Islam Not the Enemy; God Not the Issue

Astoria
Ukba

THE NEO-ATHEISTS and their “innocent” quest for religious knowledge

The neo-atheist which is a new “religion” is a form of “militant atheism” which is against all the religions. There questions to you on this forum are not as innocent and they seem to be. They come here with a mission to create doubts about all religions may it be Islam, Christianity or Judaism.

Before you answer their questions about your religion is it not befitting to have the introduction of the person i.e. what he himself believes in. Internet do not mean you hide a dagger to attack other religions while you hide yourself.

Atheism is a rejection of all religion, or at least of all theistic religion, and since Islam is usually considered a theistic religion, atheism is in principle opposed to it. However, as a phenomenon with its roots in Europe, atheism has concentrated its opposition to religion on Christianity. The new atheism, by contrast, emphasizes Islam as a particularly virulent form of religion that must be opposed. Often, the new atheists claim that because of the events of 9/11, they feel compelled to take a strong stand against religion in general and Islam in particular. Because of this, atheists who focus primarily on Islam, such as Ayaan Hirsi Ali, may also be considered to be a part of, or at least allied with, the neo-atheists.

Atheists do not have anything new to offer. The neo atheists tend to show no interest in professional philosophy, religion, or theology and target the mass market. The arguments against the existence of God are generally versions of scientism, the view that all of life's problems may be solved by appeal to the natural sciences, and the moral argument against religion, that religion brings out the worst in people. They hide under humanism and pretend to be kinder species. There aim is just to confuse your about what you believe.

Peace and regards.

Why has the world rejected that GOD IS LOVE, not some character unseen to the edges of the universe by the Hubble and other telescopes?

The power of THE SPIRIT OF LOVE SURPASSES AND TRUNCATES HATE.

God as a character in human physical likeness doesn't exhist.

LOVE, AND THE SPIRIT OF LOVE IS!!!

Sorry for the duplicate

Thomasbaum

YOU: "I did not make this up, it is written in the bible"

Same thing as making it up.
The book is true because the book says so is not an argument.

YOU:
"I have experience both hell and spiritual death and I do not believe that I have went thru worse than Jesus"

No evidence, not credible, useless in any debate.

YOU:
"You have read and studied the bible, I have met God. See you in the Kingdom"

Se you in the looney bin.

Thomas,

"actually, I did not make this up, it is written in the bible"

same thing.

YOU:
"Because I have experience both hell and spiritual death and I do not believe that I have went thru worse than Jesus"

No evidence, not credible, not believable, useless in any debate.

YOU:
"You have read and studied the bible, I have met God. See you in the Kingdom"

See you in the looney bin.

TIMMY2

I wrote, ""I have also written that true religion is "taking care of widows and orphans".

You replied, "You can't just make up definitions Thomas. We have definitions for these words, you can not make up your own.", actually, I did not make this up, it is written in the bible.

I wrote, ""Jesus, Himself, went to hell since He as True Man and True God took all of the sins, wrongdoings or whatever anyone wishes to call it upon Himself"".

You replied, "How do you know that. Did God tell you? Or did you read it in the Bible you haven't read completely?"

Because I have experience both hell and spiritual death and I do not believe that I have went thru worse than Jesus.

You have read and studied the bible, I have met God. See you in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas

YOU:
"Jesus, Himself, went to hell since He as True Man and True God took all of the sins, wrongdoings or whatever anyone wishes to call it upon Himself"

How do you know that. Did God tell you? Or did you read it in the Bible you haven't read completely?

YOU:
"Hell is not the monolithic place that so many people seem to think that it is but is custom built by the occupant"

How do you know that. Did God tell you? Or did you read it in the Bible you haven't read completely?

YOU
"God knew that some would never take responsibility for what they do that is why He came up with a Plan that is for everyone to be in His Kingdom which is the new heavens and the new earth on the seventh day"

How do you know that. Did God tell you? Or did you read it in the Bible you haven't read completely?

YOU:
"We will all go thru judgement but God's Divine Justice and Divine Mercy go hand in hand"

How do you know that. Did God tell you? Or did you read it in the Bible you haven't read completely?

YOU
"some people twist that verse into"

Like this verse

Lev 20:13
13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.

People twist that to distort it's true meaning.
So tell me Thomas. Clear it up. Put it into context. Tell us it's true meaning. What did God mean by this????

Thomas baum

YOU: "I've never read the bible cover to cover"

This speaks volumes. That sentence appears to have only have 8 words but in fact it speaks a thousand.

YOU:
"My comment was, " you sure do seem to believe what some of the people that know God's Name say about God", and what I have written many times before concerning that comment is that if God was even remotely like what some of the people who know His Name than there is no way I could see anyone wanting to have anything to do with Him"

Does your God not judge us for our sins?

"maybe in purely human logic He Is"

That is the only logic we know. We have no reason to even imagine that another kind of logic exists.

YOU:
"I have written many times, God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, very simple statement"

How do you know that. Did God tell you, or did you read it in the Bible that you haven't completely read?

YOU
"I have also written that true religion is "taking care of widows and orphans" which basically means taking care of those that are worse off than us and everyone of us is worse off than everyone else in one way or another"

You can't just make up definitions Thomas. We have definitions for these words, you can not make up your own. You just gave the definition for charity, not religion. Charity is a completely secular philosophy. Religion has another definition altogether. Look it up. No definition of religion says anything even remote to what you just said.

In the previous post I wrote, "Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father except thru Me", He did not say that they could not be a myriad of ways to Him."

It should have said, "Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father except thru Me", He did not say that there could not be a myriad of ways to Him."

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TIMMY2

You wrote, "Except of course for the one's who are going to hell, because they have not accepted that their only path to salvation from eternal damnation is through Christ."

Jesus, Himself, went to hell since He as True Man and True God took all of the sins, wrongdoings or whatever anyone wishes to call it upon Himself.

Hell is not the monolithic place that so many people seem to think that it is but is custom built by the occupant.

We have free will, we are not puppets on a string or robots or mindless machines, and we are responsible for what we do. God knew that some would never take responsibility for what they do that is why He came up with a Plan that is for everyone to be in His Kingdom which is the new heavens and the new earth on the seventh day.

We will all go thru judgement but God's Divine Justice and Divine Mercy go hand in hand.

There are some who call themselves, Christians, of all or no denomination that seem to get quite upset about this.

It seems that for some people the "good enough news" which is what I call the news that as long as they get to the "good" place is all some seem to care about.

The "good enough news" is actually horrible news if the "GOOD NEWS" is not for ALL OF HUMANITY then it is not good at all.

Jesus said, "I Am the Way, the Truth and the Life no one comes to the Father except thru Me", He did not say that they could not be a myriad of ways to Him.

And He also said to the Father, He did not say to God which some people twist that verse into.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

TIMMY2

You wrote, "What a ridiculous comment. I grew up a Christian. I have read the Bible cover to cover three times, and many sections of it many more times than that."

I've never read the bible cover to cover.

Then, "I went to church for years. I have studied religion and world history, and debated this subject on blogs for years."

I went to church until my late teens and then for about 30 years I virtually never went to church.

Then, "I know everything one can know about what people who believe in God believe."

We are all individual people who have had life experiences, there is no way I could make a statement like that.

Then, "And instead of making a sarcastic comment like that, you could have pointed out how I was wrong in this case, or rather you could not, because I wasn't."

My comment was, " you sure do seem to believe what some of the people that know God's Name say about God", and what I have written many times before concerning that comment is that if God was even remotely like what some of the people who know His Name than there is no way I could see anyone wanting to have anything to do with Him.

Then, "I know exactly what you believe Catholic.", and how would you know?

Then, "And I am right that your God is a logical fallacy.", maybe in purely human logic He Is. Even the bible says so when God says, "My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts."

Then, "You have no rebuttal so you make a ridiculous claim that one need believe in God to know anything about what people who do believe in God believe.".

I don't quite know what you mean by this sentence, but as far as what people believe that do believe in God, the list is almost endless.

I have written many times, God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, very simple statement.

I have also written that true religion is "taking care of widows and orphans" which basically means taking care of those that are worse off than us and everyone of us is worse off than everyone else in one way or another.

Also about "true religion", that one can have true religion without even believing in God.

Also that knowing God's Name is not some kind of magic as some seem to think because God is not the egomaniac that some seem to think that He Is but that it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

I may get to more of your letter but sometimes when this gets too long they reject them.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
LIVING FOR TODAY...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do (for some of us anyway)
Nothing to kill or die for
AND NO RELIGION TOO
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Thomas

Part two

YOU: "Is your motto: my way or the highway?

No. I am just raising awareness. I am not imposing anything on anybody. I am just singing John Lennon's "Imagine" in a slightly harsher tone. Same message, exactly. I'm just a little more kurt.

YOU:
"As soon as you stop trying to be god, it might become a little easier for you to see the rest of us mere mortals as fellow human beings?"

Classic straw-man baseless accusation pathetic debating, no real rebuttal, divert attention away from having no argument BS.

YOU:
"I was taught in second grade that we are all equal in God's Eyes and you know what we are"

We are all equal period. God actually disagrees with me here.
If you read the Bible, God clearly considers women to be second class.

I repeat. No one has been more adamant on this thread that all humans are equal. I know, you believe that too right? Except of course for the one's who are going to hell, because they have not accepted that their only path to salvation from eternal damnation is through Christ. Yes religion teaches that we are all equal, so long as we all pray to the same God. If not, some of us are going to burn in hell.

Peace.

Be ready... for that thing that is never going to happen because it's a myth.
You have been duped.

Thomas Baum

YOU:
"For someone who says they do not believe in God, you sure do seem to believe what some of the people that know God's Name say about God"

What a ridiculous comment. I grew up a Christian. I have read the Bible cover to cover three times, and many sections of it many more times than that. I went to church for years. I have studied religion and world history, and debated this subject on blogs for years. I know everything one can know about what people who believe in God believe. And instead of making a sarcastic comment like that, you could have pointed out how I was wrong in this case, or rather you could not, because I wasn't. I know exactly what you believe Catholic. And I am right that your God is a logical fallacy. You have no rebuttal so you make a ridiculous claim that one need believe in God to know anything about what people who do believe in God believe.

YOU:
"Even if you do not believe that other human beings are human beings maybe you should give it a try"

Absolute rubbish, baseless pathetic accusation.
No one on this thread has been more adamant that all humans are equal. I'm with Lennon, remember? Your posts are full of these baseless accusations in place of real debate.

YOU:
"It must be tough being perfect, I do not have that problem"

Classic example.

YOU
"I know that you are not perfect and I am far from being perfect and for that matter what is "perfection" in your opinion?"

I don't know. No one does. Except the people who pretend to like you. That's your department. Pretending to know things that no one really knows. You tell me what is perfect?

YOU:
"you just may see that you are just as "fundamentalist's" in your way as some of them are in their way"

I am fundamentalist about one thing. I believe that beliefs should be formed with evidence, and or reason, and logic. Beliefs formed without these things are irrational beliefs by definition. I have mountains of evidence for irrational beliefs causing the most unspeakable human horrors. And all over beliefs with no evidence or reason.

You on the other hand can not back up your belief with CREDIBLE evidence or reason and logic.

I am a fundie with rational reasoned beliefs.
You are a fundie with irrational beliefs.

Correction to my post of December 9, 2008 8:08 PM:

Instead of "And to make things worth later..." I should have typed "And to make things *worse* later..."

Well, what can I say, I'am trully imperfect.

Best wishes again,

JAC

Nevermore53,

You wrote to Thomas Paul Moses: “I know that you mean well”

It is not difficult to agree with you on this. Arminius, who many in this blog have in good regard, said something similar. But meaning well is not the main point in a debate, rational arguments are.

Even over spiritual or philosophical matters you need to make some sense. If you talk to God and God talks you back, better have some heavy support to prove that this was true.

When somebody you are debating with -Timmy in this case- tells you "I blame God for punishing those he made imperfect for being imperfect” you respond with arguments, not with loose expressions like “It must be tough being perfect, I do not have that problem”. And to make things worth later asks: “Is your motto: my way or the highway?”

Today is not a good day for Thomas, even if he means well…

Best wishes to all

JAC

TIMMY2

You wrote, "I blame God for punishing those he made imperfect for being imperfect."

For someone who says they do not believe in God, you sure do seem to believe what some of the people that know God's Name say about God.

Even if you do not believe that other human beings are human beings maybe you should give it a try.

It must be tough being perfect, I do not have that problem.

I know that you are not perfect and I am far from being perfect and for that matter what is "perfection" in your opinion?

You may or may not care for what some of the "fundamentalist's", as some are referred to, of whatever persuasion have to say but if you would just take a minute or so to think, you just may see that you are just as "fundamentalist's" in your way as some of them are in their way.

Is your motto: my way or the highway?

As soon as you stop trying to be god, it might become a little easier for you to see the rest of us mere mortals as fellow human beings?

I was taught in second grade that we are all equal in God's Eyes and you know what we are, God loves each and every one of us, we are not the same but in God's Eyes we are equal, something to think about.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

NEVERMORE53

Hi, I'm doing alright, hope you're doing fine.

Sometimes I find it rather sad that some of the people that do not believe in God have pretty close to the same ideas of God as some of those that know His Name.

If God was even remmotely like what some that know His Name think that God Is, I wouldn't want to have anything to do with God.

God is not the egomaniac that so many, believers and non-believers alike, think that He Is.

Hang in there, as I have said, God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. Sometimes the simplicity of some things seem to overwhelm some, such as the difference between child-like and childish.

I am not a know-it-all and I have neither the desire or need to be a know-it-all.

Thanks for the post, it is much appreciated.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas

You said:
"if you have ever made a bad decision then you can blame it on God for not making you perfect that is your decision"

I don't blame God for not making me perfect, I blame God for punishing those he made imperfect for being imperfect. That is not loving to make someone imperfect and then punish them for the flaws that you gave them. is it?

You sadi:
"some people blame other people, some blame satan, some blame God and others take responsiblity for the decisions that they make"

I take responsibility for the decisions that I make. Don't forget, I don't believe in God, so of course I take responsibility for my actions. There is no God to blame in my worldview. But I am pointing out a logical fallacy in your world view.

If you make a bad decision (sin) you must have had some decision making tools that are faulty. Ad your god punishes you for having flaws that he gave you. That is according to your wacko theory. In my world view, people are responsible for their own actions. Don't confuse our world views, they are not the same.

You said: "Spock had feelings, do you?"

Yes. Just like Spock I have feelings and rationality and reason and logic.
Why do you think that rationality and logic get in the way of feelings or somehow subvert feelings? Why is rationality cold to you? I have feelings and love and warmth and compassion and I find all of those things to be completely rational and logical. Can you explain why feelings and emotions need to be irrational and not logical?

Jamil

You made a statement (that I did not make) and then commented on that statement that it was "hypocracy!"

Since it was your statement, not mine, I can only assume that you are calling yourself a hypocrite. If you want to call me a hypocrite, you need to quote my words. Can you do that? Only then can I straighten out your confusion, because you clearly are confused.

TIMMY2

You wrote, "You misunderstand "free will" so I will explain it to you."

Quite a paragraph, but to me free will just means that we are not "puppets on a string", if you have ever made a bad decision then you can blame it on God for not making you perfect that is your decision, some people blame other people, some blame satan, some blame God and others take responsiblity for the decisions that they make.

You seem to think of people as just a "thing", a "commodity", a "product", rather than each and every one of us as unique individuals. Is this what rationality and logic devoid of the intangibles of life leads to? Sounds pretty bleak to me. You may have heard of Star Trek and I know it was just a TV show and a movie or so but even Mr. Spock had feelings, do you?

A mind divorced from the heart can become quite an ugly thing and we have seen this many times throughout history.

You also wrote, " All you have as evidence for God is your tall tale about meeting God personally which everyone knows is a lie.", absolutely no one knows that it is a lie for the simple reason that it is not a lie and not even everyone believes that it is a lie.

I would like to ask you a question, what gives you the right to speak for everyone?

Then you wrote, "Not even the Pope has claimed what you claim.", have you ever thought that maybe the Pope has not met the Trinity and maybe the Pope has not met satan, you would have to ask the Pope about that. I wasn't asked to speak for the Pope, I was asked to speak for God.

By the way, when I took that course the answer to the question I asked you was that nobody knows what electricity is, is that still the answer?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Timmy2

When someone intentionaly blinds himself to reason only then he becomes Spritually so aroused that he can seperate reliogion and sprituality -
Wow! what a hypocracy.
I dont know what is your age but sincerely you need a lot of learning still before you diliver sound comments of a forum.
sorry for that.

Nevermore53

You ask: "Do you believe in anything spritual whatsoever or do you just despise religion? This is not a trick question. I am a non-religionist, however, I am a spritualist."

Man, you haven't been reading my posts. I consider myself to be more spiritual than any religious person I have ever encountered.

Religion and spirituality are two completely separate things.
Not only does spirituality not require religion. but religion actually stands in the way of true spirituality. Spirituality is a search for the truth. Religion is the acceptance of one peoples version of the truth. See the difference? Spirituality is honest. No one knows the mystery of life. It is an open question. Religion is dishonest. They have the answer, God, and here are his rules.

I am against religion precisely because I am spiritual.
One need not check reason and rationality at the door when being contemplative about spiritual matters.

Spirituality good
Religion bad

Spirituality honest
Religion dishonest

spirituality - search for the truth
Religion - Keeper of the truth

Peace

Hi there, Thomas Paul Moses!

Hope all is well with you! Although we disagree about the nature of God, I know that you mean well. Don't let Timmy2 rattle your cage!

As for you, Timmy2, I have one question. Do you believe in anything spritual whatsoever or do you just despise religion? This is not a trick question. I am a non-religionist, however, I am a spritualist.

Thomas Baum

You misunderstand "free will" so I will explain it to you.
It is simply the lack of a barrier to acting on the decisions that we make. Not the decision making tool. The decisions that we make, we make with our reasoning and our judgement not with our free will. Free will is only the lack of a barrier to acting on the decisions that we make with our reasoning and our judgment. Where did we get our reasoning and our judgement from? from the almighty creator of course. And if we make bad decisions and bad judgments, our reasoning and judgement faculties must be flawed. Otherwise wee would make good decisions. But we often make bad decisions in the eyes of the lord, so our reasoning and judgment faculties must be flawed. But this creates a logical fallacy in your faith. God can not be perfect if he gave us faulty faculties. Unless he did it on purpose, in which case he can not be loving if he is punishing us for our flaws that he gave us on purpose.

The existence of a perfect, all powerful, and loving God is a logical fallacy. It can not exist. The whole premiss is flawed. A manufacturer can not blame it's product for being faulty. Free will does not explain the faulty reasoning and judgement faculties that a creature must have in order to make bad decisions. God must have given us faulty reasoning and judgement faculties or we would be making good decisions not bad ones. God can not blame us for our faulty reasoning and judgement. Or rather, he can blame us, but that makes him definitely not loving. It makes him a jerk.

You religion is a paradox and a logical fallacy. A manufacturer blaming it's product for being faulty.

Thomas you said:
"I will mention a couple of things and you can decide if you have perceived some or all of them with you senses: an atom, an electron, a proton, the nucleus of an atom, a black hole, any subatomic particle, electricity.

Yes, I have seen all of these things or evidence for all of these things with my senses. Ever heard of a microscope? There is evidence for everything that you mentioned. And good reason to believe those things exist. All you have as evidence for God is your tall tale about meeting God personally which everyone knows is a lie. Not even the Pope has claimed what you claim.

Jamil 51 wrote:

"READERS: Don’t believe twisted cut/pastes about Islam. Read the Holy Book Quran your self"

Been there done that.

It is the scariest, most misogynist, most delusional ideology ever written by human hands. I implore everyone to do what Jamil says.
Read the book yourself!

As an example I will cut and paste one line from Jamil's post that reverses everything that the profit says about being good to your women.

"And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste"

How is this out of context Jamil?
How does this verse translate into equality for women?
Is it because in the line before he says this???

"Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers"

Yes treat them well. And treat your dogs well too. Be kind to your dogs and camels for they are your committed helper.

I love how Jamil thinks that the verses that he quoted actually vindicate the Koran instead of pointing out just how ridiculously misogynist it is. This is truly blind faith. Scary.

TIMMY2

You wrote, "I guess we both better start coming up with evidence if we want to convince the other that we are telling the truth."

If you have read what I have been writing you should have seen that I have said that I am not here to convince anyone of anything, I am just here to try to do what God chose for me to do.

Then you wrote, "Your point was that God is watching all of these horrors unfold and sitting there not doing a thing about it, because he has some kind of mysterious plan that involves first allowing millennia of horror in his name to unfold? Bad plan. What a jerk!"

God gave us free will and the only limitations on God, at least for now, are those that are Self-imposed. Free will would not be free will if it were not free. Have you ever thought that maybe it is up to us to do something if it is in our power to do it?

Do you think that God is a jerk because He gave you free will or because He gave everyone free will?

You also said "bad plan", is that because it is God's Plan for ALL OF HUMANITY to be with Him in His Kingdom? This is exactly what a lot of "Christians" don't cotton to either.

Anyone can pull something out of the bible to justify their own shortcomings, shall we say, and many, many have thru the ages. I look at the big picture of the bible, so to speak, and by the way I am not God, I am just a messenger.

I have heard some people say that they cannot reconcile what they perceive as the sternest of God in the OT with the loving God of the NT.

Since God gave us free will, even God had to have at least some to follow Him in complete obedience so that it would be safe enough for Him to become One of us and live long enough to do what He came for.

Then you wrote, "Can you prove that God exists?"

No, I can't but don't worry God will in due time.

I wrote, ""In the material world, there are many things that you believe to be true that you have never perceived with your senses, are there not?""

You answered, "No.
Name one."

I will mention a couple of things and you can decide if you have perceived some or all of them with you senses: an atom, an electron, a proton, the nucleus of an atom, a black hole, any subatomic particle, electricity.

This might be off the topic but I remember when I took a physics, for the non-scientist, course, one of the first questions that the professor asked was: What is electricity? Do you know the answer?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Part 1

Negative comments are so many on this forum but what is the message of Hajj no one mentioned that very important aspect.

Here is Prophet Muhammad’s Farewell Sermon:

After praising, and thanking God he said:

"O People, lend me an attentive ear, for I know not whether after this year, I shall ever be amongst you again. Therefore listen to what I am saying to you very carefully and TAKE THESE WORDS TO THOSE WHO COULD NOT BE PRESENT HERE TODAY.

O People, just as you regard this month, this day, this city as Sacred, so regard the life and property of every Muslim as a sacred trust. Return the goods entrusted to you to their rightful owners.
Hurt no one so that no one may hurt you. Remember that you will indeed meet your Lord, and that He will indeed reckon your deeds.

God has forbidden you to take interest, therefore all interest obligation shall henceforth be waived. Your capital, however, is yours to keep. You will neither inflict nor suffer any inequity. God has Judged that there shall be no interest and that all the interest due to (Prophet's uncle) shall henceforth be waived...

Beware of Satan, for the safety of your religion. He has lost all hope that he will ever be able to lead you astray in big things, so beware of following him in small things.

O People, it is true that you have certain rights with regard to your women, but they also have rights over you. Remember that you have taken them as your wives only under Allah's trust and with His permission. If they abide by your right then to them belongs the right to be fed and clothed in kindness. Do treat your women well and be kind to them for they are your partners and committed helpers. And it is your right that they do not make friends with any one of whom you do not approve, as well as never to be unchaste.

READERS: Don’t believe twisted cut/pastes about Islam. Read the Holy Book Quran your self.

Part 2

O People, listen to me in earnest, worship God, say your five daily prayers , fast during the month of Ramadan, and give your wealth tax. Perform Hajj if you can afford to.

All mankind is from Adam and Eve, an Arab has no superiority over a non-Arab nor a non-Arab has any superiority over an Arab; also a white has no superiority over black nor a black has any superiority over white except by piety and good action.

Learn that every Muslim is a brother to every Muslim and that the Muslims constitute one brotherhood. Nothing shall be legitimate to a Muslim which belongs to a fellow Muslim unless it was given freely and willingly. Do not, therefore, do injustice to yourselves.

Remember, one day you will appear before God and answer your deeds. So beware, do not stray from the path of righteousness after I am gone.

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the QURAN and my example, my examples and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better than those who listen to me directly. Be my witness, O God, that I have conveyed your message to your people".

READERS: Don’t believe twisted cut/pastes about Islam. Read the Holy Book Quran your self.

Thomas, "god seer"/"god talking", the Moses of the NT, Baum, has some significant hallucination issues and should seek treatment immediately.

Colinnicholas and Justacomment

Thank you for your comments. I couldn't agree more of course.
Go enlightenment 2.0 go!

Arminius said to me:

"You are a spammer here. Your endless posts enlighten nobody"

Can you back up this baseless accusation with some quotes and rebuttals?

I doubt it. Did you add any new information or ideas in your last posts or are you just taking shots at others?

You are the spammer here my friend.

Arminius,

I suggest you take note of the fact that I did not address Thomas first, it was he who took issue with my comments to other bloggers. He then attacked my posts to others at length. All I did was defend my positions while pointing out where I thought Thomas was wrong about what he said to me.

Please show me where I said anything uncalled for to Thomas.

Arminius,

Show me where I have been impolite to Thomas

I have not called him names, or insulted him personally, or yelled at him, have I???

Can you quote what you are talking about and be specific?

I critique bad ideas and beliefs, not people. I have nothing against thomas or any Christian. Just religion.

Yoyo,

Remember this: Thomas Baum is simply setting forth what he believes. He makes NO judgment whatsoever. He also will insist that no one should ever try to force a belief on anyone else. If you don't believe me, ask him, he will answer.

Try some tolerance here, please.

Colinnicholas/Yoyo,

You wrote,
"Thomas Baum may be what you say he is...but he's also out of his mind. I've had skirmishes with him in the past and I believe he's the most raving of the maniacs you refer to"

Maniacs? Apparently you haven't met Spidey. Thomas Baum is compassionate and polite, and sets forth the love preached by Jesus. Spidey spews hatred and the typical fire and brimstone of the fanatical right. Which would you rather have as a neighbor?

With respect, please try to see the good and/or bad in a person, and don't make judgments based on your own beliefs or lack thereof.

Aeminius;
You say to Timmy;
"Thomas Baum is one of the most compassionate and polite people on this blog of mostly raving maniacs. I suggest you treat him with the same respect with which he treats you. Are you capable of that?"

Thomas Baum may be what you say he is...but he's also out of his mind. I've had skirmishes with him in the past and I believe he's the most raving of the maniacs you refer to. Even you haven't claimed
to have actually met the Great Invisible SkyFairy.
But Thomas has been there and done that.

The atheist who formerly posted as Yoyo.

Timmy2.

I've been following your argument with Thomas Baum. You make a lot of really good sense.
One thing I learned is that sense will get one only so far when chatting with the religiously deluded.
Like Thomas - they can all claim to KNOW God, and to have experienced God. I think it was Thomas Szaz who said "If you claim you talk to God -that's religion; if you claim God talks to you - that's called schizophrenia".
I'm with Dr Szaz.

Copy of a comment I posted in another thread:

"I watched the movie that Timmy2 recommended (http://www.zeitgeistmovie.com/ ). The content of the first part -about 40 minutes- is a good example of what should be taught in the schools in all countries in the world: a historical review of the common myths that are the origin of the main religions. By teaching this to young people the percentage of extremists in the next generation of religious people could go down.

If the schools complement this teaching critical thinking and concepts of human rights, in few decades will be possible to live in a more peaceful world. Why? Simply because citizens in each country will not blindly follow crazy government leaders nor fanatic head of churches.

Well, this is just a comment or merely a good dream…"

Peace to all

Timmy,

Thomas Baum is one of the most compassionate and polite people on this blog of mostly raving maniacs. I suggest you treat him with the same respect with which he treats you. Are you capable of that?

You are a spammer here. Your endless posts enlighten nobody.

Thomasbaum,

You wrote:

"I have met God and God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE"

I have met Elvis, today at the mall. He is a being of true love and the creator of everything.

Do you believe me?
I don't believe you either
I guess we both better start coming up with evidence if we want to convince the other that we are telling the truth.

You wrote:
:"Just because some do some things supposedly in someone else's name, does that really mean anything?"

