A Long Way from Mainstream

The Professional Evangelical Clergy would become unemployed if their flocks converted to

THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER DAY SAINTS.

Good Grief!

Doesn't the title of our Church tell you dooms dayers anything?

We ARE NOT the Mormon Church. This is a nickname.

And all of our clergy are volunteers who work full-time jobs and then give another 10-20 hours of service to their 150 family flocks.

VERY WELL ORGANIZED. All volunteer. All worshipping God the Father and His son, Jesus Christ.

Chuck writes:

"Having said that, however, in the eyes of most serious Christians, Mormonism is a long way from mainstream. It is totally inconsistent with historic Christian orthodox belief in its view of the Bible, for example. Mormons add to the Bible the Book of Mormon. Christians on the other hand, regard the Bible as the sole authority for faith and practice."

And how's that working out for you, Chuck? All sunshine and roses so far?

"There are many other serious theological differences between Mormonism and orthodox confessing Christianity. For instance, they believe there are many gods. As Brigham Young's Journal of Discourses says: 'How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods' (7:333)."

Arcane: Journal of Discourses is not canonical. Even if it were, you overlook that LDS scripture is very clear the God the Father is the creator of our spirits, and Christ the Son is the redeemer of same. It is God to whom we pray in the name of the Son, and no other beings--not saints or Mary or pope or anyone else--are our objects of worship.

"They also believe as Joseph Smith writes, 'Man was also in the beginning with God. Intelligence, or the light of truth, was not created or made, neither indeed can be.' In other words, man’s basic intelligence was not created by God and is as old as God’s."

Source on this one? This sounds like a boiled down version of what is a much more complex doctrine than you allow for here. Yes, we believe that humankind was pre-existent. We also do not believe in creation ex-nihilo. So for us to say that God is the father or creator of our spirits is to say that he organized matter just as matter was used to organize the rest of creation: what was this matter? Don't know, but Intelligence seems like a pretty good handle in the meantime. Maybe we should all try to live up to that.

But let's use an analogy: say intelligence is like ovum and sperm--the basic ingredients of the creation of a physical body. These ingredients exist in the parents as cells long before they become sperm, egg, and body. Before that, they split off from other cells. So they existed, in a preterspecific form, in the parents. Even better, then, call Intelligence "cell." To say that Mormons believe we are as old as God as separate, thinking beings is isogetical. Our potential existence is as old as God, but only because whatever eventually made us us existed in some way in God.

In sum: we were always a twinkle in God's eye. I don't know about you, but that makes me feel even more worshipful and reverential than the idea that I was shazaamed together one afternoon when there was nothing on tv.

The larger point, here: Chuck's a good man, obviously, and I thank him for his prison work. But Evangelical Christianity, and now by extensive association the rest of the Christian world, are fed retarded versions of mormonism from their own in-house curricula that make us sound like scientologists. Seriously, people: go to the sources. I think you'll be very surprised by what you find.

"Most Christians recognize that we live in a pluralistic culture which guarantees religious liberty. We would therefore oppose any ethic to stigmatize any religious group and would defend their rights to fully participate in every aspect of public life, including elections. While we have profound differences, there are no grounds for discrimination."

Beautiful, Chuck. "Mormons are weird, and definitely not Christian, but let's not hold that against them." Ay caramba.

By the acts of which Pope should Christianity and its Bible be judged? Even Luther, Calvin and their contemporaries believed in witch burning. Should their Bible be asked to answer for their bizarre interpretations? Athiests would have us believe so.
A similiar comparison typifies Mormon Criticism. People who write about 'Mormonism' consistently fail to allow the Book of Mormon to speak for itself. Mormonism as we know it is a religion of parts borrowed from other contemporary religions of the day, including Freemasonry, Swedenborgism, Millerism, Campbellism and even Shakerism. These were the sources used by Sidney Rigdon, a radical Baptist minister of the Campbellite Restoration Movement, to influence Joseph Smith, Jr. as he was desperately searching for the means to create a new church. But if objective minds will but take the time to actually read the Book of Mormon they will find a friend to Evangelical Christianity and the Christian Gospel. I am not a member of any 'Mormon' church and find their doctrines to be in diametric conflict with the teachings of the Book of Mormon. But the fault does not lie in what the Book of Mormon teaches which anyone can discover if they will but take time to read the book. In fact the Book of Mormon is Mormonism's staunchest critic. RLM

The problem debating politics with LDS members and Mitt Romney is that it is impossible to separate the presidential candidate from Mitt Romney the LDS Bishop / Stake Leader. Some non-LDS members don’t understand this, but anyone that’s grown up in the Church understands that the LDS faith pervades every aspect of family, work, politics, and even friends. The greatest risk to the LDS Church is that some media commenter actually does their homework and challenges Mitt Romney to some real questions of substance. Luckily most political “pundits ask Romney a tough question and he responds with an answer… usually an incorrect or incomplete answer in order to appease the inquirer, but what will happen when a true pundit calls his bluff. This far the Stephanopoulos interview came the closest with a follow-up segment correcting Romney on his own Mormon doctrine, but I fear it will get worse and worse. The LDS Church may one day be on the verge of becoming the new Scientology and Mitt Romney is our Tom Cruise.

http://www.ExposeRomney.com

http://www.exposeromney.com/pages/AreMormonsChristian.html

Oops, sorry for the double post. The first post didn't show up in my browser and when I reposted the both showed up

The most rational basis for judging a politician is by his policies and political philosophy rather than stated religion. For example many of our Founding Father's were NOT orthodox Christians, yet they governed in a manner more consistent with Biblical Christianity than many politicians today who have a stronger claim to orthodoxy.

Romney, when judged this way, has failed to govern according to principles compatible with either Mormonism or Evangelicalism. Until his recent, convenient, political "conversion" he experienced just before declaring his candidacy for President he espoused views on abortion and gay rights that are repugnant to both Mormons and Evangelicals.

The most rational basis for judging a politician is by his policies and political philosophy rather than stated religion. For example many of our Founding Father's were NOT orthodox Christians, yet they governed in a manner more consistent with Biblical Christianity than many politicians today who have a stronger claim to orthodoxy.

Romney, when judged this way, has failed to govern according to principles compatible with either Mormonism or Evangelicalism. Until his recent, convenient, political "conversion" he experienced just before declaring his candidacy for President he espoused views on abortion and gay rights that are repugnant to both Mormons and Evangelicals.

Lee,

Again...I don't think you're trying to understand. It doesn't matter what "people" have as their conceptions of Heaven. What matters is Jesus' description, since HE knew and experienced what Heaven was like...and His description didn't have anything at all in common with the Mormon "concept" of Heaven...populating planets, etc.
And I didn't say anything about knowing WHERE Heaven is, did I?

No, cults use scripture out of context. Liberal churches use only one or two scriptures.You have no idea where Heaven is, do you? But that is not what my message is about.My message is about not condemming people to Hell because they have a different concept of Heaven. But, wherever Heaven is, no sin will be there.Only those who have had thier sins washed by the Blood of Christ will be allowed to dwell there.

Hey Lee,

The way you quote scripture one would think you'd actually believe it!
How can you say that nobody has an idea what Heaven is like when so much of the Bible and Jesus' teachings describe it to us? Are you suggesting that Jesus lied in His description of Heaven? Is Jesus was not describing Heaven in a truthful way then why do you profess to believe in anything He said and be called by His name?

Either you believe all of the Bible as Truth or you don't...but don't use parts of it to fit your needs and then discard the rest. That's what true cults do...use only the scriptures that back your views, discarding the true overall picture.

2 Timothy 4:18

Hey Maryland, You are shooting from the hip!Mormons do have a different view on the nature of God. So do some Pentecostals. But, they do believe that Jesus was born of a virgin,was crucified for us. They believe that he rose from the dead & sits at the right hand of God the Father.They believe he is a living Christ.What a stupid comment you made about Easter Sunday too.A lot of churches have a sunrise service or something like that.You have no idea about what they believe.As a matter of fact, you probably don't know much about the so-called mainline Protestant denominatios either.You may think you do, but you would shocked if you would actually check out what they teach at the Seminaries of these churches. A good example is the Episcopal Church. A bunch of Apostates! Also, Mormons are more well read in the Bible than most "mainline" Church members! And about that belief in heaven,nobody has an idea of what glory will look like or where it is.So, don't be assigning people to Hell because of thier concept of Heaven. Paul says that we see through a dark glass,but, face to face we will see clearly. Let's just let our Heavenly Father reveal His secrets in his own good time.

I am just wondering...because of what the LDS has taught about the origin of the races, especially, the African-American...if he and other leaders of their church would support a black President or, even more so, a black leader for the LDS church overall?

"In my father's house are many rooms, if it were not so I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you."
John 14:2 NIV

These words of Jesus describe Heaven...one of many references made to Heaven in the Bible. If Mormons are to be considered a "Christian" denomination, and to have the name of Jesus Christ as part of their name, then how does their belief validate the teachings of Christ and the Bible?

The Mormons believe that their reward is not a Heaven as taught in the Bible...instead that they their reward will be to inhabit and populate another planet.

Either Jesus taught the truth or He didn't!!!...the Mormons seek to blend in with the mainstrean religions... but all one has to do is learn their teachings and compare those to the Bible to know the difference!

What makes a person a Christian?

The fundamental Christian beliefs are enumerated in the Apostle's Creed and the Nicene Creed. The Nicene Creed was written in AD 325 at the Council of Nicea.

A Creed is a short statement of belief.

I saw a TV clip the other day where one of the Mormon leaders said that he did not understand the Nicene Creed. He did not say what he did not believe.

All Christians believe:

INCARNATION:
Jesus was born of the Virgin Mary. (Christmas) She became pregnant by the Power of Holy Spirit.
(Feast of the Incarnation)

DEATH:
Jesus was crucified, died and buried. (Good Friday)

RESURRECTION:
Jesus came back to life. (Easter Sunday)

ASCENSION into HEAVEN:
Jesus ascended into Heaven 40 days after Easter. (Ascension Day)

As I understand Mormon belief, they have a different understanding of the nature of Jesus, and the fundamental difference is the Incarnation. If that's ture, then stating "not Christian" about Mormons is true. I noted that a local Mormon church was empty on Easter Sunday. That's a day when all other Christian Churches are overflowing. (Perhaps they were meeting elsewhere, I don't know.)

So, these are some reasons why people ask if Mormons are Christians. They use the same name, but have a fundamentally difference concept of Jesus' nature.

Wow...I didn't know about the masacre until I googled it! Sure doesn't seem like someone i'd believe. tehy sure don't want to talk aboutit huh?

