It's DADT that's immoral - not homosexuality

ABU_IBRAHIM:
“O Glade runner, ¿do you want a man gazing lustfully on *your* son's private parts in the barracks shower room or in a head on board ship? Huh???”
Troll or not, I’ll answer if only for the edification of others.
What goes on in another person’s head is not in my control. So if a person, male or female ‘lusts’ after me, or my son, well, there’s not really much I can do about that. But since lust is actually only a thought in someone else’s head, it really has no power over me either.
What am I thinking right now? How does it affect you personally?
See what I mean?
My son is smart enough, mature enough to handle the situation, which may not be a situation at all. And by ‘handle’ I don’t mean conduct a public or private beating. I mean that my son, like myself, if found in an uncomfortable situation would simply ask the offender to stop. I’ve done this myself in the workplace when the behaviors of a few of my co-workers seemed to be crossing the line from simple, benign banter to something a little too familiar. In each case I needed to do nothing more than point out that this behavior was flattering but unwelcome, problem solved. Women have to put up with this sort of thing all the time; it’s not exactly rocket science or divine revelation.

“According to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, that is according to whom”
The Prophet did not show up for duty while I served. He was/is not in charge of the U.S. Military.

abu_ibrahim: LOL, way too obvious troll is way too obvious.

I was gonna address george, but it looks like gladerunner did it all for me :) On one note, george tries to compare sexual orientation with pedophilia, which screams of trolling. Being to obvious in your trolling makes your trolling fail miserably :D

thebump: But fact of the matter is, Jesus never condemned same-sex attraction, and nor does the Bible when you don't take it out of context :)

«blasmaic:
"It's against the law force a person at work to be naked in front of anyone who could become sexually or romantically attracted to him or her. "

Exactly which law is that?

"To fairly implement the repeal of DADT, the military will need to build private sleeping, bathing, and dressing areas for each new recruit and soldier."

According to whom?»
«Posted by: gladerunner | November 16, 2010 3:40 PM»

According to Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, that is according to whom!

Prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, said, «A man must not look at a man's private parts, nor a woman at a woman's; and a man must not come close to a man in one garment nor a woman to a woman in one garment.» (Quoted by Muslim Ibn Al-Hajjaj in Ṣaḥiḥ, 9 volumes, Cairo, 1349 A.H.)

O Glade runner, ¿do you want a man gazing lustfully on *your* son's private parts in the barracks shower room or in a head on board ship? Huh???

georgedixon1:
“Homosexuality was rightly classed as a mental illness until a 3 to 2 vote by the governing body of American psychiatry in the early 1970's at a convention where no papers on related topics were presented”
Where’s Paul Harvey when you really need him? There’s quite a bit more to that story than you present. This issue was debated officially and unofficially amongst the members for years, and in some cases decades. There were supporters and detractors, the supporters of this change were eventually able to convince a majority of the group of its opinion. That’s exactly how that system works. Since that time the classification has been debated and discussed, but all attempts to overturn it have come up very short since no reasonable case to do so has been made. You've got to love a democracy... You DO love democracy don't you George?

