The struggle for the soul of Islam

There is no direct relation between Islam and terror. Let us focus mainly on the question: what is the meaning of terror? one should examine what Islam says about terror; the relationship between the notion of jihad and Islam; the status of suicide attacks in Islam; and the false justification of war in the modern world, which can only pave the way for terrorist actions. I suggest that we read perspectives of the distinguished and eminent Turkish scholar and thinker Fethullah Gülen. You will find it very interesting: http://fethullahgulenconference.org/dallas/read.php?p=islam-and-terror-from-perspective-of-fethullah-gulen

Yasser

I mocked the terrorists, who bombed the wrong group of people, as though there could be any right or wrong group of people to murder.

Perhaps you are too young to remember 9/11.

But I remember. We saw on television, live, people jumping from the upper floors of the World Trade Towers. "What are those things falling from the towers?" wondered the news comentators.

And the horrible realization came that it was people jumping, so they would not burn up. I was sick to my stomach for days, and I had a little pain in the middle of my forehead.

At that time, our President was Bush. He was nothing more than a little boy, a little boy as our President, in one of the worst moments of American history. How unlucky we were to have this man at the helm.

I feared that he might do anything in reaction. I expected much worse than actually happened. I believe that it was probably the moderating influence of Wesern Europe that may have restrained him a little. So is the West really as wicked as all that? You do not know what he might have done. Have you ever thought about it? He might have started nuking; he might have nuked Pakistan.

But he did not. The wars are small compared to what I had feared.

For your information, there are about 50 million Americans (my estimate) who are backward and uneducated who cling to their fundamentalist fantasies, who HATE moslems with a passion. It is our job to keep them under control, just as it is the job of Islamic societies to keep their fundamentlists under control.

I say this to help you understand that the people in control of the government are the moderates, and that it could be much, much worse. The United States has not even exerted even a tiny fraction of its might that could be unleashed if provoked enough.

What I am saying is that it is very unwise to keep poking a bear with a stick, because eventually, the bear will tear you into little pieces and eat you.

That is not my threat, that is my observation and fear.

Yasser

Historically, Christianity has been an intolerant religion. To me, this intolerance means that they are rock-solid-certain that they have the truth about God, and that any differing belief is wrong, and that it is their obligation to show non-believers how wrong they are by getting them to convert to the one true religion. Even within Christianity, the various groups are intolerant of each other.

Islam is similarly structured, so that Moslems are rock-solid-certain that Islam is the truth, and that any differing belief system is wrong. But all that is rock-solid-certain is that all of these religious beliefs cannot all be true. In fact, religious belief is not relatable to truth, neither absolute, nor any other kind, but is speculative in nature. People only believe that their religion is the one true religion because that is the heritage of belief that has been passed down to them, not because it really is true.

This becomes obvious when observing the many differing religios traditions simultaneously, as they mingle together in conflict over the issue of which belief is true and which belief is false.

The most prominent feature of modern life is science its utility in our lives, to help us live more comfortably, to suffer less in sickness, to provide a better and more sure food supply, to enable us to travel more easily, to enable us to communicate more easily. But along with the utility of science comes also modern thinking.

The Islamic terrorists are frightened at the prospect of other systems of certain belief that reject Islam. But they fear, even more, the modern thought, which they call “Western thought” which says that no religion is any more true than any other. And to counter the corrosiveness of this wicked way of thinking, they seek to destroy it, by destroying the West, and any influence that the West could exert over Islam.

This is impossible. But even it were possible, even if Islamic terrorists would succeed in nuking New York, Chicago, LosAngeles, London, Paris, Berlin, still this kind of modern thought would not disappear, because it goes hand in hand with modern education and thinking, which is prevalent and dominates the entire world, even and including the Islamic world. “E equals M C squared” is true; evolution of life on earth is true; a universe composed of millions of galaxies is true; but the medieval religions of man are not true, at least not in any orthodox sense.

The inability to accept this, at least in radical fundamentalist Islam, is what I mean when I refer to Islamic nihilism. Their goal is the destruction of Western influence and Western thought; but what they seek to destroy is not Western; it is human, and as long as there are any human beings left alive on the earth, this new and modern way of thinking will persist.

If you want to really read about human rights and which states do what, read the Human rights commission reports, Amnesty international, UNCHR... You will find that they are working on a measure of human rights. That can then be used to understand the spectrum of oppression around the world. Prior to that we use reports. Most countries that are islamic perform poorer that those countries that are not islamic. As time goes on we will have more data. No problem, you don't have to believe me.

On the other hand, my belief has always been that human being are human beings. It is their ideology that makes them different. Thus we can be fatalistic that all humans act badly and so we accept that bad acting. Or we can be hopeful and find a way to intervene and make human ideologies better.

The only way to do this is to look at an ideology as an object. We can examine it, test it, and see how it performs in the real world. But if the ideology says that the measure of goodness is the book itself, the book makes us objects, then we can not test that. Once you and I agree that human reason is a legitimate tool by which to asses an ideology we subject that ideology to our conscience.

For example:

let us examine Quran v 2:7: Allah has set a seal upon their hearts and upon their hearing, and over their vision is a veil. And for them is a great punishment.

Now let us replace a few specifics: Allah has set a seal upon muslim's hearts and upon muslim's hearing, and over their vision is a veil. and for muslim's there is a great punishment.

Just by replacing one group by another, what once read to you as profound, reads to you as horrific. There should not be such power in simply belonging to the right group, so my reason tells me.

Do you believe that reason is higher than the koran or do you believe that god seals the heart of unbelievers with eternal damnation? It is not a question of what happens in a mythical future, it is a question about the nature of the god you worship. If you worship a god that hates the unbeliever, your ideology is to learn to hate the unbeliever.

hariaum

Aryan Invasion: You have as much admitted that there was no invasion. Your argument, which is partially correct is that the gene pool is mixed. Of course the largest diversity of genes is in Africa from which humans arose as our current science says. (and this is seen as evidence of the origin of man in Africa; if the same argument was extended, then India would be the origin of the genetic diversity rather than needing a genetic influx theory, but I defer to the scientists) I offered you genetic science that says there was a mix about 30,000 years ago. You want to call that an invasion, ok. No evidence, but you can call it what you want. You initially presented the invasion as a religious intolerance by the Aryans. No invasion, questionable intolerance. Much more likely a syncretcisim. If you see religion as anthropological, then the Indians faced the question, why is it all these people call god by different names. And so: the truth is one but people call it by different names. Since this vedic injunction is one of the oldest texts in Hinduism, it seems that at the origin it was a religion of tolerance (no otherness).

Rama, Krishna, Devi are all black to the point they are blue. Funny color for a racially white group of people to worship. It seems more likely that the "invading" whites were incorporated into the prevailing vedic culture. Now to you they may be mythical. But to most Hindus they are not so. There is more and more data each year that, as the destruction of Troy was once considered mythical due to social bias, likewise the Ramayana and Mahabharat are considered mythical for social control - there is data that these things happened. (Can't be sure about the flying monkeys but we know that humans and apes socially interacted for millions of years) I would argue that there is more data to support the historicity of Hindu "myths" than the historicity of Mohamed talking with angels.

Untouchability, a real crime, is not mentioned in any scripture. This implies it was accreted onto or existed prior to the religion. Even if it is mentioned, I would agree with you that a text that says so is wrong.

hariaum

OK Yasser.

You don't seem to realize that my political allegiance is to the US. Not India. That's ok, you're blinded by what you want to believe.

Here is for statistics and data:

look up hindu persecution by muslims.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persecution_of_Hindus#During_Islamic_rule_of_the_Indian_sub-continent

look up religious freedom in Indonesia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_of_religion_in_Indonesia

Look up East Timor
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genocides_in_history#East_Timor_under_Indonesian_occupation

Now for the moral argument: if morality is temporal, I would then argue that it is a morality of convenience. If the colonization of India by Muslims as noted in Wikki, is acceptable to you as an appropriate political strategy at that time, then it is an appropriate political strategy now. You, likely, will say it was not politically appropriate then, nor now. Thus you would argue that morality was not practiced very well by the ruling islamic forces on older India. Islam, if it did not fail in commission, failed protecting the minorities while converting by the sword. I argue that history predicts the future. Islam may have changed, but I would like to see evidence of that.

As to caste, I have tried to explain to you how the Hindu scriptures do not support the current manifestation of caste. You will find in the Wikki evidence of islam supporting caste in India. Islam does use genetics inheritance as an appropriate discriminatory method (sunni v shia, male v female). Can you find a Hindu scripture that supports this? Does class structure still play a role in India? Yes. Is it wrong? yes. Is there any excuse, no. (but perhaps that in the 50 years of independence, they are trying to solve the problem; solved, no, trying, I think so.)

hariaum

Daniel,

You'll probably have difficulty believing this but I usually find myself defending you guys and US when Im having discussions with my mullah-type friends at workplace etc. There is no dearth of ingnorant people on our side who consider themselves expert at everything under the sun. I like being the Devil's Advocate. Been like this since I can remember. I just cant stand ignorant people posing as experts and spreading hatred. I have trouble holding back in such situations. And I believe age is just a number, you could be 60 and still talk crap.......!

Your joke about those dead people did struck a chord in me. It was in my opinion both out of place and uncalled for. It gave the impression that you thought those people deserved to die just because they were muslims and believed in Islam. The incident you referred to was one in which 103 people died while playing and watching an evening game of volleyball. No one deserves to die like this. They showed the visuals of the blast all day long. People had arms and legs ripped out of their bodies. I wouldn't wish such misfortune on my worst enemy lest make fun of it. To think of what their parents and loved one would be going through! The bitterness that I mouthed off was in that context. I dont consider myself bitter or angry otherwise. I enjoy coming on this blog and testing the strength of my own opinions with other knowlegdeable people. Its a daily ritual and I learn something new everyday~!

I enjoyed your more subtle gibes directed at me. They're more closer to my own sense of humor. It beggars belief that the same person would also indulge in that crass kind of comedy~!

Just cut the crap Hari! Are you denying that there is no caste system? wasn't around when the Chinese and Greeks came to India? There are 20-30 million dalits (untouchables) in India. Thats almost twice the population of Pakistan. What was their sin that Hinduism condemned them to the status they find themselves in? Even if they convert to Christianity in order to get out of that vicious cycle, the upper caste hindu fascist parties like RSS and Bajrang Dal hound them. Murdering and plundering their properties for this great percieved affront to the Hindu religion.

PS: you still havent responded to my query. You said Islam spread in Hindu lands only by killing and economic pressure. I pointed out to you that the biggest Islamic nation (Indonesia) used to be a Hindu country, yet no muslim army ever went to those parts. Are you man enough to admit your assertions may be wrong when undeniable proof is presented to you?

You've given a nice little twist to what I was trying to imply. I didn't say that we SHOULD start following the superior culture/beleif system. Whether its wrong or right. I just said what I look around me. People tend to expand their own beliefs/way of living etc to other societies. Arguing that only Islam is guilty of this is unjust.

Diwali is celebrated in the streets of Pakistan where hindus live. In Iran and Iraq there is no considerable presence of Hindus. Saudi is a special case that we've already discussed several times before.

Your views about hinduism are your own views. As a devout hindu you should have the right to express them. I will give respect to them even though I do not agree with them. Who decides Pakistan is intolerant and India is tolerant?? Not you or me ofcourse! We're both invested in love of our respective religions and countries. Statistics should then be the basis of these conclusions. No?

Hari,

"The aryan invasion theory has no foundation" That yet again is a sweeping statement. The Aryan Invasion theory may not have been totally proven but it hasn't been completely disproven either. The gene's of Northern Indian fair skinned people have simlar structure to that of their European counterparts. The dark skinned aboriginees of the South have starkly different gene's. Here in Paksitan we have excavations from the ancient Indus valley civilization in Harrappa and Moenjodaro and there is no evidence that these people believe in Rama or Hanuman etc as in there are no traces of the idols of these dieties. There is no reference to the chariot racers who are so central to the Aryan identity. I dont think any one of the scholars would disagree that Aryans did infact came from another place and if not in form of invasion, they were somehow successfull in driving the local Dravidian people down south. Rama, hanuman, Rawan, Shiva are infact mythical characters who never existed in person. Admittedly there is no documentary proof of the Aryan invasion since it happened so long ago. But one can safely assume that the Aryan didn't submit to the local belief system but infact introduced their own belief system that gave them the elevated status while condemning the local dark skinned people to the status of untouchables. Having said that, I do admit that the Aryan invasion theory is controversial having turned into somewhat Political debate rather than a historical one because the current Hindus and Indian Government would like us all to believe that they were an indiginous people. Here's an extract from the research done by the BBC people;

"Many people argue that there is now evidence to show that Muller [original proponent of the hypothesis], and those who followed him, were wrong. Others, however, believe that the case against the Aryan invasion theory is far from conclusive. The matter remains very controversial and highly politicised.[5]"

http://www.religionfacts.com/hinduism/history.htm

Some of your conclusions are just mind boggling. I doubt if you ever disclose your conclusions in person when you're around educated people. Its easier to get away on these blogs with an anonymous name. So the Meccans infact worshipped Ram and Bholaynath? Were the Inca's and Mayans Hindus as well? Hindus have no buisness marching on Mecca dude. Go read some real history first.

No form of Government by humans can be ideal. True the muslims must have made mistakes. But they did rule effectively without resorting to violence often. Thats the generally accepted view of the Historians. Plus we're talking of hundreds years back, hence the prevalent trends of the time need to be taken into consideration as well. Does the current secular democratic system of India gurantee complete protection of the rights of minority muslims and christians in India?

Do I get to be the old guy with the house full of balloons? I have always wanted to be uplifted, and was always full of hot air (gas bag as Yaser says).

hariaum

Yasser

We have both been born into a world that we did not create and have no control over. Things are as they are, and there is nothing that individuals such as you or me can do to change anything in it.

There is only a little bit of time to live upon the earth. All you can do is look after yourself and your loved ones; work for the best and hope for the best.

I infer that you are a very young man. The bitterness that you express often comes with age, as people see all that they ever worked for or hoped for fade or go completely undone.

But not everybody becomes bitter with age; it is possible to resist this tendency. You are too young to be so bitter about things that are beyond all our control.

No, no, it's like the duel between my next door neighbors ... she smashed a dining room chair through the windshield of his truck ...

no, no, that's not it, it's like the duel between my aunt and uncle; she flung a stick of soft butter at him and ruined his brand new suit, and my grandfather had to lock her out of the house, so he couldn't get at her to kill her ...

... Yeah that's the one.

how about dumb and dumber?

hariaum

This duel between Navin1 and Yasser reminds me of the dual between Athens and Sparta.

No, that's not it.

It reminds me of the dual between Carthage and Rome.

No, no, that's not it eigher.

It reminds me of the duel between England and France, no, no, the duel between France and Germany, no no, no!

I still haven't got it right. It's the dual between the United States and the Soviet Union.

No that's not it; its like the dual between the Earth and Mars in "War of the Worlds..."

No, I am not sure if that is it, either...

I see no problem in my use of English and language. (yeah sometimes I epty too fast).

"And this is why so many people believe that there are no "moderate" muslims. ...
I still believe...that muslims are human and thus good"

Sorry if you got lost in the words.

Caste: In numerous writings Old India was the place to go to see culture and society. Chinese writers indicate no slavery. Greek writers find caste distinctions but only a few. The Scriptures of Hinduism say a man is known by his acts, not his birth (repeatedly stating that predetermination of caste is not the case).

Unjustified divisions of humanity are wrong. The final caste discrimination we will confront in human history is that against women (for they are unjustifiably considered other than men). This remains a universal problem that secular society is leading the way but buddhism and Hinduism (less than buddhism) attempted to address 2500 years ago. (They failed.) The fact that is, though, that human beings are not all the same. That differences should be respected (and celebrated). This is what Varna (the sanskrit for color), color personality types, Jung, etc are pointing out.

It is indeed difficult to explain the subtlety of personality types (that are largely determined through genetics, parents, and local societies) as different from unbased discrimination of us v them. Now a religion that says god hates the them participates in that unbased discrimination. Are you opposed to the idea of god hating people, or do you support the ideological basis of discrimination of us v them?

hariaum

Now as to the superiority of a religion or culture. You may argue that the superior European culture is what caused the genocide of the Native Americans. You may argue that Hitler's take over of the Weimar republic was a sign of a superior culture. Rome was superior to Dairus, etc.

But that is an argument of superior power. If power is what you worship, then you are done.

If there is an ideal higher than power, you must ask or define what that ideal is. Is your book the arbiter of superior? Is human reason the measure? etc.

I argue that in a world of economic and political egalitarian constructs we can use Markov chains etc to establish "superiority." But in a world of religious intolerance, where people are not free to say celebrate diwali in the streets of Saudi, Iran, Iraq, Pakistan, etc without fear of reprisal, then the conversion rate is a demonstration of power, not legitimacy. Let us look at societies that are more religiously tolerant, in these many become atheists, many become pantheists, many abandon mono-ideological constructs. Let us look at societies where there is religious intolerance, people follow the crowd. I conclude that in open societies people choose Hindu like attitudes towards the personal pursuit of Truth. It is oppression that allows mono-ideologies to grow.

hariaum

Y

The aryan invasion theory has no foundation. If you will review articles on genetic flows around the world (Science has one this summer), you will see that the first flow to India was about 90,000 years ago with a second major flow in about 30000 years ago. There is no physical evidence of an "aryan invasion" nor literary evidence. The theory was created by Max Weber et al in an attempt to explain a social structure that preceded the history of the bible and the spiritual success of brown people. You will also now find scientific evidence of the Saraswati civilization that was a part of the Indus civilization and thus suggests that the Rg Vedas etc are indigenous. (Not that that matters. The geography of truth is less relevant than the truth. Whether the Vedas originated in India or some spiritual pre-material existence doesn't matter as much as the meaning in the Vedas.)

I appreciate your change in tone. thanks.

As to the data that I am manufacturing, it seems to me that you are referring to the conversion rate. It also seems to me that you are arguing that cultural India was greater than presented (for the sake of argument) my estimate (and some suggest that it extended to Ireland based on the Indo-slavic language groups). Your clarification/ argument would mean that the conversion rate was higher and that it was quite possible that it was the Hindu Pantheon that was taken over by mohamed in Mecca, the Hindu gods removed from the kabaa, and enforcement of the worship of islam over Hindus began with mohamed.

