War in Iraq : Disastrous US Decision

Who knows if President Bush and the CIA, didn't listen to the fiction story backed up with pictures, false papers and documents, that was made up by the Italian SISMI 007 group, if today America would be in a war in Iraq! That SISMI group collected millions in payment for the so called top secret information, but it turned out to be false. Supposedly, Bush wanted to believe it(?). Or do you guys hide that fact. Is it too strong to let out?

Who knows if President Bush and the CIA, didn't listen to the fiction story backed up with pictures, false papers and documents, that was made up by the Italian SISMI 007 group, if today America would be in a war in Iraq! That SISM group collected millions in payment fro the so called top secret information, but it turned out to be false. Or do you guys hide that fact. Is it too strong to let out?

I have used Tillich's formulation of "god" as that which is of ultimate concern in my writings and talks. James Fowler's formulation is also useful - that center of power and meaning around which you organize your life. Both apply to everyone, so it lets those of us with a humanist understanding and those with a more traditional belief system talk productively with each other rather than past each other. Respecting each other as having "inherent worth and dignity" goes a long way towards insuring civil discussion and perhaps even the changing of minds.

I have been reading these discussions for only a few weeks, but I have noticed how seldom, if ever, the discussion continues to address the topic but degenerates to a rehash of positions for and against religion. Why anyone would waste time telling someone like Rev. Tutu that god doesn't exist is beyond me. I may not agree with his beliefs, but they have served him well and led him to have been a much more significant force for good than I have even dreamed of.

Regarding the issue under discussion, Just wars, I agree with his Rev. Tutu's position - there are just wars, but this isn't one of them. And, yes, just wars are exceedingly rare.

Do not be too quick about the war being just about oil. Without oil the entire world economy collapses, and most of us who live in cities will starve. I don't think the Iraq invasion was about oil, but if the entire region destabilizes with resultant cutting of oil exports in half or more, the oil shock of the 70's will seem like a mild cold. I think Freedman make the most sense - set a time within the year to withdraw and place a tax on gasoline high enough to make it cost $3.50 to $4.00 a gallon to force us to get serious about conservation.

The Iraq mess is purely Bush's. He has this adolesecent dream of being a second Winston Churchill alone battling a monsterous evil. The man is both stupid and incompetent, and should be gone. In a decent form of government he would have been out on a vote of NO confidence for the utter royal cock-up he has made.
Sure Saddam should have been taken out, along with a few dozen other depots and tyrants. But it was not the U.S. place to do it. The U.N. charter says states should not mess with the internal affairs of other states.
Furthermore, that crowd of miscreants (Bushes) should be charged with war crimes for Abu Ghraib and outsourcing prisoner torture, inter alia

EMM, UCA, got it.

Dear Grandfather of Soul, your gentle analogies to Hitler and fascism are right and just in this case, I fear. Nothing is beyond God's Ability to Heal. Nothing within God's Wisdom is within our undertanding before the fact, only appreciation after the fact is possible in our minds. So, I fear, but I fear not for I, as You, have Faith in God. God Bless you and yours Archbishop Tutu. God Bless our world. Please grant us your everlasting Love and Peace in Harmony and understanding of our fellow man. We express our heartfelt Love for You and beg Your forgiveness for our wicked sins so very often in Your Name Dear God...in Your Name...have Mercy please.

Thanks, EMM. My sentiments exactly, and phrased in a very clear and valid set of statements.

BGONE:

“I'm a lover of satire and sarcasm even when I'm the object.”

This statement of yours reveals a great deal. Satire and sarcasm have their place. And I’ve been accused all too often of having used them to great effect. But over the years I’ve gradually realized that my satire and sarcasm had two fatal flaws: first, they pushed people away and second, the energy behind them lay in the bubbling anger and rage that I was unable to confront within myself. Unacknowledged doubts, fears and anxieties are, I believe, at the root of our individual anger, rage, judgments and intolerance. Once I became aware of their origins, my inclination to pull these pointed barbs from my quiver was drastically reduced.

As regards your and UncannyAvenger’s discussion of faith, I’ll repost my comments from another thread:

When I use the word faith, I use it more in the context of what Paul Tillich called “ultimate concern”. Tillich defined faith as “that with which one is ultimately concerned”. In this use of the word, faith can, and frequently is, vary different than what is meant by most people. Faith can, for example, be placed in money, sex, power, reason and science (all of which from a Christian theological perspective would be idolatrous). My own paraphrasing would sound more like this: faith is what gets us up in the morning. It’s what we orientate our day around. It’s what we would hold dear in the face of life and death decisions. And it almost always becomes ritualized in some way, even if unconsciously done.

