Near Death As A Child, I Learned Trust in God

Desmond you are an inspiration to me i am doing a reasearch about you and is learning far so much about you i hope to meet you someday i live in omaha nebraska and i go to benson high if you ever think about visiting thats were i be i have fun and caring day bye.

im a sheep i get raped by NZ peoples ahhh help me desmond tutu

just joking you are not stupid you suckjoip9

you are stupid

i rock

great life

epjimu xwgl rsodfn wsahlpgmr zbunyg amyvr fzvkq

I think that yes, God has let people die - but he can't save everyone can he? He saves some people because he can - but if he saved everyone from dying then we'd all be stuck with so many people that we can't move. Dying happens - you just have to accept that. Yes he saved Desmund Tutu and yes he lets others die - maybe because Desmond writes that book later in his life about God - He decided to save him or Desmond Tutu just got lucky and God was only watching. It's all complicated - there are so many different possibilities you just don't know. Why don't you just trust God and the doctors and hope for the best!

Bye and Peace!!!

Hi E. I agree with the Catholic Church's position that what happens after death is a mystery. It is inappropriate for men to pass judgment on the fate of others. To do so would be an example of building another tower of Babel. God is the sole judge and determinant of the fate of men.

So, unlike some of the Protestant groups, I do not believe in a baptismal "requirement" to enter heaven.

Mike, you say: “God does not kill people who have cancer, and God does not kill people in floods. The world is imperfect -- fortunately, if Christians, like the Archbishop, are correct, we will see a better, eternal world after this one.”

Tell, me Mike, what do you think happens to good, ethical religious non-Christians after they die? For instance, people whose parents raised them in another faith or people who lived in a remote region that Christian missionaries never got to.

I’m truly interested in hearing your thoughts on this and how you arrived at your conclusions.

I’ll check back here later today and tomorrow, in hopes that you respond to my message.

Reality Check, you say, "Seems like a deliberate obfuscation effort to me, but I'll let you decide."

Thanks for the tip on how to find Harris's recent essay. How did you know to find it there?

I agree - the Forum managers did a great job of trying to hide his comments - breaking with their convention on listing new essays on the main page. I suspect it was done in an effort keep Harris's remarks from stealing attention from the other esteemed, but less popular panelists.

It didn't work too well, though, did it? The main energy of the forum is over there. Here’s the link for people in a hurry: http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/sam_harris/2007/01/consciousness_without_faith_1.html

S. Heriger wrote:
"I realize that what I propose (focusing our collective will) isn't possible. Nonetheless, I feel we absolutely should work on the problem as though we can solve it."

I certainly agree that we should work on the problem. Where I suspect we differ is on *how* to work on the problem. I don't expect any magical help, and I've never seen any sign of it aiding anyone's efforts - no one yet has solved it.

If your plan includes converting more of the world's land to agriculture, that isn't a plan that I could support. We're destroying animal habitat at a rate that sends many species spiraling toward extinction every year. Maybe a planet full of well-fed humans and no other species apart from maybe some food animals is appealing to you, but it's not a world I'd want to live in. We're also destroying the rainforest that has a major impact on our climate and the oxygen we breathe. And whatever increase in agricultural output we manage to achieve will be worthless in a short time, as the world's population doubles and redoubles in ever shorter periods of time.

In short, if birth control isn't at least *part* of the solution, then there is no solution.

Everyone loves to point to Mother Teresa and all of the wonderful work she did and the sacrifices she made. But I just see someone pushing the Catholic faith, which prohibits birth control, in a region where to do so really ought to be criminal.

I'm sorry that my final sentence seemed condescending to you, but you have no idea how frustrating it is for a realist to be confronted with this wide-eyed piety that believes that God will take care of everything. He hasn't for all these centuries, and I see no sign that he's changing his ways now. There are people who say "God will provide" dying of hunger every day.

I thank the Archbishop for his story. I had the privilege of seeing him in person when he came to my university a few years ago.

I recently completed a course of chemotherapy for cancer. The cancer was in the most advanced stage, and I frequently thought about death. Like the Archbishop, I had a similar encounter with God. This encounter was beyond words.

A few months ago sat with Jesuit Cardinal Avery Dulles. Our conversation was wide ranging, and he said something obvious yet profound that many of the those posting comments should consider: that God created a world that is not perfect.

The physical laws that cause cancer are the same laws that allowed human beings to evolve. The physical laws that allow rainfall to, in part, provide food to animals and people are the same laws that cause floods.

God does not kill people who have cancer, and God does not kill people in floods. The world is imperfect -- fortunately, if Christians, like the Archbishop, are correct, we will see a better, eternal world after this one.

Hello again E.

Harris has posted his essay on the current question titled "Consciousness Without Faith". It was posted yesterday. There are quite a few NoGodders over there posting.

Don't look under "All Panelist Responses" It's not there. Go to "All On Faith Panelists" and look up Sam Harris. Hope you enjoy.

Seems like a deliberate obfuscation effort to me, but I'll let you decide..

"Anonymous" asked for this forum to publish essays by Harris and Dawkins.

They have done it -- check under "past questions" and look for "Atheism is enjoying a certian vogue...."

S. Heriger, you say:

"I was simply expressing my point of view (the point of these forums), not suggesting everyone run out and covert."

I understand that and am glad you're here expressing your point of view. And when you say, "When we begin to do God's will, He always steps in and becomes involved" it sounds more like an assertion than a point of view -- i.e. – telling us what God ALWAYS does. I don’t understand how you or anyone would know that.

I don't want to have an argument and I certainly don't mean to insult you, but I in the spirit of open dialogue, I do want to tell you how it came across to me.

It’s unfortunate that these conversations invariably dwindle to a bitter squabble between the haves and have-nots.

On the one side we have those who have blind faith and the opposing camp consists of those with blind lack of faith. While the battle continues, this farce of a civilization we’ve achieved sinks deeper and deeper into its hypocritical quagmire. Our pretence of intelligence is increasingly confronted with the reality of our inability to heal the festering wounds and ills of humanity.

We humans have tragically lost the cord that tethers us to the fundamentals of life. It is categorically impossible for our feeble minds to accept the mystery and get on with the task at hand, to live a noble life and work to bring light into this world.

I you approach life with gratitude, as Desmond Tutu, it's easier to live a life of fullfillment (from which others will benefit). If you approach it with a "what's in it for me?"-attitude chances are you'll never be able to achieve much to help yourself or others. Seems to me that's the testimony of bishop Tutu.

To reflect on the human course, and human behavior; it may become evident it is as S. HERIGER describes,--the "collective WILL"--that matters; that identifies the nature of God's help; and holds the key to our happiness.

By conscious nature each person wants the other to 'think as he does'. This leads to conformity; evident in local community, cultural or occupational styles;--to coercion by religions, or political 'isms'. The reason for this tendency to conform could be 'there really is ONE CONSCIOUSNESS of humanity'! We hold the same basic physical and emotional needs;--so should be of one overall mind.

The culprit interfering with this truth seems individual separation in the spheres of time, place and person. A body automatically forms an environmental,--or physical mind. An individual mind is relative to era and experiences; geographic location; and physiology. No two people are exactly equal in these areas;--so, no two physical minds are the same! Our course suggests the TRUE mind remains buried under millions of different realities;--or individual worlds formed by local environmental conditions.
When we look at these 'outside-in';--or physical realities; we see they all---like the world they copy---offer only temporary gain, or pleasure; eventually fall;--for the individual, or a nation.

Our American ancestors had no blueprint;--but placed their TRUST in God. Believed in temporary sacrifice; for everlasting happiness. That we became prolific should not be an enigma. The American difference was in allowing energy to flow---like in all living things---from the inside-out! We focus on the democratic format, but may overlook its success was relative to a "collective WILL" expressed in IDEALS as equality, truth, peace, freedom, compassion, personal worth, life and justice. These conscious energies composed the 'soul' of America; were the source of our strength; surmounted all physical obstacles--beginning with victory over a far more knowledgable and powerful British Empire.