Now you may believe that 10,000 muslims armed marching on mecca was a peaceful show of force. I ask, if 10,000 Hindus marched on Mecca and said surrender, would consider that peaceful?

Now you may believe that political force, economic power, and rules of taxatation that discriminate against a religion are a fair way to run a country and demonstrate tolerance, but I doubt that you would consider that fair if Hindus did so to Muslims (ie Switzerland says no minarets).

Now you may believe that killing a few thousand Indians is an acceptable peaceful means of a superior culture. but I doubt that you want that done to Pakistan by Americans or Christians or Hindus.

Open warfare is "fair", open economic oppression is "fair", if you consider the conversion of Hindus "fair" in that sense, ok; but then you have no problem with the US and others intervening in Pakistan, Saudi Arabia, and any where else they want to go and spread their hegemon - open warfare.

To the extent that the European colonialism was an oppression, you must eventually recognize that Islamic colonialism was an oppression.

hariaum

Daniel

A sense of humor is a sign of a person with cognitive fluidity (a good thing) and confidence enough to laugh at life's challenges. Unfortunately, this is not ever present. Nothing to apologize for. Also, hyperbole is certainly a part of rhetoric and any intelligent debater will be able to recognize that, look past it, and get to the inner construct of the argument. Again, nothing to apologize for.

hariaum

** correction!

In the post below "Nowhere does it clearly imply that you agreed with that assertion" should read "Nowhere does it clearly imply that you disagreed with that assertion"

Hari,

I've read your post a couple of times! Nowhere does it clearly imply that you agreed with that assertion. Then you go on with your false statistics (source??), trying to prove something which you say you dont beleive in!!! What was the point of putting that idiotic assertion any way? Either you believe something or you dont! Cant you see the obvious confusion in your argument??

Your post is full of factual errors as always. You've just repeated the ignorant Christian propaganda lies that Islam was only spread through the sword. I dont know how good is your study of your own religion, but I can say it with confidence that the Hindu cultural expansion didn't stop at Vietnam but infact extended to the modern day Indonesia and Malaysia. The Island of Bali is still 93% Hindu. Did a muslim army ever invade Indo-china?

I belong to these parts so I definitely know a bit of Indian history as well. The Aryans who brought Hinduism to this region also came to India as invaders. They perpetrated killing and mass murder of the local dark skinned aboriginees on a much larger scale than the muslims. They introduced the inhumane caste system so that the dark skinned local tribes always remain sub-serviant to the blue blooded hindus. What about the Buddhists of India? Didn't Hinduism play a part in its complete displacement from the region it was born in? The thing is that when a superior culture/belief system (be it hinduism or Islam or Christianity) takes hold of a society it almost always attempts to consolidate its base and expand its ideology. It helps with Administering the locals. Sometimes its done through bloodshed (which is wrong and should be condemned) but a lot of time it happens because people are in awe of the superior culture/belief system and want to be a part of it to elevate their status in the society. This isn't Islam specific. The people who keep on repeating this disproved theory only expose their own mental incapacity to accept the truth they dont like.

**There are over a billion Moslems in the world, and only a handful of Islamic terrorists, but that does not change the fact that most of these terrorist are Moslems

Daniel,

On a serious note, what you have raised is a valid point. Believe it or not, it is also one of our biggest concerns. Lets have a civilized debate on this. What do you expect us muslims to do? We've tried condemnation in strongest possible words. We've supported full scale wars to root out terrorists from our homeland. Rmember those millions of people leaving there homes and property in Swat (Taliban Heartland!) so that the Army can conduct a full scale operation without the fear of collateral damamge. We've supported US to the best of out ability, catchhing more than 500 hard core al-qaida men including the prized scalps like KSM and Ramzi bin Al-Shibh and handing them over to the Americans. I am open too all suggestions with an open mind. Do you also feel there are something lacking on your part as well?

hariaum

I agree with you.

I do not believe that Muslims are all terrorists, out to kill non-Muslims, and I do not believe that I have ever said any such thing, even though Yasser thinks that is what I have said and thinks that is what I believe. I merely tried to point out to him the public relations disaster that Islam has become all over the world, that there is a perception of a ghoulish religion, and that therefore, people are afraid of Moslems. There are over a billion Moslems in the world, and only a handful of Islamic terrorists, but that does not change the fact that most of these terrorist are Moslems.

Then, once he unleashed his hysterical tirade on me, I merely responded with light-hearted and mocking humor. I would admit to you that I am sorry about that, but I would not admit that to him.

His problem is not that he is a terrorist, but his preposterous piety, which does not square at all with Islam's international bad reputation.

In America we have a saying:

"Denial" ain't just a river in Egypt.

Y

good to see you are online.

You may hold off on your knee jerk hate to read a little more carefully. I said I do not agree with the statement. You and I agree that that is not true. But I have heard it, and it refers to people like yourself that say they are moderate but then jump to conclusions rather than thinking.

As to India, the India that muslims invaded 200 years after muslims decimated the arabic population of diverse religions, extended culturally from Afghanistan to Vietnam. If you take that population now, it would be well over 1.5-2billion. If you accept that 80% of India is Hindu then 46-60% of the original Hindu population was converted by the muslims (by killing or economic pressures). The fact that 40-60% of Hindus survived is what bothers the muslims and chirstians who still can't grasp why people want to be Hindu (and why when given the freedom, people become more Hindu). The reason these Hindus survived is because of Dalits, Brahmins, untouchables, princes, sikhs having a commitment to what is right, not just commitment to a book of poorly written aphorism that can be interpreted to justify killing or to justify self mortification. The reason so many were lost to islam was because they were spiritually unable to understand that islam was a different type of religion that had no interest in letting people live as they chose. By failing to understand the threat, they were nearly extinguished.

Still you attack but do not answer, this shows your mentality and lack of a disciplined mind, I believe you can do better.

hariaum

Another gem from the Hindu crackpot~!

"And this is why so many people believe that there are no "moderate" muslims. Only muslims pretending moderation until they can kill you."

Hari, I really meant what I said when I spoke of you! So all 1.5 billion muslims are out there to kill other people! What is the basis of your fantastical claims?How come we ruled India for 1000 years and still muslims make up just 12% of the population? Who are these so many people you talk of? Your fellow RSS goons?

And this is why so many people believe that there are no "moderate" muslims. Only muslims pretending moderation until they can kill you.

I still believe, in spite of Y's fanatical inability to argue reasonably and continued use of insults to argue his lack of point, that muslims are human and thus good but it is their ideology, islam, that causes them to embrace (surrender to) ignorance. islam is an archetypal monoideology, a monoidolatry (having bastardized the already bastardized chirstianity) - but again, we must be cautious, the muslim is human (ergo good), we must discern our differences and our commonalities. I do not believe Y is able to make such subtle distinction, s/he is of course always right.

hariaum

I think that the West may have now stumbled upon an effective weapon to counter Islamic terrorism: the naked body scanner.

Now, people from Islamic countries who are seeking to come to the West must go through the naked body scanner, to make sure they are not carrying bombs in their underpants.

Now all of that phoney modesty will be all for naught. What is the point of the Islamic morals police beating inapproriately draped women with sticks, if these same women will be exposed, completely naked, in the naked body scanner, if they seek to travel to the West?

Blow yourself for Allah? That's a no-brainer.

But ifidels looking at Moslem naked bodies? Oh mein gosh, God, Allah!! pork.

NEVER ! ! ! !

Whoopsie.

One more nail in the coffin of Nihilist Islamicism.

No point making up Daniel~!

Your racist, sneering, disgusting comment below has pretty much summed up your class~! You're an evil little contemptible pig! Just the kind that gives your country a bad name around the world~! You have some company in the Hindu racist windbag Navin Harium~! Both of you are perfect matches for each other. So please spare me your disgusting missives~! Thanks~!

When an Islamic terrorist puts a bomb in his underpants to blow up innocent people, I am sorry, but that person has opened himself up to, and all of Islam up to, ridicule.

There is just something incongruously humororous about people who are neurotically modest about the human body, smuggling anything in their underpants, much less, a bomb.

If Islamic people do not want to be made fun of for their ridiculous keystone cops antics, then their terrorist, at least, should conduct the manner of their own deaths with a little more dignity.

Yasser

Hey kiddo! That's not cool.

It must be my filthy Western ways.

I can't help it if I am an ifidel.

(BARF)

Let us take Yasser at the surface. He (or she) seems to never have seriously studied history, religion, logic, or philosophy. With defining the logical, religious, historical as what s/he has learned in the mosque, then s/he is correct:

Pakistan is stuck between the crazy muslims and the crazy christians. This is true. But Y is unable to figure out why so he blames the outsiders (the crazies). Y is unable to see that while s/he is on the web, the pakistani people have chosen their government (and lack thereof), have chosen their military coups and thier history. (That every people is the ultimate arbiter of their sovereignty.) Y does not see that the Taliban stabilized Afghanistan by the consent of the people, that pakistani taliban and islamists do have substantial support from pakistanis themselves. That the pakistani people, like all peoples will consent to islamization or consent to secular liberalization by they way they support or fail to support the necessary political forces that wrack the society now. This is battle for Pakistan has external elements, but it is ultimately a Pakistani decision.

But how can you understand that complexity if the truth giver you believe in is dogma in a book written and edited over centuries by power hungry imams. The book says you are not responsible for the failure of your society, it is the unbeliever. That book says you can lie and cheat and deceive if it is politically expedient. That book says whatever you have to do for your islam is acceptable and good. Now, how are we to expect Y to see beyond the prejudice of his / her truth giver. That is a hero. Perhaps a hero that has not yet been born in Pakistan, perhaps that hero has already been killed off, perhaps that hero is a sufi who is willing to say look beyond words and books, but the people of pakistan can't see how that may be true. In the end, we must forgive Y his/her ignorance (even if it is a chosen one); but we must continue to fight the mono-ideological constructs that allow his friends to kill and rape the people of Pakistan.

hariaum

Making fun of dead people~! You turned out to be even more cheap than I thought!

"In Pakistan, a terrorist suicice bomber blew himself up in the wrong crowd and killed the wrong group of people.

Whoopsie.

I bet his face is red now."

I was going to say, I bet you're an idiot. but I wont! Because stating the obvious just takes away all the fun~!

In Pakistan, a terrorist suicice bomber blew himself up in the wrong crowd and killed the wrong group of people.

Whoopsie.

I bet his face is red now.

Yasseryousuffi

You are not a serious person.

You are passive aggressive, deliberately obtuse, and dishonest.

Your arguments are all in bad faith, designed to convince me of what a bad person I am because I am American.

If you would just stop and think for two seconds, you would see that you are not going to get anywhere with that line of thinking.

You are not a serious person; you are just wasting your time here.

I think Yasseryousuffi is a racist.

I guess you can just hang that swastika on the Islamic crescent; graphically speaking, it would be a perfect fit.

Yasseryousuffi

Harsh, judgemental, humorless and bitter ...

... no laughing,

... no smiling,

... no sex,

... no fun,

... are you sure you are not a Born Again Evangelical Christian Fundamentalist?

I can't really tell the difference.

"Yasser, no, you are wrong."

You really think so? So its ok that all those Iraqis, Afghanis, Pakistanis and Palestinian innocent Men, women, children and elderly die? Only when innocent americans and europeans die should we call it terrorism? Are you sure your understanding of world events doesn't depict your deep seated bias and absolute hatred for all things Islam. I condemn the terrorist who kill innocents from any country belonging to any religion from the bottom of my heart and soul. I have only feelings of hatred and contempt for them. They kill hundreds of innocent Pakistanis everyday. We're fighting a war against them. Every Pakistani stands behind the army. Moderate muslims like us are facing the double whammy of Islamic Terrorism and Western Terrorism. We would like both of you to stop killing us! Stop invading our lands. Stop raping our women. Stop torchering innocent defenseless people. Can you atleast condemn your country men who turned a functioning country into a killing field? Im sure you wont. Because you guys can do no wrong. You can plunder any country you want. Bomb any place you like. Its only when the other side reacts, will you guys shreak terrorism cries!

Reminds me of those schooldays bullies who would pick up the weakest child and would provoke that child by hitting him again and again saying "stop hitting yourself" until that child can take it no more and has to hit back only giving the bully reason to hit the child even harder~!

"The definition you cited for terrorism can be applied 100% to CIA, US Army, NATO and IDF."

Yasser, no, you are wrong.

I hope this does not mean that you approve of Islamic terrorism. That is the problem. That you, a Moslem, seem to need a way to justify the terrorism promoted in the name of your religion.

I think you are a little pip-squeak, whose overblown arrogance is absurd and silly, and maybe you should pipe down until you have something relevant and meaningful to say.

Yasseryousuffi

My dentist is from Pakistan. When I first knew him, I did not know if he was Indian or Pakistani, since they all look the same to us stupid Americans. But when I got to know him better, then I found out he is from Pakistan. He and his family go there every summer for several weeks, so the kids do not forget about the old country.

I mainly know him as a dentist, and the main thing we discuss is my teeth. We have never talked about religion. I do not know anything about his religious beliefs. I am not afraid of him, though. Why should I be? He seems like an ordinary person, just like anyone else.

Why do you think that I should think that he might slit my throat? I have no reason to think that; why do you have a reason to think I would think that?

Will someone pleas give some attention to the Islamist gasbag, yasseryousufi? He's begging for it. :0

Daniel,

The definition you cited for terrorism can be applied 100% to CIA, US Army, NATO and IDF. So your claim of only muslims being terrorist and hence the premise that Islam is reaching nihilistic end has been turned on its head by your definition.

I dont answer rantings directed at my person. People whose convictions are so weak that they cannot stand the slightest challenge, usually indulge in long meaningless rants. Its no fun talking to people who cannot even understand your post. The point one's trying to make~!

Yasseryousuffi

You asked me what I think terrorism is.

I think terrorism is seeking to cause fear in a civillian population by the premediated application of random violence among the population, and as far as I can tell, it has no military value. In circumstances of guerilla war, terrorism might possibly shepherd public opinion for or against any given faction.

In my opinion, terrorists are the lowest rats, dirty little sneaks, who plot and scheme from underneath their wet rocks, on just what would be the best way to kill and cripple as many innocent people as they can, including women, old people, the crippled and sick, and little children, who know nothing of the politics of the world, not of the moral debauchary manmand theology.

Having said all this, debating the actual dictionary definiton of terrorism is an excercise in navel-gazing, a total and complete waste of time; it is exactly what is wrong with Islam.

Yasseryousuffi

I am a single American and cannot speak for "Americans" which is a collection of people; nor can I speak for "America" which is a difficult to define illusion as are all nation-states; nor am I responsible for what is done in the name of American authority; I am born, subject to its authority, however it is excercised, the same as any other person in the world; responsiblity for all things American is beyond my capacity.

I do not believe in war. I did not ever vote for Bush. If you hate me for voting for Bush, or if you hate me for waging war against your country, or against anyone, well, then your hostility is misplaced and you are a confused person.

Also, not being Islamic does not make me inferior to you.

Yasseryousuffi

I noted that actions speak louder than words; they do. Your pitiful voice is almost mute, compared to the actions of suicide bombers. This great and wonderful military invention designed to use agains Israel is now consumeing Islam with the threat of complete nihilistic destruction.

Believe it or not; face it or not; that is Islam's problem; that is your problem.

Insult me all you want, with your faint, feeble, ridiculous accusations, so bland that I almost cannot hear them; that is nothing compared to the threat of an army of underpants bombers that Islam is now, this very day, threatening to unleash against the world.

Yasseryousuffi

You are mega-hyper-passive-aggressive.

If an American does not want to get to know a Moslem, then that is wrong, but then if an American does want to get to know a Moslem, then that is wrong too.

Of course, we are ALWAYS WRONG on everything, because we are infidels, which as far as I am concerned, is the equivalent of a Southern racial slur.

My Iraqi friend never said anything to me like you have said and never made me to feel like an infidel.

Yasseryousufi

You said:

"So your Iraqi friend actually "began to chat" with his Israeli co-worker instead of slitting her throat chanting Allahu Akbar! Thats got to be the mother of all surprises~! Did this amazing story make it to the NY Post? Really as I said you just expose your mentality everytime you open your mouth."

YOU ARE AN OBTUSE MORON! ! !

He did not begin to chat with her; they began to chat with each other. As I plainly and clearly said in my comment, when I introduced my Iraqi and Israeli friends to each other, I was expecting awkard formality.

I was expecting mutual hostility.

So, I do not understand how you have misread my clear meaning and intentions so completely; I think you are a little paranoid. If I were afraid my Iraqi friend would slit people's throats, then why would I be friends with him?

Sharif:
You do not need to disassociate all the Pakistani people from this Yasser person, since whoever in the West is acquainted with Pakistanis would know that this guy does only represent himself. Some of the finest people I had the privilege to know in Amrica's heartland or be acquainted with on these Wapo pages hailed from Pakistan. They are mostly distinguished by their sincerety, knowledge and by their passionate loyalty to their adopted countries.

I am a Pakistani and in my 39 years have seen the worst periods of sectarian violence here. There is recorded evidence that Christians, Hindus and other minorities have suffered immeasurably not because all Muslims are haters but because
We find conspiracy in history and never call a spade a spade.

We are taught manufactured history at school which rejoices in half-truths and thrives on conspiracies.So, it becomes very difficult for us to find the enemy within and our thinking is always "Us Versus THEY"

The result is people like Yasser Yousifi

Daniel,

So your Iraqi friend actually "began to chat" with his Israeli co-worker instead of slitting her throat chanting Allahu Akbar! Thats got to be the mother of all surprises~! Did this amazing story make it to the NY Post? Really as I said you just expose your mentality everytime you open your mouth.

Our actions can never be louder than words for those who choose to lock their hearts and minds. You wouldn't even know that the Pakistani Army is right now involved in a full scale war against these terrorists. You wouldn't even know what its like to kill your own, bomb your own country through Jets. We've lost more than 2000 of our brave soldiers and officers in just one year. Hundreds have died in reaction to this offense by the terrorists. I bet you havent read any history of the evil dealings of your CIA in these parts. I understand we were gullible to fight other people's war in the 80's taking on the mighty super power of USSR for our treacherous ally the US. There are problems with the Islamic world. We aren't as educated as we should have been. Education also brings enlightenment. We allow corrupt western puppets to be our rulers. But you cant totally detach yourself from this mess. Al-Qaida was CIA's baby. The global Islamic Jihad was CIA's brainchild. We had no such movement before the 80's. There was no suicide bombings in Pakistan before US detsabilized this whole region by invading Afghanistan. If you're ok with just having one sided supeficial knowledge of an issue and deadset your mind against it, I cant help you out. Nobody can.

