Invitation Only, but Easy Entry to All

Why, if it's not okay for an adult christian to take Catholic communion, is it okay to give communion to children who can't possibly know whether or not they truly believe in Jesus, or Catholicism? Aren't they being placed at great risk of "sinning against the body and blood of the Lord" if it later turns out they fancy themselves some members of some other kind of faith (as a majority of people do when they get older)? We're talking about the folks who invented original sin here, so it's not like they can just claim that children get a pass because they're innocents. An adult Christian, on the other hand, is sufficiently mature to know what they believe, but that's a no-no? The illogic of it all makes me dizzy.

Given the Catholic belief in transubstantiation, I just can't wrap my brain around wanting to stand under a giant sculpture of a bleeding man nailed to a piece of wood while eating what's supposed to be bits of his flesh and and drinking his blood. I realize the ritual is incredibly meaningful for millions of people, but I find it truly disturbing. Even without belief in transubstantiation, as pure symbolism, it's still profoundly disturbing.

Hmmm, Muslims have a clearer picture of rituals? Give us a break!!!

From Hirsi Ali's book, Infidel:

paperback issue, p. 47:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!" This appalled my father. He saw this horrible, casual violence as a prime example of the crudeness of the Saudis."

Then there are rituals of the Islamic suicide bombers!!!!!

Better these men go to a Catholic Church and receive Communion at the common table of Jesus!!!!

E Favorite:

After all - many catholics don't support the church's stand on abortion or homosexuality. How likely are those people to honor any rules about communion?

July 10, 2008 11:12 AM

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I find it interesting that the only ones who seem to have a clear view of what happened here are the Pagans and Muslims. Maybe that's because they have vivid and recent experience of their rituals being trivialized and disrespected. Both traditions also teach -- apparently effectively -- supression of individual ego.

I have a good friend who has climbed Mt. Everest three times. This is an unbelievable accomplishment. What he told me is that he is a Catholic. However, before going to the top of Mt. Everest my fiend each time had to participate in a Buddhist religious ceremony. Each time he did this he compromised his own beliefs in order to get something. I asked him why he did it and his response was that you either cooperate or you don’t go to the top of Mt. Everest.

So Mss. Quinn wanted to be part of this funeral and she cooperated. She and my friend are just ships passing in the night.

It is simple, they are just people who will do anything to climb to the top of whatever mountain they think is important.

ok to run
so it will done
as it has been said
one less instead

if they close my way, i shall open their way. and we shall be through.

the title of Your article, Sir, reminded "cause it to be easy, cause it to be hard not", "cause to cheer, cause to hate not" from Ahmet prophet.

do You feel the invitation to do doctorship? yes this is what i read in the Bible, from Apostels and Saints!

what does an "engagement with Jude" mean? judengagement? judgement to be aware again?

3. One of the 12 Apostles. He is invoked in prayer when a situation seems hopeless.

no, not invitation only, this is not doctorship, no.

As I see it, Sally Quinn has two problems when it comes to taking communion.

1) She has never been a catholic and might look awkward to clergy and other catholics when taking communion.

2)She is a celebrity known not to be Catholic.

Thus she is easy to spot at the communion rail. In contrast, Catholics-turned-atheist like me have no problem fitting in. I've got all the right Catholic moves and no one knows who I am. It's easy for me to take communion at funerals, which I always make a point of doing.

I suppose there are many like me who no longer believe in God or at least don't think Christ is present in the Eucharist. Some may only attend the occasional funeral. But I bet others go to mass regularly and maybe are even pledging members at a Catholic church. Why would they do such a thing? Maybe to fit in, maybe out of habit, maybe because their used to not letting catholic doctrine that they don't support stand in their way. After all - many catholics don't support the church's stand on abortion or homosexuality. How likely are those people to honor any rules about communion?

So beware, Defenders of the Faith - heretics are all around you, cleverly disguised as Catholics in Good Standing - filching communion wafers when you least suspect it and on a regular basis.

More severe measures are called for to end this heresy.

Perhaps "Of Faith" contributors can think of some measures to apprehend these blasphemous clandestine operators.

Arminius:
As to communion, better known as the Holy Eucharist, in the Episcopal church. It is not just the wafer, but also the wine, that is blessed with the presence of Christ - the key point is that He is with us at this time. To me it can be very moving, even when simply done. It is central to our faith, and there have been many times when I picked up a piece of bread or held a glass of wine, that I have repeated the appropriate words of the service before partaking. Indeed, even baking bread - I actually do that! - now has a religious meaning.
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You'll make a Pagan yet! When the Divine is onmipresent, every meal has that feeling of communion with the Divine Presence during its preparation and consumption, even if it's as simple as a sandwich and a Guinness. I think that's the idea behind saying any sort of grace at the table - not just to thank the Divine for the food, but to remind oneself that the Divine is IN the food. We have a very simple but heartfelt grace - "We partake of this food with gratitude for all the blessings of heaven and earth, for the efforts of those who have prepared it, and for those with whom we share it."