Of interest is when conformity was to this "collective will";--to personal character maturation through prayer to a God of love;--when vision came from a common place deep within personal thought;---a compatible DIVERSITY emerged;--that evoked an ascent like no other period in human existence!

It may be no accident our most astounding area of technological progress surrounds communication. "To share thought" is our means of growth. Consciousness is the living, growing thing in our midst. "To come together in thought" seems an instinctive direction.

All human suffering could be relative to conscious separation from each other;---and God!

Pam,

You're probably familiar with this, but if not, it's an enlightening resource:

http://www.earthinstitute.columbia.edu/endofpoverty/

I realize that what I propose (focusing our collective will) isn't possible. Nonetheless, I feel we absolutely should work on the problem as though we can solve it. I'd continue the discussion, but I don't see how it would be constructive after reading your last sentence, which stooped to condescension. Best of luck of your life's journey.

E. Favorite,

If you believe it's all about hard work, drive and luck meeting opportunity, and you get out there and work for it, then I applaud you. I just like to see people get involved with the problem in spite of the overwhelming odds against them. I certainly don't expect everyone to approach it from a faith-based perspective as I do, and I respect anyone's choice to approach it any way they choose. I was simply expressing my point of view (the point of these forums), not suggesting everyone run out and covert.

Best wishes...

Wow, there's alot of bitter people around these parts. The whining is incredible - wah wah wah, people die so God doesn't exist, wah wah wah.

S. Heriger, you say:

"I know from experience that when you begin to tackle a seemingly insurmountable problem such as human suffering with all your mind, body and soul, you suddenly discover that help starts arriving from the most unexpected sources."

I've noticed that too, but unlike you, I don't assume that it's because "When we begin to do God's will, He always steps in and becomes involved."

I've thought it was from a combination of drive and luck and people finally noticing my cause because I'm getting the word out about it. I've also noticed sometimes even incredible determination doesn't get me what I want. Still, even in a failed effort, there's often a valuable, unexpected lesson to be learned.

You also say, “If you don't believe in God, then it's completely illogical to blame Him….”

I don’t think non-believers are blaming God; but they might be blaming some PEOPLE who say they believe in God, but whose faith doesn’t translate into compassion or good works for humanity.

S. Heriger,
We will have to agree to disagree on the protein issue. I realize that you wern't talking about a redistribution - such a thing isn't possible. That was a hypothetical.

I wasn't disagreeing about the lack of a collective will; rather, I was trying to point out that it will always be lacking. You say you've lowered your standard of living by 75%, but you typed your reply on a computer. That's not low enough. I've been to Africa and India - I've seen just how low a living standard can go.

Americans are quite addicted to their (I agree) obscenely greedy lifestyle. Do you realize what proportion of the world's population is living in abject poverty? To raise all those people to even a minimal standard - a roof over their heads and 3 squares a day (including adequate protein, assuming that that's possible) would mean a *drastic* reduction in the American (and European) standard - not just giving up iPods. You'll never make it happen voluntarily. Not on your own, not with the help of your imaginary friend.

Pam,

I respectively disagree with you on the protein issue. I did my homework before I made that statement. It's a concern that has to be addressed in a solution, but it's also a fixable one. I wasn't suggesting we simply redistribute what we currently have, but work collectively to create a functional solution to solve the problems.

Also, you say: "To raise the standard of living all over the world to that of America would take the resources of 4 planet Earths."

I never suggested for one minute that we raise the standard of living to match that of America. In fact, I'm appalled by the idea of doing that. I simply stated that we collectively lack the will to do much about the problem, which is absolutely true. In fact, you completely supported my statement about our lack of collective will when you stated: "To raise the standard of living in places such as India and China means lowering the standard (considerably!) in America. Why do you think the rest of the world hates us? Are you willing to give up most of what you have?"

The answer is yes, I will. In fact, I already have. I've downsized my life by nearly 75% over the past few years in terms of consumption of goods, resources and products I don't need, and my "standard of living" has improved drastically. The fact that most Americans, and especially many who call themselves Christians, don't want to do that is ample evidence that we lack the collective will to address problems elsewhere. Solving the problem requires some sacrifice by the more fortunate. That's us. It's part of the equation. And as I've stated, we lack the collective will to do so. When we immediately begin coming up with reasons why we can't do it, no matter how practical they sound, we're supporting the original statement I made.

Should we "lower" the standard of living here in America? I don't know what you mean by "lower" but I do think we live a horribly overstuffed lifestyle here. We are about 8% of the world's population and we consume about 70% of its natural resourses. This is a travesty. It is gluttony of the highest order. If lowering the standard of living means coming to terms with the self-centeredness of our soul-numbing consumer culture that tells us that we need to own as much crap as possible, cutting down on consumption of resourses, bringing the needs of others to the forefront of our minds, then I'm all for it. I also submit that most Americans aren't, which is exactly what I mean by lacking the collective will.

With all due respect, your argument only proved my point. In spite of the odds, and in spite of the sacrifices, we must do whatever we can. That's why I belive in God. I know from experience that when you begin to tackle a seemingly insurmountable problem such as human suffering with all your mind, body and soul, you suddenly discover that help starts arriving from the most unexpected sources. When we begin to do God's will, He always steps in and becomes involved. That's a confirmation of my faith. As Martin Luther said, "Pray like it all depends on God, then get to work like it all depends on you." You just might be amazed what happens.

Peace

Mt. TuTu:

Thank you for sharing your story, for looking past the nasayers and for continuing in your faith. God works through people like yourself, although in most cases, through those with much lower offices in life. Regardless, God Bless, and, despite the earlier reponse, continue your focus upon speaking the truth rather than projection.

DEAR MR TUTU

i think you are a great man but please next time you are on tv try to speak so we can understand what the hell you are talking about!
say it loud say it proud but dont mumble!

It is a pity Peter M didn't grasp what the Archbishop said. I am privileged to have shaken your hand Archbishop when you visited Jamaica. To this day you are one of dwindling number of men of the cloth in whom I have great trust and admiration.

I request Washington Post to publish articles by atheists such as Richard Dawkins and Sam Harris instead of merely giving these religious charlatans monopoly over the religion and god qustion.

Dear Archbishop Desmond Tutu:
Thank you for all you have done for humanity. I do not share your religious beliefs and I will simply keep God out of the discussion of life and death in that hospital. The unbelievers are not criticizing your god for all of the human sufferings and injustices in this world. But when a believer states that “it was as if God was assuring me” while others were dying, they raise a question, “What kind of god do you believe in?” Of course we will never hear from other 14 year-old boys and girls who may have had a similar conversation with their god, but they died anyhow. Once again thank you for your humanity. May we also thank the physicians who are trying to reduce human suffering.

So Mr. Tutu's god decided to save Mr. Tutu but not the thousnads of children who died in the tsunamis.

I ask Mr. Tutu.

Is such a god worth worshipping?????

Dr.Radhakrishan, twentieth century philosopher had said in his book Idealist View of Life,we don't know what is begining nor ending, but we do have to live the life in between, so instead of being tormented by the question of purpose in life etc. why not dream a little and add joy to our lives, So if one enjoys his aetheism or any other ISM and accept each one of us has this task and symphathise with each other we may find a little comfort in our struggle.

S. Heriger writes:
"In this world today we absolutely have the resources, the money and the means to ensure that every single person on this planet is properly fed, clothed and sheltered. Every single one, without exception. The problem is that those of us in a position to help—-the wealthy countries, and all the individuals who live in them, such as you and I—-lack the collective will to fix the problem."