True to form, my Evangelical brothers & sisters love to do "research" on Mormons & what they believe. Countless times I have been to the Home Bible studies & in Sunday School observing the big easel board listing the various "cults". That list seems to get bigger as time goes by. I agree that some are dangerous cults. I will not name them here, however I always see Mormons headlining the list. Recently, Pentecostals & Catholics have made the list. I guess that is the "They are without a doubt, going to hell list!" Scipture tells me that those who have not had thier sins washed by the Blood of the Lamb are hell bound. PERIOD!! Another thing.To win someone over to you, you don't beat them on the head with a Bible. You show them love & respect. I have not seen this in any of these threads posted so far. Ask a Mormon why he attends the Temple and what it means to him. Find out what the Book of Mormon says about the Savior.Try reading it.And don't say God does not want you to read it. God does not want you to read some of the secular crap that we all been guilty of reading. You don't have to accept it as God's Word, but the message of Christ's love and redemption is proclaimed throughout in it's pages. There is nothing in it that contradicts the Bible.The Book of Mormon was written for a Christian society.Only a Christian would understand it's message as being relevant in this time.Therefore the name, "Latter-Day Saints". Anyway,I don't mean to preach, just want to understand others point of view and be able to relate, and not to make fun of that I know little about.

big d - i just have to say, it takes a BIG DUDE to admit a mistake and im impressed that you came back, and called attention to your own tiny misunderstanding- ill be calling you big d- but ill be thinking big dude from now on-(unless youre a woman-then its big dudette)

Have any of you heard of the Mormon doctrine of the Blood Atonement? This allowed one to "spill the blood" of another when that person has committed an unpardonable sin. They won't tell you about that.

What about the Mountain Meadows Massacre? Google it...see if this sounds like a true religion of God or a cult...similar to the Branch Davidian or Heaven's Gate.
Do they ever talk about that?

There are a lot of eye-opening books out there by former Mormon churchmembers...a good one is "BEYOND MORMONISM" by James Spencer, a former elder.
"THE TRUTH ABOUT MORMONISM" by Hugh Pyle is another.
There's a movie called "THE GOD MAKERS"...if you really seek the truth do yur homework and then judge for yourself.

It all really boils down to what Jesus said "I
(ONLY I) am THE way, THE truth and THE life...no one one comes to the Father but through ME"...anyone that teaches differently does not preach the truth. Religion isn't what God wants...He wants our love and our loyalty. With that in mind there was no need to create another religion...God desires a relationship with us on an individual basis. And we can have that only through faith in Jesus Christ, the Son of God.

Some of you have way too much free time!

Lincoln,

I'm not sure I understand how you can believe it was not an attempt to outlaw Mormonism. Polygamy was not illegal until Mormons were practicing it. The Edmunds/Tucker act and Reynolds decision made it illegal for them to practice part of their religion after it was already in place.

In the Edmunds/Tucker act the government decided to deny Mormon women - whom they were trying to protect - the right to vote - in order to limit the voting rights of the Mormon people. (Note that Mormon women had the right to vote before this.) They made Mormon women testify against their husbands whether they wanted to or not. Then they confiscated the Church's property and rented it back to them so they would have no money. Then they outlawed the perpetual immigration fund so that no more Mormons would come to the U.S. Then they abolished the Nauvoo Legion and any military ability of people who were now way out in the desert to protect themselves from military action on the part of the U.S. government.

All of these provisions were aimed at the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints - the Mormon church - and no other group. And yet, you say, the Edmunds Tucker act was not an attempt to outlaw Mormonism? I'm just surprised the Mormon people didn't secede from the Union.

As to the reference about ten virgins, I think the idea there is that if you marry someone who has not been married before - a virgin in those days - and this was speaking at a time when polygamy was practiced - then you are not committing adultery because they are obviously not anyone else's wife. It seems more a reminder not to commit adultery than anything else. And since the church does not practice polygamy now it is a moot point.

anyway can any of ya'll answer some quick questions for me..

1.) why can't I have more than one* wife?
2.) if I belong to a group of individuals like the Mormons and they respect me and treat me good while we enjoy worshipping Christ the Messiah, then why would that be terrible?
3.) how many Mormons does it take to elect a President??
4.) why can't we all spend more time praising Christ the Messiah instead of bickering over who does it better?
5.) oh and why don't Church of Christ listen to music?? King David danced so hard his clothes fell off, I personally couldn't dance that hard, but so what??
6.) why are Mormons any diffrent than all the other sects of Christianity lead be 'Elders' that believe their Dogma is more holy?
me personally I think that we should focus more on the actual TEACHING of CHRIST than the MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY approach

If I'm way off base with these assumptions and questions then please let me know, I just know I read the WORD and take it on FAITH, if there is a better SYSTEM out there then Let me know!!

*that is assuming I could even consider having more than one woman in my life who is willing to love me!! KING SOLOMON ANYONE???

what is that ECLATi crap?? I can't even understand that guy...all I wanted to say was really folks?? Really?? We are going to keep going around in circles on a subject that will not see any definant(sp) answers? The reason all of ya'll will keep shouting at eachother is because your minds are made up...scream all you want I hear only blahblah blahblah...If we as Christians spent more time following Christ the Messiah instead of screaming my God is better than your god....ya know i'll stop because it's not even going to help...

I do however want to ask Mr. Jacob Whatever what is all the nonesense about ECLATi really about how old are you..??

So now back to those questions....

What about the claim that the Native Americans are descended from a lost tribe of Israel? But doesn't DNA testing prove that false?

What about the Gold tablet? We certainly have the Dead Sea Scrolls to prove the writings of the Bible match ancient manuscripts...so where is the Mormon equivalent? If there was such a thing would it not be on proud display for the world to see?...or could it be all a hoax?

I really wish people would not use the word "evangelical" when what they really mean is "fundamentalist". There is a big difference, especially to those of us who consider ourselves to be evangelicals.

It is fundamentalists who are seen as "orthodox"; they see mainstream Christianity as a threat to traditional understanding of the Bible, and believe in strict interpretation and follow-through. It is a movement that was started in direct response to what was perceived by some as liberal trends in their churches.

Evangelicals on the other hand, believe in the Bible's authority in matters of faith and practice. A big part of the evangelical's life is dedicated in some way to helping the less fortunate at home or abroad.

I find it very interesting for people in these comments try to prove each other wrong or right with scriptures and their own theological differences. Then that garbage about Spaulding... dont make me laugh. What a load of garbage. Spauldings book was released AFTER the Book of Mormon, and they have NO similarities. I think its so funny, and ironic, that books 5x the size of the Book of Mormon are written to prove it wrong. And yet, Mormonism remains growing faster and faster each year. All these arguments about "The Bible Jesus" and the "Mormon Jesus" are rediculous. Who is anybody to truly define who Jesus was or is, unless they have had personal communication with Him? It is MERELY a difference of view, thats all. So all you evengelists, you have no ground, and *news flash* are falling more and more each year to the worlds trends.

I am just curious as to who ordained Evangelism as "orthodox" Christianity? Further, why is it whenever the subject of the LDS in the overall Christian realm is brought up, an Evangelical leader is sought after for the answer? The LDS Church is the 4th largest religious denomination in the country just behind the Catholics, Methodists, and Baptists. Of the top 4, all have decreasing memberships except the LDS faith which grows each year. The LDS church is not a charismatic faith, but one that bases its sermons, teachings, and culture on what it believes are doctrinal truths. It is not the "show" which many other Christian churches put on in their sermons that is causing an increase in membership both here in the U.S. and worldwide, but a sincere, consistent message of faith and love. Based on pure numbers, Catholicism as the most followed Christian faith is the bench mark of orthodoxy. That being the case, then all Protestant denominations as well as the LDS faith should be viewed as not being orthodox. I am LDS and frankly I don't want to be considered a Christian by the Evangelical standard, because it is an incorrect definition. A Christian is a disciple and follower of Jesus Christ, another definition of which is a saint. I am a Latter-Day Saint, a Christian, and no one with such unorthodox views as the Evangelical community will persuade me otherwise.

I empathize with the Mormon commenters' complaints about not being considered "Christian" by Evangelicals. But I'd empathize a lot more if Mormons didn't do the exact same thing themselves. There are a number of other (if rather smaller) sects that also believe in the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, etc., but diverge from the Salt Lake church in certain other theological aspects. And LDS leaders and members insist that that those other sects are not "Mormon" and that no one (news media, etc.) should ever refer to them as such. That's some rich and creamy hypocrisy there.

It would be interesting if discussions about Mormons by non-Mormons began with beliefs Mormons hold in common with other Christians. Below is a list that I compiled.

• There is a God in heaven, who is infinite and eternal, from everlasting to everlasting the same unchangeable God, the framer of heaven and earth, and all things, which are in them.
• The Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit are one eternal God.
• God created man, male and female, after his own image and in his own likeness.
• God gave man, male and female, commandments that they should love and serve Him, the only living and true God, and that he should be the only being whom they should worship.
• By the transgression of these holy laws man became sensual and devilish, and became fallen man.
• The Almighty God gave his Only Begotten Son, as it is written in scripture, which have been given of him.
• He suffered temptations but gave no heed to them.
• He was crucified, died, and rose again the third day.
• He ascended into heaven, to sit down on the right hand of the Father, to reign with almighty power according to the will of the Father; that as many as would believe and be baptized in his holy name, and endure in faith to the end, should be saved--not only those who believed after he came in the meridian of time, but all those from the beginning, who believed in the words of the holy prophets.
• He suffered, bled and died on the cross to perform substutionary atonement for the sins of the world.
• Jesus Christ is Lord. He is both the Son of God and God the Son.
• There is no other name and no other way by which any individual may be saved other than through Jesus Christ.
• We enter into the gospel covenant and are saved by the preaching of the word and by the grace of God.
• We are justified before God by faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
• Yielding lives to God's Holy Spirit, who enables us to obey His commands, progressively sanctifies us.
• All the gifts of the Spirit manifested in the New Testament church continue in God's church today.
• The Bible is God's word and is true and trustworthy within those parameters that the Chicago Statement on Inerrancy and the eighth LDS Article of Faith share.
• Jesus Christ will publicly and visibly return from heaven to establish his millennial kingdom on earth.
• The God of heaven is a God of love, and those who desire to be with him must also seek to be motivated in all their relationships by love.
• There is a possibility that man may fall from grace and depart from the living God.

