Muslims Must Demand Free Speech

I agree wholeheartedly. "Good" (read that "non-violent") Muslims -- especially in the West -- have really dragged their feet on speaking up. I fear it's because they happen to be more tolerant of others faith -- and that's good. But they are tacitly approving of radical terrorism for the sake of Allah. God help us! To explore this area, as I have the past several months, can make you really realize how uncompromising extremists are on this point. And they don't mind dying to make their point -- and taking out hundreds if not thousands in the process. ... Are other Muslims even listening?

"Muslims Must Demand Free Speech"

Don't hold your breath.

Dear Moody,

I have a question for you as a non-Muslim. Actually several...

How is it that you murder innocent people up all the time, murder each other all the time, riot all the time (like in Paris or over teddy bears or over cartoons) make head chop videos - for that matter consider head chopping to be a public spectacle, abuse women (no particular rights, rape victims get lashes, scraping out clitori), have a pathological fear of feminine expression or sexuality, execute homosexuals and generally remind the world that you will blow up at the drop of a hat, AND you expect us to believe that you are somehow nice, peaceful people?

Islam recognizes no other religious group as having any equal status in society. Why should we be tolerant of you, if you are not tolerant of us?

Also, if you hate America so much, why are you here? Please go back to the tenth century and leave us alone.

All possible kind of questions asked by non muslims about Islam answered on below web site:
http://www.irf.net/irf/faqonislam/index.htm

No matter how The Obfuscating Jihadists, Thomas the "god seer" Baums et al present their religions, it all comes down to the basic formation of said religions and the historic reality and flaws in said formations. Who stole what movies and music from whom, whose missionairies forced conversions on what "godless" tribes, Moody gibberish, and other verbal screams and accusations are irrelevant in the scheme of foundation reality.

Scroll up to see once again that the only "religious reality" is:

DO NO HARM and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

And we do not need the biographers of some long dead, illiterate, warmongering Arab, or the biographers of some long dead, illiterate, Jewish preacher man/carpenter/peasant or the fictional characters of the OT or Joe Smith, the "Mormon-con" on how to accomplish this as it is just simple rationality!!!!

Dear Moody,

I do not normally like to dance with a net troll as vile as you are, but, I must say that your screeds are amongst the most insane, misinformed and demented I have ever seen. Really, reading your words is like looking at a train wreck. One knows he is staring at a dangerous tragedy, yet one can not help but be fascinated.

I wish to compliment you on your insanity. It is remarakable that one so delusional can still type.

LMAO

You are right!
Millions of people are getting killed for the amusment and pleasure of SUPERIOR APES RACE for quit long now.

Others should accept it by now. SOME HOW THEY DON'T?

LMAO,

This is also another reality eye opener:

CHAOS & CONSPIRACY THEORY OF WEST IN PRACTICE & PARTICULARLY OF USA:

To the great fan and admirer CCNL
Of
USA masters "FATHER OF ALL DEVILS”?
Rightly said by Iranian President before US mad bushy bush use the words axe.o.e.

AND below is the kind of LIBRATION AND FREEDOM your SECULAR, CAPTILIST, DEMOCARTE, CORPORATE MONSTOR ADMINISTRATION ESTABLISHMENT is providing to the world NOW for more than half century. YOU ARE SO PROUD OF.

GREEDY INTOLRENT ANIMALS!!!!!

CCNL & ALL the blood bath Admirers:

Now the World is fully aware of USA
1- Pentagon military organization "Chaos Theory" all over the world to support its Weapon Industry with more than 18000 fighter plans and more than 1800 war ships IN SERVICE which ALONE IS BIGGEST THEN THE REST OF THE WORLD WEAPON INDUSTRIES & ARMS IN SERVICE COLLECTIVELY including Russia, China, India, Europe, NATO etc. And responsible of supplying illegal weapons all over the world FUELING ALL KIND OF BLOOD SHED ESPECIALLY IN CONTINENT OF AFRICA & MIDDLE EAST.
2- And USA White House civilian government "Conspiracy theory" to support its advances to control world resources.
Your and your Govt. credibility SUCKS.
Liars and conspirers!!!
Your pentagon driven Media conspires and All US dumb heads do is just follow the media slogans.
For example:
YOU and your stupid Bushy Bush call Iran Exe of Evil.
If some body with the slightest sense analysis. IRAN HAS NEVER SHOWN AGGRESSION WITH ANY BODY IN LAST 250 YEARS. It was puppet Saddam of Iraq who attacked Iran on his USA bushy master administration behalf.
IRAN HARDLY HAS ANY AIR FORCE & NAVY.
But USA mad administrative dogs talk about what if Iran will acquire nuck. They haven't yet.
This reason is so STUPID. The question is....
What about Pakistan already nuclear with ability to deliver.
What about Korea WHO THREATEN US RIGHT AT ITS FACE, what about Russia.
What about Mad Israel. Which is REAL THREAT WITH NUCKS to the whole Muslim world. If one look according to the MAD USA ADMINISTRATION PROSPECTIVE!!!
IT IS AGAIN PENTAGON + WHITE HOUSE driven Chaos and Conspiracy theory by Zionist controlled Media and stupid US masses again ONLY REPEATING media words like axe of evil, shia sunni, Iran Arabs bla bla bla without putting any burden OR strain on there brains to once try to think REALISTICLY, same way like they believed in there Tyrant Rulers when there Rulers bluntly lied about EVERY THING to attack Iraq and Afghanistan.

Sunni and Shia are living peacefully side by side ALL OVER THE WORLD.

Even in more than 8 year Iran and Iraq war raged by USA Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet. There was NO UNREST in Iraqi civil fabric. NO ONE was attacking the establishment in the Iraq; No kind of CIVIL DESTRUCION was in progress, raping, killing, bomb blasting CIVILIANS BEORE THE US ANIMALS INVASION was in progress.
It is the same 300 YEARS OLD COLONIAL divide and ruthless rule technique PRACTICED BY the US animals, kill the Shia blame the Sunni, kill the Sunni blame the Shia FUEL THE FIRE AND KILL CIVILIANS INDESCRIMINATELY in the name of collateral damage.
THE WHOLE WORLD AND MUSLIMS ARE VERY WELL AWARE OF IT.

Kuwait war was again raged by USA ANIMAL Bushy Administration Iraqi puppet.

In Bosnia and Kosovo case, YOU ANIMALS kept your CRIMNAL SILENCE FOR 2-3 YEARS until YOUR butchers were done and satisfied with there Muslim slaughter. YOU ANIMALS couldn't bear the Muslim independent state on your European Continent. Saving them after you are done and satisfied is a big B.S.!!

I REPEAT !!

If you and your KIND are not deaf OR blind??

Since millions & millions of Shia's are welcome by Saudi Sunni's every year on Hajj from the very beginning of time. AND millions & millions of Shia's and Sunni's perform Hajj TOGETHER STANDING SHOULDER TO SHOULDER every year DISPITE OF PENTAGON DRIVEN EVIL MEDIA PROPAGANDA!!

Saudia is a land of PEACE!

Hurray! Pentagon "Chaos Theory".

Don't worry, if needed, Saudi's will use these 60B arms from US on Israel. Since they are not in war with Iran or Shia's from the time Saudia came into being. (IF NEEDED means, if Fascist Israel ever tried to also show its aggression towards Saudis)

LMA0,

Statistically
-more than 1 million Iraqi's are been butchered so far
-more than 4 million displaced.
-All major cities are destroyed. No electricity, no water, no sanitation no NOTHING.

On Al Jazeera net Analyst’s are

THANKING USA (Chaos & Conspiracy Masters) for,

1- Alienating millions of the Sunnis from the US established only Shia government.

2- And then branding them ALL SUNNI CIVILIANS as allies of Bathiest Previous (US breed & Groomed) Dictator. And projecting that idea through out world through its Zionist controlled media.
3- In result PROVOKING THE US MADE SHIA ESTABLISMENT to genocide Sunni civilians “AND OFFICIALLY KEEPING CRIMINAL SILENCE SUPPORTING AND PROVIDING WEOPENS”. (On Al Jazeera net Analyst’s comments).

WELL DONE USA MONSTOROUS MASTERS.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK; YOUR DAYS ARE ACCOUNTED FOR.

Your stupid look bushy bush president recently visited Middle East and was trying to sell the same evil propaganda.

He thinks like him the world is filled with blinds and fools!!!!

No wonder WHY now the extremely abused women EVEN preferring to blow them selves up after all the humility, WHO USED TO BE LIVING PIOUS AND RIGHTIOUS LIVES.

FOR ABUSED WOMEN REFERENC YOU CAN SEE USA TORTURE CELL SNAPS & MOVIES ALL OVER ELECTRONIC MEDIA.

Moody, poor moody,

You manage to disparage evolutionary biology, put in a hint of Holocaust denial and make the claim that life as a Dhimmi was a good thing.

You are a truly magnificent specimen of derangement.

It is precisely because of people like you - (why are you even bringing Jews up? - this article is about Muslims, using innocent Muslim women as bombs to murder other Muslims in the name of the Religion of Peace!) that there needs to be a State of Israel and a war on terror.

I suppose you now will make some claim about your being a giant here too... Go ahead, it is amusing.

Moody, poor moody,

You manage to disparage evolutionary biology, put in a hint of Holocaust denial and make the claim that life as a Dhimmi was a good thing.

You are a truly magnificent specimen of derangement.

It is precisely because of people like you - (why are you even bringing Jews up? - this article is about Muslims, using innocent Muslim women as bombs to murder other Muslims in the name of the Religion of Peace!) that there needs to be a State of Israel and a war on terror.

I suppose you now will make some claim about your being a giant here too... Go ahead, it is amusing.

GARYD:

The whole Jewish race was murdered only by SUPERIOR WHITE MONKEY (according to brilliant western scholars) RACE.

While white monkeys (according to your brilliant scholars) keep murdering them through out centuries, THEY LIVED & FLOURISH HAPPILY under Muslim rule more than 800 years. BOTHER to look history of Spain.

And not just Jews but all races and religions. Still more than 150 million Coptic Christians are living in Middle East from the beginning of Islam.

A solid proof that Islam is not spread by sword "unlike Christianity" but by winning the hearts and minds by its simple truth.

---“The reason Israeli Jews “imitating” white monkeys (according to western scholars) basically is because they also belong mostly from same lands and behaving same way like VIOLENT OCCUPIERS.”---

Dear Mr. Daniel in the LIon's Den :

I can understand your ANXIETY. The only reason is it’s not my mother tongue. But still it is English, not German, French or Arabic. Pardon my poor grammar and other mistakes. Though the simple meanings of what I’m trying to address are very clear and my poor grammar is not really affecting the purpose or the over all meanings.

You can try,
READING IT SLOWLY. IT MIGHT ENABLE YOU TO DIGEST!!!

Petitions to try and help Mr. Kambakhsh have been started on the internet.

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=25199

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/article775954.ece

www.petitiononline.com/af8f6912/petition.html (you will have to cut/paste)

Please sign and spread as far as you can. Hopefully we can help get Mr. Kambakhsh a pardon or a reduced sentence

Jihadist,
Your madrassah education is showing. I did not call you a "dearie". Read and try to learn about expressions. You can call me what ever you like or do not like. I am simply stating a fact that Taqqiya and kitman are part of well known Islamic techniques, and I would not expect you to understand about "level of discussion" anyway, sweetums (and now I have called you sweetums).
There we go again, trying to mislead. I told you the Quran sends the kafirs to hell and one does not have to refer to the ahdeet. Instead of answering that directly, you give a song and dance about christians. Ask the christians about that. And as an ex-muslim I know about your "face of Allah" crap and it does not wash. Quote the verse if you like and then I can show the Kafirs here your pathetic attempt to obfuscate. Go ahead produce the verse so everyone can see how quickly you stoop to deceive.

