Blessed are the persecuted

Archbishop Desmond Tutu: “If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn’t worship that God”

A Christian Response.

It is very unfortunate that Desmond Tutu, archbishop emeritus of the church of the Province of South Africa is afforded any currency, by anyone, when he makes utterances about how the Christian Church, or how Christians should behave. There are several reasons for this; the first being that he lacks a moral compass which is governed by the handbook for all Christians, the Bible, which also happens to be the primary written source for theology of Christianity. Instead, any moral compass which he may claim to have is calibrated and governed by the ever shifting opinions and standards of what is now largely known as a post-modern, non-Christian world. The term politically correct habituates comfortably there. Post-modernism denies that there can be any universal truth (one truth relevant and applicable to all people anywhere in the world) or any abiding truth (a truth that holds true for all time). Relativism and pluralism is the offspring of such a philosophy and an utterer of a muthos which refuses any subjection to the Logos (Christ). Plato said in Charmides: “We should not at all be concerned with who said it, but whether it is true or not.” For a Christian, the only reference for truth, or as Francis Schaeffer calls it, “true truth”, is the Bible itself and that book exhorts any listener to so-called truths to verify such claims of truth against its own documented true truths. The Bible is the sole standard against which any claimed truth may be measured against and verified and ratified, or not.

To understand how and why Tutu believes and says what he does, one needs to look back into the history of the Church of England to see where the very first fissure formed within its ranks, which over time has developed into a chasm dividing its members into two distinct camps, a chasm that will probably never be able to be bridged again. After fomenting as a conspiracy in 1833, in Oxford, it is ironic that the palpable cracks started in South Africa (Tutu’s birthplace), in March 1847, with the appointment of Robert Gray as the first bishop of the Church of England in South Africa. Gray was a member of a conspiratorial group of mainly Oxford academics known variously as “The Oxford Movement”, “Tractarians” and “Anglo-Catholics” working secretly and subversively against the constitutional articles of the Church of England. They believed that the historic schism of the mid sixteenth century reformation and the formation of a protestant “Church of England” by Henry viii was a big mistake. The true church was, and always would be the Roman Catholic Church. It was with this philosophy that Gray arrived in Cape Town and caused pandemonium amongst the local church’s adherents and clergy. Within seven days he renamed St George’s Church, St George’s Cathedral. After a while, when a number of clergymen remonstrated with him, accusing him of trying to impose a form of religious practice foreign to the thirty nine articles of faith of the Church of England, he withdrew their stipends and refused one of them permission to preach in his own church. He also put padlocks on the doors of another church. They eventually took him to the Supreme Court of the land and won their cases against him. Ever since then, that branch of the Anglican Church (from which many rotten apples have fallen) can only be known in South Africa as the Church of the Province of South Africa, whereas the original adherents have been known as the Church of England in South Africa. When it suited Gray, he appealed to the Archbishop of Canterbury and the Privy Council for help (to get bishop Colenso excommunicated among other things), when it did not suit him (when his superiors in England, including the Archbishop of Canterbury, concurred with the clergy in South Africa and attempted to discipline him), he ignored them and claimed that although his church was in union and communion with the mother church in England, it was not under its disciplinary control. Gray once said in a letter: “I am afraid that my dear brethren Wilberforce (bishop of Oxford) and Hamilton (bishop of Salisbury) regard me as obstinate, self willed, determined at all hazards to force the mother church to recognition of my proceedings or else to incur the risk of schism. The two archbishops (York and Canterbury) opposed all that we did with bitterness and vehement hostility. We cannot and dare not trust these to select a bishop for this land. We shall probably have, in our provincial synod, to protest against this act of the Archbishop of Canterbury for interfering canonically in the affairs of this province, with which he had no connections, ecclesiastically or legally.” Gray was of course wrong on both counts but he was determined to force his extrabiblical ideology onto the clergy and laity under his control in South Africa.
Sadly, the main body of the Church of England, in England, eventually acquiesced to the Oxford movement’s philosophy over the years and only a small minority of churches known as the “low church” remain faithful to the thirty nine articles of faith of the established Church of England. Gray did not want the job of bishop in the first place and told a friend in a letter, before his appointment, that he was not a spiritual person and that the church had many better qualified people than himself to do the job. It has taken the Anglican Church in its mother country 160 years to come to a similar chasm within its ranks that had formed in South Africa in the mid nineteenth century.