A couple of points. Mainstream Christians are churches that subscribe to the Trinity and the Council of Nicea. Anyone else is outside the mainstream. To give you an analogous chemical example of the Trinity. Water. Water is a gas, a liquid and a solid. Water is in every living thing and even in some non-living things. Steam is still H20. Water is still H20. Ice is still H20. Three manifestations of the same element. Trinitarian thought is that the same God is found in three elements: Spirit (Holy Spirit), Flesh (Jesus Christ) and Himself (Father). Same God three manifestations. My faith says that faith in Christ for salvation is all that is needed. As Christ told the rich young ruler in Mark 10, in telling him to sell all his possessions, is that you don't have to DO anything, just follow Me. The ruler thought he had to do something. He merely had to follow Christ. That is what mainstream Christianity teaches and that is our faith. And that is not the Mormon faith.

I respect Mormons for the lives many of them lead and for their family centric lives. I wholly agree that here in America, Mormons are free to practice their faith, evangelize, run for and be elected to office and live lives which are commendable. I am happy you're here and that you're happy in your faith. Be proud of your beliefs and be open about them. But you are something other than Christians in the classical sense. I don't agree that you've found the truth, but I have no problem with you following it and encouraging others to follow it. True Christians will tell you that each of us has to make any choices in that regard, and we are eternally responsible for those choices, and that I can't force you and should not force you to believe something you don't believe. True Christian faith dictates that I only tell you what I believe is true and let you decide for yourself.

Sue, please take your open mind and read Mormonism, Momma, and Me. Thelma Gear was a devout LDS with Direct heritage in your religion. It is a must read for someone like yourself who han an open mind. Does Mormonism coincide with the Bible, or is it indeed a altogether "different gospel" What constitutes a different gospel? The problem is you believe that Joseph Smith was picked to bring back or re start or whatever you want to call it, the Church. The Church never left. Jehovahs Witness's think they have the truth and they have their founder. Mary Baker Eddy was the founder of Christian Science those people thing they have the truth, same with Seventh Day Adventists, Unification Church, Bahaii Faith, etc. There is a guy in Texas now who says he is Jesus in the flesh. Google "Growing in Grace Ministries" The point is that you have given your devotion to a "man made" organization that says it speaks for God. You are no different than any of those other groups just mentioned. The true Church of Jesus Christ is made up of all who have received His Spirit and been born again. And we are all over the world. And if you have received Jesus as your Lord and Savior, then you are a part of the body of Christ as well. And for those who think God is too big to fit into "one religion", your argument is with Jesus, not me. He is the one who said " I am the way, the truth , and the life, no one gets to the Father apart from me. Only someone with the authority of God could and would say that. This is the key. Jesus is deity. God in the flesh. Unlike any other. He is the one that people stumble over by not accepting who He is. The son of God, and God, the son. "But you need to realize that Mormon teachings are way inconsistant with Biblical teachings, thus a "different gospel" and certainly a "different Jesus" The Bible is complete. It covers everything. There is no prophecy regarding, " Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that somewhere before Jesus comes back I'm going to reinstate the church that will be way different from what has already been written." But what was written, is a warning about false prophets leading many astray from the true gospel. It even warns about getting new revelation from an Angel of Light!! Hello????
Does it not bother you in the least that the way LDS was started was the very thing Paul warned about? Please read Mormonism , Momma , and Me. May the Holy Spirit of God lead you in His truth. In Love,

I cant quote the bible or the book of morman, but living in a state next to Utah, i feel alot of people are very wary of the" momites" and their crooked ways in business,I know alot of them most I have a hard time trusting. but Mitt seems like a allright sort of guy. Dont think i could vote for him though, better than a clinton or a whatever race for sure. THANKS g.b.

First of all I may not be a Scholar or expert on religion but the way I look at it is some questions in my mind need to be answered..

1. The context of the book of mormon supposedly written 2000 years ago uses 20th century context like calling abraham abe that context was not used till early 19th century..

2. Every Christian knows or has seen the picture of the Our Lord Jesus on the cross and know he rose three days later to his death he preached the words of god..But yet the Mormons claim they have gold tablets and no one can see them and only one person can read them with these magic spectacles.

3. In the bible Jesus is asked if their are more gods as a trap.. And he stated Yes it is as you say there are more gods but in context he said if you say so but in truth there is only One God one Lord and one Savior..

4. Be wary of wolves in sheeps clothing sent to devour the flock.. Hum could they be talking of false prophets and cults such as mormons really are..

5. But to be fair to the Mormons perhaps they can explain in detail what their basis or foundation of their faith trully is?

Many gods- Jesus said- " Know you not that you are gods? quoting the Old Testament. Jesus said to be perfect like your Father in Heaven is perfect. People have the capacity, through the saving power of God, to become as He is and do His works, not just now but throughout all eternity. God is perfect in every part of his character, attributes and nature, knowledge, power, etc. We are to " become " and "do " as He does. Sue

As far as Mr. Colson goes- is there anyone among us who has not done wrong or sinned? Is there anyone that God cannot forgive and change, and who cannot change his life around and do things that are good. I am very sure that he is doing much good in his life, while many people spend their time doing not much of value. Sue

That reference in Revelations refers to that book only. There are books in the Bible that were added after Revelations. You are speaking from a lack of knowledge. Would you get rid of John's writings toward the end of the NT? They were added after. The Revelation is one seperate book- don't add to that book,don't add anything to what Peter or Paul or Jesus said. But don't say -don't ever let God ever speak again-He is God- if He did speak again, don't you think he would have something to say that is equally relavant for today as is the Bible? Well the Book of Mormon is relavant and even has clearer warnings for what is going on for today, because it was keep to be brought forth today because of all of the unbelief that exists. It was written for our day- to give us the knowledge needed today. It wasn't written for the people of the book itself, but for some of their descendants and for us. It verifies that the Bible is true and that Jesus is the Christ. It warns us what will happen if we continue as a nation/s or an individual/s to not keep the commandments of God. It gives the history of what happened to those who formerly lived on this continent when they lived them and when they didn't and why most of them were finally destroyed. Can you judge a book that you have never read?

The Church started when Joseph went into the woods to pray about which church he should join. He saw the Father and the Son. Four years later he saw the resurected Moroni ( angel), who showed him where the records of his people were kept. They were sacred and could only be had by Joseph for pure reasons. He talked with Moroni once a year for 4 years, learning of the culture of the former inhabitants of this continent-from whom Moroni descended. When his motives for having the plates, which were gold and of value,were pure, he was given the power and gift to translate them. They were returned to Moroni, but others were allowed to see and testify of them and also allowed to meet Moroni, as witnesses to the truth.Out of the mouths of two or three witnesses God establishes the truth. They were returned to Moroni.

There are computerized studies of the BofM that indicate all we claim- there are many authors, it has exactly what it says- Hebrew and Egyptian origins. It is ancient. It has the device of chiasmus in it that is also in the Bible, and was unknown at the time Joseph translated it. There are many proofs, but no proof is stronger than reading a scriptural book and finding out for yourself if it is truth. You know truth by the Spirit and by obeying the truth. You don't need a witness by seeing the original plates. The Book of Mormon will testifty of its truth to you by the power of the Holy Ghost if you want to sincerely know about it.The Book of Mormon is a second witness that Jesus is the Christ- the law of witnesses! Sue

Mormonism = Cult.

Do the Mormons not believe in the Bible as a book of truth? If not, then why do they use it as a companion with their own book?
If they do believe it as truth then why do they disregard the warning of Revelations 22:18...

"And I solemnly declare to everyone who hears the words of prophecy written in this book: If anyone addsanything to what is written here, God will add to that person the plagues described in this book." NIV

Has anything in the Bible been proven to be untrue? Has any claim by the Mormon church ever proven to be untrue? Are the Native Americans truly a lost tribe of Israel as claimed?...or has DNA evidence disproved that?
Where are the golden tablets???

Mark

Joseph Smith saw an angel of light who gave him a new gospel. One different from the one Paul gave.
Galatians 1: 6-9 "I am amazed that you are so quickly deserting Him who called you by the grace of Christ for a different gospel; which is really not another; only there are some who are disturbing you and want to distort the gospel of Christ. But even though we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed. If Joseph Smith had read his Bible he would have seen that he was not supposed to listen to that "Angel of Light" Satan can disguise himself as an angel of light. 2 Cor: 11: 14 All who are reading this should check out the book by Thelma Gear. "Mormonism , Mama, and Me. Every Mormon should read it. Read the story of her meeting the real Jesus and not the one that Mormons believe in. The trouble with Mormons or Jehovah's witness's, or Seventh Day adventists, or Christian Scientists, or any of the other pseudo Christian groups, is that they have a founder with a "new revelation" seperate and different from what the scripture teach's. And we have been warned by Jesus about this happening. Read Matthew 24. When Jesus is asked about the signs of His soon return, the first thing He said was, "don't be misled" VS 11 "And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. Joseph Smith was a false prophet. Study the History of Mormonism. If the foundation is corrupt, the whole organization is corrupt. It doesn't matter what it looks like on the outside, or how nice the people are. Strong words, but true. Please read Mormonism , Mama and Me. We are to test the spirits.

I dont think my last comment went through. I dont have anything against the mormons personally but for me going by other books than the bible would be wrong. But each person must search for the truth as they see it to be. I think it says in the bible to not go by any other books so for me the Mormon religion would not be the right one.

I have to wonder how many Jews, Romans, or other groups considered the early Christians mainstream. I seem to recall that Christ warned his apostles they would be persecuted and hated by the world, just as He was. If anything, being "mainstream" is evidence of not being a true follower of Christ.

As for the idea that the Book of Mormon is not needed because the Bible is the word of God, what is wrong with having more of the word of God? If the Gospel of Matthew is the word of God, why do we need the other three Gospels? If God wants to establish the truth with two or more witnesses, what is wrong with that? Would you pluck out one eye because the other is redundant? Doesn't having two eyes give us depth perception and greater perspective? I welcome truth from whatever source God gives it.

Anonymous-

The Edmunds/Tucker Act was not a law that made Mormonism illegal, but a law that enforced the illegality of polygamy under the Supreme Court Reynolds decision.