So does my bringing up the US stereo type hurt you? How Ironic is that? You're right! I prolly dont know you guys too well. I've never been to the US. Thank God for that. I'd prolly get arrested, because in the US you can arrest muslims and put them in Jail without even giving them a trial (yet another stereotype~!)

I was interested to know since you bring up this terrorism issue so often in your posts saying only muslims are involved in terrorism. What is the definition of terrorism to you? lets have it from the Horse's mouth. Do you realize the brutal terror being perpetrated by Christian coalition of the willing for last 8 years in Iraq? You think its ok that you go about your buisness as usual ways in your country after attacking and absolutely destroying a functioning country? That too on a pack of lies. And then what did you do to rectify this error, you re-elect that war monger who said that God came in his dream and ordered him to attack Iraq! Im not angry at anyone, im just sad that even educated people can be so closed minded. Just looking at one side of an issue. totally ignoring to look at the root causes.

Yasseryousufi

Actions speak louder than words, and the loudest actions of all are suicide bombers. You, with your quiet voice, can barely be heard.

In Western Europe, North America, Russia, India, China, Japan, and Australia, Islam is perceived as a ghoulish blood religion, enraptured with its own goodness, and bent on destruction of all that is not Islamic.

Whether that is a true representation or not, that is the perception. Whether you like it or not, that is the perception. There is nothing that a solitary person such as yourself can do to counter this.

On Christmas Day, what was the face of Islam to the world?

It was the dirty, sneaky little guy from Nigeria, with the bomb in his underpants, who tried to kill hundreds of innocent people; a spoiled little rich kid, who was sad because people did not understand how great Islam is.

Give us all a break.

This is Islam's problem. Everywhere, it is reviled and feared. You can face these facts, and contemplate just what can be done. But your continual denial and evasion of this reality only makes things worse and worse.

As I said, Islam is devolving rapidly into nihilism, the ideology of total destruction for the sake of the ending of all things, a total waste, and nothing more.

Documented is the theocratic murder of 1600 Israelis, among them Christians and Jews by Palestinians.

Documented is the exile of three million Jews from the Middle East, about which not much is said.

Documented is the removal last week of the last remnants of Jewish civilization--three thousand years old--in Yemen, following the Islamist slaughter of a thirty-one-year-old rabbi.

Documented is the horror in many Muslim countries for religious minorities. For the life of the "Untouchables"--the Christians, the Hindus of Pakistan, scroll down. There you will find links and articles. More will follow.

More, too, on Kashmir--that would be the Kashmir of the gun running Kashmirs--where the Pak army runs guns, and supports extremism. Unbelievable what has been done to them, but still pales next to the daily rape, torture, etc., of the Christians in Pakistan.

Yasseryousufi

You don't know much either. There are no
firebreathing televangelists who preach against Islam, at least not that I ever notice.

The main thing that they preach against is "homosexuality." Next after that is legalized abortion which they call "baby killing." Then after that, it is preaching against the Democrats and the government (they especially hate Obama, they say it is not because he is black, but I think it is), and they preach against the Communists. There is not all that much said about Islam, at least not on a regular basis.

They are OBSESSED with homosexuality, and how the gays are taking over everything, and how they must be stopped at all costs, and how the Constitution must be amended.

So, you are no expert on America, but know us also by your stereotypes, which are not true.

Yasser
Your assertion that there is a non-Muslim judge in Pakistan does not make it so. For the sake of the argument let us suppose there is a Christian judge in Pakistan. Does that atone for all the discrimination in jobs, education and housing that non-Muslims suffered and still suffer in Muslim majority lands? Go back and read “Omar Pact” and see how compliant your homeland is. It is this blind fanaticism that deprived Muslim societies from competent employees that eventually led them to distinguish themselves only in poverty, corruption and ignorance. It is the same reason why people like you risk life and limb to escape your hellhole and reach the infidels' shores.

I used to work in a scientific laboratory; that is how I met so many guest scientists from all over the world.

When I knew my friend from Iraq, I also became friends with a co-workder from Israel. I tried to keep these two from meeting; I thought that it would proably not be good to have an Israeli meet an Iraqi.

But one day they did meet. I introduced them. I was expecting awkward formality.

But then, they sat down together and began to chat in Arabic. I was shocked out of my skull. Before long, they were familiar and friendly with each other

My Israeli friend told me that many people in Israel learn Arabic as a foreign language. She wanted to show off to him that she knew Arabic. And he was starved to hear his native tongue.

So, there you have it.

On a personal level, things are quite a bit more complex then mere politics.

I experienced this, and saw it with my own coutry bumpkin eyes.

I can only speak for my own personal experiences. I did have a friend from Iran, a friend from Iraq, a friend from Saudi Arabia, a friend from Egypt, and a friend from Turkey.

I am still aquainted with my friend from Turkey. He never went back. He is now an American citizen.

I do not keep up with my friend from Iran, but she also became an American citizen and abandonned Iran forever, saying goodbye forever to her family, and her mother whom she loved. Now she has her own American family.

My friend from Iraq also never did go back. He also is now an Amerian citizen and he also has his own American family.

None of them practice Islam, and none of them go to church either.

My friends from Egypt and Saudi Arabia were homesick and missed their families, and they went back. Neither had anything good to say about Islam.

Across the street from me, there is an Arab family; I think they are from Morrocco, and their neighbors are from Israel; I think they came to America because they were afraid their sons would die in a pointless "Holy Land" war.

These two families are not the best of friends, I do not think, but the mothers of each family meet and chat happily and openly in the front yards of their houses. What do they talk about, I wonder? Probalby about their husbands and their children.

One day I looked out of my window at them, chatting like this, and for a moment, I was amazed; they don't really care about where they came from; all the grudges of the old countries are gone; they are just glad they are here now, so they don't have to be angry at each other.

I have never met an American who has converted to Islam, but if you say they are around, then I will believe you.

"And, so what if the police chief in some Pakistani city is not a Muslim? So what? Is that supposed to be good or something?

Should we put that in the HEADLINES of the New York Times? It doesn't seem to be anything of any importance"

Daniel, you're getting all worked for nothing. I take your word that you post as yourself. That post was addressed to your fellow bump-kin. Its obvious that his only source of info on Islam are firebreathing televangelists who told him that no non-muslim can become a judge or Police Chief in Pakistan.

Is this columnist writing sarcastically, hypocritically or both?

He has the nerve to single out Islam needing to "choose an inclusive, tolerant attitude toward those outside the faith".

Where is the tolerance and inclusiveness of the Jews towards the Palestinians (or any other denomination or race for that matter)?

It's a given that the U.S. would impose a near media blackout of the Goldstone Report and the AIPAC controlled U.S. Congress would overwhelming vote to live in self-denial about it. But the fact remains that the international community has recognized and documented that the theocratic state of Israel murdered over 1,400 Palestinian civilians, destroyed 4,000 of their homes, and left 400,000 of them without water during the Gaza War which occurred just one year ago.

How disgusting that WaPo would find a rabbi to pass judgment on Islam on the eve of the one year anniversary of this genocidal crime.

And I thought C-SPAN was bad with their de facto policy of only get Jews and Zionists to speak as "guests" to discuss Iran and other issues in the Middle East and then hang up on callers who question this obvious media bias.

Yasseryousufi

I am posting only as myself.

Yasseryousufi

A "bum" is a homeless street person, who begs.

A "bumpkin" is a simple rural person.

I think you are probably calling me a bumkin for I cannot see how you would use the first term as a reasonable insult.

Yet, being called a bumpkin is also, really not all that bad.

So, I do not know alot about Islam and am not an expert on Islam. I still do not understand how that makes me an ignorant and deficient person.

It is your religion, not mine. You are the one true expert, not I.

So what?

Who cares?

And, so what if the police chief in some Pakistani city is not a Muslim? So what? Is that supposed to be good or something?

Should we put that in the HEADLINES of the New York Times? It doesn't seem to be anything of any importance.

Yasseryousufi

Churces, mosques ...

steeples, minarets ...

the Bible, the Koran ...

Jesus, Mohammed ...

... it's all the same to me.

We have plenty of religious paranoia right here in the United States;

we have people who pepper their speech with references to God and Jesus, who quote unsolicted from the Bible, or who have even memorized the Bible, and pepper their speech with Bible quotes;

we have people who pray for "everybody else" who is not Christian and who are going to Hell because of it;

we have self-righteous Christians who assume that they have the one true religion, and who therefore feel superior in the eyes of God;

we have Christians who tell us what God thinks, feels, wants, and believes;

we have Christians who tell us EXACTLY what Heaven is like, with its streets of gold;

we have people who hate the Jews and blame them for everything, even for being splashed with mud in the street;

we have people who are eat-up with Jesus, and who eat, drink, and sleep Jesus, Jesus, Jesus, all of the time, people who are said to suffer from Jesus-mania.

Islam is a mirror image of all this. How is it any better? Being eat-up with Mohammed or eat-up with Jesus, how is one way better or worse than the other?

YOU TELL ME.

They can't both be true. And if you have no basis to say that yours is more true, then why would anyone believe you?

The split in the world is not between Christians and Moslems, who are just absurd images of each other, who are so clueless that they do not even recognize themselves in the other;

the real split in the world is between the modern paradigm and the Medeival paradigm, between those who seek a true and realistic vision and image of the world and those who merely settle for mental conformity to acharic dogmas;

the real split is between the rural and the urban outlook; between the sexually repressed and the sexually free who understand that human sexuality is a healthy part of life;

the real split is between the enlightened and the ignorant.

Call me all the names you want; it doesn't make me angry or upset because you are such a silly and absurd person. I am sorry for you that you take the weight of all this on your shoulders, yet cannot understand.

FYI, for the last 2 years the Police Chief of Karachi, the biggest city in Pakistan is a Non-Muslim~!

Abhab and Daniel~!

Its obvious that both of you are the same person! Grow up kiddo~! This isn't even cool~!

Abhab1

When Yasseryousufi called you a stupid American bumb, he was really referring to me. He got our comments mixed up. I am the stupid American bumb, not you; you're not a stupid American bumb, I am. It's me; not you.

But, let's don't dwell on it.

ABHAB1,

Are you trying to be insidous on purpose or is it just the way you operate? Here's your actual quote

"I have an even simpler question for you(Yasser). Why a Christian cannot be a judge, police officer, head of a governmental department in Pakistan or any other Muslim majority society?
Because the God of Islam, according to your scriptures, prohibits the believers (Muslims) to allow Kafirs (non-Muslims) have authority over them."

I rightfully called you an ignorant bum because you tried to portray an untruth as a fact and when called out for your lies didnt even have the decensy to admit it~! There are Christian, Hindu, Parsi and other non-muslim judges in Pakistan. They can even become the Chief Justice in Pakistan. Would you allow a muslim to become a Chief Justice in USA?

Yasser Yosoufi pontificates thus:

“I almost feel sorry for ignorant country bums like you guys! You just perpetuate the notion of stupid americans thats prevalent throughout the world~!”

All this because I stated that non-Muslims are not allowed to hold what is usually considered as responsible positions in Muslim majority societies. This is in accord with many Quran and Hadith exhortations. One of them is “La wilayat lilKafir ala al Muslim” “There should be no authority for the infidel over the Muslim.”
I know more about your cult than you will ever learn, mainly because I read your scriptures and ahadith and commentaries in their original Arabic text. Secondly I lived in a number of Muslim majority societies and witnessed on the ground how they apply Omar Pact that you completely ignored.
You describe me as one the “stupid American bums” because I revealed that there is a scriptural context as well as traditional context (Omar Pact) for the discrimination in all facets of life against non-Muslims living in Muslim societies. Let me educate you on who is the stupid. It is those over a billion people who use the manual of a 7th Century Hijaz Arab warlord to tackle the problems of a complicated and fast changing 21st Century world. Happy New Year!

yasseryousufi

I did not claim to be an expert on Islam. I said that I know too much about it.

I would not waste my time in deep study of any theology, because theology is what man has written about what God thinks. It is all made up.

Religous people who have studied religion are said to be learned. But that is not possible. Just reviewing over and over and over and over old and anachronistic texts does not make a person learned, at least not about anything of any importance or relevance.

I am not ignorant. Just because I was not born a Moslem and do not believe in Islam and do not practice Islam and am not intereted in converting to Islam, that does not make me ignorant. Just because I am not obsessed over your personal obsessions does not make me ignorant.

Your religion and outlook are based on a Medieval paradigm, which is antiquated and worthless in the modern world.

Islam MUST reform, change, adapt to the world as it is now, not as it was a thousand years ago; such a stiff and persistent resistance to modernizaiton can mean that Islam will eventlually crack and then shatter.

You are an example of this fractured personality, a bitter, arrogant person angry at everyone and everything with nothing good to say about anything.

If you are so unhappy, then why not cast off this heavy of burden of Islam, which only weighs you down with its man-made theology, and try to figure out things for real.

DanielintheLionsDen,

I don’t know what to make of your third post. You sure are one confused person. If the views of your 5 muslims friends explains the 1.5 billion muslims to you, what do you say of those 1.5 million Americans who have converted to Islam? They included men and women who are highly educated Doctors, College Professors, Rabbi’s, Priests, Scientists etc. They are former Christians, Atheists and Jews. Some of them are very rich others not so rich. Many of them converted after 9/11 despite the 24/7 Islam bashing that goes around in US. Why do you believe Islam is the fastest growing religion in US despite 9/11? Why do you believe westerners from such diverse backgrounds choose to live their life in accordance with an ideology that you consider is approaching nihilism? You have an impressionable mind. Your superficial knowledge of Islam is bared every time you open your mouth to speak on Islam.

I don’t know your friends, I don’t know if they even existed so I cannot comment on how they felt when returned to their countries. I believe as the Holy Quran says that there’s no compulsion in Islam. If they choose to renounce Islam they should have the right to do so. I don’t want to proselytize anyone, I myself being pretty imperfect. I am only here to take on the hate mongers on this blog and lay bare their lies~!

Yasseryousufi

I can only speak for myself, not for America or all Americans.

I do not believe that all Muslims are terrorists. I do however note that most terrorsts are Muslim. Therefore, I might be afraid to sit next to one on an airplane, or even to stand near one in an airport. That is an association that has been made in my mind. It is not due to ignorance or hate. It is Islam's problem. Trust is earned, and once squandered, it is difficult to get it back. I am just telling you the facts of life about the real world. Islam has a very real problem of its own making.

First, there were the suicide bombers used against Israeli security and then against civilians. Next, it spread to Jordan, Saudi Arabia, and then to Iraq, and now to Afganistan. It is a weapon that has also been used in London and Madrid and New York. It has even been used lately, in Iran.

Now we have the underpants bomber. Do you know what the means? Now we are going to be made to walk through scanners in airports that security can see our naked bodies through our clothes. I hope this will stop the Islamic terrorists, because aren't Moslems compusively prudish about their bodies? Isn't that one of the distinguishing things about Islam, cover the body, don't incite lust in men? and all that?

So what is next? Bombs in the rectum? Bombs in the vagina? What a wonderful religion, how dignified. Prudish and pious to a "t" up until the very moment of vaginal detonation. What a way to combine violence and sex.

Like I said, Islam is fast careening into empty, blank, and pointless nihilsm. That is the conclusion, I think, to be drawn from all of this.

And as I said before, which you do not seem to get, our president, the President of the United States of American is named Barak Hussein Obama.

So what is your point about his middle eastern name holding him back?

DanielintheLionsDen,

So basically you have no problems that Americans as a Nation have become so ignorant and hatefull that they believe anyone who is muslim has to be a terrorists and a major political party considers it fair game to titillate these raw emotions.

What about the American terrorism directed at muslims? That goes back to pre-9/11 era or are you programmed to think only one side of the argument?

That last post was addressed to DanielintheLionsDen..........sorry~!

@ABHAB

"But perhaps it would better for you not to comment on such things, that you have no way of understanding nor comprehending. That is your argument, after all, for anyone who cricitizes Islam."

I fail to see really what issues you're having with my comments. You say you consider yourself an expert on Islam as in you know Islam too well. May I ask, what is your source of Information on Islam? What kind of books do you read on Islam? Have you ever taken an Islam related course at the University or do you just let your biases and hatred be your guide?

You sound like a confused man. In one breath you say you know Islam too well and then you go on to say that you're no expert on other people's religion! huh! Its good you finally understand the point I was making with regards to Christianity being the basic principle in choosing the head of state in UK. I hope you were joking when you said that you had NEVER heard of anyone who wanted to be King or Queen of England. If you weren't one can only assume you have spent your life living under a rock or inside a cave or something. I have no views on whether British should continue to have a monarchy or not. You seem to know whats right for everyone around the world. That “I know all” attitude probably contributes to your being ignorant as well.

There’s not much left to say of your understanding of Islam if you consider 9/11 suiciders and Osama as pious muslims. And you base your whole argument about Islam approaching nihilism and whatever based on this faulty understanding! You Sir, are an ignoramus of the highest order. Suiciders go to hell! This is mentioned by the Prophet Muhammad in no unambiguous terms, so do the people who kill innocents. Are you not ashamed of the reaction American people showed after those 9/11 attacks? They cheered on a war based upon lies and re-elected their war mongering, scum of the earth, lying President to continue their War of vengeance on the totally innocent people of Iraq.

No sane person be they Muslim or whoever can believe that killing an innocent can ever be justified in any way. If your diabolical assertion wrt to this questions is that Muslims somehow are OK with this, try and look at your face in the mirror and ask yourself, did 5 million Iraqi children deserve to die because American and European people imposed crippling sanctions on their country by not allowing even powdered milk to enter into Iraq. Only then will you have the right to question us for the few thousand people who became victims of our terrorism~!

Reading this little punk take advantage the climate

to do the usual zionist bashing of everything Islam makes me as angry the second day as it did the first.

