Rituals and Membership Cards

Reincarnation and Karma are two seperate things (to me).
I am Wiccan, to me reincarnation is a learning experience, no way a punishment. Many of us believe you have to know what it is like to be that other person...to learn compassion and wisdom through living many lives.

I might have been a poor black woman, a cripple, a gay man, a child born to die of starvation...a priest, a teacher, a criminal...or I will be. In this belief I can not be as bigoted or arrogant... for there could I be.

I do not believe you face karma in a new life, but in this one.Karma is very much like the Wiccan Law of Return...what you put into the universe returns to you. Do harm and harm will be done to you... do what is kind and good, and that also will return. It's not a punishment, its a law of the universe.

Wiccans also believe that we are humans and will come back as humans, animals have their own spirits, we do not believe that any animal is lower then us, that we must start in a lower form.

So Wiccans have a different understanding of Reincarnation and Karma.

terra

Shyamala Hari writes, "I call that ingratitude."

Exactly. Whenever he talks about his childhood in India, the only thing he mentions is his attending a catholic school (I have seen this in several of his writings and interviews). No mention of how he derived his wisdom and what influenced him...no mention of Vedas, Upanishads or Gita. He does not understand the philosophy well. I have heard him give an evasive answer on a radio program to a caller's question of why the concept of karma makes one leave the sufferer not to be helped. He has fallen hook, line and sinker (or it might be an act) of the misssionaries mischaracterization of idol worship (It is not idol worship, but iconic worship with the prana prathishtapana and all). I am convinced that he just plays for the people who buy his books and pays for his talks. All show of spirtuality for fame.

On the one hand, Deepak often makes use of what he learnt from ancient Hindu Philosophy (which he probably does not understand well), and on the other hand, he wants to separate himself from Hinduism by looking down upon Hindus. I would call that ingratitude
I disagree with Deepak on the "exclusion" remark about Hinduism. Hinduism does not have a conversion process NOT BECAUSE it is exclusive but because it is ALL-INCLUSIVE. In Gita, the Lord says "I will manifest myself to you no matter whatever way you try to approach me, by whatever name you address me, in whatever form you worship me or meditate upon me as formless". When it comes to spiritual growth, different individuals are usually at different levels. So, an approach to realize God which is suitable to one may not be suitable to another. Hinduism understands that one size does not fit all. So, for Hindus, every religion is in a way, a part of hinduism itsef. Hindu rituals mostly involve worship of idols, trees, animals (for Hindus, everything is a manifestation of just one and the same God; so they worship everything) and are intended for those who cannot think of a formless God. A Hindu who understands Hinduism DOES NOT think that God is only in the idol and nowhere else, eventhough he/she often participates in rituals. It is true that people of other religions might have been excluded from attending Hindu rituals in Deepak's childhood days and probably in some places even now in India. The attitude has changed a lot over the years. Nowadays, for example, all Hindu organizations in the US and Europe, regularly perform rituals which are attended by many who are not Hindus by birth; so also in India.
There were reasons for excluding non-Hindus from Hindu rituals in earlier times. I realized that from some of my experiences in the US. When my sons were 8 and 9 years old, one day, they were playing at my home with a Jewish friend of their age. Since I had planned to go to the temple (hindu) and since his parents went out, I took the Jewish boy along with my children to the temple. As we were doing our worship, the Jewish boy walked right upto the idol and spit on it. I do not think his parents taught him hatred toward other religions. It is just that he must have heard in his family's cynagogue or place of Jewish worship, that idol worship is bad and he was too young to restrain himself from expressing disrespect. Another time, I attended a church with my Christian friend because I admire Jesus Christ and I admired her fath in Him. The pastor there, during the course of his speech, talked for a while on how ridiculous it is to believe in reincarnation. Well, being a grown-up and being in the minority, I kept quiet. So, inviting people with different belief systems to a religious ritual may cause problems.

ChuckB

(Aside: I'm a woman. John is my father's first name and Thaikattil is my family name. It is simply a tradition in my community. One takes on the father's first name and the family name indicates one's ancestry.)

The law of Karma and Reincarnation belong together. I can't see any justification for reincarnation if the law of Karma didn't exist. When a Hindu has attained God-realization through purity, he is not reborn. The chain of death and rebirth is broken. For me as a Christian, it is Jesus Christ who helps me attain salvation and freedom from reincarnation.

