At World's End, Restoration and Judgment

"Born-again" after his Watergate prison term, Colson signed a "land letter" in October 2002 to encourage Bush to invade Iraq. So thank him for his faith and follow his arguments, "doing the things God has called me to do!" That is what you have to expect from "born-again" Christians.

How can there still be a serious discussion about religion! Fully intended lies, spread of fear and superstition, grab for power, hypocrisy, scorn and hate for reason, making splendid use of public stupidity - that is all there is to it - and ever was.

ME

to you, i owe an apology. please disregard my post. it was meant for someone else. i went back and read your posts and it is not with you that i have a disagreement.

andrea, i see now. sorry for the confusion. must need new glasses. all kidding aside, i did reread, and you're correct.

Angelina,

Go back and reread. My reply was addressed to the person posting as "ME," then go back and read "ME"'s post where he/she states
"for a forum that discuss' religion, there sure are a lot of atheists around here. Is it because you're curious, or what? I'm up for sharing thoughts and ideas on the subject, but this is not getting anyone anywhere so far. I thought we were to discuss end-time events from a faith based perspective...am I wrong? Instead there's people with no faith slamming the people who do"

My post just happened to come after yours

to "ME":

1. when you have a moment, read again what i wrote; i did not say or even imply that "everyone on here who isn't a Christian is an athiest". how and why did you reach that conclusion? was it to be confrontational or just to stir the pot for more discussion, or you simply didn't really read what i wrote?

2. you said "Religion does not equal Christianity. Why would you assume that a forum for discussing religion would include only Christianity?" again, i fail to see how or why you reach these unfounded conclusions; they have no basis. i did not say anything that would even suggest that i assume this forum would include only christianity. i simply told my story. as far as religion being equal to christianity, that is not a quote of mine, either.

3. your last statement is hostile. as a matter of fact, your entire reply was mean spirited. it is sad that you tell me to broaden my horizons when it is obvious that you are narrow minded and intolerant.

"Even so, you too, when you see these things happening, recognize that He is near, right at the door.

"Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place.

"Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away.

"But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.

"Take heed, keep on the alert; for you do not know when the appointed time will come."

Matthew 13:30-34
(Jesus speaking of the end times)

It is always best to see what our Savior has to say. In this passage, he is addressing his disciples on the signs of the beginning of the end of this age. Earlier in the passage he talks about the destruction of the temple in Jerusalem and the persecution that his followers would face, all things that did take place within the first generation of Christianity. The other events regarding the age of GRACE we currently live in were all set in motion while Jesus was here on this earth.

He will come again. His words will stand forever. And he will be the dividing point of human history. Believe on Him and you shall be saved. Deny Him, and it will be your choice to live in darkness without God.

God is a just God. He provides access to salvation for all through faith. Don't let your lack of understanding of His plan keep you from seeing the truth and the life. You are not blind, therefore you are without excuse.

"Jesus said to them, " If you were blind, you would have no sin; but since you say, ' We see,' your sin remains."

John 9:41

"ME,"

1. Who says everyone on here who isn't a Christian is an athiest? Broaden your horizons.

2. Religion does not equal Christianity. Why would you assume that a forum for discussing religion would include only Christianity? Again, broaden your horizons.

3. "Your either for me or against me." Only a Sith deals in absolutes.

hi everyone, i've been reading for over an hour and for what it's worth, i just wanted to tell you that everyone's opinions are worthy of attention and response. i've truthfully never read such a long and interesting discussion thread before, and i stuck with this one because it is of personal significance. i have many friends of different faiths,including buddhist, and agnostic, and even one who is an atheist. i've learned a long time ago to listen to what my friends believe and hold dear to their hearts, and hopefuly they would reciprocate and listen to why i believe in the triune God, which is the Father, the Son (Jesus Christ), and the Holy Spirit. now please, please, out of courtesy and respect, don't leave just yet. i didn't scroll down to the end just to leave a comment. i sincerely read each of yours, and i am a disciplined listener. i am not going to quote scripture or get all theological here, because i am not an educated theologian nor am i a student of scripture. all i want to express is what happened to me about 15 years ago that was so compelling, and so dramatic, it actually changed my entire life. so please, i am sincere about this, if you have just a few more minutes, i'd like you to read on through to the end.