Your point was that God is watching all of these horrors unfold and sitting there not doing a thing about it, because he has some kind of mysterious plan that involves first allowing millennia of horror in his name to unfold? Bad plan. What a jerk!

And gay bashers are not misinterpreting the Bible.

Lev 20:13
13 If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Gay bashers are interpreting the Bible correctly.
But the Bible is wrong. So is Gay bashing.

You wrote:
"Do you really think that you or mankind in general are going to stop: "Murder, rape, cancer, tsunamis, floods, global warming," and a myriad of other things which by some of your postings you imply?"

Do you really thin that God is going to stop them?
What's he waiting for, it's been 200,000 years?
We're going to have to put an end to those things.
I don't see God doing anything about any of those things.
Who else besides man can stop them? I can prove that man exists.
Can you prove that God exists?

You wrote:
"In the material world, there are many things that you believe to be true that you have never perceived with your senses, are there not?"

No.
Name one.

TIMMY2

I wrote, ""Some of the "learned" are so "learned" that some cannot even fathom that something "incomprehensible" could be as simple yet "inconceivable to the human mind" as a BEING OF PURE LOVE""

You replied, "I have no doubt that they can all fathom it. I can fathom it. That doesn't mean that it exists. It just means that we have good imaginations."

I have met God and God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE and I, personally, can neither fathom nor conceive of a BEING OF PURE LOVE, yet I know it is true and it has absolutely nothing to do with "good imaginations".

You then wrote, "Millennia of religious war in his name, Murder, rape, cancer, tsunamis, floods, global warming, and he remains silent. Awesome plan! Where do I sign up to worship this guy?"

Just because some do some things supposedly in someone else's name, does that really mean anything?

Do you really think that you or mankind in general are going to stop: "Murder, rape, cancer, tsunamis, floods, global warming," and a myriad of other things which by some of your postings you imply?

God set this world up with natural laws and He also gave us free will.

God also has a Plan which He has had since before creation which is for ALL OF HUMANITY to be in His Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth.

There seem to be plenty of "religious" people that do not seem to care for this Plan, it seems that with some as long as they get to the "good" place that is all that they are concerned about.

We will all be judged, like I have said many times: It is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows and God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof.

As far as your analogy goes, not all people who smoke cigarettes get cancer but as far as the mortality rate goes, last that I heard it is hovering right around 100%.

I wrote,"Reality is reality, even the reality that we cannot perceive with our everyday senses is still reality".

You replied, "How do you know it's there if you can not perceive it with your senses?"

I know God is Real because He revealed Himself to me. I am not asking you or anyone else to believe me, I am just stating a fact.

In the material world, there are many things that you believe to be true that you have never perceived with your senses, are there not?

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomasbaum

You said:

"Seems as if Richard Dawkins is open to the existence of God by his own statement"

So am I. I am open to any possibility.
I just need some kind of evidence that he exists, or some good reason to believe that he exists. Neither of those things exists, so I do not believe that he exists currently. Like any good scientist, I am always prepared to be proven wrong.

You said:

"Some of the "learned" are so "learned" that some cannot even fathom that something "incomprehensible" could be as simple yet "inconceivable to the human mind" as a BEING OF PURE LOVE"

I have no doubt that they can all fathom it. I can fathom it. That doesn't mean that it exists. It just means that we have good imaginations.

You said:

"Jesus taught something that is so simple yet so hard to actually live up to and since God knew that there would be some, who knows how many I don't, that would never listen, He came up with His Plan which is unfolding before our very eyes and which will come to Fruition"

Millennia of religious war in his name, Murder, rape, cancer, tsunamis, floods, global warming, and he remains silent. Awesome plan! Where do I sign up to worship this guy?

You said:

"By the way, why would you want to "change people"? Do you know what is best for everyone?"

Don't you think it was a good thing that we "changed" people with regards to racism? How about slavery? Don't some people who see something horrible that the masses are doing that they can not see for some reason, have to speak up and try to effect "change" sometimes? Guess what?

You said:

"but when someone or a group of someones want to tell others how to live and what to think are they not making themselves gods, trying to lord themselves over others?"

I am not telling anyone how to live. Here is the analogy of what I am doing.
There is nothing hypocritical about one person making both of the following statements.

1) I believe that people should be allowed to smoke cigarettes until the get cancer and die.

2) People should not smoke cigarettes because they will get cancer and die.

I am not telling people how to live their lives. I'm pointing out something that I believe is bad for people. I am not alone.

You said:

"Reality is reality, even the reality that we cannot perceive with our everyday senses is still reality"

How do you know it's there if you can not perceive it with your senses?

Agnostics do not believe in God. They believe that God is possible.
They certainly do not believe in God enough to spell it G_d.

Sparrow

Part two

You said, of religion: "Maybe its just a basic need"

How could it be when billions live without it?

"but the origins of the universe, that's still an enormous mystery"

Blaspheme! The nice Christians whose belief you defend think you are going to hell for that statement. Unless you repent, sinner. But I agree with you. It is a mystery. Here you and I both disagree with religion.

"I have no problem with religion-it provides much comfort to millions, structure, community"

But at what cost? When all of those things can be provided through reasoned spirituality and the real community.

"But I also don't blame religion for the things people do in its name. After all that's what free will is about"

Ex 35:2
2  For six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy sabbath of solemn rest to the Lord; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death"

Above is religion.

"Love thy neighbor" is philosophy.

You confuse the two often.
The philosophy in the Bible that you would call "the good parts" are all philosophies created by men not by God. They would be available and cherished and worshipped as enlightening works of wisdom from our ancestors. The words themselves are powerful enough if they touch people's souls. And clearly they do. Adding the idea that these good words, are the words of the creator of the universe, who is the same guy who said all of those chapters and chapters full of the most horrible morals ever put down on paper. What a terrible idea. Those beautiful words should stand alone, for what they really are. Words of wisdom from our ancestors that still resonate today.

Sparrow,

"tim- wouldn't you agree that some people operate out of fear, some out of simple goodness, some because they were raised to do so, and some always operate out of sheer self-interest?"

I would not agree at all. I would say that all people operate out of all of these qualities at various times, depending on the situation. I do not believe that anybody operates out of just one of these qualities all the time, nor that anybody is immune to operating out of all of them at some time in their life.

This is based on my observations of people in my 42 years of life.

Another point to consider is that while people abuse religion and use it to justify what they do, Mosiac law set out a number of principles that we still use today.(Other famous codes of law are the Code of Hammurabi and the Justinian code.) so essentially religion not only defined what to worship and how to worship, but also provided a code of behavior. Some of it is very harsh by today's standards but consider the times these laws were written.

thou shalt not kill is a staple of law today (would that more people would follow it). Religion was the impetus for a code of ethical and moral behavior- perhaps in ancient times it took a belief in g-d to impose these laws. but the other aspects of faith is not everyday laws but a belief in something greater. Don't forget, the ancients didn't understand the world as we do- they didn't have the advantage of thousands of years of accumulating knowledge.

Maybe its just a basic need. certainly we adjust our understanding or idea of what G-d is. we now know what thunder and lightning are, a function of earth's ecosystem,but the origins of the universe, that's still an enormous mystery.

I have no problem with religion-it provides much comfort to millions, structure, community. But I also don't blame religion for the things people do in its name. After all that's what free will is about.

Conservative Jews are not agnostic. They firmly believe in G-d- it's the daily details where they differ from the Orthodox.

And Conservative Jews would be classified and "jewnostics"??

New Torah For Modern Minds
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/abstract.html?res=F20E1EFE35540C7A8CDDAA0894DA404482

New Torah For Modern Minds

Abraham, the Jewish patriarch, probably never existed. Nor did Moses. The entire Exodus story as recounted in the Bible probably never occurred. The same is true of the tumbling of the walls of Jericho. And David, far from being the fearless king who built Jerusalem into a mighty capital, was more likely a provincial leader whose reputation was later magnified to provide a rallying point for a fledgling nation.
Such startling propositions -- the product of findings by archaeologists digging in Israel and its environs over the last 25 years -- have gained wide acceptance among non-Orthodox rabbis. But there has been no attempt to disseminate these ideas or to discuss them with the laity -- until now.

The United Synagogue of Conservative Judaism, which represents the 1.5 million Conservative Jews in the United States, has just issued a new Torah and commentary, the first for Conservatives in more than 60 years. Called ''Etz Hayim'' (''Tree of Life'' in Hebrew), it offers an interpretation that incorporates the latest findings from archaeology, philology, anthropology and the study of ancient cultures. To the editors who worked on the book, it represents one of the boldest efforts ever to introduce into the religious mainstream a view of the Bible as a human rather than divine document."

Jewnostics wonder if G-d exists- we are not sure, whereas what you're talking about are jewtheists :-)

tim- wouldn't you agree that some people operate out of fear, some out of simple goodness, some because they were raised to do so, and some always operate out of sheer self-interest?

Another point to consider is that while people abuse religion and use it to justify what they do, Mosiac law set out a number of principles that we still use today.(Other famous codes of law are the Code of Hammurabi and the Justinian code.) so essentially religion not only defined what to worship and how to worship, but also provided a code of behavior. Some of it is very harsh by today's standards but consider the times these laws were written.

thou shalt not kill is a staple of law today (would that more people would follow it). Religion was the impetus for a code of ethical and moral behavior- perhaps in ancient times it took a belief in g-d to impose these laws. but the other aspects of faith is not everyday laws but a belief in something greater. Don't forget, the ancients didn't understand the world as we do- they didn't have the advantage of thousands of years of accumulating knowledge.

Maybe its just a basic need. certainly we adjust our understanding or idea of what G-d is. we now know what thunder and lightning are, a function of earth's ecosystem,but the origins of the universe, that's still an enormous mystery.

I have no problem with religion-it provides much comfort to millions, structure, community. But I also don't blame religion for the things people do in its name. After all that's what free will is about.

Sparrow

Part two

You said:

"But those who came out of compassion, did believe they were guided by faith. So in the end does it really matter if they did it out of the goodness of their own hearts or out of their religious faith?"

They did do it out of the goodness of their own hearts. You said it yourself above. They did it out of their strong belief in human goodness. They worship their human goodness and the human goodness of others, and they have faith in it, and they were brainwashed as children to connect that faith to an institution that was a calculated invention of corrupt Roman politicians who devised a brilliant plan to hijack people's faith in Human goodness, and put it into an institution concerned primarily with power and money. (because money is power) And you must believe, or you burn in Hell. Brilliant.

Those good people would have done what they done, with or without having their faith in human goodness hijacked as children and personified into a celestial dictator, who created you flawed, and punishes you for being flawed. But he loves you.

Now since those people would be doing those good things anyway, what is religion good for?

We all know the horror that it causes. If it only cause one of it's many horrors. Let;s just take one of it's many horrors. Forget the all of the religious wars over the years, forget the inquisition and the crusades, and the muslim conquests, and the gay bashing, and the stem cell research blocking, and the global warming denial, (because it's just god huggin us closer is all) for get all of those negatives. Let's pretend that all of that never happened, if good people will do good things anyway, because of a strong belief and worship of human goodness, then wouldn't the enslavement of 700 million muslim women, by the most misogynist ideology ever know to man, be enough to say, hey man, what does this religion thing, that isn't true, doing for us. Why do we keep it around?

Sparrow

"actually I never said I didn't believe in g-d. I'm more of a jewnostic, if you catch my drift"

I am in the entertainment industry, I work closely with many jewnostics and have several jewnostic friends. None of them believe in God. So if you could clarify what your kind of jewnosticism entails, I might understand you better.

You said:
"My closest friend is a born-again christian who would be the same goodhearted, ethical person no matter what"

Thank you! If there is a main point to my argument, you just summed it up in one sentence.

When people say "look at all of the good things that religion has done", they don't seem to realize that those good people would be doing those good things anyway, whether they believed in a dangerous myth that isn't true, or not.

Because what they really believe in, is human goodness.
And when they were children, they were indoctrinated and brainwashed to believe that, that human goodness that we all feel, that thing that causes us all to get a lump in our throat at the same scene in the movie where someone does something selfless to save an innocent, or when someone achieves something great because they believed in themselves, they are told that that feeling is connected to the God of Abraham, which is a rather nasty myth that says that our universe is a celestial dictatorship, and that they can achieve special favor with the dictator himself if they abide by the doctrine.

Putting our little world into perspective as per Phil Berman in his column in this month's Astronomy Magazine:

"Bob Berman's strange universe: Plenty of nothing"

Your bedroom is not an ideal place to contemplate vacuums. We live in an unusually dense environment; human fingertips alone tingle with a trillion quintillion atoms, and forget all the unloved fat diligently added at fast-food emporiums.

Over 99.9 percent of our body mass consists solely of protons and neutrons, each exactly as dense as a neutron star. But these hyper-compact particles are each a gnat in an empty stadium. If we could suck out all the wasteful space within and between our body atoms and pack the entire human race down to its actual solids, it could all be presented with trumpets and fanfare as a single sugar cube weighing 500 million tons. Remove all our hot air and Homo sapiens is 1 cc, ready to party."

tim- actrually I never said I didn't believe in g-d. I'm more of a jewnostic, if you catch my drift. My closest friend is a born-again christian who would be the same goodhearted, ethical person no matter what.

I met loads of evangelical Christians at Ground Zero and there were those who felt they were guided by their beliefs to do good and those who cared only about evangelizing the grieving. But those who came out of compassion, did believe they were guided by faith. So in the end does it really matter if they did it out of the goodness of their own hearts or out of their religious faith?

Sparrow said:

"I will say this again- if you think any government is capable of "eradicating" religion you are much more daft than I could ever be"

When you assume, you make an ass out of U and me.

I have never suggested anything even close to the notion that any government anywhere should ever have any hand in eradicating religion anywhere. It is none of the governments business. I will defend freedom of religion to my grave with my life if I have to. People should always be free to believe whatever they want.

It's like smoking. It is not hypocritical to make both of the following statements.

People should be allowed to smoke cigarettes until they get cancer and die.

People should not smoke cigarettes because they will get cancer and die.
_________________________________________________________

People should be able to believe in and worship any God they want.

People should not worship God because the negative effects on our society far outweigh the positive.
_________________________________________________________

Sparrow, you do not believe in God, and I am confident that you have a fully functional life enriched with good friends, a sense of community, and love. I'm sure that you are charitable kind to your neighbors. What is different about these people you talk about who need religion to have all of these things that you have without it? What is different about them and you, that you don't need it, but they do?

Man, you guys crack me up.

You are all right though. I'm an out of touch loon
I was thinking about writing a song about my thoughts on these ideas that I've been blathering on about, but my ideas are so wack it probably wouldn't resonate with very many people and not become a hit song. But if I were to write that song, it would probably go a little something like this.

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
LIVING FOR TODAY...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do (for some of us anyway)
Nothing to kill or die for
AND NO RELIGION TOO
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one

Yeah, I can't see this lunacy resonating with very many people.

You know what I think? I think that John Lennon outed himself with those lyrics "and no religion too" as one of those damn New Atheist Hitchens, Harris, Dawkins type jerks who hate religion out of bigotry. God I hate the new atheists. Jerks. And that goes for John Lennon too. Jerk!

You guys are right.

Doesn't John Lennon know that the only way the whole world could come together is by totalitarian dictatorship? He is a bun bun.

You guys are all so ridiculous and hilarious I ought to be paying for this entertainment. I have to stop typing now and go laugh for a half hour or so.

Hey arminius- just my last check in. I'm off to a VFW post Xmas party for wounded warriors. I know it will be heartbreaking and inspiring at the same time. I made little gifts for them all but nothing holds a candle to them.

timmy is more polite- at least he doesn't constantly cut and paste over and over again. I certainly give him that.

Hi Sparrow and Justillthen,

Yer right, poor Tim is a Bun-Bun (CCNL) clone, but more polite. Might as well talk to a brick wall.

sparrow4:

:-)

Just say No to ...Timmy's.

justillthen- LOL!!!! You even said some of the exact same stuff to him I did!

Hey justillthen- we should start a "Don't bother with timmy club" :-)

I'll look at the Jacoby thread- and thanks.

Hello sparrow4,

I agree. I can't be bothered with Timmy2 either. I tried and failed. Useless. Just combative without an effective and receptive input. I have been batting it around with him on Susan Jacoby's thread. I just dropped it because he is a deadend street.

tim- oh really. it is so obvious you haven't thought this through.I can't e bothered. You started out with an initial premise that if nationalism and religion were eradicated there would be one government. I said, no, people are also fighting over natural resources. You haven't grasped this point at all. we're talking BEFORE, Tim, not after.

that's the last I'll deal with you. You haven't a clue. You're immensely simplistic in your thinking and I will say this again- if you think any government is capable of "eradicating" religion you are much more daft than I could ever be. what government needs to eradicate is intolerance ( of which you have a boatload), racism, hunger, ignorance and poverty. Remove religion and you still got all those. And that's the last of my time I will waste on you.

Sparrow

YOU: "there are no modern internal democratic wars over resources (how about wars with other countries? Isn't that the REAL problem)? "

Yes. It is now because there are separate countries.
In a one world government there is only one country. So what country would that one country fight with???????

Are you completely daft?

I

Sparrow et all

Imagine if science were to make a breakthrough discovery tomorrow that proved that God does not exist.

Now, based on what you are saying, all of those people doing all of those good things i the church right now would suddenly stop and become selfish greedy bastards. They would no longer have sufficient reason to help their fellow man. They would no longer feel a sense of community with one another and of course, while all religious wars would end immediately, this would not make the world a better place because of the negative effect of people having no more good reason to be nice to each other and love one another anymore.

Would the church goers change their community loving ways?
No more bake sales?
No more humanitarian relief efforts?

This is the logic of asinine statements like "look at all of the good things that religion does".

Good people will always do good things.
Bad people will always do bad things.
But for good people to do bad things, it takes religion.

And tim- aren't you jumping the gun here, assuming the one government would be democratic?

"Here it is again. name me one modern democratic country that has ever fought internally over the natural resources within it's own borders."

The United States, Civil War. (Get a real in depth history book- it might shock you to know it was not all about politics and freeing the slaves). And what a dumb statement- the problem is not internal wars- its wars between countries over resources. You're totally avoiding the issue by throwing up an irrelevant, meaningless point. And then you qualify it by saying "democratic." Nice try but that's not the way debate works.

I dealt with your original premise that get rid of nationalism and religion and all the problems will be solved. I said there were more issues than just those two and you start rambling off in all different directions-I'm defending religion- Are people good if they do good works because G-d tells them too- there are no modern internal democratic wars over resources (how about wars with other countries? Isn't that the REAL problem)? ...blah....blah....blah

For the record Islam is growing faster than atheism. Do more research.

You decided your ideas about religion are the correct ones. And ergo your idea about the future is about eradicating religion. There are billions of people who disagree with you. That's reality. Like it or lump it. There are many more issues that divide people than nationalism. You don't accept that reality. There is no more discussion on this- you can't discuss anything when someone has laid out their basic premises and expects all discussion to start from that opinion in order to be valid.

So- its a futile conversation.

sparrow

You said:
"I keep mentioning resources- natural resources, oil, minerals, land for growing food, etc. You keep ignoring it"

You are unbelievable. I have covered the natural resource point multiple times, every time you mentioned it I dealt with it. Here it is again. name me one modern democratic country that has ever fought internally over the natural resources within it's own borders. It doesn't happen. If the world had one government, a democratic government by the people for the people, how do you see there being fighting over resources? Name a modern democratic country that fights itself over it's own resources. Fighting over resources only happens because different people own resources. In a one world democracy, all of the people would own all of the resources.

You said: "Many people do turn away from faith- but many more are turning to it according to reports"

The fastest growing demographic in the world right now is "not religious"

YOU: "And while you are concentrating on what you don't like about religion (as do I), you're condemning everything about religion"

Religion is just the believing in "God of the Bible" part.
All of the kumbaya stuff with all of the love and compassion and community, all of that stuff is just philosophy. Secular philosophy. No need for belief in something that is not true.

YOU: "religion can be of enormous benefit"

You need to demonstrate how.

YOU: "Look at the good works of hundreds of thousands of churches across the country. groups like the Southern baptists and the Salvation Army do incredible disaster relief work"

Those are good people doing good things because they have big hearts. If they are only doing it because their God commands, What does that say about them?

How is it the belief in God part that makes them do good?

TIMMY2

You wrote, "Oh but we are changing people. The learned are speaking up.
Books on the best sellers list in the last five years."

If something is on the best sellers list that means that it sold a lot, nothing more and nothing less.

One of the books that you referred to was written by Richard Dawkins and in Time magazine dated 11-13-2006 there was an article entitled "God vs science" in which Richard Dawkins said at the end, "If there is a God, it's going to be a whole lot bigger and a whole lot more incomprehensible than anything that any theologian of any religion has ever proposed."

Seems as if Richard Dawkins is open to the existence of God by his own statement.

Some of the "learned" are so "learned" that some cannot even fathom that something "incomprehensible" could be as simple yet "inconceivable to the human mind" as a BEING OF PURE LOVE.

It seems as if the "learned" of Jesus's day were just as close-minded as some of the "open-minded" learned of today.

Jesus taught something that is so simple yet so hard to actually live up to and since God knew that there would be some, who knows how many I don't, that would never listen, He came up with His Plan which is unfolding before our very eyes and which will come to Fruition.

By the way, why would you want to "change people"? Do you know what is best for everyone?

I can see why someone might want to change themself but when someone or a group of someones want to tell others how to live and what to think are they not making themselves gods, trying to lord themselves over others?

Some people speak of the ancients and about all of the gods that they had. What are our "gods", our intelligence, our fancy toys, among many others, has all of our bells and whistles changed human nature one bit?

People can place the "blame" on whatever they wish but ultimately it is a person or persons inhumanity against their fellow brothers and sisters, not what "label" they wish to hide behind or for others to put the "blame" on.

Reality is reality, even the reality that we cannot perceive with our everyday senses is still reality. Some wish to hide their heads in the sand and others try to devise rose-colored glasses to filter it out but reality does have a way of making itself known.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

JUSTILLTHEN

Thank you so much for your kind words.

Just trying to do what God chose me to do. Remember, we are all in this together and I do mean ALL.

One day ALL will know that God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE and that God's Plan is all of His children and since He became One of us, for all of His brothers and sisters.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I also wonder just how this world government would actually operate, given the regional, cultural and historical differences around the world. Access to resources? Food? How efficient and effective would it be without becoming totalitarian?

finally, remember, the futurists are in general much more highly educated than 99% of the world's population- ergo they operate in professional societies or communities that are often insulated, except for research, and don't live on the ground as it we with the majority of us Yahoos. There is an Ivory tower effect and a perception of things colored by that. You can do research, you can run up all the stats you want, you can conduct polls, you can factor is every quantifiable entity you can think of and it will give you trends and probabilities, but never a guarantee. The only way to guarantee you can control the world is by becoming totalitarian. For all the talk of futurists, how many of them are claiming the future is utopian? Every science fiction book I've ever read about such a "utopia" is always about a rebellion or revolution or subverting that government, fighting against its banality and heavy handedness.

People need and want identity. they need the basics of life- food, water, shelter. the government you talking about eradicates any identity- and the fall of communism shows that that simply doesn't work. Show people how to express their differences in religion and culture in a positive way, and it just might work.

Hi Arminius

Good to hear from you too. As you wrote, " In other words, we Christians must walk the walk, not just talk the talk.", and as it is written, God always sends someone to speak for Him and also as you believe and/or know God, Himself, became One of us to speak directly to us.

You also brought up St. Francis, "Preach the Gospel ...", as you know and some might not know the word Gospel means "Good News" and if that "Good News" is not ultimately for ALL OF HUMANITY and ALL OF CREATION then it is not Good News at all.

You also wrote, "I think that you are doing that. I am trying to do that." The best that we can do is try to follow Jesus in whatever way we believe He is leading us and be guided by the Holy Spirit. I am just trying to do what God chose me to do.

I believe you got Ghandi's quote more accurately than I did and something that it points out is that there is more to being a "Christian" than knowing God's Name.

Hang in there, He hung in there for us, ALL OF US.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

tim- I keep mentioning resources- natural resources, oil, minerals, land for growing food, etc. You keep ignoring it. You keep trying to make this a "simple matter" of tossing out religion and nationalism and all will be ok. And I for one (by the way I have been reading scifi since I was a child) do not believe religion will ever be gone from the planet, for many many reasons.

You are having a different argument with me- if yo have ever read anything of what I post you would know that I argue very much against the damage religion does- You seem to interpret this as me saying we must keep religion. the same thing with nationalism. Believe me- i would love the world to have a permanent kumbyah moment where we toss aside ouryarmulkes, headscarves, crucifixes, prayer wheels- whatever, and beat our swords into plowshares but I just don't see human psychology (without a heavy infusion of drugs, alcohol and flat screen tv's for everyone)being that flexible. Many people do turn away from faith- but many more are turning to it according to reports. the rise in atheism is a blip compared to the huge wave of growing religion. Catholics and Mainline Protestants may be losing adherents but the majority of those people are simply turning to other groups-evangelism seems to be attracting many. Islam and buddhism both are growing rapidly- far more rapidly than atheism or agnosticism.

And while you are concentrating on what you don't like about religion (as do I), you're condemning everything about religion- which I don't. faith is not subject to debate by talking points. You won't convince anyone to give up religion by claiming g-d is a bowl of noodles or a winged fairie thingie. People believe because the want or need too and like it or not, take away religion they'll find something else or become subversives.but if you educate people and eradicate the extremism and the abuses, religion can be of enormous benefit. Look at the good works of hundreds of thousands of churches across the country. groups like the Southern baptists and the Salvation Army do incredible disaster relief work (and I know this from first hand experience with them), on a par or greater than the Red Cross or FEMA.So what you're complaining about is not religion- its extremism and religious abuse. Unfortunately extremism can be applied to anything as the lives of Hitler, Lenin, Stalin, and Mao prove.

Observer,

I can not find any post on the pink people that explains the whole thing you are referring to. You seem to be referencing something I've never heard of. I have no idea what your post means. If you could elucidate.

Sparrow

You:said "As for religion- there are those it works for, others it doesn't.

As for heroin, there are those it works for, and those it doesn't

As for cigarettes, there are those it works for, and others it doesn't.

As for painkiller addiction. There are those it works for, and those it doesn't.

If you think that there is any difference between these things, you need to think again. An escape from the pain of reality is an escape from the pain of reality. An addiction is an addiction.

YOU: "Like everything else it can be abused and until you can change people, religion, faith is not going anywhere"

Oh but we are changing people. The learned are speaking up.
Books on the best sellers list in the last five years.

The End of Faith
The God Delusion
God is Not Great - How Religion Poisons Everything
Breaking The Spell
And many more like these.

Bill Maher's Movie Religulous

The Governor of Washington State has allowed and atheist plackard stating that "there is no God and religion is but a myth" to stand next to the nativity scene in the State Capital.

The fastest growing demographic in the world until 3 years ago was Muslim. It is now "not religious"

Church attendance is down all over the place, especially across Europe, Canada, Australia, Scandinavia...

Parents can no longer keep the real truth about religion from their children because of the internet. A Christian child could find it's way to the Zeitgeist movie website and watch the movie and come away knowing with 100% complete certainty that his parents religion is a myth, turned into religion by corrupt Roman politicians.

Atheist countries like Denmark are kicking everyone else's but on low crime and happiness of the populous.

You say faith isn't going anywhere? Think again my friend.
Faith hasn't gotten us anywhere. and it is slowly being abandoned.

Don't worry though. It's a good thing. No one is trying to force religion out of our society. We're just trying to enlighten our way out of it. Because It stands between us. Why you can't see that boggles my mind.

Sparrow

YOU: "But I have- several times over and you still refuse to acknowledge them. I've done so 3 times so I won't bother again"

No sir, you have not. I'm only asking for one reason. I've been through your posts. It's not there. If you think you have one, type it again, or cut and paste it. Saying "I won't bother again" is just a cop out.

YOU: "However I do stand by what I said about futurists. It's about probabilities, not guarantees"

You will have to show me where I said anything about it being guaranteed.