One doesn't have to believe in God (i.e., a personal god or Supreme Being) to believe in or accept there is a Truth and truths. Also believing in Truth doesn't mean one has to use the terms right and wrong with the implication there is a moral code and a conscious judger of actions, i.e., the existence of a moral code does not follow. Instead, one could surmise that there is that what is and that what isn't or that which is efficacious and that which is non-efficacious, which entails either frustration or failure for pursuing what doesn't exist or trying to do what can't be done, not judgment and punishment. In short, belief in gods and God is not sufficient to prove there is a creator or a creation; what is has always been and always will be, i.e., not Alpah to Omega and no beginning to end. One doesn't have to believe in God (i.e., a personal god or Supreme Being) to believe in or accept there is a Truth and truths. Also believing in Truth doesn't mean one has to use the terms right and wrong with the implication there is a moral code and a conscious judger of actions, i.e., the existence of a moral code does not follow. Instead, one could surmise that there is that what is and that what isn't or that which is efficacious and that which is non-efficacious, which entails either frustration or failure for pursuing what doesn't exist or trying to do what can't be done, not judgment and punishment. In short, belief in gods and God is not sufficient to prove there is a creator or a creation; what is has always been and always will be. Separateness is an illusion.

One problem with that: if you believe that there is a God, then you must also believe in the existence of Truth. From that premise, it must be surmised that there is a right and a wrong, including a right and a wrong way to worship.

Put simply you cannot believe in a god and not ascribe to a manner in which to worship that god, that manner being religion.

Mr. Thaikattil, Karma, being reborn to a state determined by one's actions in a previous life, is not a punishment. Punishment is a conscious action taken by one against another, i.e., God punishing someone for their transgressions. Christinas and others believing in a persona god that is a higher being have this notion of eternal punishment or damnation. Pantheistic religions, such as Hinduism, in their purist forms do not recognize personal gods as being the end of the story with the pweor to consign otehr beings to eternal hell. Instead, Karma is seen as casual relationship, i.e., cause and effect. Bad actions eventually entail bad consequences. While most Hindus believe in some personal god or avatar, e.g., Krishna, in the end, these deities, while very powerful relative to humans, are only beings themselves. Belief in them is one of the paths to reaching the ultimate, uniting with the Godhead. These higher beings may punish, but that is not what determines one's condition when reborn.

Rituals are nonsense. Agreed!

Whatever else Mr. Chopra said, I leave to others to debate.

Here goes Chopra yet another time, pandering to the Jesus and Mary crowd, and filling his coffers.

Hinduism is a non-founded religion. The word Hindu does not exist in Hindu scriptures. Even Hindus born into Hindu families do not undergo a ceremony similar to the baptismal. I grew up in Hindu household with rarely the word Hindu being mentioned.

You are Hindu if you declare yourself a Hindu. A ceremony is not needed. There is no exclusion in Hinduism as Chopra wrongly claims.

Dear Dr Chopra

You are right in quoting Kabir (whose 'dohays' I had to learn in school and loved them) as the viewpoint of a mystic.

Rituals is not the goal of religion, but it definitely is an important means for expressing worship to God as a community, and to the building of faith based communities among ordinary people. Hinduism provides communities based only on caste because the conversion concept doesn't exist.

Real mystics who do not need any guidance and community support along their spiritual journey are rare. Religion based communities/societies are always built to cater even to the weakest.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Mohamed MALLECK,Swift Current, Canada wrote:

To come back to your argument, the worst fromulation that I heard was from an especially pernicious former colleague of mine of Hindu faith who argued that: " If there WAS a conversion process in Hinduism, it would require a convert to be lower than an untouchable -- maybe a dog -- to start with, and then work his way up through reincarnations to a half-respectable caste about three or four rungs lower than a Brahmin!"

Even then, I do not have an aversion to Hinduism, quite the contrary. But, certain interpretations of the religion's teachings make me very angry.

July 9, 2008 9:40 PM

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Mr Malleck, if you were to read the history of Christianity in Kerala you would realize that even some of the staunchest Nambudiri Brahmins converted to Christianity based on the case made by Apostle Thomas in 52 AD. I have every reason to believe that my ancestors were among them (I belong to a very caste conscious Syro-Malabar Church, which luckily happens to have come under the communion of Roman Catholic Church about 400 years ago without losing its autonomy, so I happily belong to both worlds).

The caste system in Hinduism is an evil as you know Mahatma Gandhi tried to tackle as best as he could. But as you rightly point out the belief in reincarnation will stand in the way of real liberation from caste if suffering and caste status in this life is interpreted as punishment for sins in the past life.

DivineKnights.org is the way to go, the only thing standing between being member is your own mind.

Fascinating history of the Knights Templar there.

It seems that since we're apparently in this listless post-structural era, everyone is desperately trying to rationalize spirituality which, of course, leads us to conclude that God is somehow a byproduct of ourselves. This conclusion would make sense because there is no tangible evidence that there is a God though our inner desire for there to be one comes from within our quite tangible selves. However, this kind of rationale will never catch on with the masses because the sense of relief one feels in defaulting to a higher power comes naturally paired with the desire within ourselves to submit to a specific being or creed. Basically, you're either an atheist or an orthodox believer or a liar. That is unless you're able to tread the fine that Graham Greene and others did when they considered themselves Catholic Atheists. This whole universal human spirit/ design you're own self serving spirituality/everyone's religion is equally right nonsense is crap. Either take a leap of faith if a religion makes sense to you or have to guts to be a real atheist. Advocating that relativism is the only absolute when it comes to religion is both unwarranted and unnecessary.