Georgedixon1:
“The left cares not at all about access to the military they publicly despise”
First off, I do publicly and passionately support the repeal of DADT. So I suppose that makes me a ‘liberal’ in your myopic, binary universe. You assume that because I, and others like me support this particular position that we also support gun bans, raising taxes, legalizing abortion, affirmative action, dismantling all the nukes, reducing the role of the military to highway litter pickup, freeing violent felons, and even perhaps instant citizenship/amnesty for all illegal aliens.
Sorry to disappoint you.
I served in the military, during war time, as a volunteer as did all my brothers and as did my son. I don’t think I need to offer any proof to you about my relationship with, or feelings for military service.
I served at a time when those discovered or claiming to be gay were discharged with MEDICAL discharges, those discharges were coded with the hardly indecipherable ‘HMSL’. I knew a few guys that got these. I also knew a few that evaded this fate. To a man they served admirably and respectfully. I was never once tickled, pinched, fondled or even propositioned by any of them.
I grew up in, well let’s just call it Mayberry to make it simple. The first HMSL’s I was aware of ever meeting were in the military. Admittedly I was at first repulsed. Shortly however, duties, responsibilities and life in general took up more and more of my time. When called to duty I served alongside sailors, soldiers, marines and airmen. I never recall getting around to asking them about their orientation. Other things just seemed a little more important.
I’ll have you know that now, all these years later, I’ve found it much more suitable to judge fitness for duty on things that just don’t have anything at all to do with what folks do in their spare time, in their own privacy. I no more wince at the notion of my platoon-mate bumping uglies with another dude than I do imagining my oily, warted, hairy platoon leader boofing his pale, obese wife, or even my own parents going at it. In other words, I just don’t give those notions much thought at all, they are simply not relevant to my personal/working relationship with them.
In the meantime, this ‘leftist’ is a gun-owning, capitalist, cut-government-spending, guard-the-boarders proud veteran that DOES have inside knowledge of and deep respect for the military.
“Homosexuality is as biologically normal as pedophilia or necrophilia:
Other things that are biologically ‘abnormal’:
Left handedness
Red Hair
IQ’s over 130
Color blindness
Lactose intolerance
Infertility
Twins

Biological ‘normalcy’ as you use the phrase, is based on nothing more than an indication of the level of distribution of a trait within a population.
Just because something is a minority trait is not a suitable or accurate indicator of it’s level of goodness or badness in an individual or a society.

In fact, Jesus healed a gay centurion.

Jesus healed adulterers, tax collectors and prostitutes. It was not an endorsement of their activities. He calls every one of us to repent (first) and (then) receive his healing. He does not thereby excuse our sinful natures.

Jesus will heal anyone who asks to be delivered of same-sex attraction.

1) The left cares not at all about access to the military they publicly despise

2) "Gays" in the military is to undercut the institution
...(just like Iraq was the wrong war and Afghanistan was the 'right' war to the left when Bush was in office, today Afghanistan is less loved by the left.....)

3) Homosexuality is as biologically normal as pedophilia or necrophilia.

4) Homosexuality was rightly classed as a mental illness until a 3 to 2 vote by the governing body of American psychiatry in the early 1970's at a convention where no papers on related topics were presented...a "global warming" bit of political science...

thebump: You are making an assumption. Fact of the matter is, homosexuality is never condemned in the Bible, not once. In fact, Jesus healed a gay centurion. There are also instances of gay couples in the Bible.

In fact, the Bible has gay couples in a positive light as noted in Ruth 1:16-17; Daniel 1:9; 1 Samuel 20: 41-42; and 2 Samuel 1:26. David and Jonathan's relationship parallels that of Gilgamesh and Enkidu, a gay couple in an ancient Sumerian epic. Their relationship fits the model of military lovers, common throughout the societies of the ancient Middle East. These male-male sexual relationships were taken for granted, and they would not have had to be explicitly referenced.

Jesus didn't say it and it's not in the ten commandments.

Actually, to the contrary, both the Ten Commandments and Jesus in the Gospels affirm that the union of male and female in holy matrimony is inseparable from God's plan for creation.

And surely, considering the many astounding sayings recorded in the Gospels, if Jesus had wished to correct His hearers' understanding of the meaning and purpose of human sexuality, He would have said so.

THANK YOU
reverend
for your JUST and ethical and sensible response.

pray to whatever Lord you believe in that we transcend the ignorance, bigotry, and intolerance/injustice of the
Dont Ask Don't tell policy.

Any one of us who has a brother/sister/father/daughter who is gay knows the ignorance and injustice of the DADT policy.

Yar2010

Jesus didn't say it and it's not in the ten commandments.

Thebump

"Homosexual conduct is immoral. The authoress is an ignoramus."

No it is not. You are a snob.

Blasmaic

You are assuming that gay people harrass, bully and beatup straight people. But it is actually the other way around.

You are really mixed up.

Even straight men in a shower are afraid to look at the naked bodies of their comrades for fear that they could get in troulbe for being gay. Think, then, how much more frightening it would be for someone who is REALLY gay.