Sadly, this simply isn't true. If there were some way to evenly distribute all of the world's food supplies among all of the world's people tomorrow, each of us would have the *calories* we need, but all would be protein deficient - resulting in the condition known as kwashiorkor. Africa is all too familiar with this condition.

To raise the standard of living all over the world to that of America would take the resources of 4 planet Earths.

To raise the standard of living in places such as India and China means lowering the standard (considerably!) in America. Why do you think the rest of the world hates us? Are you willing to give up most of what you have?

The best answer to the problem of world hunger, disease, and low living standards is birth control. But this is something that most Christians fight tooth and nail, and that's one of the main reasons that those of us who are non-believers are afraid of the encroachment of religion in politics and public policy.

O, poor Desmond.

I like your humanistic point of view, so far. I thought you're smart, man.

But then when I read your sentence "I can’t explain it adequately but a wonderful calm descended over me and it was as if God was assuring me, what I don’t know." about your experience when you were only 14 years old in the hospital, I was disappointed. You're no different than the uneducated common people in dealing with what you experienced in your childhood!

You wrote it now when youre already an old man, but pretend that you're still 14 yrs old? Poor Dismond. Get rid off those naive and immature thought, man! Be a mature man, with mature contemplative thought and idea. Forget what you think you thought when you're teenager. Be free from those idiotic teenager of yours, man! It was a trap of narcistic selfworshipness! Poor Dismond!

Atheists criticise people like Archbishop Tutu because they do not understand. Just because a person dies does not mean God doesnt love them. Atheists like Ashley beleive that life on Earth is the only thing that matters, when in fact it is just the begining. And for all the people who died in the tsunami, for example, they are lucky because most of them are probably experiencing eternal happiness with God in Heaven.

Dear Archbishop Tutu

Thank you for sharing the personal episode in your life which struck a deep chord in me - the act of complete surrender based on implicit trust. You had the kind of faith in God at 14, that I do not have today, in spite of my lifelong journey. My complete laziness for long periods of time probably explains part of it. My trials do not make me lose faith in God, but I do not surrender with trust in the beautiful way you described. Thank you for inspiring me to start my faith journey all over again today, starting with complete surrender to God based on implict trust.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

I applaud Bishop Tutu for sharing his story. To question God's purpose is to assume you're of superior mind. To reject God and yet question His motives lets all the air out of your argument. To accept His will is the first step of faith.

I notice that most of the skeptics and critics all ask the same general question..."Why would a loving God would allow such atrocities as starvation, disease, and genocide?" It’s a fair question, but the answer has always been with us...and willfully ignored because few want to own up to the responsibility that comes with hearing it.

Why would a loving God allow such a thing to happen? Only in my Christian faith can I find a satisfactory answer, an answer that has been provided to us in the second chapter of Genesis. And it’s in the answer that we learn that we’ve been asking the wrong question all along.

The right question, the proper question, should be, “Why do WE allow it to happen?”

How quickly we forget that God has made us stewards of the Creation. We are our brothers’ keepers in every sense of the term. When we reject God and blame Him for pain and suffering, we also reject our responsibility to do something about it. A tremendous portion of the pain and suffering in the world is entirely preventable, yet we lack the collective will to do anything about it.

In this world today we absolutely have the resources, the money and the means to ensure that every single person on this planet is properly fed, clothed and sheltered. Every single one, without exception. The problem is that those of us in a position to help—-the wealthy countries, and all the individuals who live in them, such as you and I—-lack the collective will to fix the problem. We’re too wrapped up in our own lives to look death and evil in the eye and commit to fighting it in a collective effort. We’re content to let it have it’s way elsewhere in the world, just as long as it stays out of our backyard, just as long as it stays out of sight in some country that’s too far away to worry about, just as long as we can stay plugged into our iPods and carve out our own little chunk of affluence and personal space.

We have no control over tsunamis, earthquakes and other natural disasters, but we can control the reponses to the pain and suffering they cause. Blaming God is simply a way of ducking any responsibility for helping your fellow man in a time of need.

Let's stop blaming God. If you don't believe in God, then it's completely illogical to blame Him, and it's time that you accept some responsibility for working toward a solution rather than criticizing from the sidelines. If you do belive in God, then it's time to get to work.

Peace...

Although Archbishop Tutu is an influential political figure, I am convinced he was writing to convey his personal experience with God, not for any political purpose. However, I also believe that if you try hard enough not to think of yourself, you will find the same calmness in life as in death.

And the Prophet Muhammad PBUH said, "Trust in God, but also tie up your camels".

I do apologize…the link above has a typo.

Peace,
www.alfa8.com

My dear fellows, we’re all traveling between the mysteries of birth and death. We’re all living the great mystery of life, where every moment, every child, every breath is a miracle.

Whether one’s creed is in the myth of science or the myth of religion, whichever path it maybe, one thing is obvious: that we still have no answers. The only choice before us is Faith.

I think Bishop Tutu refers to his faith in his humanity and his divinity. That he chose to have trust in the mystery, without prejudice, and to accept the miracle of his life and his moments. I invite you to trust in the miracle that has enabled you to read this post and rise to your divinity as Bishop Tutu has done.

It's really sad that some atheists and naysayers have nothing better to do except carp and snipe at the genuine spiritual experiences of others.

Dear Bishop Tutu:

You have always exemplified the best of what the Christian tradition and humanity offers. Your succinct and thoughtful narrative has simply reinforced that view. Thank you for sharing it.

I always liked the following quote:

“When the missionaries came to Africa they had the Bible and we had the land. They said, 'Let us pray.' We closed our eyes. When we opened them we had the Bible and they had the land.” -- Bishop Desmond Tutu

Thank you Bishop Tutu. Your story shows just how the adversities we face can be our "gift" to others. Tuberculosis was truly a gift to you. How we come to grips with hardships we face can not only shape our own lives but also have effects on many others. Your experience of God at the moment you faced death has made it possible for many millions to receive blessings that you will only know when you join God in his Kingdom.

Peace be with you!

Archbiship Tutu isnt saying he knows why some people die and others dont guys!

He's just grateful for the time he got afterward adn saw it as a gift. He isnt saying HE deserves it! Hence the word GIFT.

I mean, would you rather he give you an empty theological discourse on death and dying?

God is real and present on Earth and he is always watching over us no matter what. Even if we do die, if we beleive in him or believe in what is rightous then he will always protect us right even into death. This is what I believe this great man meant.

Why do we even talk about faith in God? In my belief, Deism, faith isn't part of believing because God is as real as the earth under my feet. Faith, by definition, is the lack of doubt and so it creates a polarity - each person is supposedly somewhere between the pole - either faithful or doubtful.

But the polarity of doubt/faith is just noise. All that is is what we can sense and cause and effect tells us that there was a beginning, a first cause, sometime in the past. God is the First Cause. Not doubt possible and no faith required.

Bishop Tutu found a calmness that was given to him by the Creator through the eons of evolution. Regardless of if it was the magical wave of God's hand or the passage of time that made his calmness possible it helped him through his hardest day and set a path for his life that has made the entire world better.

What can possibly be wrong with that?

With complete respect (for your political courage, not your irrational belief system), when faced with the realization of death, you discovered the real power of humanity in the 100,000-year old process of evolving social consciousness. That is quiet enough to make you human -- no "god" or external force is necessary.

Thank you for your lifetime efforts to advance the humanity of all of us.