i was an alcoholic and addict for many years, and i was also a prostitute. one night i got so sick and disgusted with myself and the life i was living, i took johnny walker for a ride in my car, and a bunch of valiums, and just kept on riding. in those days, the radio had pushbuttons, and i was rather high, and i became agitated because there wasn't anything on the radio that i liked, nothing made me feel better about myself, no music or talk show, nothing. so i took another couple of valiums, and another swig of johnny, and changed from FM to AM, and began punching all the buttons. well, they all got stuck, except for one, and that one happened to be on a station i had never heard before. i didn't particularly know what was coming through the speakers, some gravel sounding man with a southern accent, but he was very patient and calm, kind of soothing, and it sounded like he was talking to just me. he told a story about a prostitute that was going to be stoned to death, and Christ had intervened, and essentially told the men that they weren't perfect either, if any of them had never sinned before, let them cast the first stone. well, they dropped their rocks, and walked away. then Christ turned to the prostitute, and he told her, "Sin no more."

i was so moved by that story, i pulled over the side of the road. i had to. i couldn't see. i was crying so hard, i had slumped over the wheel i was so drunk and high, but i still heard the preacher say that i could look the story up in the book of john and read it for myself. i remembered when the police woke me up and took me to the station, i asked for a bible, and i begged them to get one for me. they did, and it was the first time in 40 years i had opened one. there it was, that same story i had heard, right there in the gospel of john in the new testament. from that day on, i've been sober. and i've kicked my addiction to benzos. it took me a few months to change the way i dressed, and my behavior, and another few months to find a church that i liked, but i did eventually end up at a small bible believing church that had a lot of good, well meaning, big hearted people who stood by me and made sure i was okay...

i can honestly tell you that radio preacher probably saved my life that night. who knows. i'm just telling you that i could have killed someone, or myself, or continued that horrible life and died a young age of an overdose or HIV.

well, i just turned 59, and i have not had an easy life since that time. i've had cancer, and financial problems, serious depression, and a lot of other physical illness. but i don't think i would be able to handle my life if it weren't for my relationship with Christ. i am no longer involved in church, i just pray and walk with the Lord, and talk to Him.

someone asked me a couple of questions once, and i'll ask them to you:

if you were to die tonight, where would you wake up? if God were to say to you, why should i let you into my Heaven, what would you say?

p.s., as a response to those of you who think christians don't care about social issues or the environment, please don't put all of us in one box. i'm a member of PETA and the Sierra Club, and i'm a vegetarian. i don't eat soy/tofu because i had cancer, and soy/tofu is not healthy for cancer survivors. i think gore is a brilliant man with regard to his viewpoint on global warming, i regret having voted for bush this time around, and i am rethinking my views on modern american militarianism. after all, even george washington and james madison cautioned us about imperialism...

angelina

Brambleton: "Or RAFAEL who claims Christians are "hopelessly naive in an era of Christian-inflamed homophobia." I guess RAFAEL missed the fact that same sex marriage was voted DOWN by voters in AZ, CO, ID, SC, SD, TN, VA and WI. How many of those states are NOT in the Bible belt? Once again, it appears the facts get in the way of another left-wing, socialist agenda to distort the truth. Who's naive now RAFAEL?"

Brambleton, you don't seem to read very carefully. My statement referred to ME as hopelessly naive, for his (?) claiming that just because he doesn't "judge you, or say bitter, nasty things about non-believers" that other Christians follow his practice.

In any case, your evidence that same sex marriage has been rejected on other than Christian-based religious beliefs is that all those states are not in the bible belt? Those are "the facts" that seal your argument?? Your reasoning skills seem to match your reading skills. If you do a little research into the political movements fueling those measures, a Christian group will be behind every one of them, and the majority of yes voters will be Christian.

Mr Colson confuses the physical end of the world, as suggested by physical realities, with a popular Christian doctrine of judgement day. These are two completely different things. Perhaps this sort of fuzzy thinking is a clue as to how religious claims are maintained.

Here is some MANNA FROM a HORSES MOUTH. Or should I say ASS-iol. Ya Ya.

Which prominent Religious figure or "Preacher Man" said, "...Assassinate Chavez..." [Similar]?

Go South Young Man Go South.

Gringo's, We need to ABSORB MEXICO. Think about it: Guatemala our new border(s), and Add 5 or 6 more states to our Flag, and NO PESO and....
Eeeeeeeeee Haaaaaaaaaa, Moochoe FriJolas e AMERICANO's.

NOTE: Please quiz, those illegals and Legal Mexican. with this question.

SEE Seniors e Senoritas. Cooooooo Chiiii Pooooo CHeeeee moma moma mea, Uno Does Tress Quarto Sinko sae. Imagine the possibility's.