That is, think of it if you have any imagination at all, which I assume you do not.

Yar: You need to learn how to troll bro, that's way too obvious :) But i love using trolls to spread information concerning homosexuality. It's a win/win situation for me ^_^

Let's examine Leviticus.

Leviticus is constantly taken out of context. These two lines do not condemn homosexuals when you examine Leviticus as a whole and relate the historical times.

Leviticus 18:22:
"You shall not lie with a male as those who lie with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13:
"If a man lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination and they shall surely be put to death."

Both of these verses refer to heterosexuals who participated in fertility rituals in order to guarantee good crops and healthy flocks, not homosexuals, there is absolutely no mention of sexual orientation or homosexuality. Also, the word abomination was used for anything that was considered to be religiously unclean or dealing with any type idol worship.

The Hebrew word "toevah" was used in Leviticus 18:22 and Leviticus 20:13. "Toevah" has been translated in our Bibles as "abomination" or "detestable". The "toevah" was used throughout the Old Testament for activity involving ethnic contamination and religious idolatry. "Toevah" refers to things that were ritually unclean - like eating pork.

It is significant that another Hebrew word, "zimah," also translated "abomination," which means intrinsic evil or evil by its very nature, was not used in Leviticus 18:22, or Leviticus 20:13.

It is also significant that female homosexual relationships are not mentioned in the old testament. That's because they aren't talking about sexual orientation, they are talking about idolatrous practices.

I really cannot see what all the fuss is about. In Britain the same, tired old arguments were presented as to the alleged dangers to morale, cohesion and sharing accomodation, all of which turned out to be spurious. In the British armed forces the real problems have been caused by integrating women.

Often insecure people manufacture problems that in reality have no substance. One of the best officers I served under was gay, we all knew it and it caused no problems. He was fully accepted.

the old testament also says that slavery is good.

not all the prohibitions of themselves were sins, nor sins under the new covenant.

scripture has never said that homosexuality of itself was a sin.

it is an interpretation that is not supported by the love of the 2nd commandment(love neighbor) that attempts to say it is a sin.

To those who deny that Scripture repudiates homosexual behavior I ask: What is it about thou shalt not lay with a man as with a woman don't they understand? It is attenuating beyond reason to judge Leviticus and Romans 1 to be referring to temple prostitution. It is a grasping at straws. Moreover, the constant pleas based on 'compassion' or 'charity' or 'rights' are ill-reasoned demands that what is destructive of the moral order be acquiesed in by society. There may not be a choice in having such perverse inclinations, but there is a choice, without a doubt, in acting out these behaviors. In many cases, the sin is mitigated by the compulsive nature of this disorder. Homosexual persons should be given respect as persons but their demands that their behaviors be accepted as just another variant of human living are bogus and ought to be resisted. Wake up America.

"I have gay friends who are serving in the military right now. The ones who have partners can't talk about them, can't have their photos with them when they are fighting in Iraq or Afghanistan, can't list their partners as "next of kin" if the worst happens, won't be able to provide for their partner's futures. The ones who are single live in fear that they might be found out and lose their rank or worse their livelihoods."
And the conclusion to this is that homosexuality should be legitimized and 'normalized' in our society. I don't see the logic. Homosexual behavior is by its very nature disordered and misdirected and immoral.

This was taken from another poster that shows why we need to legalize gay marriage. If you don't feel for this person after reading it, you simply aren't human.

"I am not sure what our President thinks of this dicission but coming from a poor family and knowing what discrimination is all about I would assume he would not care if "Gays" have equal rights. The whole reason why they are asking for rights to be considered married is from the same reason why I would be for it. My own life partner commited suicide in our home with a gun to his heart. After a 28 year union I was deprived to even go his funeral. We had two plots next to each other. But because we did not have a marriage cirtificate "(Legal Document)" of our union his mother had him cremated and his ashes taken back to Missouri where we came from. That is only one example how painful it is. His suicide tramatized me so much and her disregard for my feelings only added to my heartach. That happened on March 21 of 2007 and I still cannot type this without crying for the trauma I have to endure each day. Oh did I mention I am in an electric wheelchair for life? Yes I am and it is very diffacult to find another mate when you are 58 and in a wheelchair. "

The National Library of Medicine pubs confirm that sexual orientation is natural, biologically induced in the first trimester of pregnancy, morally neutral, immutable, neither contagious nor learned, bearing no relation to an individuals ability to form deep and lasting relationships, to parent children, to work or to contribute to society.

