread summed it up something like this: (thnaks Duckphup...)

"You believe a 2000 year old Jewish zombie, who is his own father, can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him that you accept him as your master so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree..."

And you question other people's judgement if they DON'T believe that?!?

pots, kettles, motes and beams Cal...

Regards

A Hermit

KNOW-THY-SELF... as eternal spirit, Socrates. transcending all man made religions at www.greatpath.org very sincerely........

You have little real understanding of what paganism means or you would realize that we believe that the divine powers are manifest in life everywhere and that the orderly universe was created by higher powers. The divine appears to us in ways that we each understand - we all have different paths.

Ssnorkk!

Evidence? There is just as much evidence for a theistic god as there is for the Giant Spaghetti Monster. Lack of understanding is NOT evidence (contrary to what the intelligent design folks would have you believe).

Wow,

Amazingly you answer all of these....with the notable exception of the Iraq war question two weeks ago.

Interesting.