For me the difficult issues in life have to do with how we choose to live with one another and our environment. And this is where my Christian faith calls me to be loving, kind, compassionate and peaceful. As I’ve said previously, I see more hope for humankind in leaning into the winds of our mysterious personal natures, than in defending even my own transformative spiritual experiences. I’d hope to be more Christ-like than to be right about anything. I’d hope to be more loving, kind and compassionate than to justify my religion, my beliefs or even my most formative religious experiences.

And I would add that for nonbelievers, who might ask “why should I do the same?” I’d simply answer ‘because you can’. You have the choice. And by making this choice you will do more for the good of the world than all your, or my, satire and sarcasm can ever hope to achieve.

Lucas, that's as good advice as one can ever get. "Never tell a lie for you cannot repeat it" is an expression that some famous person once said. I say the lie requires continuous maintenance while the truth never changes. It's about the same thing. So you've noticed how much help, maintenance in my way of thinking the administration's story has needed and continues to get. Lies are easy to tell and impossible to defend. Your father was a smart man.

I am a man of almost fifty years, and the one saying of my father that I remembered from time immemorial, is, "Whatever you do, never begin with a lie, as all things that start with a lie are bound to fail, and when they fail, they make the whole world see you for the fool you are.

This is exactly how I view George W. Bush and the Iraq war.

Thank you Mr. Tutu. You insight is valuable. (Miles Davis dedicated his best late work to you, as I'm sure you are aware.)

This is the Bob is was critical (but respect) of you in the past.

UCA, actually I am just having fun here and laughing a lot. I'm afraid that it's impossible to disagree with someone of faith without sounding as you say. It's not intentional but I do get what sounds like the same thrown at me now and then. I really don't care. I'm a lover of satire and sarcasm even when I'm the object. Andy Rooney is my favorite TV personality, "now why do they..." Gonna dish it out then be prepared to get it back and reply, "Oh yeah, well how about..."

BGONE, I was simply stating that you obviously have faith in the resources at your website; that they are trustworthy and reputable. You act on your faith, no matter how obnoxious and toxic your methods are.

I don't understand your whole "hoax-ology" and "Devil's agents" deal, but it seems pretty circular to make sure that you come out as the only correct one in a sea of religious nuts. Religion didn't create the problems of this current war- irresponsibility, greed, and jingoistic attitudes did. Were God's words and laws listened to and applied, dare I say it would have probably been markedly different.

Uncannyavenger. I thought you said something but can't quiet make it out. Now what was that about faith again? I got faith in what?

Try faith in the wisdom of the people. In this country every elected public official puts his hand on a HOAX and swears to the bieng it represents. The people continue to demonastate their lack of wisdom, Iraq being just one example. Was it a "just cause?" Why was it code named operation "just cause?" Why are we now discussing the MORALITY of that?

The short answer is the being to whom they swear aligence is Devil. The long answer is at http://www.hoax-buster.org The people cannot be wise when they are being conned by Devil's agents. Use the Bible and I'll call you Devil's agent. That web site is the long answer to wising the people up. The question is yet to be answered. Will democracy survive Devil's assault?

There is no such thing as a just war, for wars are forced upon men and nations for reasons of survival, national or leadership interest! The war in Iraq was driven by vengeance on the part of the United States for the September 11, 2001 attacks and dictated by its global interests and access to Middle East oil. The rationale of ridding the region of weapons of mass destruction and spreading American beliefs of freedom and democracy, while noble is not primary. Nonetheless, it is in the best interest of the United States and the western world for the US-led coalition to complete its mission in Iraq. The cost of subjugation and pacification however must be economically and politically reasonable and must lead to long term stability of the region. As the cost and casulaties in Iraq escalate, a viable win-win solution must be found. To withdraw from Iraq for reasons of costs and overbearing tactical defeats will be a big blow to global peace and stability of the region. It will likewise be a disaster for the Bush administration. The war in Iraq must be won at reasonable cost. Religion will play a significant if not a complex role in this exacerbated conflict.

Among many other reasons, it is immoral that the people who decided to go to war in Iraq obviously knew nothing about the people or the country they attacked. Hence the current Worst Possible outcome, which was easy to anticipate in 2003.