Being an African I can relate to Desmond Tutu's testimonial. Children who have been maimed, mutilated in vicious wars still manifest hope and faith in God: Unlike in the West where materialism,lust or greed are real demons that have imprisoned many. Don't tell a Westerner about faith in God when he has no pension, life insurance or a sizeable bank account. The tangible resonates more than the intangible or abstract. Perception equals conviction so goes the popular tune.
bankole@mindspring.com

The depth of offendedness at God's truths is amazing. TRUTH IS ALWAYS TRUTH - whether or not you believe or receive it as truth does not make it any less truth. Even satan believes in God he just REJECTS HIM because he wants to be greater. There is only ONE WAY TO GOD and that is through His Son Jesus Christ - WHO IS VERY MUCH ALIVE and as close as your very heartbeat. He IS your every heartbeat. As for why many suffer, God's ways are not our ways. Intimate relationship with Christ is NOT A RELIGION and He reveals His ways to those who care to seek Him! False "religions", however, follow/worship dead leaders. Jesus is the only one who is ALIVE. He LOVES YOU and your hatred does not offend Him - He will reveal Himself to you whenever you are truly ready - He is a mere whisper away, all you have to do is call on Him!

Considerations relative to the comments by Ashley and Peter:

The physical world in its natural state is compatible to human emotional needs. Much literaure, art, poetry and music surround our aesthetic experiences.

However, the physical world holds intermittent deleterious motions that overpower the natural state, and cause devestation; be it a predator; a war; disease; injury; earthquake, or tsunami. Our course suggests these events are incompatible. Because overall direction is to reveal the necessary physical and behavioral principles, and release the human ingenuity to develop the technological means to escape from
harm.

The body machine automatically delivers environmental images to the invisible person,--or SELF. The most basic need of each invisible person,--or SELF is happiness. That an organism be compatible with its environment is a basic biological principle. That the natural state of our environment is compatible; and deleterious actions are not; could suggest this negativity; the actions which overpower, and bring things to an end is foreign;---was not part of our original environment!

It could be God created a beautful world intended for our happiness. Then the creation was changed. It is thought that moves the body. Our 'God' surely would not be a lone existence in this other believed dimension beyond our awareness. Another consciousness greater than ours could be responsible for the change. Natural laws are steadfast. The only way out of our predicament would be to acquire the necessary knowledge to improve communication, prevent catastrophe and restore a perfect world.

We prayed; and moved toward reaching such an eventual compatibility!

As to why one person survives, and another does not:
I believe God created nature; that these negative motions were not part of the original creation; but nature operates through steadfast laws which can't be changed; making individual fate dependent on particular position in the spheres of time, place and person. However from a common place deep within personal thought a supernatural energy can be realized, and released that can surmount all physical obstacles. That this is possible for an individual, and has been exemplified by humanity; in that after just a rudimentary effort to 'come together in thought'
we seemed capable of unlimited eventualities!

The difference between these miracles on an individual basis, and for humanity seems that where almost all of the individuals as Desmond Tutu credit God; and proceed to make our world a better place; human authorities credit human intelligence, and usurp the knowledge.

Yes, Tutu. And 6 million slaughtered Jews trusted god too. What a kind and trustworthy friend he is.

But it's wonderful that at least he made you "feel calm." What more proof to we need that there's a god? Bishop Tutu feels calm! Yay!!!

ARCHBISHOP TUTU
so simply put and so powerful-
your complete submission to god and your constant selfless service to humanity is its own testament

your life itself is all the proof anyone who doubts needs about the proof of god-

i had the great blessing of preceeding the bishop with a poem on freedom at the duke university chapel in the 80s at a protest against aparthied

i went to my first seder there- and the bishop was an angel of light and it is one of the most memorable of experiences

i had forgotten all about it but even the distant memory of his compelling speech is inspiring right this minute

btw he was successful- the interests of duke were divested in south africa

a lifetime of light he has lived

how could anyone possibly criticize him?

To everyone who reads this:

God loves every single one of you even if you don't believe in him. We will continue to love you until your life does not exist anymore.

God Bless

For those of a negative mindset (trolls) who are ridiculing (flaming) Archbishop Tutu, you have poor reading comprehension.

What he told God was: "God if I’m going to die, that’s okay; if not, that’s okay too."

He never said God saved him and didn't save others. After his prayer a calm descended over him, because either way it was not in his control to die or not and he could leave his worries elsewhere.

So because he did not die, each day was a "bonus" to him because he had the gift of life where so many had not received it and, as can be seen in his works, he has tried to share that gift with others.

People, religious or not, can recognize how precious life is.

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall see God". Indeed, Bishop Tutu shall certainly see Him.

I have read several posts that said the calm came to Bishop Tutu as a result of his acceptace of his fate. I must disagree with you. The Bishop's calm came from Christ who is the "Prince of Peace" and gives us a "peace that passes all understanding". If not, how can he have any peace when the unknown of death stared him in the face? If you do not know God, what do you expect when you die? I believe Bishop Tutu realized that if he died then, he would be with God and that gave him peace. A certainty of where your eternal desination is gives you peace.

speaking as an atheist

I think David, just above, has truly spoken the word of God.

A compassionate, spiritual, smart statement of belief in a kind of dialog and a kind of honest and mature search for Truth.

thank you David.

Susan: Thanks for your insight and deep-thought. Unlike cynics and negative commentators like Ashley and Peter M. you got it right. The repected Archbishop Tutu was not saying that he was better than all those who have died unjustly or through disasters such as Tsunami. He was just saying that the experience solidified his trust in God.

His take is analogous to that of Jesus Christ when he was about to be unjustly crucified and he pondered that if God was willing he should let the cup (the agony of death) be allayed. Eventually, he said "Thy will be done, not mine." This is TRUST or FAITH in God.

And if I may hasten to say that the ultimate hope of a Christian is that after his bodily death comes eternity of his soul in the Kingdom of Heaven. Thus, regardless of how peaceful, agonizing or violent one's death is, death is ultimately inevitable and for us Christians it is that hope of eternity that sustains us.

I must also hasten to say as well that the life of a Christian is a journey. Being a Christian does not mean that we do not struggle with many of the sinful trappings of the world. However, we have the blessing of the Holy Spirit that walks, talks, counsels, helps and lifts us up when we fail and fall.

Of course, all these are foolishness to the stonehearted who refuses to believe (I Corinthians 1:18) and thus chooses the path of perishing.

Go on the most reverent Tutu, keep on spreading the Word and teaching the faith and thank you for being exemplary.

One common theme that's been suggested by a number of non-believers is to suggest that either does not exist, or cannot be just, because even though Archbishop Tutu lived, others died.

This oversimplifies the Christian faith. First, we understand that death is part of the natural order created by God. Christianity believes that God's purpose for us is much more than an undending existance in our current bodies, making the house payment and cutting the grass into eternity.

Second, Christians understand the world to be a war zone, with active conflict between good and evil. Like any other war zone, some people are heroic, others are cowardly, some are shell-shocked, some are casualties.

Let's face it - if every prayer were answered, no one would ever get sick, no one would ever grow old, and no one would ever die. But God nowhere promises that - and it's inconsistent with his purposes as we understand them. Our world is an arena in which we can use free will to make moral choices that have eternal consequences. It's not an eternal, child-safe theme-park. All of our lives will come to an end, one way or another ("none of us are getting out of this thing alive").

There is much evil in the world, and bad things happen. We can expect nothing else, until God decides to bring history to a close.

God never promises, nor should we expect, for Him to prevent every evil thing that might otherwise happen.

Archbishop Tutu alludes to this, when he says "[s]o every moment thereafter has been a bonus for me!" God could choose, for His own purposes, to intervene in the Archbishop's case. Doing so does not imply that anyone else was less worthy, or that the Archbishop would not face disease and death at another time.

God's will for us involves something greater than living through a particular illness.

I have been reading this thread with some disappointment, because--as some others have said--people are talking past each other. I think there are some things we all agree on:

1. Desmond Tutu is a remarkable man who has had a profoundly positive influence on peace, most especially in his native South Africa, but also elsewhere.