Americans problem with Islam first surfaced in a big way in 9/11, after which ObL and his spokesmen

said it was because of our support of Israel. The King of Jordan said the same thing, as did most of our friends and foes.

And so we need to hear the constant
sceaming against Islam form the rabbi?
And screaming for the bombing of Iran?

Wonder when we'll hear on the architect of the Iraq war, Wolfowitz. If we hadn't been conned into Iraq we'd have much more men and power to fight our real war.
Oh, thanks so.

Yasseryousufi

In my adult life, I have had co-workers and aquaintances from Iran, Iraq, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Turkey. All of them were educated people with a modern outlook.

All of them had negative feelings towards Islam. My friend from Turkey had the most anti-Islamic attitude. He said to me, "You cannot imagine what it is like to live in an Islamic country..." I found this a little strange, since we are always told that Turkey is the most progressive Islamic country in the world. But apparently, it is not progressive enough for progressive people.

My friend from Iran was a close second in her condemnation of Islam. I have seen her in hysterical cying fits, shouting how much she hated Islam and Mohammed, and how Islam has ruined her life. All because she wanted to go home to visit her mother, and wear a plain and ordinary dress without being beaten by the "
morals police."

My friends from Iraq, Egypt, and Saudi Arabia were less vocal, but none of them had anything good to say about Islam.

Are these people what you call infidels? Should they be punished or killed because they do not believe in Allay or Mohammed? Do you think that when they went back to their home countries that they expressed these same feelings at home, or do you suppose that they pretended to "beleive?"

Do you think that a religion in which everyone is forced to "beleive" what they do not believe is good?

Yasseryousufi

Barak Obama is President of the United States. His middle name is Hussein. During the election, his opponents tried to exploit the fear of Islamic terrorism by pointing out his middle name.

Nevertheless, he won the election and he is now President.

That does not mean that Americans are still not justifiably fearful of Islamic terrorism directed against innocent people, only that they do not attach this fear to our new President's middle name.

So, what was your point?

Yasseryousufi

Yes, I followed the thread, and frankly, it is a little tedious. I am not as ignorant as you. Just because I do not have a Medieval concept of the world does not mean that I am an atheist; I am not.

But perhaps it would better for you not to comment on such things, that you have no way of understanding nor comprehending. That is your argument, after all, for anyone who cricitizes Islam.

I am afraid that my ignornace of Islam is not the problem; I am afraid the problem is that I understand it all too well.

The British monarch is the head of the Church of England. One would suppose that the head of the Church of England would be Anglican, although I am no expert on other people's religons, which by the way does not make me ignorant and does not make me anti-Anglican nor anti-Islam.

But aside from that, who cares? I never heard of anyone anywhere, not NEVER, who wanted to be the King of England; it is the most extremely absurd thing that I can possibly imagine. The question is not should a Moslem be allowed to be King of England; the question is should the British monarchy be allowed to continue. It is a feudal instituiton, which predates any concept of Western Democracy by centuries. Who the Hell cares?

The reason that Americans are afraid of Moslems is because they are the ones who flew the planes into the World Trade Towers, after nights of drinking and strip bars. This is why I say that Islam is approaching Nihilsm, because the most very pious of Moslems also engage in the filthy ways of Western World and then in horrified guilt, seek to atone for their wickedness by destroying that which arouses such lust in their hearts.

If you want to proseltyze your religion to people who are not Islamic, then, yes, I think you do need to explain how you know all of the things you believe to be true actually are true. God must be, because, how could God not be, is no proof, not even an argument; it is mental conformity to dogma.

To answer your question,

I do not believe its ok to punish innocent civilians for the (percieved) sins of their leaders by dropping Nuclear Bombs, Daisy Cutters, Napalms etc on them.

Do you believe it is ever moral to carry a bomb in your underpants? Or might May West just think you are happy to see her?

Since 9/11 most people researched and know what mohammed said and did in his life, many have read his koran and interpreted his verses exactly like the "radicals" of Islam have. It matters not what apologists say or do, We understand the koran exactly like the Saudis and the Iranians do. We also know why the road to Mecca forks for Muslims and non-Mohammadans. One can easily understand why there are no human rights in Islam and why Muslims have bloody borders, why they are always "struggling". why they always have enemies and why they engage in "battles". Examples of such are abundant in Islams history and its prophets life.

The most important question to Muslims going forward is; Can Islam survive another 10~20 years? It is a serious question, really! It seems the believers are desperate. Every day I wake up and check the news with the question; What have the Muslims been up to? I’m never disappointed, a suicide here, a bomb there, 50 dead in one place. A terrorist act in a Muslims favorite WMD (Kafir commercial airliner) gone awry... it never ends.

Muslims 2010 is around the corner, you all are confused, angry and lost. Your Koran’s message has failed and is proven hopeless, your people are looking for leadership please do something before its too late.

@ABHAB

As I said the ignorance and idiocy of the bloggers posing as experts on Islam and Pakistan is simply breathtaking. Who said a Christian cant be a judge in Pakistan. We've had Christian judges, Hindu Judges, Zoroastrian Judges. A Hindu, Justice Bhagwan Das, almost became the Chief Justice of Pakistan as he was next in line when the current Chief Justice was dismissed by Musharraf. He himself declined to accept the post in solidarity with the lawyers movement. He is currently the Chairman of Federal Public Service Commission (FPSC), a pretty influential post in Pakistan.

I almost feel sorry for ignorant country bums like you guys! You just perpetuate the notion of stupid americans thats prevalent throughout the world~!

What "struggle" for islam's soul? Muslim nations appear content to let matters continue as they are and do nothing to inhibit the murderous fanatics who wage jihad against the West. The US president cannot even properly label the danger Americans face. He refuses to label terrorists as terrorists and never calls them what they are- islamic terrorists. Imagine if FDR had never called the enemy "Germans" or "Nazis." Obama appears to value his personal popularity more than a deeply felt concern for the security of the people of the United States. Obama himself is something Americans should worry about.

It never ceases to amaze me how far you communists will go to try and paint Christianity with the same brush as Extremist Islamists.

McVeigh was not a devout Christian.
From wiki-

McVeigh professed his belief in "a God", although he said he had "sort of lost touch with" Catholicism and "I never really picked it up, however I do maintain core beliefs." The Guardian reported that McVeigh wrote a letter to them claiming to be an agnostic.[15] McVeigh once said that he believed the universe was guided by natural law, energized by some universal higher power that showed each person right from wrong if they paid attention to what was going on inside them. He had also said, "Science is my religion."[16]

SO again YOU LIE!

Although this is generally a pretty balanced article, the remark that Obama's muslim background is "paranoiac piffle" needs to be clarified.

There should be no dispute that Obama was raised as a muslim, as his published secondary school registration in Indonesia clearly states.

Why is it so difficult for this basic fact to be acknowledged?

*The common thread is...the foundation of their actions and beliefs in Islam and the Koran.*

Couldnt it be, that there are some things in the REAL WORLD that they are clever enough to see and that make them fight? There is still something called FREEDOM that we all agree is worth fighting for. There is not just our freedom, there is also their freedom, the two are not the same, and they have equal rights, in Israel, by the way, too.....

Is there any Anti-Islam soul? None that means anything done by the Anti-Islam coalition. We are all children of god.

Yasser Yousufi explains

“The question Kafir asked me was why cant a Christian be a head of State in Pakistan?”

I have an even simpler question for you(Yasser). Why a Christian cannot be a judge, police officer, head of a governmental department in Pakistan or any other Muslim majority society?
Because the God of Islam, according to your scriptures, prohibits the believers (Muslims) to allow Kafirs (non-Muslims) have authority over them.

Qur'an (4:59) - "O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger and those in authority from among the Muslims..."
As to how non-Muslims should be treated in Muslim majority societies refer to the manual established by the second Caliph Omar and called “Pact of Omar"

http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

To understand the Muslim/Muhammadan mind, one must read the biographies and the hadiths that detail Muhammad's action.

Muhammad founded Islam with violence including violence against the unarmed. One of the people he had murdered was Asma bint Marwan, a poetess who had exposed Muhammad as a fraud. She was murdered while sleeping with her infants. Muhammad praised the killer. Muhammad had asked for her murder.

To Muhammadans, Muhammad is the paragon of virtue. they believe that Asma was murdered upon the orders of their Arabic god Allah. They believe that Allah acted thru Muhammad and the murder of Asma to them was a divinely commanded act even though Asma was unarmed.

The Asma murder is only one of the many murders that were commited by Muhammad or ordered by him, of unarmed humans. He and his men once wiped out 800 unarmed Jews of teh Banu Quraiza tribe and then claimed that his idol Allah had ordered it.

As long as we have Muslims who look up to Muhammad and his actions as examples to follow, there will be terrorism in this world.

I was wondering when hindu extremists like Navin and clearthinking will raise their ugly heads. cant stay away from action when there's Islam bashing going on 'eh?

What about those 5 terrorists? They were caught in a muslim country with the help of intel provided by muslim informers in a sophisticated sting operation conducted by the Pakistani intelligence. Even their parents provided FBI clues that were vital. The crackpots like Clearthinking would only want us to focus on the muslim terrorists and ignore the religion of those that are fighting these terrorists.

Would the Hindu extremists on these blogs condemn the hindu terrorist factions like RSS, VHP, Bajrang Dal, BJP etc like they condemn those 5 idiots? These maniacs kill, plunder, rape and terrorize minorities in India with impunity in the name of Hinduism. Even those moderate hindus who dare raise their voices against these injustices aren't spared by these facists. All we have is deafening silence from the hindus here~!

THIS IS ENCOURAGING!

Finally, after the Chicago-Pakistani terrortists, Virginia-American 5 terrorists, Nigerian terrorist, etc...
educated muslims are no more in denial.

What has been obvious to everyone is now obvious to educated muslims living in America. The only common thread between a wealthy Nigerian terrorist, an educated Egyptian terrorist (Atta), an American dental student in Virginia terrorist, A half-Paki/half-American terrorist (Headly), a Yemeni terrorist, a Saudi terrorist, an indonesian terrorist, a Filipino terrorist, a Pakistani terrorist, an Afghani terrorist, a Punjabi terrorist, the Taliban terrorist, Lashkar-e taiba terrorist, British terrorist is ....
Poverty? No.
Lack of Education? No.
Lack of opportunity? No.
Sexual frustration? Noyes.
Colonialism? No.

The common thread is...the foundation of their actions and beliefs in Islam and the Koran.

It's nice to see no more Knee-jerk "religion o' peace" defense from Eboo Patel, Pamela Taylor, etc. Only silence. Now that the obvious is even more obvious. Even bloggers like Yasseryousufi, who are very representative of the average Muslim mindset, is ...

Oh No. He's still defending violence and intolerance. Still providing cover for terrorists. Still in denial. Still trying to show moral equivalency where none exists.

Can we please move on and address the obvious problem. Only muslims from the inside can reform their relgion and rewrite the Koran. Or can they?

@TVM1:
"All 1.57 billion of them. Right?"

Cheap Shot.

Were ALL Germans killed to defeat Nazism?
Were ALL Italians killed to defeat fascism?
Were ALL Russian killed to defeat Communism?

The war within Islam is not of our making but it is killing many, mostly muslims but quite a few non-muslims, and it is circumscribing many of our liberties. Whether we like it or no we have been dragged into the Islamic Civil war and we have been forced to take sides. We can decide to either win or pretend that playing pacifist with the jihadis will keep us out of their war.

Islam is too intolerant and violent towards others for it to be reformed. It has to be militarily defeated like Nazism and fascism Posted by: udayesh | December 30, 2009 1:44 AM

==

All 1.57 billion of them. Right?

December 30, 2009, 11:46 am

Christian employees face police case and torture by TMA on Christmas Day in Pakistan.

Pakpattan: December 29, 2009. (PCP) A Muslim Sanitary Inspector of Tehsil Municipal Administration TMA was beating and openly manhandling Christian Sanitary workers in broad daylight on streets of Pakpattan city of Punjab province who were insisting to go for prayers on 25th December, the Day of Christmas in Islamic Republic of Pakistan.

When poor Christian employees of TMA reached to lodge complain on inhuman behavior and beating of Sanitary Inspector Mohammad Attique Butt, DCO Pakpattan ordered police to register case against Christians.

The Punjab Government and Chief Minister Shahbaz Sharif had proudly announced holiday for Christian employees for December 25 and 26, a two day leave with pay for thousands of Christian employees to celebrate Christmas.

The Tehsil Municipal Officer Pakpattan Mohammad Aslam Gujar and Sanitary Inspector Mohammad Attique Butt forced Christian employees to clean roads of Pakpattan city instead of going for prayers on Christmas Day defying orders of Christmas Holidays announced by Chief Minister of Punjab Government.

When All Christian Communities Alliance ACCA President Javeed Sahotra, Secretary General Nadeem Hamid Gill along with other leaders Khalid Nazir and Sabar Masih intervened in matter to get relief for Christian employees, the TMO Mohammad Aslam Gujar refused to listen their plea and denied Christians to offer their Christmas prayers.

The poor Christian Sanitary workers started cleaning streets and roads on Christmas Day and were crying with tears “ Listen to our Voice Masihia” “ Free us from slavery” “Why it is Black Christmas for us”

The All Christian Community Alliance ACCA team started video recording of crying Christians who were cleaning streets and weeping but Sanitary Inspector Attique Butt called other Muslims and snatched camera and took out cassette and threatened ACCA team of dire consequences.

The DCO instead of listening to Christian employees directed police to register case against Christian employees and 5 other Christians. In FIR number 908/2009, under section 186 and 427 Pakistan Penal Code registered in Pakpattan City Police Station have charged ACCA leaders Sarfraz Masih, Nadeem Hameed, Sunny Barkat, Rawal Barkat and Hamed Masih while Christian employees Daniel Masih, Saleem Masih, Sarfraz Masih and others have been charged.

Mr. Javeed Sahotra Advocate, President of ACCA have strongly condemned torture of Christian employees and enforced working on official Christmas holidays.

CONTINUED:

He appealed to Chief Minister of Punjab to take action and cancel FIR against innocent poor Christian employees.

Dr. Nazir S Bhatti, President of Pakistan Christian Congress PCC expressed grave concern on broad day light beating by Muslim Sanitary Inspector and treating Christian employees like bonded labour on Christmas Day.

“Listen voice of voiceless Christians in Pakistan being treated like slaves by Muslims in every walk of life that we are human beings not animals, stop oppression and persecution and give us due equal rights until it is too late” said Nazir Bhatti

Nazir Bhatt said Christians of Pakistan were demanding FIR against Muslim Attackers of Kalar Kahar on injuring 65 Christians on Christmas day but not any FIR was lodged while in Pakpattan Christians were beaten and charged in FIR by Muslims.

Nazir S Bhatti, Chief of PCC urged Chief Minister of Punjab to withdraw false FIR against Christians and take immediate action against Mohammad Attique Butt and TNO Mohammad Aslam Gujar of Pakpattan TMA.

Islam is too intolerant and violent towards others for it to be reformed. It has to be militarily defeated like Nazism and fascism

The large-scale sexual trafficking in women and girls as young as five years old is, I think, a rather serious problem. But, hey, that's me.

How nice of Rabbi Wolpe to tell us what is definitively “the overriding human rights issue of our time.” I guess it’s not open for discussion. The rabbi declares that “the eradication of the sexual slave trade of women” is numero uno. Really? I would have voted for the removal of tyrannical government suppression of freedom of speech, assembly, press, and religion – the First Amendment rights – as the primary issue of today. That affects the peoples of China, Iran, North Korea, Burma, central Asia, much of the Middle East and Africa. But that’s only a couple billion folks. I’m sure, given the rabbi’s certainty, that the slave trade must involve gazillions of hapless women.

Just as the rabbi elevates the eradication of slavery – a cause that everyone agrees is important – into something of supreme importance, so he raises the matter of Islamic intolerance into the key issue in Islam today. But the rabbi’s framing of the conflict as pluralism and moderation versus extremism and intolerance misses the point of why the world is so concerned about the future of Islam.

Intolerance is not always a vice, and tolerance is not always a virtue. I am highly intolerant of Nazis, but I don’t go around blowing them up! Religious intolerance can take many non-violent, non-coercive forms: denunciation, excommunication, shunning, defunding. That sort of intolerance is legitimate, and we need not be concerned with it. Freedom of association also implies the freedom of dissociation. But when intolerance takes the form of imprisonment, burning at the stake, a fatwa authorizing assassination, stoning to death, or suicide bombing, then it’s time to become intolerant of such intolerance and to take action against it.

The rabbi closes his article by espousing the commonly held belief that the question is “how Islam copes with its own extremism.” Wrong! The question is how the world copes with Islamic extremism. After all, it is aimed not only at other Muslims. As we have seen throughout this decade, from 9/11 to the attempted suicide bombing of a plane over Detroit on Christmas Day, Islamist terrorists have targeted Christians, Jews, Hindus and others across the West as well as in the East. This is a global problem. Just as war is too important to be left to the generals, so the scourge of Islamist terrorism is too terrible and deadly to be left to Muslim moderates and enlightened mullahs. Combating evil is everyone’s job.

@Youseff:

Since you like Wikipedia, here is its description of the Genocide that the Pakistanis committed in 1971.
******************
"The minorities of Bangladesh, especially the Hindus, were specific targets of the Pakistan army.[10][36] There was widespread killing of Hindu males, and rapes of women. More than 60% of the Bengali refugees who fled to India were Hindus.[53] It is not exactly known what percentage of the people killed by the Pakistan army were Hindus, but it is safe to say it was disproportionately high.[54] This widespread violence against Hindus was motivated by a policy to purge East Pakistan of what was seen as Hindu and Indian influences. The West Pakistani rulers identified the Bengali culture with Hindu and Indian culture, and thought that the eradication of Hindus would remove such influences from the majority Muslims in East Pakistan.[55]

R.J. Rummel has stated states that

The genocide and gendercidal atrocities were also perpetrated by lower-ranking officers and ordinary soldiers. These “willing executioners” were fueled by an abiding anti-Bengali racism, especially against the Hindu minority. “Bengalis were often compared with monkeys and chickens. Said General Niazi, ‘It was a low lying land of low lying people.’ The Hindus among the Bengalis were as Jews to the Nazis: scum and vermin that [should] best be exterminated. As to the Moslem Bengalis, they were to live only on the sufferance of the soldiers: any infraction, any suspicion cast on them, any need for reprisal, could mean their death. And the soldiers were free to kill at will. The journalist Dan Coggin quoted one Punjabi captain as telling him, "We can kill anyone for anything. We are accountable to no one." This is the arrogance of Power.
—R.J. Rummel, Death by Government[56]"
************************

Pakistanis used to justify the killing of muslim Bangalis by saying that the Bengalis were half hindus anyway. The hatred for the Kaafir (non-muslims) is very deeply embedded in Islam, and the only way to deal with it is to get muslims to look at it, to face it and to deal with it honestly. The denial that you exhibit is the same that the muslim turks exhibit when confronted with the genocide of the christian armenians, or the egyptians when confronted with the treatment of the Copts, or the Sudanese when confronted with the killings of the southern sudanese christians.

