Mini Skirts, Yes. Burqas, No?

I agree one hundred percent with Abhab. If you get all of your ideas about America and the West from "glamour" magazines, then it is true that you might think most Western women wear miniskirt and have cosmetic surgery. But that is not true, and the ones that do, do of ther own free will.

There is nothing wrong with modesty, but if it is taken to an extreme, it is a diseased practice, for one purpose and one purpose only, to assert in an aggressive way the inferityh of women and the superiority of Islam over other religions. But in fact, religion is speculative in nature, and to assume that ones speculations are more proper or correct than someone else's boils down to intolerance.

The difficulites between Islam and Christianity are not really over theologyh or custom. The problem is actually the inevitable conflict when two intolerant people seek to impose they speculative "truth" on the other.

I wonder how some ppl would like just to express their opinion about something they don't know or understand. It is like an engineer commenting on how a heart surgery should be done.

Some do some research in Wikipedia in which the contents could be written by the same Engineer. All i want to say, Hijab is a religious requirement by all Muslim women and it is not restricted to the piece of cloth on top of the head. It has some characteristics like the cloths women wearing should not describe the body (tight), transparent, etc.

Niqab (face cover) on the other hand is a different story and there is some talk about it. Some Islamic scholars say it is a must and others not. Nevertheless, those who think it is not a must consider niqab is better if the woman wants it.
In summary, whoever wants to defame Islam, Go ahead since it grows as much as ppl attack it and whoever wants to know about Islam, search for it from the horse's mouth.

Why is it that even 21st century men have such a hard time recognizing when women’s rights are being trampled? Deepak Chopra is among the most enlightened and intelligent of our society’s men, so it is particularly disappointing to see him put forth such drivel.

The most disturbing thing I see in common among writers supporting freedom to wear the burqa is a minimization of the women who are forced or pressured into wearing one. It’s really quite naïve to say that only in Taliban society are women forced into wearing the burqa. That pathology exists in some form everywhere. Even in Canada, a 16-year old Muslim girl was strangled to death by her father, in an “honor killing,” for routinely refusing to cover her head.

Furthermore, it is illegitimate to argue that Muslims are being singled out because of 9/11 or terrorism. French public schools currently ban ALL “conspicuous religious symbols” regardless of whether the symbol is Islamic, Christian, Jewish, Hindu, Sikh, etc. For example, yarmulkes for Jewish boys and turbans for Sikh boys are banned.

And finally, doesn't Chopra, a medical doctor, find it troubling that women who wear the burqa commonly suffer from Vitamin D deficiency due to lack of adequate sunlight exposure, and that there is a resurgence of rickets in children because their moms did not get enough sunlight while pregnant?

In short, there is nothing natural or healthy about wearing a burqa. It was conceived as a tool of oppression and it still is. Why else would Al Qaeda terrorists already be threatening a retaliatory attack on France if Sarkozy gets his burqa ban?

The logic of what Mr. Sarkozy is proposing is undeniable: If no woman can legally wear a burqa, then no woman can be forced into wearing one.

And for those women who say they choose to wear a burqa...your “right” to wear a burqa is a very small matter when stacked up against the need of your fellow women NOT to be forced into wearing one. You have a very wide array of western clothing styles available to you that can fulfill your desire for modesty. You don't need a burqa to be modest.

I can never understand this obsession with the so-called modesty to the extent that an increasing number of women are wrapping themselves with head to toe shrouds. It is a flagrant statement that “I am holier than thou”. It is not different than those who choose street corners to do their ritual prayers, as commonly seen in Muslim societies. The Muslim prophet had 13 wives at one time living in one place and had guests visiting him all day long. He naturally wanted to protect his wives from the prying eyes of those stranger houseguests. His insecurity maybe understandable but that is no reason why all Muslim woman on earth need to be wrapped as such. A piece of cloth never protected a fallen woman from herself nor had an unveiled face corrupt a virtuous one.

Religious people feel a special entitlement and privlige which amounst to intolerance, that makes their claims to relgious conviciton exemtpt from criticism because the critic does not "understand" their religion. I admit it, that I am ignorant for the most part of Islam. After all, it is not my religion, why should you expect me to be an expert?