2. It is indeed fortunate that he survived the TB he suffered in his youth; the world is a better place for it.

3. It is important to behave on this earth in a way that makes life better for others, whether that be only a few people close to you or whether that be millions of people; and in a way that doesn't make life worse for anyone.

4. We are not sure whether Archbishop Tutu was claiming that his God calmed him or his acceptance that it would be OK if he lived and OK if he died that calmed him.

We may also all agree that Mr. Crossan's post was not easy to understand.

Clearly, we do not all agree on what "God" means and whether there exists, in some objective sense, any "God" at all.

How can we make something productive come of these agreements and disagreements?

I am going to ask for one small step here to start, and that is for everyone's agreement that their beliefs are subject to polite, but probing, investigation. Let me explain. I am a scientist: that is my job and my life's work. Like other scientists, I seek to understand the way the world works, both the so-called "natural" world and the human world. My chosen line of work and my own experience lead me to use an evidence-based approach; what I have evidence for, I believe; what I don't have evidence for, I don't believe. (That doesn't mean I necessarily reject it, I just necessarily don't believe it.) People who believe in some kind of anthropomorphic or active God as opposed to "an essence", even an Intelligent Designer who started things in motion but then stepped back, are making powerful claims about the way the world works, and hence it is part of my job as a scientist to investigate those claims.

I freely offer any and all of my beliefs about the way the world works for your investigation and challenge. I ask you to offer me the same courtesy. And it is crucially important, because people's actions based on their religious beliefs about the way the world works are profoundly affecting such things as education, foreign policy, environmental policy, tax policy, other people's lives, and so on. I hate to think about how many people have been killed in the name of religious belief. Since those policies and actions affect all of us, it is our right to investigate the beliefs that influence them.

David

If Mr. Tutu had said that in the midst of his illness, he looked down at the ground, saw a rock, asked the rock to help him, and found peace doing so, you'd get about a dozen responses calling him insane and no one rushing to defend him.

But because he looked to the sky and said "God" instead of "rock", we get many more responses, each one attesting to the "truth" and "faith" of the others.

We get stories about "missing something" and the accountability and the potential death and destruction after we die. We get Biblical quotes and appeals to Hinduism, and statements that after all, some people "just don't get it."

And sadly, this is what passes for religious discourse. Enjoy it.

To Billfleisch:

In answer to your question: "Can someone tell me why," I practice Nicheren Buddhism and here is something I hope helps. Please note, I am not trying to convert or convince anybody, but I hope this helps:

Buddhism, however, teaches the eternity of life; that we have lived countless lives already. This means that we are not born as blank pages, but pages on which countless impressions have already been made. According to Buddhism, life is forever existing in the cosmos; sometimes it is manifest and sometimes latent. Just as when we sleep and then awaken; our conscious mind awakens and our body feels refreshed. Between the sleeping and awakening, our consciousness carries on in a sub-conscious state. Similarly one's life continues eternally in alternating states of life and death. Death is as much a part of living as sleep is part of the process of living.

Karma is thus the accumulation of effects from the good and bad causes that we bring with us from our former lives, as well as from the good and bad causes we have made in this lifetime, which shapes our future. Karma is a Sanskrit word that means 'action'. Karma is created by actions - our thoughts, words and deeds - and manifests itself in our appearance, behavior, attitudes, good and bad fortune, where we are born or live - in short, everything about us. It is all the positive and negative influences or causes that make up our complete reality in this world.

Unlike some other philosophies though, Buddhism does not consider one's karma or destiny to be fixed; since our minds change from moment to moment, even the habitual and destructive tendencies we all possess to varying degrees can be altered. In other words, Buddhism teaches that individuals have within themselves the potential to change their own karma.

All that we do in one lifetime affects the negative and positive balance of our karma. For example, if we are born poor in this lifetime and spend our life giving to others whatever we can give, we are making causes to change the negative karma of being poor. On the other hand, if we spend our life envying or hating or even stealing from others, we are adding to our negative balance of karma.

Good for you, but if you are so sure, then don't preach to others, let them chose without the patronizing attitude that assumes you know better.

I don't mean to be offensive, and I appreciate the challenges and pain you've gone through. I am quite aware of the fraility of my body and the precious wonder life is, but it is offensive to assume your faith lets you know how others should live or believe. But I am happy for you if it has given you peace and purpose.

I wish you everything wonderful with your faith. Don't confuse faith with knowledge, and don't patronize others with your beliefs.

One thing I admire about atheists is their willingness to think long and hard about the existence of God. In many cases, I believe they give God much more serious thought than believers do. As a Christian, I of course disagree with their conclusions. But by all means, I encourage all atheists to keep asking the hard questions and to keep searching. Because the Good News is, the faster you try to runaway, the more likely it is that God's grace will catch you. And when that happens, you'll find the peace and understanding that God has wanted you to have all along.

God bless all of us,

"My first son, Andy, was just getting old enough to ask questions about God. At the time, I was asking myself, what if I'm wrong in my belief, in whole or in part? What should I tell him?" This is from the liner notes to John Tirro's first inspirational CD, Journey to the Jordan. Below are the lyrics to the song he wrote in response to his own question.

I can build you a strong defense for the hope that's in me.
I can list you the arguments for the way I see this world.
I can offer the evidence of what I've felt in my life.
I can hand you the books that help my faith to survive.
But nothing I can say, nothing I can do
Can make the message seem true to you

Only God can give you reasons to believe.
Only God can give you reasons to believe.

I can state you a case for prayer as a meditation.
I can point you to nature and the order it reveals.
We can talk of the ways that love has a mind of its own
And debate our conclusions based on logic alone.
But if it's only you and me here making sense
Nothing's proven but coincidence

Why is it so hard to hear?
Why would the Creator's voice be small and still?
Are we afraid He won't be there?
Or afraid He will?
Or maybe we're afraid to be deceived,
Maybe we're afraid to be deceived."

Like John says, "Nothing I can say, nothing I can do, can make the message seem true to you. Only God can give you reasons to believe!"

Entrusting your life to God -- it's also called faith -- is a profoundly personal experience. It happens differently for each person. I was a practicing member of the same faith community John belongs to, but I'm not sure how much faith I actually had. I'm pretty used to being in control. I've been gifted with considerable abilities as an organizer, manager, and teacher, along with a fair amount of intelligence. There's not much I can't do if I put my mind to it.

But then my gastrointestinal track started acting up about 10 or 12 years ago. Undaunted, I did everything my GI and my primary care physician recommended. At times, things settled down, but the "quiet" times got shorter and shorter, and the length and seriousness of my periods of non-control started to run together. I was a prisoner in my own home and totally at a loss as to what to do to regain control of my GI track. In tears, I turned it over to God. That was April of 2002.

Wouldn't it be lovely to tell you that God answered my prayer -- promptly and with the solution I wanted! Would that prove the existence of God to any of you?! I doubt it. What actually happened was my "problem" continued to spiral downward, getting progressively worse and worse. Mid-August of 2002, I was admitted to the hospital -- unconscious, bleeding from my rectum, with no bowel control, and septic. I was so weakened that my GI and the surgeon did not believe I would survive surgery, but they went ahead and operated, removing all of my large intestine and creating a new exit for my solid waste in my lower right abdomen. It's called an ileostomy, and in my case, it is permanent. Of all the "cures" God could have given me, this was the one I did NOT want!!! To this day, I have issues with managing my stoma, but I just keep on trucking.

This is where John's question, "Why would the Creator's voice be small and still?" came into play! The psalmist wrote, "Be still and know that I am God." Until that point in my life, I had been so busy managing my own life -- and others as well -- that I couldn't hear God's still, small voice calling me to peace -- His peace. Everyone had expected me to die -- but I didn't! Who knows why I survived. I believe God wasn't ready for me yet -- or I wasn't ready for Him.