YOU: "Until the future happens, neithr one of us will know who won this argument"

I'm not sure what the argument is. You yourself said it would be "nice" if it happened, and you seem to have opened your mind up to the possibility that it could happen. (A long way from telling me I'm living in La la land) I assume that if you think that it would be "nice" then you should be all for it. I certainly can see why you can't see it happening in our lifetime or even in our children's lifetime. Neither do I. But 400 years from now? (If global warming doesn't wipe us out) I'd be shocked if we weren't sharing all of our resources and no longer praying to false gods, and siding with the ancient tribes of our ancestors. (ethnic groups) There is already a President of the united states who is a mix of several ethnicities. As globalization continues, you think that 400 years from now there are going to still be ethnic differences? I certainly don't. Sadly the biggest blockade to expanding the circle of cooperation to it's final inclusion is religion. Like racism, and nationalism, it creates false divisions between humanity. It divides us up into groups. Us vs them. And it's not true. There is the vinegar in the paper cut. It's not even true.

ThomasBaum:

Thank you for your thoughtful post, Thomas Moses.

I'm surprised that Astoria, a Muslim, highly knowledgeable in the Qu'ran has not commented on Jamil's and Deb's remarks on the sacred text, particularly since she is posting now.

I am very interested in the Qu'ran and would very much appreciate, Jamil, seeing a discussion among you, Astoria, and other Muslims on various passages in this text.

Thank you in advance.

But I have- several times over and you still refuse to acknowledge them. I've done so 3 times so I won't bother again. You have your view and I have mine- if I were you I wouldn't construe this as you overwhelming me with your brilliance and depth of thought. However I do stand by what I said about futurists. It's about probabilities, not guarantees. Science is filled with them. even scientists can be wrong. Until the future happens, neithr one of us will know who won this argument.

As for religion- there are those it works for, others it doesn't. Like everything else it can be abused and until you can change people, religion, faith is not going anywhere.

Timmy,

Just read it through, and try thinking. Then it might not seem so "stupid." If you don't like pink, choose another color.

Observer

Can't find it. Please post it again. Is it that stupid thing about pink people? If so I'm going to need you to be more clear about what the hell you mean by that.

Odd that the great Qu'ranic scholar astoria isn't blogging on these subtleties of the sacred text. Hopefully, she'll be along soon Jamil, Deb, et al.

Timmy2:

Are your really interested in a serious answer to your questions? I ask because I posted to you a couple of times--scroll down--and have yet to receive a reply.

Probably because or at least I hope it's because there's only one, and it will end your continual blather.

DebChatterjee :

"Say O Disbelievers
I worship not that which ye worship
Nor worship ye that which I worship
Nor will ye worship that which I worship
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion."
You said;
Which is Surah Al-Kafiryon. The message here is absolutely in contradiction with Quran [003:085].

And, as I know, latter verses in Quran on the same subject abrogate the previous ones. I know of a ayah which explicitly states this. This leads me to believe that you are misleading the reader about "peaceful" nature of Islam.

I do not agree with your finding that they condradict each other here is 3:85
" And whoever seeks a way other than this way a submission (Islam), will find that it will not be accepted from him and in the Life to come he will be among the losers."
or
Surah Az-Zumar: 14: "O Prophet, say to them: I shall serve God alone, making my religion sincerely His. As for you, you may serve whomever you please beside Him." (v. 14)

Not one contradicts the other or one is abrogated by the other here.
Quran in the very opening verses set the standard for those who wish to benefit for Quran and for those who choose to see Quran to find errors it just increases the darkness for them. I hope you must have read this too in Quran.

Hi, Thomas Baum,

Always good to read your posts. You said,
"First off, to know what Christianity is about not necessarily what it appears to be, one should look to Jesus and what He taught and Who He Is."

Yes, agreed!

Next, concerning Gandhi. What he said, if I remember correctly, is this: "If you Christians would live like your Christ instead of just talking about him, then everyone would want to be Christian." In other words, we Christians must walk the walk, not just talk the talk. Or, as St Francis said, "Preach the Gospel every day of your life, and use words when necessary". I think that you are doing that. I am trying to do that.

God bless.

Marc, Marc, Marc,

Hmmm, terror flows in most cases from the founder of the movement e.g. in Islam, there is the warmongering, hallucinating, womanizing and illiterate and long-dead Arab named Mohammed. In Christianity/"Paul et al-ing", there is the highly-embellished, generally peaceful and illiterate simple preacher man named Jesus. And then there was mythical Abraham!! The guy was about to do in his son but since said story was myth, so even myths can apparently give rise to the flow of terror. Then there was Hitler and Stalin and Mao !!How dumb can we be!!!

With respect to body counts as a measure of terror:http://users.erols.com/mwhite28/warstat0.htm- (some references "supporting" these numbers are very old and some very debatable)

Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries

1 55 million Second World War 20C

2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C

3 40 million Mongol Conquests 13C

4 36 million An Lushan Revolt 8C

5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C

TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN

Just a few comments concerning some of the things that have been bandied about on this post.

First off, to know what Christianity is about not necessarily what it appears to be, one should look to Jesus and what He taught and Who He Is.

One of the things that I have heard that Mahatma Ghandi is suppose to have said is if Christians were truly Christian than people would flock to become one. Personally, I do not agree with this statement because some people wouldn't want to become a Christian because then they would have to attempt to actually follow Jesus, which is not necessarily the same as calling yourself a Christian.

I think that I understand what Mahatma Ghandi meant tho because even tho he continued to be a Hindu, he seemed in some ways to be more Christian than some who identify themself as Christian.

Just a thought. Of course, I do not know a whole lot about Mahatma Ghandi but like I said, just a thought.

As I have previously stated many times it seems that a lot of people are going to be somewhat surprized, to put it mildly, when they find out that God, Who is a Trinity, is a searcher of hearts and minds and not of religious affiliations or lack thereof and that it is important what one does and why one does it and what one knows.

People can and do use whatever reason, be it religion, political, nationalistic, ethnic, racial, and the list can go on and on, to justify their own shortcomings and we all have shortcomings if we are honest enough to admit it.

It seems a very human trait to belittle others, does this make the belittler feel better about themself?

God is a BEING OF PURE LOVE, as in His Very Being not as in Love being an attribute of God, and we are ALL made in His Image whether we like it or not or even if His Image does not seem to be shining very brightly in some nevertheless we are.

Not only are we all sons and daughters of God but since God became One of us, we are all His brothers and sisters, we definitely seem to be a dysfuntional family, don't you think?

I am just a messenger, my Brother, your Brother, our Brother, Jesus, God-Incarnate, was also a messenger but He was also the MESSAGE.

The Message that Jesus came to teach us was Love and that God has a Plan for ALL OF HUMANITY and it seems that we still have not as a species taken that to heart.

God's Plan is for All to be with Him in His Kingdom, the new heavens and the new earth, on the seventh day of course the night of the sixth day will arrive before that.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

mortified469 writes
'Islam is spread by the sword. You either convert or die. Other religions are tolerant of each other, i.e., Islam is the religion of intolerance and hate'

Actually you're just a rather ignorant liar. Islam has a far cleaner history than Christianity. As for tolorance, Islam has a better history of religious tolorance than Christianity.
Ya got nothin!

Sparrow

Part two

As far as nationalism goes, it is one of those words with many definitions. I can see that you are hung up on that so I will stop using that term and from here on in just refer to it as the removal of the false borders that divide us.

You said:
"A world where everyone did unite would be very nice- all the predictions- nice"

Wow! progress. While you still seem skeptical that it will happen, we've come a long way getting you to admit that it would be nice. You are right. It would be nice. That is why we should strive to achieve that goal.

You said:
"but not guaranteed. (Sure, send me the addresses- is Nostradamus on that list?)"

I never said it was guaranteed. It is just a logical conclusion to the trend thus far. Family tribes to groups of tribes to city states, to countries to the UN and the EU and then eventually to one world working together, and then maybe a united federation of planets.

No not Nostradamus.
The only one I can think of off the top of my head is Thomas Friedman. But there are many more. I'm not going to bother to look them up for you. I could care less if you agree that we are moving in that direction as we should be.

You said:
"Word of advice- futurists predict based on probabilities- they are not seers"

Nor do they pretend to be.
Seers are usually wrong because their predictions are not based on science and reason but rather supernatural gobledigook. Futurists are usually right because their methods are reasoned, learned and scientific.

Sparrow

"And why are you quoting the bible to me? I keep reiterating my point but you keep missing it"

You are of the opinion that religion is not bad, but rather bad people bad things when they misinterpret religious texts. People with this attitude usually haven't read the Bible so I thought I'd how you and others on this thread that the Bible is a manual for genocide. That the extremists are the only ones who have religion right. That it is the moderates who have bastardized a manual for holy war into a supposedly moral guide.

Do you or do you not see religion as a net gain for society?
If you do see it as being more positive than negative, then those Bible quotes are for your eyes, because you need to wake up.
If you see religion as a net loss for society, then I'm not quite sure why we are debating because we would be in agreement there.

You said:
"You think the only issues are nationalism (as you "understand it"- the rest of us have a somewhat different idea- you can read the definitions I posted yesterday) and religion"

No. This is your misperception. Never have I said that nationalism and religion are the only two issues that cause conflict in our society. I did however point out quite correctly that many of the other problem (not all) come from religion and nationalism, such as dictators (god on earth religion, taking advantage of religious populous prone to worshiping a God) Resources, (no modern democracies in-fight over their own resources, therefore no borders = no fights over resources) Ethnic differences, (religion. show me what other than religion makes one ethnicity different from another)

You said:
" Maybe your mind can only cope with 2 issues at a time but the world is far more complex"

You keep saying that it is more complex but every single thing you have thrown at me I have shown how it would be moot were we to remove the borders between us that have no purpose. You have been unable to show a single reason why we need borders and separate governments. Not one single reason. So when you tell me that my view is simplistic, and that it is far more complex than that, and that we have more things to fight about than all of the things we have covered, and yet you can not name a single one.

In the last 24 hours there have been significant bombings in Fallujah, Iraq and Peshawar, Pakistan. This, of course, comes on the heals of the large attack last week in Mumbai and continued low grade attacks in Afghanistan. It is clear that the "war on terror" is having little to no effect on Islamic extremism, and it may be making it worse.

As a nation we have spent over $1 trillion on the military and intelligence since 9/11 as part of this "war." Obviously, at least ten percent of this money could be spent on foreign developmental aid to greater effect. Without the clear biblical arguments in favor of a different approach (see Romans 12:17-21), ones based on practicality are just as strong.

Look, we are paying former terorists $300 a month each in Iraq through the "awakening" movement not to attack our troops. It's seems to be working. Also note that Iraq has just agreed to a new security agreement with the US that sets a clear withdrawl date for our troops--you know, what the current administration has been fighting tooth and nail against for years. There can be no clearer admission that those in power have consistently been wrong more than they've been right on the most important issues. It cost our special forces only $70 million to persuade a critical mass of tribal elders and militias to help us overthrow the taliban in Afghanistan basically with just air power. And, taliban footsoldiers in Pakistan earn about twice as much as the police. Now, we are paying Pakistan about $700 to $800 million a year and almost none of it goes to development or towards police training in the lawless tribal areas where it is most needed.

In other words, not only do we have the wrong focus to our strategy, we are not getting our money's worth. Will there be something like a civil war when we draw down our troops in Iraq? Of course, there is no avoiding it with a current government of questionable legitimacy, and Muqtada and the Kurdish problem lurking in the corners. So, if it's inevitable, better now than later.

These are the areas where we need change. So far we've seen no evidence of any substantive difference to Obama's approach.

Jamil51:

You have quoted:

"Say O Disbelievers
I worship not that which ye worship
Nor worship ye that which I worship
Nor will ye worship that which I worship
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion."

Which is Surah Al-Kafiryon. The message here is absolutely in contradiction with Quran [003:085].

And, as I know, latter verses in Quran on the same subject abrogate the previous ones. I know of a ayah which explicitly states this. This leads me to believe that you are misleading the reader about "peaceful" nature of Islam.

Muslim rulers who ruled India did kill and/or forcibly convert Hindus. Yes, caste system was a factor but that notwithstanding indeed Muslim rulers destroyed temples, forced conversions. Sultan Qutb-ud-din Aibak, Gyas-ud-din Balban, Alaud-din Khilji did such "Islamic things" and they often took sanction from their court mullahs/maulvis. Aurangzeb was of course notorious for this.

However what is past of India's history cannot be changed. My point is that while Muslims I know are very decent, sober the doctrine of the religion of Islam is indeed coercive. How educated and secular minded Muslims practice Islam, doesn't indicate that the doctrine of Islam is devoid of hatred for other religions and cultures. By citing surahs from Quran that were later abrogated, you are not proving anything to the contrary of what I wrote.

On the rest, I'll let Ahab respond.

timmy- more kool-aid? Your reading comprehension is virtually nil. And why are you quoting the bible to me? I keep reiterating my point but you keep missing it. You think the only issues are nationalism (as you "understand it"- the rest of us have a somewhat different idea- you can read the definitions I posted yesterday) and religion. Maybe your mind can only cope with 2 issues at a time but the world is far more complex. A world where everyone did unite would be very nice- all the predictions- nice, but not guaranteed. (Sure, send me the addresses- is Nostradamus on that list?)

Word of advice- futurists predict based on probabilities- they are not seers, and the world is filled with futurists and Jehovah's Witnesses alike who predicted. The Witnesses have been adjusting their end of the world for some time now but hey- they predicted.

For the life of me I can't understand what your latest post has to do with what I wrote. But you seem a hallucinatory kind of guy- I shouldn't be surprised.

Sparrow

There are people called futurists. Predicting the future trends of human culture is their profession. They write books and articles in science magazines, and reports for the government. Every single futurist I have read predicts that humanity will evolve over the next several hundred years into a one world government. Most predict that english will win out as the one surviving language. Many predict that this will happen sooner than several hundred years now because of the global nature of the internet, and world human crisis like Global Warming which will, (like a foriegn enemy) unite us in a single goal.

I will see if I can find some e-mail addresses for these guys for you so you can send them a note, letting them know that based on your own expertise in the matter, you think that they are all crazy and living in la la land.

In the meantime, I wish you luck in your continuing efforts to defend the greatest lie ever told.

I'll leave you with some more comfort and moral guidance

Deuteronomy 21:18-21
18 If someone has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey his father and mother, who does not heed them when they discipline him, 19then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his town at the gate of that place. 20They shall say to the elders of his town, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21Then all the men of the town shall stone him to death. So you shall purge the evil from your midst; and all Israel will hear, and be afraid.

Religion is not the cause of violence. It's just violent people misinterpreting the peaceful nature of the scripture.

Ex 21:20-21
20 When a slave-owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. 21But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

The plus side of religion far outweighs the negative.

Gen 38:8-10
8Then Judah said to Onan, ‘Go in to your brother’s wife and perform the duty of a brother-in-law to her; raise up offspring for your brother.’ 9But since Onan knew that the offspring would not be his, he spilled his semen on the ground whenever he went in to his brother’s wife, so that he would not give offspring to his brother. 10What he did was displeasing in the sight of the Lord, and he put him to death also.

Religion is a net gain for society

DebChatterjee :

Abhab:

for DebChatterjee :

Very briefly I would try to answer your arguments.
Submission to Islam is for those who believe is Islam. Islam is not intolerant of other religions
Here is translation from Holy Quran by Muhammad
Pickthal:
Say O Disbelievers
I worship not that which ye worship
Nor worship ye that which I worship
Nor will ye worship that which I worship
Unto you your religion, and unto me my religion.

Show me where Islam takes the freedom of others or the plurality of religions. Islam believes in one God. The gods which are infact attributes like love, sex, revenge are not God. some people worship these arributes as gods.
In Saudia many thousand non-muslims stay and works and they possess their own religion no one ever force them to change their religion.
To safeguard and fight for religion Islam is not the first to require from its adheres look it to history and you will find many examples.
Islam never compel anyone to become muslim.
The muslims have ruled many parts of the world and India there is no example that muslim rulers forced their citizens to change their religion.
Therefore it is wrong notion that Islam is intolerant or cease freedom of human beings.

for Abhab:

Iranian reveloution churn out its sledge and few such infidels thought they can take their rage by abusing Islam and by spreading ambigious meanings of the Holy Quran.
Islam is religion of Prophet Ibrahim and Muhammad (PBUH) did not brought any new religion.
Before Islam scores of prophets were killed at the hands of pagans and non-believers.

Islam do asks its adherence to safe guard their beliefs and if it is attacked to defend.It is a valuable right of every human being.
And if Quran demands its followers to fight the war mongers and mischief doers what is wrong in it.
Dont you fight if someone enter your home or grab a part of it or force you to which school to send your children - would you fight with him or not.

Your quotes from Quran needs commentary as well as mere meaning of the arabic words do not tell the readers when they were revealed and on what occasion.

oh yes- that worked so well in Denmark.

As for the anti-christian version- I think you could expect similar reactions. Of course they would be even more dangerous since they are so embedded in this country and have so much power.

I'll agree with you on this- there is no zealot like a religious zealot.

A fellow called Duckphup posted this on on the main thread and I thought it deserved a posting on this one.
=========================================

This can be resolved… quickly… easily… economically… once and for all... WITHOUT resorting to the use of weapons.

The simple solution requires only that every day for one whole month, every newspaper in the free world devote half of its front page to offensive cartoons, ridiculing Allah (peace on him) and Mohammed (peace on him, too). By the end of that time, most of Islam will have self-destructed in a paroxysm of snits, hissy-fits and terminal apoplexy.

WARNING: This will not be pretty… but the world will be a much better place for it.

Regrettably, I can't think of a similarly uncomplicated, cost-effective and efficient stratagem for dismantling the christ-cult. Sorry.

nevermore wrote:"Again, I have no problem with Islam, I do have a problem with people who deny others their rights, forming into violent mobs, and threating others' lives."

ON that we are in agreement. My thing is that I won't condemn an entire religion or group of people when all the major religions have their extremists who believe that G-d supports them in their extremism, and none of them have clean hands when it comes to atrocities against others. CCNL has helpfully posted all the biblical commentary on many threads, quoting violent text from the OT and NT. I don't find that much different than what is in the Koran. Nor do I find the church pushing Prop8 any different than denying women rights (and it does lead to violence against gays). Members of the KKK were "upright Christians" too, don't forget- and yes there still is a KKK. Ask David Dukes.

I'm sure we can each come up with our own lists, but it seems to me that the majority of Muslims are not terrorists, and pretty much want to live their lives peacefully with family and friends. Just like you or I.

Jamil defines Islam as:

“Islam signifies nothing but obedience and submission to Allah, the Lord of the universe. The sun, the moon, the earth, and all other heavenly bodies are thus ‘Muslim’. So is the case with air, water, and heat, stones, trees, and animals. Everything in the universe is ‘Muslim’ for it obeys God by submission to his laws. Even a man who refuses to believe in God,"

The rest of the world defines it thus:
“A monotheistic religion characterized by the acceptance of the doctrine of submission to God and to Muhammad as the chief and last prophet of God. “
http://www.thefreedictionary.com/Islam

He pontificate:
‘Blowing one's self-up is not a easy thing, it arises out of grievances not by the teaching of Quran and Islam. This started because of occupation of Iraq and Afghanistan’

His Quran commands
"God has bought from the faithful their selves and their belongings against the gift of paradise; they fight in the way of Allah; they kill and get killed; that is a promise binding on Allah... (Quran 9: 110)
And
b. "Fight those who believe not in Allah and the Last Day and do not forbid what God and His Messenger have forbidden - such men as practice not the religion of truth, being of those who have been given the Book - until they pay the tribute out of hand and have been humbled." (Quran 9: 25)

He asks;
“In 1400 years of rich history it is only now that you come to know the errors in the teaching of this great religion?”
Moi:
This is because of the proliferation of the modes of communication that Muslim clerics have no control over.

He assures us thus:
"It (terrorism) has nothing to do with the religion Islam."

Moi:
"Remember Thy Lord inspired the angels (with the message): "I am with you: give firmness to the believers, I will instill terror into the hearts of the unbelievers, Smite ye above their necks and smite all their finger tips of them."(Quran 8:12)
And
"The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet and alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom;..."(Quran 5: 33-34)

Sparrow,

"You;re implying that something in Islam and the Koran make it inherently violent and xenophobic."

I don't know where that statement came from, but I am not implying anything. I am simply quoting history and facts.

Here are some more:

The murder of Dutch movie director Theo van Gogh was directly related to religion. Radical Islamist Mohammed Bouyeri confessed to the killing, claiming he acted out of religious conviction.

Gillian Gibbons (the British school teacher)is spending her second night in a Sudanese prison, accused of insulting Islam's Prophet. She faces a public lashing or up to six months in prison if found guilty on charges of blasphemy.

The publishing of the Mohammad cartoons in a Danish newspaper led to protests across the Muslim world, some of which escalated into violence with police firing on the crowds (resulting in more than 100 deaths, altogether), including setting fire to the Danish Embassies in Syria, Lebanon and Iran, storming European buildings, and desecrating the Danish, Dutch, Norwegian and German flags in Gaza City.

Now, all of these incidents are directly related to religion and whereas the Van Gogh murder was perpetrated by a single individual, the other two were clearly attended by large crowds of people not all of whom one would label an extremist under normal circumstances.

Again, I have no problem with Islam, I do have a problem with people who deny others their rights, forming into violent mobs, and threating others' lives.

Islam is spread by the sword. You either convert or die. Other religions are tolerant of each other, i.e., Islam is the religion of intolerance and hate.

Jamil51 wrote:

"In contrast to the man described above, there is the man who, although a born Muslim, does not exercise his faculties of reason, intellect, and intuition for recognizing his Lord and creator and misuses his freedom of choice by choosing to deny Him. Such a man becomes an unbeliever.The man who denies God is called is a concealer because he conceals by his disbelief what is inherent in his nature and embalmed in his own soul-for, indeed, his nature is instinctively imbued with ‘Islam’."

If this is what you put in defense of Islam (which means Submission), then surely Islam is the enemy of human freedom. What you are stating is that man (and all creatures) have to submit to "true belief". However, there is no credible "misuse" of "freedom" by a human being if s/he chooses to disbelieve. It is like wearing a particular pair of trousers which one likes to wear. What I may wear, may not appear right to you and you can always argue that I have misused my freedoms. But, who are you to tell me what is right and wrong ? In fact, what moral authority does Islam have to force me if I choose to be a deviant ? As long as that disbeliever is not hurting anyone else, and obeys all societal norms why should that human being be castigated ?

Similarly, those who have chosen to follow any other faiths different that in stark contrast with Islamic doctrines, can also be disbelievers. Here belief means those who believe the way Quran wants them to do.

Thus hence your defense of Islam is just sham. Islam indeed does not approve of any other faiths. If Islam admitted plurality and equality of faiths, then Saudi Arabia would have multiple faiths flourishing. That ain't the case. This rejection of the other faiths is not a new phenomenon: it is in place since the time of Muhammad. So, Islam from its earliest inceptions is opposed to plurality of faiths, and has used the coercive methods to subjugate humans. Any other interpretation by apologists would indeed be laughable.

Thus, Quran [003:085] indeed rejects any other faiths as equal to Islam. So, it follows that the Islamic doctrines are intolerant of other faiths.
Its my way or the highway.

To asoders22 and ZZim:
You might both be right and wrong in your discussion. You will find that societies that become fully cohesive also have a higher degree of spiritual ‘integration’ and a great deal less violence once the society becomes genuinely cohesive over many generations, as Sweden is . There were (and are) many areas in America in which a killing might occur once in a generation and a tavern fist-fight was resolved in the local church the following Sunday. That same spiritual cohesion can be found anywhere on earth when there are no population pressures that tear it apart with life style violence by people who don’t possess that cohesion. That might apply to Sweden’s Muslim immigrants and I wish you the best of luck attempting to create the spiritual cohesion found in most Swedish communities but not with the immigrants. Note that up to the point where the immigrants appeared, those communities didn’t have to impose their spiritual/cultural cohesion because it simply existed like breathing.
To suggest that ‘America’ in its entirety is violent because of a misguided spirituality is a standard atheistic/agnostic myth. It is much more accurate to suggest that tribal enclaves with extreme population densities never develop spiritual cohesion and are therefore violent. In looking at many of the posts here, especially those that make specific references to the Spiritual Scriptures, it might be worth asking the question: what was the population density and the availability of resources at the time the reference was written? Could you then define the spiritual basis of the writer? In a west Pakistan mountain community with little food, water, shelter or other physical means, what would be the level of positive, note positive, spiritual cohesion?

The Pakistan-India problem can be solved: deport all Indian Muslims to Kashmir and give Kashmir to Pakistan. As long as India holds on to Kashmir Muslims will consider India a valid target for Islamic jihad. When India is Muslim-free and no longer holds on to Kashmir, a majority Muslim state, Pakistan would have no more legitimate Islamic claim to fight India -- except for the fact that all non-Muslim states are subject to forced conversion to Islam when the Muslims have the power to do so. So, let us keep the Muslims weak, divided, and unable to take any initiatives. The only other answer is to nuke them all.

Sparki: you don't know the difference between Abraham and Daniel.

Abraham was a true believer in One God. When the king of his times ordered, he be thrown into the fire of his beliefs in one God. He stood before his God unshaken, nobody could bend him. His sons still remain steadfast on the his religion and he was not a Satan (as one of you think).

The non-beliver can be satan and the satan may come to fill the void that they have in their hearts.

Timmy2

I simply do not understand people who do not see the world heading for that eventuality. We are all one species.
Separate governments?
Why?
No one seems to be able to give a good reason for this.

Scroll down to my post essays involving a population of pink people with a single government. Guess how Farnaz's students in their different ways envisioned the new great society?
Pretty much the same. They drew, if I recall correctly, on their own thinking, a few philosophers, psychologists, Marx.

Do you understand? There are more things in Heaven and Earth, my dear Timmy2...

There are also less, as recent posts on this blog suggest.

Islam need not be the enemy. The problem is that Islam sees everyone else as the enemy.

Like the other intolerant, punitive Abrahamic religious, Islam has done more harm than good.

Maybe Abraham was the original Satan for what he has wrought in the name of his two different gods.

asoders22 :
ZZim wrote:

asoders22 :
America is strangely religious and strangely violent, and there might be a connection between the two.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
On the other hand, it could simply be your prejudice supplying answers where no evidence of causal connection exists.

------------
Or it could be experience. We have lesser godliness and lesser crime than the US.

And the louder the religious groups demand chastity and virtue, the more suspicious do I become - this is where you are likely to find hypocrites and secret adulterers and pedophiles.
============================================
Well I can't help you then. Perhaps you should travel more, you know, meet other people, get outside your constricted social circle and actually meet people. It's a good way to shed preconceptions and replace the images painted in your imagination by other people with the truth.

Too many people (like yourself) look at other cultures, take a few unrelated facts, apply their own unique worldview to them, and come up with the completely wrong idea (like you have).

For example, an uninformed, narrow-minded bigot might notice that the Swedes have less godliness and less fertility than Americans. He might then conclude that the Swedes' irreligious tendencies have caused a drop in virility. Or that the Swedish lack of virility caused them to abandon their religious heritage. Either conclusion would be silly. Like your conclusion is.

How many palestinians did israelis - jewish terrorists - kill?
How many palestinain kids did israelis - jewish terrorists - kill in their collateral damage?
How many palestinain refugees did israelis - jewish terrorists - create?
How many palestinian homes did israelis - jewish terrorists - demolish?
How many palestinian towns did israelis - jewish terrorists - wipe off the map?
How many palestinian acres of land did israelis - jewish terrorists - steal?

I appriciate wonderful reasoning by jamil51 amd Timmy2 in their recent comments on this forum.

thankyou for helping to understanding your religions.

Only twisted minds could think that religion is the cause of violence.

Ex 21:20-21
20 When a slave-owner strikes a male or female slave with a rod and the slave dies immediately, the owner shall be punished. 21But if the slave survives for a day or two, there is no punishment; for the slave is the owner’s property.

The positive of religion far outweighs the negative.

Num 31:14-18
14Moses became angry with the officers of the army, the commanders of thousands and the commanders of hundreds, who had come from service in the war. 15Moses said to them, ‘Have you allowed all the women to live? 17Now therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman who has known a man by sleeping with him. 18But all the young girls who have not known a man by sleeping with him, keep alive for yourselves.

