Another Reason Evangelicals are Growing

Again lest God act to intervene hell is a man or woman's ultimate destination.

The statement that one can do something does not of necessity imply that one will or even needs to do that something.

Roy: " "they preach and teach with an assurance" that they are right and others are wrong including their political views "

Prove it.

Andrew Maddox: "It seems that most of the people commenting here are expressing signs of desperation as they defend superstition."

Prove it.

These are both stereotypical assumptions that have no merit whatsoever. These are opinions that are fueled by bias, but no facts. Nice try though.

nic brady: "Put that silly bible away for a while and read some really interesting books."

“Infidels, with all their assaults, make about as much impression on this book as a man with a tack hammer would on the Pyramids of Egypt…If this book [the Bible] had not been the book of God, men would have destroyed it long ago. Emperors and popes, kings and priests, princes and rulers have all had their hand at it; they die and the book still lives.”
H. L. Hastings

“A thousand times over, the death knell of the Bible has been sounded, the funeral procession formed, the inscription cut on the tombstone, and committal read. But somehow the corpse never stays put.”
“No other book in all human history has in turn inspired the writing of so many books as the Bible”
Bernard Ramm

“If every Bible in any considerable city were destroyed, the Book could be restored in all its essential parts from the quotations on the shelves of the city public library. There are works, covering almost all the great literary writers, devoted especially to showing how much the Bible has influenced them.”
Cleland B. McAfee

“Behold the works of our philosophers; with all their pompous diction, how mean and contemptible they are by comparison with the Scriptures! Is it possible that a book at once so simple and sublime should be merely the work of man?”
Famous French philosopher Jean Jacques Rouseau

“The Bible is not such a book a man would write if he could, or could write if he would”
Lewis S. Chafer

“We might as well put our shoulder to the burning sun, and try to stop it on its flaming course, as attempt to stop the circulation of the Bible.”
Unknown Author

And here's the best one...

“A thorough knowledge of the Bible is worth more than a college education.”
Theodore Roosevelt

I suggest you read a little more of you Bible. Angela, keep up the good work.

Hellow Mr. or Miss A. Nony Mous:

Where do you live that you still use a "slop bucket?" You must be an "old-timer" to make such a reference.

I know why Chris Everett came to Cal Thomas's thread, I think. It is because on antoher thread, I was remarking on apathy towards knowledge, and used Cal Thomas as an example, that his essays here on this forum are almost catatonic in their uninspired apathy; he could not care less. Even my briefest thoughts are more extensive than one of his essays.

So, what's the deal with him? He certainly seems to have all the symptoms of apathy towards knowledge. I say, jettison him, and let someone more interested take his place.

Chris Everett: You inspire easy. Have you gazed into the slop bucket recently? Lots of inspiration there too.

Andrew Maddox,

I'm not sure why I clicked on the Cal Thomas
blog, but I'm glad I did. It must have been a miracle! Your words are an inspiration to me.

Smart and Dumb Belief in God

Karen and Jeff: glad to see that you two are communicating well after the initial bump. You are both wonderfully humane and spiritual people, so you SHOULD get along.

I think we might all agree that there are "smarter and dumber" ways to believe in God, just as there are in being an atheist.

The difficulties that certain ("mostly fundamentalist") groups make for themselves and the world generally have to do with "excessive" faith getting in the way of effectively dealing with the world.

Extreme examples (or NOT so exreme, given the statistics) are denying clearly demonstrated scientific evidence, for instance in the area of evolution, which 80% of fundamentalist christians don't believe in. Or having faith that flying an airplane into a building to kill infidels will result in an immediate trip to Virgin filled paradise.

So there IS a danger in certain types of religious belief, and great virtues in other kinds.

Right on the mark Cal and Lucifer just loves it.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is for those who still have possession of their souls. It's probably too late for those like you that have surrendered to the will of Lucifer...worship the biggest Devil of them all calling Him God.

I think you're wrong about evangelicals growing in number. They are changing their registration to Democrat in droves. Can't help but notice that. Maybe president Obama will give them a push and get them started back to righteous.

Jeff.

Yeah...what happened to my post of the Grayling article? I can't believe they deleted it and left the Hillary design intact...(that from Josevz Jacob by the look of it.)