The Edmunds-Tucker Act of 1887 passed as a supplement the Edmunds Law, which became law without the signature of President Cleveland. This new law included the following provisions:

A wife or wives were forced to testify against their husbands.
Witnesses did not have to be subpoenaed to appear in court.
Definite laws and punishments regarding immoralities (in the eyes of the law) were set forth.
All marriages performed were to be recorded with a probate court.
Probate judges were to be appointed by the President of the United States.
Woman suffrage was abolished (to restrict the Mormon elective franchise).
A test oath was reintroduced into Utah's elective process: voting, serving on juries, or holding public office were conditional upon signing the oath pledging obedience to and support of all anti-polygamy laws.
Utah Commission was to continue in charge of elections and was empowered to administer the qualifying oath.
The Perpetual Emigrating Fund Company was dissolved (in an effort to curtail the influx of foreign converts who added to Mormon voting strength.)
The Nauvoo Legion was abolished and all local military laws repealed.
To establish a "free public school education," the office of territorial superintendent of schools was replaced by a commissioner to be appointed by the Utah Supreme Court.
"To accomplish the destruction of Mormon political and economic power in Utah, the Church was disincorporated and its property escheated to the United States." The escheated Church property was to be used for the benefit of the common schools of the territory.
By June, 1888, the government had escheated from the Church property valued in excess of $800,000. The government had seized by this date most of the real property of the Church and then rented back to the Church part of this property.
The Church rented the Historian's office and the General Tithing office for $300 per month and the Gardo House for $70. These rentals were raised to $500 per month for the Tithing and Historian's offices and $450 for the Gardo House.
The Church farm was also leased to the Church. The President's office was placed in the charge of two marshals and Temple block was leased to the Church for $1.00 per month.
Most of the Church property had been transferred into the hands of trusted individuals and local organizations and it was estimated that the Church had about three million dollars worth of property when the Edmunds-Tucker Act was being discussed in Congress.
Prior to the issuance of the Manifesto, there were approximately 1.300 men who had been convicted in Utah for violating the anti-polygamy laws and a few others had been imprisoned in Idaho and Arizona. (There were 327 convictions before the end of 1887, 334 in 1888, and 346 in 1889.)
It is as difficult to measure the real magnitude of the effect of the anti polygamy acts upon the Mormons, as it is to measure the effects of a minority that "lived" the law of plural marriage on the majority that only supported it. (Larson, p. 216.)

The Mormon church did not abide by this law, and many polygamists were jailed under its provisions. It put the stranglehold on polygamy that the Federal government wanted, resulting in the 1890 abandonment of the practice of polygamy by the Mormon church. This abandonment was only a public display to appease the Federal government, as the Mormons continued to practice polygamy in Canada and Mexico officially until 1904. The Smoot hearings finally put an end to Mormon-sponsored polygamy in Salt Lake LDS church, but many fundamentalists never discontinued the practice.

In response to your question about the promise of ten virgins to Mormon men. This promise is contained in the Doctrine and Covenants Section 132:62, which reads: "And if he have ten virgins given unto him by this law, he cannot commit adultery, for they belong to him, and they are given unto him; therefore is he justified." This scripture is included in the Mormon's cannon of scripture today, and remains in full force.

I would consider the LDS church to be within the Christian realm. It just so happens that Christianity doesn't fit into a neat little box the way evangelical Christians want to always believe. Christianity crosses many spectrums of practice and doctrine from Unitarians to Orthodox to liberal Episcopalians to hardshell Baptists to Roman Catholics and so on. It seems Christians have the hardest time tolerating fellow Christians, never mind Muslims, Jews or atheists.

I have many thoughts after reading all of yours. But one thought stays the same, God sent all of us to live on this earth together and to see if we could get along and have a little joy at the same time. I sure hope we can. Being a member of The Church of Jesus Christ helps me realize that and I am a better person because of that doctrine - to have joy and get along. Personally, I don't believe we are mainstream. I agree with someone else's thoughts in that I don't want to be mainstream. Watch the news, I don't want to be a part of the mess some people have made! I want to have pure happiness and be make great friendships. I am doing a pretty good job of it too!

As a Presbyterian (USA) who is a Democrat, I've felt judged by the religious right to be hell-bound. I share that much with LDSers, with whom I've been friends, played sports, etc.

This is unfair overgeneralization for many LDSers, I'm sure, but in a way, I believe the protestant right wing evangelicals and the right wing LDSers deserve each other as bunkmates, insofar as they manifest their faith and values by supporting conservative political causes. Their support of Iraq-tied-to-Al-Qaeda lying, Mammon-worshipping, torturing, oppressive-regime-supporting, the-poor-and-imprisoned-neglecting, gun-loving, environment-be-damned-exploiting-and-polluting, global-warming-loving, intolerance-promoting, people-of-color-race-baiting politicians puts them in the same boat as far as I'm concerned. They're so focused on achieving stylized and selective personal righteousness, that they've completely lost their bearings and stopped listening to God and Jesus about what we are supposed to do in this world. I've got a log in my own eye, but folks, you've got a lot of explaining to do to God. Y'all should read Matthew 25:31-46 and quake in your spiritual boots. You're in danger, big danger, but most of you will keep smilin', I'm guessing. I hope not.

The dialogue is stale. Not irrelevant!

Fact is you can't ask an Italian person to educate you about the Chinese experience. Be the Chinese person who has had the experience for the last 30 years. Our mainstream Italian is going to propose to educate the Chinese person about what Chinese REALLY stand for based on what some other mainstream intellectual taught him to believe. Basic enough? enough said. Now shake it off and get back to reality!
In the absence of the experience how can anyone possibly make any claims to the truth? Can't happen. WHY? Simply because the truth is not available without first being preceeded by a sincere desire to want to know the truth. Perhaps, the verb "to seek" may require more than we presently give it. That is worth being introspective about!!
How much of this data have we acquired from other well intended, yet imperfect sources of truth? How much dependence have we placed on God for truth? Enough said!
There is nothing "Christian" that comes with attacking another person's belief. Nope! Not really! That level of contention is not really my idea of Christian. Nope! Not really! If you really want to know - have some courage and simply check it out for yourself with a focus on sincerity. It's not complicated - it's just NOT mainstream to actually do your own homework! Until then... no one can claim an objective investigation of the truth. Nope! Not really!

In the end "...by their fruits ye will know them."
(I read that somewhere..)
I'm with Romney because of HIS fruits.
That's the truth!

Dale,

Good questions! Within the Christian church there are many denominatons, yes.. Coming from different backgrounds or areas (Presbyterian=Scotland, Anglican=England, Lutheran=German, Baptist=American) there are naturally minor differences in style of worship or baptismal customs but the core Bible based beliefs are the same. There are different translations of the Bible from different times, but each one is a translation of the original texts. They are saying the same thing. To study the original Greek texts or ancient copies shows that the Bible has stayed the same.
To study the Book of Mormon or POGP or other doctrines we see in its short lifespan numerous changes made to it. If the Bible is truely the Word Of God as it claims, then we need no other texts. The Bible warns against taking away or adding to its pages..

The Truth about Mormonism:

Mormonism is actually based on the plagiarized writings of a retired Methodist minister named Solomon Spalding. Spaulding mused himself writing fiction in King James English in the 1800's at a time when there was no TV or radio. Spaulding's writings were completed about 20 years prior to Joseph Smith supposedly finding the "Golden Plates" in Upstate New York. Many people from Spaulding's local community would gather in Spaulding's front yard and listen for hours to him "preach" into the front yard from his porch. The people's excitement spurred Spaulding to become interested in publishing his "manuscript" into a book.

Spaulding took his manuscript to a publisher in his community. He left it there for review and hoped the publisher would invest in making a book out of it. This publisher has since been directly linked to Joseph Smith, the founder of Mormonism, the supposed writer of the Book of Mormon.

The manuscript and writings that Solomon Spaulding wrote were left at the publisher's shop. The manuscript "mysteriously disappeared" after being left in the publisher’s “trustworthy” custody. Spaulding’s manuscript as a complete document has since never been found...

Today, many portions of the original "Book of Mormon" have since been professionally analyzed by many handwriting experts who concur and confirm that they are in Solomon Spaulding's handwriting. The handwriting analysis dates back to the 1970’s. Therefore, much of the Book of Mormon is actually Solomon Spaulding's fictional manuscript.

Imagine, an entire multi-million dollar church/cult has been formed around a plagerized fictional manuscript and an opportunistic man named Joseph Smith. Smith's history and the history of the Mormon church is a fascinating part of American History and one of the biggest lies that has ever been perpetrated on our society.

Anyone interested in getting more information about this should do an Internet search on "Solomon Spaulding" and judge for themselves.

Most Mormons are God-fearing and loving people who have been deceived by years of lies perpetrated by their leadership. I am greatly saddened by it and have a great love for the Mormon people. I have several Mormon friends. They are good people.

Jesus and the writings about him in the New Testament were all prophetically fulfilled in scriptures found throughout the Old Testament, pointing to Him as ultimate fulfillment of scripture and the Jewish Messiah. Christianity is actually the continuation and fulfillment of Judaism.

There is nothing in the New Testament indicating that there would ever be a "new revelation" to follow it. To the contrary, the New Testament proclaims we should not be tricked into following any "New Gospel" such as the one Joseph Smith plagerized from Solomon Spaulding.

Mitt Romney seems to be a good candidate for President. I am not sure if I will vote for him. His Mormon believes concern me because of potential links to dishonest leadership in the Mormon Church. At the same time, I have been much more concerned with our current President's leadership (or lack of) even though I do believe his Christian beliefs are sincere.

I find it interesting when everyone compares the Mormon Church against "Christianity". Does that mean that all the other christian churches are the same? Do the Protestants and Catholics practice or believe in the same teachings of their leaders? Why is their a Greek, Roman, Russian Orthodox Catholics? If I recall news events those 3 don't get along with each other. How many versions of the bible are there? Over the centuries before the printing press how accurately was it copied? Was it ever altered to fit the view of the particular faith that was copying it. Was it translated correctly from Greek, Roman, German, etc.? Why are people so insistant that God and Jesus has stopped communicating with his children almost 2,000 years ago and wouldn't have anything else to say? Just some random questions.

REMEMBER, the belief in a Jesus does not make you Christian. Almost every faith out there has some version of him in their doctrines or history

Even Satan believes, and knows Jesus. I wouldn't call him a Christian.

I respect the Morman faith for is morality and good values and intentions. I support their right to believe what they believe. But they are what they are, Mormons.
Read the Bible, you can't be both. When ones salvation is up for grabs, its the differences that really do count after all..

There is much truth in this "debate" but also much mistruth and chaff. One thing most agree on is it is all about one thing...JESUS. True.

The problem is, our world is full of false Christs
and it is easy to worship and believe in one of these all the while unaware that while the name is the same, the face is very different.

The TRUTH is, the Biblical Jesus is completely different than the Mormon Jesus. When 2 things that contradict both claim to be the only one, someone is lying.

Satan is clever in flooding the marketplace of world religons/cults with many different versions
of Jesus. While they all bear similarities and the same name, only one makes the claim of being GOD, the Biblical Jesus.