SEEE WHAT I SEE GRINGO's? :-)'

ME,

Europe today celebrates its 50th anniversary with pride and hope. And I am one them, with pride and hope. And I don't try to reinvent Babylon, and the highest tower is not in Europe either. Of course, we want to speak with one voice. We don't want criminals like Rumsfeld to try to divide "Old Europe" from "New Europe", and the idiotic "coalition of the willing" from those who oppose Bush's oil adventures any more. After a turbulent and hateful history, we are so happy that all the enmity is a matter of the past. After World War II nobody had thought that the "hereditary enemies" Germany and France can become close friends and allies.

A former admirer of the US (having partly been brought up there), there is only contempt and hate left against the fascist administration you voted for. The German big shots were hanged for invading foreign countries....insert the rest of the sentence!

What prophesy do I fulfill, btw? Reading Daniel and Samuel and some other parts of "Scripture" I can only see genocide based on religious fundamentalism, and "god" is even proud of it! No, no, ME, you are traveling the wrong road. I am not with you and your ilk.

In the bible it says there is nothing new under the sun. "You're either for me, or against me." And there's inlies the two camps. We can't persuade you with words or men's wisdom.

As you looks at what's going on in the world, you-(most of which are the people who are against him camp)spew your hatred towards the current administration for putting us in this place. (I noticed that anomoly-as I'm sure you'll admit also.) Also notice at the same time that the perpetual drum beat is an ever increasing call for Israel to submit to the 'global community' to give away it's land for 'peace.' So the two groups that are being rallied against are the Jews and christians. All coincidence?

As the US is becoming less of a voice in the global community you will see fulfillment of prophecy. Read Daniel and you will see a list of kingdoms that were to be in power and the last to make the world stage is the roman empire. As the EU is trying hard to reinvent Babylon by building a huge tower and speaking with one voice you might want to take notice. Fulfillment of prophecy? Or coincidence.

ME...

As one of those atheists, let me give you the reality based view on "end times". There will be none. No settling of scores, wrongs righted, accounts balanced...nada.

What will happen in some 5 billion years or so is that the the sun will expand into a red giant and finally include the orbits of at least the 3 inner planets in it's atmosphere. This is not divine retribution or any other such dreck - it's stellar evolution.

I feel it is important to realize that christianity is just another in the long parade of religions man has developed. Christianity or any other modern religion looks back at previous belief systems and smiles at how unfortunate those folks were to not know the TRUTH. Of course, earlier believers may well have felt the same way.

So why post here?? In the forlorn hope that some folks - even one - will stop and think about what they believe. Perhaps they will find the courage to see that this is IT. There are no mulligans. You had best live well and be decent to your fellows. Not because of fear of the latest mythological being, but because it is what is right. And yes, I also accept that humans do have innate social behaviors that determine what is right without any divine intervention or storybook to spell out the rules.

Oh Chuck - Your post will be an inspiration to atheists everywhere. Like Bodybuilder says - you're so nice, compared to those mean spirited types who mock and put people down all the time. Thanks to your fine example, not to mention your wisdom and your original way of spreading the Gospel, now they'll believe! Thank you Chuck and thank you Lord!

Non-believers will also be influenced by Dan the poffessor/proffesor from New York. He's a wonderful cheerleader for you. Dan and Bodybuilder are so right! Their message and spelling is so much like yours that you all sound like the same person! Like the Blessed Trinity, except that one was real and this one would be a big fake.

Are you guys faking? Jesus doesn't like that.

WOW! are you a preacher? Chuck You have put up a good fight hmmm Love ya man. Dan school proffesor

Very intersting to read Chuck after reading all the comments yours stands for some reason, Humm. You did not down anyones relegion, did not talk down on anyone, Hmm. You know I have heard they say the Bible is an updated newspaper don"t watch the news or be alarmed its all in the Bible I used to be an athiest until now. God may well have convicted my soul. keep up the good work! Chuck. Big bear

I have read some very interesting things on this site One thing I keep seeing is if you dont know God, or if you dont except God or God this or God that. Listen there are many gods but there is only one true Lord you know the one that created the heavens and the earth biblicaly speaking you see in order to know God the father you haft to know his son Jesus. And in order to know his son Jesus you acknowledge him except him into your heart come into a personal relationship with him. Now I may be wrong but in the old Testament it was a nightmare! Thats why God had to find away to regain which was lost so he sent his son Jesus to earth, human flesh just like you and me to feel, to hurt, in more ways than one I might add. You see he was beaten, whipped on, hit on, spat on, carried his on cross to a hill called Calvery. There spikes were driven through his hands and feet, a crown of thorns peircing through his head for you and me. He took our sin on that cross for you and me. He said I will never leave you nor forsake you. He shed his on blood for you and me. He looked down from that bloody cross and saw you!. He saw your shortcomings your failers, your hurts, your angers, and your joys and yes those tears that know one would ever see and before you was even conceived he saw it all. I close with this, I say this out of love from my heart he will forgive any and every sin a person has done, invite him into your heart today old things washed away new things are put on. Its simple you have a choice, receive him and believe on him or reject and neglect him the choice is yours but remember when your number is called and to walk through the gates of pearls Jesus said no man cometh to the Father but by me. PEACE Im out

ME - this is a public forum sponsored by two secular publications - the Washington post and Newsweek.