However...let me recommend "The Form of Things"by ACGrayling. Also "The Heart of Things", "The Meaning of Things",and "The Reason of Things". All very interesting books by a most interesting and wise philosopher.

It seems that most of the people commenting here are expressing signs of desperation as they defend superstition. It really is tragic and frankly a frustrating aspect of existence in America that Americans who have every opportunity for intellectual freedom seem to be lazy, unwilling or perhaps too fearful to take the leap towards enlightenment preferring to embrace the claptrap that emanates from the superstition peddlers, circus huckster clerics. Who in their right mind believes that Noah’s Ark is a true story or that Creationism offers insights into anything? Way too many Americans do for sure. BTW The 10 Commandments are basically wicked and misogynist. What’s the deal with a jealous boyfriend god that threatens damnation and hellfire if you dare check out another god? Isn’t that the modus of ex-lovers who stalk, assault and murder?

Yes of course there is no difference between Astrology, I Ching, crystal ball gazing, Judaism, Christianity or Islam etc. Religion is by definition the practice of myth, magic and superstition. Why we don’t as people seeking the common good take action and indict clerics for marketing something that isn’t proven is beyond me. Superstition peddlers and the whacky beliefs they continue to infect the gullible with deserve ridicule and criticizing for deluding the emotionally immature. When the pope/king dresses up like a Las Vegas show girl and parades on stage chanting magic words while waving a wand a la Harry Potter everyone really should break out in laughter yet thanks to the emotional bullying from childhood religious conditioning most can only genuflect as feudal serfs before a monarch. How crazy is that?

What part of reality aren’t you people eager to embrace? Why are you so willing to regurgitate the wretched rants of primitive, cave people as if any of their vile ways should be used as guidance today?

“Both Dawkins and Hitchens detail the Bible's disturbing violence, with the former submitting that the Old Testament God is "arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction. Jealous and proud of it, a petty, unjust, unforgiving control freak, a vindictive bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser, a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully." That's from Dawkins' 'The God Delusion' chapter one.

Growing up emotionally, being skeptical and thinking abstractly can only lead one to the truth and that is there are no gods or to date none are proven to exist, that clerics are frauds, and that Creationism/ ID are just plain stupid and inane etc. Oh and the fear of death is a waste of life.

A Note to the Moderator:

Why is Nic's historical post deleted when "Vote for Hillary Clinton" is kept, in it's entirety, and takes up about half of my scrolling page to bypass?

And it's frustrating to see anyone's posts deleted, including Angela's prayer demonstration. Who makes the decisions to delete?

Karen, yep (LOL) I don't dare post on political blogs, for fear of having my head ripped from my shoulders even over the internet!

The older I get, the more I realize what I don't know. Certainties in my past have dissolved, much, much reading has broadened my life and enjoyment of it, and finally, meeting people like you enrich each day. Thanks for the post.

Jeff P. I appreciate your response. What I wrote was mainly in response to posts by Norman Ravitch and Temp-pest.

I do not like generalizations anymore then you do, which is why I posted my response. I should therefore have said "some" non-believers.
Having said that, I have been asked many times by well meaning non-believers: how can a smart woman like you believe in God (or the Bible or miracles etc.)? This cleary equates faith with dumbness. Yet much smarter people then I have believed through history and to this day.

Yes, my faith does bring great comfort to me. I believe in sharing the good news of the gospels with people that they too may be comforted and encouraged but I do not believe in clobbering people with my faith or demonizing them if they don't believe as I do. The essence of faith is free will, free choice.

Finally, I would say that sadly, this duality and separation that you see are not just to be found among believers/non-believers. Somehow, a lot of people these days seem incapable of disagreeing about important things without demonizing the other side. We see this in politics, the drawing up school boundaries, for or against national health care, etc. NO matter what the topic, people mount the barricades and start shooting with words or actual bullets. The topic of religion may inflame people even more but not by much, and I think we all need a good dose of civility when talking to people that disagree with us.

Karen, respectfully, the original implication from Mark Eaton was that Evangelicals (that he knew) read more than 5 books a year. Also, in that post, there was an implication that the universities that began as religious institutions somehow slid into an abysmal state of secularism, and that somehow that might represent a loss to our society.