I am a Kafir because I was born a muslim, but I learned enough to see it for what it really is. Freeing myself from Islam was the most difficult thing I have ever done. I use the "moniker" to remind myself of the hate that Allah spews against Kaafirs, his own creation, on literally every page of the Quran.

DanielintheLionsDen,

Have you not been following the conversation Im having with Kafir or are you being deliberately ignorant? The question Kafir asked me was why cant a Christian be a head of State in Pakistan. I pointed out to him that such restrictions exist even in Secular European countries like UK where the Head of State (Queen or King) has to belong to a particular faction of Christianity to qualify for the seat. So if Prince Charles converts to Islam today he will automatically be thrown out of his status as crown prince or whatever he is called in UK. So its not your simple case of children of queen being the King automatically. They have to be Christians first. Do you remember how wildly hysterical American acted when it was even suggested (wrongly) that Obama might be a muslim. He had to issue several clarifications that he wasn't a muslim still a sizeable number of American continued to believe that he was a closet muslim, as if being a muslim was the greatest sin of all.

You obviously sound like an athiest to me. Why do you believe Im obliged to prove my religion and existence of God to you? How do you know there is no God? How do you prove that an algae can transform into a dinosaur? How do you prove that the Universe and everything inside it just came out of nothing and not by design?

You only have to look at yourself in the mirror to find out whose being obtuse and rancorous!~

Killing of gays is abhorrent whether it be done by a Christian fanatic in USA or a muslim fanatic in Iran.

Do you believe its ok to punish innocent civilians for the (percieved) sins of their leaders by dropping Nuclear Bombs, Daisy Cutters, Napalms etc on them?

Yasseryousufi

In the United Kingdom, only members of the royal family, that is, the children of the sitting monarch, that is, Queen Elizabeth's children and grandchildren are eligible to be King. What is so hard to understand about that? You are being deliberately obtuse, aren't you?

Obtuse, bitter, and rancorous. Not a good image to portray of Islam, which already has such bad PR in the West.

Just because there are a billion Moslems in the world, how does that prove anything about righteousness? It does not.

How do you know Islam is true? How do you know that Allah exists? What do you consider proof? Merely quoting from the Koran is not proof.

How do you know the things that you believe to be true, really are true? Will you not allow for any modern concept of the cosmos, the age of the earth, the evolution of life? Do you at least acknowledge the reality of quantum physics, from which the very real existence of nuclear weapons has arisn?

What do you think of the naked human body, and of sex? Are you compulsively prudish? Do you blame women for arousing feelings of lust in men?

And what to you think about gay people? Should they be executed? Should they be beheaded? What of beheading? of capital punishment, in general? of war? is war good? do you believe in war?

Kafir,

You have all these numbers whose sources you never provide. If its just coming from you it has gutter credibility because you are an obvious Islam hater as is evident by the moniker you choose. So lets have a credible source for all these statistics you post.

"If Prince Charles does convert to Islam, it is not obvious that he is prohibited by constitution from becoming the Monarch because there is no constitution."

What kind of mumbo jumbo constitution (No Constitution) is that? So what do we blame this discrimination muslims face in UK on? Racism? Culture? Aren't you so obviously one sided in your criticism?

Like the typical ignorant evangelical idiot, you post Quranic Verses taken from hate islam websites and post them here without putting in the context. I dont think I have anything to argue with you further. You're steeped in hatred of a belief system that is adhered to by more than a billion people and respected by many more. All this hatred is eventually gonna consume you. But yea if you really gotta spread hate and lies.....go on doing that~!

@Youssef:

"You're stuck in percentages! I quoted you the exact number of Hindus and Muslims who migrated to India and Pakistan. The number of hindus living in Pakistan plus the overall population was a lot less than in India. Hence the bloated percentages."

Relying upon wikipedia does not give you the whole picture does it? You got the numbers from Wikipedia but that article does not tell very much about what the population distribution was before Partition and what happened after it. For that you have dig a little deeper. Look up the Census figures. The fact remains that even after the exchange of population, the non-muslims were about 20% of the population of what is now Pakistan (West Pakistan before the creation of Bangladesh). Now they constitute less than 2% of the population. By comparison the muslim population of Kaafir India has increased.

"Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. UK is a Secular Country. Doesn't Christianity discriminate against muslims by not letting them become King or Queen of England?"

UK does not have a written constitution. UK has a history where the Monarch is the head of the Church of England. It is not "Christianity" that prevents a catholic, or a muslim, or a sikh from becoming King or Queen of England. If Prince Charles does convert to Islam, it is not obvious that he is prohibited by constitution from becoming the Monarch because there is no constitution.
The issue that you are not facing is why does an "Islamic Republic" not allow a non-muslim to be the ruler. You may be for the change, but what is the origin of this discrimination that it is part of the constitution of ALL exiting "Islamic Republics".
*******************
002.120
YUSUFALI: Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.
004.144
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! Take not for friends unbelievers rather than believers: Do ye wish to offer Allah an open proof against yourselves?
005:055
SHAKIR: Only Allah is your Vali and His Messenger and those who believe, those who keep up prayers and pay the poor-rate while they bow.
************************

About the Wall Streeters and their bonuses?
-----------------------------------
Thus asks the bastard Whistling. But shouldn't it be asking this on one of the Christian/Catholic web sites? I only thus query since the recipients are his co-religionists, that is Kelley at al, who already earned 9 million dollars, pre-bonus, that is.

I guess the rabbi could comment on how the Christians (generically speaking are bleeding us dry), what with the bonuses their compadres in Congress have done nothing about, what with giving their co-religionists our tax revenues for the next ten years, on top or the bailouts the Christians have already taken from us.

Yes those Wall Street Christian bastard do-religionists of the bastard Whistling have been doing quite well. Not so the rest of us.

Perhaps, the rabbi will take this up, but I doubt it. Again the bastard Whistling would do better to address his concerns to one of his co-religionists.

Then he might consider the benefits of working for a living.

Gee, look what floated in from the swamp, the bastard Whistling.

Was wondering when the gunk tide would come in.

Where is the Islamic Martin Luther?

We are all desperately waiting.

In its Fundamentalist resistance to a modern paradigm of the life, the world, and the very nature of physical existence, I believe that Islam is becoming increasingly nihilistic, seeking to bring down and destroy all that is not Islamic.

A Fundamentalist religious paradigm is in stark contrast to reality. It must give way, or shatter.

Which will it be?

Whistling

Oh shut-up!

I'm so sick of "let's blame the Jews for everything."

It's boring.

The goals of Zionism are a fait-accompli. It is not even a word any more, at least not one that is commonly understood in the West.

In Western Europe and North America, among all credible people, anti-Jew is synonymous with Adolph Hitler's Nazi Germany. I don't really think the association of the Islamic cresent with the Hitler's death-swastika is really a good PR move.

Islam is clueless.

Secularism is the answer to this war between people of different faiths.

What a waste of time to keep arguing about a construct that has proven to be so destructive.

Do such as Wolpe think that a deluge, a huge deluge of his ilk screaming and ranting against Islam...

will somehow change the subject of
anti-semitism rising everywhere?

And, incidently the editors/rabbi can censor posts here easily (my first such)
but it isn't as though the world doesn't notice the savagery of Israel, of Gaza, Lebanon, etc. And it will just be
posted elsewhere, with bigger readership.

The 'superior' rabbi doesn't worry

about the soul of the savage Jews while in Gaza, in Lehbanon cluster bombing? On the West bank stealing land and water and killing?

About the Wall Streeters and their bonuses?

About all the cliches of history coming true? HE has nothing at all to teach his own? Just about the soul of the "other"?

It seems to me that Pakistani Muslims are not observing their religion teaching at all?
This is a fact, if whatever have written above is true?
This behaviour is sourced from sactarian fashion, not from Islam" Any Muslim, Whoever oppresses Dimmi is my enemy till the judgment day" The Prophet Mohammad said.
I agree if Pakistan Muslims behave as such, they don't fellow their religion teaching, they are thugs far away from this nice religion and its requirement" Don't force any body to imbrace Islam" Qura'an 2:220 or so, I can't remeber the exact number. That some of the nice thing I can remember, it is, in fact, a fantastic religion?
I am not Muslim, but I am on my way to become one. I studied a lot about this great religion, for that I am amazed to have such religion among us, but because of our ignorance & some of Muslims bad performance, furthers us to make so many ellosions to turn people away from thiking about studying and finding out about the treasures that Islam contains. It contains good pages for the better life and hefty rewards for beleivers after death ?

The 'superior' rabbi doesn't worry

about the soul of the savage Jews while in Gaza, in Lehbanon cluster bombing? On the West bank stealing land and water and killing?

About the Wall Streeters and their bonuses?

About all the cliches of history coming true? HE has nothing at all to teach his own? Just about the soul of the "other"?

I think a simplistic explanation is the radicals or extremists eventually become what they hate the most. Did we ourselves not become torturers while condemning Saddam Hussein for crimes against humanity.

A pagan (according to the old definition) from Syria converted to Christianity and eventually became a Saint. He wrote the Jews had become tools of the Devil eventually crucifying the Savior. This Saint through his psalms wrote that the Aryans were to become the new Satan helpers and leading so to believe this Saint predicted the rise of the Third Reich around 500ad.

Current radicals believe their actions are God ordained and blessings thereof. How does one come about believing that murdering innocent Westerners is goodness in action ? My only explanation is that Evil has once again led the masses astray.

Cults as in the Occult, are self destructive. Terrorists with geo-political or religious violent extremist activism through the radicalization of vulnerable candidates eventually become rejected by a civilized world. There is little or no sympathy for radicals beyond their own cloisters. And the cloister itself denies Evil doing in its bizarre and isolated condition.

Moderates or Reformists in the Arab world are still very conservative by our standards. Our Hardliners in Congress say "no" to everything. Many Arab Countries must still say "yes" to Sharia Law. While Gnostics and Mystics are rejected as the Church and Theocracies can only survive as being the Ultimate Authority in Godly matters regardless of hatred and oppression of the Spirit of Mankind itself.

I just can't get enough of these "my superstitious belief system isn't nearly as bad as your superstitious belief system" arguments.

'They Want to Destroy Christians'
Spasm of Religious Violence Leaves a Pakistani Minority in Mourning, Frustration

By Joshua Partlow
Monday, August 3, 2009

GOJRA, Pakistan, Aug. 2 -- They do not want to bury the Christians. They want the nation to see them.

By nightfall Sunday, hundreds of residents of the Christian enclave here stood in defiant vigil around seven particleboard coffins neatly aligned on the train tracks that run through town. They had demands: Until the government investigates the killings and finds those responsible, they will not remove the bodies.

Police waited warily in the street. A man on a loudspeaker bellowed the villagers' sentiments, which included anger at provincial authorities for not stopping the killings.

"Death to the Punjab government!"

A spasm of religious violence came to this rural town in the shape of an angry Muslim mob Saturday morning. The Muslims marched to avenge what they believed was the desecration of a Koran one week earlier. When it was over, dozens of houses were torched and Faith Bible Pentecostal Church lay in ruins. Two villagers were shot dead, residents said. Five others, including two children, burned alive.

Killing has become commonplace in Pakistan. But this attack startled the country both for its ferocity and for its stark message to religious minorities. Many saw the violence as further evidence of the growing power of the Taliban and allied Islamist militant groups in Punjab province, home to about half of Pakistan's population.

"They have made up their minds to crush Christianity. They always call us dogs of America, agents of America," said Romar Sardar, an English teacher from the area. "There has been no protection by the police. Nothing."

The conflict apparently began with a wedding. On the evening of July 25, a wedding procession for a Christian couple passed through the nearby village of Korian, according to a police report. Revelers danced and threw money in the air, as is local custom. In the morning, a resident told police he had picked up scraps of paper on the ground and found Arabic writing. "We examined them, and it was the pages from the holy Koran," the man said in the report.

Four days later, the accused, a member of the wedding party named Talib Masih, faced a meeting of local elders, who demanded that he be punished. Instead of repenting, the report said, he denied the desecration, and as a result, "the whole Muslim population was enraged." The house burning began that night and then quieted down until Saturday morning.

That day, Riaz Masih, 68, a retired teacher, grew increasingly worried as a crowd gathered, chanting anti-Christian slogans and cursing Americans. He locked his house and rushed with his wife and children to the home of a Muslim friend nearby. The crowd, some wearing black veils and carrying guns, turned down Masih's narrow brick alley near the train tracks and into the Christian Colony, according to several witnesses. Residents and marchers threw rocks at each other, and gunfire broke out. Using what residents described as gasoline and other flammable chemicals, the mob torched Masih's house.

"We have nothing left," he said, standing in the charred remains of his living room, his daughter's empty jewelry box at his feet. "We are trying to face this in the name of Jesus Christ. The Bible says you cannot take revenge."
On Sunday, the scenes of wreckage and dismay played out in house after house. Residents tossed burned blankets and clothing, broken televisions, and charred beds into heaps on the street. Fruit seller Iqbal Masih, 49, stepped over his mangled carts on his patio and tried to assess what was left of his daughter's dowry. The armoire, a refrigerator, the bedding were burned; the $675 for furniture had disappeared.

"I am out of my mind. I can't look," he said. "They have subjected us to severe cruelties. May God show them the right path."

At least four of the dead came from a single house. As the mob approached, a bullet struck Hamid Masih, a builder, in the head as he stood in his doorway, said his son, Min Has. Has heaved his father onto a motorcycle and drove him to a hospital, while the rest of the family members crowded in a back bedroom. The house began burning, and smoked billowed into the rooms. At least three other relatives, including 5- and 8-year-old siblings, died in the flames, according to residents. "There was fire everywhere, and it was impossible for them to get out," Has said.

"I know one thing. They want to destroy Christians," said Atiq Masih, 22, a janitor who was shot in the right knee. "They were attacking everything."

Christians, who make up about 2 percent of the Punjab population, have been targeted in other recent cases. In June, a mob attacked Christian homes in the Kasur district of Punjab for allegedly dishonoring the prophet Mohammed. In Pakistan, which has strict laws against blasphemy, people can be imprisoned for life or put to death for insulting Islam.

Residents in Gojra said that this was the first incident of its kind in the town and that Christians and Muslims have long lived alongside one another without serious problems. They blamed Muslim clerics for inciting anger over the Koran incident in mosque sermons and accused the Taliban and the militant group Sipah-e-Sahaba of involvement in the attack.

"The provincial government is not accepting that a large part of Punjab is suffering from religious intolerance due to the Taliban and religious outfits," said Peter Jacob, executive secretary of the National Commission for Justice and Peace, which issues an annual report on religious minorities in Pakistan. "They have been very negligent. This conflict was brewing for three days, and they were not receptive. They were not taking it seriously."

Pakistan's president and prime minister have called for investigations into the violence. By Sunday, police and paramilitary troops had taken up positions in the town. Provincial authorities said they have already made arrests and registered cases against 800 people. Federal Minister for Minorities Shahbaz Bhatti denied that any Koran had been desecrated.

Police in Gojra said the violence Saturday was beyond their control.

"It happened all of a sudden. The police that were here were too few in number to stop it," said policeman Kashif Sadiq. "It's not fair to assume they let this happen intentionally."

Special correspondents Shaiq Hussain and Aoun Sahi contributed to this report.

Kafir,

You're stuck in percentages! I quoted you the exact number of Hindus and Muslims who migrated to India and Pakistan. The number of hindus living in Pakistan plus the overall population was a lot less than in India. Hence the bloated percentages.

You aren't reading my posts attentively. Thats a turnoff for me. Pakistan is an Islamic Republic. UK is a Secular Country. Doesn't Christianity discriminate against muslims by not letting them become King or Queen of England? But for the record, I am for the amendment in the Constitution for allowing Christian to become a head of state. There is infact a motion that is going to be moved in the parliament in this regard. Lets hope for the best.

Wow.....you dont even know what you're talking about. Ofcourse they can compete alongside muslims for University admissions. The quota is in addition to those who get into college on merit to promote education amongst minorities. geez....the ignorance on these blogs is breath taking! Yea you tell me what happens to the sibling that converts to Islam with regards to inheritence? lets hear it Mr. expert on Islam and Pakistan!

FROM ASIA NEWS

PAKISTAN

Some 20 million Christians to mark ‘black day’ against persecution in Pakistan
Fareed Khan

Activists, minority lawmakers and religious leaders are united in peaceful protest against the country’s blasphemy laws. This is their response to fundamentalist attacks and their way to get the Pakistan government to repeal the laws. Amnesty International backs the fight for minority rights in Pakistan.

Lahore (AsiaNews) – Today is a ‘black day’, a day of protest for some 20 million Christians in Pakistan and around the world who want the country’s blasphemy laws repealed for being a virtual “constitutional genocide”. The event will include a number of actions promoted by religious leaders and activists across the country as a way to respond to attacks by fundamentalists.

As part of this Nazir S Bhatti, president of the Pakistan Christian Congress (PCC), launched an appeal to the US government and the European Union to press upon the Pakistani government the need to repeal the blasphemy law and ensure the peace and safety of the country’s Christian community. For him today is not ‘Minority Day’ as announced by the government but a “black day’ to mark anti-Christian violence.

For Peter Jacob, executive secretary of the Catholic Church’s National Commission for Justice and Peace (NCJP), a number of additional initiatives are planned over the next few days, involving a variety of Christian groups as well as activists and leading members of civil society.

Today for instance minority lawmakers and administrators will attend prayer meetings and religious functions.