By the way, how much money has been siphoned off by war profiteers with ties to the Administration? Is that why they continue this war? Now that some people are openly asking this question, my guess is that the Administration will make it very difficult to get answers on the grounds of "national security".

BGONE:

There are probably better ways to get your point across than sarcastically insulting others and pitching your website. For someone who puts a great deal of emphasis on the work and words of a website, it seems like you have a lot of... faith... in what they have to say about all things related to these posts.

Contrary to what you might think, faith is much more than "just" a belief in "God" however people may see the concept or divinity. Faith is what the substance of what you believe is true as well as what you hope will happen because of that. If you believe that religion is a farce and a hoax to be exposed, you've got to have belief in that enough to act on it. Your non-religious faith is just as potent as the faith belonging to those of us who follow a religion.

You, like everyone else, are not exempt from acting on what you believe is right or true, but I would ask that you please consider your methods in communicating your ideas, unless your intention is to hurt, denegrate, intimidate, humiliate, or provoke others into siding with you. I hope it is not.

To Archbishop Emeritus Tutu:

Thank you for weighing in on this issue. I appreciate your opinions, but I must re-emphasize Joe Carson's point: the Church and the world could benefit from you and men of your stature in the faith in taking a definite and expressed stand on behalf of the worldwide Christian community. The Bible teaches that we are all equal in God's sight and are therefore subject to His rules and principles for our lives no matter what our station in life is, world leaders included. A united and committed effort to communicate this to the American government is needed. Many Americans like myself have participated in this, but it helps to have even more help from outside the places currently under the U.S. President's jurisdiction. Thank you for your attention and advice. May God continue to bless you.

Bob, are you trying to tell us "just wars" are as hard to find as lepracons?

They, just wars and lepracons do have a lot in common, believe in one believe in the other.

Robert B, that's a no. Hoax buster is not a commercial site so that can't be. No one pays me. If you want to know the truth about the Bible, the source of faith then I can try to copy all that to here or I can send you there.

The subject here is faith. The question that immediately prompts is "faith in what." Faith begins with faith the Bible is God's word. It's proved to not be God's word at that web site. I can put the story from Exodus, Moses talking to a ball of fire here or:

I can say http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul See how that works to save me a lot of work typing what is there to read for those who care what FAITH is all about.

Maybe you have something more to say about Moses selling his soul to Devil than, "I don't believe it because I was raised thinking the Bible is God's word or something equal." That has everything significant to do with FAITH. It's not a sarcastic rant on the Bible but just another of a multitude of interpretations. If it's not so then where are the arguments other than FAITH?

Dear Bishop Tutu,

I am the co-founder and current President of the Affiliation of Christian Engineers, intended to be a virtual, worldwide, auxiliary, interdenominational professional society for Christian Engineers, to facilitate their intentionally and collectively influencing the engineering profession, at least to some degreee, to uplift it and its service to mankind and the created order, to advance God's will in and through the engineering profession.

Iraq is about oil, the fuel that runs the machines my profession created. It's quite a situation over there vis-a-vis my profession and its "fruit."

Oil revenue is used to fund Saddam's military machine, instead of more peaceable infrastructure/human resource development, a military machine largely created by my profession. That machine is used to occupy Kuwait, to get access to more oil revenue; US and other countries employ their military machines to oust Saddam from Kuwait, because the oil is the indispensable resource for the economies of these Countries.

Oil is the reason people care worldwide and they care because oil runs the machines my profession made.

Like it or not, my profession holds civilization and much of the created order here on planet earth in its hands (there are about 20 million degree engineers worldwide, making it mankind's largest and most global secular profession.)

And there is no collective and intentional Christian influence in it. Why? Because there is no treatment, by Christian theologians, as to whether there should be and Christian leaders as yourself do not call for it. Engineering does not exist only for engineers; just as Christianity does not exist only for Christians.

You, Bishop Tutu, have the influence to change this. If you and other Christian leaders and influence makers "go on record" in support of the theological contention that "Christian engineers, to at least some degree, should collectively and intentionally influence their profession to ascertain and advance God's will in and through it," (or something similar) then an organization as the Affiliation of Christian Engineers could readily have 500,000+ members, worldwide, by 2010, and be an influence to get the worldwide engineering profession to persuade governmnets, companies, institutions, people, and faith communities to advance a more sustainable and more just world.