I think (at least) I implied that the Christians who post here seemed very well-read. As a former Christian of 46 years, I didn't (during that time) consider myself a country-bumpkin, nor would I consider you in that category. However, yes there are measurable statistics that relay how well-read certain parts of the country are, and I questioned Mark's sources on that, because the data I see suggest the opposite. In fact, I would be very wary to suggest that those areas that are most heavily religious are, in generally any respect, superior to less-religious areas, on any measure of human well-being. I would love to be corrected on that knowledge, so if you do have a reliable source, please let me know.

Finally, faith is simply that, faith. If it offers you comfort, great. During my "believing years," I supported a very personal friend and family in Africa who were employed by the Wycliffe Bible translators. I understand where you are in your spiritual life.

The point of "non-believers" posting at On Faith is not to hassle "believers," but in some small way perhaps to suggest that it's not necessarily an "us" versus "them" world; religious divisions are comfortable to their respective believers, but maybe not healthy in the public sphere; "belief" or "faith" might not particularly be as virtuous as we were brought up to think it might be.

Where I and others see religious faith in zealous opposition to human progress, or instituted in ways that wedge their way into politics, or battle against reason or scientific progress, I think we are more vocal than we used to be perhaps. But ultimately, I would suggest that most non-believers realize that we are ALL the same in regard to human realizations and potential, and we are eager to see divisions among humans be miminized, barries broken down, unjust authority destroyed, and the least of people served and cared for. Not a lot different from some of the messages of Jesus...

I am not sure why non-believers must insist that believers are ignorant or anti-intellectual. Does it make you feel better to think that only dumb, uneducated people can be christians/evangelicals?

I think it is important to note that the explosion in evangelical growth has coincided with increased rates of literacy as well as increased availability of Bibles translated in thousands of languages and at affordable prices. The evangelical approach emphasizes a personal relationship with God. Evangelicals are encouraged to bring their Bibles to church and to find out for themselves whether their pastors are speaking the truth. The example of the Bereans, who double checked Paul's preaching by going to their scriptures is always held up as the example to follow. In the old days, people went to church because the priest, who was the only one who could read the latin Bible, was their only conduit to God's word. But now almost all of us ave access to God's word and thanks to Wycliffe Bible Translators, more and more people have access to God's word in their mother tongue. What Norman said applied to the middle ages, but not to us now.

I too belong to a book club. We all read a lot and 5 out of 6 of us are commited christians.
Speaking for myself, I speak 3 languages, I have a graduate degree, I work in medical research, I am well travelled and I read on average 2-3 books a week, the majority of which are not christian books or written by christian authors. The Bible church that I attend is full of highly educated and intellignent people. And yet we believe in God with all our hearts.

If you are a non believer, it is your right to disagree with us, to call our faith foolish or silly and so on. No problem. My faith is not based on winning a popularity contest. But I just think it is too easy to dismiss us as country bumpkins who, if they cared to read a "real book" would stop believing in fairy tales.

GaryD:

"...He sends no one to hell..."

Matthew 10:28:
"And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."

"they preach and teach with an assurance" that they are right and others are wrong including their political views

Jeff P. Yes such is the chutzpah of man the creature that he offers critiques of God the creator. God Saves whom he will. He sends no one to hell rather he must act to save them from it.

Connecting growing evangelical movement and changing religion

Has anyone read Appleby's America? The evangelical movement is illustrated in that book as a major innovator of marketing techniques that are also used by industry and politicians. A successful preacher is a marketer too. Is it any wonder that a number of us are pulled from one Church to another as we are attracted as much by the availability of child care or the church bowling group as by the particular version of Christianity offered by the preacher? Are we so shallow? Maybe!

Brambleton:
**If you walked into your local church and asked people why they worked hard to provide for their family, or loved their brothers and sisters, or volunteered in their community, I would be shocked if you got a single one to say "I fear a fiery torture chamber" or "I lust for eternal harp music." Their meaning in life is drawn from their relationship with Christ and with one another.**

I provide for my family because I love them and want to be sure they have everything they need and at least some of what they want.

I love my sister because she is a good person. Same goes for why I love my friends.

I volunteer in my community becaue it is my community and I want to make it a better place to live, both for myself and for all my neighbors.

And none of my reaasons have anything to do with Jesus.