A group referring to themselves as "traditional Christians" has just distributed thousands of copies of an anti-LDS DVD that refers to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints as a "cult." Such labeling is unkind and thwarts the understanding and respect for pluralism that modern society seeks.

This group's DVD questions the authenticity of Mormons as Christians.

From a perspective internal to the LDS Church, Mormons are unquestionably Christian. The fundamental tenet of the church is that Jesus is the son of God and savior of the world. LDS missionaries testify of the atonement and resurrection of Christ and baptize in the name of Christ.

The Book of Mormon states, "We talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ" (II Nephi 25:26).

Each Sunday, Mormons partake of the emblems of the body and blood of Christ in remembrance of Gethsemane, Golgotha and the empty tomb. This weekly sacrament is done with a vocalized pledge "to always remember him and keep his commandments." And every prayer is said "in the name of Jesus Christ."

Mormon adults sing the traditional Christian hymns ("I know that my redeemer lives," for example) and the children sing songs like "I feel my savior's love" and give talks on Jesus.

The church-generated literature includes classics like "Jesus the Christ" by Talmage and McConkie's five-volume "The Messiah." And Mormonism has given Christianity such formidable New Testament scholars as J. Rueben Clark ("Why the King James Version"), and Dr. Sidney B. Sperry ("Paul's Life and Letters").

On the other hand, from an external perspective, many LDS beliefs diverge dramatically from standard Christian theology and are troubling to traditionalists.

Mormons reject the concept of the Trinity and instead believe that God the father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost are three separate personages. This appears contradictory to John 17:21, but consistent with Matthew 3:16-17 and Luke 23:34. The LDS believe God is a personal being with a physical body, an apparent contradiction to John 4:24, but seemingly consistent with Genesis 1:26-27 and Exodus 33:11.

Unlike most Christians, Mormons do not believe in original sin, the hereditary corruption in the offspring of Adam. Instead, Mormons point to John 1:9 and believe in accountability for individual sins and that the "light of Christ" is given to every newborn child.

In contrast to most Christians, Mormons do not emphasize hell and believe on a tiny fraction of humanity will go there. Mormons stand with the Apostle Paul's "degrees of glory" and three-heavens based upon personal valiancy (I Corinthians 15:40-42 and II Corinthians 12:2).

The most striking contrast, however, is that the Latter-day Saints believe in extra-Biblical scripture. This belief, so offensive to some, seems in violation of Revelation 22:18. Mormons, however, point to John 10:16, Isaiah 29:11-18, and Ezekiel 37:15-19.

And the Latter-day Saints do not decorate their buildings or persons with a cross. The focus of remembrance is the emblems of the Lord's Supper and the vision of a resurrected Christ, rather than the weapon of destruction.

There is no definitive statement acceptable to all of what constitutes a Christian. It seems clear, however, that for some Christians to declare others "non-Christian" or "cults" due to differences in interpretation of scripture, is in itself rather un-Christian. It smacks of prejudice and intolerance. Indeed, much of the accusation of Mormons being non-Christian appears to me to be calculated to harass.

What can be more Christian than a people taking upon themselves the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, seeking sanctification by partaking of his grace through faith and repentance, revering his life through diligent and prayerful scripture study, and striving to be like him? Such is the pursuit of members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

I can't believe anyone thinks Charles Colson can or should be listened to in this day and age on any topic of any substance or integrity whatsoever. The fact, given his past, that anyone takes him seriously on anything at all is mind-boggling.

Dear Andrea,

What if one's religious beliefs include the overthrow of our government?

Lincoln,

What was the Edmunds/Tucker act but an attempt to outlaw a religion - Mormonism? And was their desire to continue to practice freedom of religion any different than the desire of those who fled to America to avoid religious persecution? I would like to see where the Mormon church ever used anything but civil disobedience to protest what they felt was an unjust law. Has any other religion had an extermination order given against them by representatives of the government as Mormons did in Missouri? And I have no ideas where you get the statement about 10 virgins.

Also, an article of faith of the church states - we believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers and magistrates, and obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

We believe in acting peacefully to try to change the law.

Pete Bogardus,

I love your comments!! A person with real common sense is nice to hear from on sites like these!

Anonymous,

I'm LDS, and as such have had to answer many crazy questions in my day. I thought I had heard them all so I just have to ask: What the heck do we do with bed sheets?

Thank you Lee. I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints, and I can't tell you how refreshing it is to hear someone say, "We all believe in Christ and in loving and serving our fellow man, so can't we all cooperate and build on our similarities?" Again, Thank You. I appreciate your civility and gentle replies.

Also - the talk about whether or not Mitt Romney would be a good president because he is a Mormon is similar to the talk about whether or not JFK could be a good president because he was Catholic. At the time it was a serious concern for some people. Today, saying that a Catholic couldn't be a good president sounds so discriminatory.

Amazing that we are having this conversation in the hear and now, over 50 years after the Kennedy Catholicism debate. Imagine if, in this day an age, a confirmed AGNOSTIC were to seek the presidency? Or a Pandeist? Or a regular old Deist? Oh, well I suppose we've already had a few of those!

The Mormon church should be regarded with as much respect as any other church in the United States. In theory this is a true statement, yet on occasion, Mormon church leaders have encouraged the membership to disobey federal laws, such as the Supreme Court decision in Reynolds and the Edmunds/Tucker Act. Other religious leaders have not instructed their membership to directly disobey federal statutes and Supreme Court decisions. That is why many U.S. citizens would be concerned that Mormon Church President Hinckley could instruct the church membership to disobey federal laws again. Brigham Young and John Taylor were notorious for advocating disobedience to the "laws of men." This historic friction between the United States and a Mormon hierarchy with theocratic tendencies, has been an issue from the beginnings of Mormonism. I do not have any evidence that other religions have waged war against the United States in word and in deed, as the Mormon church has done in the past. Theoretically, President Hinckley could receive a new revelation to disobey the rule of law, and encourage the practice of polygamy again. This is a possibility under the current theological beliefs in Mormonism, especially with Doctrine and Covenants Section 132 remaining in full force. The Doctrine and Covenants are binding scripture in Mormonism, and Section 132 authorizes the practice of plural marriage, promising 10 virgins to righteous Mormon men. Given the doctrine of modern revelation, a distinct possibility exists that Mormon directives could take precedent over Federal law, as occurred in the past. What assurance does the U.S. public have that the Mormon church will not disobey laws in the future? A primary concern regarding Mormonism, is whether Mormons will choose to obey the Prophet or the laws of the United States should a conflict occur. This is a troubling issue, which has not been fully resolved.

Are Mormons afforded the same rights and privileges under the Constitution as other religions? Legally, of course they are. But on an individual basis, it is unclear whether Mormons respect other people‘s right of religious freedom. This is an interpersonal issue that is influenced by the institutional directives of the Mormon church. It rests on the ability of the church membership to make genuine friendships with people of other faiths, without the ulterior motive of converting them to Mormonism. Is it possible for a Mormon to make friends with a member of another religion, without the ulterior motive of someday converting that person to Mormonism? Yes, of course. But after watching the antics of Mormon missionaries on the PBS special, it is logical to conclude that many Mormons feel it is their duty to convert everyone to Mormonism. This concept is inherently offensive to many people who simply want to be considered genuine friends, without being viewed as a potential "convert baptism" in the future. Many creeds believe that they have the exclusive truth, not just Mormons. Many others are atheist or agnostic. Many other religions have developed a true tolerance for all humanity and do not feel the overbearing necessity of converting them to their own faith. Will Mormons ever be able to be genuine friends with non-Mormons without having the ulterior motive of conversion? This is a fair question, given the obvious harrassment of average citizens that was demonstrated by Mormon missionaries during the missionary segment of the PBS Frontline documentary. Maybe the reason Mormonism has not truly entered the mainstream yet, is that many people conclude, fairly or unfairly, that mormons are only interested in outside contact to the extent that they are fulfilling their duty as missionaries. This would be extremely shallow, superficial, and limiting, and would define Mormons as nothing more than scripted automatons. Mormons need to learn to have genuine friendships with people from outside their religion, on a wider scale. It is insulting to members of other faiths and non-believers, that Mormons believe they possess the exclusive truths of nature, when there is ample evidence in the history of the Mormon church, that it has just as many flaws (if not more) as any of the other faiths. Will the leadership ever encourage teaching true Mormon church history instead of a whitewashed version through its correlated lesson materials? Many Mormon's missionary zeal would diminish to proper levels if they fully understood the truly tenuous nature of Mormonism’s truth claims, from a historic perspective.

Before Mormonism is treated with the full faith and respect that other religions receive, it must demonstrate that it is deserving of such respect. The first step toward that respect would be a shift in emphasis away from converting every human being on the planet to Mormonism, toward loving every human being on the planet with the true Christian love, the love that Mormonism already professes to have. This shift will need to be generated from the upper levels of the Mormon church leadership structure. Until that happens on a broad scale, many will continue to view Mormonism collectively as a second-class religion.

I don't know where anonymous gets his/her information, that only men have theological or spiritual significane. Women hold very important positions in the Mormon church and teach theological subjects. And women do not exist to serve men, any more than the men are taught to serve their wives and children (you must not know any good Mormon families) there has to be a head of any organization, job, etc. The man is the head of the church, family, etc but the woman counsels with the men and are equal partners. And racial prejudice... I don't think any one was more happy and excited than when the priesthood was extended to men of any race and color. Up until then they could be members. No other church could give them more than the Mormons gave them. And it wasn't the black members who had a problem with it, it was those who weren't members, who were complaining and they weren't wanting it anyway. Where do you get it that it is awful old men who run the church. What makes them awful? That they teach the truth, and try to lift the people, you hear nothing but positive things from them.
Most churches go by the Nicene Creed, which Constantine when converted to Christianity, became aware of the divisiveness among the clergy concerning the nature of Diety. So he gathered the eminent leaders of the day to Nicea in the year 325 AD. Each participant was given opportunity to state his views. The arguments only grew more heated. When a definition could not be reached, a mompromise was made. It came to be known as the Nicene Creed and it' basic elements are recited by most of the Christian faithful. To me it is extremely confusing. How could a person believe God the Father and his son and the Holy Ghost could all be the same person, why would Christ have prayed if He was praying to himself. Why would God have spoken at Christ's baptism if it was really Christ who spoke? that makes no sense. And what do people think resurrection is? It is when our body and spirit are reunited. God and Christ both have bodies of flesh and bones.
Maybe there is something wrong with others definition of Christian. They have put in what they want as the peramiters of what a Christian is. Who is to say their definition is right. I feel a Christian is one who tries to live a Christ like life. (By their fruits ye shall know them)
What do you mean there is no evidence of Christ coming to America. You must not have been to Mexico, Central and South America and read the legends there, seen paintings in the perimids there etc. There is an abundance of evidence. You might find it exciting to start researching.
The Book of Mormon clarifies many things that are hard to understand in the Bible, they compliment each other.
Does it make any sense that there would be prophets in Biblical times and not now? We need a prophet now more than any other time.
Missionary work: I would not think much of a person if they had what they thought was the best thing on earth and they wouldn't share that information with me and others, especially if they believed it had so much to do with their eternal salvation.