Mormons and Catholics have the EXACT same defense that you have, that no one can criticize them because "outsiders" do not understand them.

I am not an expert on Islam. I have known a number of Islamic people, in a setting where they can speak freely about their culture and their religion. What I heard from them is not very flattering, and a lot less kind than anything that I have said on this forum.

You did not answer any of my criticims, but merely continued your personal attack on me, to make me feel bad and to upset me. That is the way that religious people defend their intolerance, by changing the subject to trash others and their beliefs.

Muslims always and especially in recent times have different opinions about the hijab, head cover or whatever you want to call it; and all this stems from a vaguely, probably on purpose, described pronouncement by God in our scripture the holy Qur’an.

Some Muslim women wear the hijab as a sign of their piety and to show that they take their religion seriously. To me personally what counts more is what’s in the person’s heart; and the hijab is not a necessary or a sufficient argument by which a woman’s piety is to be judged. On the other hand I appreciate the point of view of the ladies who wear them and I command them for wearing a garment that sometimes brings unwarranted ridicule among other things from some ignorant folk.

For Iranian women the hijab is obligatory but it shouldn’t so. But for you to generalize and spit out all those demeaning insulting words among them ugly, confining, uncomfortable, monstrosities, dangerous, bogus, contorted, subjugation, appaled, contorted… is uncalled for. All subjective ideas you hurl so unashamedly without ever giving a reasoned and logical argument. It is like insulting for the sake for insulting and no more.

Here is an instance of your ridiculous claims: “No Islamic woman would ever choose to wear those monstrosities.” If what you mean is the niqab, I might give you the benefit of the doubt but what I sense is you don’t care for either. You speak from ignorance and that’s not the first time either. You are always on the judgmental side of things without comprehending all the nuances to appreciate all the different ways of being. You can be a good dictator by the way.

Let me give you an example on a personal level. I have five nieces back in Tunisia and three of them are college graduates. They don’t wear the hijab except for one of them. She chose to wear it despite her father advising her not to knowing that he is a very pious and religious person; but he appreciated what she was doing. So I am in no mood to accept that kind of insults and accusation of subjugation from a small town hick who doesn’t know he is talking about. It is really that simple.

ukba

There is something perverse and weird about wicked old men forcing a mode of dress on women who simpley DO NOT WANT IT!

You can belittle me all you want, call me names, and insult me all you want, but you have no argument to persuade me, nor anyone else. I suppose the only argument you would know is the stick! But, sorry, even that is unconviincing.

Your comments are a bit absurd, aren't they, in light of what is happening in Iran? A woman just needs to look sideways at the Basiji, to get her just punishment, bashed with a stick, or worse yet, a bullet through her neck.

No Islamic woman would ever choose to wear those monstrosities. Their only claim to "free-will" in this matter, is enforced by their near-by male minders, who will punish them if they say otherwise. That is a fact. Prove to me that it is not.

This is what I believe. I have heard it straight from the horse's mouth.

DITLD: “Respect is earned, and these contorted justifications for the subjugation of women have not earned mine, and never will.”

Contorted only if you have blinders and tunnel vision. At nay rate, who in the world cares what you think, if you ask me. Just stick to your three god religion and all its creeds of contorted and mangle theology. That should keep your little mind busy for the rest of your life. Nuances and appreciation of different point of views are not your forte.

Let Muslim women be as free to choose as any Western girl with tattoos and piercings. Beauty in this case is in the eyes of the wearer.
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I say EVREYBODY goes go NAKED.

(At least at the beach, anyway.)

I don't see why you folks get so upset over anything Deepak has to say. He, like his father and grandfather before him, are from old time charlatans and psuedo religious con men that have made a living extruding their own curious mix of dharma, sufism and now modern psychobabble.

He has about as much creedence as Pat Robertson and about the same lack of integrity.

@ RyanFries: Thank you for your insightful post.
@Danielinthelionsden: Muslim men are also subject to modest attire. Just because they don't cover as much as women do doesn't mean they don't. Allaah is the Most Wise. He knows (as well as pretty much the world) that men are more visual beings and women more emotional. This is one of the *logical* explanations why women cover up more of themselves than men do.