Mark Eaton:

“but you cannot deny they are different”
I’m sorry, but are you actually saying Jesus was the first to suggest that lying might be a bad thing?

“many of His words are totally opposite of what our human nature tells us to do”

No, I don’t think so. What is the source of human nature? It is either given to us as a gift from god, or is something we learn from those around us. We do not all have the same god, are not all hanging around the same people, so one man’s human nature may be quite different from yours…

“If your enemy strikes you, what will you do”
Let me ask you, if an enemy strikes your child, or your wife, what will you do?

Possum,

Not sure how you can know what my views on atheism are when I haven't stated any. But, I digress....

If you walked into your local church and asked people why they worked hard to provide for their family, or loved their brothers and sisters, or volunteered in their community, I would be shocked if you got a single one to say "I fear a fiery torture chamber" or "I lust for eternal harp music." Their meaning in life is drawn from their relationship with Christ and with one another.

If you go to Ben & Jerry's to get an ice cream cone, you're not going because you love the cherry on top. You go because you enjoy the ice cream. The cherry is merely an accoutrement.

As an aside, I hate to burst your bubble but "your way" is not the only way that works. Having a meaningful life from a Christian perspective adds no less to family, friends, and the community than someone who has meaning without Christianity. In fact, I would argue that it adds more.

Dear Temp-Pest:

What I meant by Jesus' words being totally different was that many of His words are totally opposite of what our human nature tells us to do. If your enemy strikes you, what will you do? Your human nature says to hit back but Jesus says to turn the other cheek. Got yourself in a jam and need to tell a little white lie? Jesus says let your Yes be yes and your No be no. Achieved a high standing in the comunity and you deserve the best seat in the house? Jesus says let the first be last and the last be first.

You may not think His words are exceptional but you cannot deny they are different. We quote His words so many times in everyday speech that we do not even acknowledge they are His words.

Brambleton…

“And how is it that Christians "don't understand the point of living"
I never said that.. I merely posited that christianity, as well as most other religions created a meaning to comfort themselves, to give cosmic value to their often dreary existence. I am well aware that devout Christians believe in an eternal, blissful afterlife with Jesus and will sacrifice personal earthly pleasure to achieve it. I have no doubt that they fully believe what they believe.

“Was there some book passed around at the secret meeting that provided the world with the absolute truth”
I claim no secret or superior knowledge. I’ve been to no meetings, it’s religious people that go to meetings pass the book around and claim to have the ‘absolute truth’.

I simply believe there is no meaning to life (mankind) .

For life (mankind) to have meaning would imply intent. Intent implies an intender, I do not believe there is a being that has or had a plan for mankind. No planner, no intender, no meaning. Life, (mankind) just is.

That does not mean that MY life has no ‘meaning’; I have plans, intentions, goals and desires. I work hard, contribute to family, friends, and community because it works. Not because I fear a fiery torture chamber or lust for eternal harp music.

“Your views on Christianity are stereotypical at best, and comical at worst”

As are your views/understanding of atheism.

Henry: you are right about the good Jesus. There's absolutely nothing that can be said in rebuttal about some of the good things Jesus said and did. He was a figure I deeply admire, and I love many of his stories.

Mark: I expect many Christians on this post do read over 5 books a year. There are many articulate and well-spoken Christians here. However, I've seen other statistics that describe how, in most southern states, "the Bible belt," both reading skills and reading interest are at some of the lowest levels in the world. I'd be curious regarding your information source, because I've just not seen that particular stat.

PS I too love that line from National Treasures. Isn't it true? Just read through the declaration of Independence, or the Preamble of the US Constitution--it'll run chills down your spine.

Possum,

Your views on Christianity are stereotypical at best, and comical at worst.

And how is it that Christians "don't understand the point of living" but you do? Was there some book passed around at the secret meeting that provided the world with the absolute truth on the meaning of life? Maybe you could share with the rest of the class? What is the difference between your views on life's meaning and that of a Christian?

So to recap. . . Millions of Christians don't understand the meaning of life but you do. Yet Christians are driven by egotistical motives and you're not?

I think the shifting around between.. and out of Christian churches is a direct result of those groups *politicizing* everything... a shift from the former more family-ethnic identifications to where they end up polarized.