Ironically, in life there seems to always be question of what others should or shouldn’t do or what others should or shouldn’t have done. Judging others behaviors from a distance or without having or being privy to the “entire” background behind the action/behavior/conduct is a very precarious thing to do. Needless to say, it is an offense to the one being judged.

Additionally, how do we know as the outsider looking in what that person was “thinking” at the time which precipitated their action/behavior/conduct? The answer is simple, we don’t know. Thinking for someone else by judging their actions is an unjustifiable act in itself.

Here is the problem, those of us who think that “we know” without inquiring, then allowing the person to respond to what it is you think that they have done, and determining the outcome prior too the above mention process has unequivocally committed an unjustifiable act, one of which I might add has been done without reasoning.

We all use reasoning to process information, whether it be for life’s events, decisions, or determining factors to ploy throughout our lives. What I do not understand is why “adults” are so quick to judge. Understandably, a child or teen mind has not developed fully to use reason to its maximum benefit however; one has to wonder what the excuse is for the adults?

I recently had a conversation with a stranger that included a judgment about a chuckle that I express from overhearing a statement made by another stranger sitting in close proximity to myself and the stranger that I was having the conversation with. This stranger was a gentleman that politely chided me for the chuckle based on the content of the statement and my verbal response to the statement and perceived my laugh as offensive to the other stranger. His perception preceded our conversation to the “gender specific” topic of how men and woman see, think, and interpret things differently.

I offered the stranger an apology based on my personal conviction because it was not my intention to offend anyone. However, the gentleman that I was speaking with “predicted” that my apology would not suffice because males internalize things and although an apology was given the person that I offended would continue to feel offended because he was a man.

Although, I totally agree with this gentleman’s theory for the most part I withheld saying the following during our brief encounter as not to offend him, but it does not matter whether we are male or female but at some point in our lives it is imperative that we as adults stop relying on “excuses” for our weaknesses. The whole premises behind growing up are to reach a level of “maturity,” and stop being “egocentric” and having the “all about me and my feelings” syndrome.

I like what the apostle Paul wrote in the book of Corinthians,

1 Corinthians 13:11-12, (11) When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. (12) Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.
What is the point of someone to extend an apology if it is going to b e rejected?

The following writings by the apostle Peter are good for us to live by; it is the basis of “forgiveness.”

1Peter 4:8, (8) Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins.

The Lord welcomed prostitutes and lepers, so I bet he'd be OK with Sally Quinn, too

No surprise you contradict yourself Cal like Leviticus and the New Testament. It's pretty symptomatic of narrow-minded neochristians including Catholics who would deny others the Lord's table.

You say, "It is the Lord's supper, not ours and it is He who issues the invitation to those who believe in Him and His sacrifice." Who are you or a Chruch then to hijack the supper as if it were yours not His and determine who is worthy or not?

It's all about control, guilt and manipulation and now it's about political control. What would Jesus think about you modern day Pharisees? Maybe He would throw you out of your temples, too.

I'd be interested in hearing more details. Typically in Catholic services the priest will announce that communion is available for all Catholics in good standing, or something to that effect, which clearly states the act is for Catholics only, and not even for christians of other sects. At least that has been my experience. So in this case, Sally would have been disrespectful.

I've seen it before though. Everyone gets up to take communion and you feel like an outcast, sitting there while your pew is heading toward the alter. But assuming the priest made such an announcement, which is typical at weddings and funerals when non-Catholics are likely in attendence, Sally's actions are inexcusable, especially when she heads up this forum. She is either clueless about the Catholic religion or she crashed a closed meal. Either way, Sally should explain and apologize.

BTW Arminius, I also bake bread, but the only spirituality I get out of it is the way it makes the house smell and of course eating it (with good wine!). If you want to have some fun make pizza dough. Its a very different kind of dough. Kids love making their own pizzas and I've never had a pizza taste so good. A truly religious experience, if your inclined toward such experiences that is :-)

Hi, Wiccan!

Well, I had to look up athame. Pretty interesting, but you Pagans are always interesting to me. I admire your reverence to it. Hmmmm... keep away goblins and other beasties? As the old Scottish Litany said,
From ghosties and ghoulies
Long leggitie beasties
And things that go bump in the night
Good Lord preserve us!

As to communion, better known as the Holy Eucharist, in the Episcopal church. It is not just the wafer, but also the wine, that is blessed with the presence of Christ - the key point is that He is with us at this time. To me it can be very moving, even when simply done. It is central to our faith, and there have been many times when I picked up a piece of bread or held a glass of wine, that I have repeated the appropriate words of the service before partaking. Indeed, even baking bread - I actually do that! - now has a religious meaning.