I believe each of us is here on Earth to share God's peace and love in our own uniquely individual way -- and I hadn't done my bit yet. In the frequent quiet and solitude of my two months in the hospital -- and the many months of recovery that followed, I had plenty of time to hear God's voice -- and sometimes I even listened.

Somewhere along the way, I learned to trust God with my life -- I learned faith. Slowly, too, I learned what my vocation was, and now I'm pursuing it. I have entrusted my life to God, and I feel an incredible peace. I do not fear death, for I know my physical death will unite me with the Creator of the Universe and my Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ.

God is your almighty Father, who loves you with a boundless, unending love. He wants only what is best for each of us -- but He also gave us free will, and sometimes the choices we make aren't the best, so we suffer the consequences.

But then again, "Nothing I can say, nothing I can do, will make the message seem true to you." God is waiting for you to listen, and he'll wait forever. The choice is yours!

Faith can manifest itself in many ways. Do not assume that it has to be in your religion. Pride leads to a fall... Don't assume you know better, or believe better. Who are you to judge?

I am grateful for every day I am alive. I hope you are too. If you place that gratitude in a deity or creator and that makes you happy, good for you.

But don't assume that what you believe is what everyone else should believe too. Unless you are god...

I don't have faith, I have experience.

WE will ALL have to be accountable.

That day is today.

This is an article on Faith.

For those of you that don’t have this Faith – then it is something that you are missing. My faith is Knowing that God is Creator of Heaven and Earth and one day, WE will ALL have to be accountable to God, our creator. He is a loving God and I only wish that those who choose to destroy and devalue the words of Bishop Tutu could have faith such as his.

In order to have this faith – you must believe in our maker and creator (this is what faith means – knowing and believing in God but not physically seeing him.) He gives us Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Goodness, and Self-Control. Yes – These are the Fruits of the Spirit.

I know that God has shown his Favor on Bishop Tutu.

A note for Terry McKay – Please do not allow the attacks by others hurt or upset you because of your being a true believer in Christ – Satan will send his attackers. This is his “Only Defense”. Just remember – through Christ, WE have THE CONTROL and THEY CANNOT TAKE THIS AWAY. We have Love, Joy, Peace, Patience, Kindness, Gentleness, Faithfulness, Goodness and SELF-CONTROL. YES, they would love for you to loose your Patience, BUT, “I can do all things through Christ who Strengthens me. May Christ strengthen your belief and give you courage to continue banishing Satan at his every attempt.

I think many people are missing Archbishop Tutu's point. I don't believe his point (or, for that matter, the point of Christianity) is that trust in God yields protection from death or other calamity.

Instead, I think the point is that trust in God yields a serenity able to match any calamity.

Bad things happen to good people. *For Christians* (not putting words into anyone else's mouth), this is abundantly clear in the example of Jesus on the cross. In Jesus, we Christians find God suffering with us.

I should add that all the worlds religions (that I know of) also have their unique approach to the issue of suffering. Rabbi Harold Kushner has written a book on the subject many years ago. The First Noble Truth of Buddhism is that suffering is inescapable (and there are probably many other examples, too).

I liked the Archbishop's vignette.

I'm confused - I'm swayed back and forth reading the explanations and interpreations of the Bishop's words (except for switzer's post, which is not at all compelling).

Bishop? Could you explain please? it might help get the discussionn back on track.

Some 500 years ago in Europe those who said the world is round got burned to death. The same who said there is no god. Interesting because on the one hand simplicity was enforced while on the other hand complexity - the Church pretty much played the game from both ends to keep us from free thinking. Things haven't changed much.

Havnt you herd off SPELLCHECK, peeple?

I to am a Christian and I know that God is real. God is the only one that I can trust in during my times of trouble, He is my provider, my promisekeeper, comforter, a healer and much more to me than anyone. Just because you do not believe as I do or you feel that you need to attack me for my beliefs will not change who I am or who believe in I will continue to walk with God each day of my life, because I know actually what He has done for my family and me I will be a Christian 24/7.

I would add my name to the list of those who read Bishop Tutu's words to mean that he recognized in his time of need that God was in control and he accepted His will, whatever it would be.

When he found himself healed, he determined that God must have a plan for his life, and he set out to make much of it. That is truly inspiring, and a challenge to all believers. First, recognize that God is in control and accept His perfect will. Second, live a productive life in His name, to glorify Him, and to make the most of what He has given us.

People belittle every thought, experience, belief and humanity and talk about tolerance. People die becuase it is time for them to die, People like ArchBishop live because it is God's will. It is not contradiction. Please belittle others when you do not understand them.

"There is a time for everything, and a season for every activity under heaven: a time to be born and a time to die,..." Ecclesiastes 3:1-2

Thank you Archbishop TuTu for sharing a part of your faith walk with God with us. On April 22, 2001 I took ill in Church singing praises to God...it's still my time to spread and sing the Gospel of Jesus Christ!

Showers of Blessings!

Jesus wants us to trust Him - period. We can't possibly understand why horrible things happen in this world. (billfleisch, you assume that a physical disability is always a tragedy. I don't know, but Hitler thought similarly, didn't he?) Faith is not based on a logical examination of facts and events but what you know in your soul. For those of you who don't know or don't believe, try stepping out of your head for a minute for a spiritual answer. What if there is a God, whatever his name might be? Make a simple request for proof that He exists. Make sure you're prepared for an answer.

We only think we have control over our lives. Archbishop Tutu acknowledged that he had no control over his life/death. He acknowledged God and accepted His will. The others may have done the same. God just made a different decision for them.

Sadly, we've been given instructions: love is the most important thing. Whether we believe in the existence of a god or not, that seems like a simple direction to me.

Those other children died, and Archbishop Tutu did not because of a simple bible truth. (Romans 5:12; James 1:13) God will remove death, not cause it. (1 Corinthians 15:54).

Simple Man:

Why does creation depend on a "who"? What a brazenly anthropomorphic position you've taken!

Would you consider the possibly that you and the rest of humanity that believes in a vengeful deity, simply have too limited an imagination or perception or knowledge to understand the nature of our own creation, much less all of existence, and therefore you substitute as an explanation a projection of the only thing you know--"Daddy", the authority figure of your youth.

That's it, God must be just like "Daddy" was when I was little. (Complete with all the human faults: he's petty, jealous and proud of it, homicidal, genocidal, and an unforgiving control freak.)

People who share your views just seem convinced that there is a "who" responsible for all of this, and that who is a heck of a lot like Daddy was.

What's all this "saved" from death stuff? I believe, but I also am confident enough in my
lack of knowledge to say I don't know if life is
better than death. Life, death, those aren't the
points. The point is my faith in God...that I
don't and will never have all the knowledge of
the world. For the critics asking about
children and others not being saved - how do you
know that death wasn't the better thing and the
honorable Mr. Tutu was given the bum rap? So funny
how human perception can label things good or
bad when there's no proof that such a judgement is appropriate to the condition.

Peace, faith, belief, humility. Those are the values. All else will be revealed.

I suspect that had Bishop Tutu passed at that point he would have gone trusting God--whatever his understanding of God is. What a wonderful way that would be to die.

Ashley and Billfleish, why such vitriol? What has happened in your lives that causes you to attack so fiercely a man who has done so much good in the world? Would you also attack The Reverend Doctor Martin Luther King Jr in such a way because he founded his actions on a love of the Christian God?

I am not Christian, I am a Deist, but even when I thought of myself as an atheist I honored those who held other beliefs.

Your attacks on Archbishop Tutu require an apology to this great man.

Martin - omnitheism.com

I am constantly amazed by the simplistic and outright infantile logic that atheists apply to the very complex question of God's existence and purpose.

Phrases like "if God is loving and omnipotent then children shouldn't die" reveal a lack of understanding akin to someone believing that "if God loves me he will get me ice cream for dinner." Of course that is not the purpose of God, or the meaning of the Christian faith.