Mark Eaton:
“most Evangelicals I know still read more than 5 books a year.”
I am a member of a reading club.. we read a lot more than 5 books per year, and not an evangelical among them. Point being: localized anecdotal evidence proves/disproves nothing.

“theological curriculums which over the years got railroaded over to secular education” How did that happen? Did the universities perhaps seek out state funding or control? Please elaborate.

“there are so many things that cannot be measured. Love, respect, servitude, honor, integrity, and character”
You mean emotions and personality traits? That proves that there is a omniscient and omnipotent god?
(I’m not sure where servitude fits)

“The things we as people used to strive for”

Which people, and when was that? And these do not exist now? There were no tyrants a$$es or
evil bas__trds? No jerks?

“I have explored the things these authors have to say and they leave me with no new knowledge, no truth, no wisdom, nothing totally foreign to myself”

This presupposes that there are actually things foreign to yourself, new knowledge, and a ‘truth’. You are seeking cosmic answers to questions with the biased assumption that such answers actually exist, and you merely discount all that does not support that assumption.

“Its only the words of Jesus that have proved to be totally different than anything anyone has ever said.”
Once again, because it was probably the words of Jesus that originated the very questions you ask. Of course his other words will provide the answers… this is an age-old sales technique. Create a problem, then sell the solution. “You tired of nasty soap scum?” “Do roll on deodorants leave you feeling sticky?’ “ Tired of driving the same old boring car every day?”
Tired of being poor? Tired of being hungry? Tired of being trod upon by the wealthy and greedy? We’ve got something for you!

“What is the meaning of life?” is in fact a leading and biased question. It presupposes that there is a meaning, and kept otherwise useless philosophers occupied for centuries.

Jeff P in one of his humane and sane posts writes to Gary
"Nothing in Christianity, despite the scripture, is "hidden from me." And if it is, you have a despicable god."

Gary's God, and that Jesus who recruits "soldiers" (as opposed to the Good Jesus)

are indeed despicable because they inspire hate and fear, and lead Gary and many others to live and preach hate and fear.

Read the Buddha. Practice Loving Kindness towards your fellow humans.

Brambleton;
“I would argue that "true Christian living" is hardly comfortable”

The whole point of religion is to offer comfort. (and control, but that is a discussion for another day) People are afraid of dying so ‘eternal life’ is offered up. People don’t understand the point of living, so one is dreamed up. People don’t understand why bad people get away with doing bad things, so cosmic justice is created, people don’t know why they are hungry, or diseased, or dying, so they are told about a pain-free afterlife with many mansions and that the poor and the meek will inherit the earth (we can’t fix your poverty or promise you relief from it, but don’t worry, it’ll be taken care of once you die, so rejoice in your bad fortune, it’s a blessing!). Afraid of a noise in the dark or a nasty storm headed your way? Pray… Prayer changes things. There you are part of the solution now, relax, you have done your part to fix the problem you can control the uncontrollable.
This stuff worked beautifully when you were a kid.. Santa Claus expanded. Be good (even when mom and dad can’t see you) and you’ll get nice presents! You were comforted because you knew the rules, the rules were universal and ‘sacred’ and they applied to everyone. You were told all the stories, the good guys always won (or will), eternal reward was just around the corner, Jesus is packing you around on the beach, god is your co-pilot….. all this is contrived to comfort you.
Tempted by porn? Oooooooooh… that is a painful cross to bear (so to speak). Lust? Greed? A small price to pay for the most egotistical of motives; a greedy lust for blissful eternal life.

Thanks Brambleton. I wanted to inform Norman that several of our universities started out with theological curriculums which over the years got railroaded over to secular education and while the percentage of Americans reading at least 5 books a year is diminishing, most Evangelicals I know still read more than 5 books a year.

I would say to Nic that if you only want a world you can measure, see, and touch, then read those authors. They define the world by what they can see. However, there are so many things that cannot be measured. Love, respect, servitude, honor, integrity, and character. The things we as people used to strive for. The best of things. Old-fashioned things in todays world. Everytime I think of these things I am reminded of a line from the movie National Treasure where Ben is reading lines from the Declaration of Independence and he stops and says, "Nobody talks like that anymore". Well, I would go farther and say "nobody thinks like that anymore". Oh well, get off my soapbox.