Lying in the path of Allah is not and has never been a transgression for Muslims. Tell someone who does not know. Ha, so you know little about sufis. Start with Al-Hajj, and then march down the history. Muslims blew up muslims, and they quote the quran to arrive at "warped justification" but that is what the muslims have always done. What did Aiesha say when she decided to war against Ali?

Primacy on Hadiath about kill who insults the prophet ... because you implied in your last post that somehow I was pulling that out of thin air and trying to flatter myself. Primacy on Hadiath because your Quran is nonsense with the background provided by the hadiath. Nearly all tafsirs rely heavily on the hadiath to make sense of the jumbled mess of the Quran.

LoL! Ibn Warraq calls himself a cultral muslim. Ofcourse I care. It took me years to escape the clutches of your death cult. Ex-muslim does not capture the experience. I do not care whether muslim choose another religion or not, but I do care deeply that the freedom to speak freely about Islam, to tell the facts about Muhammad and the Quran, are not compromised. Let the muslim who want to remain in the death cult remain so, for that is his or her wish. What I do care is that those who do not want to remain within are not "compelled to" and then lied to with "there is no compulsion in Islam" crap. We are talking about an Afghani sentenced to die because he chose to be an atheist, and he wanted to distribute some essay on Islam by an iranian.

Kafirs need to know about Islam because of the demands that Islam imposes on the Kafirs. Canadian Human rights commission is trying to silence couple of kafirs for having published an examination of Islam which hurt the feelings of a poor imam. And that is only one of simple issues. The europeans are starting to deal with the ever increasing demand of the muslims,,, you do know that Islam is a deen, a complete way of life, and just a religion. And in that deen the kafirs have an eventual role only as a subjugated dhimmi, and this they should know with clarity. Whether it is dhimmi copts of Egypt or snatching corpses of non-muslims by the religious mullahs of Malaysia, or the spitting on crosses by the muttawa of saudi arabia, or the statue blowing taliban of pakistan, the eventual position of the kafir in muslim society is always the same.

And what do you think the Kafirs are doing if not trying to drag the muslims into the 21st century? What was that kafir teacher who ended up facing a possible death sentence for not knowing that children could not name a teddy bear, Muhammad? How many Kafir doctors do you want to see who do actually go to work among the muslims? Why does education on Islam have to preclude any "secular" education? Why do you assume either or about it?

The accurate term is Muhammadan. You can call yourself whatever you like. Those who follow Muhammad and emulate his Sunnah are Muhammadans. Muslim is a very inaccurate definition for someone who does not believe that there is an Allah. When and if I am convinced that there is an Allah who the humans can submit to then it would make sense to use "muslim". I do use muslim often but only as a substitute for Muhammadan. Islam is an ideology, and that is a simple fact. It is an ideology that teaches hate for the non-muslim, it is as V.S.Naipaul correctly identified .. arab imperialism pretending to be a religion.

"I've never been (to hell). Want to come along?"

Thanks Jihadist- but as an American unbeliever I'll have to decline your offer. But you can still GTH in a handbasket- don't let me stop you : )

And thanks for provoking AKafir into educating me on Islamic history and belief. Like most Americans- I knew little to nothing about Islam and Mohommed. AKafirs skillful questioning has inspired me to read the history of Mecca- Battle of Badr, the Battle of Uhud and the Battle of the Trench. Something anyone who is interested can easily google.

Music for your trip!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Niefy-PjIo

Bye-Bye!

Hello GaryD

Thanks for your response.

Muslims and Americans are reading, listening and watching different sources of information. I would not call it delusion, but rather, different perceptions formed on the same events. Not for the better.

Thanks and best regards

"J"

Jihadist thanks for your input. Frankly I am already too aware of the delusions under which all too many followers of Islam and not a few American leftist operate. We are in Iraq and Afghanistan for but one reason and one reason only Osama and the Taliban and Saddam Hussein left us no other choice. And no, I am not alleging that Saddam was in cahoots with Osama. They may have been working on it. They certainly appear to have been discussing things exactly what is unknown and at this point likely unknowable; though almost certainly it did not involve 9/11.

The war was scarcely unprovoked unless you wish to allege that kicking Saddam out of Kuwait was wrong and the stationing of 50k US troops there and in Saudi Arabia to prevent a re-occurrence of Saddam's adventurism also wrong.

As far as Afghanistan goes The Taliban were at least accomplices after the fat of Osama's destruction of the WTC and so that was also justified. Osama and Saddam sowed the wind and are reaping or have reaped the whirlwind. Complaints about such sound a trifle like pointless whining to my ears.

As for your complain about supporting corrupt rulers what other kind has the Middle East ever had? Governmental corruption in the Middle East was Old news before There was a USA. We simply did business with those who were by and large already on the scene. The closest you get to american Malfeasance in the Middle eaast was Mossadiq and the same forces that aligned themselves against the Shaw would have aligned themselves against Mossadiq and for exactly the same reasons they went after the shaw namely they abhored the 20th century.

Hello Anonymous:)

You : ooh-whee jihadist asks who will go to hell-

Moi : Thanks. I've never been there. Want to come along? We may get a nice tan and then on to heaven and make all who go straight to heaven envious.

Hello A Kafir :)

Thank you for calling me "dearie". Can I call your "honey bun" or "sweetie pie"?.

You : Oh do not be so shy and put the blame on the Ulaema. You are doing everything they do and your post shows the various tricks at disposal of those who lie to the kafirs on Islam.

Moi : So, now we are down to the level of discussion that Muslims "lie" to others and Muslims using "tricks".

You : I am sure you know the various Sahih ahdeet where Muhammad tells how the non-muslims will be swept into hell.

Moi : Muslims refer to the Qur'an as primary source on belief and on heaven and hell. The consensus is that, only God decides. Hadiths are secondary sources of references.

No bona-fide Muslim ulema or scholar would say who will or will not go to hell. Only Muslim fanatics saying you will go to hell if you don't agree with them on religious issues, and mostly directed to Muslims.

You : For kafirs going to hell, one does not even have to depend on the ahdeeth, just look up the Quran verses.

Moi : Why are you, as non-believer and non-Muslim, so afraid of what the Qur'an says on heaven and hell? It bothered me not whit, as do other Muslims, that Christians believe all who do not accept salvation through Christ will end up in hell. Nor do Muslims obsessed on whether they will end up in heaven or hell. Besides on related Suras, non-believers, they will be shown the "face" of God in the after-life. If they still don't believe, they will end up in hell. No one ends up in hell permanently anyway. All will be judged on what they do.

You : Lying has been sanctioned for the muslims when it comes to talking about Islam.

Moi : Sanctioned to lie when talking about Islam? Certainly in Islamic history, some Shiite mullahs do say dissimulation is all right because Shiites are a minority and some Sunni rulers felt threatened by them and seek to persecute them. It was political dissumulation, not religious. That was for the protection of the life of Shiites affected. Lying is still a trasgression for Muslims, whether Shiite or Sunni.

You : Why don't you look at what the Wahabbis did to the residents of Mecca when they entered it for the first time.

Moi : What exactly do you mean and is saying? I have never had any problem, as a non-resident, entering Mecca for the Hajj, Umrah or business. I've seen Americans staying at the Mecca Sheraton too.

You : Talk to the sufis and they will tell you how many of them were strung up and killed as kafirs.

Moi : I know the Turkish governments are leery of Sufis before and discouraged them grouping together. Not too sure now as they are all obsessing on the headscarves issue. So, where and when?

You : Muslims never kill other muslims ... they always declare them as kafirs first.

Moi : Muslim terrorists blew up Muslims without declaring them to be kafirs and indiscriminately in public places. If and when they do, it is warped justification for pure murder.

You : And ofcourse you would deny the hadiath saying to kill anyone who insults Muhammad.

Moi : Why so much primacy on Hadiths? Muslims even ignore fatwas issued by their Grand Muftis. If Muslims are to kill everyone who "insulted" the Prophet, there may will not be doing anything else in their life.

You : Ibn Warraq, hid his identity for long because he was traveling often to the muslim lands.

Moi : The first time I heard of Ibn Warraq is in On Faith. Is he a latter day Sir Richard Burton pretending to be a Muslim to go in disguise for Hajj in Mecca and Medina? I have never heard of anyone non-Muslim travelling to Muslim land having difficulty until and unless he pick a fight with the locals for any given reason, including physical and verbal abuse and cultural insensitivity.

You : He has opted to make his identity public for the last year or so, because he feels it is important for him to do so. But he does have protection.

Moi : What are you expecting us to do about that apart from being indifferent?

You : I do not care whether you change your faith to christianity or not. That is entirely irrelevant.

Moi : Of course you do care judging by your many posts - for Muslims to be anything but Muslims.

You : It is true that the apostates such as Warraq, and Wafa are better known in the west than in the muslim lands but that is not surprising given the level of illiteracy and lack of education in the muslim lands.

Moi : We know that already and.....?

You : They are fulfilling the need for educating the kafirs about Islam.

Moi : And what is their purpose of educating non-Muslims about Islam and Muslims? Why not to mobilise volunteers in the west to go to poor Muslim countries to teach them to read and write or to give health care as doctors and nurses etc?.

You : Their work does highlight the utter intellectual bankruptcy of Islam.

Moi : Oh, I see. I had thought that it is Muslims who need to have new attitudes and approaches in everything, including on Islam.

You : And exactly how does their killing each other excuses a single killing of apostates and blasphemers in Islam?

Moi : Very simple. One don't have to have belief or religion to judge and execute another human being for any reason.

You : But then the standard logic in an argument by a muhammadan is always always to avoid answering the issue raised about Islam by trying to show that everyone else and everything else is much worse.

Moi : "Muhammadan"? Is this not a term used by some Christian missionaries and evangelicals still? "Muhammadan" and "Mohametan" dates from the early Middle Ages, no? The correct term is Muslim.

Surely anyone can stand it when "Muhammadans" ask back on everything on them when they can on everything about Islam and Muslims?

You : Aything anything will do except answering directly about the savagery inherent in the ideology of Islam.

Moi : So, Islam is an "ideology"! Does it not make you wonder that for all the "savagery" said to be "inherent" in Islam, and for all the love, peace and pacificism in Christianity and Buddhism, Christians and Buddhists are, in spite of the tenets of their faiths/beliefs/teachings, has had and do commit acts of savagery?

All the best

"J"

No matter how The Obfuscating Jihadists, Thomas the "god seer" Baums et al present their religions, it all comes down to the basic formation of said religions and the historic reality and flaws in said formations. Who stole what movies and music from whom, whose missionairies forced conversions on what "godless" tribes, and other verbal screams and accusations are irrelevant in the scheme of foundation reality.

Scroll up to see once again that the only "religious reality" is:

DO NO HARM and LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.

And we do not need the biographers of some long dead, illiterate, warmongering Arab, or the biographers of some long dead, illiterate, Jewish preacher man/carpenter/peasant or the fictional characters of the OT or Joe Smith, the "Mormon-con" on how to accomplish this as it is just simple rationality!!!!