It's for anyone who wants to read about and discuss these subjects. Diverse points of view are expressed.

I'm very curious to see how people think about religion. I'm also very concerned that religion is enchroaching too much in Government and am very grateful to the forum sponsors for giving people this opportunity to discuss this important topic.

Chip makes a Fundamental Point

Why is it that so many true believers liek Colson seem to take such pleasure in God's eventual torture of the rest of us sinners.

makes one subscribe even more strongly to the theory that those like Colson, who was a sadist in the Nixon administration before he paid his debt to society and was born again,

and is still a Sadist,
but is now a Sadist for Jesus,

is projecting some serious psychological problems of his own out on Jesus and the Great Avenger,

and he is hardly the first person in history to display this psychological disorder.

The End Times? This discussion keeps getting more interesting by the week. During Israel's war against Hezbollah -- if my memory serves me correctly -- Edwin Sherman of the Isaac Newton Bible Code Research Society released an online essay arguing that Bible codes are "a general prediction that we are living in the End Times." Even though there are too many individual codes that only tell a specific point of view rather than predict the future, the phenomenon itself is real. I would compare Bible codes to pieces of the Great Biblical Puzzle; I find them a most compelling subject for possible future discourse among religious experts from America or various countries on this forum as well as the two publications actually sponsoring it:

http://www.biblecodedigest.com/page.php/456

To first make his case, Sherman cites Daniel 12:4, the "speedy travel and exponential increase of knowledge" verse: "Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase." This concept of running around appears at least thrice more, in 2 Chronicles 16:9, Zechariah 4:10, and Amos 8:12. Upon further examination of the greater context of Daniel 12 in connection with Ezekiel 38 and 39, Zechariah 14:12, Isaiah 66:8, Matthew 24, and, of course, Revelation, a picture of the End Times as a time of great tribulation becomes clear. In any case, in Matthew 28:19, the Lord Jesus Christ left us believers with one decisive imperative: "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations." Professing to be born again Christians, I would not doubt that Chuck Colson, Franklin Graham, Peter Akinola, and the like would be wise to stay true to themselves -- and, above all others, to Christ Jesus Himself.:

http://www.biblecodedigest.com/

for a forum that discuss' religion, there sure are a lot of atheists around here. Is it because you're curious, or what? I'm up for sharing thoughts and ideas on the subject, but this is not getting anyone anywhere so far. I thought we were to discuss end-time events from a faith based perspective...am I wrong? Instead there's people with no faith slamming the people who do.

E Favorite wrote "Yeah, Chip, don't you get it? Like ME says, you got a choice - if you just take the simple and logical choice to believe in God, then he won't do all those terrible things to you.

But if you DON'T choose to believe in God or don't get the chance to even hear about God (I mean the Christian God, of course, the others don't count), then He has no choice (even though he's God) to brutally slay you and send you to burn in Hell for eternity."

You'd think an all powerful, all knowing, all singing, all dancing god, creator of all things, would have better things to do than run a protection racket (like maybe cure cancer, or eliminate famine, or something).

Brambleton, when will you learn that peppering your retorts to everyone with whom you disagree with accusations of membership in some "socialist" agenda is the verbal equivalent of holding hands with someone wearing an "I'm With Stupid" t-shirt.

Mr. Colson did not present a non-threatening answer to the question. What exactly do you think is non-threatening about "judgment will be rendered, accounts will be set straight, the scales balanced, wrongs righted, and we will live in the love of God for eternity." Last time I checked, the Christian god intends to right those wrongs and settle those scales through torture and torment on a scale so massive it makes the most genocidal maniacs in the history of man seem like rather saintly chaps by comparison. Exactly who is the "we" in "We will live in the love of God for eternity"? It doesn't seem to include most of the people who have ever lived, or half of the people alive in the world today.

Not only do Christians (and others) embrace this view, like Mr. Colson, they long for it ("the great eschatological hope is that Christ will return and judgment will be rendered") and worship the torturer! Excuse me if I simply can't find it within me to treat such an abhorrent belief with love and understanding, nor take anyone seriously who would use such bloodthirsty prophesy in the same sentence as words like justice, or love. That anyone could believe such acts would be committed out of love is a stain on our intelligence. The perpetuating of such barbaric beliefs at this late date in our history is a stain on our humanity.