Religion does far more good for society than bad.

Timothy 2:11-12
11Let a woman* learn in silence with full submission. 12I permit no woman* to teach or to have authority over a man;* she is to keep silent.

Only crazy people misinterpret the Bible.

Luke 14:26
Whoever comes to me and does not hate father and mother, wife and children, brothers and sisters, yes, and even life itself, cannot be my disciple.

Religion gives us moral guidance.

Deut 22:13-21
If, however, this charge is true, that evidence of the young woman’s virginity was not found, 21then they shall bring the young woman out to the entrance of her father’s house and the men of her town shall stone her to death, because she committed a disgraceful act in Israel by prostituting herself in her father’s house. So you shall purge the evil from your midst.

I mean, where would we get our morals from, if not religion.

Deut 25:11-12
If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.

Isaiah 40:8

The grass withers, the flower fades; but the word of our God will stand for ever.

Peace.

Religion is not the problem. It's just bad people bastardizing the true peaceful nature of religion.

Deut 20:10-18
10 When you draw near to a town to fight against it, offer it terms of peace. 11If it accepts your terms of peace and surrenders to you, then all the people in it shall serve you in forced labour. 12If it does not submit to you peacefully, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; 13and when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword. 14You may, however, take as your booty the women, the children, livestock, and everything else in the town, all its spoil. You may enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. 15Thus you shall treat all the towns that are very far from you, which are not towns of the nations here. 16But as for the towns of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. 17You shall annihilate them—the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites—just as the Lord your God has commanded, 18so that they may not teach you to do all the abhorrent things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against the Lord your God.

I mean a person would have to be completely insane to to think that violence in the name of God is permitted.

Lev 20:13
13If a man lies with a male as with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall be put to death; their blood is upon them.

Religion is not the problem

Deut 25:11-12
If men get into a fight with one another, and the wife of one intervenes to rescue her husband from the grip of his opponent by reaching out and seizing his genitals, 12you shall cut off her hand; show no pity.

It's just evil people misinterpreting religious texts.

Ex 35:2
2 For six days shall work be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy sabbath of solemn rest to the Lord; whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

Religion itself is about peace.

Isaiah 13:13-16
13Therefore I will make the heavens tremble, and the earth will be shaken out of its place, at the wrath of the Lord of hosts on the day of his fierce anger. 14 Like a hunted gazelle, or like sheep with no one to gather them all will turn to their own people, and all will flee to their own lands. 15 Whoever is found will be thrust through, and whoever is caught will fall by the sword. 16 Their infants will be dashed to pieces before their eyes: their houses will be plundered, and their wives ravished.

Religion guides us and comforts us.

Killing of innocent people cannot be justified whether it is by state apparatus or by an individual in the shape of a suiside bomber.
The notion that it is against the non-muslims is wrong, or that it is based on religion.
In Iraq and recently in pakistan the victims are themselves the muslims - in large numbers \ why it is so? so it is targeted against the non-muslims only. It is simply the matter of rights - give the right of freedom to the people.

The end to this violence is not the use of force or the out-right blame-game or insult and filthy words as I found even in this forum but to understand the reasons and to address the issues.

We cannot argue with those on this forum, who use insultive and filthy language, spreading hatred instead of understanding.

There is huge cries that terrorism comes from muslims who found it through the teaching of Quran.
It is very wrong comprehension. We never noted islam attached to terrorism.It is just few years back that islam is miligned with terrosism.
In 1400 years of rich history it is only now that you come to know the errors in the teaching of this great religion?.

The root causes of such terror acts which we confront today lies in injustice of years to the people of Islamic world.There is involvement of CIA in keeping the undemocratice rulers in power in the Islamic world, may it be Mubarak of Egypt or Amir or Kuwait.US do interfere in the internal affairs of other countries and conspire to keep puppet regimes, which is againt the inspirations of the people. It is injustice and sheer use of force for many years which deprived the people in these lands of their right to freedom.
Do you know Mussadiq? who was thrown by CIA to bring Shah of Iran in power. I am surprise for those who cry terrorism but fail to find the root cause to this manece, it seems to be delibrate.
It started in the 70's with the hijacking of planes by the desprate palestenians who failed to find justice at the hands of western super powers and the UN.
Then another form of protest was launched by arab countries with oil embargo,which resulted in the murder of saudi King Faisal because he initiated this protest.
Blowing one's self-up is not a easy thing, it arises out of greviences not by the teaching of Quran and Islam. This started because of occupation of Iraq and afghanistan. Again it is individual terror against state terror. Dont forget 4000 airstrikes a day over bagdad and the plight of small children who listen to this terror day and night. Dont forget the ruthless bombardment on marriage parties in afghanistan.
Try to know the mean of revenge befor you know the terrorism.
Do justice and there will be no more acts of terror.
It has nothing to do with the religion Islam.

9/11 was not done by any group but a conspiracy by the US policy makers who want find a pretext to occupy the world resources.Lot of websites go to anyone.

And then there is "Soft terror" too, read the website of Congressman RON Paul or the book "Confession of a economic hitman "
it is available on the web.

DebChatterjee :
Astoria :

"There is no compulsion in religion- and a coerced faith is not a faith nor acceptable."

Islam actually suggests 'coercion' of faith, and does not admit plurality/equality of religions. To that end one reads in Quran[003:085]:

YUSUFALI: "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good)."

Please know the meaning of Islam before you discuss and critisize Holy Quran.

Islam, as a matter of fact, is an attributive title. Whosoever possesses this attributive, may he belong to any race, community, country, or clan, is a Muslim. According to the Qur'an (the Holy Book of the Muslims), among every people and in all ages there have been good and righteous people who possessed this attribute of them were and are Muslims.
The powerful, all-pervasive law, which governs all that comprises the universe, from the tiniest specks of dust to the magnificent galaxies in high heavens, is the law of God, the creator and ruler of the universe. As the entire creation obeys the law of God, the whole universe, therefore, literally follows the religion of Islam-for Islam signifies nothing but obedience and submission to Allah, the Lord of the universe. The sun, the moon, the earth, and all other heavenly bodies are thus ‘Muslim’. So is the case with air, water, and heat, stones, trees, and animals. Everything in the universe is ‘Muslim’ for it obeys God by submission to his laws. Even a man who refuses to believe in God, or offers his worship to someone other than God has perforce to be a ‘Muslim’ as far as his bodily existence is concerned. For his entire life, from the embryonic stage to the body’s dissolution info dust after death, and every tissue of his muscles and every limb of his body follow the course prescribed for each by God’s law. His very tongue which, on account of his ignorance, advocates the denial of God or professes multiple deities, is in its very nature a ‘Muslim’. His head which he wantonly bows to other besides God is a born Muslim. His heart wherein, through his lack of true knowledge, he cherishes love and reverence for others, is ‘Muslim’ by intuition.
In contrast to the man described above, there is the man who, although a born Muslim, does not exercise his faculties of reason, intellect, and intuition for recognizing his Lord and creator and misuses his freedom of choice by choosing to deny Him. Such a man becomes an unbeliever.The man who denies God is called is a concealer because he conceals by his disbelief what is inherent in his nature and embalmed in his own soul-for, indeed, his nature is instinctively imbued with ‘Islam’.

Astoria wrote:

"There is no compulsion in religion- and a coerced faith is not a faith nor acceptable."

Islam actually suggests 'coercion' of faith, and does not admit plurality/equality of religions. To that end one reads in Quran[003:085]:

YUSUFALI: "If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good)."

And, finally my being a make Hindu Brahmin by birth has nothing to do with anything perhaps - just as being a Muslim doesn't automatically make him/her a terrorist. So, what is the relevance that you are making a point I am a Brahmin in this context ?

Victoria noted: "Today it is Muslims, yesterday it was Communists".

Yes and the global community was right about the Communists and they are right about the Muslims i.e. they are followers of a warmongering, illiterate, womanizing, hallucinating, long-dead Arab!!!!

Marc Edwards says:
“The Quran contradicts itself over and over (drinking is OK, later it isn't, polygamy is OK, later it's forbidden, etc.)”
Neither polygamy nor slavery has been abolished in Islam or even modified. The only thing that was modified or abrogated were the early Mecca somehow tolerant Quran verses. Later as Mohammad gained followers in Medina he replaced such verses as “No compulsion in religion” with ones that incites against all those who refused his message.
Marc in a remark to me also summarized the Omar Pact as “an additional” tax levied on non-Muslims. There was no mention of that exorbitant tax in the Omar Pact cited again below. That so-called pact was a systemic concerted effort designed to humiliate the indigenous populations of the occupied lands. The horrendous head tax was to further pressure those conquered Christian people who have a much more advanced culture and civilization to convert to the religion of the marauding and pillaging Bedouin hordes from the Arabian desert.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

Interesting, astoria. He sounds so anti Indian although he calls Indians cowards. seems he doesn't like anyone. why do you think he has so much self hatred?

Athena- there are by no stretch of the imaginations hundreds of passage in the Qur'an that instruct killing of towns- or people.

People always look for simple and easy answers to these complex problems-

Atheists will say that all injustice comes from religion, but hve no answer for communism's inability to eradicate injustice and violence from it's history.

Believers point out exaggerated examples of the ideals of their own religions- while magnifying the anecdotal incidences or points in history where violence occurs and point to the faith of it's actors.

It is easier than admitting that humankind has violence in its hearts and actions, and we individuals have it also.

(In America)Today it is Muslims, yesterday it was Communists, tomorrow it may be the Chinese-

It seems history has been repeating itself forever- and each new generation picks up the swords of their elders and marches on to fight again.

Islam is ideally, the religion of moderation- moderation and the middle way are at it's core- and even moderation in religious expression.

Extremism is as anti-Islam as is possible. It is anathema to the message- moderation-

that is why Muslims take such offense when people talk about finding "moderate Muslims"
ALL Muslims- by their adherence to Islam- are by the nature of the religion- already moderate-

Now you will find THAT exhortation repeated hundreds of times, in Qur'an, in Sunnah(actions and sayng of the Prophet(pbuh).

People are very fearful by nature- and love is not always strong or bold enough to counter that fear.

Come on Deb-
"First, Islam is....
as it has the element of Shariah which is one of the five pillars of Islam."

Islam has 5 pillars- and Shari'a isn't one of them.

"Shariah laws, derived from Quran claim to covert this planet to Islam - that is convert all to Muslims by active persuaion or if possible by force."

No,Shari'a is at best, a series of laws which are flexible and living- and can be interpreted or re-intepreted through time-
They are laws of social justice-

There is no compulsion in religion- and a coerced faith is not a faith nor acceptable.

sparrow- Deb is a proud Brahmin Hindu man- just for the record- he will affirm that.

Interesting though Deb- in your many apologist comments on the Gita- that NOW you recognize what I asserted a year ago- that there is, indeed, fighting (and brother against brother) advocated in it.

Religion is not the enemy. Fanaticism and intolerance of other opinions are the enemies.

"The Koran says do NOT Kill....but contradicts itself with hundreds of verses on instructions for killing entire towns that will not accept Allah..."

Ever read parts of the Old Testament? There's some doozies in there about the Israelites killing entire towns that refused to worship Yahweh. Remember those Amelekites, Midianites, and other -ites that Yahweh ordered the Israelites to wipe out? They didn't stop at their Canaanite neighbors, either. The nations of Judah and Israel did a pretty good number on each other, damning each other for not following the "true path".

And lest we think Christianity is all "kum-bay-yah" and brotherhood amongst men, you have numerous denominations killing each other over whether there was a Trinity or not, whether the were Catholic, Protestant, Huegenots, Anabaptists, Mormons, Puritans, etc. As well as the Inquisition, witch craze, pogroms against their Jewish neighbors, etc.

And, by the way timmy2- my argument was not a defense of religion or nationalism. It was an expansion of what things would have to be dealt with before a one government world could exist. But you couldn't even figure that out. No- I'm not outmatched, you're just incapable.

timmy- considering anything i said was either ignored or blown off by you I hardly think debating you serves any prupose. My point was to disagree that somply getting rid of nationalism and religion would miraculously usher in some brave new world of your imagining. You seem to not want ot deal with that. You didn't debate it. You didn't present a case for it- you simply, and rather insultingly blew it off. So why be upset at a taste of your own medicine. You're idea is simplistic beyond belief and completely ignores many other factors of which religion and nationalism are only 2. which has nothing to do with whether or not I want a better world- I most assuredly do- but it won't happen based on your concept.

If you can produce another intelligent species from somewhere, you can have an automatic outgroup, a true unifier of humanity. I think the first episode ever of The Outer Limits explored this idea.

Gene Roddenbery is widely hailed as a brilliant futurist philosopher. It seemed quite logical to him, as it seems to me, that 400 years in the future, we would of course have a one world government, and even a United Federation of Planets.

I simply do not understand people who do not see the world heading for that eventuality. We are all one species.
Separate governments?
Why?
No one seems to be able to give a good reason for this.

I guess Gene Roddenberrey and me, and many other science fiction and futurist writers with the same vision of the future of humanity are all complete wackos.

The open question about the nature of humanity is whether tribal identity, a fundamental human emotion, requires an outgroup, someone to demonize. I fear that it does.

On a more superficial level, I believe we are more in a period of dissolution of larger governments rather than a consolidation of political entities, the breakup of the Soviet Union and Yugoslavia being prime examples and the multiple ethnic independent factions, armed and not across the globe being other examples, even down to the nascent independence movement in Scotland.

A world government will not happen anytime soon.

Timmy2:

Once upon a time on this very site, a blogger named Farnaz posted on an essay she'd assigned to an honors freshman English class. They were to imagine a new world order beginning tomorrow. All humans would be pink and we have a democratic world government in place.

I thought I'd pasted her post on word, but i can't find it. I do recall most of what she reported, however.

Now, bearing in mind that these were very bright kids, what kinds of visions do you think danced in their youthful heads?

Sparrow,

I knew that I would reduce your argument to nothing but ad hominem attacks. Your last post was the equivalent of "shut up you big stupid dummy head!"

I understand your frustration. You are realizing that your defense of religion is defense of the most toxic ideology man has ever known, and the prime blockade in our path to peace.

You can not make an intelligent argument as to why a world government would not work. Somehow you think we went from family tribes, to groups of family tribes, to villages to city states, to countries, to organizations like the UN, but now the circle of cooperation can not expand any further? Countries are as large a group of cooperating peoples that we can have, or should have??? This expansion of the cooperation circle that has been going on for thousands of years can not go that one step further to a borderless world? Why not? You can not answer this. You have no answer.

You can not name anything good for society that requires belief in a supernatural entity. Love cooperation, love thy neighbor, compassion for your fellow human being, turn the other cheek, a feeling of community, coping with death, none of these things require belief in God. Religion is a hijacker of these common human morals and emotions not a provider of them.

I'd give up debating me if I were you also. You are outmatched.

Now please respond with another post of nothing but ad hominem attack in lieu of actual counterpoints so we can prove me right.

God should be left out of all equations because he's no more real than Zeus and Aphrodite were once thought to be; or any of the hundreds of other gods.

Irrational belief in supernatural gods and fairies should be ridiculed -not encouraged or forced onto people through childhood indoctrination.

Peace on earth may only be possible when we realize that we are all alone down here...and there is nobody up there looking out for us.
And killing the other guy because he believes a different fairy tale is the height of brutal stupidity.

beautiful- yes. thank you Soja. From me as well.

timmy2- truly you do not understand anything anyone has written. You're stuck on your ideas and you are merely defending them so as not to be wrong or need to rethink. Can't help you out pal. You're not worth any further effort because you willfully don't think. Hey at least I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt- that you can think and just choose not to.

Soja posted this on the main thread. I found it very moving:

s_j_thaikattil:

I wish to offer my heartfelt condolences to all the family and friends of the Indian and non-Indian victims of Mumbai 26/11. May they all find the consolation, strength and support they need to come to terms with their loss and continue with their lives. May all those who are wounded and/or have been traumatized by the incident recover completely.

My special love and condolences to two year old Moshe Holtzberg, orphaned overnight in the terrorist attack but saved miraculously by the protective hand of God that came in the form of his Indian nanny, whose heart piercing cries for his mother are haunting. Jews have lived quiet lives in India for over twenty two CENTURIES (including in my native state of Kerala), without being discriminated against or persecuted by Indians of any religion, caste or creed. The small community of Jews in Mumbai lived among Indian Muslims and had a specially good relationship with them. The fact that a Jewish house in India, which offered accommodation and Kosher food to passing Jews visiting India, was specifically targeted, has left Indians of all religious persuasions shocked beyond belief.

There are many tales of sorrow and courage associated with the Mumbai 26/11 terrorist attack.

May God use this incident of mindless violence bring people of all nations of good will together to protect the innocent and to advance God's righteousness, His mercy and His peace in all places where hate filled ideologies make people blind to their higher purpose and universal calling. I extend my special gratefulness and thanks to the US, UK and Israeli, and my own now home country Australia, governments who have been prompt in their offer of active help and support to India and Indians in their time of confusion and grief. My grateful thanks also to all governments and peoples of various nations who have offered their moral support to India and Indians.

It is a stark reminder that we live in an interdependent world and we all need each other.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Well- since you hate Islam, you think Indians are cowards, Jews wouldn't have the likes of you, you must be a Christian cultist of some rabid type.

Why don't you have a username that reflects who- or what- you really are? Too cowardly, I presume.

Sparrow,

"ah timmy2 - You seem to have drunk the kool-aid there"

No sir

"I most certainly do believe in equality but dictators are not nationalists"

Not necessarily but they require nations to take over, and nations that are already under siege. Such a thing does not exist in a nationless world.

You wrote:
"As you can see, dictatorships can exist without nationalism"

Uh, no I can not see. You have not demonstrated this in the slightest.

You said:
"Removing nationalism will not remove the fight over resources (gee- do I really have to spell this out for you?)"

I guess you do because all you have done here is make a statement without backing it up.
Is there fighting within the united states right now over their own resources? Please show me an example of a modern democracy having violent fighting within it's borders over it's own resources. So if the world had one government, why would they fight over resources? You make no sense at all. Kool aid?

You said: "and a one-government? Sounds like you are in a la la land utopian fantasy"

Not yet. But It will be utopia when there are no more borders, ethnic groups, religions, etc. It is inevitable. Cultures from around the world take the best from each others culture, and throw out the garbage from each culture, and we are all one fusion culture that has nothing to fight about. There are enough resources for everyone. We just can't share it all now because we are broken up into false groups like countries, and religions, and ethnicities.

You said: "People will clash over "stuff," over cultural differences, politics, perceived insults- whatever excuse they can find"

I just covered all that.
Stuff? what Stuff? Be specific.
Cultural differences? They will go away as they were only created by our separation which should end, and is in the process of ending via immigration and mixed marriages.

You said:
"The only way a one government world will exist is if the government is a repressive dictatorship

What is your evidence for this?
The United States is a huge geographical area with many different cultures dispersed throughout this enormous country all living together and sharing in each others culture and sharing resources. Does the united states require a dictator to hold all of these people together? No of course not.

So why could a one world government not work?
religion is the only blockade.

You haven't answered my question.
What is different about people, that one group would requires a different kind of government than another. I think people are all the same and there is one style of government that is right for all people, but you seem to be under the impression that some people are different from other people and require a different kind of government. Why? What are these different groups of people that you see that are not false groups? I am perplexed.

You will have trouble finding an answer to this that is not religion.

Deepak Chopra, a neuroscientist, is a typical pacifist who believes in quixotic visions about Islam - much like the westerners - whose interest in Islam is tied to attraction for belly dancing.

First, Islam is not a religion - it is a theocracy
as it has the element of Shariah which is one of the five pillars of Islam. Shariah laws, derived from Quran claim to covert this planet to Islam - that is convert all to Muslims by active persuaion or if possible by force.

Early history of Islam, after its success in the Battle of Badr, shows that propagation of Islam happened because of warfare.

So, when Deepka Chopra writes,
"As long as the Muslim world feels attacked and judged against, it has no incentive to change, and although the desire may be there, violence shouts it down." he is indeed playing the harp of a pan-Islamist apologist. Deepak ignores some teachings of history. Islam has forced societies to change by crudely attacking the philosophical foundations of such cultures/philosophies and/or waging physical warfare against them. (Historical sources can be cited to verify this observation. And Islam is NOT a religion of peace. No this is not because of the Mumbai teror, but, because the Quran says so in [004:095].)

However Deepak indirectly casts the innuendo that other cultures should not attack Islam, though Islam can attack them, because that will force Muslims to withdraw in a shell and not engage in "changing Islam" formally. Oh, well !

This is actually an advocation of cowardice. Cowardice to stand up against the Jihadists and tell them either they shape or else they will be shipped out.

Deepak forgets the lesson of Sree Gita: it states that one must (physically) fight enemies even if they are related by blood.

(Jisko rago main kayaron ka khoon baheta hai(n), usko sirf Pakistan nahi(n), sarey duniya thukeygi.)

Tailpiece: this article by Deepak Chopra shows that Indians are generally inclined towards cowardice.

"And so screw the poor people in our own country for now, no handouts for them until we make sure that we've kicked the rest of the world's ass economically. This is essential to ensure that democracy wins out over it's rivals, communism and theocracy.

Once nationalism is removed, and we move to a one world government, inequality will be taken care of."

.....MWAH Ha ha ha ha ha...gasp...gasp....ha ha ha ha ha..........

Actually the Israelis didn't do it quite that way. there was a huge war, many did flee, and many more only because the Arab nations promised they would destroy Israel and they could come back. The Arab nations also refused to let the Palestinians leave the camps because they kept promising any day now you'll go home. They rejected Palestinian immigrants.

So how is it you don't think you should give land back to the American Indian but point a finger at Israel? I won't say I know all the reasons for refusing the right of return to Palestinians but part of it I do know is fear that the Palestinians will allow Hamas, fatah and Hezbollah to destroy Israel from within.

Your tax money supports far more things than Israel- the war in Iraq is a far poorer investment for much more money. the US invested in Israel because it is a friend, a democracy and a source of regional intelligence. It is far more trustworthy an ally than Saudi Arabia or Pakistan, another country your tax money has been heavily invested in. Bailout? Money for Halliburton? Believe me, if you want to be upset about how your tax money is spent there are far worse expenditures our government has made than giving some to Israel.

Ed

You said:
"However, ending nation states won't end tribal identity. Wars and conflicts would continue"

Over what?

You said:
"There is no mechanistic end, only a spiritual one. We must appeal to our better selves and insist that others do as well and exhibit compassion and brotherhood with as wide a circle as possible"

Hear hear.
How wide can that circle be when we are falsely separated into religions and nations. All humans are equal yes? Why should we need different governments? Can you answer this?

The short reason why we see terrorism today is that terrorists draw their inspiration from Islam. That's not a religion. It's garbage and its world view is also garbage. I think that Mohammed fellow did a great disservice to mankind. The root cause of all this nonsense, the violence and the mayhem is the Koran which terrorists and other criminals draw inspiration from. What a spiritual text. I don't care if Muslims say the Koran is misinterpreted. The very fact that the Koran is misinterpreted means the text is extremely poorly written (that's the most generous interpretation we can give it). The worst interpretation is that its a garbage philosophy meant for narrow-minded and fanatic people. Not for the cultured, the secular, the liberal and the tolerant.

Mac

You said:
"Timmy, Hutus didn't kill the Tutsis over 'nationalism and religion"

I didn't say that they did.
I said it was tribalism, and it was.
Us vs Them
The truth is, there is no "Us vs Them"
Us vs Them is something that came from a time when we were much closer to animals than modern man. It has been expanding ever since as man learned that cooperation was better than not cooperation, from one family, to one group of families, to city states, to countries, to the european union, and this trend should continue until we come to the obvious realization that one world all working together is the best thing.

You wrote:
"Nobody likes being on the bottom of the pecking order, and they don't need nationalism or religion to give them the excuse to take other people's stuff"

No, they just need inequality.
And inequality comes from a world of competing countries. Inequality within the united states for example, is a result of America needing to win the financial war of succession on the world stage, because economics is power. And so screw the poor people in our own country for now, no handouts for them until we make sure that we've kicked the rest of the world's ass economically. This is essential to ensure that democracy wins out over it's rivals, communism and theocracy.

Once nationalism is removed, and we move to a one world government, inequality will be taken care of. Not to say that there still aren't a lot of advances that need to be made on the financial structure of today's democracies, but these are things that we can all reason out together without the false differences that religion and nationalism create between us.

Sorry Abhab, but charging Jews and Christiand higher taxes, while not nice, is certainly a lot better than taking the property of non-Christians and beating/torturing/deporting/killing them.

Yo Sparrow
I know a little of the history of Israel. Way I read it was the Israelis moved the Palestinians out at gunpoint. Many Palestinians fled in fear for their lives. More to the point, if the Isrealis wanted them to stay, why no right of return?
Mind you, my only dog in that fight is my tax money going to support Israel, which has one of the most powerful militarys on the earth. Whatever injustice was done to the Palestinians it doesn't nearly match what the US Government did to native Americans, and I don't feel guilty enough about that to give the land back.
I wish I knew the name of the book (might be 'my enemy my self') written by an Israeli who disguised himself as a Palestinian and lived as a Palestinian for a number of months. I highly recommend it for understanding the other side of the issue. Feel free to make any reading recommendations :-)

ah timmy2 - You seem to have drunk the kool-aid there. I most certainly do believe in equality but dictators are not nationalists. they are power hungry control freaks who control people, land and resources. definition of a dictator:"a person exercising absolute power, esp. a ruler who has absolute, unrestricted control in a government without hereditary succession."

Nationalism:
1.national spirit or aspirations.
2. devotion and loyalty to one's own nation; patriotism.
3. excessive patriotism; chauvinism.
4. the desire for national advancement or independence.
5. the policy or doctrine of asserting the interests of one's own nation, viewed as separate from the interests of other nations or the common interests of all nations.
6. an idiom or trait peculiar to a nation.
7. a movement, as in the arts, based upon the folk idioms, history, aspirations, etc., of a nation.

As you can see, dictatorships can exist without nationalism. But they do find it a useful tool. I would say it seems you are the one with a very simplistic understanding of the world. And I use the term "understanding" loosely in your case.

Removing nationalism will not remove the fight over resources (gee- do I really have to spell this out for you?) and a one-government? Sounds like you are in a la la land utopian fantasy. People will clash over "stuff," over cultural differences, politics, perceived insults- whatever excuse they can find. The only way a one government world will exist is if the government is a repressive dictatorship- I believe that was already tried in Nazi Germany.

Marc Edward aka Mustafa pontificates:
“Under Islam other monotheistic religions (Christianity and Judaism) are free to keep their religion - compare that to how Christian Europe treated other religions for centuries.”
The religion you are defending is a separatist , supremacist and segregationist cult that should have no place in any civilized society.
As to the tolerance of Islam toward Christians and Jews I refer you to the Dhimmi Laws enshrined in the so-called Omar Pact cited below that institutionalized the humiliation and mistreatment of non-Muslims living under Muslim control.
http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/pact-umar.html

Sparrow

You said:
"dictators are about power and amassing resources (read that as :wealth)"

In a world without nationalism, dictators would exist only in the history books. The worlds democracies and free nations are large enough now that if they chose to form a coalition against nationalism and started removing borders around the world, the coalition of democracies would be too large for any would-be dictator to arise.

Also, the rise of dictators has always been facilitated by a religious populous prone to worshiping another celestial dictator.

As I have said, without religion and nationalism, dictators are not a factor. So you must now please finally stop talking about dictators when I say that, take away nationalism,and what do we have left to fight about? Agreed?

"What one government world? You think removing religion and nationalism will result in a one government world? I don't think so"

Um. Do you even know what nationalism is?
Remove all nationalism and by definition the world is a one government world. A government of the people, by the people.
If you think that the world is not eventually headed for a one government world and that it should I'm really not sure where you are coming from. Do you not believe that all humans are equal? If so, why should we need different governments? Can you tell me what are the differences in humans that require some of us to have a different kind of government than others?

"power and land" Moot without nationalism and religion.

"power and territory" Moot without nationalism and religion.

"power and land" Moot without nationalism and religion.