But Nic, I have explored the things these authors have to say and they leave me with no new knowledge, no truth, no wisdom, nothing totally foreign to myself. Its only the words of Jesus that have proved to be totally different than anything anyone has ever said.

Nic,

Thank you for making a very important point. Let's say person "A" goes to public school and then graduates from a four year public university/college. Person "A" has also grown up in a Christian home, has been baptized, and lives a loving relationship with Christ our Savior. Person "B" went to the same public school and graduated from the same public university/college. However, person "B" grows up in a home devoid of faith, has no interest in spirituality, Christian or otherwise, and has no relationship with God.

Who is most likely to be more culturally literate?

Norman,

"The growth of evangelicalism must be related to the decline of education and intellectuality in America. Evangelical Christianity is the most ignorant of history, morality, philosophy, and science of all forms of Christian faith."

Could you expound on your theory? I'm interested to understand how "other" forms of Christianity have been spared "the decline of education and intellectuality in America."

Thanks.

Possum,

You stated, "With all due respect, that really sounds like you just didn’t like what there was in front of you, so you slipped back into a comfortable fantasy realm."

I would argue that "true Christian living" is hardly comfortable. Loving and accepting Christ into your life is not the easy road. Christians are bombarded by secular desires on a daily basis (i.e., pornography, lust, greed, and a whole host of other temptations).

Angela.

Put that silly bible away for a while and read some really interesting books.
Try A.C.Grayling, above,or Matt Ridley, or Stephen Pinker, or Dawkins,Harris and Hitchins,or Carl Sagan. The bible is mythological twaddle.

To Anonymous: Psalm 14: The fool [a] says in is heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good. 2 The LORD looks down from heaven on the sons of men to see if there are any who understand, any who seek God. 3 All have turned aside, they have together become corrupt; there is no one who does good, not even one.
4 Will evildoers never learn—those who devour my people as men eat bread and who do not call on the LORD ? 5 There they are, overwhelmed with dread, for God is present in the company of the righteous. 6 You evildoers frustrate the plans of the poor, but the LORD is their refuge. 7 Oh, that salvation for Israel would come out of Zion! When the LORD restores the fortunes of his people, let Jacob rejoice and Israel be glad!

Nic:

Thank you for your excellent post. Please post it as a copy in Willis Elliott's section!

Matthew:

On the contrary, I think this post is representative of a fundamental "problem" of definition: What exactly, and who exactly, are "the world" that Christianity (in particular) needs to be "against," or "above," or "removed from," or to be "in service to," or that needs to be "redeemed."

And please describe for me what is "peace with God." (Incidentally, I was a Christian for 46 years, I know the vernacular.)

The societal-personal dualities and the complex and diverse continuums are fine as they go, but there is a dangerous, divisive terminology when one wants to demonize "the world" versus serve the "kingdom of God." That's where, I'm afraid, you'll find me serving the world, and I think Nic's post above this is a refreshing reminder of some relevant history.

oh boy

This comment thread sure fell off the rails before it began. I see no where in the original blog post that it says "evangelicals are growing because they are willy-nilly afraid of anything other than themselves." It says that evangelicals are growing because "[they] preach and teach with an assurance often lacking in churches and denominations that seek to make peace with the world more than they do peace with God." This is not a matter of "us" vs. "them" in the sense of "evangelicals" vs. "everyone else." This would be a huge misnomer because that "us" in reality is far more diverse than people understand or believe. It was merely a contrast in the focus of different Protestant denominations. Some whose focus is on social justice and as an element in contemporary society, while for others the focus is on personal growth: a more intimate religious experience. What the findings show is that many are beginning to prefer the latter as opposed to the former with regards to what they want their church and Church to be.

As I said before, however the reality is somewhat more complex. This societal-personal duality is valid, however only in that it represents the extremes of a complex and diverse continuum.

The main reason that evangelicals are growing is their aggressive proselytizing of people of other faiths, especially people of other Christian faiths. Also, the fact that they preach a very simplistic version of faith - "do this, don't do that, and you'll go to Heaven". It appeals to a certain segment of the population that likes things to be straightforward.