It is explicitly not about utilitarian reciprocity, but about a loving, sustaining, and forgiving relationship of God and all his people. Speaking with Einstein - God does not play dice; he does not create or terminate or choose one life over another, and certainly not randomly.

Often tragic conditions or events - near-death experiences, pain in everyday life, extended meth use, and so on - lead to God. I suppose that's understandable. I hear this stuff a lot from American Evangelicals. But it didn't work out so well for Ted Haggard; I guess that's his problem. Anyway, I hope for a day when God stops being conflated with the very real senses of confusion in our world. God is a metaphor of nature, of "everything-ness," and that's ok except that the metaphor has slipped so wildly out of control that people forget it's a metaphor - and indeed a beautiful metaphor - for our collective vexation. But I am happy that you are healthy, Mr. Tutu. Best wishes to you.

I'm a Christian so my believe in God is that he is very real. Bishop Tutu had an encounter with God and there's no doubt in my mind that God saved his life. I agree with Tom, I love God with all my heart and no human being will ever steal the love and joy God gives me everyday, but this forum is not helping at all. It's doing more bad then good because people are being attacked for what they believe and thats not right. God has given us free will to believe what we wnat to believe, we can believe in his mercy and grace and beleived he died for us or don't have to. Attacking people is pure hatred for something they don't understand or don't want to understand and that's their right under the law of man or God. Please stop hurting each other with your believes in a harsh way. Let Christian's like myself believe that Jesus died for our sins and let people that don't believe in God believe what they want to believe. It's our free will.

May God bless all of you with joy and peace this year. May his favor move over you granting your hearts desires and fill you with happiness throughout this year. Mercy and Grace to you all in Jesus name Amen!!

Thank you all for your insightful comments.
Yes, insightful.
Why?
You thougtht of it and you took the time to put it down for all to read.

You are the master of your domain.

1. You made a decision to read the story.
3. You took the time to react to the story.
3. Using the power of the computer which you have full control of, you were able to project your thought in aThank you all for your insightful comments.
Yes, insightful.
Why?
You thought of it and you took the time to put it down for all to read.

You are the master of your domain.

1. You made a decision to read the story.
3. You took the time to react to the story.
3. Using the power of the computer which you have full control of, you were able to project your thought in an electronic format for us to read.
4. It would seem to me that we are indeed masters and as others would even dare to say gods.

BUT,
The question that begs asking is:
What is the source of your confidence?

If you believe that you exist then who created you?
It's scary how confident people feel with so little unanswered questions?

If it’s not God then Who?

Who is in charge?

We are quick to attack other’s faith, but have we settle the question for ourselves?

electronic format for us to read.
4. It would seems to me that we are indeed masters and as others would even dare to say gods.

BUT,
The question that begs asking is:
Where is the source of your confidence?

If not God then Who?
If you beleive that you exist then Who created you?

It's scary how confident people feel with so little unanswered questions?

Who is in charge?

I've never understood how a "believer" can profess the comfort derived from God when this God is so arbitrary: "If I die, God, ok, if I live, that's ok too". How does this add anything above a simple notion of Fate, except that you might feel good from thinking there's a benign personality behind the scenes directing everything? God works in mysterious ways, so mysterious, in fact, as to be no more useful in explaining things than an atheistic notion of randomness. Nevertheless I find this believer's viewpoint to be vastly superior to that which would call upon a supreme being to deliver favors, to somehow direct events on request--the worst example being football teams that pray for victory before a game.

@WashingtonPost
Unless you bring in Hindoes, Ying&Yang, Buddha, etc. it is really pretty much a black and white chessgame - you either believe in god (white) or you don't (black) and is boring. Bring in the Indian and Asian believes and see what happens. For starters you'll find out that the many world races make their own God, Buddha, etc. and not the other way around - it is strictly the genes.

I didn't see anything in Desmond Tutu's written words that said he thought he was special; only that in a moment of physical crisis something happened that caused him to have a particular view of "god" and his relationship with "god".
In some of the comments I believe people are projecting their own pain, valid pain, onto someone else. Otherwise I don't understand so much anger directed at someone simply relating their own personal experience. I understand that atheists and those who question religion are constantly under seige. I suppose this makes it possible to sense an attack that may not have been waged.

Trusting in "god" doesn't make you special, just willingly vulnerable to the uncertainties and certainties of human experience.

This is neither good nor bad; just one of the choices available to us all as people. Atheism is also a choice. We each have to make our own choices. The more freedom in our choices the better they are. In this and other regards atheism, religion and sprituality are all constructive parts of our shared experience.

Or, so I believe.

I'd like to believe I'm a passionate Christians, but you non-believers just don't get it. Nothing but negative, angry, vindictive words spew from your mouth. If you all were true believers you would see the beauty and truth in Bishop Tutu's story/experience. To you non-believers (Athiests), your tomb stone will read as follows:

"Here I lie with no place to go"

Note: If you all were true believers, you would know the story (Jesus Christ preached)of Lazarus.

Thanks Acrbishop Tutu , our Campaign for Justice is still on .
Keep us the good work and God bless you .

NicoNtumba_JusticeCampaign

Whether it was God or not it was good fortune for all of us that young Desmond survived his illness. Bishop Tutu has been a powerful voice for peace and humanity for many years, and we should all, atheist and believer alike, be grateful for that and respectful of the man. I may not share his religious faith but I respect and even admire any belief which leads to such a positive life.

Thank you, Archbishop Tutu, for sharing this moving experience.

It's really sad when an atheist doesn't know how to spell a-t-h-e-i-s-t.

Billfleisch,

If YOU are so loving and compassionate, why have YOU "allowed" millions upon millions of children to die from wars, disease, floods, fire and accident?

The Bishop and God

I agree with Jim Walker above. And I am an atheist.

Many lovely people - and they don't come any lovelier than Bishop Tutu - believe in a "God" who is more synonymous with "creating energy," or "fate," or "the order of the universe," rather than a God who created the world in seven days and who got really mad at all of his creations and flooded it all out.

"Tell me what you believe in and we'll call that God". Whatever the nature of the concept of God that is in Bishop Tutu's head, its a good concept.

Dear WashPost: I appreciate your intent to have this forum, but you must have noticed by now that it attracts more heat than light. Apparently some people feel the need to chime in and attack either a) any religious belief at all, while others attack b) whatever disagrees with their own convictions. I see very few cases of "gee, that was a good point, maybe I will consider that" .. instead, it is often "I am rite and those who disssagree are dumm!!"
a few short points
1. Casey, the U.S. military budget is nowhere near half. It was 470 billion in 06, about 20% of the total spent.
2. I am in favor of cutting the military budget, but if we cut it to zero, most every level-headed analyst agrees that the the Jihadists would take us over. And then we would no longer be able to have these pleasant discussions.
3. Bishop Tutu and I may disagree on many points, but he has dedicated his life to bringing people together. That is commendable. Most others of faith have the same purpose, but not all of them accomplish it or go about it as well.

I will keep you in my prayers.

As stated earlier, the Archbishop was not saying that he was saved because he was better. He was saying that when he came near death, God calmed him.

The fact that millions of people die should probably be attributed to more than God's existence or lack there of. To say that God doesn't exist and then to say that it's God's fault for granting us the free will to do evil things seems illogical to me.

So, the alternative is: no God exists; and when we die, we no longer exist. The words injustice and evil don't seem to belong in a universe comprised of nothing more than the physical? Good and bad people are still going to die, often under mysterious or horrible circumstances. I don't see how your worldview explains this in a more comforting of logical fashion, especially in comparison to religious alternatives.

It seems to me that some readers have missed the main point of the story. Archbishop Tutu doesn't make any claim that God saved him from death.