Hi- I am familiar with the group through whom you were converted. It used to be called International Christian Leadership, and I met Abraham Vereide and know his granddaughter. I have a great respect for ICL, now called "The Group." I used to be a Christian in the same way that you are. I was gradually led to the LDS Church and my membership is the best thing that ever happened to me. I was very well versed in the Bible, and a member, over 17 years of many churches and organizations. I worked at Willowbank, in Bermuda, one summer, years ago. My membership in the LDS Church has deepened my faith in the Savior. While I understand your problem with other scriptures, all I can say is that when I read the Book of Mormon, the Spirit bore witness of its truth. I don't really believe that God only spoke once, since he is the same yesterday, today and forever. He can speak when he wants, and he speaks through prophets. The Book of Mormon is about a prophet and his family which left Jerusalem before it was devastated by the Babylonians. They wandered in the wilderness, and eventually sailed to this continent. Like the Bible, it is the history of God's dealing with these people, as recorded by prophets on this continent. Can anyone honestly say that they know everything God has ever done or said! When all truth is revealed, eventually, we will know more - so very much more- about real "His-tory" because it is His story and not ours. Like Jesus said to Phillip, when he asked where he lived- "Come and see." We say the same- "Come and see, and don't prejudge us by what you hear or read."
Bye the way, all of us would have great respect for the great outreach ministry you have. We all serve the same God and Savior, even though there are differences in the way we view His plan, His nature. Are we not so limited in our finiteness, that we would need prophets today, to guide us through the mess the world is in. I find it a wonderful experience to have prophets and apostles to guide the church, which is organized to prepare the earth for the Savior's return. We all anticipate that- don't we.
Sue

Nicely put Mr. Colson. A candidate should be judged according to his/her positions on the issues and the content of his/her character, regardless of religious affiliation. Is Mormonism mainstream? In what regard? In our rather religiously pluralistic society I would say that it has become so. Is it mainstream Christianity? Not by a long shot. Nor is it likely to ever be, unless the defining characteristics of historic/orthodox Christianity are re-defined. Mormonism is as different from Christianity as Islam or Hinduism, but has adopted and redefined orthodox terminology to suit their own theological goals. Ol' Joe was a sly guy!

Chuck:

How many Mormons would run over their grandmother for Richard Nixon?

Mormons are Christians. I always thought that a Christian was someone who believed in Christ. If one believes in Christ, one is a Christian. The thing that causes conflict is that there are many different Christian religion - many religions that believe in Christ. This is not really a problem except that I think it can be a little confusing for people. Joseph Smith, at the age of 14, was confused about it at least, so he followed the advice in the King James Bible in James chapter 1, verse 5 that says "If any of you lack wisdom let him ask of God." Joseph's first experience after praying to know which christian church he should join was in seeing God the Father and his son Jesus Christ. Whether or not one believes this really happened or not, one can at least not dispute that Joseph Smith believed in Jesus Christ. The church is in fact called The Church of JESUS CHRIST of Latter-Day Saints. I belong to that church and I believe very strongly in Jesus Christ as my Savior and King. And whether or not I believe in the exact same docrine as other Christian religions is beside the point. I mean if all Christian churches beleived the same doctrine there would only be one church, and if that was the case, Joseph Smith would never have prayed in that grove of trees in the first place.

I don't get all the emphasis on "mainstream". Who really cares? The Mormon faith is either true or it's not true. If you truly believe in your religious practice you strive to live it. And if you believe that path to be true whether it is considered mainstream or not makes no difference.

And for one last comment on the revelations that have come to the prophets.

The story that we were told by the guy in charge of missions about why tobacco is forbidden relates to how power is used. It seems that one evening while the movement was still in its infancy that the leaders met in Joseph Smith's house for a long discussion about the problems facing the community. They didn't smoke but they all chewed tobacco and weren't particularly adept at hitting the spittoons. After they left, Mrs. Smith had to clean up the mess. The next morning Joseph announced that a visitation from God revealed that tobacco was forbidden to all good Mormons.

It was interesting that in all the anecdotes that this guy gave, you could always tell the bad guy because he smoked. There was one story about how a couple young Mormon missionaries gave a talk to a class of Catholic seminarians, the point being that as the missionaries talked, the priests in training quietly put out their cigarettes. Then there was the anecdote about how when one of the Prophets first saw the Grand Canyon, he knelt and prayed whereas when some nonmormon got to the canyon, he was not impressed and flicked his cigarette ash into it.

At a retreat in the early 70's, one of the high ranking individuals from Salt Lake City was discussing God's curse put on blacks because of the sin of Ham. At the time, blacks were forbidden membership in the LDS. I remember him telling us that eventually God would lift the curse, but it wouldn't happen in our lifetimes. Thanks to the civil rights movement, it happened even in his lifetime.

I think there is confusion in the definition of terms in the discussion of "gods" here. Mormon theology does not see them becoming the despots of their own worlds or anything like that. It has more to do with the idea of what they call, "eternal progression," the idea that God, as Father, wants his children to always become more like Himself, Jesus being the prime example.

Romans 8:17 (King James Version)
17And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

John 10:35-36 (King James Version)
35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;

36Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?

References to "false gods" are irrelevant, of course, to the discussion.

Anyway, discussion of "gods," has a long history in Christian theology referring, I think, in some cases to what might be called governing angels, though I am not at all qualified to comment further. Anyone? CS Lewis' Space Trilogy (Out of the Silent Planet, Perelandra, That Hideous Strength) deals creatively (it's a hoot IMHO) with some of these old ideas.

I was at a Hindu wedding once, and if I remember correctly, the officiating priest (sorry if I get the terminology wrong) had the couple give coconuts to each other. He said, the coconut is very small compared to the tree into which it will grow. Similarly, the couple should recognize in each other the god within them.

In Buddhism, the highest state is to break out of the endless cycle of reincarnation and become one with Buddha. This is reminiscent of John 17:21, where Jesus prays to God the Father, "That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me." And so we come full circle back to Christianity. They may not agree on the particulars, but I think these different theologies are not as different as some might think. There are many points of contact.

To all who are concerned with us "Mormons" being mainstream:

I would hope that we would never be considered "Mainstream." For anything "Mainstream" follows trends, rather than divine truth. Look at all of the "rock churchs" popping up everywhere. You come in jeans, you listen to a rock band, read 1 verse out of the Bible, and then your good. So in that light, i hope we NEVER become anything close to that. Now, to anybody that may attend those types of churchs, i do not put down. If i wasnt a part of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, i would probably attend a similiar church. But we as "Mormons" stand for truth (wether you agree with us or not) and stand for what we believe is right, regardless of what other "Mainstream" churches say. Who can put a definition on who or who is not a Christian, but Christ Himself? I believe i am a Christian, as i believe in Him, and love and follow Him to the best i can.

So regardless of what others say about us or our church, they have no real ground to pick us apart. For every church can be picked apart to the max. Christ was the only perfect soul on this earth...

So i hope all who say we arent Christian, take a step back, and ask yourself, do you REALLY have ANY authority to lable someone as such?

"Mormons are generally much more fair minded than Evangelicals."

From my own experience I would agree with this statement from Henry James, but the bar is not all that high. It does not take much to be more fair minded than someone like Dobson, the Graham kids or the rest of that crew.

None of Mr. Colson's observations on the differences between Mormonism and Christianity really were of any substance. They were all doctrinal in nature and did not address any behavioral differences that result from beliefs. After all, your beliefs do not affect anything unless put into action.

My own observations from having attended services for a year at a ward in the northeast is that it closely resembles a fraternity. There is a lot of social pressure to conform to rather arbitrary standards and to not involve yourself outside the closed community. There is pressure not to take an interest in anything that does not affect mormonism. The old saying, "What does it mean for the Jews?," can be applied to mormonism as well. For me the biggest problem was that everyone was supposed to check his brain and his logic at the parking lot and believe and do what you were told without question. This blatant authoritarianism and even more blatant patriarchialism which is part and parcel of the whole culture is what bodes ill for the country if Romney, in fact, is an observant Mormon. We have seen what six years of this type of thing has done to America. I doubt we can survive another six.

I love reading Mr. Colson's "Breakfront" columns which are, like First Things journal, on the frontier of protecting serious religious belief and expression in the public sphere against the atheists and non-serious religions who want to silence anyone who still believes we are accountable to our Creator for what we do with our nation.

On the issue of Mormon candidates like Harry Reid and Mitt Romney: Part of the social covenant of America under our Constitution is that every American will have civil and political rights no matter what his or her religious views or lack thereof. That is why Article VI of the Constitution specifically prohibits religion from being a qualifier or disqualifier for Federal office. In accordance with that promise, ever since Utah was admitted into statehood in 1896, Mormons have soght to be part of the political mainstream (not the religious mainstream) of American life. Reed Smoot was a Mormon apostle and a powerful Senator. Ezra Taft Benson was a Mormon apostle and Secretary of Agriculture for Eisenhower, and eventually became president of the LDS Church. Mitt Romney's father George was a three-term governor of Michigan and a cabinet secretary. Mormons from Utah, Arizona, Oregon, Idaho, Oklahoma and Florida have served in Congress. Mormons are well represented in the armed forces (BYU has a huge AFROTC program) (I served 20 years). Mormons like Mike Leavitt have served other Presidents.

Not a single untoward thing has happened to America because Mormons have served as generals and mayors, governors and senators--including a recent governor of Massachusetts. The 2002 Winter Olympics were not only a demonstration of Mitt Romney's skills as a leader and organizer, but they also demonstrated the civic-service of tens of thousands of Mormons among the volunteers who hosted that international event on behalf of America. For the athletes and officials and fans who came for that event, the Mormons and their neighbors were the face of America. And their performance was one to make Americans proud of their fellow Americans in Utah. Why should they be afraid of the Mormon who led that shining American effort serving as their president, just because he is a Mormon?

Mormons have paid their dues as Americans. They pay their taxes, they defend the nation with their lives, they serve at every level of government. They respect the rights and freedoms of their fellow Americans. They have just as much right to run for president as any other honorable American citizen. And they have a right to not be discriminated against in the civic arena because of their religion.