The reason why this brief background is given, is that even though much of the theology perpetuated by like minded adherents, past and present, was home-spun and morphed into the predominant philosophies of the day, the thread which weaved its way through the warp and woof of so-called Anglo-Catholicism, was the weighting given by the Roman Catholic Church and this group (the Anglo Catholics), to extra-biblical factors i.e. church tradition, anthropomorphic philosophies, decisions taken by church councils, the opinions of prelates, archbishops or presiding bishops etc. At very best, these aspects of societal and church life have been given equal weighting to biblical precepts and directives. At worst they have taken primacy over the word of God. The so-called “high” Anglican Church (which the Anglo Catholic church is known as today) has a history of at least 140 years where it has not in the main, based its theological decisions exclusively on the tenets of the Bible. Its leaders mostly have concurred with today’s Post-moderns and other non, or anti Christians, that the Bible does not contain definitive, universal and abiding truths which do not date and become passé and which are applicable in any and all contexts that affect humankind. There is little or no reverence and awe for the Bible and its precepts, or for God and His Christ for that matter. The true Christian uses the Bible as his or her moral compass, for faith, direction, contemplation and praxis.

The second major reason why Tutu should not be given any currency when he utters statements which elucidate various aspects of his worldview, is that he is not a Christian.
He makes Christian noises, wears clerical garb and large crosses that dangle around his neck and quotes from the Bible, but he is not a Christian. In this case, even though it looks like a duck, walks like a duck, makes a noise like a duck… it is not a duck and what it says is not all that it’s quacked up to be. He is, in reality, a holist, pantheist, humanist, Marxist and Universalist. He admits to most of these appellations himself. It is for this reason that he proclaims: “Because love is universal. I mean, you don’t have to believe in God to know that loving is better than hating. We are trying to remind them that all of us are fundamentally good. The aberration is the bad person. God is not upset that Gandhi was not a Christian, because God is not a Christian! All of God's children and their different faiths help us to realize the immensity of God. No faith contains the whole truth about God. And certainly Christians don’t have a corner on God. All of us belong to God. Even the nonbeliever is precious to God. And one simply tries to remind them that they are made for transcendence. They are made for goodness.” and “All of us are God's children. I frequently say, I'm so glad I'm not God! Can you imagine having to say, “Bin Laden is my child. Saddam Hussein is my child. George Bush is my child.” Oh! All of them, including me. Can you imagine what God must have felt watching the Holocaust? Watching Hiroshima and Nagasaki? Watching Rwanda? Can you imagine God watching Darfur? Imagine God watching Iraq and saying, “These are my children here, and they are killing my other children. And I can't do anything because I have said to them, 'I give you the space to be you and that space enables you to make choices. And I can't stop you when you make the wrong choices. All I can do is sit here and cry.'” And God cries until God sees beautiful people who care, even if they may not do earth-shattering things.” That belief is not borne of the Christian Bible; it comes from a mish mash of eastern belief systems with Tutu’s own homespun ideas from the god he created in his own image. According to the Bible, we are not all fundamentally good, in fact it states quite the opposite: “For all have sinned and come short of the Glory of God” and what are the consequences arising from that situation? “For the wages of sin is (eternal) death but the gift of God is eternal life in Jesus Christ our Lord.” That gift is also not given to all humanity but only to those who repent of their sinfulness and accept the gift of life through Christ. The Bible is also very clear about the fact that all of God’s human creations are not automatically His children, or members of His family and He does not automatically show favour toward the great majority of them. It is only after a process of each individual recognizing and acknowledging their state of sinfulness and inability to please God, and repentance of sin, as well as a personal invitation for Jesus to come and spiritually inhabit them and empower them to transform and turn away from their sinful lives, that they can become members of God’s family. It seems like a long winded cumbersome rite but its not. It can happen in seconds. An individual can go through that whole process by just saying: “O God help me”, meaning that he or she wants God to transform them from being a lost soul to one who is saved from eternal damnation. The Bible says: “Yet to all who received him, to those who believed in him, he gave the right to become children of God.” John 1: 12. Yet Tutu says: “In God’s family, there are no outsiders, no enemies. Black and white, rich and poor, gay and straight, Jew and Arab, Muslim and Christian, Hindu and Buddhist, Hutu and Tutsi, Pakistani and Indian—all belong.” Tutu’s philosophy says that all are God’s children, but the Christian Bible says that only by a true belief in Christ and an invitation for Him to come and inhabit and rule over an individual, can anyone become a child of God and then, one only maintains that status if one “remains in Christ and He in you” or else “If anyone does not remain in me, he is like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up and thrown into the fire and burned.”