God will take all the children and form them into a line. When they reach the checkpoint, Jesus will check the list of who's been naughty or nice. Most will be sent through the door on the left where they'll be tortured for the rest of time, but some lucky kids will be sent through the door on the right where they'll receive teddy bears and candy forever and ever! Praise God! That's "the great eschatological hope." If you're an adult and not only believe such sick nonsense but embrace it, approve of it, and long for it, do you really think you deserve respect for it?

"I miss that lovely Buddhist couple that used to live next door to us, honey. They were such friendly and caring people. Best neighbors we ever had. Pity that God's torturing them for the rest of time. Oh well. More brie?"

Pieces,

Sadly, a significant number of posters on the "On Faith" threads have no interest whatsoever in discussing the panelist viewpoint. They have no contribution to these forums other than to post absurd and inflammatory remarks. But is it really shocking when you consider the ratings of TV shows like "Are you dumber than a 5th grader"?

Take CYNDISMITH for example. I'm going to assume he/she is still in grade school because an adult couldn't possibly be so naive as to think that "aiding and abetting corrupt politicians" is strictly a "religious" problem. I need only go back to President Clinton and his pardon of 120+ criminals - one of which being Mark Rich (really Marc David Reich) who was indicted by the US Attorney for tax evasion, fraud, and "trading with the enemy" (namely Iran during the hostage crisis). I'm quite positive the right-wing, Christian fundamentalists were not behind these pardons.

Or RAFAEL who claims Christians are "hopelessly naive in an era of Christian-inflamed homophobia." I guess RAFAEL missed the fact that same sex marriage was voted DOWN by voters in AZ, CO, ID, SC, SD, TN, VA and WI. How many of those states are NOT in the Bible belt? Once again, it appears the facts get in the way of another left-wing, socialist agenda to distort the truth. Who's naive now RAFAEL?

Bottom line? Mr. Colson presented a simple, non-threatening answer to the question presented. He didn't diminish anyone else and he certainly didn't attack anyone's own theology. The response? More posts for Exhibit One of the "Dumbing down of America".

Is this crook still croaking his baloney?

Colson is an example of someone who has repented, died and been born again. Colson's particular eschatological hope is up for discussion yet the focus seems to be on his past. My eschatological hope is that when the end of the world comes we will forgive, forget and move forward with love, forgiveness, and tolerance treating our neighbors as we would like to be treated; if someone has repented that their past will be forgotten and we will see the new man.

Mr. Colson,

Perhaps the world will not be destroyed by the Second Coming for a long long time -- conceivably not until the sun burns out billion of years from now.

Therefore: Do you think it wise of Evangelicals to flagrantly ignore pollution, global warming, huge deficits, and other corrupt human activities that serve to make the world a worse place for future generations?

Frankly -- my atheist friends make a lot of sense when they say it is the Evangelicals who are destroying the world! How? By aiding and abetting the most corrupt and destructive politicans by voting them in office. Am I right?

I find your politics APPALLING. I think you would win more converts by sticking with morality issues that focus on improving the individual and local communitities-- instead of aligning yourselves with corrupt politicians who use people like you to get rich and pollute the earth.

Piscesfish2461:

You sound like a kind person, but are you really so blind to the judgment and harsh treatment of others inherent in the modern day institutionalized practice of Christianity? "I am a Christian, and I don't judge you, or say bitter, nasty things about non-believers, so why all of the Christian bashing?" --this sounds so self-absorbed and hopelessly naive in an era of Christian-inflamed homophobia, anti-intellectual control of school curricula, and legislated control of personal medical issues.

Non-believers are bitter because Christians exert this control with incredible arrogance in the certainty that the fairy tale by which they live their lives justifies each of their political actions. To understand this perspective you'll need to take on a view of the world beyond your own experience.

Didn't Jesus Christ say the end time would come within a generation?

Oops. Guess he goofed. Maybe he wasn't really God, but just a nice guy with a good message.

Too bad people are still making money off him.

Garyd...

There are measurements of rotational velocities in galaxies that are consistent with dark matter. Like a black hole, it only detectable by it's effects. These measurements have been repeated and found to be real effects. The effects of "god" are much less observable. Good stuff "that's god". Bad stuff "that's man".

Since what's good for one group may well be bad for another, it seems a bit confusing. consider the Civil War. Both sides christian, both sides praying to the same god. Some wins and losses by both sides. What's up with that? It would seem that god's a bit indecisive.

Pisces...