Arminius

CCNL-

You can get an athame at Amazon.com, but if you don't know what it's used for or how to use it, it will just be a piece of metal. It certainly won't be of any help to keep the goblins or other beasties away. (Sage is much better.)

I remember Arminius posting something about the Communion wafer, and learning that Protestants believe the wafer is imbued with "the special presence of Christ". I can respect and honor that type of magick, and the holiness it represents to Christians.

I don't think Ms. Quinn meant to be disrespectful, but she was, and she should have asked someone to make sure whether it was proper or not.

No matter how you cut it or look at it or analyze it, the Catholic/Lutheran/Episcopalian Eucharist/Communion is still a low calorie wafer with or without a sip of inexpensive wine/grape juice.

Symbolic? Yes indeed!!! Free to all who want to participate no matter the belief or lack thereof? Yes indeed!!!

As Professor JD Crossan says, Jesus practiced and preached an "open commensality".

Too bad many orthodox Christian groups lost sight of this!!!!

Hmmm, from answers.com Occultism & Parapsychology Encyclopedia

": Athame
The athame, a knife, is one of the primary tools employed by modern Wiccans (or Witches) in their rituals. It has a black handle and double-edged blade. The blade is never used for cutting and no attempt is made to keep it sharp, though often great care is taken to make it artistic. The athame is normally used to cast the circle at the beginning of rituals, thus establishing the magical space within which rituals are performed. It is also used for summoning and banishing the spirit entities who are called to be present as guardians of the ceremony. At the climax of the ritual at which wine is shared, the athame is often plunged into the chalice of wine (symbolic of the sex act).

Although occasional pieces of art show figures identified as Pagans or Witches holding a knife, knives were conspicuous by their absence in European Witchcraft texts. They appear to be one of the several elements introduced by Gerald B. Gardner (1884-1964), who was largely responsible for creating modern Neo-Pagan Witchcraft. Gardner had spent most of his life as a British civil servant in Asia. While in Malaysia, he became familiar with the local ritual weapon known as the kris. This wavy dagger was a well-known object, but almost nothing had been written about its use and significance. He learned of the kris majapahit, the magical instrument that was reputed to work wonders. It was believed to be possessed of a hantu, a spirit. Owning such a weapon was said to bring good fortune, providing protection for those fortunate enough to have one. Gardner's work on the kris is still the standard reference source.

By the time Gardner returned to England in the 1930s, he had hopes of creating a new magical religion built around the worship of a female deity. He drew from a multitude of sources, but added the ritual knife from his knowledge of the kris. The athame is one of the most distinctive contributions of Gardner to modern magical practice.

Sources:

Bracelin, Jack L. Gerald Gardner: Witch. London: Octagon Press, 1960.

Valiente, Doreen. The ABC of Witchcraft Past and Present. New York: St. Martin's Press, 1973.

Conclusion: No doubt someone is using this cult knife to skin rabbits.

Hmmm, I believe I will order one on e-Bay to keep the gobblins away.

Amazon has them too: http://www.amazon.com/Tree-of-Life-Athame-Dagger/dp/B000MS28HI/ref=pd_bbs_sr_3?ie=UTF8&s=home-garden&qid=1215638371&sr=8-3

epidopteryx:
Anon:
Non-believers do not respect Christians and it show by Sally Quinn's actions; what an intrusion!
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"You paint with a broad brush. I'm not Christian, but I think her action was highly disrespectful"

I meant what I said in the literal context.

epidopteryx:
Anon:
Non-believers do not respect Christians and it show by Sally Quinn's actions; what an intrusion!
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"You paint with a broad brush. I'm not Christian, but I think her action was highly disrespectful"

I meant what I said in the literal context.

The 'Lords Supper' is nothing but an imitation of the Passover, of which Jesus Christ taught his disciples to keep and how to keep until he returns. To be remembered one night of the year, not to be marketed to believers every other Sunday (which in of itself is another error..replacing the Sabbath with Sunday observance)

Jesus Christ is the same yesterday, today and forever, as the book of Hebrews 13 points out. He did not intend for all of the things he taught to be whitewashed and repackaged. That was done by the Nicene council, and they have done a very handy job to this day with regard to religious confusion.

Anon:
Non-believers do not respect Christians and it show by Sally Quinn's actions; what an intrusion!

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You paint with a broad brush. I'm not Christian, but I think her action was highly disrespectful.

CCNL:
Specific to the topic: The orthodox Catholic Eucharist is a nice symbol of the life of one simple preacher man. Physically it is nothing more than a low calorie wafer. Get over the hype of religious symbols and the world will be a happier and safer place!!!!
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And physically, my athame is just a knife. But it would be just as disrespectful of me to take communion in a Catholic church as it would be for a priest to use my athame to pare his toenails.