From the American Psychological Association: homosexuality is normal; homosexual relationships are normal.

The American Academy of Pediatrics, American Psychological Asociation and American Psychiatric Asociation have endorsed civil marriage for same-sex couples because marriage strengthens mental and physical health and longevity of couples, and provides greater legal and financial security for children, parents and seniors.

America's premier child/mental health associations endorse marriage equality.

Homosexuality is not a choice. Just like you don't choose the color of your skin, you cannot choose whom you are sexually attracted to. If you can, sorry, but you are not heterosexual, you are bi-sexual. Virtually all major psychological and medical experts agree that sexual orientation is NOT a choice. Most gay people will tell you its not a choice. Common sense will tell you its not a choice. While science is relatively new to studying homosexuality, studies tend to indicate that its biological.

(Change *** to www)
***-news.uchicago.edu/releases/03/differential-brain-activation.pdf
***.newscientist.com/channel/sex/dn14146-gay-brains-structured-like-those-of-the-opposite-sex.html
Gay, Straight Men's Brain Responses Differ
***.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,155990,00.html
***.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html
***.springerlink.com/content/w27453600k586276/

There is overwhelming scientific evidence that homosexuality is not a choice. Sexual orientation is generally a biological trait that is determined pre-natally, although there is no one certain thing that explains all of the cases. "Nurture" may have some effect, but for the most part it is biological.

And it should also be noted that:
"It is worth noting that many medical and scientific organizations do believe it is impossible to change a person's sexual orientation and this is displayed in a statement by American Academy of Pediatrics, American Counseling Association, American Association of School Administrators, American Federation of Teachers, American Psychiatric Association, American Psychological Association, American School Health Association, Interfaith Alliance Foundation, National Association of School Psychologists, National Association of Social Workers, and National Education Association."

Homosexuality is not a sin according to the Bible. Scholars who have studied the Bible in context of the times and in relation to other passages have shown those passages (Leviticus, Corinthians, Romans, etc) have nothing to do with homosexuality. These passages often cherry-picked while ignoring the rest of the Bible. The sins theses passages are referring to are idolatry, prostitution, and rape, not homosexuality.

(Change *** to www)
***.soulfoodministry.org/docs/English/NotASin.htm
***.jesus21.com/content/sex/bible_homosexuality_print.html
***.christchapel.com/reclaiming.html
***.stjohnsmcc.org/new/BibleAbuse/BiblicalReferences.php
***.gaychristian101.com/
***.mccchurch.org/AM/Template.cfm?Section=Resources&Template=/CM/HTMLDisplay.cfm&ContentID=2121
***.wouldjesusdiscriminate.org/biblical_evidence.html
***.soulforce.org/article/homosexuality-bible-gay-christian
***.goodhopemcc.org/spirituality/sexuality-and-bible/homosexuality-not-a-sin-not-a-sickness.html

You are aware that there is now and probably always have been gays in the military, right? Where's all the raping and wild, straight-to-gay, forced-conversion orgies?

Posted by: gladerunner

------------

Sure there have always been gays in the military, but to protect the privacy rights of heterosexuals, they have been there illegally or only while keeping their sexual orientation private.

That's what DADT is all about. The military can't protect the privacy rights of heterosexuals while permitting gays to serve openly because everyone shares the same sleeping, bathing, and dressing areas.

As for wild orgies, you'll have to ask someone else. Whatever your predilictions are is none of my business, but even gays who aren't promiscuous like you can violate other mens' privacy. It's embarassing to heterosexual men to have gay men fall in love with them while sharing the same private space.

Gays and lesbians will experience greater social acceptance when they begin respecting the privacy rights of heterosexuals.