Jihadist,

Oh do not be so shy and put the blame on the Ulaema. You are doing everything they do and your post shows the various tricks at disposal of those who lie to the kafirs on Islam. I am sure you know the various Sahih ahdeet where Muhammad tells how the non-muslims will be swept into hell. For kafirs going to hell, one does not even have to depend on the ahdeeth, just look up the Quran verses. Only Allah decides which muslim goes to hell, but there is little doubt about what he has in mind for the Kafirs. He forgives any sin except Shirk. Now don't you feel a little bit of shame trying to lie that Allah will decide whether a non-muslim goes to hell or not? Lying has been sanctioned for the muslims when it comes to talking about Islam.

Oh dearie, you want a list of Apostates killed over the 1400 years? The muslims do not keep such a list, but the accounts are spread all through their history. I personally witnessed a young man knifed to death for apostasy in Pakistan and the police never even bothered to register his case. Now I wonder how that one will ever get into the history books? Then the habit of the muslims to decare those they do not like as kafirs and killing them is also well stated in the Islamic history. How often have the "takfiris" declared those they disagree with as kafirs and then wiped them out. Why don't you look at what the Wahabbis did to the residents of Mecca when they entered it for the first time. Talk to the sufis and they will tell you how many of them were strung up and killed as kafirs. Muslims never kill other muslims ... they always declare them as kafirs first. And ofcourse you would deny the hadiath saying to kill anyone who insults Muhammad.

Ibn Warraq, hid his identity for long because he was traveling often to the muslim lands. He has opted to make his identity public for the last year or so, because he feels it is important for him to do so. But he does have protection.

I do not care whether you change your faith to christianity or not. That is entirely irrelevant. It is true that the apostates such as Warraq, and Wafa are better known in the west than in the muslim lands but that is not surprising given the level of illiteracy and lack of education in the muslim lands. They are fulfilling the need for educating the kafirs about Islam. Their work does highlight the utter intellectual bankruptcy of Islam.

Examine or do not examine christianity, that is between you and the christians. And lumping against the americans is standard fare these days. And exactly how does their killing each other excuses a single killing of apostates and blasphemers in Islam? But then the standard logic in an argument by a muhammadan is always always to avoid answering the issue raised about Islam by trying to show that everyone else and everything else is much worse. Anything anything will do except answering directly about the savagery inherent in the ideology of Islam.

i've never posted twice much less three times please forgive me i am sick and have a fever so my points might not be as diplomatic yet undeniably true as i aspire to ... i think everone has the right to speak.. to be heard to be right or wrong as the occasion turns out as long as they are honest and sincere with thier motives and aspirations.. imyself have heard the truth from complete imbeciles who for what ever reason mayybe god voice came out of thier fog to utter in the simplest of terms the undeniable and unvarnished solution to the questions debated endlessly before by wisemen and true experts i have also heard childred do this wise beyound anything they could have experienced in reality so i try to listen to read and to try to understand the points of others though i may disagree with them.. i file it away and amazed at how often i'm in a new situation 4 me and say oh...... thats what they must have meant on go on with a little more of the amswers that cannot tfully be explained by mortals or myself forgive me for my posting 3 times i have a temperature and may not make sense wheni reread everones comments

ooh-whee jihadist asks who will go to hell-

it looks like she is a good candidate.

let's see-

“I looked into Paradise and I saw that the majority of its people were the poor. And I looked into Hell and I saw that the majority of its people are women.”

“I was shown Hell and I have never seen anything more terrifying than it. And I saw that the majority of its people are women.”

“Because of their ingratitude.”

“They are ungrateful to their companions (husbands) and ungrateful for good treatment. If you are kind to one of them for a lifetime then she sees one (undesirable) thing in you, she will say, ‘I have never had anything good from you.’”

‘You curse frequently and are ungrateful to your husbands. I have not seen anyone more deficient in intelligence and religious commitment than you. A cautious sensible man could be led astray by some of you."

"Is not the testimony of two women equal to the testimony of one man?"

"This is the deficiency in her intelligence. Is it not true that a woman can neither pray nor fast during her menses?"

"This is the deficiency in her religious commitment.”

"Give in charity, for you (women) are the majority of the fuel of Hell."

Hello A Kafir,

Having a bad hair day, or a bad Muslim day?

In your post to Tufail -

You : Why does your Allah hate the pagans so much. Allah does more than berate them and compare them to dumb animals, he promises to torture them for eternity in Hell fire. Christians and jews are not far behind.

Moi : Is that so? Even the Prophet said he does not know if he will go to heaven. Please refer to Suras in the Qur'an on who will or will not go to hell.

You : What religious freedom when the filthy kafirs are to pay jiziya "willingly and feeling subdued"?

Moi : And I had thought "kafirs" are the ones who refer to Muslims as "filthy" and worst. I see that you again bring up jizya. Where exactly is jizya now applied? Muslim states have taxation (except for some like Brunei and other rich oil states) which varies from state to state, income to income, citizens and residents and migrant workers, with avoidance of double taxation and all that.

You quoted : "I believe that inhuman law of apostasy has nothing to do with Islam of the Prophet (s) and it is an interpolation into Islam by fanatics among us and the selfish rulers."

Moi : I agree with him on that. Fatwas issued for rulers' convenience to repress people.

You : Discarding hadeeth that you do not like and using those that you do find advantageous at the moment is an old trick of Islam.

Moi : Old trick of Islam? Old practice of Islamic ulema in fact. Suras in the Qur'an were and are abrogated by Muslims ulema throughout history too. Hadiths are not primary sources but supplementary sources for the formulation of the Shariah.

There is a lot more flexibility and interpretation by the Muslim ulema than non-Muslim "experts" on Islam and Muslim in On Faith and elsewhere. It is rulers and governments who are not for their own reasons and ends.

Of course throughout histoy, Muslims rulers, being rulers, applied what is best for them rather than for community without the consent of the community. They do conveniently forget everything is to be by consensus or consent of the community.

You : Nothing new there. For 1400 years Islam has been killing apostates. In india Apostates are not officially killed but an apostate that is vocal like Taslima Nasreen has to take back her words and seal her lips if she is to live.

Moi : Now you got me curious. Please give me a list of Muslim apostates in the last 1,400 that were killed. We know Salman Rushdie, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Taslima Nasreen et al are still alive. Is Taslima Nasreen not a Bangladeshi now living in India?

You : Moderate muslims cannot speak up against apostasy in muslim lands. They can do that in the safe havens of the kafir lands.

Moi : So, tell me why, say, Ibn Warraq, who is living in the west need to disguise his true identity even in the safe havens of the west?

You : Killing of Apostates is necessary in Islam because that is the only way to keep the savagery of Muhammad hidden from the muslims.

Moi : More Muslims kill other Muslims than kill apostates or non-Muslims. More Muslims get killed for rebelling against their oppressive rulers and governments. Or agaisnt invading and occupying forces. The Prophet a savage? Yes, well, so many missionary men tell us so to change our belief to Christianity.

You : Anyone who insults the prophet, kill him.

Moi : Don't flatter yourself too much. Most Muslims are too busy getting on with their own life to even know who is Wafa something or Ibn Warraq etc. They are more known in the west than in the Muslim world.

You : Stop killing, and the hold of the cult dissolves quite quickly.

Moi : Can we ask the US led coalition forces to be out of Afghanistan and Iraq to reduce and finally stop all that killing? This "cult" for oil to fill up cars as freedom machines is killing too many people.

Oh, don't forget to send out messages to Americans to stop killing one another too. As you know, with Islam having nothing to do with it, over 85,000 Americans were killed by other Americans since 9/11.

You : That is why the Kafirs must insist on freedom to speak and write and question and examine Islam.

Moi : Yes or course. Don't you know Muslims themselves have been speaking and writing and questioning and examining Islam for over 1,400 years? Still are today.

Perhaps Muslims should start a whole new scholarship examining Christianity. We don't really do that before because Muslims don't care for Christianity as Christians care too much about Islam.

--------------------------------------------------

Helly GaryD,

In your post to Malleck -

You : Malleck the kid is being executed for exposing corruption nothing more nor less.

Moi : It was his brother that exposed the corruption. "The kid" considered adult by Asian/Afghan culture, circulated a piece on why women can't have more than one husbands. That is nasty Afghan politics in play. Hamid Karzai can barely contain corruption in Aghanistan.

You : The Crusades whether you like it or not was not an overt act of aggression but rather a belated response upon the Christian West by the followers of Islam. Get the blinders off.

Moi : Unfortunately, those in the Middle East do think the US are the neo-Crusaders and neo-imperialists in Afghanistan and Iraq. So do most Muslims in other regions.

You : Over course freedom of speech is never absolute. One hasn't the right to scream fire in a crowded building if there is no fire. Nor does one have an unrestricted right to call for the deaths of others.

Moi : Yes. And good thing lay Muslims ignore silly calls and fatwas for the deaths of Salman Rushdie or Ayaan Hirsi Ali. That was most unIslamic. I saw Salman Rushdie last year ambling into Dorchester Hotel in London without apparent security. He look well. The hotel staff told me he's having an interview there with a journalist.

And don't forget not calling for the deaths of others does not mean one don't act to kill others in illegal and uncalled for invasions and occupation by one's military troops.

And, as for Salman Rushdie, before writing "Satanic Verses", he was a self-centred and self-absorbed fellow and ambitious in his chosen profession - a writer/novelist. He once even stood up to protest a decision by a British book prize panel to award best book of the year award to someone else.

Come "Satanic Verses" and the fatwa by Ayatollah Khomeini, Salman Rushdie morphed into a free speech freedom fighter for all, and, best of all, he became a "humanist", never mind he shifted from Muslim to atheist to Muslim (temporarily after the fatwa) and back to atheism and now himself "cultural Muslim". Or, perhaps, "cultural Muslim" as ascribed to him. Whatever "cultural Muslim means.

The moral : The world is more complex than one assume or presume. So is the Muslim world and Muslims.

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Daniel in the Lion's Den,

Re your post to Malleck -

You : You and Mr. Moody both have something in common with conservative Christians who post here often: bitterness. This kind of conservative religion doesn't seem to be doing any of you much good.

Moi : Malleck and Moody are giving different perspectives. Both Malleck and Moody and not Americans, and from their posts, are talking about things that may or may not be known by Americans.

Having read On Faith for quite a bit, it is apparent for any foreigner that not all Americans are as well informed on other cultures and countries. There are also many bigoted posts by Americans even on their fellow Americans for being Mormons, Pagans, Atheists, Catholics, Evangelicals, Preachers etc.

As for your statement chiding Moody and Malleck "This kind of conservative religion doesn't seem to be doing any of you much good", I hardly think Islam, or any faith for that matter, as a conservative religion.

Only adherents are conservatives or radicals or progressives etc by their own personal interpretation of their faith and how they live by their faith or otherwise.

They may be angered by some posters/bloggers in On Faith, but I don't think either Moody and Malleck are conservative, bitter or have hatred of others not of their cultures or faith.

A bitter Muslim would never care to come to On Faith. He or she would be venting all his or her bitterness to fellow Muslims in Muslim blogs.

I wish you are able to read blogs by Palestinians or Afghans or Iraqis to understand what "bitterness" is.