Perhaps one reason that atheists are angry is the role religion is given in our country. For the last 6 years, the religous right has had the all the levers of power at the highest levels. Who cries about being discriminated against?? Christians. Who appears eager to compel everyone to act as they do? Christians. Which group is more than happy to conflate their beliefs with secular law? Christians.

Another reason might be the fact that any statement or belief, so long as it is christian is given great respect. It does not matter that it flies in the face of reality, if it's got Jesus in it somewhere, it's good to go. Everything else is either mistaken belief or silly superstition. Christians KNOW they have a corner on the market in truth. Just like every religion, and I do mean every, in the long history of man.

As an atheist, I do not hate Christians. In fact, I have some very close Christian friends. I care not what gives you comfort in the long dark reaches of the night. If it works for you, wonderful. Excuse me if I protest when christians want to remake the country and even reality to conform to what, in the final analysis, is yet another in a long line of belief systems.

At the current stage believing in dark matter and dark energy is little diffrfent than believing in God as none of them are currently detectable by means of any scientific instruments currently in our possession.

Wow...I don't believe what I am reading. The man wrote a very sweet article. Some of the comments about him are just so disrespectful, and bitter. I just don't get why Athiests are so angry. I am a Christian, and I don't judge you, or say bitter, nasty things about non believers, so why all of the Christian bashing? It's totally un-necessary. Rabbi Marc Gelman who writes for Newsweek is one of my all time favorite people, and authors. He is of a different faith than me, but it doesn't matter one bit. His words are so inspiring, and I look forward to reading his articles. We were not put on this earth to judge and be harsh towards each other, and you don't have to be a person of faith to figure that one out. I would bet Marc Gelman would agree with me on this one. I wish and I will continue to pray, and hope that we can all just respect and care about our fellow human beings. Hatred is an un-necessary emotion to me.

ME,

The not-so-subtle point you seem to be missing is that all the people who have never heard of Jesus--just as a consequence of where and when they were born--would have no choice but to burn in hell for all eternity. Do you think a just God would bring so many people into this world only to doom them to eternal damnation?

The combination of irrationality and arrogance in fundamentalist Christianity is mind-boggling.

Come on ME, how much credence do you give a God who could only save humanity by having his own son murdered?

He's God, right? He could have just said "I forgive you." But no, he had to send his son, born of a virgin, no less, to die on a cross "for us." And we're supposed to be grateful.

"Oh Thank you God, for killing your son for us. What a holy thing to do. You must really think we're special."

Meanwhile, Jesus rose on the 3rd day, then ascended into Heaven to live forever, so I guess it wasn't such a big deal, after all.

Think of all the people who have suffered a lifetime of excruciating pain and get no credit at all. It makes Jesus’ sacrifice seem like not so much and makes it seem like God is playing favorites.

Ann O.,

The Buddha WAS amazing in the sophistication of his thinking and psychology. And in such a "simple" time, too. Not that things were ever really simple, and I don't mean to insult the Buddha's contemporaries.

It's interesting that the Dalai Lama has rounded up all those legions of neuroscientists and related researchers to study, with modern scientific sophistication, the sometimes extraordinary phenomena associated with meditation, which dates back to the time of the Buddha and before, and which has been explored in its farthest reaches by Buddhist meditators.

OH JESUS PLEEZE CHUCKIBOI THERE IS AN OPENING FOR YOU AT THE CIRCUS!! RELIGION IS ALL HUKUS POKUS RUN BY MONEYGRABBING HOMOPHOBIC PRIEST/MULAHS/MINISTERS/CHUCKIBOI!!!

Hi, Norrie,

I agree that the Buddha was a great psychologist -- one of the greatest in my view. He noticed, described and analysed so much of the content of human consciousness. This is not the preferred method of empirical science -- indeed, empirical science literally cannot touch what he viewed. But whether you want to call his project introspection or phenomenology, he was a most extraordinary observe

Not that he said the last word on all of these things, but he certainly was the first word on many of them.

Ann O.

Chip and Gay Priest have it spot on. Soooo many gods, so little consensus. A god who acts like an ill tempered teen. Bronze age philosophy. Mental gymnastics to make beliefs fit reality (or completely denying reality)

I am constantly amazed at the ability of true believers to reconcile all the contradictions. From prayer (deny any and all studies refuting the effectiveness) to the age of the earth and evolution (all those science folks have it all wrong) to a loving god quite willing to fry those who don't pay tribute for all eternity is a tribute to human inventiveness.

Poor ole Chuck Colson, Watergate has-been and
divine chaplain to all the imprisoned without Jesus...and with Jesus. Say, Chuck, and "Me," and all you other Bible-quoters and fundies, give us a break.