Tomorrow evening all Christian denominations will take part in a memorial Mass in Lahore’s Naulakha Church to honour the victims of the Gojra massacre.

On 18 August civil society groups will hold a protest in Lahore against religious extremism and the blasphemy laws.

The NCJP is planning a seminar on ‘Extremism and the Law’ for tomorrow and has launched a signature campaign to repeal the blasphemy laws.

In a recent statement Amnesty International has expressed its support for Pakistani Christians.

In its press release the human rights organisation called on the authorities in Islamabad to “to take meaningful action to protect religious minorities which have increasingly been the target of religiously-motivated attacks and persecution.”

“To this end,” the statement said, “the Pakistan government should introduce a comprehensive education programme, at all levels of society, which promotes equality and respect for the diversity of beliefs in Pakistan”.

@Youssef:

What do you think you will achieve by trying to fool yourself or others? You like wikipedia, so here is from that source:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism_in_Pakistan

"In August 1947, at the end of British Raj, the population percentage of Hindus in what is today in Pakistan was perhaps as high as 15-20%, but would drop to its current total of less than 2% in the years since independence. According to the 1998 Pakistan Census, caste Hindus constitute about 1.6 percent of the total population of Pakistan and about 6.6% in province of Sindh. The Pakistan Census separates Schedule Castes from the main body of Hindus who make up a further 0.25% of national population[3]"

It is the reason given for preventing non-muslims from being President or Prime Minister that is the kicker. The Muslims of Pakistan quote the Quran to justify the discrimination against the non-muslims. It is Allah commanding the muslims to not take non-muslims, christians, jews, etc as friends or protectors that underlie the law of Pakistan. The hate against the non-muslims springs directly from the Quran.

No dhimma laws in Pakistan? What is the criteria for admissions into Pakistani Universities for a christian or a hindu? Can they compete for admission alongside Muslims or do they have to compete for a few seats reserved for Non-muslims? Do you know how many seats are reserved for non-muslims for your various Universities? Why don't you look into inheritance laws for the non-muslims in Pakistan? What happens to inheritance rights of the siblings if one of the offspring of non-muslims converts to Islam in Pakistan? Where does that discriminatory law arise if not from the laws of Dhimma?

Here, again, is the link for the full-text article I posted below on the plight of female minorities in Pakistan, written by an award-winning journalist. If you scroll down to the bottom of the article, you will find other sources of information. I will post a bibliography shortly. In the interim, below the link for Women's News Network, I have posted one for Human Rights Watch provides additional information on the plight of minorities in Pakistan and other Muslim countries.

(For info. on the Yemeni Jews, see my earlier post and use google.)
===========================================
Women's News Network

http://womennewsnetwork.net/about/
==========================================
Human Rights Watch

http://www.hrw.org/en/search/apachesolr_search/dalit+pakistan

Halozcel! You replied! I cant believe this. You could be human afterall. Sadly your dumb reply doesn't speak much of your intellect. You didnt even read my post correctly. I said one of those libraries held half a million books. I didnt say all of them held half a million each. I quoted that figure from a documentary aired on Discovery Channel (Im sure you wouldn't have ventured into such sources of knowledge in your life) whose link I also put below. If you ever get time from reading hate websites on Islam try to look for the word 'Reconqusita' and 'Spanish Inquisition' Your Christian heroes conducted one of the most brutal ethnic cleansing in Spain wiping out Muslim and Jews along with all traces of their civilizations and that included libraries. I dont know about the libraries of Damascus but if you read the history of those times, Baghdad had the largest library in the world that was sadly destroyed by the Mongol Horde.

What kind of study have you done on Islam? A Bachelorate? Doctorate maybe? There are a lot of people roaming around these blogs spreading hatred of Islam through their lies. Most of them like you have no credibility and a person with even basic knowledge of Islam can call them out for their lies. So there's nothing wrong with no mosques for muslims decree?

I agree with notinDC1. The Young Turks, as I understand it, unleashed the Armenian Holocaust not because the Armenians were Christian, but because they were not ethnic Turks. While the Ottomans may have had religion as one of the major reasons for their pogroms against the Armenians, the Young Turks deliberately rejected religion as a unifying force for their vision of a new Turkey. Using religion would have allowed non-Turkish Muslims to be full citizens of the "new" Turkey. That would have continued the old Ottoman Empire in another guise, with Arab Muslims as full citizens. The Young Turks wanted to jettison the Arabs, following their plan to create an ethnocracy of Turks. The Armenians were singled out for mass extermination because they were not ethnic Turks.

PS: The Post says "David Wolpe [was] Named the No.1 Pulpit Rabbi in America."

Pulpit Rabbi? What is that? Sounds a bit derogatory to me.

Meant to write:

Here, again, is the link for the full-text article I posted below on the plight of female minorities in PAKISTAN
==================
Was distracted by yasseryousufi's anti-Hindu rant, sorry.

Here, again, is the link for the full-text article I posted below on the plight of female minorities in India, written by an award-winning journalist. If you scroll down to the bottom of the article, you will find other sources of information. I will post a bibliography shortly. In the interim, below the link for Women's News Network, I have posted one for Human Rights Watch provides additional information on the plight of minorities in Pakistan and other Muslim countries. (For info. on the Yemeni Jews, see my earlier post and use google.)

Women's News Network

http://womennewsnetwork.net/about/
==========================================
Human Rights Watch

http://www.hrw.org/en/search/apachesolr_search/dalit+pakistan

AKAFIR,

Not sure about the veracity of the statistics you provide. But this is from Wikipedia,

"Massive population exchanges occurred between the two newly-formed states in the months immediately following Partition. Once the lines were established, about 14.5 million people crossed the borders to what they hoped was the relative safety of religious majority. Based on 1951 Census of displaced persons, 7,226,000 Muslims went to Pakistan from India while 7,249,000 Hindus and Sikhs moved to India from Pakistan immediately after partition."

That statistic includes hindus of Bangladesh too btw. No Dhimmism around here these days. Thats another of your mad televangelist's fantasies.

Whats wrong with that? Pakistan is an Islamic Republic with 97% Muslims Population. Do you remember the hysteria in USA when it was even stupidly mentioned that Obama is infact muslim and might take oath on the Quran. UK is considered a Secular country, but its head of state either king or queen has to be a Protestant. Otherwise he/she will have to forego the throne. It has happened in the past.

Safiyah,

Allah said *Read*
Bedouin answered *I cant read,I'm Unlettered*

Why Allah said *Read* to illitrate man ?
Doesnt Allah know he is Unlettered ?

Dear Safiyah,
You say *We as Muslims....*
Who are you ? How can you speak in the name of Whole Muslims ?
Islam/submission says *Five times Arabic Pray(three times indeed) in a day* But,95 percent of muslims dont do. Right?
Submission says *Ramadan Fasting* But,75-80 percent of muslims dont observe. Correct ?
You say *Human develops in mother womb* But,Book of Allah says *sperm comes from male's Ribs* Is this Exacting Detail ?

Yasser,
Let the Readers decide.
**There are 70 Libraries(does muslim know what Library is) in Cordoba,just one of them had 500,000 books** 500,000x70=35 Million Books ? yes,35 million books.Do you,yourself believe this Myth ?
Where are those Books ?
Library of Celsus,2000 year-old building in Anatolia,burnt but still can be seen and visited by millions of tourists.Where are those Libraries Ruins in Spain ?
If there were 70 Libraries in Cordoba,there should be 100 ones in Damascus,where are those Libraries ? Where are those 50 million Books ? Where are those 100 million Books in Egypt and Iraq ?

I replied to your question,but,you ask again.
Yes,there is no mosque in Vatican(it's not a City,a Special District of Roma),but there are many mosques in Roma and Italy.Do you want mosque in front of each muslim family house ? How many muslims are going to mosque regularely ?
As I wrote to Safiyah,most of muslims dont go to mosque.
Most of muslims are Nominal Ones,Unwillingly Muslims.Yes,absolutely.
And,Radical Muslims are at fight with Secular Muslims as well.

FArnazMansouri! You need help! Seriously! Stop embarrasing yourself with your halftruths. Specially if you consider yourself an academic. No one in his right mind can deny that life would be miserable for people belonging to the lowest tier of society in a third world country. The Christian Pakistani's like their Muslim Pakistani fellows belonging to the lowest tier do suffer a great deal. If you do a similar research on muslims belonging to the lowest strata of the society your finding wont be much different. You haven't yet proven that Christians are forced to become sweepers as you claimed.

@Yasser,

If you are a Pakistani, then you would know that by Pakistani Constitution, no non-muslim can ever be President or Prime Minister of Pakistan. Why was that required by "consensus" for the 1973 Constitution of Pakistan? That in itself and by itself should tell you something about how non-muslims are viewed within Islam.

@Yasser,
"So now you shift posts to building laws etc. when called out for your ignorance. Nice try."

It is obvious that you do not read what others write. Go back and see what I wrote. I did not shift any "posts".

Your explanation of the decimation of the minority population of Pakistan is silly at best, but actually attempt to hide evil essentially. Compare the demographics of India. Muslims were 9% in 1947 and are now close to 13% in 2009. Bangladesh was about 35% minority in 1947 and it is about 12% now. It is the inhumane treatment of the non-muslims under the laws of dhimma that are (and were) designed to force the non-muslims to convert to Islam that are responsible for the disappearance of the non-muslims in the muslim lands.

IN FAIRNESS, I would like to point out that Yasseryousufi is the only Pakistani I have come across who denies this hideous persecution, this oppressive caste that occurs all over Asia.

But his postings, as noted below, are arrogant, racist, supremacist, to which I might add hysterical.

Anyone interested in the plight of the oppressed religious minorities of Pakistan might want to read this article, which focuses on women. The link includes video evidence.
---------------------------------
Current dangers facing Christian minority women and girls

Under-reported cases of rape against Christian women have occurred. In 2000, the rape of seven Christian women on a bus to Lahore was viewed by the larger Pakistani (Muslim) public as a “deplorable act.” In August 2007, Christian Bishop Arif Khan and his wife were murdered in Islamabad. That same month seven churches and five Christian settlements received threatening letters.

The intimidation of abduction, rape or violence of women and girls from minority religious families adds greatly to their vulnerability. Any legal recourse with police or courts, in working Pakistani law in their favor, is often very limited.

“In the weeks after the Islamabad (March 17, 2002) attack (on the Protestant International Church), I talked to many Pakistani Christians—Catholics, Protestants and Anglicans—in private homes and at dinners and church socials. Several discerned what they described as a larger pattern of violence directed not only at Christians, but at other religious minorities throughout the country,” said David Penault, associate professor at Santa Clara University, California, US.

There have been a number of reported cases of forced marriages of girls from religious minority communities who are under the age of 15. After separation from their family, abductions are framed with the pretext that their conversion to Islam was the reason for their kidnapping. In some cases, there may be a possibility that these are unidentified sex-trafficking kidnappings, but no study to date has been done to confirm this belief yet.

CONTINUED:
The list of abuse against poor Christian minority women and girls is long.

“Law enforcement personnel abused religious minorities in custody,” said the 2008 International Religious Freedom Report by the US Department of State. “Security forces and other government agencies did not adequately prevent or address societal abuse against minorities,” continued the report. “Discriminatory legislation and the Government’s failure to take action against societal forces hostile to those who practice a different religious belief fostered religious intolerance, acts of violence, and intimidation against religious minorities.”

Legislative tightening, Blasphemy Laws and Hadood Ordinances

In a reversal of restrictions under laws covering accusations by a husband against his wife in adultery, the Protection of Women (Criminal Laws Amendment) Act, had the intention to free 2,500 women from Pakistan jails in 2006. Unfortunately, this was not completed. Following this improvement, a more conservative interpretation of the law, through Shar’ia based legislation, was given more emphasis, causing greater restrictions in the courts.

As legal doors closed again more tightly, Christian women suffering from extreme poverty were left dangling in a forgotten field of legal ambiguity, no protection and “non-personhood.”

Even with the measured 2006 attempt to ease the 1979 Hadood Ordinances, which now allow women to report domestic violence and rape with one instead of the previously required three male witnesses, women still do not feel safe stepping forward to press their case. Blasphemy laws, that sanction anyone criticizing Islam also inflicts intimidation under the sentence of death by stoning. Stoning as a sentence in Pakistan’s courts has been used as punitive measures in quarrels against neighbors and against religious minorities.

For protection, minority women and their families, whether poor or middle class, often try to hide or mask their religious beliefs for safety at work and in public.

“Pakistan’s blasphemy laws are so vaguely formulated that they encourage, and in fact invite, the persecution of religious minorities or non-conforming members of [the] Muslim majority,” said human rights advocates, Amnesty International.

CONTINUED:

Under reported cases of rape and torture of religious minority women and girls presents an ever present human rights crisis. Police corruption, along with abysmal Pakistani prison and jail conditions, creates an atmosphere of intimidation and non-accountability.

“Religious minorities need more than just fair treatment under the law, they also require visible cooperation from the police and authorities, to prevent mob justice taking over,” said Settlement Director, Nasir Saeed of (CLAAS) Center for Legal Aid Assistance, which has an office in Lahore and London.

In Oct 2007, Dr. Ms. Asma Jahangir, the now UN Special Rapporteur for UN Commission on Human Rights said, “The NWFP (North-West Frontier Province, Pakistan) presents a disturbing picture of religious militancy that is increasingly manifesting itself in vigilante actions against the population and creating widespread fear… The government has continuously refused to heed complaints and warnings from both the public and civil society organizations and has adopted a policy of appeasement of militants.”

CONTINUED:
“The government has chosen to look the other way when the militants have blown up girls’ schools and video shops, threatened teachers, students, doctors, nurses, NGO workers and barbers,” added Jahangir.

In Pakistan, there’s a very high price to pay for poor Christian women and their families - all part of the minority. This video shows unliveable conditions in Islamabad’s French Quarter, a sordid slum where Dalit Christians try to survive. See this 11:16 min April 16, 2009, France24 News video.
____________________________________________

For more information on this topic go to:

Annual Report – Pakistan, 2009 – International States Commission on International Religious Freedom

Religious Minorities in Pakistan by Dr. Iftikhar H. Malik – Minority Rights Group International, 2002

State of the World’s Minorities 2008 – Pakistan – UNHCR, RefWorld

How wealth/poverty affects the treatment of Christian women in Pakistan by Anna-Joy Alves - International Development Department, School of Public Policy, The University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, United Kingdom, 2006

___________________________________________________________

2007 Pushcart prize nominee, Lys Anzia, is a humanitarian journalist working on women’s rights and advocacy issues worldwide. She is also Editor-At-Large for Women News Network – WNN and current executive director for World Voice International.

_______________________________________________

Sources for this article include ReliefWeb, UNESCO, USAID, BBC News, UN Girls Education Initiative, Asian Human Rights Commission, Emory University, In These Times, The World Bank, CNS – Catholic News Service, USCIS, WLUML, UNHCR, Sindh Today, PILDAT, Aljazeera News, USCIRF, ActionAid, CLAAS, US Department of State, The Catholic Voice, Minority Rights Group International, The Malaysian Insider, Riz Khan – Aljazeera TV, AFP news
________________________________________
©Women News Network – WNN 2009

Filed under Women News Network - WNN, Women's News, human rights news, women humanitarian news, women's advocacy, women's advocacy news, women's feminist news, women's global news, women's international news, women's rights news, women's world news

http://womennewsnetwork.net/2009/05/18/pcw812/

FarnazMansouri!

Nice try! Those Indian websites on Pakistan sure gonna be reliable. Kinda like a Nazi writing about Jews. Btw your so called research fails to prove that Christians are forced to become sweepers like you claimed.

AKafir,

So now you shift posts to building laws etc. when called out for your ignorance. Nice try. What about the building laws for muslims building mosques in Europe? Most muslims pray in empty warehouses or abandoned churches. How many Christians have to pray in warehouses here?

There was a shift of population when Pakistan and India were divided into two countries. Muslims of India were allowed to take Pakistani Nationality and Hindus of Pakistan were allowed to take Indian Nationality. This migration went on till the mid 60's. The number of people moving on both sides is approximately the same. Most of Pakistan's Hindu population used to live in East Pakistan. It is now a separate independent country known as Bangladesh. 12% Bangladeshis are Hindus.

Lets hear those laws you talk of. Im no expert on Egypt. Why does your country support the Dictator in Egypt btw?? Aren't you guys supposed to favor democracy? Why do you have to prop up these intolerant dictators in the Middle-East?

The rest of your rant is standard Rush Limbaugh hate speech and hence not worth responding to~!

Anyone interested to read more about the treatment of minorities in the muslim world should look at the IHEU reports on the various muslim countries.
****************
Here is an example for Copts in Egypt:
http://undhimmi.com/2009/09/26/when-will-egypt-stop-treating-christians-like-animals/

......
IHEU calls for all states to eliminate laws which require citizens to specify their religion on official documents and to permit all citizens to freely change their religion or belief without discrimination. It also calls on OIC member states in particular to end discrimination against non Muslims.

Non-Muslim citizens face universal discrimination and harsh treatment in the Muslim world. From Pakistan to Turkey, legal systems are stacked against them. Educational advantages and employment into prominent positions are denied them – almost invariably, they live on the fringes of society and struggle to keep their heads above water.

There is no worse example of this Muslim bigotry than Egypt. In addition to the treatment described above, Egyptians, particularly the minority Coptic Christians who form approx. 10% of the population, can expect their women and girls to be sexually assaulted and raped with impunity, kidnapped and forcibly converted to Islam and generally rated as fair game by Muslim males.

............
*******************

If you are unfamiliar with the treatment of non-muslims among the muslims in the OIC countries, please take the time and educate yourself. That knowledge is important to put the War in Islam in perspective.

Dear Supreme Being,

Please kill me soon. I'm sick of living in a miserable world infested with stupid idiots.

All we do is b!tch and moan and fight over every conceivable thing, mostly small and meaningless matters.

I'm tired of this festering mess; take me "home".

There is a huge body of information, huge and growing, on the Dalit of Pakistan, including several indefensible volumes, about which more later. In the meantime, those interested in the Christian and Hindu wretched of Pakistani earth, might follow the links posted below.

