Faith-Based Feminism: The Most Powerful Model

Inviting anyone who might be concerned to speak out on behalf of suffering Christians in India:

http://ncronline3.org/drupal/?q=node/2365

CCNL

You wrote, "Jesus, the simple preacher man, supposedly talked to the demons of the demented aka satans, changed water into blood and bread into flesh and rose from the dead."

There are demons but there is only one satan, I know satan is real since I have met satan.

It was wine not water that He changed into His Blood and yes it was bread that He changed into His Body and since it was revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus then yes I would have to go along with these.

I believe that He rose from the dead, even tho the only way that I have met Jesus, so to speak, is when the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus.

Then you wrote, " The money kept coming, the second coming did not and will not."

Do you really believe that life is only about money?

What's your rush?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas, god visionaire, mythical Moses, Baum,

Jesus, the simple preacher man, supposedly talked to the demons of the demented aka satans, changed water into blood and bread into flesh and rose from the dead. Actually it was the authors of the NT that added these paranormal elements to Jesus' life. See the many studies of the life of the historical Jesus and you will note that these events were all rated as embellishments to raise this simple guy to the realm of a deity in order to make him more competitive with the Caesar deities of Rome and a spinoff of the god of Jerusalem. The followers grew in number and the coffers of said authors overflowed with the promise of life everlasting and soon to come second coming of the simple preacher man. The money kept coming, the second coming did not and will not.

CCNL

You also wrote, "you embarrass yourself to such a degree that one wonders about your mental state."

This seems to put me in pretty good company doesn't it?

In the bible, whether or not it is in your version of the bible I do not know, there were those that questioned Jesus's "mental state" also weren't there?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Re: killing of innocent soul
The oft quoted Quranic verse : “We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. (quran 5:32)" is an adaptation of a Talmudic statement shown below.

“Whoever destroys a single life is as guilty as though he had destroyed the entire world; and whoever rescues a single life earns as much merit as though he had rescued the entire world. .”
The Talmud, Mishna. Sanhedrin

The author of the Talmud based their above statement on a typo in the Book of Genesis where it said “The bloods of your brother called out to me”. This was interpreted to mean the blood of all the descendents of the murdered Abel.

Astoria,

Quran doesnt state that if one innocent life is taken,it is as if the whole world is murder.This is fifth class kidding.Please...
You have Three mistakes;
1-It is valid absolutely only for muslim victim,not infidel/non-muslim.
2-It states *without cause/without reason*.There are always causes to murder someones.
3-The People of Book is one of,at least,fifty contrdiction in submission.Islam curses Trinity and Son of God.

Do you know Kashmir,the Land on Mountain.Are non-muslims being protecred in Kashmir ?
Is there Civilization or Man-Woman Equality on the mountain,Kashmir ?

Victoria, Victoria, Victoria,

What version of the Worst Book/SOP Ever Written are you reading??

Again, from the autobiography of Ayaan Hirsi Ali, Infidel, which shows the koran in action with respect to the "rights" of women:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.

some excerpts:

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam."

After editing out all the violence towards women in the koran which should take over a month of your time, we recommend you read the following about the casualities in Iraq:

http://news.nationaljournal.com/articles/databomb/index.htm

CCNL

You wrote, " When you say you talk to god and that you are the Moses of the NT".

I never said that I talk to God, what I have said is that God the Father came into my heart and I just knew that It was Him and that He didn't say a word, He didn't have to.

I have also said that God the Holy Spirit came into my body and He revealed to me that the Catholic Eucharist is Jesus but that He did not reveal that by words but that I just knew.

I don't know exactly how the Holy Spirit works in my life but I don't have to know, Jesus said that He would send the Holy Spirit to guide us into All Truth.

What I need to know, I will somehow come to know but I don't need to be a know-it-all nor have a desire to be a know-it-all.

As I have said previously, I use the pronoun He when speaking of God even tho God is not a He, a She nor an It but is a BEING OF PURE LOVE of course God-Incarnate, Jesus, was a Male.

I am the New Testament Moses, Moses is my confirmation name.

Have you ever heard of the unblemished Lamb and the guilty goat mentioned in the Old Testament?

Someone had to be me, it came as quite a surprize to me, to say the least, but like it says: "Remember I [God} have chosen you, you have not chosen Me", God chose, I said YES.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TBARKSDL

All murder of innocents in vile, no matter what faith one practices.
In the Qur'an it states quite clearly that if one innocent life is taken, it is as if the whole world is murdered.
No one would suggest inth name of Isalm any justification for such actions, as it is forbidden. We are commnaded to protect , sepcifically, the people of the book which includes christians.