No Mormon should be denied, because of his religion, the right to vote, the right to serve on a jury, the right to be commissioned in the Air Force, or the right to be elected to local, state or Federal office. And that includes the office of the President.

If anyone wants to deny Mormons the right to be elected president just because they are Mormons, then THEY, the deniers, are being un-American. They are breaching the American covenant, in which we promise each other we will give each other the full rights and respect of citizenship. They are violating their duty as Americans to uphold the Constitution, which enjoins us to not use religion to exclude anyone form public office, which prohibits us from penalizing anyone in the public sphere as punishment for exercising their religious freedom.

Mr. Colson knows this. He knows that if his fellow Evangelicals don't defend the right of Mormon citizens to exercise their full rights as Americans, the next people on the list of the totalitarian atheists will be the Evangelicals themselves!

I agree with Pete Bogardus. Gladys Knight for President! "I'm leaving, on the midnight train to Iowa, then Nevada, then New Hampshire/Wyoming!"

Why is this all the sudden such a big deal? Someone must think Romney is a for real candidate. That is a big surprise for the dems since they think they have 2008 in the bag. Then this guy Romney comes out of left field (or maybe right field but that does not sound as good). Is Romney going to give them a run for the money? We will see but somebody must be worried somewhere or we would not be having these nonsensical discussions about his religion.

It is an interesting paradox when anyone uses the term "clearly" in a theological discussion or debate concerning the Bible.

Mr. Colson takes the same evangelical approach that I have heard for years but still surprises me everyday. As Christians, we are here on Earth for several great purposes; one of those is to learn tolerance and love one another. I do not feel much tolerance coming from the so called "main stream Christians", they are far from mainstream, many evangelicals have missed the point of Christ's actual core message...which is about love and accepting one another. These arguments are pointless in the eyes of our Lord and Saviour.

Anonymous provides yet another (very respectable, I might add) definition of "Christian." By that definition, all churches include some members who are Christians and some who are not.

Hey Johnalex - try that test with *your* God and see who's sleeping.

I don't feel like anyone-no matter what their religion-can call themselves christian unless they are trying to live as Christ taught. Love your enemies, do good to those that hate you etc. Just a thought.

To those who have cited verses about other gods in the Old Testament, if you read the context, these stories are about how these "gods" were just stone images and not gods at all. For example the story of Elijah and the prophets of Baal is very enlightening at the end of I Kings and the beginning of II Kings. In that story he tells these prophets to call upon Baal to light a bunch of sticks with fire from the sky and then he sits and mocks the prophets of Baal. "Maybe your god is sleeping, maybe he's hard of hearing", etc. That is why Christians believe this is only one God as so clearly stated in the book of James. That is not to say as Paul wrote that there are not demonic powers and dominions and principalities out there.

I find this all a mix of funny and sad. Funny that there is so much mis-information and dis-information and sad at the same time. I guess most people will end up going to their reward before truly finding out what's what.

Nevertheless, I think we call all be happy with one presidential candidate: Some want a woman, some want an African/American, some want an entertainer (AAAhnold), some want a Mormon. Why don't we just write in a black, Mormon, female entertainer - Gladys Knight!

Lighten up and have a great day, and don't forget to love your neighbor!

Pete

A pastor I respect greatly once told me that any group that calls itself Christian but also teaches that the only way to salvation is through their particular brand of Christianity is at best misguided and at worst, a cult. Although I will admit I do not know a great deal about the Mormon church, I do believe they fit this description. I do not think they can be considered mainstream Christian because they will seek to convert you, even if you tell them you are already Christian. I have personally experienced this type of "recruitment". Granted, some fundamentalist Christians would probably try to "convert" me too. Perhaps they do not belong in the mainstream either.

Debating whether Mormons are Christian boils down to a question of semantics. Many people define "Christian" as someone who believes that God's truth is found only in the Bible. Mormons do not fit that definition; they believe in the Book of Mormon as well as the Bible (not to mention their belief in a prophet who lives today and continues to reveal God's truth). Others define it as referring to the Catholic Church and the many churches that have been splintered from it. Mormons do not fit that definition either. Others, looking to the components of the word itself, define it to mean someone who believes Jesus Christ is the way to salvation. Mormons absolutely fit that definition.

As a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (a Mormon) I thank you Lee! We do have much in common. Catholic, Protastant, Evangelical, Mormon or Jewish, we all have the same basic values. That is what should unite us as Americans. After all why did our forefathers come to America? Wasn't it for religious freedom? For a place where their children could grow up and be free to believe as they wished, for a place where they could expand the outlook of their future, where a man could speak his mind and not be thrown in prison. Where any young child could dream dreams and have them come true. Where a Quaker, Catholic, Jew, Protestant, Evangelical or yes even a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (Mormon) could become President of these United States of America.
Hopefully the people of The United States will judge a canidate on their merits and how they live their life rather than on which church they attend.

And your point being? I see a lot of areas of disagreement. I dis-agree with my Pastor and other members of my faith on more than one occasion. But, I am not going to say to them"Satan get thee behind me"! I see "sheeps in wolves clothing" in most of the TV preachers on today. Joesph Smith saw a lot of bickering & in-fighting in his day. He at least got on his knees to petition GoD! Don't get me wrong, Smith wrote and said a lot that I don't agree with.But he like everyone else here needed a Savior.He was just a man with the same weaknesses we all have in us.He wanted to worship God in truth. He sought out God. I don't know what he saw in that grove of trees that day long ago.But I don't believe he was in league with Satan. Read Joesph Smith's Articles of Faith. I have. I have also read The Book of Mormon.The spiritual message of the BOM is in harmony with the New Testament.I can't say that about some of the other LDS works but niether can I say that about Catholic dogma or various other Protestant writings.Finally, I believe that the Blood of Christ can overcome all of our differences.As long as we worship Him alone, this can be done.

It is not Mormon bashing to simply state the truth, and that is Christianity and Mormonism are two different religions.

Mormons rank the Book of Mormon on the same level as the Bible, Christians do not consider the Book of Mormon to be scripture nor Joe Smith to be a prophet.

Mormons believe God the Father to have a flesh and blood body, and that he became the Supreme Being in the universe over time by living a perfect life. Christians believe that God has always existed, is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow and became flesh only in the person of Jesus Christ.

Mormons believe Jesus and Satan were spirit brothers, Christians don’t.

Mormons believe Jesus bodily came to America. Christians don’t.

Mormons believe great civilizations existed on the American continent long ago, for which there is no archeological evidence. That’s not necessarily a Christian vs. Mormon point, it’s just part of the package they get by accepting everything Joe Smith wrote.

Mormons believe forgiveness of sins comes through works and Mormon baptism (a heavy emphasis on Mormon baptism) and that the dead can be given Mormon baptisms, thereby granting forgiveness of sins to ancestors. Christians believe forgiveness of sins is an act of grace by God and cannot be earned, nor do they believe in retroactively baptizing dead people.

Mormons believe a person can achieve a god like status in the next world by living an exemplary life in this world (fulfilling Mormon temple obligations) and can populate worlds with spirit children born of spirit wives. Christians don’t believe that they will populate worlds with spirit children in the next life.

The list goes on and on. There’s all sorts of stuff that only Mormons believe because those beliefs are spelled out only in what Mormons consider scripture. Those unique beliefs are counter to Christian beliefs: about the nature of God, the nature of Jesus, forgiveness of sins, the life hereafter and so on.

Mormons and Christians do not believe the same things, on a foundational level. Mormonism and Christianity are two different religions.

"And that, I submit, is indeed mainstream -- despite the fact that cheap rhetorical tricks and over-attention to tangential doctrinal matters can always be used to make Mormons seem odd."

Actually, what seems to me to make Mormons odd -- and, in fact, somewhat scary -- is their sacred rituals involving bed sheets and special, holy underwear.

Also, their notion that only men have any theological or spiritual significance.

Also, their conviction that women exist to serve men.

Also, the ugliness of their racial prejudices.

Also, all those awful old men who run the operation.

It's all pretty creepy.

Yes, it is true that all that is required to be saved is to call upon the name of the Lord as stated in Romans 10:13. But the Bible also tells us to be aware of false christ's, false prophets, wolves in sheep's clothing and
1 John 2:18 - 23 we are warned about the darkness of the enemy and how to test the spirits if they know Jesus or have made up a jesus of their own or have fallen prey to the false teachers.
God makes it real simple. In John 8:24, Jesus said if you do not believe who I am you will die in your sin. In other words without hope if you reject Him as the uncreated true and living God. It is not acceptable to simply say you believe in jesus the created spirit because the Holy Spirit makes it clear to all believers that Jesus is God who became flesh. In Hebrews 13:8 we are told that Jesus is the same yesterday, today and forever and that is only true of God and there is only one God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit who are uncreated as stated in-Isaiah 43:10- and have shared in perfect harmony their eternal and holy love and will impart this life transforming saving love by grace through faith to anyone who acknowledges their need to be saved who will freely receive this gift of God-Ephesians 2:8-9.
Compare the love of God as seen in Jesus receiving sinners to the false love of mormons who refuse to allow anyone but who they deem to be temply worthy into the LDS temples. The lds love to proclaim family unity but will not allow the unworthy to even watch the ceremony of a family member getting married. We are told in James 2:10 that he who sins in one point is guilty of all and in Romans 3:23 all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God and through this we who love the Lord know that we are only perfect in Christ by His shed blood. Gods love as stated in 1 Corinthians 13:4-8 never fails and keeps no records of wrongs but the mormon love says don't come in to our temple because we judge you and your are not temple worthy based on our standards. God says His children are perfect in Christ and being made holy as per
Hebrews 10:14.
Only the TRUTH in Christ can set your free
by the Triune God's amazing grace and mercy
Who in Jesus paid fully our sins penalty
to reject Him is to be lost for eternity!!!

kurt

As an Evangelical Christian, I am sick & tired of Mormon bashing from members of my faith. We have so much in common. Especially on matters of Judeo-Chritian values. That is what should unite us as Americans. And as Christians, the fact we all believe in Christs'Redemption on the cross. The New Testament is clear on what all of us must do to be saved! "Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, that God raised Him from the dead , and THOU SHALL BE SAVED".Mormons believe this.Evangelicals believe this.Catholics believe this.

ALL religion is a long way from the mainstream of reality.

Franklin writes:
"For instance, they believe there are many gods."

So what about all the gods in the Bible? Baal, Bel, Ashtoreth, and Molech? Are they not gods Chuck or do you not believe, contrary to your own god's words, that they exist?"