Silence about Pakistan's Dalits - IndiaRight.org : indian ...
Apr 9, 2006 ... Indiaright.org is owned, managed and edited by the Centre for National Renaissance (CNR). .... bringing together Bhangis or Lalbegis of the sweeper caste. ... Why this silence on the conditions of the Dalits of Pakistan? ...
www.indiaright.org/storyd.asp?id=170 - Cached - Similar -
#
Dalits In Pakistan Book Review By Yoginder Sikand
Sep 23, 2005 ... Countercurrents.org. Name of the Book: Hamey Bhi Jeeney Do: Pakistan ... Lacking money and resources, Dalits in Pakistan were unable to make ... Most Pakistani Dalits work as landless agricultural labourers and sweepers, ...
www.countercurrents.org/dalit-sikand230905.htm - Cached - Similar -
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Christian Women Face Unknown World In Pakistan (Pakistan)
Dalit Christian women who have been severely marginalized often suffer from a shortage ... One derogatory name which is used commonly in Pakistan is “sweeper” which refers ... To contact the Pluralism Project, email staff@pluralism.org. ...
pluralism.org/news/view/22062 - Cached - Similar -
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Combatting Caste - NI 380 - The Facts
Sunni Muslims of the Swat region in northern Pakistan have a system of social ... Traditional occupations: Sweepers, cleaners of toilets, drains and other dirty places. ... 1 National Campaign for Dalit Human Rights www.dalits.org ...
www.newint.org/issue380/facts.htm - Cached - Similar -
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Who are Dalits? & What is Untouchability? — Portal
Apr 8, 2009 ... Bangladesh: Methor community (traditionally sweepers and manual scavengers) ... Pakistan: Dalit community (like Dalits in India except in Muslim society there is no ... Phone: +91 - 11 - 25842249. E-mail: info@dalits.org.
www.ncdhr.org.in/ncdhr2/dalits.../dalits-untouchability - Cached - Similar -

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Christian minority women face unknown world in Pakistan « Women ...
May 18, 2009 ... One derogatory name which is used commonly in Pakistan is “sweeper” which refers to the “worst of all” – a dalit Christian. ...
womennewsnetwork.net/2009/05/18/pcw812/
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Dalits in Pakistan
In Pakistan , roughly 3 million is the Dalits Population. The SCs belong to various .... Others work as general labourers and sweepers in the Urban Areas. ...
www.dalitindia.com/guest/DalitsPak.htm
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Status of Dalits in Pakistan By Kalavanti Raja
May 19, 2009 ... Kalvanti raja desribes the status of Dalits rights in Pakistan in an ... Garment factories Shoe making/polishing Sweepers Government jobs ...
www.docstoc.com/.../Status-of-Dalits-in-Pakistan-By-Kalavanti-Raja
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Who are Dalits - Welcome to Navsarjan — Welcome to Navsarjan
Dalits are divided into leather workers, street sweepers, cobblers, .... in northern Pakistan also practices extreme forms of humiliation against Dalits, ...
navsarjan.org/navsarjan/dalits/whoaredalits

FarnazMasouri,

Ya just cant control yourself can ya? You crave for attention, thats why you need to provoke people with your unabashed lies. Wont work with me. I know you too well.

I've never said beating of any jews be they English, French or Italian is justified. Go read my post again. Take your medication if you're having reading clearly.

I've never said Quran is the refinement of Christianity or Judaism. I said Islam is the refined form of these two other Abrahamic religions as they follow a lot of similar traditions and rituals.I believe all Prophets from Adam to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus and Muhammad essentially brought the same message of goodness.

No one is forced to be a sweeper in Pakistan. Thats just one of your many zionist fantasy stories. Got any proof of that other than your dumb amateurish youtube videos?

It is EXTREMIST religions that has cultivated and warped the minds of many people in Societies and in Governments.

As with many people around the world, including the U.S., religious extremist propaganda has seeped into the minds of those that are most vulnerable, ignorant, easily influenced, socially depraved, and those wishing to control the masses through political processes.

It is religious extremist propaganda that has brainwashed the young, the old, the lost and the "weak and poor in spirit" when they seek to understand the meaning of life and the meaning of existence.

It is the views of both Muslim and Christian extremists for thousands of years that has instigated and incited fear, war, and hate around the world, because of their religious propaganda.

It is these same Muslim and Christian Extremists, who believe that their God is the only God and that their God is the true God of all mankind, based on what they have been told to believe, by their religious leaders.

In the mind of an Extremist, there is no room for understanding, no room to question religious authority, or to seek the truth, or to reason.

In the mind of a Religious Extremist, it is my religious beliefs that causes me to Kill others in the name of MY God.

Not your God, but MY God.

It was my God that promised Abraham that his descendants would become a Great Nation and from that Great Nation, a Nation of Many.

I hate and I kill in the name of my religious God.

@yasseryousufi,

Why don't you also list the laws about building churches in Turkey, Egypt, etc.? Temples in Pakistan: The non-muslim population of Pakistan in 1947 was about 20% and now in 60 short years it is less than 2%!! If you want a case study of the brutal treatment of minorities, it has to be Pakistan.

Why don't you list the laws derived from the Pact of Umar that still apply to the Copts of Egypt?

Denying facts these days is futile because information is redily accessible. Let anyone who wants to know how the non-muslims are treated in the muslim world, merely do a bit of "googling" as you have done and see for themselves.

The war is within Islam. It is mostly Muslims who are being killed by other Muslims, and it is also a fact that before the ritualistic killing the killers declare the other side "Kaafirs" (infidels, non-muslims, etc). The non-muslims among the muslims have always been less than second class citizens.

Islam, Judaism, Christianity--the "sky Gods" as Gore Vidal calls them are dangerous anachronisms. There was a time when they held forth something useful--a little compassion in the face of anarchy and cruelty even if it was only the ideal of such--but those times are long past.

Islam holds half of the people within its realm--women, in bondage if not physically for sure mentally and intellectually. It is also violent in many quarters (as a starter the first four out of five leaders of the religion after Muhammad met violent deaths), which, ironically was contrary to the goals of the Prophet to try to bring peace to barbarian tribes on the Arabian peninsula when he founded the religion.

Until these religions overwhelmingly succumb to the force of right reason and go the way of other past, discarded religions, humanity will face heightened perils. The same holds true where such a small proportion of the world's population holds so much of its wealth. Religions supposedly lends credence to the struggle for natural resources, space and food even it the struggle turns violent.

Religion and especially these religions will not lead us out of the wilderness but rather to the brink of disaster.

R. Wolpe,

Last on the Yemeni Jews. They are the end of a three-thousand-year old history.

What do you say, Rabbi? What do you say to the three million of us Middle Eastern Jews in exile?

What do you say to the Europeans who are being brutalized by Islamist lunatics?

Shall we gather together all our young men, Rabbi, boys such as those (brilliant students, both, btw.) who took matters into their own hands?

It WILL happen on its own. In the meantime, some objections by people like you to the endless psychological and physical mauling to which we are subjected would help.

Yasseryousufi has posted that it is right for Jews to be assaulted by Muslims in Europe since those Muslims object to certain policies of the government of Israel.

In an attempt to show him the lack of reason in his view, I told him that by his reasoning a free for all against Muslims in America was fully justified not only by the events of 9/11 but by the endless terrorist plots the US governement uncovers.

Yasseryousufi retained his view that the beating of little German, French, English, etc., girls, boys, of men and women is justified since they are Jewish!
-------------------------
This same blogger wrote that Muslims consider the Quoran to be a "refinement" (exact quote) of Christianity and Judaism.

When any Christian, Muslim, Jew, Hindu who thinks of his religion as a refinement of others is not one who surprises easily. Hence Yasseryousufi's belief that Jews are fair game for lunatics is unsurprising.
---------------------
Nor is his blaming of the Christians for the horror they suffer in Pakistan, millions of people, in a horror you would not believe, for their own unimaginable plight.

They are forced, from generation to generation, to be "sweepers," to clean the sewers with their hands. They are raped, beaten, killed with abandon.

But Yasseryousufi says it is their fault. Pakistan, he says, is tolerant of religious minorities.

Sure. Of course. Naturally. It has those values he embodies.

AKAFIR,

It would help if you and your like minded hate mongers learned to use google search before posting ignorant comments. My 5 minutes of research tells me that there are atleast 600 churches in Iran, and hundreds of churches in Turkey and Egypt (try wikipedia~!). In the Gulf states there are churches in Kuwait, Qatar and UAE.

There are many hindu temples in Pakistan as well as Gulf States (I have seen one in Muscat myself). Ofcourse there aren't any hindu temples in the rest of the Islamic world because there aren't any hindus there. Christian/Secular fanatics of Europe would tear down all the mosques if they had there way. There aren't many mosques around in the west anyway. Certainly not on the scale of churches in Islamic countries that according to you do not allow churches to be built.

"Treatment of the non-muslims in ALL of the 57 muslim countries is dismal without exception"

It would help if you cut down on watching Fox TV a bit and for a change roamed out of your village for an educated perspective.

R. Wolpe:

I have yet to read a word from you regarding the exile of the 355 Jews of Yemen.

As you know, there were, at one point 68,000, the majority of whom fled to Israel. The 350, villagers, shoe repairmen, carpenters, etc., none of whom speak Hebrew or English, for that matter, were in the last two years constantly harrassed by Islamists who raided their communities shouting "Convert or die!" Sound familiar?

It came to a screeching when Rabbi Moshe al-Nahar, thirty-one years old, was murdered by a military man who went on the boast about it. The man's family offered 25,000 US dollars in "blood money," but the young widow refused.

The silence in the media over the endless horrors perpetrated on Jews in the Middle East, now spreading to Europe, is radicalizing not only Sephardim but Askenazis, as well.

I wonder if you heard anything about an incident in Brooklyn, about which one can find nothing on the web. A synagogue was defaced and the police were not able to locate those who had done it. (LOL) The racists were three grown men, "identified" by two teenage boys who beat the three so badly that they wound up in the hospital.

Needless to say the synagogue's congregation was shocked. When one of the fathers asked his son why he had done it, his straightforward answer was that he was sick and tired of racism at school, in the media, and now on his block. Every day he walked passed the temple he was reminded of the relentless assaults of that discourse.

Evidently, the two boys had begun their exchange with the men by asking that they pay to restore the temple and turn themselves in to the police. The men hailed invective at the youths, and then attacked the boys.

Now, Yemen, like most of the rest of the Middle East is almost Judenrein. A doctor and her family left France for Israel a couple of weeks ago, sick of the antisemitism.

However, leaving is only one approach. Hospitalizing your enemy is clearly another.
A third is using words to stand up against injustice.

The Yemeni Jews, Rabbi?

@yasseryousufi: "There are 56 countries in the world that are considered muslim majority. Saudi Arabia is just one country that does not allow churches to be built. There is no such restriction in the rest of the countries."

There are restrictions of building churches in the countries of the Hijaz beside Saudi Arabia. Many other members of the OIC imposes extremely crippling restrictions on building non-muslim religious buildings including churches. These countries include the "secular" Turkey, and the modern Egypt, or Islamic Iran. Building of Hindu or Buddhist temples is forbidden in nearly all muslim countries. Malaysia, Bangladesh and Indonesia (the most tolerant of the muslim countries) where hindu temples do exist, the imams and the mullahs have been spearheading movements to tearing these temples down over the protests of the non-muslims. Treatment of the non-muslims in ALL of the 57 muslim countries is dismal without exception.

Below I have posted some highlights from the NT, the text of the believers in the Religion of Love. Highlights from MLJ, etc., will be posted later.

The NT, the Greek Testament, with its stick-figure Pharisees, who never existed, sought to replace the Tankh. It supercedes, as it were. This was followed by Quoran, which is the LAST.

Or not. There is also the Book of Mormon, for which finality may be made.

These historical replacements, these thefts of the another people' words, correcting, and seeking adherence to the conquerors' world view, are the words of Edward Said, the benchmarks of imperialism.

Displacement and genocide follow.

NT Highlights from Matthew

# Those who bear bad fruit will be cut down and burned "with unquenchable fire." 3:10, 12

# Jesus recommends that to avoid sin we cut off our hands and pluck out our eyes. This advice is given immediately after he says that anyone who looks with lust at any women commits adultery. 5:29-30

# Jesus says that most people will go to hell. 7:13-14

# Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire." 7:19

# "The children of the kingdom [the Jews] shall be cast out into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 8:12

# Jesus tells a man who had just lost his father: "Let the dead bury the dead." 8:21

# Jesus sends some devils into a herd of pigs, causing them to run off a cliff and drown in the waters below. 8:32

# Cities that neither "receive" the disciples nor "hear" their words will be destroyed by God. 10:14-15

# Families will be torn apart because of Jesus (this is one of the few "prophecies" in the Bible that has actually come true). "Brother shall deliver up the brother to death, and the father the child: and the children shall rise up against their parents, and cause them to be put to death." 10:21

# Jesus says that we should fear God who is willing and "able to destroy both soul and body in hell." 10:28

# Jesus says that he has come to destroy families by making family members hate each other. He has "come not to send peace, but a sword." 10:34-36

# Jesus condemns entire cities to dreadful deaths and to the eternal torment of hell because they didn't care for his preaching. 11:20-24

Continued:
# Jesus will send his angels to gather up "all that offend" and they "shall cast them into a furnace of fire: there shall be wailing and gnashing of teeth." 13:41-42, 50

# Jesus is criticized by the Pharisees for not washing his hands before eating. So, heir parents should be killed? It sure sounds like it. 15:4-7

# Jesus advises his followers to mutilate themselves by cutting off their hands and plucking out their eyes. He says it's better to be "maimed" than to suffer "everlasting fire." 18:8-9

# "And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors." 18:34

# In the parable of the marriage feast, the king sends his servants to gather everyone they can find, both bad and good, to come to the wedding feast. One guest didn't have on his wedding garment, so the king tied him up and "cast him into the outer darkness" where "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 22:12-13

# Jesus had no problem with the idea of drowning everyone on earth in the flood. It'll be just like that when he returns. 24:37

# God will come when people least expect him and then he'll "cut them asunder." And "there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth." 24:50-51

# The servant who kept and returned his master's talent was cast into the "outer darkness" where there will be "weeping and gnashing of teeth." 25:30

# Jesus tells us what he has planned for those that he dislikes. They will be cast into an "everlasting fire." 25:41

# Jesus says the damned will be tormented forever. 25:46

Ziadshrara!......thankyou for your kind words~!

The three (great) relgions battling it for the Truth are based on tribalism (Semitic:Arab/Jewish).
Christianity's apparent tolerance is actually a Western culture achievement. Western Culture is basically based on secular thinking and a refined behavior.

The struggle for the soul of Islam as well as foe the soul of what makes us human lies in believing and institutionalizing secularism.

Halozcel1 wrote,

**seeds of religious tolerance and secularism(does islam know what Secularism is) in Europe(only Spain) were sown by muslims(omayyad invaders)in Spain**

Myth,yes,completely Myth.
If they did in Spain,why couldnt they sow in their Land ? Omayyads were overthrown by muslim people because of unbearable oppression within 80-90 years.

------------------------------------

So this pseudo expert on Islam who spews his anti-islam garbage all over these blogs but never has the balls to respond when his idiotic comments are challenged, is telling us that the ommayyads were invaders and intolerant rulers!!! One doesn't expect much from the disciples of Rush Limbaugh, Pat Robertson etc. anyway. But if anyone cares to read the real history muslim rulers were infact welcomed by the locals to replace the impotent visigothic empire. Muslims introduced art and culture of the order that was never witnessed in Europe before. They introduced cutting edge technology in agriculture making spain the richest and most modern country in Europe and Cordoba its biggest and most cosmopolitan city. While the biggest library in Paris had just 9000 books, just one of Cordoba's 70 libraries had 500,000 books. Some of those books written by Arabs were still being all over Europe well into the 20th century. Ofourse most of these libraries were burnt along with buildings and all other signs of Islam's glorious rule by Isabela and Alfonso who are idolized as Christian heroes.

So yes the locals who converted to Islam in hordes did so simply because they found Islam as a superior ideology/culture to Christianity, just like the forefathers would have thought of Christianity in contrast to their previously held pagan beliefs. Those who are interested in learning about the muslim rule in Spain can check out this series of videos that has been made by western scholars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IPUOlcab-Po

***Yes,there is no mosque in Vatican City(it's not a City,only Special District of Roma),but there are mosques in Roma and Italy.
Yes,Mecca and Medina may be sacred(first,Secred City is not islamic term,Everywhere is sacred),but,What about Jeddah,Riyadh,Damman ?
1.5 million Indians are working in Saudia,is there only one Indian Temple ?
100,000 Westerners,is there only one Church in Jeddah or Damman ?

-------------------------------------------

There are 56 countries in the world that are considered muslim majority. Saudi Arabia is just one country that does not allow churches to be built. There is no such restriction in the rest of the countries. Let me ask you again, would you allow a mosque to be built in Vatican City? Btw Italian Governnment has decreed that no more mosques can be built anywhere in Italy anymore even though there are around a million muslims living in Italy. The Italian government argues that Muslims can "pray anywhere" and don't need a mosque.

@safiyah111: "Case in point, it was only recently that humans could prove to themselves how the human develops in his or her mother womb. ...; however, the Quran explained in exacting detail those stages fourteen hundred years ago."

Hogwash. Quran did not even get the initial physiology correct.
***********
Quran 86.005 to 007
SHAKIR: So let man consider of what he is created: He is created of water pouring forth,Coming from between the back and the ribs.

***************

The mental gymnastics that the Muslims undergo to explain how Allah got the source of semen and the prostatic fluids is absolutely mind blowing. So Saffiyah, why don't you tell which liquid is it that is "pouring forth" from between the ribs and the spine? And then look at the physiology of the ancient Greeks that was prevalent in the middle east in the 7th century (especially Galens and how they described the source of the body fluid responsible for procreation).

Safiyah111

Why should non-Muslims read the Koran and debate it? The very suggestion is, once again, a favorite Islamic past-time: proselytizing, which is, itself, a politically hostile practice.

If you think it is inappropriate for you to tell Christians how to reform their religion, then why is it appropriate to tell them to read the Koran and debate it?

I am no expert on Islam, but just in your short comment, look at what you have said:

"We as Muslims are not interested in attempting to place human reforms on something that is from Allah and is therefore perfect."

You slobbered a bib full with that one.