Thanks and regards

"J"

So jihadist which of those countries do you think we should invade next hmm?

How can Mohammed be insulted? He is dead and no longer with us. No matter what you may believe about him, you certainly do not believe he is here among us, listening to our every word, and joined in amoung us, in our endless feuds and squabbles about petty human things.

So, who is insulted? I know it cannot be Mohammed. Is there a Muslim reader who can answer? How about Moody?

and went Street places bellowed my misguided else

Anonymous that is the most singularly silly bit of tripe anyone ever posted hear. Saving people from naked aggression is a sin? If that were indeed the case there is not enough of such sin in the world.

200,000 thousand Iraqi killed in Desert storm? Oh wait had their mad leader never invaded Kuwait they'd all be alive today except of course for those who said leader killed out of hand on his own of course.

Korea? So we should have let the North Koreans murder out of hand 1/2 to 2/3rds of those south of the 38th parallel? Are you truly so deranged that you can not recognize the insane little toad who currently is running North Korea into the ground and starving its citizenry through some weird combination of malice and incompetence for what he is?

Viet Nam yes we packed up and left Viet Nam at the behest of all the worlds leftists. The result? Millions dead, millions more displaced and a whole people and culture transplanted from it's native land to the US. And in what reamins the best job you can get is making 200 dollar tennis shoes for westerners and the idiot left still thinks the place is a paradise after we left and took our capitalist running dogs with us. Give me a break.

Had the Palestinians and their Arab allies ever been willing to leave Israel in peace the West Bank would still belong to Jordan.

Millions didn't die in Yugoslavia though again thanks to leftist idiots that thought that preventing the Bosnians from defending themselves was a good idea it was a close run thing.

Let's just some it all up quickly shall we? The Cold war was a miserable business in which the chief failing of the US was that we never seemed to find a middle ground between left wing thugs and right wing thugs and claim it as our own.

It was Leo Tolstoy's view, towards the end of his life, that patriotism is an evil because it 'sets men against each other'. This is in his book "What Is Art?"
I think religion is an evil for the same reason.

Tufail,

I have read the article by former apostate you post and it is riddled with inconsistencies.
He writes:
"The Qur'an and the sayings of the Prophet (s) require Muslims to think critically. Pagans are repeatedly berated for not questioning, for not using reason, even being compared to dumb animals on several occasions!"

Why does your Allah hate the pagans so much. Allah does more than berate them and compare them to dumb animals, he promises to torture them for eternity in Hell fire. Christians and jews are not far behind.

And then he turns around and ends the article with:
"In closing, Islam is only vulnerable when Muslims abandon its clear teaching of reason, religious freedom, tolerance, and peace."

What tolerance when your Allah never stops telling that the non-muslims are worse than dumb animals and will burn for eternity? What religious freedom when the filthy kafirs are to pay jiziya "willingly and feeling subdued"?

He writes: "I believe that inhuman law of apostasy has nothing to do with Islam of the Prophet (s) and it is an interpolation into Islam by fanatics among us and the selfish rulers."

Discarding hadeeth that you do not like and using those that you do find advantageous at the moment is an old trick of Islam. Nothing new there. For 1400 years Islam has been killing apostates. In india Apostates are not officially killed but an apostate that is vocal like Taslima Nasreen has to take back her words and seal her lips if she is to live.

Moderate muslims cannot speak up against apostasy in muslim lands. They can do that in the safe havens of the kafir lands. Killing of Apostates is necessary in Islam because that is the only way to keep the savagery of Muhammad hidden from the muslims. Anyone who insults the prophet, kill him. Stop killing, and the hold of the cult dissolves quite quickly. That is why the Kafirs must insist on freedom to speak and write and question and examine Islam.

PLease read the article: Apostacy in Islam: through the eyes of a former apostate. By T.O.Shanavas

at the followihttp://toledomuslims.com/Criterion/Article.asp?ID=254ng site

The September 11 attacks were a monstrous calling card from a world gone horribly wrong. The message may have been written by Bin Laden (who knows?) and delivered by his couriers, but it could well have been signed by the ghosts of the victims of America's old wars. The millions killed in Korea, Vietnam and Cambodia, the 17,500 killed when Israel - backed by the US - invaded Lebanon in 1982, the 200,000 Iraqis killed in Operation Desert Storm, the thousands of Palestinians who have died fighting Israel's occupation of the West Bank. And the millions who died, in Yugoslavia, Somalia, Haiti, Chile, Nicaragua, El Salvador, the Dominican Republic, Panama, at the hands of all the terrorists, dictators and genocidists whom the American government supported, trained, bankrolled and supplied with arms. And this is far from being a comprehensive list

please mr self proclaimed wise man and prtector or other peoples free speech... post my comments as written or go hide somewhere and close your dishonest mouth... i find it ironnic you teach at a college named liberty in america and see only the incorrect action or others .... clean your own house my fellow or at least admit like i do that my house is also messy in both senses of the metaphor.... i' pray for you and your misguied spewers of actual violence to solve hunmanitarian problems.. polish your jack boots it appears you and your friend want to march again....ill pray that God put a litlle love and generousity in your cold calculating cognitive? heart godd day and pleas pst my real words which hold more of the solutions than your diatribe of of entitle and those who would tell God how the world shoul be

i find your comments...
to illuminated and correct but find my self asking why you appear to be wearing such narrow blinders or have such small gaols to aspire 2... wouldn't it actually make more sense to work for these ideals with all religions and governments of the world... fasim is fasism whether its christian such as hitler who if i remeber right was catholic but i'm sure not the ideal example of christan love or actions, or jewwish or hidu or budist if such a thing exist in buddists... the jews who were my ancestors though i claim an elightened 2 acepting religions that arent exactly like mine but be others of true beliefs that are spiritual,the jews had God himself exhile them once in thier own book or spiritual truths and who i fear god is a gain going to exhile for thier inmuane behavior and unGodly example of thier own stated truths of conduct in humanity.. let them maybe read the 51st psmalm in the last passage to where it says..no... bulls will be burned and i think they might realize after reading the passages before someone ommited the no therby confusing the true meaning which up to that point is crystal clear that God did not wish money or poseesions from his followers ...rather a copntrite and obediant heart.. the idea that a person or a religion is bigger and smarte than God himself is i thinerroneous.. i also think the terroist and the violence people will also have to aswer to God and as for opperession of speech it would be harder to find a more pitiful example than the Bush administration in real practice although i do understand they may have ment well thier actions are the acttion of the pople who think they know more than God himself.... lets just sit back and see how this works out for all these people in ....Gods world>>. a fact they mouth the word to but apparently have no conception 2 the true meaning... let wrong be wrong 4 all who practise it not reserved for a few who are this time in historys version of it... in a game of dogeball with things that blow up instead of harmlessless bounce off. by iam just a dyslexic artist and i'm running a pretty high fever right now and feel misereerable so please check repeated for truth if any exist in my words

Dear Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada

You and Mr. Moody both have something in common with conservative Christians who post here often: bitterness. This kind of conservative religion doesn't seem to be doing any of you much good.

Malleck the kid is being executed for exposing corruption nothing more nor less.

The Crusades whether you like it or not was not an overt act of aggression but rather a belated response upon the Christian West by the followers of Islam. Get the blinders off.

Over course freedom of speech is never absolute. One hasn't the right to scream fire in a crowded building if there is no fire. Nor does one have an unrestricted right to call for the deaths of others.

VOTE:

Blow-up the KABBA in MECCA, Saudi-Arabia!

Blow-up the KABBA...!

Blow-up the KABBA...!

Blow-up the KABBA in MECCA, Saudi-Arabia!

Blow-up the KABBA...!

Blow-up the KABBA...!

Blow-up the KABBA in MECCA, Saudi-Arabia!

Blow-up the KABBA...!

Blow-up the KABBA...!

Blow-up the KABBA in MECCA, Saudi-Arabia!

Blow-up the KABBA...!

Blow-up the KABBA...!

Note: To Prevent this Calamity, OSAMA BIN LADIN, et al, must surrender "Dead or Alive" by end of this JUNE.08! Or the Prophecy will be fulfilled!

**************************************************

VOTE:

Blow-up the AL AQSA DOME in JERUSALEM, ISRAEL!

Blow-up the AL AQSA MOSQUE...!

Blow-up the Al AQSA MOSQUE...!

Blow-up the AL AQSA MOAQUE in JERUSALEM, ISRAEL!

Blow-up the AL AQSA DOME in JERUSALEM, ISRAEL!

Blow-up the AL AQSA MOSQUE...!

Blow-up the Al AQSA MOSQUE...!

Blow-up the AL AQSA MOSQUE in JERUSALEM, ISRAEL!

Blow-up the AL AQSA DOME in JERUSALEM, ISRAEL!

Blow-up the AL AQSA MOSQUE...!

Blow-up the Al AQSA MOSQUE...!

Blow-up the AL AQSA MOAQUE in JERUSALEM, ISRAEL!

Note: To Prevent this Calamity, OSAMA BIN LADIN, et al, must surrender "Dead or Alive" by end of this JUNE.08! Or the Prophecy will be fulfilled!

**************************************************
VOTE:

iLLEGALiZE "iSLAMA-SATiN Religion in AMERICA NOW!!!

iLLEGALiZE "iSLAMA-SATiN Religion in AMERICA NOW!!!

iLLEGALiZE "iSLAMA-SATiN Religion in AMERICA NOW!!!

iLLEGALiZE "iSLAMA-SATiN Religion in AMERICA NOW!!!

iLLEGALiZE "iSLAMA-SATiN Religion in AMERICA NOW!!!

iLLEGALiZE "iSLAMA-SATiN Religion in AMERICA NOW!!!

**************************************************

VOTE:

ABOLiSH ALL EVERY & ANY 'Foreign' Made [Not Made In AMERICA] Pre-Apocalyptic Religions Now!

ABOLiSH ALL EVERY & ANY 'Foreign' Made [Not Made In AMERICA] Pre-Apocalyptic Religions Now!

ABOLiSH ALL EVERY & ANY 'Foreign' Made [Not Made In AMERICA] Pre-Apocalyptic Religions Now!

ABOLiSH ALL EVERY & ANY 'Foreign' Made [Not Made In AMERICA] Pre-Apocalyptic Religions Now!

**************************************************

REMEMBER iSLAM;

Yes, MU-HAM-MAD

[Mu=Chamore(Muel), HAM=Hazeer(pig), MAD=Monszhnoon(crazy)]

is the last Prophet [Profit] in Middle East ... But Never ever in Sweet Sweet APocalyptic Nation , N. A*M*E*R*i*C*A & S. America!

**************************************************

Soon Arabia will drink their oil! This is the Prophecy!

VOTE: E*C*A*T*i*ON PARTY 2012! Ya Ya!

WITH ALL BIG TALKS, THIS IS ALL ACTUALLY WHO YOU ARE:

What an IRONI in the whole present world:

LOOK ALL OVER AROUND,

"ACTUAL KILLERS ALL IN CONTROL" CALLING/BRANDING WHO ARE BEING KILLED IN 'UNCOUNTALBE NUMBERS' AS KILLERS!!!!!!!!!

TO FURTHER JUSTIFY THERE NON STOPPING KILLINGS!!!

E. Favourite,

Of course, you speak for yourself, my friend. And we draw our conclusions.

I am waiting for Daniel Denneet. After sufficient time has passed I'll draw my conclusions and I may or may not tell him and the readers of WAPO what I think and WAPO may publish or not publish.