Tutu has said on occasion that he is not holy. Far be it as a result of self effacing modesty, or because of his lying, or his habit of knocking back a daily glass or two of rum and coke; there is a very good reason why Tutu makes a statement like that. Holiness, or being holy, means being set apart. Obviously because of his experiences in South Africa of Apartheid, he is averse to any belief system that requires people to be separated, but this is not the only reason for his aversion. His worldview of Holism or Universalism and Humanism believes that God is in everything and that everything is in God and ultimately, everyone is God. Concomitantly, no one is separated, or excluded from God. It is a very attractive and comforting philosophy, but it is not biblical and consequently not Christian. God states in the Bible: “Be Holy as I am Holy”. It is not a suggestion or a request, but a directive. How do we become holy then? The Bible tells us that His Holy Spirit sanctifies us and makes us holy and that we access God the Father by one Spirit. Uttering one of his many theological inventions, Tutu once said from St Albans cathedral Pretoria: “The Holy Spirit is not limited to the Christian church; for example, Mahatma Ghandi, who is a Hindu, the Holy Spirit shines through him.” Not only is such a statement blasphemous, but there is absolutely nothing in the Bible that can lead someone to make such an assumption. The Bible states: “This is how you can recognise the Spirit of God: Every Spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, but every spirit that does not acknowledge Jesus is not from God. This is the spirit of the antichrist, which you have heard is coming and even now is in the world.” Hinduism believes in and worships multiple deities. The Bible states that there is only one God and that he is only accessible through Jesus Christ. Ghandi never believed nor propagated that, nor does the Dalai Lama, nor does Desmond Tutu.

Tutu also said: “Can you imagine that there are those who think God is a Christian? Can you tell us what God was before he was a Christian?” as well as “Most of us think God is a Christian, but if you think that God is going to tell the Dalai Lama 'you're a good person, but sorry you're not a Christian' then (I say) rubbish.” Tutu is usually very astute with his turn of phrase when he says something controversial and mostly tries to play linguistic chess so that he can argue his way out of a situation when challenged by Bible believing Christians. Of course God is not a Christian, but what Tutu clearly infers here and on numerous other occasions, is that God is not only defined as He is defined by Christians, but equally validly defined and understood by many, all, other faiths. Tutu has his own “Peace Prayer” in which he states inter alia: “Oh God, all Holy one, you are our Mother and our Father and we are your children. Open our eyes and our hearts that we may be able to discern your work in the universe, and be able to see your features in every one of your children. May we learn that there are many paths, but all lead to You. Help us to know that you have created us Members of the same family Your family, the human family.” But the Christian Bible states: “But there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Jesus Christ.” One God, one path, one mediator, Jesus Christ. As Jesus said in His own words: “No man comes to the Father except through me.” None of the aforementioned people believe that; including Tutu.

Thirdly, no true Christian can utter the blasphemies that God is: “a God of disgracefully loose standards”, “His (God’s) standards are quite low”. “Jesus revolutionised religion by showing that God is a “disreputable” God – a God who accepts unconditionally and rejoices when everyone is included in a fair and just society.” Imagine what would happen to Tutu if he pretended to be a Moslem and spoke of “Allah” in those terms. God’s standards are of the highest and most demanding. He says in the Bible: “Be perfect as I am perfect” an impossible state for us to attain without the only perfect man ever to walk this earth, Jesus, inhabiting us and empowering us so that we become juridically perfect in God’s sight. His acceptance of those wishing to come to Him is not unconditional, His acceptance is to those who repent and turn from their sinful living. Obviously Tutu in his irreverent characterisation of God is trying to make the point that God accepts all-comers irrespective of their status in society, or their spiritual, or physical condition. He does indeed accept all of the aforementioned and more, but Tutu makes a disingenuous or ignorant extrapolation from that truth to the assertion that God is the friend of all societal misfits, even if they continue living their same lives, after coming to a spiritual meeting with Him. When Jesus rescued a prostitute from being stoned by a mob and told her that He would not condemn her, He said to her: “Go now and leave your life of sin. The Bible is full of allegories and metaphors using prostitution as an illustration to the vileness of individuals, the nation of Israel and the like. With Tutu the single tax collector, prostitute, thief and adulteress with whom Jesus encountered and transformed, they have become plural so Jesus is the friend of tax collectors, prostitutes etc. It is important to note that none of the abovementioned returned to their previous way of living. Tutu says further: “Everyone, everyone, without exception, everyone, even the most unlikely, even the most undeserving -- the down-and-outs, the derelicts, the louts, the drug addicts, the substance abusers, the prostitutes, the pimps -- if we had but the eyes to see, we would discern even in dark conditions, that they were God-carriers, precious in the sight of God, with a value that cannot be computed.” Only in Pantheism and Holism, not biblical Christianity.