This is self-righteous arrogance taken to an extreme. It is religeous, political, and cultural chauvinism all rolled, into one simple comment, expressed with complete and utter unawareness.

Islam is not in the world alone; Islam is not the center of everything; Islam must find a way to accomodate to this fact.

Islam has an attitude, which needs adjusting: that is your Reformation.

I have a major problem with a non-Muslim attempting to tell me how Islam should be reformed. It would be just as offensive to you if I told you what I thought you should disregard about your faith. First of all I have enough sense to know that I have only a superficial understanding of what it is that you believe, so how could I opine about it and not sound worst than misinformed?
We as Muslims are not interested in attempting to place human reforms on something that is from Allah and is therefore perfect. It is Muslimin who are not. Islam is the standard that each of us strives to live up to and it is a fool's game to judge Islam by what imperfect human beings are doing on any given day. Because human knowledge is limited to what we can perceive with our five senses and what we have experienced this naturally limits us in some many ways that second guessing our Creator seems ridiculous in the extreme. It is the very acknowledgment of my limits that makes attempts to second guess or improve on what the Creator has given by way of guidance seem inappropriate and silly. Case in point, it was only recently that humans could prove to themselves how the human develops in his or her mother womb. We simply did not have the equipment to see into this tiny process so all we could do was guess; however, the Quran explained in exacting detail those stages fourteen hundred years ago. Instead of mankind having that moment where faith is rewarded with the proof human's crave we instead had a bunch of humans patting themselves on the back about what they had discovered. How sad.
Rabbi instead of being so rude as to invite you to reform of Judaism I invite you to a commentary on the Quran in whatever language you are comfortable with and try it on for size. If after this review it continues to be your opinion that Islam needs reform than reject it. After all, rejection is the only sensible thing that is to be done with something that is purportedly from Allah but needs "improvement". Enjoy!

A yes! Timothy McVeigh - the great-Satan and boogeyman representing ALL the evils of Christianity, conservative politics, gun ownership, talk-radio, processed food products and a hundred other causes that haven't been invented yet. Yes, let's trot him out once again for the children to gasp at in horror!

Let's talk about tolerance from the perspective of the non-believer for a change. Agnostics, Atheists, Secular Humanists, Absurdists, etc. are not the ones creating or promoting all this hate. There is no better example of tolerance than these groups as they watch the world go up in flames in the name of God or Allah or Jesus or Mohammad or (Insert your God here). So go ahead and quote the bible or the Koran. Then give us all a lesson in history. We are here and now and if the "Great Religions" of the world can't pull it together then how great are they?

This chain of comments demonstrates, yet again, that the choice to base one's behavior primarily on belief in a particular intellectual construct, theology or second hand information regarding a past historic event is at best a distraction and at worst a rationalization for evil. It distracts by the delusion that we know God's will or can define God. It rationalizes by emphasizing an idea ahead of compassion and loving kindness.

The founders of Judaism, Islam, Christianity, etc. taught that we are to practice compassion, love and kindness toward all, not tie ourselves in knots around a belief. We would all be better off to follow those teachings more and emotionally attach ourselves to beliefs less.

All religions are man-made and serve only to shackle the mind. We are, after all, only clever apes who have become too smart for our britches. Give it all away and concentrate instead on the beauty of the world we live in.

Counterww

You're a Huckabee. Therefore, it must be something good, right?

Colorado dog-

If Jesus came today, you would be one of the "Pharisees" that would want him dead. Although Jesus does show his love, he confronts your sin, and this is your real problem with Christianity.

I don't know what a Huckabee is , but you have Pharisee written all over you.

Posted by: Counterww | December 29, 2009 12:23 PM

------------------------------------------

Well said Counterww:

The Pharisee sect has a large and visible contingency invoking Jesus and Christianity while promoting infanticide and defending the "peaceful" religion of Islam

"great spirit" mohawk wolf clan brave warriors broken cooked humiliated crippled totured

zealous militiamen american frontieer scalp & adopt children delaware mingo shawnee seneca creek cherokee

religious tolerance is for losers. religious violence is for winners. secular good cop bad cop routine.

royal proclamation of 1763 - land grab & butchery & trade. new world order. first principle of society is mutual protection.

muslim extremists, moderate racists, and liberal intellectuals are like tattooed nicotene dependant mentally ill delusional child molesting paranoid pretty boys in uniform. some with lose and some will win.

welcome to the backwoods of america.

vive le terror et fear god and kill kripple kidnap allah akbar

how many souls will struggle against adversity?

"The dangers associated with finding personal or national identity in religious mythology.."
_____________

This writer is quick to find danger in orthodox, historical religion whom he/she tags as "mythology."

Funny, those who share this view, have no pause when promoting their own religious ideology of "globalism" or "liberalism" or "global warming" or "advocates for mother earth." I guess they think these pagan religions of worshipping "mother earth" are "new" and "enlightened" as opposed to "mythology" or "fantasy."

The dangers associated with finding personal or national identity in religious mythology, that is what Wolpe is pointing out, even with his own bias. It will be still a long time until enough people understand this to make a difference. The struggle continues.

Colorado dog-

If Jesus came today, you would be one of the "Pharisees" that would want him dead. Although Jesus does show his love, he confronts your sin, and this is your real problem with Christianity.

I don't know what a Huckabee is , but you have Pharisee written all over you.

"The struggle for the soul of Islam"
This title is misleading ,I assume on purpose or because of ignorance.The history shows that muslims were more tolerent than others.Two examples demonstrate that ,one in the middle ages and one recently:1- When the crusadors entered Jerusalem they killed all muslims and jews and when Saladin reentered the city he did not kill the Christians some of their descendents are still living there .
2- During the Bosnian war it was reported that between 850 and 900 churches and mosques were destroyed. The Orthodox Serbs destroyed all the catholic churches and mosques they could reach. The catholic croates destroyed all the orthodox churches and mosques they could reach. The muslims did not destroy churches except one monestry.

It is unfair to neglect the political reasons which lead some misguided muslim extremists to use terror and try instead to attack all muslims in their religion .
To take some backward muslim countries( whose rulers are supported by the west) as bad examples is mean

editor4tonio,

I have a problem with those who say they are Christian, and then go on to advocate on behalf of Muslims.

One, Catholics revere Mary, but Protestants believe Mary has no special place in the Christian religion, beyond that of the mother of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ. IOW, she was a sinner, just like we all are, and she is not to be worshipped. Christians reserve worship for Jesus, alone. He alone was without sin.

Now, if you are a Christian, you would believe that Jesus died on the cross for your sins and rose again on the third day. Muslims reject Jesus' death on the cross for sins. They also deny that He was God in the flesh. As a Christian, you would believe that Jesus is God in the flesh.

If you are a Christian, you would reject teachings by Mohammed as a false prophet.
You would reject the god of Islam, Allah. He is not the same God revealed to Moses, Abraham and the old testament prophets.

Given, that you said in your post that you were a Christian, may I ask? Do you accept that Jesus is God in the flesh? Do you accept his atoning work by his death on the cross for your sins? Do you believe that he rose from the grave and ascended into heaven? Do you worship Him, and Him alone - not Mary, not Allah? If you answered "yes" then, may I ask, "are you born again of the Spirit of God?" IOW, does the living God dwell in your heart by His Spirit? That is what a Christian is.

"2-However,the Quran orders Muslims to fight their enemies, especially those who attempt to take away from them their lands and wealth."

Well, excuse me for breathing. Who the heck determined what land and wealth exclusively belong to Islam forever? No other culture makes such a fatuous claim. History does not support such a claim, and anyone who does is feeding into Moslem intolerance of other cultures. Lands and wealth are lost and won throughout the flow of human history, and Islam is not immune to the flow of that history. They believe they are, but they are not. That is a mere rationalization for the violence perpetuated by subgroups within Islam, and for their ridiculous claims to land and power based on a fallacious claim of victimization. Time for someone to inisist these guys join the 21st century, and for others to stop enabling their sense of victimization. Remember guys God helps those who help themselves. He doesn't help those who explode themselves.

Thank you Yasser , god will bless you.

God will bless you Yasser,

As a Christian who read the Quran,Islam is the only religion in the world, other than Christianity, that revere Christ and Virgin Mary! The Quran is clear on Islam's relations with others : 1- Mulims must have peace with the rest of the world,and the Quran tells Muslims that priests and Christians are the most kind to Muslims.2-However,the Quran orders Muslims to fight their enemies, especially those who attempt to take away from them their lands and wealth. Now the question is: Why many Muslims turned against the West after WW1?
1-The Colonial occupation of much of the Muslim world.The British and the French divided much of the Muslim world into small and weak entities.
2-The exploitation,by the West, of Muslim wealth-OIL among others.
3-The creation of ISRAEL in their midst.The creation of Israel in PALESTINE at the expense of the indigenous people,the Palestinian people,is a huge factor in the anti-West feelings among Muslims.
4-The Western support for the Muslim oppressors and dictators,like Mubarak of Egypt and Abdullah of Saudi Arabia,is another factor.
And the list goes on.
Yes Muslims have a huge problem with the extremists amongst them.But,over the years,the West greatly helped in creating that problem.

A common characteristic of the followers of religions wrought by Abraham is their uncompromising refusal to accept any of the blame or that they may be part of the problem as well. Jesus was a bright light amidst these punitive, exclusionary theocracies but, alas, his name has been hijacked by the Huckabees.

The problem I have with this discussion is that there are not enough scholars of the Koran and Mohammad's life to clarify whether the actions of an individual or group of muslims are in accord with Mohammad's teachings.

On the Television Show 60 minutes - last Sunday an American baptist converted to Orthodoxy and now a Monk residing in Turkey - showed a hand written letter by the Prophet that showed clearly that the Turkish government was violating Mohammad's personal promise to the christian monasteries - where the Prophet guaranteed the christian monasteries freedom from oppression and interference - his own hand print was on the document.

The Turkish government is refusing to let new priests be educated in the Orthodox seminary. So clearly the Turkish government is violating, perhaps ignorantly, the principles of Islam which hold that the monasteries are not be tampered with - based on the Prophet's own written word.

Are terrorists in accord with Islamic principles? Is the Wabashi sect in accordance with Islamic principles? Are the actions by the Iranian government toward dissenters Islamic? Perhaps, perhaps not.

The Prophet said that Mary is the highest woman in heaven and in one of her many apparitions she stated,"Nations that allow freedom of religion will prosper, those that don't will falter". So if that message comes directly from heaven is anyone wise that ignores it?

If the prophet had confirmed that Mary is the highest woman in heaven and obviously tells the truth - are any of the current practices of Islam toward christians true interpretations or are they heretical? And if these actions are heretical who has the right to judge which actions are Islamic and which are heretical?

Whenever I read the typical reference to Timothy McVeigh and his Christian religion as a counterbalance to the Islamic terrorists attacks, I discount the writer's appeal to reason. Whereas, he wants to appear unbiased, he appears foolish.

One, Timothy McVeigh committed an act of terrorism against the Federal Government 14 years ago. He was not a part of religious group perpetrating violence in the name of that religion. He was a decorated Bronze Star Gulf War vet, honorably discharged. He became increasingly enraged with the unjust practices of the Federal government, especially the burning deaths of 76 people, including 20 children in the Waco, Texas 51 day siege of the Branch Davidian compound by the feds.

Timothy McVeigh was raised Catholic, later declared himself to be agnostic, and said that "science is my religion."

So, let's not compare Timothy McVeigh's religion or lack thereof, with his act of terrorism. It isn't a credible argument.

OTOH, Muslim terrorists are being trained in camps to commit acts of terrorism. It is in accordance with their religion and according to the dictates of the Qur`an.

How about a little truth in the equation, instead of political correctness.

It doesn't help anyone for the media to equate Timothy McVeigh with the hundreds being trained currently, and all the past acts of terrorisms perpetrated by Muslims since McVeigh's isolated act. There aren't McVeigh training camps continuing his cause. There are Islamic training camps continuing the cause. Deal with it!

Meanwhile, Yemen reports 300 more Muslim terrorists in training in today's news.

To be honest, I haven't heard of Jews spending millions to demonize Islam; maybe there are a few. (I no longer see the posted comment claiming that....)

But I have read extensively of the state-sponsored Arab media daily publishing libelous articles about Jews...and of state-sponsored Arab media producing televisions shows about Jews killing children for their body parts and drinking their blood.

I also know that Muslims have reprinted and distributed every piece of literature--no matter how false--turning Jews into demons who are planning to rule the world.

And I also remember how the Arabs claimed the Indonesian tsunami was caused by a Jewish death ray--and how the Mumbai massacres were done by "Hindu Zionists."

I agree with "shewholives": Muslims refuse to accept responsibility for their actions.

Soul of Islam?

They traded it for extreme violence and 72 pre-puberty virgins in heaven.

Islam is a special case. It binds women. When women have no choice, they bear more children. It prohibits lending at interest. Artificially shackling your economy in such a way assures low growth. High population growth and low economic growth produces many desperate people. Islam has a significant faction that takes desperate young men and turns them into bombs.

All the mollifying words that equate violence of other religious people ignores the large and special threat that Islam poses to the rest of us on this planet.

To be sure, the onus for reform lies with Muslims themselves but we will not be constrained by political correctness indefinitely if we sustain many casualties.

Luckily for us and them, the fundamental dysfunction that Islam represents extends to their murderous agents as well if Reid and Farouk are examples.

Dear David Wolpe and Carlin Romano,

Turkey(The Republic of Turkey) was founded in 1923.
So-called armenian tragedy occured in 1915,during First World War(both Ottomans and armenians suffered from Tragedy),how can Turkey apologize on Mutual Tragedy in 1915 ?

**seeds of religious tolerance and secularism(does islam know what Secularism is) in Europe(only Spain) were sown by muslims(omayyad invaders)in Spain** Myth,yes,completely Myth.
If they did in Spain,why couldnt they sow in their Land ? Omayyads were overthrown by muslim people because of unbearable oppression within 80-90 years.

Yes,there is no mosque in Vatican City(it's not a City,only Special District of Roma),but there are mosques in Roma and Italy.
Yes,Mecca and Medina may be sacred(first,Secred City is not islamic term,Everywhere is sacred),but,What about Jeddah,Riyadh,Damman ?
1.5 million Indians are working in Saudia,is there only one Indian Temple ?
100,000 Westerners,is there only one Church in Jeddah or Damman ?

Notindc1,
Does islam know what Tolerance is ?
Quran doesnt prohibit Suicide Bombing,vice versa,it encourages Suicide Bombing(49.15) in House of War/Infidel Lands.Dont mix,Suicide Bombing is not Individual Suicide.
**Secularists banned all forms of Islam in public** ?? What did they do ?
-Did they close mosques ?
-Did they ban Ramadan Fasting ?
-Did they prohibit the Feast of Beheading ?
King of Ottoman declared Jihad(Holy War and no other Theologic meaning) against Enemies in 1914.Some muslim posters say *there was no Jihad before 1980*

There had been Human-made Water canal in Egypt 5000 years B.P.
Did muslims built only one Water Canal ?
There were Babylon Flower Gardens,where are those Gardens now ? Which Enviroment ?

Thanks, Rabbi Wolpe, for calming down the hysteria. Islam has ALWAYS been tolerant --the Jews are, indeed, in the best position to know that, having suffered a long history of persecution in Europe, from Isabella of Spain to Hitler, while Muslim lands rightly welcomed them (Morocco vigorously rejected Petain's racial profiling order to have Moroccan Jews wear the yellow Star of David sign). You write about "The fanatic's finger on a nuclear button is catastrophe". Indeed! Israel has a nuclear arsenal, and its right-wing politicians are always threatening to strike Iran's nuclear research facility that, to this day, has not thrown up any evidence of nuclear weapons manufacturing. The US has actually used the nuclear weapon agaibst Japan, yet the latest news is that Hillary Clinton is trying to bully Japanese Premier Hotoyama over the latter's more assertive stance regarding the controversial American military base in Okinawa. We should not hesitate to denounce the real aggressors, the warmongers, the insane believers in 'superior races' and 'superior religions' or 'superior cultures'. The eminent scoetist Steven Pinker rightly points out that, compared to the historical record, violence is, in fact, on the decline rather than increasing. Even then, relative to what the human genius is capable of, there is far too much violence in the world. Jacob Bronowski, whose treatise "The Ascent of Man" sought to shine the light of hope on man's evolutionary adventure where Darwin's "The Descent of Man" had, because of unfortunate misreading that persists to this day, caused despair that Man's ancestry is the lowly ape, would wholeheartedly support my assertion that the world community (and a not insignificant proportion of today's disgruntled activists in the Muslim world) would have a lot to learn from Islam's long historical record of enlightened tolerance.

It is worth noting that most of the religions mentioned have their extremist faction, and all have a history of oppressing "non-believers" in one way or another. The idea that one has an inside track on the mind of God lends itself quite readily to this sort of behavior. The truth is that nobody can prove this intimate linkage and that it is extremely unlikely that any one of these religions has what it takes to convert the members of all others. Collectively, and democratically, we ought to assume responsibility for defining what is right rather than appealing to some authority who does not command universal allegiance.

As usual the Muslims posting comments refuse to take any responsibility. It's everyone else’s fault for perceiving Islam as being violent.

The seeds of religous tolerance and secularism in Europe were sown by the Muslims rulers of Al-Andalus. The 700 year muslim rule also kick started the Europen rennaissance. There are hundreds of churches throughout the muslim world. Christmas and New Year are celebrated as public holidays in most of Islamic world. Even Muslims dont even get a day off for their festive occaissions let alone talk of public holidays. Its stupid to link building of Minarets to building churches in Mecca and Medina. It only speaks of the deep seated hatred and racism of the commentator. How many mosques are there in Vatican City?

Rabbi Wolpe, Islam is by its nature, tolerant and inclusive of all acts that aren't destructive to human beings and their environment. The Koran prohibits suicide bombings and violence that is not necessary for self-defense.

The issues that you bring up are political, not religious, in nature. Saudi Arabia was formed by agents from the British empire (see lawrence of Arabia.) The Armenian genocide occured *not* at the height of the Islamic Ottoman Empire but at the rise of secularists who ended up banning all forms of Islam in public.

Actually, I'm wondering where the American Jewish community is considering exremists amongst them have contributed millions of dollars to campaigns demonizing Islam and Muslims. http://bit.ly/7iOAIS