Comments about the Last Supper from some experts:

"Luedemann [Jesus, 94-97] concludes that the assymetrical forms cited in 1 Cor 11 are older than the parallel forms of the sayings over the bread and cup in Mark. He also suggests that the eschatological prospect entertained by Jesus is a later addition, and notes that it has nothing to do with the gift of bread and wine. On the other hand, Luedemann notes that the Pauline text reflects a later development than Mark with its twofold command for repetition of the supper ritual in memory of Jesus. In the end, Luedemann decides that the differences between Mark and Paul are small enough for him to use the two accounts in determining both the content of the final meal and the ways in which the supper was understood by early Christians.

At the same time, Luedemann concludes that the portrayal of Jesus celebrating such a ritual on the night before his death is not historical. He is clear that there is "no generic relationship" between any actual final meal and the Lord's Supper understood in cultic terms. He also denies the Passover character of the supper as a Markan creation. Like Meier (below), Luedemann does accept the saying (Mark 14:25) about drinking wine in the kingdom of God as authentic. He concludes: (this saying) "hardly came into being in the early community, for in it Jesus does not exercise any special function for believers at the festal meal in heaven which is imminent. Only Jesus' expectation of a the future kingdom of God stands at the centre, not Jesus as saviour, judge or intercessor."

"In Crossan's view, this is the third example of a plurally attested complex from the first stratum which, although summarizing "principles or practices, themes or emphases, of the historical Jesus, stem not from him but from the liturgical creativity of the early communities" [Historical Jesus, 360]. (The other examples were 013 Two As One and 120 The Lords Prayer.)" Professor Crossan is an On Faith Panelist.

Jesus Seminar - all the following passages were judged to be probably not or definitely not said by the historical Jesus.

Sayings of Jesus

1 Cor 11:23-25

Mark 14:25

Mark 14:22-25

Matt 26:29

Matt 26:26-29

Matt 26:28c

Luke 22:16,18

Luke 22:15-20

Did 9:4

Did 9:1-4

John 6:51-58

1 Cor 11:23-26

Mark 14:22-26

Matt 26:26-30

Luke 22:14-20

John 6:26-70

"Fredriksen [Jesus of Nazareth, 117-119] accepts the Passover character of the event and places the actions of Jesus in the context of messianic meals in his own ministry and at Qumran. When discussing the final days in Jerusalem (page 252), she assumes the basic historicity of the last supper narrative as a self-conscious final meal in which Jesus spoke of his impending death saying the words over the bread and cup." Professor Fredriksen is an On Faith panelist.

"When discussing the saying on Drinking Wine in the Kingdom of God (Mark 14:25, Professor John Meier [Marginal Jew II,302] notes that "the historicity of a final farewell meal held by Jesus with his disciples is generally accepted by scholars across the spectrum, since its existence is supported by both the criterion of multiple attestation and the criterion of coherence."

Cal, "It is the Lord's supper, not ours and it is He who issues the invitation to those who believe in Him and His sacrifice. It is not an occasion to be "crashed" by the uninvited."

Thank you for you candor and great respect of the Christian belief.

Non-believers do not respect Christians and it show by Sally Quinn's actions; what an intrusion!

In its context, Paul's admonition against partaking in an unworthy manner does not refer to participating without searching oneself for hidden sins, however worthwhile that practice is for developing personal holiness and reverence toward God. The body that needed to be discerned was other believers and the unworthy manner Paul was addressing was the practice of some Corinthian Christians of celebrating with a large feast while ignoring others who could not afford the basics.

The practice of communion involves the vertical relatinship with God and the communal celebration with other believers. Those who ignored the communal aspect were incurring judgment for the selfishness and competitiveness that plagued the Corinthian church.

Nevertheless, the practice of Communion is a celebratory and anticipatory rite for Christians, who are by faith part of the Body of Christ.

Specific to the topic: The orthodox Catholic Eucharist is a nice symbol of the life of one simple preacher man. Physically it is nothing more than a low calorie wafer. Get over the hype of religious symbols and the world will be a happier and safer place!!!!

Good Morning Cal,

Your post states exactly what's required to take communion. I believe that sometimes communion is taken without knowing the importance and we bring ourselves into account for receiving something so holy and not understanding the reverence of having this glorious opportunity as if we're not in right standing w/Christ, we should let the bread and the wine/grape juice pass. I can attest that there's been times when I was dealing with some things in my life, i.e., unforgiveness or anger and I didn't take communion until I was able to surrender my will to His and lay it at the foot of the cross. It's more important to examine ourselves daily and be able to come to the Lord's table in rememberance, thanksgiving and with reverance for what He did for us.