You said:

"The Israelis-Palestinian conflict is all about land. Not religion"

Too funny to comment.

marcedward- the history of the establishment of hte state of Israel is a lot more complicated than that and you know it. It goes way back to the 19th century, and there have always been Jews there, and when they established the State of Israel they begged the Palestinians to stay and be part of it but the other Arab countries told them to leave and they would destroy Israel. Didn't happen. So did the Arab states do anything to alleviate the Palestinian suffering- Hell no! As for forcing Israelis into the army- they are drafted (just like what we used to do), and the majority of them are proud to serve.

Besides which, after 60 years the Palestinians have done nothing to imporve their own lot, and in fact worsened it by starting the intifada. Israel clamped down- Palestinians lost jobs, access to food and medical care, money- why? because they got angry that Netanyahu went to one of their holy places. And they keep promoting violence, instead of caring about the future of their children. sure- tell them to die for the cause. How stupid. In 60 years the Palestinians have not done a single positive thing to improve their own lives- no they would rather live and die in squalor for the "cause." Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. I find nothing admirable in that.

Timmy asks ABKS:
“Are you suggesting that these people are only being charitable because they believe that God commands it?”
I know that for a fact or how else would you rationalize people blowing themselves up in the midst of strangers if it not for the command of Allah and His promises?

Tribalism is the root. Only in closely held tribes of early hominids could altruism have selective advantage but also war making and genocide. In group and out group behaviors, the dual nature of humanity. Luckily those tribal emotions are easily transferable from tribes to nation states to sports teams. However, ending nation states won't end tribal identity. Wars and conflicts would continue.

There is no mechanistic end, only a spiritual one. We must appeal to our better selves and insist that others do as well and exhibit compassion and brotherhood with as wide a circle as possible. It is really difficult in these times for me to extend that compassion to the Ummah until it is reciprocated and until they loudly speak out against the bad actors in their community, it will remain difficult.

Timmy,
Hutus didn't kill the Tutsis over 'nationalism and religion'.
They are different ethnic groups. The French had set up the minority Tutsis over the majority Hutus. Not enjoying their status the Hutus decided to take the Tutsis out. It was a 'race' war over who'd have all the good stuff.
You really ought to read "The Lucifer Principle", which goes deeply into evolutionary sources for 'evil'. Nobody likes being on the bottom of the pecking order, and they don't need nationalism or religion to give them the excuse to take other people's stuff.

Yo Sparrow -
Exactly why should the Palestinians accept losing their lands and homes? Isn't the real problem that the Palestinians are willing to die for that land? There was little need for the Jews of Jeruselem to 'defend' themselves from the Muslim and Christian Palestinians until the zionists started moving there in mass. The lack of justice in establishing Israel will never be forgotten by the Palestinians from everything I read, and frankly I think they want to live there than most Jews do. How long will Isreal hold out when Israel has to force people to fight in the military while the Palestinians want their kids to die for the cause?

timmy2- I was specific about what "resources" meant. Perhaps you didn't read my post.

dictators are about power and amassing resources (read that as :wealth).

What one government world? You think removing religion and nationalism will result in a one government world? I don't think so.

resources- all the things I listed, plus power.

edbryonadams:
in answer:
power and land
power and territory
power and land

all clothed in the most self-righteous excuses (except Crips and Bloods who are brutally honest about why they fight).

The Israelis-Palestinian conflict is all about land. Not religion.

Ed

You ask?

Why did the Hutu kill the Tutsi?

Why do the Crips kill the Bloods?

What fuels regional separatist fighters across the globe?

Tribalism.
Which is a product of both nationalism and religion.

Remember, nationalism and religion have only been separate for the last hundred years or so, and still are not separate in many parts of the world. But for thousands and thousands of years of human civilization they have been one in the same.

You think the Crips and the Bloods didn't learn about tribalism from the christian church and a whole history of human tribalism that has dominated human society since it's beginning?

It is all about perceived differences that are not real. These perceived difference that are not real all come from tribalism, nationalism and religion. It is all part of the same thing, and it is the source of it all.

First we stop believing in false gods.
This opens the door for the elimination of nationalism.
Perceived differenced fade away.
And when we all stop trying to tell each other that our people are right, about things we can not possible know, then we can all begin to come together to seek out answers to our problems together, with all of us admitting that no one knows if there is or is not a god, and certainly that no one knows who God is and what God wants from us.

Then reason alone, which we all possess, will be our path to an enlightened society.

Love, togetherness, cooperation, compassion, all of these things are hindered by a world full of superstitious religions claiming to know the absolute truth behind these mysterious phenomenon.

afifichestclinic- so you're saying its ok to claim all Israelis kill Palestiians? But not condemn all Muslims as terrorists. Oh, ok- I see that...yeah...sure.

Well, like I said, I don't see Arab countries doing anything for the Palestinians except giving them money for guns, bullets, and bombs, patting them on the head and telling them to go kill Israeli women, children, and tourists. Israel's policy is to defend itself. Not to kill Palestinians. But arab countries love putting the Palestinians on the front line for martyrdom so that they can claim their self-defined moral high ground. Must be nice to have your political pawns already set up for you.

Golda Meir put it very well- there would be no peace until the Arabs love their children more than they hate Israel.

Fundamentalism is strict adherence to religious principle.They should be encouraged to change. But it will not eradicate terrorism. All terrorist are not fundamentalist or illiterates

First we have to define terrorism

Is state terrorism different from non-state terrorism?

Is military bombing innocent civilians without U N approval justified ?

Is the reason for terrorism more political than religious ?

3000 muslims were brutually murdered by Gujarat chief minister Narendra Modi. 1.2 million Iraqis were killed in Iraq and now Bush regret it. Can you justify these killings ? Why Modi is not punished for state sponsored massacres ?

Why so much importance is given when Jews or Americans were killed than when christians or muslims are killed in India ?

Is life of a Jew or American more important than christian Nuns raped and murdered in Orissa recently ?

Since terrorism has grown into highly devastating
proportion its very important to address all these issues

Hey Pat,

"Until this supposedly "silent majority" of peaceful moderate Muslims stand up and speak up against terrorism and condemn the extremists and fundamentalists, I'm afraid the rest of the world, rightly OR wrongly, is going to blame Islam"

Well said.

Anyone who thinks that the islamic community could not eliminate terrorism from it's midst if it truly desired is naive.
1.5 billion people can't get a handle on 1500 radicals? As if.

They are clearly not all that horrified by what is going on in the name of their religion.

I agree with this post. West must not punish all Muslims because of some terrorists who drew their ideology on wrong interpretation to some verses of Quran and because of the policy of Israel in Palestine and the absolute help of USA to Israel to kill the Palestinians without any consideration to them as a population to have a right in living on their land.

Why did the Hutu kill the Tutsi?

Why do the Crips kill the Bloods?

What fuels regional separatist fighters across the globe?

Mac and Sparrow

You both keep talking about all of these other things that we fight about but can you get specific?

nationalism
Religion

These two things are bad and should go bye bye.

Then what?

You talk about dictators. They don't exist without nationalism and religion.

Resources?

Not a concern in a one government world.

Take away nationalism and religion and...... what else guys?

Got anything?

Islam is not the enemy but shame on Muslims for having let their faith be defined and vilified by the extremist elements in it. Why aren't they standing up and speaking against the horrors perpetrated by nuts like Al Qaeda, Taliban, Lashkar-e-Toiba and Jaish?

I don't even know who the supposedly "mainstream" Muslim leaders are in this world. One of my closest buddies is a Muslim, but still when I hear the word Islam, the first thing that comes to mind is terrorism, followed closely by the AK-47 and Rocket Propelled Grenades.

The same doesn't come to mind when think of the other main religions.

A religion is not just a book or a set of scrolls. It is defined by the collective thoughts and ideas of the people following it, practicing it and talking about it.

Unfortunately for Islam, the only ones doing the talking it seems are Bin Laden, Zawahiri, Omar and Saeed.

Until this supposedly "silent majority" of peaceful moderate Muslims stand up and speak up against terrorism and condemn the extremists and fundamentalists, I'm afraid the rest of the world, rightly OR wrongly, is going to blame Islam.

marcedward1, I said that most civilian terrorists are currently Muslims, not that all Muslims are terrorists. However, even the non terrorist Muslims seem to get more exercised over some Dutch drawings or a modern novel than they do about murderers that act in the name of their religion. In that way they support the bad actors and give their religion a the bad name it currently earns.

edbyronadams :
marcedward1 writes: "People believe they rule their wills and their intelligence, but in most cases it's the ideas (or memes) that rule the people"

'The present meme with a firm grip on mass terror attack on civilians falls directly in the camp of Mohammad.'

If you were right, there'd be terrorist attacks around the world on a daily basis. You seem unable to see a difference between Al Qaeda, a terrorist group that seems to be dedicated Wahhibists, and the rest of Islam. If the problem were merely Islam, we'd not have had all the Christian attacks here in the USA (see OK City Bombing). If you look at the last century we've had terrorism used by Palestinians, Zionists, Nazis, Communists, Maoists, Catholics, Protestants, environmentalists - need I go on?

Oh, Timmy
Nobody believes you've read the Quran because you lack the respect for religion that one would need to take the trouble (and personally I think the Quran is boring to the point of being unreadable). You come across as a person who has an opinion and does as little work as possible understanding the other side. Claiming that without religion and nationalism we'd have no terrorism is not only simplistic, but demonstrably untrue - see Earth Liberation Front?
Better luck next time.

timmy2- I can't argue with that but there is a lot more to why we go to war. Religion is only a small part of it (and perhaps is only an excuse). We really go to war over resources- land, minerals, oil, food, money, even labor. at the heart, this is what most wars are fought over. WW I ended at 11am on November 11th, 1918. WW II essentially began with the signing of the Treaty of Versailles which set the stage for a very fruitful breeding ground of anger and nationalism that Hitler played on perfectly. The treaty pretty much destroyed the German economy, and fostered huge resentment. Huge pieces of Germany were taken from it and one of Hitler's stated goals was to restore them to Germany.

Getting rid of religion and/or nationalism is meaningless as long as we compete for instead of cooperate on resources.

The basis of aggression is tribal identity and to get rid of it you must remake the species. While I realize that to make an omelet, you have to break eggs, the mass murders of Stalin never did get him the new Soviet man.

marcedward1 writes: "People believe they rule their wills and their intelligence, but in most cases it's the ideas (or memes) that rule the people"

The present meme with a firm grip on mass terror attack on civilians falls directly in the camp of Mohammad.

mac

You said:
"You ever read any accounts of the sack of Jeruselem? Didn't think so"

Of course. It was a bloody massacre just like the islamic conquests. All religion bad.

You said: "Nobody believes you've read the Quran"

Just you actually. And I think you are projecting. I sounds very much to me as though it is you who have not read the Koran.

You said:

Isn't any belief system that causes the user to subvert rationality to belief just as dangerous as any religion? Communism comes to mind - how many millions were pointlessly murdered in the name of preserving communism? How many died because Mao was afraid of being remembered badly?

Yes yes and yes.

Nationalism and psychopathic dictators who resemble God on earth are also bad things. If we could do away with religion and nationalism, then psychopathic dictators would have no countries to take over, and no populous, prone to worshiping God like figures, to manipulate.

Get it?

Timmy writes
'Take away religion and nationalism and what do we have left to fight about? I ask you.'

Everything. Religion has certainly been an excuse for war, but any number of belief systems have led to war that weren't official religions. Hitler's idiotic beliefs about race led to millions being murdered needlessly (and helped him lose his war). You seem to have fallen into the trap of seeing religion as the root of too many evils, when it's just the leadership getting greedy. America has done much evil over the last 8 years, and I see it as a fault in leadership, not religions.

It took three centuries, until the Emperor Constantine, for Christianity to become intolerant and persecutory. It took Islam one minute after Muhammed had his hallucinations to become intolerant.

Sparrow,

Wars are over differences.
Religion give us differences that are not true and real.

Either one of the religions is right and the rest are wrong, or they are all wrong. Which one do you think is more likely?

And if they are all wrong, how can you not see how this could lead to anything but perpetual war over perceived differences that do not really exist?

Take away religion and nationalism and what do we have left to fight about? I ask you.

We lost family to the nazis so as Jew I also studied. I don't want a back and forth back and forth where we are both saying the same thing over and over but I think it is a given that condemning Islam out of hand doesn't deal with the full truth of violence and genocide. You;re implying that something in Islam and the Koran make it inherently violent and xenophobic. But there are passages in the bible that rival the koran for advocating the murder of others, and a hard look at the history of Christianity and the West will show a no less violent and bloody timeline. (I guess this should also be addressed to timmy2).

You are right about looking at the skeletons rattling in our closets but I don't see how we can expect Muslims to do that when we seem not very inclined to do so ourselves.

Isn't any belief system that causes the user to subvert rationality to belief just as dangerous as any religion? Communism comes to mind - how many millions were pointlessly murdered in the name of preserving communism? How many died because Mao was afriad of being remembered badly? All those deaths occured without the help of ancient religions. People believe they rule their wills and their intelligence, but in most cases it's the ideas (or memes) that rule the people.

Nevermore53 writes
'Marcedward1, you said:

"Certainly there was caravan raiding before that took place. So what? How was that out of character for people in that region at that time? "

Just because something is 'in character' at certain times in certain regions doesn't make it right.'

Cultural norms about what is acceptable and unacceptable is exactly how right and wrong are determined in different cultures. For example, I consider mutilating the genitals of male newborns to be barbaric, but in American culture it is common.
You make a good point about the violence related to the drug trade, exceptour culture does condemn such violence and puts people like that in prison.

As for the taking of Mecca, it was peaceful. There was no battle was there? There was no wholesale slaughter, no wholsale raping or pilliging. You really want to compare that to the record of Christianity?

Sparrow,

I am by no means condemning anyone or to say that the West has moral or other superiority to anyone. You know that saying that each and everyone has skeletons in their closet. How we deal with them is a different issue. If you own up to your skeletons they are less likely to haunt you, if you deny them they might come and bite you in the butt. That goes not only for individuals, that goes for countries as well.

All I tried to do was to set the record straight with a historical publication.

As far as your statement about my reading up on the Hitler years, I don't need to. I grew up in post-war Germany and studied the Nazi era in detail. In addition to book knowledge I also have first-hand accounts of what it was like. From bodes sides of the aisle.

I don't want to get into the debate going on between a lot of you, but I would like to address some of the things Timmy2 has been saying. I'm assuming from his comments that he is an atheist (as am I), and he appears to be one from the "Hitchens" vain of atheism, or those who like to make the argument that religion is the cause of all the problems in the world. I disagree very much with this line of reasoning, because I think it gives too much credence to the idea of religions as something separate from humanity. I don't think it's even relevant whether or not you believe there is a god. Organized religion, religious doctrine and religious texts were created BY people...collectively. That means every verse in a holy text that condones killing was put there by a human. The idea that we're all just innocent "victims" of religions and that if it weren't there we'd be perfect just seems like a tacit denial of the fact that WE created this monster ourselves, and it is already a reflection of ourselves. Sure, some read the Koran and interpret a certain verse as a justification for killing, but I think it's silly to argue that that verse MAKES them want to kill. And by the same token, most other people have the common sense to know that killing is wrong, no matter what. But you know what? I'll bet those "moderate" people are going into the reading differently to begin with. If one goes into religion looking for a justification to kill, they will probably find it. If one goes into it with more rational, peaceful preconceptions, they'll pick and choose the things that fit with that. It's sort of a chicken or the egg type thing.

Oh, and one more thing, Marcedward1, you said:

"Certainly there was caravan raiding before that took place. So what? How was that out of character for people in that region at that time? "

Just because something is 'in character' at certain times in certain regions doesn't make it right.

I wouldn't want history to judge us that way. It's like future generations saying: Certainly there were numerous muders related to drug trafficking in the Americas. So what? It was 'in character' for Colombian and Mexican drug lords to viciously maim and murder those opposed to them and hindering them in their 'trade'.

nevermore- do you think the Spanish or the British or the French carved out their empires by giving out coupons? Was the colonization of Africa a simple matter of handing out flyers? The west and christianity have no leg to stand on, and if you want to know who was more capable of the most heinous crimes, read up about concentration camps. the destruction of human beings under the Nazis makes anything Mohammad could of done look like child's play. what makes it the worst? It was passionless, coldblooded and totally without regard for life. This wasn't a battle for conquest (after all, it was Jewish, gay, Catholic, Romani and disabled citizens). The Nazis did not want to conquer or convert- they wanted to eradicate. It took a White, Western/Christian country to create this monstrosity. (Shall I also mention the conquest of the Americas?) I repeat- the West and Christianity have little moral superiority here.

Marcedward1"

I am an agnostic who dislikes prejudice, bigotry and racism, as well.

However, I do take issue with your statement that "Muhammed took Mecca peacefully because he did."

Marching on a city 10,000 strong and not encountering much of a struggle is not the same thing as peacefully relocating to a city and then making converts.

And, no, my 'booklearning' does not limit itself to quick online searches and cutting and pasting. I chose this account deliberately because it was short, concise and unbiased. When compared to other historical accounts, it made an easy read.

Hewitt1 said: "Religion not subservient to reason leads to murder in the name of God."

ABSOLUTELY!

Matthew 10:34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

Nevermore
I said Muhammed took Mecca peacefully because he did. When he returned to Mecca from Medina Mecca surrendered. Certainly there was caravan raiding before that took place. So what? How was that out of character for people in that region at that time? Or does your 'booklearnin' limit itself to quick online searches cutting and pasting?

Timmy
1) I'm not a Muslim, I'm an agnostic who dislikes prejudice, bigotry and racism.
2) You have provided no evidence. I know full well that Islam went through a period of expansion that involved war. I don't 'know' that Islam used forced conversion at the point of a sword. Islam certainly was not tolorant of polytheism but certainly was tolorant of Christianity and Judism.
3) Where is your evidence that Islamic expansion was 'bloodier' than the crusades? You ever read any accounts of the sack of Jeruselem? Didn't think so.
4) Nobody believes you've read the Quran.

Hey e1313ruth, we already have our christian zealot nut, and his name's spidey. We're used to him and have grown to love him in that "Awwwww...isn't he just adorable!" sort of way. Find another venue on which to display your ignorance and fanaticism, we're all full up here.

DMFarooq- I think you give Bush and the neocons far too much philosophical credit. No- it was greed and oil, really. don't forget that the Bush family has many deep close ties to the Saudis.("Bandar Bush"). but i will say that the War on Terror began with the attack on 9-11. Bush never really dealt with Bin Laden, which should have been our focus. But unfortunately for all of us, Bush and his friends have a great lust for power, not ideology- to them religion is a tool to be used, not a lifestyle. But as for the rest- I can't argue with you. You hit the nail on the head..

When I think of Islam I think of Rev.3-9,10 the synagogue of satan that tempts the entire world.....I also think of satan as the identity thief.Beginning with Isaac and Ishamel..He tries to replace the chosen line of Isaac with Ishamel's descendants..These are those who say they are chosen(jews) but are liars...
Satan attempts to steal God's identity by claiming he(satan) is the real god of abraham..
Satan attempts to steal Jesus identity by saying mohamed and others are ways to God/and by confusing the true identity of Jesus....
Satan tries to steal the identity of the Gospel with the koran..
Satan attempts to steal the identity of the prophet of Deut 18-18 who is clearly Jesus with Mohammed.
.Jesus did say THE THIEF COMES before his return..
The temptation of Jesus was example for men to follow when they encounter satan's church of Rev 3:-9,10 that tempts the entire world..... Satan said to Jesus""FALL DOWN and worship me as the God (allah) and I will give you the world (Jihad).""
How else would satan deceive the world into worshiping him (Isaiah 14:12-22 except by establishing his own church ..wake up world..

It is now popular wisdom, that the Bush administration under influence of necons started the war on terrorism after 9/11. It was with their idealogical biases against Islam. Nevertheless, it was not Islam at the core of the problem. It was deep rooted social and economic injusitce, deprivation of basic human rights of the people who had supported the U.S. in war against Soviet occupation of Afghanistan in 1980s . Afghanistan 20 years later became the epicenter or point zero of terrorism. After seven years of necons idealogical war, with brutal force has not made any sustantial progress in Afghanistan. Rather over time it has spread to adjoining FATA,Swat region , NWFP and sattled districs of Pakistan and now beyond. The World wide reaction of the War on terrorism now has become overvhelmingly adverse than ever expected by the necons in 2001. Now is the time and opportunity for Prresident- elect Obama for a new strategy to combat deep rooted probelms of terrorism in the region as a whole. I believe to start with , we have to fight poverty, injusitices ,lack of economic opportunity and access to basic human needs of education , health etc. in the areas of FATA , Swat region . We have to start and then expand resolution of the basic issues at point zero of the War on terrorism.

timmy2- most fundamentalist religions give women second class status. I certainly don't agree with it but you are wrong to think only Islam believes it. I also think you are arguing apples and oranges when it comes to which religion has committed or condoned more atrocities.

So, Marcedward1, I wouldn't exactly call that peaceful!

Part 3

B Conquest of Mecca

Mecca’s rivalry with Medina and the Muslims concluded with a series of events initiated in 628. As a demonstration of his strength and goodwill, Muhammad and about 1000 Muslims made the pilgrimage to the Kaaba, an ancient sanctuary of the local gods, in Mecca. Outside Mecca, Muhammad concluded an agreement with the Meccans that called for a ten-year peace; allowed the Muslims to make the pilgrimage to the Kaaba; called for the cessation of raids on Meccan caravans; and enabled any tribes allied to Mecca or to Medina to change sides if they so desired.

Muhammad spent the next year extending his control over the tribes in his region. In 630 Muhammad, having attracted large numbers of the younger men of Mecca to join him, marched into Mecca with about 10,000 Muslims and took the city without much of a struggle. One of the younger men was Khalid ibn al-Walid, who would later become the ideal Arab Muslim warrior and earn the title “The Sword of Allah.” (Allah is the Arabic word for “God.”) Within ten years of having been driven out of Mecca, Muhammad returned with the religion of Islam on the rise.

Several weeks after taking Mecca, the Muslims were attacked by about 20,000 Bedouin Arab tribesmen. These nomadic Bedouins, who had resisted submission to Islam, may have been motivated to attack by Muhammad’s destruction of pagan idols in the Kaaba and the conversion of the Kaaba into Islam’s holiest shrine. Muhammad overwhelmingly defeated the Bedouins, leaving him the strongest leader in the Arabian Peninsula. Many Arab tribes then sought alliance with Muhammad. In seeking alliance, these tribes agreed to recognize the prophethood of Muhammad, accept the religion of Islam, and pay an alms tax (zakat). A great confederation of Arab tribes united through Islam was emerging in Arabia.

Part 2

A Rivalry with Mecca

After a number of unproductive tries, the Muslims finally fell upon a caravan and captured it in January 624. They killed one of its guards, shedding the first blood in the name of Islam. The Helpers were troubled because the killing had taken place during a pagan sacred month in which bloodshed was forbidden. Two of Muhammad’s revelations from the Qur'an supported the raid (2:217,218). According to the revelations, the action of the Meccans in driving Muhammad and the Companions out of Mecca was worse than the violation of the pagan sacred month. The attack on the Meccan caravan sparked a series of clashes between Mecca and Muhammad.

In March 624 another victory further strengthened Muhammad’s fledgling Muslim group. Muhammad and about 300 of his men battled a Meccan force three times their size at the oasis of Badr. It was a great victory for the Muslims, and later generations of Muslims considered it a mark of nobility to have fought at Badr. Mecca sought revenge for the 50 Meccans who died at Badr in a great battle fought the following March at a hill called Uhud. Some 3000 Meccans and about 700 Muslims were involved. The Meccans won the initial battle. Muhammad rallied his men, but the Meccans, satisfied with having exacted their revenge, broke off the battle and left.

In 627 Medina was attacked by a force of about 10,000, consisting of Meccans and their tribal allies. The Muslims dug a great trench around their positions, which prevented a cavalry breakthrough. As a result, the Meccans retired after a few weeks of siege, and this became known as the Battle of the Trench. Muhammad used this show of Muslim strength to complete the process of driving the three Jewish tribes out of Medina. The Jewish tribes had found it impossible to accept the prophethood of Muhammad and the universal message of Islam, which undermined the Jewish position as the chosen people. Two tribes had been expelled earlier, and Muhammad suspected the third, the Banu Qurayzah, of conspiring with the Meccans during the Battle of the Trench. Therefore, he had all the remaining Jewish men killed and the women and children sold into slavery. Muhammad was now in control of Medina.

Marcedward1:

Since you are to quick to yell "horse manure" and profess that Mohammad took Mecca peacefully the next few post are for your consumption.

Part 1

Muhammad decided to raid Meccan caravans to provide the Companions with income, as well as to accomplish two larger goals. First, success would restore the Companions’ self-respect, which had suffered by being driven from Mecca, and second, it would demonstrate the truth of Muhammad’s visions and indicate that they had God’s blessing. Also, by ruining Mecca’s trade he would demonstrate to the Meccans that Islam was something bigger than they had supposed.

marcedward1

Unfortunately for you the muslim invasions, which make the crusades look like a bake sale, occurred during recorded history. You, asking me for evidence for the bloody creation of the original muslim empire, is like me stating as a fact that Hitler invaded Poland and you typing in "Evidence?"

It is a matter of historical record just like the crusades are a matter of historical record that the muslim empire was achieved by bloody massacre. People were converted to Islam at the point of the sword. And from then on by brainwashing children and denial of basic human rights and freedoms. Your argument against facts can not be "It couldn't have happened that way, because our book forbids it to be so"

Are you suggesting that the Islamic empire grew from Medina to the largest most widespread empire the world had ever known in less than 100 years by the peaceful loving philosophy? As opposed to militant psychopaths using the doctrine of martyrdom to brainwash ignorant peasants into fighting to the death for God and a special place in paradise in the afterlife, converting and slaughtering as they went? Seriously?

I have read the Koran my friend. And the history of the muslim conquests. Anyone who calls that a religion off peace either hasn't read the book, or is one scary individual.

If Hitler had eventually conquered the whole world, from that point on, there would have been no more war. There would have been peace. This goes for any dictator who managed to conquer the whole world. Including God. Or God's representatives on earth. If Islam had managed to conquer the whole word back when they tried, you would then be correct. The world would now be at peace. All worshiping the one true God. It's too bad they didn't succeed. We'd all be at peace now.

Peace be with you Mac.
I mean you no harm personally. I just know for a fact that your religion was made up by a psychopath who did not know God. And that it is one of the most toxic ideologies ever invented.

Sorry to be so blunt and brash, but our world is in a terrible place right now, and I promise you that Islam is the antithesis to our way out. I have done my best to help you see the truth, all I can do is hope that you see reason one day here in the real world, because this may be the only life that we have. I don't think that the paradise you are waiting for exists. We need to make peace on earth here now. And I can't see how you think that believing that Mohammed knew that the one true God wanted women to be subservient to men, (for example) is our path to peace.

Please get it one day. Please.

Nobody is saying Muslim's are bad people, what the whole civilized world is saying,"ISLAMIST,"are evil people.Dr.Chopra, have your tried teaching yoga or meditation in,"ANY MUSLIM COUNTRY,"they will put you in jail, if not hang you or behead you, depending which muslim country you have been caught preaching such a dangerous, ART.

Yo Sparrow
A problem with Islam is there is no structure like there is in the RC or many of the 'Christian' churches. Like Christianity Muslims have to rely on centuries old writings that were based on a collection of words that reflect a portion of M-hammeds thinking, mixed in with 1000+ year old prejudices and traditions. The Quran contradicts itself over and over (drinking is OK, later it isn't, polygamy is OK, later it's forbidden, etc.) and the attempts to 'clean it up' only made things worse IMO.
Without centralized leadership Islam is in a period of transition from old world to modernity. It's no surprise that we don't hear 'Islamic Leaders condemning terrorism' - does anyone know any Islamic leaders without hitting google.com? Does anybody here read aljazzera?

"The real God will have to deal with this problem engulfing the entire earth...and he will also deal with the liars who are attempting to lead the sheep out of God's pasture and into the broad ways that lead to hell."