That's Islamic freedom, as Jihadist would agree. It is far better than spending 4 nillion dollars a week killing people and thereby have your currency depreciate so much that the whole hardworking population of the world has to do you the indignity of refusing to accept payment in your currency.

You don't beleieve me because I am a Muslim? Read the other WAPO news headlines. So far as I know, WAPO journalists have not yet converted collectively to Islam.

No matter how The Obfuscating Jihadists, Thomas the "god seer" Baums et al present their religions, it all comes down to the basic formation of said religions and the historic reality and flaws in said formations. Who stole what movies and music from whom, whose missionairies forced conversions on what "godless" tribes, and other verbal screams and accusations are irrelevant in the scheme of foundation reality.

Again for the 50th time, the historic reality of it all.

1. Abraham founder/father of three major religions was probably a mythical character as was Moses, the "Tablet-Man" who talked to burning bushes and made much magic in Egypt.

1.5 million Conservative Jews and their rabbis have relegated Abraham to the myth pile along with most if not all the OT. http://www.simpletoremember.com/vitals/ConservativeTorah.htm

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth to a mamzer from Nazareth (Professor Bruce Chilton, in his book Rabbi Jesus).

Analyses of Jesus’ life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists) via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and Pagan sects.

The 30% of the NT that is "authentic Jesus" like everything in life was borrowed/plagiarized and/or improved from those who came before. In Jesus' case, it was the ways and sayings of the Babylonians, Greeks, Persians, Egyptians, Hittites, Canaanites, OT, John the Baptizer and possibly the ways and sayings of traveling Greek Cynics. http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

For added "pizzazz", Catholic/Christian theologians divided god the singularity into three persons and invented atonement as an added guilt trip for the "pew people" to go along with this trinity of overseers. By doing so, they made god the padre into god the "filicider".

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels"/"pretty/ugly wingie tenet requirements and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds these acts of terror with blood money from oil profits? The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

4. Luther, Calvin, Joe Smith, Henry VIII, Wesley et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism (from an online Hindu site) - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centered and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’."

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."
"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life. e.g. Buddha by one legend was supposedly talking when he came out of his mother's womb.

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations, embellishments, lies and myths surrounding the founders and foundations of said rules of life.

And if you "deflawed" all of these religions what would you have left??????

1. DO NO HARM!!!

2. LOVE THY NEIGHBOR AS THYSELF!!!!!

Is it not time therefore to "pink slip" all the priests, bishops, popes, rabbis, imams, clerics, ayatollas, prophets, evangelists, "holy rollers", and medicine men?????

THANKS, JIHADIST.

I very mcuh a[[reciated that very intelligent and
heart-felt reply.

Allah Subhana-Wata'ala bless you and all those who are dear to you!

E FAVORITE:

Without repentance, there is no remission of sins. So, in that sense you are correct. God has forgiven many men whom other men would consider beyond the pale, because they repented.

King David had a man, Uriah, pressed into battle until he died so that David could have his wife, Bathsheba.

Samson murdered thiry men and stole their garments to pay a gambling debt, and he was a judge in Israel.

Paul had Christians rounded up, imprisoned, and killed.

Such men as these nonetheless had a heart for God, and prayed for forgiveness. Evidently the thief on the cross adjacent to Jesus had never done anything good his entire life, but when he asked to be saved, Jesus promised him salvation.

On the other hand, guys like King Saul hardened their hearts against God and would not repent. God stopped talking to him through the prophet Isaiah, so he went to the witch of Endor, who was able to conjur up familiar spirits from the dead. Saul was lost to God.

Jesus said, "If your brother sins against you, you shall rebuke him, and IF HE REPENTS, you shall forgive him...unto seventy times seven."

The dividing line between the redeemed and the damned is a matter of the heart, and only the wise God is the Judge. "The spirit of man is a lamp unto the Lord..."

Sister Jehadist,

Jazak-Allah-Khair,

God bless you!

I hope that every one can distinguish between wise, honouralbe & the opposite

reflection through the words on these blogs!

Alot of people here are posting to point out all of the Wicked and hypocritical ways of the United States, and the "but-in-ski," imperialistic, colonialistic attitude of anyone who is appalled that this kid could be killed for "blaspheming" God. But all these niceties, and or improprieties, are not the point; the point is that this kidding is being condemned to death for a false and deceptive reason.

Listing all of the terribel things that the West has done to Islam, going all the way back to the Crusades does not change the point, which is that this kid is being executed for wrong thinking. Isn't this the point?

Just like Jihadist's posts reflect- many Muslims have a few grievances. Maybe if we addressed them instead of going to war there would be peace.

Interesting and inspiring conversation on a radio talk show-

Muslim Grievances

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWN3twz6cQY

GaryD,

Of course Muslims are forcing non-Muslims to "convert to Islam by the sword" everyday. In the Palestinian occupied territories, the Palestinians are fighting to convert the Israelis to Islam. Same thing in Afghanistan and Iraq. They are fighting the forces of the coalition of the willing to convert them to Islam. And, I suppose, the Sunnis and Shiites in Iraq are fighting each other to convert one another to be Sunni or Shiite.

So, I take it that Christianity is spread by pure love, say to South American indigenous populations by the peace-loving Spaniard Conquistados and priests? The history books on Latin America has another version.

From what I read even in On Faith, it is Canyon Shearer and Thomas Baum who are saying those who are not "saved" will go to hell etc, and we are all unworthy humans if we are not Christians who accept salvation throught Christ.

This "Islam is spread by the sword", or "forced conversion to Islam by the sword" is a centuries old line - a rationale, a justification used, first by the Catholic Church to characterise Islam and Muslims as a "competing faith" and to fire up Christians to go on Crusades etc.

And now spouted by evangelicals on missionary treks in Latin America, Africa and Asia, including in Muslim countries that allow Christian missionaries at the behest or pressure of the US government and the Holy See.

It seems that Christians/westerners are more obsessed with Islam and Muslims than Muslims are with Christianity and Christians. The simple fact is, Muslims are only seized by the politics of the west that affect their countries and them.

Are we witnessing "statism" in western thinking? Or just some of us posters/bloggers in On Faith? I think I saw somewhere in another thread, which one I can't remember, where someone whose handle is "Jon" used terms such as the Occident. I hope he is not stuck in a time warp of the Occidental/Oriental worldview.

It would seem that the world knows more of western culture - writers, music, movies than most Americans know of or care for on the same from other parts of the world. No point my referring to Asian, Latin American or African writers, music and movies.

You have a choice what to read, to listen to, to watch and not limit yourself to just those in the west. Other people in other regions have increasingly much to offer and to learn from.

Free speech is also about free choice and to learn from others too. For example, Hollywood movies ripped from East Asian movies. Why not take a look at your local DVD store? Movies are the most painless and easiest way to get a feel for other people and cultures.

--------------------------------------------------

Mohamed MALLECK, Swift Current, Canada

Hello.

On what you ask Professor Dennett, perhaps we should cut these western armchair human rights activists some slack. Unless Dennett is one of the Chicago Seven during the sixties era of protests against the Vietnam war in the US.

Perhaps Dennett can't know, don't know about our countries from the inside. On our family members, friends, acquitances who were detained or tortured or killed in Iran and Indonesia. Or for that matter, Muslims in Iraq, in the Palestinian occupied territories, in Afghanistan.

Suharto of Indonesia, deemed "friendly" to the US, ruled Indonesia for over three decades. The US tolerated his military invading East Timor/Timor Leste until the human rights abuses there and elsewhere in Indonesia, including in Aceh, becomes too untenable to "look away". All due to US priority in having someone like Suharto ensure US's interests in Indonesia and Southeast Asia are assured.

Certainly, one can't expect an atheist to respect people whose beliefs they don't respect or regard having such beliefs as delusional. I would be surprised if atheists tells Muslims we are deluded on what the US foreign policy is doing to us, not understanding for whom and why the policy is, and what the cost are to Muslims and our countries in endeavours and the adventure of the US to maintain its political, economic and security interests.

Dennett, perhaps, is not aware or ignore the fact that for Muslims in Muslim countries, fighting for freedom, be it from foreign occupation, from repressive governments, for free speech, means a fight in which they can be detained, tortured or killed.

All very well and lovely and noble for those in the west to remind, to call on, to urge, to demand Muslims to fight for free speech, to fight for freedom, but it is our life, our lives, our people, our countries, our beliefs, our values that seem to be cavalierly regarded or disregarded as irrelevant.

It is not too difficult for anyone to understand that we want freedom for ourself and others in our own countries on our own terms and not tailored to the interests of other countries or people. Nor is sacrificing our people for the proxy battles and wars of others in our own countries quite an acceptable notion and option.

I got to go. Markets getting interesting.

Thanks and regards
"J"

Mohamed Malleck: Please speak for yourself. Others can express their own opinions without you presuming what they are.

John Stephens: I don’t believe in God or his putative son, but it’s my understanding that for those who do believe, his love encompasses of all who accept it. Perhaps you know better.

Jihadist

While I value your pointing out the clear hypocrasy of the US and other governments.
i don't believe that such hypocrasy justifies the human rights abuses such as the Afghan situation.\\

I would not take the position that we should cease opposing any human rights abuse until all entities are perfect. Nor should we cease pointing out human rights abuses committed or abetted by the US or other govts.

The US govt is NOT overtly advocating killing its own citizens if they violate religious, or even political, norms. There is a SIGNIFICANT difference here. Stop the killing first. Then stop the torture. Then stop the repression. Than stop the exclusion of ideas. If one can do all that at once, Great. But the fact that abuse is common does not mean one should not speak out against it whenever possible, especially in the most life and death cases of genocide and political murder.

PROFESSOR DENNETT,

I really MEAN it that I am expecting a response from you to my posting of 6.06 p.m.

Otherwise, not only me, but I think all WAPO readers who have commented on this site and in particular Muslim commentators, would be entitled to conclude that you don't respect them and they are entitled to treat you the same way!

Ah, The Obfuscating Jihadist returns in full form again neglecting the major issue in today's world i.e. Islamic warmongering and the inherent sins of the koran, both significant detriments to world peace.

Again:

Muslims to include The Obfuscating Jihadist by koranic laws, tenets and interpretations thereof by "redneck" imams and clerics:

1. Believe in "pretty/ugly wingie" thingies and teach their children that such fictional things really exist.

2. Believe that the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis believe they are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

Christopher Hitchen's impromptu thoughts on free speech-

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cer25uaAcrg

"We are for free expression at all times..in all places.."

Islam is, sir, the only religion in which any current worshipers at all still believe in conversion by the sword.

It took nearly a millennia for the first self identified Christian Army to show up. Islam began as an army. There have been dozens of armies containing Hindus but no self identified Hindu army as far as I know the same is true of Shintoism and Buddhism and most of the rest of the worlds religions.

Ahhh...I should look in a bit more on this question in On Faith eh? :)

Some posts in On Faith threads seem to take "free speech" and have "gross speech" or "hate speech" or "slur speech" or "libel speech" or "slander speech", "ignorant speech" or "misinformed speech" or "uninformed speech" or "biased speech" or "judgemental speech" or "bigoted speech" or "patronising speech" or "condescending speech" and what else have you. So, in the spirit of all those categories of "free speech"........

Hello Henry James,

Pardon for not seeing your post before. I don't usually go back to a same thread on different days.