Let live by the bible:
"For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him." (Leviticus 20:9)

"Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard." (Leviticus 19:27)

"...do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear material woven of two kinds of material." (Leviticus 19:19)

"But all in the seas or in the rivers that do not have fins and scales, all that move in the water or any living thing which is in the water, they are an abomination to you." (Leviticus 11:10)

"Your male and female slaves are to come from the nations around you; from them you may buy slaves. You may also buy some of the temporary residents living among you and members of their clans born in your country, and they will become your property." (Leviticus 25:44-45)

Morality changes with the times. If not, we'd be living in one restrictive world now.

I know her and she's brilliant.

Forgive me. I should have said her post is ignorant. Indeed it betrays an ignorance of the most rudimentary facts of life. Further, it blames God for humankind's sinful nature. That's nuts.

One of the dirty little secrets of this debate is about the status of the Chaplaincty Corps in the US Military. A few years ago I was talking with an active duty member of the U S Army who told me the Chaplaincy Corps is dominated by super fundatmentalists who are not even reflective of the majority of people of faith in this country.

This helps explain the dismissal a woman pastor from the Evangelical Lutheran Church in America who served the Air Force Academy several years ago. She refused to parrot the harsh judgmental positions she was told to teach at the Academy because they conflicted with her personal faith and the beliefs of her denomination. This resulted in her dismissal from that post. Getting rid of Dont Ask Dont Tell would be a most effective way of restoring the chaplaincy corps to be more reflective of mainline religious beliefs according to the active duty Army member I talked with. The dominance of extreme fundamentalists in the Chaplaincy Corps explains their opposition to repealing Dont Ask Dont Tell while not reflecting sound theology or biblical interpretation.

@TheBump, you're a neanderthal. I believe you have a very low IQ because us believe resorting to name-calling, which you believe makes the words magically become the truth, is the way you have a discussion. (Sound of Buzzer) Wrong answer. You do not know Rev. Haffner and she is no ignoramus. I know her and she's brilliant. Stick to your own sandbox and stay out of adult conversations where intellectual discussions of importance are being held.
@Blasmaic, you have a false belief that gays are after you, thus the need for privacy rights. Unless every man desires sex with every women on earth, then you cannot project on gays--in particular gay men--they are after every male in the world. These are made-up lies that make you and those who think like you believe you're/they're more interesting sexually than what motivates the world of people living their lives on their own standards. For myself, most men are not a point of interest...and those who are, I speak to them directly. The answer to your concerns is just like women must often tell you, "No thank you." Most people understand what "No" means. An ugly soul is far worse than an ugly face. Get a life, dude.

Thank you for your thoughtful and humane posting. As you point out, gay and lesbian soldiers serve with honor. People with same sex attractions have always been part of the armed services around the world. Pretending they aren't there only serves to diminish their contribution to the services and their patriotism.

blasmaic:
"It's against the law force a person at work to be naked in front of anyone who could become sexually or romantically attracted to him or her. "

Exactly which law is that?

"To fairly implement the repeal of DADT, the military will need to build private sleeping, bathing, and dressing areas for each new recruit and soldier."

According to whom?

You are aware that there is now and probably always have been gays in the military, right? Where's all the raping and wild, straight-to-gay, forced-conversion orgies?

Homosexual conduct is immoral. The authoress is an ignoramus.

"I say the sin is not homosexuality but homophobia, the denigration of our neighbors because they are physically and emotionally attracted to people of the same sex. The sin is heterosexism, the presumption that heterosexuality is normative for all people and morally superior."

It's a perfect example of the bullying that merely human heterosexuals receive at the hands of the morally righteous.

Blacks are integrated into the military. They sleep, bathe, and dress in the same areas as whites. Women are not fully integrated. They do not sleep, bathe, and dress in the same areas as men.

It's against the law force a person at work to be naked in front of anyone who could become sexually or romantically attracted to him or her. To fairly implement the repeal of DADT, the military will need to build private sleeping, bathing, and dressing areas for each new recruit and soldier.

Gays and lesbians will experience greater social acceptance when they begin respecting the privacy rights of heterosexuals.