Oh good- a Christian moron to add to the collection. And how does this differ from what you claim is in the Koran? It doesn't. You religious extremists all the same. Venal, hating vermin. I'd love to stick you all in a field and so you can kill each other off and leave the rest of us in peace.

e1313ruth writes
'The Koran says do NOT Kill....but contradicts itself with hundreds of verses on instructions for killing entire towns that will not accept Allah...'

Horse manure.

'Terrorists are obeying the Koran and emulating Mohamed.'

'Mohamed' took Mecca peacefully and died not long after that. Maybe by keeping silent you'd look less the fool?

It is true we need to go back to treating terrorists as the COMMON CRIMINALS they are. Bush and our congress elevated them to enemies of our state and that gives them credibility they do not deserve. It helps them recruit when the US says we have a "war on terror". So we need to stop that crap.

OTH, the author's reasoning for doing so does not wash. The muslim terrorists are not all that fringe. I watched millions of muslims take to the streets in violent protests (I call them riots), over the danish cartoons. A lot of people were killed over CARTOONS, buildings and cars were set on fire over CARTOONS. Then there were the huge protests over the teacher issue - is that whole area a hot spot for the "fringe" muslims? I think not.

somali- get a grip. I've spoken out numerous times about not condemning all Muslims for the work of Islamist terrorists but you on the other hand take no responsibility for anything. While you are thanking Mr. Chopra for injecting common sense and humanity into the dialogue you injuect nothing but the same stupid thinking that made Muslim terrorists fly into the Twin towers, attack in Mumbai and consistantly blow themselves up along with women and children in bus stops and clubs in Israel. separate Muslims from their faith? Oh please. How about separate moderate, intelligent Muslims from the moronic, violent stupidity such as yours which has come to define Muslims in the opinion of the world today. You are the problem- and you are not the solution.

And what have the Arab countries done to help the Palestinians? Give them guns and ammunition and bombs to blow themselves up. Give them schools? No. Housing? No. Hospitals? No. Roads? No. Food? No. Just guns, bombs and ammunition. Whatever Israels mistakes are, grow up and take responsibility for your part in this tragedy- it takes 2 to tango.

The Koran says do NOT Kill....but contradicts itself with hundreds of verses on instructions for killing entire towns that will not accept Allah...
Terrorists are obeying the Koran and emulating Mohamed. Their entire purpose from day one was to islamize the entire world accomplished by bloodshed and/or displacement while Arabs stole their lands..This is exactly Arabs/Muslims countries are in existence today..The crusaders slowed this jihad for awhile.. but it is in full force today..

As for who Jesus really is and who allah really is.. consider the temptation of Jesus..Satan said to Jesus and to Muslims FALL DOWN and worship me as the god (allah) and I will give you the world (jihad... Muslims believe satan..Christians do not...
The root cause of terrorism lies in the fact mohamed and his angel of light were of the dark side professing to be messengers of light..

The real God will have to deal with this problem engulfing the entire earth...and he will also deal with the liars who are attempting to lead the sheep out of God's pasture and into the broad ways that lead to hell.. Deepax is an example of one of these false teachers..

"The gospels teach bad people to become better, muslim teachings lead good muslims to become hateful. "

I beg to differ. A cursory glance at the history of Christianity will completely dispel that notion of the gospels making bad people become better. sure- if they followed the spirit of the gospels. But they, like Muslims get hung up on the details that were written for a much older, smaller, more insulated cultures. Good Muslims are following Islam everyday and living peaceful, kind, upright lives with no thought of killing anyone. every major religion has its infidel- christianity is no exception. Just read any post of spidey's to know what I mean.

I will say this though- Islamic leaders need to take a stronger stance on terrorism and interfaith (inclusive of atheists and agnostics, pagans, etc) cooperation. they say the fish stinks from the head down. Imans issuing fatwas for the most foolish or venal of reasons do nothing for their people. You cannot preach love, compassion and understanding only for yourselves. (that goes for the spideys among us too).

The Cocaine-Snorting Terrorist They Call "president" Is The Enemy Of Humanity!!!

Thank you Mr Chopra for helping the cause of common sense and common humanity. Those who started the Criminal, FRAUDULENT EVIL that they call "war on terror" have been using this huge crime to try and separate Muslims from their religion. They won't succeed in doing this.

But thank you again Mr Chopra for asserting decency and common sense which are under a huge attack in the white man's and the jew's world. Essentially, the white man and his jew master have been trying to Terrorise Muslims in the hope of causing us to flee from our religion and way of LIFE and they are hopping through terrorism, by bombing and killing Muslim children and women from the air in THEIR OWN countries and by OCCUPYING Muslim lands and brutalizing the populations, violence that has KILLED MORE THAN A MILLION MUSLIM WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN MORE THAN A HALF A DOZEN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, that they will reach their twisted, EVIL goal of spreading the Middle East Violence between Arab and jew as wide in the world as possible.. Yes, we Muslims are aware of the reasons for this, our HOLLOCAUST. THEY ARE TRYING TO SPREAD THE MIDDLE EAST VIOLENCE BETWEEN THE ARAB aND THE JEW TO ALL MUSLIM LANDS IN ORDER TO GIVE THE JEW AN ALABI AND HIDE HIS FINGERPRINTS IN THE MASS MURDER OF PALESTINIANS!!

BUT this evil will NEVER succeed!!

The Cocaine-Snorting Terrorist They Call "president" Is The Enemy Of Humanity!!!

Thank you Mr Chopra for helping the cause of common sense and common humanity. Those who started the Criminal, FRAUDULENT EVIL that they call "war on terror" have been using this huge crime to try and separate Muslims from their religion. They won't succeed in doing this.

But thank you again Mr Chopra for asserting decency and common sense which are under a huge attack in the white man's and the jew's world. Essentially, the white man and his jew master have been trying to Terrorise Muslims in the hope of causing us to flee from our religion and way of LIFE and they are hopping through terrorism, by bombing and killing Muslim children and women from the air in THEIR OWN countries and by OCCUPYING Muslim lands and brutalizing the populations, violence that has KILLED MORE THAN A MILLION MUSLIM WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN MORE THAN A HALF A DOZEN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, that they will reach their twisted, EVIL goal of spreading the Middle East Violence between Arab and jew as wide in the world as possible.. Yes, we Muslims are aware of the reasons for this, our HOLLOCAUST. THEY ARE TRYING TO SPREAD THE MIDDLE EAST VIOLENCE BETWEEN THE ARAB aND THE JEW TO ALL MUSLIM LANDS IN ORDER TO GIVE THE JEW AN ALABI AND HIDE HIS FINGERPRINTS IN THE MASS MURDER OF PALESTINIANS!!

BUT this evil will NEVER succeed!!

The Cocaine-Snorting Terrorist They Call "president" Is The Enemy Of Humanity!!!

Thank you Mr Chopra for helping the cause of common sense and common humanity. Those who started the Criminal, FRAUDULENT EVIL that they call "war on terror" have been using this huge crime to try and separate Muslims from their religion. They won't succeed in doing this.

But thank you again Mr Chopra for asserting decency and common sense which are under a huge attack in the white man's and the jew's world. Essentially, the white man and his jew master have been trying to Terrorise Muslims in the hope of causing us to flee from our religion and way of LIFE and they are hopping through terrorism, by bombing and killing Muslim children and women from the air in THEIR OWN countries and by OCCUPYING Muslim lands and brutalizing the populations, violence that has KILLED MORE THAN A MILLION MUSLIM WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN MORE THAN A HALF A DOZEN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, that they will reach their twisted, EVIL goal of spreading the Middle East Violence between Arab and jew as wide in the world as possible.. Yes, we Muslims are aware of the reasons for this, our HOLLOCAUST. THEY ARE TRYING TO SPREAD THE MIDDLE EAST VIOLENCE BETWEEN THE ARAB aND THE JEW TO ALL MUSLIM LANDS IN ORDER TO GIVE THE JEW AN ALABI AND HIDE HIS FINGERPRINTS IN THE MASS MURDER OF PALESTINIANS!!

BUT this evil will NEVER succeed!!

The Cocaine-Snorting Terrorist They Call "president" Is The Enemy Of Humanity!!!

Thank you Mr Chopra for helping the cause of common sense and common humanity. Those who started the Criminal, FRAUDULENT EVIL that they call "war on terror" have been using this huge crime to try and separate Muslims from their religion. They won't succeed in doing this.

But thank you again Mr Chopra for asserting decency and common sense which are under a huge attack in the white man's and the jew's world. Essentially, the white man and his jew master have been trying to Terrorise Muslims in the hope of causing us to flee from our religion and way of LIFE and they are hopping through terrorism, by bombing and killing Muslim children and women from the air in THEIR OWN countries and by OCCUPYING Muslim lands and brutalizing the populations, violence that has KILLED MORE THAN A MILLION MUSLIM WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN MORE THAN A HALF A DOZEN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, that they will reach their twisted, EVIL goal of spreading the Middle East Violence between Arab and jew as wide in the world as possible.. Yes, we Muslims are aware of the reasons for this, our HOLLOCAUST. THEY ARE TRYING TO SPREAD THE MIDDLE EAST VIOLENCE BETWEEN THE ARAB aND THE JEW TO ALL MUSLIM LANDS IN ORDER TO GIVE THE JEW AN ALABI AND HIDE HIS FINGERPRINTS IN THE MASS MURDER OF PALESTINIANS!!

BUT this evil will NEVER succeed!!

The Cocaine-Snorting Terrorist They Call "president" Is The Enemy Of Humanity!!!

Thank you Mr Chopra for helping the cause of common sense and common humanity. Those who started the Criminal, FRAUDULENT EVIL that they call "war on terror" have been using this huge crime to try and separate Muslims from their religion. They won't succeed in doing this.

But thank you again Mr Chopra for asserting decency and common sense which are under a huge attack in the white man's and the jew's world. Essentially, the white man and his jew master have been trying to Terrorise Muslims in the hope of causing us to flee from our religion and way of LIFE and they are hopping through terrorism, by bombing and killing Muslim children and women from the air in THEIR OWN countries and by OCCUPYING Muslim lands and brutalizing the populations, violence that has KILLED MORE THAN A MILLION MUSLIM WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN MORE THAN A HALF A DOZEN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, that they will reach their twisted, EVIL goal of spreading the Middle East Violence between Arab and jew as wide in the world as possible.. Yes, we Muslims are aware of the reasons for this, our HOLLOCAUST. THEY ARE TRYING TO SPREAD THE MIDDLE EAST VIOLENCE BETWEEN THE ARAB aND THE JEW TO ALL MUSLIM LANDS IN ORDER TO GIVE THE JEW AN ALABI AND HIDE HIS FINGERPRINTS IN THE MASS MURDER OF PALESTINIANS!!

BUT this evil will NEVER succeed!!

The Cocaine-Snorting Terrorist They Call "president" Is The Enemy Of Humanity!!!

Thank you Mr Chopra for helping the cause of common sense and common humanity. Those who started the Criminal, FRAUDULENT EVIL that they call "war on terror" have been using this huge crime to try and separate Muslims from their religion. They won't succeed in doing this.

But thank you again Mr Chopra for asserting decency and common sense which are under a huge attack in the white man's and the jew's world. Essentially, the white man and his jew master have been trying to Terrorise Muslims in the hope of causing us to flee from our religion and way of LIFE and they are hopping through terrorism, by bombing and killing Muslim children and women from the air in THEIR OWN countries and by OCCUPYING Muslim lands and brutalizing the populations, violence that has KILLED MORE THAN A MILLION MUSLIM WOMEN AND CHILDREN IN MORE THAN A HALF A DOZEN MUSLIM COUNTRIES, that they will reach their twisted, EVIL goal of spreading the Middle East Violence between Arab and jew as wide in the world as possible.. Yes, we Muslims are aware of the reasons for this, our HOLLOCAUST. THEY ARE TRYING TO SPREAD THE MIDDLE EAST VIOLENCE BETWEEN THE ARAB aND THE JEW TO ALL MUSLIM LANDS IN ORDER TO GIVE THE JEW AN ALABI AND HIDE HIS FINGERPRINTS IN THE MASS MURDER OF PALESTINIANS!!

BUT this evil will NEVER succeed!!

The mastermind of the Mumbai attack is living in Pakistan. Will Pakistan deliver him up to Indian justice. Ha, Ha! Muslims believe that any violence vs. India is justified because India rules most of Kashmir, a Muslim country. Muslim will not tolerate their fellow Muslims having to live under non-Muslim rule. All the more reason for deporting them from this country and from all of Europe except Bosnia.

If you don't do this, someday we shall all be shouting: Kill a Muslim, Save America.

Both religions promote violence:
"Do not think that I have come to send peace on Earth. I did not come to send peace, but a sword. I am sent to set a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law" (Mathew 10:34-35).

"And slay them wherever ye catch them." (Al-Baqarah: 191)

"But if they turn away, seize them and slay them wherever ye find them; and (in any case) take no friends or helpers from their ranks” (An-Nisa': 89)

timmy2 writes
'"Of course there is. Islam has a history of peace and tolorance compared to Christianity"

Islam started with a tiny Bedouin tribe. It's path from there to being the greatest and most widespread empire in the world was not through the peaceful spreading of the good word of Mohammed. It was via bloody massacre and conquest.'

Evidence? Certainly many empires relied on 'bloody conquest'. In the case of Islam, Muhammed was able to capture Mecca peacefully. Certainly some later Caliphs spread their power through war, however the Quran forbids killing civilians - compare that to how the Crusaders took Jeruselem and put the city's Jews and Muslims to the sword. The Quran forbids forcing religion on others - how does that compare to Christianity?

'Messengers were sent out in advance of the muslim warriors to let all other kingdoms and rulers know that Islam is coming. Resistance is futile. Our warriors love death more than life and therefore can not be defeated. Submit to Islam or die.'

Horse Manure.

'The rest is history. A history of violence, subjugation, brutal oppression of basic human freedoms and lies.'

If all your opinions are this well researched, nobody need do anything to refute you - you refute yourself with your loudmouthed displays of ignorance. Under Islam other monotheistic religions (Christianity and Judism) are free to keep their religion - compare that to how Christian Europe treated other religions for centuries.

I think we have closer to 500 000 muslims in Sweden. Out of a population of less than 10 million. From the Iraqi war, we receive many more refugees than big USA.

About Islam - actually, there was once a more tolerant and cultural period in its history. That is now long gone, unfortunately.

But basically, there are of course good and bad people everywhere. The bad use their religion to oppress other people (especially women), the good try to find more humanitarian solutions.

ZZim wrote:

asoders22 :
America is strangely religious and strangely violent, and there might be a connection between the two.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
On the other hand, it could simply be your prejudice supplying answers where no evidence of causal connection exists.

------------

Or it could be experience. We have lesser godliness and lesser crime than the US.

And the louder the religious groups demand chastity and virtue, the more suspicious do I become - this is where you are likely to find hypocrites and secret adulterers and pedophiles.

From the site www.sweden.se

Facts

Almost 8 out of 10 Swedes are members of the Church of Sweden - 7 million.

Only 1 in 10 Swedes thinks religion is important in daily life.

Around 7 out of 10 children are christened in the Church of Sweden.

Just over 5 out of 10 weddings take place in church.

Almost 9 out of 10 Swedes have Christian burials.

Islam has around 130,000 adherents in Sweden (more according to Muslim sources).

You said:There are bad christians and bad muslims; there are good christians and good muslims. The gospels teach bad people to become better, muslim teachings lead good muslims to become hateful.
----
Someone will have to help me give credit to the quote, and I'm probably going to paraphrase, but it was essentially: "Good people will do good things, and evil people will do evil things, but for good people to do evil things, that takes religion." I love this statement. It captures the fatal flaw of theism so well.

marcedward1

"Of course there is. Islam has a history of peace and tolorance compared to Christianity"

lol

Islam started with a tiny Bedouin tribe. It's path from there to being the greatest and most widespread empire in the world was not through the peaceful spreading of the good word of Mohammed. It was via bloody massacre and conquest. Messengers were sent out in advance of the muslim warriors to let all other kingdoms and rulers know that Islam is coming. Resistance is futile. Our warriors love death more than life and therefore can not be defeated. Submit to Islam or die. The rest is history. A history of violence, subjugation, brutal oppression of basic human freedoms and lies.

That is why Islam has billions of followers today. Bloody conquest and subjugation 1400 years ago.

Islam was spread by means of violence and conquering subjugation. That's a fact Jack.

marcedward1 :
Most Muslims are not terrorists.
'the fact is that the vast majority of muslims enable the terrorists'
Evidence?
'If this were not so, then the relatively few terrorists would have no place to hide.'
= = = = = = = = = = =
Marc, you are correct, most Muslims are not terrorists. Only about 200 million Muslims support Islamic terrorism. However, Sparrow has a point in that the 100,000 or so active Islamic radicals would not be able to operate without the active and passive assistance of the population in general. The majority of Muslims at least disapprove of Islamic terrorism, but do nothing. The reasons for this are many, one of the simplest is that the terrorists are indiscriminate in who they terrorize. They will kill you and your family if the suspect you might have informed on them. It’s not just non-Muslims who are the victims of Islamic terrorists, the majority of the Muslim population lives in fear, too.

A useful quote form a master of guerrilla warfare: “The guerrilla must move amongst the people as a fish swims in the sea.” – Mao Tse Tung.

I beg to differ with Chopra. Islam is an intolerant religion. I have lived and grown up with Muslim friends. The muslim people are generally nice until they start to dig deeper in the Quran. Then you will see that they become less tolerant even to the point that they become beligerent. I remember growing up that it is customary for muslims and christians to wish each other on their espective holidays. This custom is fading away. Muslims are not allowed to wish christians "merry christmas". Christians are not forbidden by religious authorities to say Min'al Aidin on 1 Syawal - after Ramadhan. The bottom line is that the muslim teaching discourages their followers to acknowledge other religion.
Christianity teaches salvation self denia; and following christ. There are bad christians and bad muslims; there are good christians and good muslims. The gospels teach bad people to become better, muslim teachings lead good muslims to become hateful.

marcedward- I really do try to be fair. there is enough blame to go around for everyone and we do not favors to anyone if we are blinded to that fact.We are all of us casting stones and living in glass houses.

There are probably many Christians in this country who think: "They (many Muslims) are bad; therefore it's okay to killl them." Jihadis think the same way, but Christians do not see the similarity. Both sides are blind. How to open the blind eyes on both sides is the problem. Not that there aren't other historical and social issues. But the mutual blindness is important to recognize and treat seriously through education. Violence encourages more blindness.

marcedward- you need to go back and look at the facts. Israel did not invade except when attacked. And you can add to your list the Muslim countries who have invaded other Muslim countries. Hussein- he invaded Kuwait. Remember that? Or the Syrian invasion of Lebanon? Try not to let your anti-Israeli bias get in the way of facts.

Howdy Sparrow - thanks for your thoughtful words. For a laugh you might check out The Neitsche Family Circus (google it). It sticks random Neitsche quotes under random Family Circus cartoons and improves both.

adrienne_najjar writes
'I am sick and tired of people telling me that most muslims are not terrorists'

Most Muslims are not terrorists. Why does truth bother you so much?

'the fact is that the vast majority of muslims enable the terrorists'

Evidence?

'If this were not so, then the relatively few terrorists would have no place to hide.'

By your logic most Americans are criminals, because if we weren't, there'd be no place for criminals to hide. Why don't you dump your bigotry - it's not useful

elife1975 :
asoders22 :
America is strangely religious and strangely violent, and there might be a connection between the two.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
On the other hand, it could simply be your prejudice supplying answers where no evidence of causal connection exists.
------------------------
ZZIM, you're getting a little defensive there, aren't you? However, your post discussing the importance of limiting ones anger during these discussions was well stated. It's not always as easy as we'd hope, ya know?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Not really, I’m not religious myself. I’m just annoyed by people who make arguments based on appeals to prejudice. I don’t see any difference between that and if he said “Americans are strangely dark-skinned and strangely violent, and there might be a connection between the two.”

dvsikka writes
'Senseless killing of innocents has become a way of life for muslims'

Evidence? Or are you a bigot? What is the violent crime rate in Indonesia or Turkey compared to the USA?

'It is no use comparing Islam with other religions'

Of course there is. Islam has a history of peace and tolorance compared to Christianity. More to the point, which middle eastern country has invaded it's neighbors the most often the last 30 years? That's be Israel. In the last 100 years it's been Christian countries (and certainly non-Muslim countries) that have been starting the wars.

daweeni :
This fellow's math is kind of problematic. If there is only one violent fanatic for every million peaceful Muslims, then he says we are looking at around 1,500 or so "bad guys" in the whole world. Does anyone out there really believe this could possibly be true?
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
No, but Deepak is trying to minimize the importance of Islamic terrorism. So he is intentionally using false numbers to make the problem seem smaller than it really is. Approximately 15% of Muslims believe that the attack on the World Trade Center was right and just. So that means about 200 million Muslims consider themselves supporters of Islamic terrorism. This doesn’t count those who disapprove but don’t feel like they can say anything (due to fear or social pressure). However, there are probably less that 100,000 active Islamic terrorists busy planning, training for and conducting operations. Remember, the actual operative who goes in and murders people is supported by over 100 people.

asoders22 :
America is strangely religious and strangely violent, and there might be a connection between the two.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
On the other hand, it could simply be your prejudice supplying answers where no evidence of causal connection exists.
------------------------
ZZIM, you're getting a little defensive there, aren't you? However, your post discussing the importance of limiting ones anger during these discussions was well stated. It's not always as easy as we'd hope, ya know?

asoders22 :
America is strangely religious and strangely violent, and there might be a connection between the two.
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
On the other hand, it could simply be your prejudice supplying answers where no evidence of causal connection exists.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
ravitchn :
Theoretically Islam as a monotheistic religion should be preferable to Hinduism, a polytheistic religion.
= = = = = = = = = = = = =
Under which theory?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
sladevactory :
How long can a post be? If there are limits on length, you should make that clear. I posted something a while ago, and it hasn't shown up. I'm not sure if that's the reason, or if it was just censored. Oh, well, won't be back on this site again...
= = = = = = = = = = = =
Slade, posts longer than a certain length have to be approved before they get posted. So your post is sitting in Deepak’s inbox. Next time just split it into 2 or more thoughts and address each one separately. That’s what I do. Not that I have many thoughts, I just like to talk.

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
adrienne_najjar :
I am sick and tired of people telling me that most muslims are not terrorists. the fact is that the vast majority of muslims enable the terrorists. If this were not so, then the relatively few terrorists would have no place to hide.
= = = = = = = = = = = = =
Adrienne, your post is accurate, but it would get more respect if you dialed back on the hatred level. Some people find the truth unpleasant, and when they read the truth, they don’t want to believe. So such people will look for an excuse to discount your words. When they see the hatred, they will not ask what personal tragedy caused you to hate so much, they will just dismiss your words as the ranting of a hater, not a thinker they should listen to.

As you pointed out, the truth is that the vast majority of foreign Muslims are at least passively complicit in the crimes of the Islamic terrorists. And passivity in the face of evil is itself an evil. American Muslims, on the other hand, have proven themselves time and again on the field of battle and in the war of ideas as worthy friends and allies against the extremists.

This fellow's math is kind of problematic. If there is only one violent fanatic for every million peaceful Muslims, then he says we are looking at around 1,500 or so "bad guys" in the whole world. Does anyone out there really believe this could possibly be true?

Senseless killing of innocents has become a way of life for muslims, Whether it is 9/11 or recent attack in Bombay.
Islam does differentiate between believers and non-believers. It is no use comparing Islam with other religions.
Till Islam can get rid of non-believers to considered as kafir, we have to face their violent wrath, like it or not.
Live and let live is not possible under present Isalm.

The author is wrong in his assertion Islam is not the problem, and this is just another case of political correctness hiding where the root of the problem is. It is true that the extremists who carry out terrorist attacks comprise a very small minority of the religion (a fraction of 1%). However, there is a much more substantial part of the Islamic population (maybe a third or so)that continually excuses these horrible tactics. These people say, "Of course I reject terrorist, but. . ." and they go on to explain the justifications for these actions. One commenter said it before: There is absolutely zero justification for murdering (i.e. setting out to intentionally kill) innocent people. I challenge you to find a single Christian or Jew (real ones, not fake ones who aren't practicing) who would support terrorist tactics on Muslims or anybody. You will not find one because these faiths categorically ban and denounce such tactics (no matter who is the perp or the victim); no ifs, and especially no "buts." Muslims have to wake up collectively and as one voice denounce these criminals, and throw them out of Islam once and for all.

To some of us Americans, America is strangely religious and strangely violent too. what's sadder is that until the republicans decided to pander to the religious right and use it to win power, we pretty much accepted freedom of religion and sepaation of church and state as the norm. And it was a good thing. Now... we are at the beginning of the American religious wars. Can we say "taliban" anyone?

please be truthful to the God of Truth. yes, this problem is one of terrorism which is accurate. but what is more accurate is that this problem is one of islamic terrorism. like i said, please be honest to Truth.

Edbyronadams

Until 1996 all swedish citizens born were automatically made members of the church of Sweden if one of their parents was a member. This is where your kind of statistics comes from.

Most recent Eurobarameter poll shows that only 23% of Swedes believe in God. You are right. 90% was an exaggeration. It is actually only 77%. I stand corrected.

I can't agree on the number of 90% atheists in Sweden, but religion plays a far lesser role here than in the U.S. Most people are nominally lutherans, but they rarely visit a church - maybe once or twice a year, and when they marry - if they marry. Many still baptize their children. Most are very vague about faith - they might say "maybe there is something bigger out there" - that's about it.

What Americans consider "normal" religion, would be viewed as bordering on fanatic here. The Swedish king and prime minister keep their religion to themselves, and you will never hear them say "God bless Sweden". It would be seen is inappropriate. A big newspaper in Sweden would not have a page called "On faith" or "Under God".

But we do have an enormous Muslim population, refugees. So far it is working, but there are cultural clashes, especially when it comes to young people wanting to "live Swedish".

It is correct though that the rate of violence and crime in Sweden is far, far under that of U.S. Violent gangs are not a Swedish tradition. So to us, America is strangely religious and strangely violent, and there might be a connection between the two.

I'm sorry Ed did I miss the post where you showed one good thing that requires belief in a supernatural God?

marcedward- I didn't say there are no Jewish extremists- my point was that Jews are not the ones committing terrorist acts against innocent people who have nothing to do with Israel, Palestine, or anything else. Israel is engaged in a battle with the Palestinians and as such acts in self-defense. Not to say (and I did saythis) it hasn't made mistakes. I have no respect for those Jewish settlers who put their own self-interests over the desire for peace and frankly think the Israeli army should simply cut them loose until they stop acting like selfish a**holes with no consideration for others.

I also don't agree that Islam creates terrorists. There ae statements in the Koran as well as the bible that civilized societies today reject, whether because they are outmoded, inherently destructive or simply uncivilized. If we all lived strictly according to the bible we would be in a state of even more bloody barbarism than we are now. Extremists will take things out of context and twist them to their own ends- Christianity has done so as well as Islam.

Every major religion has this underlying "with G-d on our side" stupid way of thinking. As the bible says, let he who is without sin cast the first stone. Hmmm.....no shower of rocks yet...

we're forgetting that the bible and Koran are ancient documents written for societies of the time. Understand them in that context- I assume we do. Our justice system does not let us chop off the hands of thieves or pluck out eyes. somewhere along the line reasonable people understood the bible is a guide to faith, not a blueprint for day to day living. these books were written for societies that existed several thousand years ago- I think we can all agree that society has changed.

It's the mental luddites who insist that we must live and die by the writings of 2000 year old men.Islamic extremists, Jewish extremists, Christian extremists, Hindu extremists, Buddhist extremists- they aren't the majority yet we give them all this power.

I am sick and tired of people telling me that most muslims are not terrorists. the fact is that the vast majority of muslims enable the terrorists. If this were not so, then the relatively few terrorists would have no place to hide.

They get material support in one way or another by cowardly muslims who don't stand up to their bullying.

They get support from muslims who allow them to train on their soil.

They get support from muslims who don't report suspicious activity.

They get support from muslims who contribute money to s0-called charitable casues.

They get support from muslims who don't publicly and demonstrably challenge the very idea of terrorism as a tool of their pig religion.

Get the picture?