I agree with you on the difference between keeping someone out of one's country and
executing a citizen of one's country due to his "speech" one don't agree with.

The only problem with the US leadership as advocates and protectors of freedom and free speech is that, US domestic policies and decisions became examples used by repressive regimes - "See, they don't have complete freedom of speech too", thus giving further justifications for more repressive measures.

I must say that since 9/11, with the US Patriot Act, what happened in Gitmo and Abu Ghraib and that dastardly practice of "rendition", the repression of free speech is more intense and so is the curtailment of civil rights in Muslims states. All of this in the name of the "war on terror" and for peace, stability and security which is usually that of the government in place.

The US Administration, I regret to say, currently don't have a lot of credibility in promoting or calling out human rights abuses in other nations, especially after 9/11.

The Afghani situation is a clear violation, but to be really chillingly cold about it, what about those Afghans who don't know why they got killed by the thousands for acts they did not do? What about their rights to life? Are we forgetting them because they are not-urban based and they are not somebody important or a "name"?

It is all too often that human rights violations by the religious is of more interest to us that those perpetrated and perpetuated by states. Refer to any credible statistics, look at any state laws of countries in the Middle East and elsewhere, and one sees that more civilians are detained, tortured and killed by states. Or killed in armed conflicts by states.

Raise this question and Muslims would yawn or become cynical for most regard Israel as the worst human rights violators and abusers as it, after all, projects itself as a "beacon of democracy and freedom" in the Middle East.

In the last and this century, the stupidity and self-serving judgements, decisions and actions by the clergy or ulema judgements paled in comparisions to the venality by states in human rights abuses, and this cover inter-state and intra-state armed conflicts upon civilians.

-------------------------------------------------

Hello Sojourner,

That "demand" placed on the Muslim world to do something about this and that is not new. What they are saying is, "We have been through this, don't make our same mistakes" and such. We are expected not to see them as lectures, but gentle advise and well-meaning reminders. I believe on this particular one, the Afghans can't hear above the din of bombs and bullets.

And the west also demand non-Muslim Latin American, African and Asian statese to do this and that - Open your markets to us! Let our corporations in! Let our missionaries operate freely! If you don't we'll impose trade sanctions! We'll isolate your country! We'll impose travel sanctions! and such.

And it cost not the members of the repressive regimes, but their citizens. One only need to look at the sanctions imposed on Saddam Hussein's regime. He seem well fed and self-satisfied while his people suffered and at least half a million infants died. And there is still the sanctions inposed on Mugabe of Zimbabwe and on Burma/Myanmar, or even Cuba. Effective measures against those regimes to make them keel and kneel to open up their societies?

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Gaby,

Not all Muslims who come to On Faith live in the west as do Victoria and Malleck.

We are not really "attacking" the west about its free speech "abuses", but rather, to provide another perspective based on experiences and reality of what is the free speech ideal and what is really happening.

There are many injunctions in the Qur'an reminding man not to do and say anything detrimental to individual dignity and public peace. The Suras in the Qur'an are really specific on slander or slur of a person.

The judgement on that journalism student in Afghanistan is clearly unjust in stating it offend Islam or the Prophet. It is, in fact, offensive to Muslims, an offence by Muslims agaisnt other Muslims invoked in the name of God or the Prophet. A most lame reason for, after all, God ask us to be just towards our fellow men if the those making that judgement remember or care.

Shariah is man-formulated laws, more corretly Islamic jurisprudence, based on the interpretations of the Muslim ulema of the Suras and Hadiths. It varies from state to state. Or rather, person to person who are charged with making determination or jugdement in a Shariah court.

I would question the judge, or more properly, the kadi, who make such judgements - on what reason and for whose benefit. It is a fact the kadis in the Muslim world are not as well trained as those in the civil courts. Nor are the best and brightest pursuing Islamic jurisprudence, but other academic and professional fields.

Muslim states and governments are responsible for this state in not determining the credible benchmarks for academic criteria and excellence of those going into Islamic jurisprudence as kadis, and in monitoring them with as much vigilance and enthusiasm they do on lay Muslims from writer-thinkers to journalists to leaders of Muslim organisations who questioned and challenged their governance.

Perhaps the Muslim governing elite wants to keep their people poor and ignorant so they will be more easily mislead and misruled? Or so they assume and presume.

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Tehmina,

Well, us Muslims in the Muslim world have been trying to get our corrupt and repressive governments from Algeria to Indonesia off our backs from decades and with varying degrees of success.

What to do? Only when the US government decide dictators and authoritarians such as Saddam Hussein are no more pliant or useful or helpful or in their interest can we breath free because the freedoms and security or others are more important?

And we are all expendable in securing that freedom and security for others? And those men with guns are also the weapons bought and/or supplied by the US to make us bow to them by force all in the name of the "war on terror"? Who is in terror?

Protesting against the Suharto regime in UK is easier. The British authorities only told us not to burn his effigies for obvious reasons of public safety and state ordinances.

Protesting and demonstrating against the Suharto regime in Indonesia is another thing. Tear-gas, long batons whacking your body, and hundred metre dashes to avoid your head getting bashed is not pleasant. And we are lucky ones who got away from being detained or killed.

--------------------------------------------------

Hello Joe,

Of course the "Islamic" nations are "backwards". The terms is under-developed or developing countries. "Under-developed" would give you an idea, and so would "developing".

Only a fool would say people in "under-developed" or "developing" countries have the same level of education and standard of living with the "developed" countries familiar with everything from what Socrates to Dennett said. If they are familiar with them at all.

--------------------------------------------------

Hello GaryD,

Of course Muslims also went to war and have armed conflicts like everyone else from Argentina to Germany to Japan to China. Never read nor reading up on the history of the world and other countries, including non-Muslims states and peoples?

Show me a time when the Middle East is not lusted for on oil, show me a time when outsiders ceased to interfere in their internal politics, to prop up repressive regimes that curtailed freedoms of their own people, and we may see something possible like what is happening in Tunisia among Arab states. Not "perfect" by western standards and "demands", but better than, say, China and Vietnam on democracy and freedoms for its people.

So, one billion people living under regimes that curtailed their people's freedoms in, say China, Cuba is acceptable because............

And don't forget the US propping and supporting repressive and authoritarian regimes in the Central Asian, "stans" states just because they are deem "friendly" to US interests and allow US military bases to be build there for peace, security, freedom and way of life. Whose and for whom? Not for the citizens of the "stans" states that I know of. Please enlighten us.

and work and life beckons me

Thanks and regards

"J"

E FAVORITE:

"In malice, be ye as little children, but in understanding quit ye like men."

Nobody loves everybody, and nobody ever has. Certain ancient persons used to worship Molech, to which they built a mammoth brass furnace, heated seven-fold until it was white hot. Then they chucked babies into Molech's hands, where they roasted alive.

God destroyed both it and them. There are times when righteous indignation is in order, and God did rain down death and destruction of Bibical proportion.

Surely you don't suggest that Jesus should love men who rape little girls, then torture them to death for fun? What about the guys who run the world-wide sex slave trade? These things are occuring at this very moment. Surely you can think of other such men who deserve no love from man or God. If you say no, I suggest you are being disengenuous.

First people object to a God of retribution. Then they object to a God of salvation.

"We mourned for you, but you would not lament. We piped for you, but you would not dance."

The situation goes to the roots of the problem. The Jihadist and Moody know them well i.e. the flaws and inherent sins of Islam.

To wit:

Muslims by koranic laws, tenets and interpretations thereof by "redneck" imams and clerics:

1. Believe in "pretty/ugly wingie" thingies and teach their children that such fictional things really exist.

2. Believe that the long-dead Arab did actually talk to the "pretty Gabriel" in the hot "Gabe" cave and therein received the warmongering and anti-female words now listed in the koran.

3. That Sunnis believe they are superior to Shiites in all aspects of life. Shiites think the same way about Sunnis.

4. That Islam is perfect and the koran inherently condones no sin even though the 24/7, 800 year-old blood feud between Sunnis and Shiites gives significant credence that greed, hate, suicides, assassinations, maiming, and murder are condoned by the koran. Having multiple wives also gives significant credence to the sins of rape, adultery, lust and polygamy. The condoned treatment of these wives gives credence that the koran allows the sins of hatred, anger and greed.

Professor Dennett,

I just read a Truthout interview of Daniel Ellsberg titled:

Revealing Deliberate Deceptions: A Truthout Interview With Daniel Ellsberg
By Sari Gelzer
at t r u t h o u t | Interview

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/020408A.shtml

It's true that I am writing from Canada and it is very cold outside, even if inside my home the thermostat is at 23. But I shivered and am still shivering, because I have lived the Iranian Revolution of 1979 and, throughout the 8 years of the US-triggered-and-fueled Iran/Iraq war, I would curse myself every night before going to bed for not having the same courage to protest the Iran/Iraq war that the Buddhist monks had who set themselves on fire to protest Western-instigated violence in Vietnam.

Now, I invite you to read the interview and to let us know your feelings and, in light of what you advise Muslims to do about the case of Sayed Kumbakhsh, what you think your duty should be in case Daniel Ellsberg's predictions prove correct.

I reiterate my immense respect for you, Professor Dennett.

Life without freedom is not worth much. It is within this freedom that we must find ourselves and our true reason for existence. By following others we relinquish this freedom of choice, thereby become less than human.

I agree whole-heartedly with the article by Professer Dennett. Unfortunately, self-reflection does not (ironically) seem to be in a practicing Muslim's vocabulary, as they will immediately flip out at any little Insult to Islam (TM) despite the fact that their violent reaction is far more insulting to the religion than anything the ol' infidels can cook up. For example, the now legendary Muhammed cartoons - which were created precisely to comment on Muslim violence, of course - were nowhere near as damaging to Islam as the reaction itself.

Muslims have the first duty to stop acting like a bunch of blood-thirsty fanatics. Failing that, we as Westerners gain nothing by giving them pass after pass after pass because "that's their culture". Tolerance is not a one-way street, and we are better served by demanding that Muslims everywhere step up and act like rational human beings. I'll start holding my breath...now.

Well stated Professor Denett.

Tehmina Because it is the Muslims doing the killing as has been the case for the last 1300 years. Show me a time when the Middle East has not been largely a thugocracy and when Islam has not been willfully at war with all comers.

Except of course, there is the main point that with the exception of Turkey, Islamic nations, not just Afganistan are to a one, brutal and repressive police states - and Turkey is not exactly like the West either.

Some are better than others, but lets be real, they have either brutal dictators, brutal theocracies or brutal monarchies. Some have a trifecta!

Religious police abound. Barbaric public executions are the way of things. Please Our friends the Saudis flogged a woman for the crime of getting raped! To be precise, the exact sentence was that she was out with a man, and when she got gang raped, it was her fault.

The point is that Islamic nations are backwards, brutal and barbaric things. Only a fool would say otherwise.

Where was the west 50 - 75 - 100 years ago. All societies, religons need not sing the same tune. Here in the US now days anything everything goes. Adultry is called dating, risistance to homosxuality is called lack of tollarance for other ways of life. The great books of Bible and Quran were sent to us as tools to redirect our lives toward a more meaningfull experince while we are on this earth. The most liberal and the most extreme of both religions are rewriting the books to serve their own agendas. These books have passed the test of time. We need to defend the old ways. But the interpertation is where the problem ultimatly lies. To most people standards are norms from which way may depart. Not to me.