Nobody with any ability at critical thinking and intellectual honesty can believe this silliness anymore. First of all, the gospels are mostly fictions; Paul never knew Jesus and was probably just a Gnostic with writer's cramp; the Book of Revelation is mythic literature (apocalyptic as well) and all this stuff about "atoning sacrifice" of Jesus, "holiness," and so forth is nothing but pious jargon.

Get a life, give up the addiction of religion and enjoy yourselves. If people can give up smoking and drinking alcohol and taking drugs, then they can easily give up religion in all shapes and sizes. Try it.

And, P.S. anytime you see someone writing Bible quotes, that should tip you off to who they are...and what they believe...and what they think should happen to the good ole USA i.e., a theocratic America. Check out Chris Hedges' book on American Fascists...and you'll understand what I'm saying/writing.

Come on E Favorite,
He gave Jesus as a atoning sacrifice for us. How he chose to reveal himself to us through his son demonstrates his love for us. And also his holiness. Remember John 3:16!

Yeah, Chip, don't you get it? Like ME says, you got a choice - if you just take the simple and logical choice to believe in God, then he won't do all those terrible things to you.

But if you DON'T choose to believe in God or don't get the chance to even hear about God (I mean the Christian God, of course, the others don't count), then He has no choice (even though he's God) to brutally slay you and send you to burn in Hell for eternity.

So please don't accuse "ME" and other devout Christians for having "blood-lust" in their eyes. They are mere mortals who have no control over what God does. They just know, for sure, what He's going to do, because it's all written so clearly in the Bible.

It's God you have to look out for. The God who loves you. He’s the one with the Blood-Lust.

chip wrote:
I'll never understand how people of faith (especially Christians and Muslims) can reconcile the concept of a just and loving god with their end times prophesies.

The way I see it God is not willing to throw himself upon you, He gives you free will. He's laid out what's going to happen (prophesies) so you'll believe in Him. I don't look at it with 'blood lust' in my eyes, I just know that God is true and those things that are written will come to pass, and unfortunately there will be some that won't believe and trust in God. I hope as things come to pass as written in his word you will take note and not scoff at it.

Colson says, *Those who have died in Christ will be resurrected with Him.* Read between the lines.
These Christian extremists believe their *God of Love* will fry His other babies in Hell for eternity.

I'll never understand how people of faith (especially Christians and Muslims) can reconcile the concept of a just and loving god with their end times prophesies. Their just and loving god will torture most of the people who've ever lived in hellfire for eternity for the crimes of being born in the wrong place or not accepting a "divine truth" presented in contradictory riddles, bronze age absurdities, and without empirical evidence to back it up. That's justice? So many believers look forward to the end times with the gleam of blood lust in their eyes as they imagine the "others" getting their just desserts, like children taunting their siblings with "just wait until dad gets home!" What century is this again?

Norrie Hoyt,

Thanks for the information! I don't see that as proselytizing either.

"Many members of religions (other than Buddhism, which is not really a religion, but a psychology and a cosmology) find that taking up Buddhist psychology and practice helps their own religious practice"

That goes too for what I have heard about Kabbalah, (not the trendy celebrity version, but like groups of regular people) that it helps people of other faiths who have no intention of converting. In fact, I heard that from a Catholic who believes that what they learned helps them to be a better Catholic.

Danny B.,

I agree with you - learning anything is always good.

I hope you understand that I wasn't trying to turn you toward Buddhism or anything else. That's not my office in life - I'm not a proselytizer - and it would be presumptuous of me.

And the Dalai Lama says don't try it with people who already have a religion.

You're very right in your understanding of karma, also known as "the law of cause and effect".

Orthodox Buddhists conceive of a "hell realm" (the lowest of six realms) where those with the worst karma end up reincarnated for a time. But all beings (including those in the hell realm) can, and perhaps all will, ultimately attain enlightenment (nirvana), which is the equivalent of being in Heaven.

I don't call myself a Buddhist. Partly because I'm agnostic toward its cosmology (reincarnation, etc., and particularly the six realms) and partly because I don't think I've studied Buddhism enough to be truly versed in all its details.

But I'm not agnostic toward Buddhism's ethical system, which I enthusiastically endorse. It's basically the Golden Rule (compassion and loving kindness) expanded to include animals.

I'm also enthusiastic about Buddhism's very sophisticated psychology of the human mind.

Also, I just don't like identifying with any organization or labeling myself. Maybe it's just vanity but I'm more comfortable with that.

Snow Lion Publishing is a Buddhist publishing house. If you ever want to explore the subject, one of their web sites lets you sign up for a weekly email message from the Dalai Lama, and also a Dharma weekly message. Dharma is the body of Buddhist teachings. **** NB: this is NOT proselytizing!! - just information.