How long can a post be? If there are limits on length, you should make that clear. I posted something a while ago, and it hasn't shown up. I'm not sure if that's the reason, or if it was just censored. Oh, well, won't be back on this site again...

EBKS

What you are influenced by is the same thing that I have been influenced by. The philosophical teachings of the mythical character "Jesus" are a beautiful contribution to the human spirit. Same goes for the philosophical teachings of Martin Luther King.

Neither of these men are Gods. Just brilliant philosophical talkers. We are all inspired by beautiful words. But when we think that those words are divine and commandments from the almighty God, then the trouble starts.

timmy2
"CIA factbook
lol
isn't that just the most delicious oxymoron ever."

Okay, what authoritative source gave you the 90% atheist figure?

"Spiritual truths?"

It's not God, it's the mystic law including simultaneous cause and effect, karmic retribution and discerning the Middle Way.

It's funny how atheists love Darwin until all the truths being revealed about behavioral selection are brought up.

There may be a one fanatic for a million peaceful Muslims (although I think number is more like 100 fanatics out of a million Muslims), the fact remains that those fanatics have taken hold of the Islamic agenda with non-fanatics being painted by the same brush. Latest terrorism in Mumbai shows that when nationalism (in this case Pakistani nationalism) joins hands with Islam, even a government talks two languages – one for the show and one for the practice. People of other faiths want to be nonviolent but are forced to become violent in order to just survive against the terrorist onslaught. No amount of preaching or belief in nonviolence can trump a terrorist holding a gun to your head. When death is a certainty if one remains nonviolent, it is hard to fathom if God is an issue or not and if Islam is an enemy or not.

edbyronadams

CIA factbook
lol
isn't that just the most delicious oxymoron ever.

still waiting for you to impart these spiritual truths you speak of.

To ABKS:
By helping as a representative of the church, rather than as a representative of basic humanity, you have "bible in hand", metaphorically speaking. I won't argue that yours and many churches perform a service to the community, but wouldn't these same people be as generous without the church? Why the middle-man?

ABKS

You said:
"The VAST majority of the faithful are just good, ordinary people trying to leave this world a little better than we found it"

Agreed. They are good people.
And if we suddenly discovered that there is no God, I suppose these people would cease and desist all charity work immediately? Are you suggesting that these people are only being charitable because they believe that God commands it?

Take away God belief and they would suddenly be selfish jerks?

TIMMY2 - I have immense respect for anyone who helps out their fellow man, and I agree that religion is not a prerequisite. I choose to do it through religion because I believe in a higher power. If you have other reasons for kindness, that's wonderful. That said, Christ's teachings have been fundemental to the development of my values, and how I see the world. I have no way of knowing how involved I would be charity if that influence was not present in my life.

My main issue with your comments had to do with the AK47 analogy. You seem unwilling to acknowledge any good that comes from religion, instead only admitting that not EVERY religious person is evil. This seems to me to be willful ignorance on your part.

“backing off from war as our unequivocal policy”

Rational people do not commit suicide for no good reason. Rational people do not take unprovoked violent action against strangers. Much evidence exists that those we call terrorists are indeed rational people, which means their perspective convinces them there are valid reasons for the acts they orchestrate and commit. The effectiveness of many of these acts shows us they are not raving maniacs. If we can accept these people as rational, if we can accept they may have a legitimate grievance they are trying desperately to express, and if we can understand that as fellow humans they deserve our sympathy though we may disapprove of their actions, it may be possible to actually join forces with them in creating a more secure future for everyone.

Sweden, from the CIA factbook:

"Religions:
Lutheran 87%, other (includes Roman Catholic, Orthodox, Baptist, Muslim, Jewish, and Buddhist) 13% "

edbyronadams

Spiritual truths?
You have some spiritual truths do you ?
Do tell?
We'd all like to hear you spiritual truths.

Following the golden rule is logical and reasonable. No God belief required.

1975 - who is this "they" who are helping people with bible in hand? Have you seen them? Did they once try to sneakily build you a house only to try to convert you later? I hate when that happens.

Listen, if you (as you claim) "respect individuals who are willing to volunteer their time and efforts...because they genuinely care about their fellow man", then you respect me, and every church volunteer I work with. The VAST majority of the faithful are just good, ordinary people trying to leave this world a little better than we found it.

Deepak likes being tolerant but he is playing the fool here.

ABKS

The good people in your church feed those people with their good hearts, not with religion. No God belief is required. Are you suggesting that the good people in your church would not feed poor people if were it not commanded by God? What does that say about them then. Clearly these are good hearted people who would be helping others whether religion existed or not. If you disagree, what are you saying about those people?

There are thousands of secular charities and philanthropists doing the same thing without religion. Sweden is 90% atheist and has far fewer homeless people and less crime per capita than the US which is 90% Christian. Can you explain this?

I asked you to name one good thing that religion does. Not one good thing that kind hearted people do. How is religion necessary for charity?

Do you get it?

Theoretically Islam as a monotheistic religion should be preferable to Hinduism, a polytheistic religion. But Hindus have not been aggressors against other states and peoples, except during the 1947 population transfer between newly created Pakistan and India. No one fears Hindus trying to impose their religion on others, except for some Christian groups in India who have been proselytized by westerners. Indian Christians like the Syrian Orthodox who have been in India for over 1500 years have no such fears. Hindus, whatever one thinks of their pagan religion and rituals, are peaceful and relatively tolerant: you could even have them for neighbors. Muslims are bad neighbors. I usedd to think Muslims were basically ok because they were "people of the book" so to speak. I was wrong. Islam is a terroristic movement to force Islam down the throats of everyone else -- or else. It must not be allowed in civilized communities.

This same line of thinking is how the left became known as the party soft on crime. Whenever someone is raped, the left just wants to make sure that the rapist is not handled roughly by the arresting officers, that the rapist is questioned properly, that people understand the rapist had a tough childhood, that people understand the rapist could have gotten help but Reagan cut the program which would have helped him, that the rapist gets a fair jury, judge and trial and that the rapist does not get an unfairly long sentence, and then when the rapist gets out that he is not unfairly discriminated against as a sex offender in the community, and you know those sex offender registrations go too far and make it so those poor rapists don't get a chance to rehabilitate themselves, and on and on.

I saw you on tv blame America for the woes of people like you...
I hope you don't live in America...
and if you do...
lets hope that whatever happens to us...
happens to you...
and as far as muslims go...
I don't see them condemning the terrorists...
and by my book...
evil wins...
when so called good people does nothing to stop evil...

You said: TIMMY2 - my church feeds the needy and builds homes for the less fortunate. Thousands of other churches around the nation and world undertake similar missions of charity and love. I doubt you could find an AK47 with as much up-side potential.

And they do it with bible in hand. Once converted, they can twist the masses to confirm to their theistic agenda. We don't need more zombies, thank you very much. I have much more respect for any individuals who are willing to volunteer their time and efforts who aren't doing so just to get in to a "heaven", but because they genuinely care about their fellow man.

timmy2.

"following the golden rule is an evolutionary construct. Altruism is actually a selfish thing. A survival mechanism. Read all about it in science journals."

Altruism is a Darwinistic selection as long as you share enough genes with the group you self sacrifice for. Outside of that genocide and rape are selective forces. While Scandinavians may share enough genetic code for Darwinism to explain their behavior in a multicultural society such as our own, spiritual truths may work better.

edbyronadams

following the golden rule is an evolutionary construct. Altruism is actually a selfish thing. A survival mechanism. Read all about it in science journals.

Scandinavia is 90% atheist and yet they don't seem to be suffering from the enforcement duties of which you speak. Can you explain this?

I'm afraid your argument weak here sir.

TIMMY2 - my church feeds the needy and builds homes for the less fortunate. Thousands of other churches around the nation and world undertake similar missions of charity and love. I doubt you could find an AK47 with as much up-side potential.

Islam is not the problem. Religion is.

Take away cosy amminities from these atheists (the so-called humanists)and send them for sometime to harsh life of any african country, they will began believing God or may be you find them as witch doctors.

It is obvious that most of the violence is based on religion and religious differences which in many cases results in economic and political discrimination.

World leaders to include BO and his foreign policy advisers first need to promulgate the flaws and errors in the major religions. This should remove the foundations of the terrorist messages and recruitment.

Once this is done, what "hot pockets" of terror activity that do remain should be dealt with force to include cruise missiles and unmanned aircraft rocket attacks anywhere at anytime.

Think my loaded gun analogy is whack?

Think again.

Deuteronomy 20:10-18
10 When you draw near to a town to fight against it, offer it terms of peace. 11If it accepts your terms of peace and surrenders to you, then all the people in it shall serve you in forced labour. 12If it does not submit to you peacefully, but makes war against you, then you shall besiege it; 13and when the Lord your God gives it into your hand, you shall put all its males to the sword. 14You may, however, take as your booty the women, the children, livestock, and everything else in the town, all its spoil. You may enjoy the spoil of your enemies, which the Lord your God has given you. 15Thus you shall treat all the towns that are very far from you, which are not towns of the nations here. 16But as for the towns of these peoples that the Lord your God is giving you as an inheritance, you must not let anything that breathes remain alive. 17You shall annihilate them—the Hittites and the Amorites, the Canaanites and the Perizzites, the Hivites and the Jebusites—just as the Lord your God has commanded, 18so that they may not teach you to do all the abhorrent things that they do for their gods, and you thus sin against the Lord your God.

Loaded AK-47

-rds7481
Your feeling the need to point out the differences between the two sects is a perfect example of various groups choosing to interprete religious texts as they see fit to support their arguments and claims. Again, the fundamental problem with religion in general, and the reason for untold atrocities.

timmy2

"Still waiting for one of you religious apologists to present one good thing that religion ads to society."

Not a religious apologist but regard for spiritual truths lead many to lead a circumspect life, including following the golden rule. Without that you are left with legalism to keep order is society and we would be swallowed by enforcement duties if we did not rely on voluntary compliance with the law, a good deal of it out of religious conviction, from the populace.

rds7481 writes
'marcedward1-you are wrong when you say that Sharia only applies to Sunni. Sharia is islamic law.The difference between Sunni sharia and Shia Sharia is that the Shia place less emphasis on the "hadith" (essentially the teachings of the Prophet) because they (the Shia) challenge the succession and feel that the Hadith were transmitted by illegitimate successors and are therefore questionable as to whether they were the true teachings of the Prophet'

You don't know what you're talking about.

Unfortunately, religion and God are the issues that have been hijacked by almost all major religions of the world. Almost all major religions have perpetrated violence on the innocents under the name of God. The examples below are glaring facts---Christianity (e. the crusades, the inquisitions, forced conversions, claims of being the only religion that offers salvation), Judaism (under the excuse of holocaust perpetrating countless atrocities against the Palestinians), Hinduism (caste/gender based discrimination),Islam (gender based discrimination, claims that non-Muslims are the Infidels). Every one of these religions have twisted interpretations of their "God" and their religion, to suit the power hunger they have. I can not believe that "any God" will bless anyone who commits such heinous acts against "life". I wonder if any one ever stops to think what kind of God would prescribes such behavior! Why do humans have to worry about which God is followed by whom? Is God so weak as to need a spokesperson or a middle man to promote God? we are all diverse and naturally have diverse views of God and religion--why cant we be open minded and tolerant towards each other and stop the finger pointing since we know that every act that is against "a life" is an act against God. It is amusing to find the disclaimer in Politics that I am not a Muslim I follow Christianity.Like this should be a disqualification! Once we collectively banish the desire to get rid of the hunger for power by hook or crook we are closer to true Godliness.

Still waiting for one of you religious apologists to present one good thing that religion ads to society. It is all bad as far as I can see. It is all negative. How could it not be? It is a celestial dictatorship. Is it not? With each religion claiming to know the dictators wishes intimately. How could this result in anything but bloody horror?

The religious apologist argument basically adds up to:

"religion doesn't kill people. People kill people"

Sound familiar? It's the NRA credo adapted.

"Guns don't kill people. People kill people"

Religion = Loaded gun

Loaded guns are completely harmless agents of peace unless put into the hands of a crazy person.

There is nothing dangerous about a loaded AK-47
There is nothing dangerous about Religion.

Right?
Only in the hands of bad people right?

Leave loaded AK-47's alone!
Most of them never hurt anybody.

The Islamic religion IS the problem. All Muslims are covered by three categories: inciters, Jihadists, and fifth columnists. Period.
*****
"Deepak Chopra is the author of more than fifty books translated into over thirty-five languages."

Which only goes to prove Saul Bellows point:
"A great deal of intelligence can be invested in ignorance when the need for illusion is deep."
See for example:

http://www.theness.com/neurologicablog/index.php?p=153

Chopra is a pseudo-scientific fantasist. For a more informative WaPo columnist read Miss Manners,
who will actually explain to you how to make the world a better place.

Islam in theory, as a religion, is not the enemy. Islam in PRACTICE is. Get the mullahs to stop spewing hate. A religion is only as good as how you choose to use it.

The problem with any religious test is that it can be interpreted to fit whatever agenda the reader possesses. That's the fundamental problem with religion.

If any Christian group dared to carry out an attack like Mumbai in Christianity's name, the condemnation from every Christian authority and the rank and file would be deafening. From Islam, the silence is deafening. If it wasn't for the elaborate conspiracy theories thrown up in defense, the silence would be absolute.

Most of the wars were not fought for religion but to subjugate others. Expamples: veitnaam war, korean war, war on afghanistan and iraq. A number of assassinations and pulling down of democratic governments were above these wars. Look what happened to chile. Still the americans keep forces in countries like germany, japan and korea even after 60/70 years of world warII. The murder of Mussadaq in iran was act of CIA to bring puppet shah of iran into power.
Dont blame religion alone for wars. If war is ugly who owns most sophisticated weapons in the world? and who sells them earning large revennue every year.
Dont blame Islam, 9/11 was a conspiracy to impose new world order . read it on the web , choose the site you wish i am not going to dictate to any website of my choice.
See what is economic terrorism and how deeply it kills spanning over years of fammine. Read what was opium war and who inflected it over china.

Read the conspiracy to make all of slaves through
RFID , it is not Islam , it the new world order.

Visit the Website of congressman RON PAUL.On website read "confession of a economic hitman"
and you will know what is terrorism and why is terrorism.

Those who deny God and float their stupid humanism just want to spread filth like gay life , extra-marritial affairs, abortion - a sort of terrorism and they talk without any logic.Just abusing the religion makes no point.

OSAMA BIN LADEN ON FEB. 23, 1998-A FATWA: "The ruling to kill the Americans and their allies -- civilians and military -- is an individual duty for every Muslim who can do it in any country in which it is possible to do it, in order to liberate the al-Aqsa Mosque and the holy mosque [Mecca] from their grip, and in order for their armies to move out of all the lands of Islam, defeated and unable to threaten any Muslim. This is in accordance with the words of Almighty God, "and fight the pagans all together as they fight you all together," and "fight them until there is no more tumult or oppression, and there prevail justice and faith in God."

WP,

I posted a longer comment/analysis on terrorism some two hours ago-where is it?

It takes time and effort to expalin the causes of terrorism and how to deal with them-and it is such a waste of time if WP censors freedom of exression that is based on facts and common senese.

marcedward1-you are wrong when you say that Sharia only applies to Sunni. Sharia is islamic law. The difference between Sunni sharia and Shia Sharia is that the Shia place less emphasis on the "hadith" (essentially the teachings of the Prophet) because they (the Shia) challenge the succession and feel that the Hadith were transmitted by illegitimate successors and are therefore questionable as to whether they were the true teachings of the Prophet.

I am a Christian, and I have noticed something about the response of Muslims to Muslim terrorists.

If a Christian committed terrorist acts in the name of Christ, it would be very easy to rebuke such actions from a Christian standpoint. The Bible forbids this kind of thing in specific, direct language.

In contrast, I have seen almost no refutation of Islamic terrorists from a specifically Muslim point of view. What I hear instead from Muslims is language like, "terrorism is wrong", "no civilized person could do what was done on 9/11", etc. I have never heard anyone quote from the Koran or any other Muslim holy writings to refute the acts of Islamic terrorists. It makes me wonder if it could be done.

It is true, of course, that no decent or civilized person could commit terrorist acts. But the silence of Muslims makes me wonder, and it brings up the disturbing possibility that being a faithful Muslim and being a decent, civilized person need not be the same thing.

I would welcome correction on this. Is there any Muslim text that could effectively be used to condemn, for example, the Mumbai killings?

ravitchn,
Your following comment is a loud and clear call for ethnic cleanesing of hundreds of millions of Muslims around the world:
"At the very least this is what can be done, short of a total extermination of Muslims. We can insist that no Muslims live in non-Muslim states."

U are an ignorant racist.

rds7481 writes
'a good christian can submit to a temporal power. As Jesus said "give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar". There is no such room for a devout Muslim. The only acceptable outcome is for a Muslim to live under Sharia'

Sharia is only in Sunni Islam. Moreover Sharia law is not neccessarily Islamic law, as it was created centuries after the prophet died and is riddled with tribal law.

mortified469 writes
'Islam IS the enemy'

Actually ignorance is the enemy, and you are as ignorant as any Taliban.

ravitchn writes
'Christianity and Judaism have shown they can change in the direction of toleration and moderation.'

It'd be more accurate to say that there are moderate Christians and Jews, and there are many moderate Muslims. There are plenty of extremist Christian and Jews as well - none of those Abraham based religions have clean hands.

'Islam has not shown this and there are features of its religion'

You clearly don't read enough. There are moderate Muslims all over the world, even in Palestine and Iran.

'It may be that war to the death with Islam is an unfortunate necessity at some point.'

Change 'Islam' to 'the Jews' and look who you sound like!

As a Hindu from India, Mr. Chopra's comments are the typical docile response of a pacifist. India as a nation has to respond to the existential threat from Pakistan militarily. An intelligent military response will unite all Indians (Hindus, muslims, shikhs and christians) politically and don't target the enemy within India and in Pakistan as a muslim threat but as a terorist threat against the very idea of a secular India. The action against Pakistan should be coordinated with USA and the West where possible, but not meekly wait for USA's permission.
Indian muslims are victims of Pakistani-sponsored terrorists just as Hindus and this time in Mumbai other westerners as well. Behaving in a docile manner will only invite more ruthless attacks on a far bigger scale.

ZZim writes
'And notice how the Jewish state takes responsibility for these jerks and beats them down?'

However Israel does encourage 'settlers' who illegally park their rear ends (with the backing of the Isreali military) in Palestinian areas. The settlers usually carry automatic weapons and have a well deserved reputation for going into Palestinian areas and shooting/beating people. The Israeli government does little to nothing about this.

'It would be nice if the Muslims were willing to do the same thing'

Rather a broad brush. You'd be more accurate if you said 'the Saudis' as their Wahhibist(sp) schools promote this kind of thinking. The Iranians certainly have no use for Al Qaeda. Neither did Saddam, neither do the Turks. Of course when Bush declared his 'war on terror' he exempted the Saudis and mostly went after the enemies of Al Qaeda.

'Christian nations have just as many murderous psychos as Muslim nations...In fact, I’m having a hard time thinking of examples. Weren’t there some anti-abortion terrorists a couple of decades ago?'

In the 1990s American terrorist Eric Rudolph was bombing abortion clinics. He hid out in the mountians of NC for a long time and the local Christians helped him out a lot.

I don't think there is any world-wide problem with Muslims supporting terrorism. The problem with Al Qaeda is a Saudi problem. Hamas and the PLO are problems for Israel, but not the USA.

Deepak Chopra: "Everyone has a right to be in charge of his own change. No external force can apply the two necessaries of change, which are desire and incentive”

This is an accurate observation, one that is stated in Amendment one of the American constitution, and may have been put there for the express purpose of allowing each individual to develop spiritually without the "guidance" of others. Religious ‘cults’, whether Islamic, Christian, Atheist or Agnostic, seek to impose their values on others in order to justify their own existence including economic, and this may be a fundamental contradiction of spiritual growth and awareness. You are correct: Islam is not the enemy and ‘God’ as perceived by any person is not the issue. It is the imposition of absurd, totalitarian living conditions in the name of religion or atheism that is the enemy of the human spirit. Sharia, as written by men (Al-Bukhari) with a desire only to control physically, should be subject to community referendum by those who do not wish to impose civil laws on others who have attained a spiritual and moral basis for their own existence. The real issue is whether the cultist by his acts of violent control of others is an enemy of the Race of Man and how to isolate the cults from the vast majority of humanity

The only reason Hindus were not exterminated when the Muslims conquered India was that there were just too many of them. We know what happened to non-monotheists elsewhere under Islam.

At the very base of all religious oppression and terrorism, is really the urge to dominate and kill. Religion is the big excuse. In the name of religion you can obviously do anything, commit any act of crime and cruelty.

At the very least this is what can be done, short of a total extermination of Muslims. We can insist that no Muslims live in non-Muslim states. The Muslims will be happier living in Muslim states and so will the rest of us. This might require non-Muslims to leave Muslim states but they would also benefit. You cannot live with these fanatics in the same state.

From your 'conditions to post a comment':
"Your MyPost User ID, which you'll be asked to choose if you haven't done so already, will be displayed with your comment. We hope this will encourage more topical, spam-free, and respectful discussions."

I am afraid that your rule stated above and echoed by many other news sites might have unintended and quite opposite effects on the 'body politic'. It might even contribute to dangers. Historicly, anonymous postings, publications, whistle-blowing, etc, have been extremely helpful in benefiting our alleged democracy. With government (state and national) agencies increasing efforts to 'track', to 'weed out' , 'record the activities of' dissenters, it behooves us to stand back and re-assess just what
can happen. In my work, I definitely sense more of a tendency of citizens to choose not to speak up if their identity is revealed. Government's ability, as it is backed up by nearly unlimited resources, to stifle dissent, to secretely harm individuals for no legitimate reason is well-known. State Police officers, eg., as was
recently revealed in the NYTimes were caught red-handed recording and categorizing innocent civilians as 'terrorists' for no reason other than the officers' own distorted perceptions and total disregard for our Constitution.

There is a place for anonymity: it alone has done much to keep our country if not 'free', at least less likely to have rights unlawfully restricted.

Even as I sit here, knowing that the ultra-rightists might choose to harm me for speaking out in this comment. I'll take that risk. Not to do so would be un-American.

tkjtkj

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sk1967 : For those who demand Muslims police their own, such as some on this comments page, that is the epitome of ignorance. First it assumes, that most Muslims know are in touch with terrorists: a stupid assertion. Next, it assumes that even if most Muslims knew who these people are before they act, that simply telling them they are wrong will cause terrorists to have an epiphany and change their minds. Pure folly!
= = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Actually, it’s the only way to put an end to the problem. The community must police its own. Only the community knows who the inciters are. Only the community knows who the facilitators are. Only the community can spot youth at risk before they are lost. The American Muslim community does a superb job of policing extremism within its own ranks. There have been no successful acts of Islamic terrorism originating from within the US since the 1993 WTC bombing. American Muslims have 100 times more opportunity to commit religious crimes than foreigners do, but they don’t. Why not? Because they police their own.

Here is the basic problem- a good christian can submit to a temporal power. As Jesus said "give unto Caesar what belongs to Caesar". There is no such room for a devout Muslim. The only acceptable outcome is for a Muslim to live under Sharia and it is incumbent on a good Muslim to work towards that outcome.

If Islam is not the problem I would like to have a Muslim explain to me how the fundamental tenant of their faith doesn't conflict with modern democracy?

For those who demand Muslims police their own, such as some on this comments page, that is the epitome of ignorance. First it assumes, that most Muslims know are in touch with terrorists: a stupid assertion. Next, it assumes that even if most Muslims knew who these people are before they act, that simply telling them they are wrong will cause terrorists to have an epiphany and change their minds. Pure folly!

Are you trying to say that everyone in the Muslim community is completely unaware of the extremists in their midst who plan and execute terrorist acts? Of only one percent of those "peaceful" Muslims knew someone who was a violent extremist and took action to stop the violence, then the extremists would be outnumbered ten to one by their co-religionists who want a peaceful coexistance with the rest of the world. That sounds like it should be overwhelming odds against the terrorists...not at all like the crowds at WalMart. The truth is that most of Islam either doesn't care if the extremists kill Christians, Jews or whoever the enemy of the month is, or that they either actively or passively support the extremists. The followers of Islam have shown repeatedly that they will not make the hard decision to aggressively oppose the extremists in their midst. Only a fool or a liar would claim that the extremists operate without the rest of the Umma (Muslim community) knowing who they are and what they are doing.

Religion itself is the heart of the problem. Any appeal to the irrational as an explanation for the everyday always reaches this end game. This has happened over and over across human history. Religious belief inevitably leads to intolerance. Intolerance leads to prejudice, pogroms, wars and genocide. This cycle is documented as far back as recorded history reaches. Archeological evidence going even further back into pre-history suggests the symbiotic relationship between religion and violence has been a part of homo sapiens since the earliest times. Driven by our fears of the unknown in the natural world around us we grasp at irrational explanations. These beliefs may help us sleep at night, but they also lead us to murder our neighbors.
Religion poisons everything.

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marcedward1 :
Yo Sparrow, certainly there are extremists in the Jewish community. Just this morning BBC was reporting on settlers using violence against Isreali police who were seeking to evict them from an illegally occupied house.
= = = = = = = = = = = = =
And notice how the Jewish state takes responsibility for these jerks and beats them down? It would be nice if the Muslims were willing to do the same thing.

Christian nations have just as many murderous psychos as Muslim nations, we just do a better job of beating them down when they get out of control. We even beat people down for saying mean stuff, so it almost never gets to the level of Christian terrorists slaughtering innocent infidels for the glory of God. In fact, I’m having a hard time thinking of examples. Weren’t there some anti-abortion terrorists a couple of decades ago?

I can’t think of any Buddhist terrorists. I don’t know what religion the Sri Lankan terrorists are, but I think they are a secular nationalist group, anyway.

There’s also a lot of violence in India perpetrated by Hindus, but I’m not very knowledgeable about that. I’m pretty sure that about half of all victims of Islamic terrorism are Hindus, so the situation there is pretty complex.

I wholeheartedly agree with Arif that the culprit for these atrocities is not this group or that but it is the cult of Islam. You only have to listen to their religious clerics addressing their congregations to know where all this hatred originates. This is an ideology of supremacy and segregation that is given the sanction of the Creator and His rewards ; an afterlife brimming with dark eyed receptive beauties for those who destroy the others. Some on these threads accuse all religions, while others rationalize evil in terms of grievances of one kind or another, but I repeat it is just this one ideology which is falsely attributed to Allah. Until it is debunked events like those of Mumbai and the like will keep on happening.

Islam IS the enemy.

Islam,Christianity and Judaism come from the same poisoned well of semitic religious intolerance. But Christianity and Judaism have shown they can change in the direction of toleration and moderation. Islam has not shown this and there are features of its religion -- the most semitic and fanatical of all -- which lead many to believe it cannot change in a positive direction. It may be that war to the death with Islam is an unfortunate necessity at some point.

enaughton27 writes
No religion condones killing

'That is simply not true. The Koran explicitly encourages killing. I am not making this up. You can read it in the book, if you would just open it up and read it.'

The OT certainly condones killing, even killing innocent people if it's God's will.
Doesn't the Quran have rules of war? Don't those rules state that 'god' only blesses wars that are defensive? Doesn't the Quran state that in those defensive wars there should be no looting, no killing of civilians, no killing of women and children? Further, doesn't the Quran state that if the enemy seeks peace one should halt the war?
Seems to me the Quran has a more civilized view of war than the OT or the RCC.

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ColeM :
Is a government leveling a village from the air any less terroristic than a bomb going off in a car?
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No, assuming of course that the bombing is random and is intended only to kill random civilians in order to terrorize the population. There are a number of countries that use terror to control their populations. Sudan, Iraq used to but we fixed that, Afghanistan used to but we fixed that, Zimbabwe. There may be other examples of past behavior, but these 4 are the only countries that I can think of that are currently engaging in mass terror as a state tool. I think it would be a good thing if we were to put a stop to what is going on in Sudan and Zimbabwe, but I can’t see Obama taking any bold action like GWB did.