Just as it would be ridiculous to come in an suggest that all Americans apologize for the 600,000 innocent BABIES and CHILDREN under 5 years old- who died as a direct result of the sanctions against Iraq for 13 years- above and beyond what are normal statistical deaths in that region (sources-Lancet Report and World Health Organization)
so it is ridiculous to try to turn the conversation to finger pointing and blaming-
It is not the purpose of this thread- the purpose of this thread isa to inform folks about what Islam advocates for women.
It is the first religion to give equal rights to women in the world-
The first one- and those rights were so far ahead of their time that we were catching up 100 years ago in America.
And they are still being examined and reformed in light of a less patriarchal world which women hve fought against oppression from-

You are welcome to stay and learn and discuss.

TBARKSDL
OnFaith is a blog dedicated to promoting understanding between differing faiths.
In order to understand, one has to be open to learning.
Daisy provided an excelllent example for you to draw from.
To come here and expect apologies for actions not taken by the people here- is not reasonable.
Besides, the wave of christian killings - in the thousands now- in India are being perpetrated by Hindus, not Muslims.
Google Orissa.

Thomas, god talking and Moses of the NT, Baum

The reality is that god does not talk to you and Moses was a mythical figure in the OT. When you say you talk to god and that you are the Moses of the NT, you embarrass yourself to such a degree that one wonders about your mental state.

CCNL

You wrote, "You are an embarrassment to reality!!!!".

I take that as your version of reality and I thank you for the compliment.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Abhab,

I do apologize. I must read all comments more carefully.

CCNL;
You misunderstood my post. I merely quoted a comment of a reader to an article written in Aljazeera newspaper to demonstrate to Daisy that Islam and Muslims do not believe in equality between the genders.

I suppose it would be too much--just pie-in-the-sky dreaming--to ask whether Daisy Khan and all the other Muslim apologists in this forum are going to get around to writing a commentary on the wave of Muslim killings of Christians in Iraq and India. Just because the Pope has raised an alarm about the massacres, I suppose, is no reason to believe the matter is any big deal. After all, writing about the killings of Christians at the hands of Muslims would detract from Ms. Khan's, et.al., mission in life to remind us over and over that American Christians do not understand Islam and, therefore, fail to understand its benign nature. I mean, what’s the death of a few hundred Christians at the hands of Muslim mobs, or the fact that millions of Muslims are able to freely practice their religion in the United States, measured against the fact that some unspecified number of Americans equate Islam with terrorism?

A salaamu alaikum and welcome Ghulam.

Ashab, Ashab, Ashab,

You are following the dictates of a warmongering, hallucinating, illiterate, warmongering long-dead Arab. It is time for Muslims to enter the New World and also the 21st Century by editing out all the idiocy of the koran, the Worst Book/SOP ever written. Get back to us when the editing is finished. Until then, stay in your cave.

Ms. Khan - a well written and most enlightening column.

"Yet, we must be careful to avoid conflating Islam and its core teachings on women with the actions of some Muslims"

Unfortunately - most religions have this problem. The core teachings get overshadowed by the behavior of those who abuse the power their religion gives them.

From Aljazeera regarding” a news item in today’s issue titled “Women in Morocco asking for Equal Inheritance.”

فيصل السردي
جدل بالمغرب حول مطالبة نسائية بالمساواة في الإرث

أن جمعية حقوق المراءة وجمعية حقوق الانسان ما هي الا جمعيات عميلة تريد فقط مجادلتنا في النصوص القرانية والطعن فيها. كيف تطالب بمساواة المراءة مع الرجل في الميراث وهو موجود في القران بنص صريح وواضح وانا اطلب من اي شخص لا تعجبة قوانيين الاسلام ان يهاجر الى بلاد الغرب حيث الرجال يطالبون بمساواتهم مع النساء حيث ان المراءة تفعل ما تشاء دون اذن زوجها او سؤالة. يجب اغلاق كل هذة المكاتب العميلة حقوق انسان وحقوق حيوان وجمعية مراءة وحقوق دجاج

The above is a reader comment:
Women’s rights groups as well as human rights groups are merely treacherous groups that wish to argue with us regarding the Quranic verses and to abrogate them. How are we expected to equate women with men in inheritance when the Quran has a clear command in this regard? I call for whoever is dissatisfied with the Muslim laws to emigrate to the West where men are asking for equality with women, and where women do what they wish without their husbands’ permission. All those "rights” offices for women, animals and chickens should be closed.

Daisy says:
“I do not blame people for this misconception because I recognize that the ignorance or misinterpretation of Islam frequently results in the discrimination and disempowerment of women.”