Speak out? But why? Only non-Muslims need to atone for their infidelity.

Muslims are completely free to defend the faith, to criticize Israel, to call for the death of the Great Satan USA, to defend Islam from all encroachments or slights suffered in the West, to limit the rights of any non-believers in the realm of Islam, and to assassinate any blasphemers or apostates, wherever they lurk, and thereby win paradise. Evidently, they are also free to blow up mosques and civilians, if they are of the wrong sect or can be blamed for accepting non-Islamic rule. They can even rule as tyrants, so long as they pray and give authority to the mullahs, since the Book says that the even worst Muslim ruler is better than any Infidel ruler. They are even free to beat uncompliant women, rape (out of sight) and then blame the victim for prostitution, get child custody in divorce, and vent collective rage on cartoonists and audacious owners of stuffed bears. What greater freedom could anyone possibly ask?

And, by the way, how often do conservative US believers atone for anything? Of course, they don't, claiming that Jesus did that for them. But what solace is this to dead Indians, unemployed blacks, displaced Iraqis, or nuked Japanese civilians? Are our aerial strikes on Anbar as pinpoint as our faith in the flag prescribes? Oh, yes. War is hell, and all that. Them Eye-rakies hit us first on 9/11 an' all. We're justified by faith. Etc.

Put in proper perspective, Muslim "freedom" is less curious or frightening than the American kind.

Us Muslims asking for freedom of speech? What a thought! why dont Americans ask their leaders to stop pushing huge amounts of money towards corrup venal petty dictators in the ME and in Pakistan? That might be more effective.

Forget about non-muslims in muslim countries, muslims there too have a pretty sh-t life. There is no freedom of expression, freedom to choose, freedom to believe. As long as you go about your business bowing your head to the men with the guns and the money, you are physically safe. I learnt my lesson when I saw 16 year old children with their heads bashed in by the Pakistani policy for peacefully protesting against Martial Law.

Sayyad's situation is an outrage-but it has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.It's time we realize that the Muslim world is inhabited by 1.6 billion souls BUT,I repeat,BUT it is not ruled by ISLAM. Islam is not allowed to rule-that simple-because true Islam will end the alliance between dictatorship and the west.

Intersting how western media busy itself with one person-however mistreated he is-and shed no tears over the one million iraqis dead as a result of American invasion and occupation.

Why people in the west speak loudly about theose one million dead? If they are why does not the killig stop.

Sayyad's situation is an outrage-but it has absolutely nothing to do with Islam.It's time we realize that the Muslim world is inhabited by 1.6 billion souls BUT,I repeat,BUT it is not ruled by ISLAM. Islam is not allowed to rule-that simple-because true Islam will end the alliance between dictatorship and the west.

Intersting how western media busy itself with one person-however mistreated he is-and shed no tears over the one million iraqis dead as a result of American invasion and occupation.

Why people in the west speak loudly about theose one million dead? If they are why does not the killig stop.

Why is it that all the Muslims (except Mallek) who posted here are attacking the west about its free speech abuses, which may or may not exist, but will not say anything against this Afghani law over which a young man will lose his life. Is it because the law is based on the Koran? And God forbid one say anything against the Koran, right? And then you wonder why people call Muslims barbaric. We are not perfect here in the US, but at least we don't kill someone over speaking their mind.

A few weeks ago Arun Ghandi made the mistake of saying that many Israelis as well as their American Jewish allies used the Holocaust as their justification for violence against Palestinians. Ghandi has been made to apologize and forced to resign from the foundation he cofounded. Additionally the Post has required him to write an essay on “the lessons he has learned.” The biggest lesson I would say is not to criticize Israel in the American media. The second lesson is that an Institute for NonViolence would be better cited in Switzerland or Scandinavia, somewhere there is free speech, which in America there is not.

I would thus ask Prof Dennett, where is your moral authority in your exhortation to young Afghani men?

"....you have no excuse, everyone of you who passes judgment, for in that which you judge another, you condemn yourself; for you who judge practice the same things."

(Romans 2:1)

"And why [do you]see the mote that is in your brother's eye; and see not the beam that is in your own eye?

Or how will you say to your brother, Let me take out the grain of dust from your eye, when you yourself have a bit of wood in your eye?

You hypocrite! First remove the beam from your own eye. Then you will see clearly to remove the piece of sawdust from another believer's eye."

(Matthew 7:3-5)

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/pamela_k_taylor/2008/02/another_travesty_in_the_name_o/all_comments.html

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/susan_brooks_thistlethwaite/2008/01/the_face_of_faith/all_comments.html

http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/susan_brooks_thistlethwaite/2008/02/do_christian_beliefs_preclude/all_comments.html

teachers of science, maths and english were from Ireland. she had a red woven horsetail hair to her back. he had red moustache and black hair. he was yellow bald with blue eyes. High School was seven years after the primary school, in KAdikoy MAarif "Calcedonia MAsters".

Islam is evil. Period. Case closed.

Islam must be removed from Earth like cancer, by any means. Humanity is in grave danger! The number of muslims is growing at alarming rate. They will stop at nothing! They will kill anyone and everyone! If you love life, if you love children, if you love peace you must help stop muslims and crush Islam dead! Otherwise you will be dead, or a slave! Your children will be sold for sex. Islam is war. Islam is evil evil evil!

In Europe heretics were condemned to death. That was hundreds of years ago.
We grew up and became wiser and perhaps the Muslim world will do likewise - shall we give them another few hundred years to become enlightened?

But Islam is an peaceful religion all Muslims will tell you, if you do not believe them they will cut your head off.

Once again, a "demand" placed on the Muslim world to do something. How very colonialistic and Orientalist.

How about demanding that free speech laws be equally applied in the West? David Irving is imprisoned in Austria for questioning the Holocaust while you "demand" that Muslims embrace free speech?

Well, I have to tolerate your sophistry and lunacy, Mr. Dennett; one of the flaws of free speech is having to put up with yours.

It's impossible not to agree with Daniel's post, at least in principle. Speaking up for what's right is a moral duty.

However, religion, tribalism, ethnocentrism and nationalism all encourage divided loyalties that cloud the basic truth that we are all human and deserve to have our human dignity respected, including our freedom of conscience.

Religion pits man against god (the IDEA of god, anyway). This is evident in Sharia law, which claims absolute supernatural authority, stealing human dignity and distributing it as it sees fit, leaving man powerless to live according to his own conscience. To speak up for a man upon whom god has been set requires the ability to side against god, or at least against those who act for him IN ABSENTIA.

Similarly for tribalism, which, as I understand it, is the primary social dymanic in Afganistan. To speak against ones tribe is to exile onself.

The same dynamic exists in the U.S. as well, generally around nationalism (and, to a diminishing degree, ethnocentrism). Many Americans cannot see beyond the illusion of the necessity for unconditional patriotism. We have seen this exploited by the Bush administration in particular, with its fear mongering, proclamations that criticism of their policies is "aiding and abetting" and "emboldening" the enemy, and declarations that we are either for them or for the terrorists. What asses!

It's easy to say what others should do, but we can only effect change by doing what WE should do. On the issue of apostacy, which is ultimately an issue of freedom of conscience and basic human dignity, the obvious SYSTEMIC answer is to promote human dignity, universally. On that score America gets a "D-".

Maybe, you should start by Asking for Free speech here in the West from the corporate Media sponsored by the Bush Administration, maybe you should ask for ending Occupation from Iraq, yes Islam has free speech more than any other relegion or Civilisation, all this non sense is being imposed by the West thru their installed government, Stop Blaming Islam for the pruduct of your Occupation and fachism, if you want to have serious Discussion about Free speech, check how the Media attacked the three singer for seing that they were ashamed to be Americans.

who did change the mind of Armenians before World WAr? are Irish in France too? Slax has irish green flower as an icon.

Chad had been raped by Arabs led by the family
who had tortured Grandsons of Ahmet

but it is known as Arab Muslims.
no, they were not those of Ahmet.

cotton and flax seed
flax seed oil is used in paints and woods

France, Second World War,
Armenians are known with paints

Chad grow cotton and cattle

in Ottomans, Armenians were Minister of Health, Prime Minister
Minister of Interior, Navy Commander and General Staff too.

first partner in cotton export is USA
Armenians are in CAlifornia

flax seed oil is organic,
and lets the wood shine filling the holes.

when the lungs are cold, flax seeds in hot milk
are placed between two cotton cloths. and one night long stays on the front and back of the chest

Slax Live CD, works on USB

you may have a computer running on USB, without hard disk and CD driver, writing and reading on USB. it runs on RAM, speeds up any computer and internet access.

to have it on USB, open the CD and plug USB, format USB. ask for DOS Command in Start in Taskbar, change directory to cd and

make_disk (USB):

Slax Live CD, http://slax.hosting4p.com
it provides taskbarless rightclick menu everywhere your pointer is on desktop.

when user logs out, it waits for X Server to shut down.

has Ubuntu developed USB version?
are computers still under DVD trademark?

Statistically
-more than 1 million Iraqi's are been butchered so far
-more than 4 million displaced.
-All major cities are destroyed. No electricity, no water, no sanitation no NOTHING.

On Al Jazeera net Analyst’s are

THANKING USA (Chaos & Conspiracy Masters) for,

1- Alienating millions of the Sunnis from the US established only Shia government.

2- And then branding them ALL SUNNI CIVILIANS as allies of Bathiest Previous (US breed & Groomed) Dictator. And projecting that idea through out world through its Zionist controlled media.
3- In result PROVOKING THE US MADE SHIA ESTABLISMENT to genocide Sunni civilians “AND OFFICIALLY KEEPING CRIMINAL SILENCE SUPPORTING AND PROVIDING WEOPENS”. (On Al Jazeera net Analyst’s comments).

WELL DONE USA MONSTOROUS MASTERS.
KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK; YOUR DAYS ARE ACCOUNTED FOR.

Your stupid look bushy bush president recently visited Middle East and was trying to project the same evil propaganda.

He thinks like him the world is filled with blinds and fools!!!!

No wonder WHY now the extremely abused women EVEN preferring to blow them selves up after all the humility, WHO USED TO BE LIVING PIOUS AND RIGHTIOUS LIVES.

FOR ABUSED WOMEN REFERENC YOU CAN SEE USA TORTURE CELL SNAPS & MOVIES ALL OVER ELECTRONIC MEDIA.

John Stephens: "But, these wee, runty little gods and the wee, runty little men who worship them are more pathetic than anything else."

I take it that you see these "wee, runty little gods" as being inferior to your great big majestic God who rains down pestilence and rends temples. And that it’s OK for his son, Jesus Christ, supposed savior of humankind, to be “realistic” enough not to love everyone.

GEORGIASON:

And so, you shall. I concur with your latest post. I often say some folks think God is Santa Claus and Jesus is the good fairy, so we are like-minded on that point, though with mixed adjectives.

The problem is that so many persons fail to comprehend the majesty of God, and the realism of Christ, i.e. Jesus was realistic; he didn't love everyone.

Thank you for your kind words about my comment.

But thank, you, thank you, thank you, etc., for the delightful way in which you expressed it! And for the thoughts behind your own words, which express great truths about so many contemporary religious persons.