Yes Bill L, I agree..."study all things and keep what is good"...completely!

Danny B., it is good to listen to all views! As the bible says, "study all things and keep what is good". Everything the Pope says isn't Gospel, but when he speaks from the
"chair of Peter" we need to listen carefully!

Not all religions and belief systems can be right or equal. One has to be more right or less wrong. Christianity is the only one with a loving God as our Father who wants to give us all he has for eternity and leaves the decision entirely up to us, but gives us what we need to come to know and love truth.

Norrie Hoyt,

Probably not a formal conversion on the horizion, but I am always interested in learning about other faiths.

I must admit that I know very little about Buddhism, so I thought it was very interesting for you to point out that what I thought "just made sense" has such priciples behind it elsewhere.

I like the idea of karma (what little Earl has taught me about it) because, to me, it seems very similar to living a life dedicated to "loving thy neighbor" in a way. Jesus is not the messenger, burning in hell is not the threat...but it seems to me the fruit of the effort would be very similar.

As a Catholic, of course I "take note" when the Pope speaks, but I would not be quick to refuse to hear what the Dalai Lama has to say either.

Many things can be learned from others, even those with whom you mostly disagree. Why deny yourself the potential to learn something new, learning ANYTHING is always good.

Danny B.,

You'd make a fine Buddhist. At your office you're fully present in the present moment with equanimity.

Maybe you're already something of a Buddhist. Many members of religions (other than Buddhism, which is not really a religion, but a psychology and a cosmology) find that taking up Buddhist psychology and practice helps their own religious practice. No need to accept the Buddhist cosmology.

Any chance of a formal conversion?

Actually, the Dalai Lama says no Buddhist should ever try to persuade anyone to adopt Buddhism. He says that their own religion is doing them great good and that's what's important.

That tolerant attitude (compare it with fundamentalist & proselytizing religions) is one of the things that attracts me to B.

Ok.............so you mean to say that there are people that actually believe the world is only 6,000 years old? where did you go to school man? And what were they feeding you!!

Oh, and I must be a fool...........There is no GOD. Sue me

The client is coming? How about the boss? I have a small mirror on my screen, just so there won't be any surprises :)

Speaking of surprises...

Mr. Colson: Why are you referencing the big bang? Don't you know that you are messing with the tightly closed, ignorant fundamentalist box your worldview is supposed to fit neatly into? Just make sure it doesn't happen again! :)

Now Norrie Hoyt, even I'm not that lacking in a sense of humor! = ) I've seen that shirt and thought it was hysterical.

Really though, I agree with the sentiment even apart from any Christian connotation.

At the office, the periodic warning comes through that "the client" is coming, or "the client" is here. There's all this nervousness in the air. I always think to myself, "If we're always doing what we are supposed to be doing, who really cares if the client is coming".

That's what makes me laugh about the T-shirt.

Andrew, I was quoting scripture!

Joe Campbell,

Mr. Colson didn't say when the big bang happened. I'm sure if you pressed him, he would say it happened on the first day, while god and buddha were playing parcheese, not 14 bya. Also, his idea that the universe is winding down because of entropy may not hold once we get a handle on dark matter and dark energy. Of course, dark matter and energy might belong to the antichrist's realm. I'm so confused.

I don't think Mr Colson read his Bible very carefully.

Big Bang? Shh, if you say that too loud you'll never get to heaven.

The world was created in 7 days Mr Colson, roughly 6000 years ago, one day when god had some free time during a game of parcheesi with buddha.

If there were a just God Mr. Colson your fellow Watergate conspirators wouldn't still be ruining the country...

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/opinion/298235_amy04.html

With this comment Chuck Colson has become a caricature of himself.

Bill L:

You just did the very thing for which you criticized Susan Jacoby on her thread.

Any atheist would easily turn your statement around and say "anyone who believes there is a god is a fool". Does that exchange prove anything? Does it contribute to having peaceful and harmonious coexistence among people of many beliefs? Or is it that you just don't like or respect anyone who believes differently than you do?

Mr. Colson, they are like the grasshopper that wouldn't prepare for winterbecause there was plenty of time, while the ant labored tirelessly. In the end it was too late!

Only a fool says there is no God!

"I don’t spend time on it because I’m too busy doing the things God has called me to do. All I know is that I have to be prepared for what will come in due course. And when the Lord does return, all I want is to be found at my post, doing my duty."

Or, as the tee shirt reads: JESUS IS COMING - LOOK BUSY!

(You can buy one in PTown and probably elsewhere.)

(Apologies, Danny B. - vow broken already.)