The truth that women in Arabia had more liberty and authority before Islam than after it can also be evinced from the fact that Khadijah, the Prophet’s first wife had a business of her own and had many men at her service. Muhammad, in fact was but one of her employees. Do we have any tale of women after Islam, running their own business and hiring men to work for them?

Bukhari Volume 2, Book 24, Number 541:
Narrated Abu Said Al-Khudri
He (Mohammad) delivered the sermon and ordered the people to give alms. He said, "O people! Give alms." Then he went towards the women and said. "O women! Give alms, for I have seen that the majority of the dwellers of Hell-Fire were you (women)."

Q.4:34
those on whose part you fear desertion, admonish them, and leave them alone in the sleeping-places and beat them.
Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 33:
Narrated Usama bin Zaid:
The Prophet said, "After me I have not left any affliction more harmful to men than women."
Other of Mohammad’s sayings.
"To find a good woman among women is similar to finding a white crow among a hundred crows."
"The marriage commitment is a kind of slavery for women."
"Women are deficient in intelligence and faith."
"If anybody has been required to prostrate before others beside God, the woman should prostrate before her husband."
Some Sharia based rules:
“A man can marry up to four women and indefinite number of concubines. A woman cannot marry more than one.”
“A man can divorce his wife or wives, a woman cannot.”
“A woman inherits half a brother’s share and her testimony when accepted counts for half a man.”
“A woman alleging rape has to come up with four male witnesses, otherwise she will be charged with prostitution.”

Does any of this convey a sense of equality for women in Islam?

Well said Daisy. I think however that the American public needs to be educated about Islam. So often, people are quoting Ayaan Hirsi and ignoring faithful and educated Muslim womens views. Too often people have developed critical analysis out of Salman Rushdies fictional writings, than factual findings of academics and social activists. Your task is going to be difficult because our faith comes unders such baseless but spurious attack.

Humanity has much to be grateful for from the Muslim civilisations output, yet many still find it meaningful to reframe the discussion within an absolute civilisationary discourse. InshaAllah your applied efforts and your Eemaan will carry your good works forward.

Thomas, god talker, Baum,

You are an embarrassment to reality!!!!

Please God open this woman to the truth of islam, what it is, what it means and what it is doin to the poor misguided women who fall into it's trap of hate, human rights abuse and violence for the slightest infractions; oh by te way if your islamic and female you have a really strong reasoning for not allowing yourself to be raped, because it will be you on trial for your very life and oh yeah your testimoney is only worth that of half a man and you most likely will be found guilty on the men's testimony and found guilty of not being raped but adultry because you truly did in all islamic men's eyes ask for what you got and deserve to die for it. The truth hurts but it is only the truth, research it and try not to get sick as you read over and over again of the violence, injustice and just plain uncaring of women in this sick ideology. What was that movie of ages ago; "They Shoot Horsed Don't They. The female is most likely in an islamic court to be of less value than that very horse spoken of.

Women in islam have absolutely no right or equality. There is nothing in the teaching of islam about women except the fact that they are to be treated respectfully as you would your beloved dog, your profitable cow or your useful horse. You will beat your wife to keep her in line and you will not go out of the house except when covered and you will not in any way be allowed to associate with or travel with men withoug someone, family member watching over you. Seeing any human rights for women in the teachings of islam in the quran/koran, hadith or the current relevant teachings of respected islamic scholars is non-existent especially when consider the fact of obrigation making any and all religion of peace, non-violent and women respecting teachings osolete from mohammed's move of his followers from Mecca to Medina. If you fail to understand this fact and lost teachings due to obrigation, do some research on the history and teachings of islam and mohammed in relationship with the term obrigation.

ASIZK AND THE REST OF HUMANITY

I have met God and God is a Trinity.

The Catholic Eucharist is Jesus, just like He said, the Holy Spirit revealed this to me.

God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE.

The god of islam goes balistic if you say that Jesus is God-Incarnate, which Jesus Is.

The god of islam also goes balistic if you say that God is a Trinity and yet God is One, even tho God is a Trinity and yet is One.

What more needs to be said and by the way, The True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

I am just a messenger and God's Plan is for ALL OF HUMANITY to be with Him in His Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

We have free will and it is up to each and every one of us what we do with that free will and we will all go thru judgement, but what some do not seem to believe, and some do not seem to want it to be, is that Divine Justice and Divine Mercy go hand in hand.

Just because the god of islam wishes to call God-Incarnate his prophet does not make it true.

If God wanted us to be robots, He would have made us robots, if God wanted us to be puppets on a string, He would have made us puppets on a string, if God wanted us to be parrots, he would have made us parrots, but God wanted us to have free will and with the capacity for thought and reason to be able to decide freely what we will do, that is why He made us in His Image and Likeness.