Interesting essay. Dr. Chopra is well aware that the mind at the human level is deeply conditioned and simply recreates from a storebox of impressions what it knows (which of course is what it believes is true).

Part of what it "knows" is the belief that physical rituals and ceremonies invariably activate or possess intrinsic powers whose effects are in themselves sacred. The sacraments (baptism, eucharist, etc) of Christianity for example.

Certain sages of each age however have counseled that virtually all ceremonials are to be understood more deeply as purely symbolic of mystical processes potentially taking place on some level within man himself. Whether such is the case, and if so whether most men or women are consciously aware of these processes is another matter.

The practice of rituals then has its place, primarily as reminders of our spiritual potential. It is the unfoldment and cultivation of these inner mysteries of spirit through disciplines of realization that is the more significant invitation.

This is not to say that various words of power intoned properly can't be used to invoke invisible forces and gain the favor or good will of nature. But most of us are not educated in the details so as to be competent and certain of effects.

As Deepak says, personal growth and unfoldment of consciousness through self-effort (or an effortless effort) is the key to activating inwardly the cleansing, purifying, sanctifying and unifying powers symbolized by the various rituals. The sacred power is not in the ceremony, it is (at least potentially) in you.

Mr. Chopra, this is the first intelligent piece I've seen from you, ever. Not that I've read all of your stuff, so there may be other nuggets.

However, I'm also sure that you've said the opposite at other times because I think of you as the consummate BS artist. That's a compliment.

I'm not a believer in God.

As for Mohamed Malleck, boy, do I feel sorry for him and the bags that he carries. What a sad person he must be.

Chopra declares: Rituals may light a lamp at the door..

Wrong! Rituals symbolize the state of being dominated by structure. They are a form of unconscious abandonment of self and free choice by many.

You write, Mr Chopra, that: " ... some faiths, such as Hinduism, lack even a conversion process -- unless you are born with a membership card, you are ipso facto excluded."

Apparently, that statement is disputable. I would like to think so, because when I read what, for example, Sir Radhakrishnan has to say about Hinduism, I don't get the impression that he would agree with your interpretation of the religion in which you, he himself, and probably my great grand-father were born in. My ancestors -- further back than my great-grand father --- were most likely Hindus who converted to Islam because the intellectual as well as mercahnt traditions that run in the family made the caste system abhorrent to them.

To come back to your argument, the worst fromulation that I heard was from an especially pernicious former colleague of mine of Hindu faith who argued that: " If there WAS a conversion process in Hinduism, it would require a convert to be lower than an untouchable -- maybe a dog -- to start with, and then work his way up through reincarnations to a half-respectable caste about three or four rungs lower than a Brahmin!"

Even then, I do not have an aversion to Hinduism, quite the contrary. But, certain interpretations of the religion's teachings make me very angry.

To everyone we all have different paths that we must chose to follow. In all faiths no matter what faith you practice there is ann awareness that one must attain. My belief is in a duality of both a Goddess and a God. One must have both sides in order to be complete. In the old relgion it was the female and in the new religion it is male. My question is when will we embrace a duality of the creation? There is a balancing act throughout nature, predator/prey relationships. Good and bad balance each other. In order to have good you must have bad and vice versa. For those who bash one another you have missed the boat and will wallow in your mireness of dispair until you must repeat your life, again.

You are Elmer Gantry come back to us from the Other Side. Hail, King of the Scammers.

Seriously,you scare the Hell out of me.

Rick, so what?

So!

“To me, God is a state of universal awareness that can be united with human awareness through personal evolution and growth.”

As usual Dr. Chopra has stated the essence of spirituality and the necessary elements for humans to evolve our consciousnesses in order to create a better world for all sentient beings. Following the paths of the consciousness teachings, we can realise the god consciousness within each of us. Unfortunately, most ritualized religions forego the personal peace, joy and happiness of experiencing reality in “suchness” for a “spirituality lite” which leaves the adherent with a hollow, empty experience.

Peace in every moment.

Mr. Chopra, I really don't know what you believe but when you make the statements you've made in your post, I ask you to think back to your appearance at the Larry King show along with John MacArthur...I think you know what I mean...I for one would never tell anyone what they should or should not do. However, I do believe when we come into God's presence, we should examine ourself and come in truth not in outward appearance. In closing: We don't serve a tribal chief or judge nor do we have anything to do with the way to salvation: we only follow the what the Messiah's word says...