Right you are, Franklin. Why do Xians not know that the OT speaks of many rea; gods outside of Yahweh?:

Genesis 1:26
And God said, let us make man in our image.
Genesis 3:22
And the Lord God said, Behold, then man is become as one of us, to know good and evil.
Genesis 11:7
Let us go down, and there confound their language.
Exodus 12:12
And against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment.
Exodus 15:11
Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods?
Exodus 18:11
Now I know that the LORD is greater than all gods.
Exodus 20:3, 5
Thou shalt have no other gods before me. ... Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them.
Exodus 22:20
He that sacrificeth unto any god, save unto the LORD only, he shall be utterly destroyed.
Exodus 22:28
Thou shalt not revile the gods.
Exodus 23:13
Make no mention of the name of other gods, neither let it be heard out of thy mouth.
Exodus 23:24
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
Exodus 23:32
Thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor with their gods.
Exodus 34:14
For thou shalt worship no other god: for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God.
Numbers 33:4
Upon their gods also theLORD executed judgments.
Deuteronomy 6:14-15
Ye shall not go after other gods, of the gods of the people which are round about you;(For the LORD thy God is a jealous God among you)
Deuteronomy 10:17
For the LORD your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords.
Deuteronomy 28:14
Thou shalt not ... go after other gods to serve them.
Joshua 24:14
Fear the Lord ... and put away the gods which your fathers served.
Judges 11:24
Wilt not thou possess that which Chemosh thy god giveth thee to possess?
1 Samuel 6:5
Ye shall give glory unto the God of Israel: peradventure he will lighten his hand from off you, and from off your gods.
1 Samuel 28:13
And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
1 Chronicles 16:25
The Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.
Psalm 82:1
God standeth in the congregation of the mighty, he judgeth among the gods.
Psalm 82:6
I have said, Ye are gods.
Psalm 86:8
Among the gods there is none like unto thee, O Lord.
Psalm 96:4
For the Lord ... is to be feared above all gods.
Psalm 97:7
Worship him, all ye gods.
Psalm 136:2
O give thanks unto the God of gods.
Jeremiah 1:16
I will utter my judgments against them ... who have forsaken me, and have burned incense unto other gods.
Jeremiah 10:11
The gods that have not made the heavens and the earth, even they shall perish from the earth, and from under these heavens.
Jeremiah 25:6
And go not after other gods to serve them, and to worship them, and provoke me not to anger with the works of your hands; and I will do you no hurt.
Zephaniah 2:11
The Lord will be terrible to them: for he will famish all the gods of the earth.
John 10:33-34
The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
1 John 5:7
For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

BIGD,

Thanks for the response. Sorry for being a bit snotty.

A.T.

I am somewhat appalled that what should be a discourse concerning Mr. Colson's comments has turned into an attack on his character. Let's stick to the subject. Mr. Colson seems to be saying that although he does not agree with Romney's beliefs, he does not discount his ability to lead upon that basis. As someone who shares similar beliefs to Chuck, I personally would not be as comfortable, but I see his point.

I consider myself a Christian. I study the Bible to better understand God's word. I'm also Mormon and get a little weary of the gatekeepers who think they or their fellows at the Council of Nicea or other such extra-Biblical conventions own the name of Christ for themselves.

But I also read Chuck Colson and find most of his words congenial to my belief. I will continue reading him, despite a few oddities and strangenesses in his theology.

AT -

I do apologize to Chuck as I can not find any reference to this statement. To the contrary I find many nice comments of his. I do however find a large number of angry Protestants that are mad that he works with the Catholic Church. This might very well be the reason for the source I heard on Monday. Thank you for pointing out my mistake - that'll teach me to listen to that station again!

My sincere apologies if I am wrong - but that was a direct quote from a protestant radio station from two days ago. I'll check it out and see if I can find the source.

BIGD,

You're nuts. Chuck co-founded Evangelicals and Catholics Together, an organization dedication to demonstrating unity between the evangelical and catholic churches.

Ooops. Sorry to spoil your rant with facts.

A.T.

Henry -

He doesn't speak for mainstream? That's good because he has also been quoted as calling the Catholic Church the biggest Cult around, sending all its believers to hell.

So i would agree with you that I hope he doesn't speak for mainstream Christianity.

"I do not believe, nor should any Christian believe, that there should be a religious test of any kind for public office."

Well no one cares what you believe, you criminal. But interestingly enough, many share your view. Not only should no Christian believe that, but someone thought it important enough to put it in the Constitution. It's actually a law that there can't be a religious test to hold office.

Hey, maybe you do know the laws after all?

There is a vast difference between the Biblical Christan teachings and the Mormon faith. To act as though they are compatable is to be intellectually dishonest. The Mormon faith is a unique religion separate from the Christian faith.
This is not a critical statement, just a truthful one.

Chuck,

May I call you Chuck? I appreciate and share your willingness to view Mitt Romney based upon his morals and his politics, and not his religion. I also appreciate your comment that the LDS church is not mainstream Christianity. That is true, and the LDS church does not seek to become mainstream or traditional Christianity. Let me also say that I respect your beliefs and ask only for the same respect of my beliefs. A differing view does not mean disrespect. That said, the LDS church respectfully preaches a restoration of Christ's authority and church to the earth, and is thus the antithesis or direct opposite of mainstream Christianity.

I by no means seek to debate doctrine or scripture with you, but will cite some Bible sources that explain the LDS doctrines you mentioned--offered in the spirit of seeking mutual understanding:

- Other scriptures not within the Bible that contain the word of God: John 10:16; Ezekiel 37:15-20; also see Revelations 22:19, Deuteronomy 4:2, Proverbs 30:5-6, Matthew 5:19 (each author refers to their particular writings, which were written in different centuries, which were then compiled together centuries later in the Old and New Testaments)

- "Many Gods"; 1st Corinthians 8:5-6; John 1:1-2; Genesis 1:26 (God the Father and God the Son, individually separate beings, and we worship the Father by worshiping the Son, and no others--John 14:6)

- "Man with God from beginning": The LDS church teaches that Jesus Christ/Jehovah was the first born or created spirit of God the Father because He was with the Father from the beginning (John 1:1-2; 17:5; & 1st John 1:1). God has not revealed how soon or later after Christ that the spirits of men were created or born, but God does speak of before the earth was created as being "In the beginning" (Genesis 1:1). The Lord tells us that the spirits of men existed prior to the foundation or creation of the earth (Job 38:4; Ephesians 1:4). Thus, by comparing these Bible scriptures man was in the beginning with God.

- "Man's basic intelligence was not created by God and is as old as God's": this statement is a mis-characterization of Joseph Smith's statement. Man's basic intelligence is his spirit, which God the Father created. The LDS church teaches that God the Father used pre-existing intelligence and element to create spirit children. Does not an artist use pre-existing materials to create a piece of art? God the Father is the ultimate artist. Acceptance of this doctrine requires an acceptance of Joseph Smith as a prophet of the Lord Jesus Christ and the Book of Mormon as a record of the word of God, a companion scripture to the Bible.

I hope that my explanations have shed light on LDS church doctrines. However, these are my understandings, and not to be taken as official LDS church interpretations. For official LDS scriptural interpretations, see www.lds.org

Chuck, feel free to post scriptures which support the doctrines of your faith if you so desire.

Regards,
Joshua

"For instance, they believe there are many gods."

So what about all the gods in the Bible? Baal, Bel, Ashtoreth, and Molech? Are they not gods Chuck or do you not believe, contrary to your own god's words, that they exist?

Henry James,

What has come over you on this topic -- has someone recently done your temple work? :)

As an Ex-Christian AND an Ex-Mormon
let me say

It is LUDICROUS for Colson to represent himself as able or authorized to speak for the "mainstream of Christianity."

He does misrepresent Mormon beliefs.
He is crazy to think that the Evangelicals, who scandalously oppose Mormons running for office, are anywhere near the mainstream of America.

They are powerful and domineering, but do NOT represent fairminded people. Mormons are generally much more fair minded than Evangelicals.

Thank you Mr. Colson for being very clear about the importance of chosing a president by their values, rather than by their specific religion. I appreciate and respect your point of view.

Unfortunately, I have encountered a minority of 'christians' who believe that a Mormon, any Mormon, regardless of their values or their character, are unfit to run for president simply for the religion they follow.

Thank you for being "fair" on this important issue.

Thanks Ken,

I wanted to clarify the beliefs that we do share with the Christian world, but I didn't want my post to be too long. Your right, those beliefs are mainstream, but do you think we should try very hard to be seen as such? I think our genuine difference with mainstream Christianity is our strength not our weakness.

Mr. Colson takes the unfortunate approach of sensationalizing the beliefs of members of the Church of Jesus Christ. Yes, we believe that there happen to be a lot of gods that exist. So? We worship, however, only God the Father, his Son, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost. And that's it -- we don't worship, nor will we ever worship, nor have we ever worshipped, any God but the Christian, biblical, Godhead of Father and Son and Holy Ghost. And that, I submit, is indeed mainstream -- despite the fact that cheap rhetorical tricks and over-attention to tangential doctrinal matters can always be used to make Mormons seem odd.

Ken Kuykendall
MormonCentury.org

Mr. Colson,

Thank you for your short essay. I think you did well in asserting what you believe are major differences between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity, while at the same time respectfully affirming our dignity.

Though I consider myself a Christian, and completely dependant on the grace of Christ for salvation, I do not consider myself a "mainstream" Christian, nor do I hope for the day when I will be considered such.

We have honest differences which cannot be compromised. One which you mentioned is the belief in the Eternal nature of the human soul.

We lived with God before we were born. We were in the beginning with God. I think it is a glorious principle revealed by God himself.

For me, it solves many philosophical problems in mainstream Christianity. For example, if God can create anything out of nothing, why wouldn't He just create us in our saved condition?

Why all this pain and suffering? Why create many people, only to condemn them to Eternal Hell?

If "intelligence cannot be created" then we learn that God had to employ certain means to sanctify and prepare His children for Eternal Happiness. He couldn't just make us that way from the beginning. So He sent us here to earth so that through suffering, obstacles, moral choice, and dependence on the Savior, we could prepare for Eternal glory with Him.

It reconciles God’s power, and love with the conditions of this life.

I think the question was prompted by Helen Whitney's "The Mormons" which premered last night on PBS and explored a similar question

"I do not believe, nor should any Christian believe, that there should be a religious test of any kind for public office."

No, there shouldn't be a religious test for public office. There should be an aptitude test and a test on how well a candidate can seperate his/her personal religious views from their position as an elected public official.