Since God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE then if Love is shining thru then one could say that God is shining thru and if not then He isn't.

Also, Jesus asked His followers to, "Come follow Me", He did not ask them to follow the bible, the Word became "Flesh" which is Jesus, the bible didn't.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

From Sir Salman Rushdie's book "Satanic Verses", p. 376, paperback issue - for those 1 billion Muslims to read as they are forbidden to purchase or read said book:

an excerpt:

"The faithful lived by lawlessness, but in those years Mahound - or should one say the Archangel Gibreel? - should one say Al-Lah? - became obsessed by law.

Amid the palm-trees of the oasis Gibreel appeared to the Prophet and found himself spouting rules, rules, rules, until the faithful could scarcely bear the prospect of any more revelation, Salman said, rules about every damn thing, if a man farts let him turn his face to the wind, a rule
about which hand to use for the purpose of cleaning one's behind.

It was as if no aspect of human existence was to be left unregulated, free. The revelation - the recitation- told the faithful how much to eat, how deeply they should sleep, and which sexual
positions had received divine sanction, so that they leamed that sodomy and the missionary position were approved of by the archangel, whereas the forbidden postures included all those in which the female was on top.

Gibreel further listed the permitted and forbidden subjects of conversation, and earmarked the parts of the body which could not be scratched no matter how unbearably they might itch. He vetoed the consumption of prawns, those bizarre other-worldly creatures which no member of the faithful had ever seen, and required animals to be killed slowly, by bleeding, so that by experiencing their deaths to the full they
might arrive at an understanding of the meaning of their lives, for it is only at the moment of death that living creatures understand
that life has been real, and not a sort of dream.

And Gibreel the archangel specified the manner in which a man should be buried, and how his property should be divided, so that Salman the Persian got to wondering what manner of God this was that soundedso much like a businessman.

This was when he had the idea that
destroyed his faith, because he recalled that of course Mahound himself had been a businessman, and a damned successful one at that, a person to whom organization and rules came naturally, so
how excessively convenient it was that he should have come up with such a very businesslike archangel, who handed down the management decisions of this highly corporate, if noncorporeal, God."

Comments from all the peace-loving, tolerant Muslims out there???

And Hirsi Ali lied to save her life as she explains in her autobiography. She went to the USA to escape the Muslim assassins in Holland as she also explains in her book.

"the controversy became violent when Mohammed Bouyeri, a member of the Hofstad Group, murdered Van Gogh in an Amsterdam street on November 2, 2004. A letter pinned to Van Gogh's body with a knife was primarily a death threat to Hirsi Ali."

halozcel1 & CCNL:

U have cut/pasted and recycled over and over again the same cheap and false unsubstantiated propaganda for so long-regulars on this forum know you well and don't bother to even glance at your garbage. Am only alerting new blogers to your trivailities. U even and always pretend to know more about Islam than Muslims!!!!!

So how about enlightining us about your own religion in case you have one and what it has to say about women. If ISlam is all wrong then go ahead and tell us what is right:what does your religion has to say about all issues presented on this forum. I challebge u.

Astoria,

Islam doesnt advocate equality and respect for all,race,gender.
Man excels woman.
Muslim excels non-muslim/infidel.
Son excels daughter.
Jews are cursed.
Chineses(yellow race) are described as *dangerous people*
Submission doesnt respect Christianity.Submission curses Trinity and Son of God.
There was *slave trade* in islamic countries till end of nineteenth century.

Calvinjking06,

If they are the Practices of muslims,not teaching of islam,who critisizes islamic republic Iran,Saudia,Malaysia,Kashmir about *these horrible practices* ?
There was Cleopatra in Egypt 2000 years ago.Submission invaded Egypt,Cleopatra gone and bogeywoman came in twentyfirst century.
Is this *my faith unequivocally declares my equal value as a woman* ?
Submission is the name of the Cult in Kashmir,nothing else.
Submission is the name of belief in islamic republic Iran and saudia,nothing else.

Ayaan Hirsi Ali is firmly in the pocket of the American Enterpise Istitute now- and is obediently towing the party line of her new gravy train.

Enough about her- CCNL has been posting that same troll repsonse for a year now.

In America, women couldn't even own property until 1920.
Islam advocates equality and respect for all, race, gender, you name it.

The world is more patriarchal than not-
blame men- not the religion.

Asım,

Would you please show any islamic country where *men and women with full equality* exist.
*Deep respect*.
Man can scourge woman.Is this *deep respect* ?
*Love*
Does submission/islam know what Love is ?
Man will take four women and there will be love between one man and four women.
Are there *Kindness* and *compassion* in islamic republic Iran,Saudia,Malaysia and Kashmir ?
Is there *man-woman equality* in Kashmir ?