Down here in the heart of the Bible belt, we are only too familiar with that brand of Christians who see God as the Fairy Godmother. The God, that is, who runs around with his little magic wand, dispensing miracles like gum drops. Need a universe? Kabling! God/Fairy Godmother waves his magic wand, and there's the universe--just like Cinderella's Fairy Godmother waves her magic wand and turns those little mice into white stallions. Need the earth, the planets, the moon, and the stars hung in the sky within seven days, without disturbing the otherwise immutable laws of physics? Kabling! God/Fairy Godmother waves his magic wand, and there they all are! Just like Cinderella's Fairy Godmother waves her magic wand and turns that pumpkin into a magnificent coach.

Need rain to replenish the Atlanta metropolitan region's fast diminishing drinking water, caused by a severe drought? Get together, hold hands, and pray to God/Fairy Godmother to--kabling!--wave his magic wand and bring the rain. (Left unsaid is the question of whether God/Fairy Godmother waved his magic wand and created the drought to begin with. But I leave those deep theological questions to others).

Hope to hear more from you, John Stephens.

The self proclamed HONEST KIND through zionest media as usual blowing OUT OF PROPORTION one tiny single event in Afganistan hidden corner.

The country which is UNDER CONSTANT ATTACK FOR ALMOST QUATER OF A CENTURY by the SAME self proclamed HONEST KIND. Where every inch of it is a rubble, destroyed. And where mostly the mentality of the people is GET KILLED OR KILL after the so long OPPRESION OF WESTERN HONEST KIND. "IT IS MORE THAN 25 YEARS OF CONSTANT ATTACK"

Just LOOK at USA FREEDOM laws of TORTURE, DESTRUCTIVE CONSPIRACY & CHAOS THEORIES IN PRACICE. And how many INOCENT CIVILIANS KILLED AND TORTURED BY US SOLDIERS UNDER US PROTECTED LAW. "Is any body acountable?"

The whole media is filled with GREAT US torture cells snaps and movies!

In Afganistan TALIBAN represents the majority people heart and minds which LIGITIMATE GOVERNMENT when ASKED FOR THE EVIDENCE AS PER INTERNATIONAL LAW was replied in the form of rain of bombardment. And TOny UK and Pervaze PAK were answered by US instead of Taliban that it is not a natian but PART OF TERORIST GROUP.

AND THAT IS THE KIND OF JUSTICE USA IS BRINGING ALL OVER THE WORLD.

WHERE THERE IS NO LAW FOR US MASTERS AND ZIONEST ARE ABOVE FROM ALL KIND OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

Dear Professor Dennett,

I have enormous respect for you and I don't have to tell you that, the moment I read the headline about Mr. Sayed Kambakhsh's trials and tribulations in The Guardian Newspaper of UK, even before finishing the article but as soon as I had got the gist of it, I registered my protest.

I would of course, like to do more far more.

A frequent contributor to the On Faith Forum, Victoria, would probably, pacifist as she is, be gritting her teeth as much as I am (I don't claim to have the ideqal Muslim's quality of being a pacifist -- I am a trained Game Theory-brainwashed pragmatist) that she is not going to Kabul to express loudly to Karzai her reprobation.

But I assure you that 99.9% of Muslims are exactly like Victoria.

The cacophony about the Sudanese Teddy bear is no more serious than the Catholic Pastor who, several years back, vociferated that Chicanos who don't speak English should be sent back home because "if Jesus Christ spoke English, every body who wants to live in the US should also".

I wonder what the Pastor's reaction would have been had somebody pointed out to him that Jesus Christ -- for Muslims, Issa-ibn-Mariam, may God's blessings be on him --- spoke not English but Aramaic, and he should be sent back to seminary school to learn Aramaic.

GEORGIASON:

Excellent post.

Those benighted persons who kill in the name of their god have a wee runt of a god for sure. You can insult my God all day long and his response will be no more reflexive than mine when kindergarteners laugh at me for some childish witticism known only to themselves. Cursing my God is tantamount to dogs baying at the moon, which goes right on its course, never skipping a beat. Words of disparagement against my God are words spoken by smoke in the wind. Death will overtake those who utter them before a response is necessitated.

The Great God Almighty is as high above the fray as the heavens are for height, as the universe is for breadth.

But, these wee, runty little gods and the wee, runty little men who worship them are more pathetic than anything else.

The sun and the blackbird.

Like a nightingale
coming back in the
dark I hear a
glimmer escaping
in the twigs of
a quietness, and
finally a martin,
smiling and tender.

Francesco Sinibaldi

Jihadist my Friend

You make a legitimate point that every authoritarian entity (church OR state) restricts free speech.

There is a difference in kind however between

Keeping someone Out of One's Country
and
Executing a citizen of one's country.

The UN convention on Human Rights condems the latter, as it should. And US presidents should work for worldwide adherence to Human Rights, intelligently understood of course.

The Afghani situation is a clear violation.

This post shows the dangers of offering an "expert opinion" relating to Islam or Muslim esp. if one is NOT an expert or fully verse in its teachings/morality.

You state, "The time has come for Muslims to step up to the plate and demonstrate that Islam is a great faith that has no need for violence or intimidation to maintain the loyalty of its congregation."

As a proud and unwavering Muslim, I can assure you I am stepping up the plate (not because you ask that of me, but because "experts" such as yourself insist on speaking for real experts on Islam out there such as Armstrong, Shakir, Esposito, Yusuf, and to a lesser extent Patel) to reclaim my faith from both the ignorant Muslims and non-Muslims alike. The post although praiseworthy for its general tone of respect, does have its awkward part where incomprehension is exhibited on the part of the author. It illustrates that lack of the underlying forces that rule in Afghanistan such as ultraconservative tribalism and its brand of Islam which differs greatly from say Iraqi, Kazakh, or Indonesian Islam. So to lump "Islam" as a monolith reflects a great flaw.

And to state Islam gains its membership and loyalty through intimidation is just plain outrageous. That would mean I as well as millions of American and Western Muslims who have the freedom to practice whatever religion, do not do so for the fear of intimidation? Just who will intimidate me in New Jersey and kill me if I change my faith? Taliban? My state? My government? Thus your argument is erroneous in assuming intimidation forces Muslims to be Muslims and overlooks the powerful spiritual aspect of this (as your rightfully said) great faith.

Peace to you,
Nazim

Ojalá -- that’s a Spanish word meaning “if only” or “I wish that” and pronounced “oh ha LA.” Derived from the Arabic “Allah,” its original meaning is “God willing.”

The word entered the Spanish language during the seven centuries of Muslim dominance in Spain from 711 until 1492, an era known for tolerance of religious minorities and support for advanced scientific knowledge.

Ojalá that Afghanistan could be that way in this day and age.

In Islam,
Muslims DIFFRENCIATE between
- Free Speech (which is acceptable)
&
-Vulgar, obscene, insulting, abusive Slurs (which are not acceptable in Islam, UNLIKE WESTERN TRADITIONS WHERE EVERY THING GOES).

AND MR. "CCNL" IS ONE OF THE PREDOMINENT EXAMPLE OF IT!!!

Don't tell us SITTING AT DISTANCE, that we shouldn't be offended.
Go first abuse IN EVERY POSSIBLE WORD,
- the person present next to you, or
- your parents or
- your love ones.
And then tell us how do you FEEL?
(I guess VERY CONTENTED, HAPPY & GOOD according to your freedom of speech???)
&
And "THEN TELL US FIRST" how open heartedly your abused FALLAS accepted your EVERY POSSIBLE WAY verbal abuse?
Now "GO LOOK into the mirror".

One almost holds back from commenting negatively on such an eloquent affirmation of freedom of speech. But Mr. Dennett is displaying the naivete of the Western liberal intellectual in even bothering to call for freedom of speech in the Muslim world. The controversy surrounding the case of the Afghani student, Sayed Parwiz Kambakhsh, shows in bold relief the great gap separating Western liberal democracies from Islam. It's a gap of time and, even more, of mentality.

Remember this basic fact: The Afghan constitution explicitly states that all law must accord with the Sharia. And the Sharia is crystal clear: Blasphemers, apostates, and heretics must die.

The naivete of Mr. Dennett and other Westerners comes in believing that any of this is a matter of choice. The Afghans who established the current government had no choice but to make the Sharia the source of all law. Had they tried to do otherwise, the government would have been stillborn. The whole enterprise would have collapsed. And once the Sharia was made the fountainhead of law, as night follows day, Muslim clerics guided by the unbending requirements of the Koran and the Sharia would inevitably do what the Sharia requires. It matters not one whit that most Westerners would see this as a primitive ritual carried out in accord with a 7th Century legal code. It does not matter. There is no choice here, by any Muslim. That is the yawning gap that separates the two cultures.

If you haven't already, check out the posting elsewhere in On Faith by Mr. Fairweather, in which he waxes eloquently about the practice by Afghan Shias of whipping themselves into bloody messes in observance of Ashura. Then turn to PostGlobal and read the article by Noorain Khan as she practically swoons recounting the observance of Ashura during her visit to her family in Pakistan. Then read my and other jaundiced views that maybe there's a link between this religious fervor and barbaric flagellation over some event that happened centuries ago and the current sorry state of Pakistan and Afghanistan. Then read the multicultural long knives condemning us for our lack of respect for foreign cultures, totally ignoring the case we made about the downside of rigorous adherence to medieval religious precepts.

We Americans will never "bring" Muslim countries to enlightenment. We will never force nor cajole them into democratic reforms. Muslims themselves must decide the future of their countries. Meanwhile, we should understand that the average earthworm has more understanding of democracy than the average Muslim.

Don't tell us SITTING AT DISTANCE, that we shouldn't be offended.

Go first abuse IN EVERY POSSIBLE WORD,

- the person present next to you, or
- your parents or
- your love ones.

And then tell us how do you FEEL?
(I guess VERY CONTENTED, HAPPY & GOOD according to your freedom of speech???)

&

And "THEN TELL US FIRST" how open heartedly your abused FALLAS accepted your EVERY POSSIBLE WAY verbal abuse?

Now "GO LOOK into the mirror".

The question says that the kid is being executed for insulting Mohammed. But how can Mohammed be insulted? He is dead. I do not understand this kind of thinking or this kind of relgion.

I am not sure if Muslims believe that Mohammed is ressurected as Christians do of Jesus, but if so, still, do you think such a small and petty thing would be insulting to him? I know it would not be.

Someone may be insulted, but I do not think it is Mohammed.

But that point is, that kid who is going to be killed for blasphemy. Don't you see that it could be you next? Or one of your children in the future, killed for blasphemy, meaning to me "wrong thinking."

You are not defending the death penalty for "wrong thinking" I hope.

Mr. Daniel C Dennett,

The west demanding "free speech" in the Muslim world is rather tricky.

As you are well aware, Muslims speaking against their governments in Algeria, Egypt, Malaysia, Pakistan do get detained or worse. And these are the governments deem "friendly" to the west.

It would seem that freedom of speech in the Muslim world only extend to issues the west don't like, and not to those issues affecting their interest or thinking.

What about those Muslims who wrote and spoke against their repressive governments "friendly" to the US/west or even against the west?

As far as I can remember, the late Sir Zaki Badawi of the United Kingdom was not allowed in the US by the US government. Likewise Mr. Tarik Ramadan. Anything to do with what they say?

Free speech is not selectively acceptable speech by Muslims or anyone.

Thank you and best regards

"J"

A former Muslim turned Dean, then President, of Liberty Theological Seminary:
http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=027454a783c841250ba7