Yo Sparrow, certainly there are extremists in the Jewish community. Just this morning BBC was reporting on settlers using violence against Isreali police who were seeking to evict them from an illegally occupied house. Everything I read about the 'settlers' (why do they mostly come from the USA?) is that they are violent and constantly looking for trouble. Certainly the people working with Al Qaeda are far more violent (and lack the wit to beat up on helpless Palestinians when nobody is looking) but Judism has it's extremists just like Islam and Christianity.

ColeM :
Timmy2, I could not agree more.

No religion condones killing

-- That is simply not true. The Koran explicitly encourages killing. I am not making this up. You can read it in the book, if you would just open it up and read it.

It would clarify thinking if you and most other people would stop using abstract terms like Islam, Christianity, etc. that assume there is some essence that can be captured in these words and used as if they describe the actual religion that exists in the world. They don't because actual Muslims believe different things about theology, ethics, politics, and so on. In real life what matters practically is what Muslims actually believe and act on. The notion that Islam as such is or believes or teaches X, Y, or Z confuses the assumed abstract essence with the concrete reality as it exists in actual people.

The reason people do this is that it assumes their version of a religion corresponds with the reality and states the truth of the matter so that anyone who disagrees is offering a distortion or a mistaken idea.

It would be more helpful if we all said, "As a practicing Muslim (or Christian or Jew or Buddhist, etc.) I believe Islam (or Christianity or Judaism or Buddhism) is best represented in X, Y, or Z, or whatever. Or some Muslims believe A about B but other Muslims believe C about B.

This way acknowledges the diversity in the real world, and in the real world, this is what matters, is what we have to deal with in everyday life. I don't have to come to terms with "Judaism" but with the Jews who live in my neighborhood or my town. In the real world, there are Orthodox Jews, Conservative Jews, and so on. There are fundamentalist Protestants and liberal Protestants and numerous varieties of Catholics whose beliefs and practices actually matter.

This way is more messy and complicated, but it would save us from the notion that what somebody thinks Islam or whatever religion teaches is the truth of the matter whereas in fact it only states what that person or group believes that it is.

Sam Harris and others would respectfully disagree, Mr. Chopra. As with most religions (with a few rare exceptions), it is the stated goal to convert others or repress and eliminate them when possible. Our planet is entering its second renaissance. It's time to finally bury such archaic notions and work together as humans for humanity and for our planet.

....This is very syrupy and at the same time oleaginous hype, stacked on top of hypocrisy. What is needed is evidence from Muslims everywhere that this barbaric murderous behavior of their co-religionists has to be a combat from within Islam. When will we wise up to this passivity?

Timmy2, I could not agree more.

No religion condones killing but it is used by politicians to identify groups of cannon fodder. Is the terror in Ireland any different because it is christian on christian? It is a bunch of politicians using the gullible to do the unthinkable.

During the recent election cycle, we heard a lot about the importance of christian values and I keep wondering how the values of working hard, raising your children and taking care of your family is any different for any religious group.

Do not underestimate the damage that our christian jihadists have done killing millions in Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan for our politicians. Many times more dead than we in the west have suffered. Is a government leveling a village from the air any less terrorstic than a bomb going off in a car?

Deepak, God is not in this equation, at least not from our side. I know the other side thinks that God commands them to kill, subdue, or convert us. But on our side, we just want them to stop killing us. Where is God in that equation? There is none.

We don’t need God to see that violence is the correct response to violence. Violence is the trump card in Human relations. If you are playing cards and the other guy leads with a trump card, then you must follow suit of accept defeat before you have even started to play your hand. Likewise, if someone uses violence against you, then you must use violence to defend yourself. Otherwise, your only alternative is to submit to their violent assertion of power over you and hope your new masters are in a mood to treat you well once they have control of your fate. I would submit for consideration the idea that people who begin negotiations with a violent assault do not have the potential to be kind masters.

This is unacceptable to a free people and unacceptable in terms of Human freedom, rights, and dignity.

You do raise a valid point though, the Islamic radicals are a natural extension of the Islamic society that creates them. At the tip of the knife are people who are clearly beyond the bounds of civilized society that no sane person would object to treating with the strongest measures. But where along the blade do we stop? If we face a continuum of belief from violent extremist to peaceful co-religionist, where do we draw the line? If we don’t draw a line anywhere, then the peaceful co-religionist will feel threatened when we rightly and justly attack the extremist?

That is our task, drawing that line. Drawing the line will be difficult, but it is not beyond our powers. It would be helpful if the peaceful co-religionists would draw the line themselves and forcibly eject the violent extremists form their own society. We should certainly exert ourselves in this direction. But to give up using violence against the extremists in the meantime is unacceptable.

PS - Sparrow4, right on, man!
PS2 - Hewitt1, good show!

Religion was meant to comfort the human spirit and serve as a moral compass. The various religions bear inlfluences of geographical and cultural cradles that they were born out of. Untill they confronted each other there could have been no clash of cultures. And when they did meet I am sure people were suspicious of everything that wasn't familiar. So one each one tried to assert the superiority of their own instead of looking at the other with an open mind. That battle is still running.
I'd like to believe that we have evolved since, contrary to evidence available.
Let us recognize that the purpose religions serve is the same even if the methods and parctices are not.
The solution is more engagement with each other not less.

Murderous attacks in the name of their religion seem to disturb Muslims little compared to Dutch cartoons.

Yes, izlum is the problem.

That and the practitioners or izlum.

Just pick up a newpaper.

ASTORIA

You attack a series of straw man arguments not made by me in order to justify ignoring the religious basis for the Mumbai terrorists. Your only valid point is to ask for the basis of my claim that the terrorists first received instruction from the Koran. My basis is a Washington Post article detailing the results of interrogation of the lone surviving terrorist. He described his religious indoctrination.

The rest of your long ramble boils down to one fallacy: Religion is good. Anything bad that comes from religion is not true religion. The fallacy justifies any set of beliefs including inconsistent beliefs. For example, "yes, some Stalinists did bad things, but they were not true Stalinists."

Islam IS the problem. Islam commands that all areas of the world that have ever been under Islamic dominion must return to Islamic dominion, achieved through force. Jews and Christians may reside in Muslim areas, but in a strictly subordinate role, and they must pay a special tax for the privilege of residence. All others are to be given the choice of conversion to Islam or death. Any apostate, who converts from Islam to another religion, must be put to death. Women have a strictly proscribed, subordinate role. These are basic tenets of Islam. You can sugar coat it with all the ecumenical make-nice words you want, but the goal of Islam is Islamic domination of the world, with no freedom for half the world's population, and death for those who oppose Islamic dominion. Read Ms. Hirsi's book INFIDEL for an excellent, first hand account of the true practice of Islam in much of the Islamic world.

If there is a million peaceful Muslims to every terrorist, then they have a responsibility to force the extremists to cease their violent actions. Mere inaction is just as culpable as throwing a bomb. But many of these "peaceful" Muslims were cheering in the streets after 9/11, now weren't they?

-- Exactly.

http://www.missionmeeting.org/spandau/

That Islam is not the problem will be of great comfort to those who saw their loved ones decapitated while the murderers shouted "God is great!"

spark1- Jews are not neocons and they defend themselves against bombs, missiles, suicide bombers, etc. Jews do not fly planes into buildings. They do not strap mentally impaired adults with explosives and send them into a crowd. They do not raise their sons to believe being a suicide bomber will get them heavenly virgins. they do not go into a hotel and start shooting everyone in sight. They do not let their children stand in the middle of a gun shooting crowd who are trying to incite soldiers to start shooting. I'll not argue that Israel has made mistakes, but terrorists? You have no idea what terrorism is.

Deepak:

Thank you for your wonderful comments and clarity on the real issue, instead of the bloodthirst by so many to demonize the religion and 1.5 billion followers of Islam.

For those who demand Muslims police their own, such as some on this comments page, that is the epitome of ignorance. First it assumes, that most Muslims know are in touch with terrorists: a stupid assertion. Next, it assumes that even if most Muslims knew who these people are before they act, that simply telling them they are wrong will cause terrorists to have an epiphany and change their minds. Pure folly!

That would be like standing in front of the recent WalMart mob and try to stop them from stampeding. Lot of good it would have done, right? Like the WalMart crowd in Long Island on Black Friday, terrorists are aware of their actions but they commit them even though they know them to be wrong; they simply, and obviously, don't care about what others think.

Islam itself is a problem. Ataturk saw how it hamstrung his nation so he put religion in its proper place and 70 years later Turks still struggle to keep it penned in. Islam has several doctrinal issues that make it a unique source of threat. The economic proscriptions, such as the one against lending at interest, doom Muslim majority nations without petroleum to anemic economies. The oppression of one half of the population, religiously sanctified, is evil and a barrier to progress. The deadly response to any updating of the final prophet's message keeps their societies from modernizing.

Mr. Choprah's commitment to ecumenical egalitarianism is admirable but clearly is at odds with the facts. Islam is a fount of dysfunction and that dysfunction spills over into terrorist headlines regularly in the world news.

If there is a million peaceful Muslims to every terrorist, then they have a responsibility to force the extremists to cease their violent actions. Mere inaction is just as culpable as throwing a bomb. But many of these "peaceful" Muslims were cheering in the streets after 9/11, now weren't they? There were murals found in Iraq glorifying the destruction of the World Trade Center on 9/11, weren't there? Sounds to me like those "peaceful" Muslims were providing comfort and support to the extremists. Shame on them and shame on you for not calling all of the Muslim world to account for the terrorists who murder, rape, torture and maim in the name of Allah as well as those who wish to deny women and people of other faiths their human rights and dignity.

All the ???????

You who do not find evidence to beleive is God
first know the limitations of your upper chamber.

For those who have sight can feel Him in every act of nature.

A man's dna code streched reached sun in length and still you think no one is behind this wonderful act.

What to talk about big bang you cannot prove your past 3rd or 4th generation.

It is not the eyes but the hearts that goes blind.

God is the issue. More accurately, the use of "god" is the issue. Anyone’s claim to
“knowing god’s” intent, will or plan is employing the ultimate put down and ending any need to examine the views or values of the other party.

No one, no one knows who or what “god” is. Any definition is based on our limited experience. We don’t know what existed before the “big bang” occurred. Humankind can only explain anything based on the material world in which we live. Therefore, any representation of “god” is a reflection of ourselves. While the Bible speaks of man being made in the image of “god”, mankind has always been creating gods in its own image.

The sooner those who claim to “know” or “represent god” walk away from the charade in
which they participate, the sooner we will have delegitimized “religious fundamentalism.” Obviously, those who are the “religious moderates” have the favored position to initiate the abandonment if they can find the courage. Many do realize the fallacy of their trade, but don't have the "faith" to escape.

I feel that other religions too have extremists

Look at the jews and the recent advents of neo-cons killing many thousand people aided by state terrorism - Do they believe in nobody? are they not guided by cult-ridden ideas.
Lets talk about all kind of terrorism - do you people know what is economic terrorism? how many people were killed by this instrument.
Alas! you could comprehend the real culprit behind all this exremism - it is grabing of resources - even you who live in NY and LA are slaves, who live in the house of your master thats why you are different from the farm slaves who live elsewhere in the world.
Read what Congressman RON PAUL have to say about this mance which is terrorism is guise.

Who is patronising cultivation of opium and production of heroine in afghanistan? only those who are spreading state terrorism - Dont cry wolf wolf - You are the one responsible for all this happening because of your injustice towards humanity.

The 9/11 culprits didt came from Iraq or Afghanistan, how many people innocent people are killed there?
When someone suisides it is a desprite act againts the society --- not told by GOD as you put the blame on the religion.

Dont be proud of your cognitive gimicks there are other human domains too.

Athena

You wrote:
"Do you people honestly think that, if we all became atheists, war would cease?

First of all we are all atheists. Do you believe in Zeus? Jupiter? Horrace? Vishnu? Athena? :) Do you believe that Joseph Smith found sacred tablets in America telling of how Jesus visited America and turned all of the pagans red? I assume the answer is no which makes you an atheist. We are all atheists, some of us just need to go one god further.

You said: "Religion is just one culprit for war"

I'm glad to see that you admit that it is a culprit of war. As for the other culprits you list:

"nationalism"
Yes. Nationalism is the other main cause. It must also go bye bye. All humans are created equal. There is no longer a need for separate countries and governments. Because we are all born equal, one government should suit us all fine. Of course the biggest obstacle to doing away with nationalism is.... Religion. It is a relentless divider. Unless of course you think that we will all be able to agree on one religion some day.

"Resources"
Moot without nationalism

"conquest of territory"
Moot without nationalism

"revenge for perceived injustices"
Moot without nationalism and religion

You said:
"The problem is that humans are hard-wired to think that the "other" is the enemy. Our tribe good, everybody else bad"

Right. No religion, no nationalism = no "other".

You said:
"Religion is just one of many ways that we identify who is a member of the "good" tribe or the "bad" tribe"

It is the primary way. And what a horrible thing.
Something to facilitate us dividing into tribes.
You are defending this institution because....?????

Astoria, you said:
"All I can say, Timmy, is that Stalin was not a religious man- yet he killed millions"

Stalin WAS a religion. A god on earth. A dictator to be worshiped. And like God, he murdered his subjects who displeased him. He did not do what he did in the name of reason and secularism. He was a mad man who replaced God. And you sound unaware of the fact that Stalin reinstated the church during his reign and Died a Christian.

Not only is this the most pathetic and irrelevant talking point of the religious apologists, but it also has absolutely nothing to do with anything that I said.

Astoria- I do the same! I am always having conversations with perfect strangers, on the street, in the subway. One of the joys of living in NYC. I did it just today in the supermarket, talking to a sweet elderly lady about her arthritis. On the bus last year a young Muslim woman, orthodox enough that her face was veiled spoke to me about her worries for her son in religious school and that she was going to defy her family and put him in whatever school she felt would give him the best education. My friends try to keep me on a leash when we're out and about :-)

Well that's ok. I haven't experienced - well- actually I have- but that is okay-
I tend to write exactly as I am thinking and don't edit- sometimes maybe you've noticed I come back when I realize I've written an incomplete thought-

No problem at all- I'm a very friendly person in real life and a magnet for all sorts because I make eye contact with everyone so I invite alot of folks who others may avoid for their enthusisam or craziness or whatever-

Also, I'll stand and listen for a long time- even if someone is way out there (I did it tonight) as you can imagine- I spend alot of time on the NY subways- and- yes- even there- so- I bring it on myself-
did I have a point? apparently not-
peace!

I don't know, astoria- I try to understand their thinking, and often I do. I understand the roots of terrorism but I just can't accept the things people choose to do. Because we do have a choice. Targeting the innocent bystander, the tourist, the worker is an act of cowardice. It's easy to go after women and children, people on the street or at work. I have forgiven and forgotten a lot in my life but I draw the line at forgiving that.

Athena- really well said- that was what I was trying to communicate but you did it so much more neatly and succinctly.

I was, as I am prone to do- trying to walk in the shoes of the 'others'.

Yes- of course we all hate violence and terrorism- but hating it isn't enough for me- I want to understand why these things happen-

I tried to imiagne what the political forces were that may have led to these attacks-

I wasn't thinking about making distinctions between Jews and Christians andtheir missions- because I was trying to imagine how it must appear to the people there-
anyway- I did it quickly and tried to figure it out- something besides the us and them shallow analysis-

because- and I don;t care if this is upsetting- there really isn't any people who are that strange to me that they become some kind of demon-

even terrorists, even murderers rapists-
O forgave my rapists, I forgave my abusers, I forgave my mother's murderer-
I haven't yet found the limit of what is possible to forgive or at least understand-

Ok- I've had enough. I responded at length and on Patel- but I don;t want to talk any more.

Astoria writes:

Observer, Are you out of your mind?
You made a blanket and incorrect statement- you were wrong.
I corrected you
___________________________

I shan't respond to ad hominems. She did not "correct" me, but did post.

There are many horrible things that have happened in India, Farnaz and others have repeatedly posted, she particularly on the Dalit.

She lived in India as I recall. The issue of the six Jews targeted for slaughter coincided with a discussion of racism. I append this to clarify for anyone who is having difficulty following Astoria's thought.

She hops from thread to thread spreading mischief, often enough incomprehensibly to most.

Astoria- I've made it very clear that I do not think this is a specifically antisemitic attack, despite the torture and murder of the Lubavitcher because many others of all faiths were murdered. I've posted that on several threads and I am as angry about those innocent deaths as I am about Jewish deaths.Observer speaks for himself, not for me or for Jews. (He is not Jewish.)

Yet somehow you come out with this statement the Jews are converting Hindus to Christianity because they are evangelists. It's a ridiculous and false statement.

I'll repeat exactly what you wrote:"The only people in that area who eally have a consistent problem with Jews, Americans and Brits are the RSS and extremist Hindu groups who have been conducting a pogrom against Indian Christians(mostly from the Dalit- or untouchable caste) who are being proselytized and evangelicized to and converted from Hinduism to Christianity by the same groups- American, British, and Jewish evangelicals.
Jewish Evangelicals? Yes, the Chabad-Lubavitchers- from which 2 of the slain come- are proselytizers of their faith- (but only to other Jewish people)"

If you want to clear that up, I'll be more than happy to listen.

Do you people honestly think that, if we all became atheists, war would cease? Hardly. Religion is just one culprit for war. Resources, conquest of territory, nationalism, revenge for perceived injustices, etc. have all been used to justify wars. It isn't all about religion. Was WWI about religion? No. Neither was WWII, when it comes down to it.

The problem is that humans are hard-wired to think that the "other" is the enemy. Our tribe good, everybody else bad. Religion is just one of many ways that we identify who is a member of the "good" tribe or the "bad" tribe.

All I can say, Timmy, is that Stalin was not a religious man- yet he killed millions.

Observer, Are you out of your mind?
You made a blanket and incorrect statement- you were wrong.
I corrected you.

All I can say sparrow- is investigate on your own.

I'm not saying anything unusual in this- nor a thing unknown.

My point was, and is- that the concentration on the foreigness of the targeted victims- and other missionaires in India- have had some real diificulty- is not necessarily an isolated incident-

The siege at Mumbai is by no means the only terrorist activity happening in India right now- there is a pogrom against the Christains in Orissa- thousands driven out of their homes- churches burned- people slain-

and there were 186 people slain at Mumbai-
if you choose to focus on the 6 - that is your pregorgative- but I was thinking in wider terms, and including all of those who were murdered.

Nothing justifies terrorism. Nothing. Nothing. Nothing. I odn't care who you are. I don't care what your gripe is. The only people who suffer at terrorists hands are innocent people in the streets. they don't even go after the people most responsible- they just go after the innocent. Nothing justifies it. Nothing.

Deepak,

Let me put it another way. Muslim terrorism in India, the US, Europe, is justifiable if terrorism ever is. In Israel it is far less so.

It doesn't get less justifiable because your ass is on the line. Watch out for special pleading.

Deepak, here's the bottom line: Gujarat.

India has enjoyed the silence of the west despite genocidal acts such as that which occurred in Gujurat and its historic treatment of Muslims as second class citizens. India of course has its own home grown Islamic extremists as well as Hindu extremists who have influence not only in India but in the US, eg., Columbia University and Europe.

The atrocities against the Dalit, the oppression of Muslims is tolerated because of India's potential wealth and relative (very relative) stability.

Then, too, Hindus, unlike Jews, do not suffer from two thousand years of christian genocidal persecution.

Racism against Jews combined with Arab oil interests has made Israel a scapegoat, for you as well as for others, racism against Jews a free pass, while leaving Hindus and India to do what they will.

Now, a lot of things are happening. Jews are getting edgy as you may have noticed, and some Christians are gaining consciousness. Your arrogant pronouncements against Muslims here, against Jews elsewhere can only go so far. The media, government and business hunger for Indian wealth may prevail. Then, again, it may not.

Were I you, I'd way every word very carefully.

Astoria said:

"It is as ridiculous to assert that all Muslims are fanatics, as with any other group-"

No one said that they are all fanatics. We said that they are all irrational and/or delusional, which they are. Irrationality and delusion are the root cause of terrorism. Religious delusion is particularly volatile because of it's nature of course.

ergo, belief in God is the root problem.
All of those details you list off about all of the complex reasons for all of these conflicts all come back to religion.

Without the belief in God, none of these people wouldn't have anything to fight about. Ethnicity is religion. Without religion, there is no ethnicity. Only skin colour and eye shape. Without religion, we are all the same. With religion, we are mortal enemies.

Religion go bye bye?
Terrorism and war go bye bye.
Period.

You can get lost in the details all you want, Astoria, it all comes back to religion as the root cause.

Yes, the Chabad-Lubavitchers- from which 2 of the slain come- are proselytizers of their faith- (but only to other Jewish people)"

Six were tortured to death in Naiman house. Rivka was six months pregnant. Her two year old son, who lived, was carried out covered in his mother's blood, badly bruised, crying for her.

Neither Rivka nor Gavriel weren't "proseltyzing to their own people."

The Chasids do not seek additional members. Like all Jews they welcome whomever wishes to join them. They were a place for Jews travelling through or sojourning in India. They reached out to Bene Israel and other indigenous Jews. Evidently, their abundant and evident good will ultimately made them welcome everywhere. They lived very simply and worked with the poor.

Jewish evangelists (sic)

"Evangelical" was derived from the Greek word "euangelion" which means: "gospel" or "good news.

Moreover Jews don't seek converts, are not conversionists, although they welcome those who seek to convert.

Sparrow,
I read astoria's post as you asked, now I have a concerning astoria. Recall the Patel thread, this one, and this post.

Do you get it yet?

christian evangelists proselytize to convert others. Jews do not do that, so how is this a problem, astoria? Chabad house simply gives Jews a place to stay that is familiar. why single out Jews? How do Jews offend Hindu extremists (we already know that just by living and breathing we Jews offend Muslims)?

You wrote:"The only people in that area who eally have a consistent problem with Jews, Americans and Brits are the RSS and extremist Hindu groups who have been conducting a pogrom against Indian Christians(mostly from the Dalit- or untouchable caste) who are being proselytized and evangelicized to and converted from Hinduism to Christianity by the same groups- American, British, and Jewish evangelicals.
Jewish Evangelicals? Yes, the Chabad-Lubavitchers- from which 2 of the slain come- are proselytizers of their faith- (but only to other Jewish people)"

You make absolutely no sense- Jews are hardly converting Hindus to Christianity (or even to Judaism) You make absolutely no sense whatsoever but your bias is very obvious. And you even say that the Lubavitchers only proselytize to other Jews- do you even comprehend what you are saying?

And you are the perfect example in your bias to illustrate why religion and extremism are part of the mix and need to be dealt with openly and honestly. Sorry Mr. Chopra, soft pedaling the base issues and excuses for terrorism will do nothing. It's very idealistic to say G-d should be taken out of the equation but sadly, He has been made the equation.

"The first training received by the Mumbai terrorists was religious readings from the Koran so that they would be willing to kill and be killed for Allah."

Amazing that you have access to what their training is, when their identity is still specualted.

What makes you think the Mumbai terrorists killed only as a reprisal for Gujurat?

This is the conjecture in the Indian Press.

This is why it is so important to rely on people to define themselves.

There were 186 people who were murdered, not 6.
And all of their deaths are tragic, as are terrorist activities under the banner of any ideology-
Stalinism, or Christianity, or Hinduism or Islam.

And one looks always to see who benefits from any man-made catastophe-

The only people in that area who eally have a consistent problem with Jews, Americans and Brits are the RSS and extremist Hindu groups who have been conducting a pogrom against Indian Christians(mostly from the Dalit- or untouchable caste) who are being proselytized and evangelicized to and converted from Hinduism to Christianity by the same groups- American, British, and Jewish evangelicals.
Jewish Evangelicals? Yes, the Chabad-Lubavitchers- from which 2 of the slain come- are proselytizers of their faith- (but only to other Jewish people)

http://www.cbn.com/cbnnews/455386.aspx

Hindus purging christians from Orissa-
burning homes and churches, displacing 500,000 and murderng more than at Mumbai-

It doesn't make the news-

You see, you are looking for a quick fix- a simple solution to a complex problem-

Then you can compartmentalize it and comfortable relegate it to the back of your consciousness so you don't have to think much about the roots and causes of what is casuing this violence around the world, and particularly India.

To simplify an enemy- and find a target for people to release their frustrations upon is not exactly a new tactic.

I am also observing a subtle but new element of Sinophobia (I just made that word up) developing-

Are all Hindus crazy ugly racist elitist killers?
What a stupid stupid thing to think.

A few are, but the same goes for Isalm, and the same goes for Jews- not every Jew is oppressing Palestinians and forcing them to live in prison camp conditions with the highest malnutrition among their children today-

Don;t be a fool to find such easy targets for your own subliminal xenophobia-
or at least realize that some of your views are based on the unquestioning suspension of belief that the news propogates.

It is as ridiculous to assert that all Muslims are fanatics, as with any other group-

And it is very easy to separate the fanatics from the religion because the fanatics are actng AGAINST the many precepts of Islam.

The religion itself, which gave us scientific method- IS subservient to reason.

It is the politically and socially motivated ignorant hate filled fringes that perform oppressions and injustices IN EVERY GROUP.

ASTORIA

How can you ignore the terrorists own statements as to their motivation? The first training received by the Mumbai terrorists was religious readings from the Koran so that they would be willing to kill and be killed for Allah. The terrorist groups that trained them are explicit about their religious goals in their propaganda.

What makes you think the Mumbai terrorists killed only as a reprisal for Gujurat? There is no basis for that speculation and a key fact that contradicts it. The terrorists were looking to kill anyone with an American or British passport and all Jews. Americans, Brits, and Jews were not involved in Gujurat.

You, like Chopra, turn your back on the elephant in the room. Religious belief based on faith has no moral limits. It all too easily slides into murder of the unconverted. The Mumbai terrorists are not mere "extremists"; they are Moslem religious fanatics fighting for their version of the One True Faith.

Islam is the enemy. God is the issue.

Christianity is also the enemy. So is Judaism. So is any primitive superstitious belief that pretends to know what moral laws the creator of the universe has for us. How could such a philosophy not cause unspeakable horror between humans????

"Islam is based, like all religions, on the notion that a higher authority governs human behavior. If you kill an enemy, it's a sin, but if you kill that enemy because God told you to, your sin is erased"

Enough said.
Belief in God is the only culprit.
All efforts to turn the blame away from religion are naive and irresponsible to the extreme.

God of the bible and the Koran does not exist.
Belief in him is by far the biggest cause of human suffering and horror the world has ever known.

Smarten up Deepak! You should know better.

Deepak and Astoria,

Agreed! To a certain extent!

Because, then there are those "religious fanatics" who wanted to lynch a British teacher because she allowed her pupils to name a teddy bear Muhammed.

And those who would murder a Danish cartoonist, did murder a Hollandish movie producer, stone women to death for supposed adultery, etc.

They are not terrorist in a sense, they have a personal agenda related to their religion and have no problem killing for it.

It's ridiculous to portray 22% of the total world population as needing to be dragged 'kicking and screaming' into the modern world.
Look at Turkey- look at the 7-10 million peaceful Muslims in America.

Terrorism isn't a religious problem- it is a political problem.

Where do you see ANY conversion attempts in this Hewitt?

The attacks and murder in Mumbai were venegeance for the slaughter at Gujurat of 2,000 (some say upwards of 3,000) Muslims by Hindu extremists.

Terrorism doesn't arise in a vacuum- and its actors are evangelists killing to convert-
these incidence (some given great airplay- some completely ignored)

Both are wrong- and there are extremists and there are regualr normal moderate people who are just trying to live their lives in peace.

40 of the 186 murdered were Muslims.

It's not a war between humanity and fringe 'Moslems" it is an exposure of extremists and fringe fanantics whatever their affiliation-

You can't leave God out of the equation when one side is engaged in an explicit religious war. We fight against terrorism. They fight to convert or kill everyone on the planet to their brand of Islam.

Yes, this isn't a war between Christianity and Islam. That's what the fanatics hope to create, and we need to avod. It is a war between humanity and fringe fanatical Moslems.

Chopra and others want to deemphasize the religious aspect, because they are aware that criticism of religious fanatics is hard to separate from a criticism of all religion. Let the chips fall where they may. Religion not subservient to reason leads to murder in the name of God. If religionists can't accept that, then they need to suggest some other way to check the slide to murder of anyone who won't convert.