The growth of evangelicalism must be related to the decline of education and intellectuality in America. Evangelical Christianity is the most ignorant of history, morality, philosophy, and science of all forms of Christian faith.

"...if I am cast into the Lake of Fire I will have no one to blame but myself..."

Nope. If I'm asked, I'll tell the judge that I read diligently what Angela wrote, and was convinced that I didn't want any part of what she represented. She was the total influence on my decision.

Jeff, I'm sorry you feel that way but truth is truth: Which prayer will you pick: Dear Lord, I have sinned against you breaking your commandments. Despite the conscience you gave me, I have looked with lust and therefore committed adultery in my heart. I have lied, stolen, failed to love you, failed to love my neighbor as myself, and failed to keep the Sabbath holy. I have been covetous, harbored hatred in my heart and therefore have been guilty of murder in your sight. I have used your holy name in vain, have made a god to suit myself and because of the nature of my sin, I have dishonored my parents. If I stood before You in Your burning holiness on Judgment Day, if every secret sin I have committed and every idle word I have spoken came out as evidence of my crimes against You, I would be utterly guilty and justly deserve hell. I am unspeakably thankful that Jesus took my place by suffering and dying on the cross. He was bruised for my iniquities. He paid my fine so that I could leave the courtroom. He revealed how You love me. I believe that He then rose from the dead (according to the Scriptures). I now confess and forsake my sin and yield myself to Him to be my Lord and Savior. I will no longer live for myself. I present my body, soul, and spirit to You as a living sacrifice, to serve You in the furtherance of Your Kingdom. I will read Your Word daily and obey what I read. It is solely because of Calvary's cross that I will live forever. I am eternally Yours. In Jesus' name I pray. Amen!

Satan, the Bible tells me that you are the god of this world. You are the father of lies. You deceive the nations and blind the minds of those who do not believe. God warns that I cannot enter His Kingdom because I have looked with lust and therefore committed adultery in my heart. I have lied, stolen, failed to love you, failed to love my neighbor as myself, and failed to keep the Sabbath holy. I have been covetous, harbored hatred in my heart which the Bible says is the same as murder. I have blasphemed, refused to put God first, violated the Sabbath, coveted other people's goods, therefore dishonoring my parents and have been guilty of the sin of idolatry. I even made a god to suit myself. I did all this despite the presence of my conscience. I know that it was God who gave me life I have seen the splendor of a sunrise. I have heard the sounds of nature. I have enjoyed pleasures of an incredible array of food, all of which came from His generous hand. I realize that if I die in my sins I will never know pleasure again. I know that Jesus Christ shed His life's blood for my sins and rose again to destroy the power of death but today I refuse to confess and forsake my sins. On the Day of Judgment, if I am cast into the Lake of Fire I will have no one to blame but myself. It is not God's will that I perish. He commended His love toward me through the death of His Son, who came to give me life. It was you who came to kill, steal and destroy. Your are my spiritual father. I choose to continue to serve you and do your will. This is because I love the darkness and hate the light. If I do not come to my senses, I will be eternally yours. Amen.

And with that prayer, I would add, if I am judged in the kingdom sometime, I'll describe my fall from grace because I was reading a certain Angela, who by all accounts, represented to me the utter absolute in Christian witness, and I honestly couldn't bring myself to want to be reconciled with that mentality and spirituality. It was hateful, arrogant, always "warrior" aligned, and was the reason for my fall. The false humility and condescending prayerfullness was the most convincing reason for me to reject Angela's belief-system.

Hi Cal,

Very eloquently put. Thank you.

...a firefighter and soldier for Christ to another...

Love, in Christ

GaryD
I will always respect where you are as a Christian, but will never be able to agree with you that I don't know what you're talking about.

Nothing in Christianity, despite the scripture, is "hidden from me." And if it is, you have a despicable god.

I can easily echo Mark Eaton's experiences. Trying to explain what he is getting at to one who has no experience of the Holy spirit is like trying to explain green to one born blind.