Furthermore, Muslim women who cover are not subjugated. It seems that no matter how many times the above statement is asserted, by however many groups of people, Muslim women are "just suffering an inferiority complex" or "they're so used to it, they don't realize they're being oppressed" or "they're victims and don't even know it." This isn't even about the burqa. This is about women *choosing* to cover themselves up, to whichever degree they deem appropriate. If a girl wants to walk around in hot pants and a bikini all day, let her. I don't see anyone encroaching on her decision to dress that way; in fact, society (mainly men) welcome it. This is how society measures her "freedom" and "self-esteem" and marvels at her "independence" (music videos attest to this, as do films). But the second someone decides to covers her hair, or her face for that matter, the world is in outrage. Why? Because you can't see her hair, she's suddenly oppressed? You can't see her face, so she must be subjugated? You can't judge her based on her shape and her looks, so her parents must force her to wear it and beat her bloody? Ridiculous.

To me, as one who *voluntarily* (though half the readers if not more will choose to disregard the word entirely) covers completely with niqab (there's a difference), it's sad to hear comments such as "You should show more skin" and "You're wearing too many clothes" or my all-time favorite "America is like a buffet. We like to see everything infront of us. Like if I have a hot girlfriend, I want to show her off..."

Sorry for rambling. It just grinds my gears.

What I don't understand is why Islamic men are not required to cover themselves as well? Is it God's commnad?

Or maybe such excessivelly "modest" attire is ugly, confining, uncomfortable, and dangerous, and maybe since men make the rules, they, they just don't want to do it.

So much for religion, and respect for God.

This is a bogus argument. I am ready, willing, and able to extend the respect that is due to religious beliefs of any kind. Bogus and contorted arguments to degrade and subjugate an entire class of people do not fall under this category.

Respect is earned, and these contorted justifications for the subjugation of women have not earned mine, and never will.

All I will grant, is that sometimes for the sake of momentary peace, it may be best to overlook these cultural idosyncracies, for example when visiting a place where such a culutre prevails.

But inwardly, how can one stop being appaled?

Currently, women throughout America enjoy the right to dress as they wish, given some limitations, under the law.Muslim women in America also have that right.

Therefore, it is their choice to dress as they please. If a Muslim woman choses to remove her veil that is her decision. If she decides to keep it on because she believes, and this is the point that all those who've commented thus far have missed, that she is following her religion by only allowing her husband, blood relatives and other women see her face, then she is making her choice.

It is not the place of non-Muslims to say what Muslim women can and cannot wear. Muslim women are not going around demanding that bikini clad women on beaches cover themselves, are they?

When you are a member of a particular religion you have the right to speak on its behalf because you believe in its doctrine, no matter how you interpret its teachings.

When you're outside of the religion you don't have that right because you neither believe in it nor understand its doctrine.

Someone who is illiterate can run around calling people to illiteracy because he/she feels its the key to happiness. But what does he/she know about the literate person? Nothing.

In conclusion, there are women who feel it is perfectly normal to wear a bikini on the beach. They were born and raised that way. And there are women who would never be caught dead in a bikini. They were born and raised that way.

Forcing women or men to dress a certain way in America is currently against the law. Therefore either the law would have to be changed or deport all Muslims, Sikhs, Jews, Nuns, Priests, Rabbis and anyone else who doesn't live up to the "ideal" dress code and life would be "perfectly homogeneous".

Western imperialism has many faces...

Deepak,

"and it's not as though the Christian world is totally free of that perspective -- as far as I know, a woman will not be permitted inside the Vatican without covering her head."

You don't do much research before running your mouth do you?

Go look at google images for St. Peter's and see that most women are in there with no head covering on random days when the photographs are taken. In this day and age, it is trivially easy to check up on that kind of incorrect assertion before you publish it.

what i find even more offensive than sarkozy's campaign against the burqa is the mandate that girls not be able to wear hijab in school. that proves that this is a statement of xenophobia, not of protecting womens' dignity.