Archbishop Tutu claims that his acceptance of both the possibility of life and the possibility of death brought him an undefined sense of assurance that was the beginning of a trusting relationship with God, i.e. an acceptance of whatever God might have in store for him. It is possible that God had no role in whether he lived or died (he makes no claim to this), and instead the key to his future accomplishments was this new relationship which helped focus and guide in life from that point forward-- an understanding that the most important thing was not whether he lived or died but how well he responded the challenges of his life with the support of God.

He does state that he later found out that death had been the most likely outcome of his illness. But again he makes no claim that God kept him alive. He only says that the knowledge he might have died had made him especially grateful for all his time since then.

For those who believe in a creator God, life is always a gift, but that does not mean, the reality of death is the result of a God that is either punishing people or ignoring others. Archbishop Tutu's story illustrates that the peace/assurance he felt was not the result of God's intervention. It was the result of the young Tutu's acceptance of either fate.

Bishop Tutu's miracle was the feeling of peace, not his surviving the disease.

Ashley, you are the reason why people of faith don't share their sacred experiences when people ask them for proof of God. You mock us and it gets tiresome.

Switzer's post about "the unfortunate consequence of being on the outs with the one who has graciously, lovingly and persistently reached out to us." is the eptimome of the gross contraditions and arrogance of his brand of so called Christianity. Love is unconditional and if Switzer's god is gracious and loving as he tesifies, then ther can be no condition of "being on the outs" How arrrogant. Who is Switzer to say who is "in" or "out" with god? If there is a heaven, I hope there are partitions to prevent spending eternity with the likes of Switzer. Jesus, please protect us from your followers.

John Humphries has interviewed the Arch Bishop of Caterbury, Rowan Williams, an Islamic scholar who's last name is Ramadan and a very helpful Rabbi named Sachs - interviews can be found on the BBC websight. Regarding the question about theodicy - if God is good then why only to some - Sachs says that the injustice you percieve is a part of God's creation which helps you see what to fight. If you want to work towards a perfectly just society then you are doing the work God sets out in the Bible and for Christians through the life of Jesus. Tutu has been awarded the world's top honor for peace following Christ's example. What God wants for God's people is to change the situation around the stuff you get angry about. i.e. kids dying. The pain and suffering in the world gives you something to dedicate your life to changing.

I had a similar experience, without the God part... and it was just as profound.

I am great admirer of Bishop Tutu. His ability to unconditionally forgive is beyond my comprehension, but speaks volumes about his compassion.

I think just the mere act of distancing himself from the outcome his coughing/bleeding, he calmed himself to the point where he could survive.

Our unwillingness to accept God's judgment about who deserves to live or die is simply not rational. In fact, it sounds a bit resentful of all authority. Which is the point, rejection of God is a choice that leads to the unfortunate consequence of being on the outs with the one who has graciously, lovingly and persistently reached out to us. In the end, when God's right choices are vindicated, and the cry for justice rings round the world, it will be you and I who are being questioned for our wrongs not God. We would do better to quit attempting to put God on trial and focus our attention on working through our own persistent rudenesses and unkindnesses. The attempt to blame God for injustice ultimately leads to an inability to discern what is injustice and what is not. At that point, we find ourselves making decisions that are simply everything for which we have tried to accuse God. Rude...unkind...injust...reactionary...emotionally driven...murderous...hateful...resentful...etc.

We forget to trust God in all things.
I don't want it to take something as dramatic to be on my deathbed to trust in God. I must remember to trust God all the time, even when things are at my hardest.
If I make it, thank you God
If I don't, thank you God anyway

Thank you for sharing your story Bishop Tutu.

My mind is more at peace now.

"God if I’m going to die, that’s okay; if not, that’s okay too."
I think that what Bishop Tutu was saying - regardless of life or death - he trusted in God and the Peace God gives us. He was not saying that he was saved instead of others.

billfleisch:

I would like to add, if the United States were to spend it's military money (half of its annual budget) to helping others rather than war? Could you image the difference that would make.

All those millions of children and hungry and disease would be better off. I am not saying that this would solve everything, I am just saying we do have the funds and the people to make a difference. Sadly most of the problems we face are of our humanities own making, so until we stand up to make a difference nothing will change. We don't need God, we just need to wake up and treat each other well, rather than concentrating on harm...

But hasn't this been said already by so many great people? Its really an issue of greed and power of a few harming the many. It's not an issue of God, it's an issue of man.

So shift the question and focus on where it matters, our lives.

Peace

ack that was me... as the last Anonymous God actor...

peace

billfleisch:

I neither believe or disbelieve in God.

Instead I strong believe its up to us to live life well and to make a difference by helping others.

In Hindu belief we are all god, each one of us. God is playing a role and we are part of the divine. If this is the case then that too says its up to us as God to make the difference.

So to answer those questions. It's up to us, and enough of us to act together to make a difference. Help locally , let that ripple out. It does work and if enough of us try, we can lift up the world.

Peace and acceptance in your travels
http://www.personaltao.com/

Ashley, your post sure supports my thinking! If the christian god is so loving and compassionate, why has he "allowed" millions upon millions of his children to die from wars, disease, floods, fire and accident. . .why has he "allowed" so many of his loved children to be born with horrible disabilities. I'm asking the world to go figure. Can someone tell me logically why?

Dear ArchBishop Tutu, how honored I am. In response to your rhetorical muse "God if I’m going to die, that’s okay; if not, that’s okay too." I would suppose God, or one of God's angels immediately saw in you a soul that His experiment could not afford to lose in the coming trials, for timing is everything and time is God's domain. I recently heard an interview with you on Public Radio. In your statements you drew your listeners attention to the fact that Adolph Hitler was a Christian as was Mother Theresa. It is not the cover of the book is it my big brother, but rather what the author has written on the pages. I can only hope and pray that God Blesses you many fold the Blessings you have provided the entire world through your teachings and your examples. My pulse is strong with love for you. Amen.

Ashley: Find peace in your life rather than attacking personal experiences of others.

Of course the more one attacks other views the less of your own view will be true. Its strange to watch that happen to people actually. Such a style of attack is a form of belief thru consumption, where your anger supports the belief, where the attack generates heat and the illusion of support for one's own views. It doesn't make a difference if you are a Christian or an not, this style of supporting ones belief doesn't work very well, and just hurts others.

Asking the questions in this style in attacking other will never answer them. Both science and religion have been the source of harm, since it upon each person to live and to make the best of the puzzle we have as our life.

Peace and acceptance in your travels
http://www.personaltao.com/

So, you think God decided to save you? Why did he not save all the people who died in the tsunami a year ago? They didn't rate?

How about the boy run over by a car in our neighborhood on Christmas Eve? God didn't rate him highly enough?

What about the millions who died in the influenza epidemic in 1918? I guess God didn't care about them.

How about all the children allegedly killed by Herod because the Magi could not longer follow the miraculous star (though it reappeared again).

You are a great man, and you have accomplished much more than most people who have inhabited this planet, but your ideas of being saved are based on whimsical and quaint superstition, unless you believe God somehow thought you were more important than all the children who die young, and all those who die from events beyond their control.

"I had watched in our general ward how those patients who had hemorrhages almost always ended up being carried out on a stretcher to the mortuary."

Guess those guys didn't warrant a special relationship with your god.

"I think I learned then to trust God implicitly."

And the patients who died? Do you think they have implicit trust in your diety?

Wait, wait, don't tell me....

"Gods work in mysterious ways!!!"
"God called them home!"
"God needed them in heaven to file insurance claims!"

The ability of the religious to believe utterly contradictory things never fails to amaze me.

My mother always says that God has a special purpose for some people. Archbishop Tutu is a case in point. Thank you for sharing your story.

Praise God for your survival. Your history of humanity-improvement is a credit to your faith.