Mark:
“I knew there must be more than the world had to offer.”
With all due respect, that really sounds like you just didn’t like what there was in front of you, so you slipped back into a comfortable fantasy realm. We’re all looking at and living in the same world, I doubt that any of us find it quite perfect to our suiting.
For me, I find it quite clarifying to be rid of the shackles of myth. Trying to figure out all the bad things, sickness, death, destruction, murder, tyranny, abuse, all the things that leave many faithful pleading to their god to understand “Why”, How could god allow this?, how god could cause this?, etc. very frustrating.
The fantasy answer has to be molded, usually with circular non-logic such as ‘We can not know the mind of god” or “It’s his omnipotent will, he knows better than us” etc. these are not answers, they are merely how one answers something when the actual answer is not known. It’s the same as your mom telling you “Just because!” In other words you seem to find comfort only when the answers aren’t actually answers at all.

An atheist can look at a flood ravaging an island nation, wiping out thousands of believers and non-believers alike and not have to contort a theory to answer “Why?” We may not completely understand climatology, or meteorology but we certainly know that weather forces can be brutal, somewhat random, but are completely devoid of compassion, love, or hate. We do not need to ask “Why those people and not us?”(or vise versa) .
The world for me, imperfect as it is, makes much, much more sense now. Rather than bending myself into a knot asking ‘Why? And ‘What is the meaning’ it is much simpler for me to take it as it is, try to manage, and perhaps improve things around me, and search out the good things and good times…
Frankly I do not fully understand your assessment at all: “ there must be more than the world had to offer” What did / do you expect? Have you ever simply questioned your unrealistic expectations? Perhaps someone told you that there was more? Have you questioned their motives or explanation? Have you never been sold something that didn't quite turn out the way it was advertised? Did you go back to buy more?
Fascinating.

Mark I appreciate your post. I went the other direction, after 46 years as a very active church member and believer.

I think, problematically, "what Jesus really taught us.." is really up for grabs. Read Marcus Borg, John Spong, and other prominent theologians who vehemently disagree with the fundamentalist standards of this point.

"...the world would not love us...." and "...to save the lost..." is not helpful. Unfortunately it won't help to dialogue much among these points because as a Christian, I always had the answer to this by relying on a "spiritual kingdom" or some such, that could theoretically specify the divisions. Or I assummed that any negative feeling I received from others was because they were rejecting "Christ's spirit" that was so predicted in New Testament writings.

"...what you sow that also will you reap.." certainly isn't religious in any sense, it's common sense. Any sociologist would agree with the premise.

And that void in the heart, which can only be filled by a god-shaped peg, I believe now to be myth. However, as long as the dogma stays out of the public sphere, I would never want to deprive it from those whose lives are enriched by it.

This world is a fascinating, wonderful place that has so many unknowns in the visible/knowable/measurable realm, that can fill a lifetime with study and wonder, without the need to resort to a supernatural existance beyond all our senses. I hope some of your void might be filled by experiencing the wonder of our young discoveries of what exists, because it will only get more interesting as we learn more.

These two posts demonstrate what occurs when we believers try to separate ourselves from the world. We forget what Jesus really taught us. That He came to the world to seek and to save what was lost. He told us that the world would not love us, but to go into all the world regardless.

We should not cloister ourselves away from the world. I grew up a PK and when I came of age, I was so much like the people above. I wanted to see what the world had to offer. I had no experience with it. I had never been taught why the things of the world were "bad" or "evil". Just that they were. I found out the hard way that everything has a consequence and "what you sow that also will you reap". I have way more experience with the world than most. Most ashamedly I must admit that I have broken all ten commandments along the way.

But I have returned to the faith of my youth. Not out of self-loathing or weakness, but out of despair. The world cannot fill the void that is truly there in my heart. No person, thing, or chemical can fill it. I knew there must be more than the world had to offer.

Am I weak because of my new faith? Not in the least. Matter of fact, it take more strength and courage to take the ridicule that many sling, to deny myself when everyone around me rewards themselves, to conform myself into the image of Christ when people take advantage of me, and to turn the other cheek and go the second mile when I do not even like the person. Its not easy at all, but worth every step.

I left the faith tradition of my upbringing because the assurances I was being offered did not work for me.

...and it's one of the most central reasons I left the church: the demonization of "the world." Because, when all is said and done, "the world" defines any and all that isn't up to our individual standards. It's a dangerous, divisive, and destroying concept. GBW has taken things to the extreme (as do most Republicans) when he describes "the axis of Evil" or the Reaganesque "evil empire." Black and white is not the color of "our world."