If the engineering profession around world, including US went on record in opposition to Iraq war, unless UN approved it first, I suggest it would not have happened, as least not as it did.

Being a member of the engineering profession, which requires conscious adherence to its code of ethics (its "creed" in religious parlance) - hich is focused on public health, safety, and welfare - transcends race, religion, sex, nationality, and color, just as the issues (most of which have significant engineering components) facing mankind do.

Respectfully,

Joe Carson, P.E.
Knoxville, TN
President, Affiliation of Christian Engineers

This war has become a political embarrassment for UK and US; its pro war mongers hope to restore their super power status by doing something in Iraq. But going about it against the majority in the house, and public opinions continues to blemish itself. It is clear that the US presence in Iraq fuels a resistance and at a human consequences on innocent lives. If the insurgents don't give up, then this war shall spread and ignite maximum capacity. That means more casualties. I wouldn't be fighting a war just to save some elite’s face!

Archbishop Emeritus Desmond Mpilo Tutu thank you for all of your hard work for peace.

I personally believe that GWB started this war intentionally because his is a power hungry and egotistial man. It may sound silly to say that he wanted to finish a war he felt his father did not win by going into Bagdad and getting Saddam. Silly or not I believe this was part of his decision. I also believe he has "used" the religious right in this campaign as well.

Now it has turned into a religious war (as a smokescreen for oil)in Irag. It has also brought a religious conflict to this country where Muslims are persecuted for simply being Muslims. That sounds like a verbal religious war to me. The actual fighting is not going on in the U.S. ground but the war between Muslims and Americans is very evident. All you need to do is read Victoria's post on this website to see that war. All of the fuss over Keith Ellison taking the oath of office on the Koran is another good example.

We need to start minding our own business and stay out of other's business oil or no oil. Tell me the supposedly strongest country in the world cannot figure another way out!

Bishop Tutu

Please remember that Hitler also "believed" in a just war (as much as Bush, at least).

He rose to power as a Law and Order, anti-communist, and pro-Christian candidate who wanted to make Germany a "Christian" nation, just as Bush et al. did.

Even the Punic Wars were consider just by the Romans who did not hesitate to lie (like Bush and Hitler) about the reasons for going to war.

Beware just wars.

To BGone --

I am now fully convinced that you are an advertiser on the Hoax Buster website and are merely trolling for hits.

Complete the sentence, Jesus said, "When two or more are gathered in my name_____________________."
Bush gathered them together in the name of Jesus and they planned and executed "just cause." Chair of the joint chiefs preached at sunday services. America's pastor, Billy came and crowned George, (Billy passed his plate and Chaney loaned George money. What did they get for that money?).

Iraq has nothing to do with religion but it has everything to do with religious beliefs. Al Sadr was surrounded by Marines that could have wiped him but no. He was holed up in a mosque and allowed to go free. That's what Jesus would have done too but not Chesty "high pockets" Puller who commanded Marines in a war we won. The Japs are holed up in a shinto? Get real and get Jesus out of the war.

Now about the question. When two or more are gathered in the name of Jesus there'll be a curcifixion. And as advertised, Jesus and all the disciples will be included in a due course of time. They'll crucify Rove upside down. Did you get that?

Bishop, have you seen http://www.hoax-buster.org Everyone else has. Several times.

funny you should say that- he actually DID call it a crusade- trying to gather the warriors on a holy mission to kill the infidels- but you are right- it never was religion- it is politics and lust for power and always has been-

This is more about morality than the existence of god. Please leave the atheist rants at the door or in one of the other numerous discussions. Bush did not declare a religious "crusade" to liberate Iraq; he merely laid groundwork to frighten the American populace into supporting a blood vendetta vs. Hussein.

Organized religion makes me cringe, but the ethos of religion itself is hard to argue against. We need a set of rules to live by when we have unmitigated power and the ability to eliminate millions of lives at the push of a button....since we seem to ignore the teachings that inhibit our lust for power it’s not out of line to ask for help from a higher power!

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RELIGION AND NEVER DID-

if hindus owned the oil christians would be putting up blogs all over denouncing them-
it is POLITICS

religion is a smokescreen to mass the populous
it is politics

oh mr tutu you are agreat man but please jesus/god has nothing to do with it, she just doesnt exist. religion is the problem here and not the answer its all hokus pokus! perhaps you can help us and get bush/cheney into the worldcourt in the haque where they belong?