The Burqa's are not religious they are mandated by religious extremist. There is nothing spiritual about it. Deepok, I am very saddened by your remarks, I cannot believe that you would not be able to distinguish between a 'mini skirt' and a 'burqa' It is a sign of oppression and enslavement and yes under the Taliban rule, women were shot execution style for showing an ankle! I cannot and will not believe that a little girl wearing a burqa in a classroom does so out of her 'spirituallity' it's not the TRUTH. Again, Burqa's have NOTHING to do with religion, it is a cultural thing. It is dangerous to make these kinds of statements because the history behind the Burqa's represent, oppressiveness, sexual abuse, and enslavement. I'm very disappointed in your remarks and actually kind of shocked.

Like with Athena, I'm sorry for your loss, Dr. Chopra. I caught wind somewhere out in the news that you were friends with 'M.J.'

And, no, JJ, it doesn't appear that he died of any alternative medicine, but, rather, being able to have as many pain-killers as he wanted, whatever ailed him.

Possibly some other pseudoscience played a role: living in an oxygen-rich tent, if that was as big a deal as it was said to be, can weaken your cardiopulmonary system for the outside world.

Dr. Chopra, I just saw your interview on Countdown with Keith Olbermann. I didn't realize that you were close friends with Michael Jackson. I am sorry for your loss. And I am also sorry that you never could pin him down long enough to do an intervention on him.

From Wikipedia

"History

Many Muslims believe that the Islamic holy book, the Qur'an, and the collected traditions of the life of Muhammed, or hadith, require both men and women to dress and behave modestly in public. However, this requirement, called hijab, has been interpreted in many different ways by Islamic scholars (ulema) and Muslim communities (see Women and Islam); the burqa is not specifically mentioned in the Quran."

And capturing the essence:

"Thanks alot! Oh, if only YOU and all men were compelled to wear this thing! Then, I'm sure it would be banned as inhuman...what's lawful and reasonable for one would seem entirely different if others were compelled to live with the consequences also...

Why not start wearing your own burka today in solidarity? Go ahead, we're waiting...

Posted by: educated | June 25, 2009 "

I am so disappointed that of all people, Deepak Chopra, would pit the mini-skirt against the burqa in essence 'blessing' the 'modesty' of the 'believer' in wearing a burqa vs. the 'unbeliever, the faithless, the kafir other' who wears a miniskirt.

Of all peope, this is so unreal.

This is not even arguing for the wearing of the burqa as a personal religious choice but setting up those who choose not to wear the burqa as somehow less modest, less decent, less worthy of respect.

The greatest gift that men everywhere, whether they are Muslim or not, could give their sons, teachers their students, Imans their Mosque, is to teach that men are responsible for their own sexuality and conduct regardless of whether they are looking at a barqa clad female, a female in a thong, a mini-skirt or whatever-

Sorry, Chopra, but this smacks of the 'she was asking for it' kind of reasoning from some who have been taught from birth that covered females are off-limits and non-covered females are prostitutes, can be spit on, can be called dirty words, can be violated with impunity.

Let's not go backwards, at the very least.

Hrm, 'educated,' ...you can stop spamming every thread with that, now.

Are you living in the real world? Or a protected, wealthy environment where you go to nice cocktail parties, and your kids elite schools, and all you know are other well-educated, respectful, polite folks. Come down to earth a bit and visit our other world...I cannot believe you defend the burka! How would your precious cocktail parties flow, if all the women guests were wering them, your children's school's, your workplace...go ahead, tell me!
I suppose you willingly allow any heinous practice and its expression in our public places...Is there any practice you would ban? For Heaven's sake! We forbid every inhuman thing, from cock-fighting, dog-fighting, protect every species, protect children and ban drugs that may harm...yet clothe this practice in religion and everyone it all for it. Most of these commentators will not be running into hordes of women such as these on their streets as so feel quite comfortable with the occasional apparition...Thanks alot all you high-minded folks...You are safe knowing you won't have to really live with the consequences...

"Since 9/11, Muslim dress is interpreted as a hostile statement."

So is walking around town in a ski mask.

There's Muslim dress, and then there's being forced to hide your face. These are different things.

And you know, Dr. Chopra, somehow I just don't remeber getting smacked around the neighborhood or at home for *not* wearing a miniskirt, when I was in public school.

I think if we're *really* worried about women's freedom, we could see that 'miniskirts' and burqas do the same thing.

The former, cause they ain't looking at your face, the latter cause they *can't.*