Thanks Daisy for an articulate piece on this important issue-thou it does not,in this limited space,do justice to it.

The Quran and the Sunnah of the Prophet are full of legistlation and examples of how just and progressive Islam is when it comes to Muslim women.

The Prophet pbuh highlighted the vitality and importance of WOMEN in his last Farewell Sermon حجة الوداع
on Mount Arfat in Mecca.

The life of the Prophet was the example par excllence of how women should treated:as partners with deep respect,love,kindness and compassion.

Musilm women played essential part of and contributed so much to Islam:Ayasha recited and passed on 2100 Hadiths directly from the Prophet which are Sunnah,the second most important source of Islamic Law.

Yet you still have ignorant haters on this form who tell you :" what you said is practices and teachings from the Quran!!!!!!"

In so many vereses, the Quran addressess "the faithful men and women" with full equality.

CCNL,

All of the examples your provided relate to the PRACTICES OF MUSLIMS, not the teachings of Islam. These horrible practices do not contradict Ms. Khan's contention: "my faith unequivocally declares my equal value as a woman." No doubt, the mistreatment of women should be combated, but why have you equalized some Muslims' behavior with the religion? We don't do this with any other religion, so why has it become so acceptable with Islam?

Furthermore, Hirsi Ali has been largely discredited. Her political connections to an American government that is also culpable for the suffering of women (do the women of Baghdad or Kabul have the energy to worry about women's issues?) smacks of self-interest. Her efforts to “prove” Islam’s incompatibility with women’s rights only harm those women who are seeking change and justice within an Islamic context. They allow others to unfairly label these efforts as imperialist (like her). She's already proven her credibility on the issue by seeking asylum in Holland on the false grounds of forced marriage. She lied about her own oppression to get a visa. She's certainly not beyond promoting a perspective or ideology for her own gain.

Daisy,

You noted:

"On the contrary, my faith unequivocally declares my equal value as a woman. Islam instituted revolutionary change in women's status and rights. "

Apparently, you have not read Ayaan Hirsi Ali's autobiography, Infidel. And why haven't you?

To get you started, a brief review of the autobiography and some excerpts showing the real Islam and its oppression of women:

"Thus begins the extraordinary story of a woman born into a family of desert nomads, circumcised as a child, educated by radical imams in Kenya and Saudi Arabia, taught to believe that if she uncovered her hair, terrible tragedies would ensue. It's a story that, with a few different twists, really could have led to a wretched life and a lonely death, as her grandmother warned. But instead, Hirsi Ali escaped -- and transformed herself into an internationally renowned spokeswoman for the rights of Muslim women."
ref: Washington Post book review.

four excerpts:

p. 47 paperback issue:

"Some of the Saudi women in our neighborhood were regularly beaten by their husbands. You could hear them at night. Their screams resounded across the courtyards. "No! Please! By Allah!"

p.68:

"The Pakistanis were Muslims but they too had castes. The Untouchable girls, both Indian and Pakistani were darker skin. The others would not play with them because they were untouchable. We thought that was funny because of course they were touchable: we touched them see? but also horrifying to think of yourself as untouchable, despicable to the human race."

p.309

"Between October 2004 and May 2005, eleven Muslim girls were killed by their families in just two regions (there are 20 regions in Holland). After that, people stopped telling me I was exaggerating."

p. 347

"The kind on thinking I saw in Saudi Arabia and among the Brotherhood of Kenya and Somalia, is incompatible with human rights and liberal values. It preserves the feudal mind-set based on tribal concepts of honor and shame. It rests on self-deception, hyprocricy, and double standards. It relies on the technologial advances of the West while pretending to ignore their origin in Western thinking. This mind-set makes the transition to modernity very painful for all who practice Islam."

We await your rebuttal!!!!

*If God had desired to exclude women from equal relationship with the Divine and essential participation in fashioning human societies,GOD WOULD HAVE CREATED AN ALL-MALE HUMANİTY*

Ooo,My God,please,procet my mind.
Which Logic....,what mentality....

God(not God,Allah) has not created *an all-male* Humanity,so,it means/proves *women and men are equal*

Dr.M.Akram Nadwi demonstrates how OVER EIGHT-THOUSAND(what a number) prominent Muslim women scholars SHAPED EARLY ISLAMIC THOUGHT.

Dear Daisy Khan,

Please,please,dont misunderstand me,and please,no offend,but,it is a WORLD RECORD.Yes,World Record of Palaver and Myth.