We now come to the latest furore caused by Tutu’s utterings. This article was inspired by the headline emblazoned in a local newspaper in Cape Town, South Africa which stated: “‘I wouldn’t worship an anti-gay God- Tutu’. The report was based on an interview with Tutu on a B.B.C. radio programme in which he actually said: “If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn’t worship that God.” Well, he does not worship that God… for now, at any rate; but the Bible tells us that there will come a time, after this current dispensation on earth, that “at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.” That includes Satan, Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein, Desmond Tutu et al. The worship will not be voluntary.

The homosexual debate within Christianity has raged on for ages now, with the liberal left escalating pressures on Christians to accept that homosexuality is acceptable in the sight of God and that it is only conservative killjoys who have not progressed with the rest of enlightened society to see that the view that homosexuality is a sin, is a draconian concept borne out of many of misconceptions and misinterpretations of Old Testament scriptures. There is no misinterpretation of God’s Holy Scriptures, the Bible, which tells us of God’s hatred and abhorrence for acts of homosexuality. There are many places in the Bible clearly stating this. And it is not only the Old Testament which expounds this truth. We are told in the book of Corinthians for instance: “Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes, nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God”. That is explicit and clear. There is no mistranslation or misunderstanding about the status of homosexuals. Firstly they are categorised as “wicked”, then as “offenders” and finally, they will not enter the kingdom of heaven. You will notice that most of these people are representative of people who Tutu claims are “God-carriers” and are deeply loved by God.

Tutu said further in the B.B.C. interview: “It is a perversion if you say to me that a person chooses to be homosexual”. Well, a person chooses to be homosexual. There may be indeterminable debates regarding whether people are born with a predilection to liking members of their own sex, but such a person should rightly be known as a homophile. Unless a person is being raped or being forced to partake in sex against their will, all people choose to have sex, hence homosexuals choose to partake in same sex activities unless, as I say, they have been forced or coerced in some way to do so. It is not a sin to be a homophile but it is to be homosexual. Tutu says it is a perversion to say that it’s a person’s choice to commit a homosexual act, but the Bible says in the Old Testament: “If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable.” and in the New Testament: “Men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.” Homosexuality is the perversion according to the Bible, not someone saying that it is a choice. Again, Tutu is disingenuous when he intimates in all his discussions about the subject matter, that those who say that homosexuality is abhorrent to God and unacceptable to Him are also saying that God rejects homosexuals coming to Him for salvation and eternal life. That is not true. God accepts anyone, including homosexuals, but He does not condone the perpetuation of a homosexual lifestyle, or give even a tacit approval to such a lifestyle. It would make a mockery of the veracity of the Bible if it says on the one hand that God abhors homosexuality and sees it as a perversion of human sexuality, while on the other hand, he condones it and states that a part of Him is in all homosexuals. No, the Bible does not make that ridiculous dichotomy, Desmond Tutu does.

Both Jew and Moslems take pride in their claims that their holy scriptures have remained the same over aeons and are unchangeable. The Christian Bible is no different in that regard. It is not malleable and does not change according to the latest philosophy or politically correct fad. Homosexuality was a sin in the Old Testament era and it remains a sin in the New Testament era. One can feel for people who are caught up in that lifestyle and who struggle with it, but the worst disservice anyone could do toward such people is to validate the lifestyle and to tell them that what they are doing is natural and fine and that anyone who speaks against it is a bigot. The Bible states that it is unnatural. Ministers of the Gospel have an awesome responsibility toward God’s flock, who often look to them for guidance. They will come under great scrutiny from God and as God said to the rabbis of old in the book of Isaiah, He will say the same to modern day ministers who invent theologies and philosophies in place of God’s revealed word to humankind. “Israel’s watchmen are blind, they all lack knowledge; they are all mute dogs, they cannot bark; they lie around and dream, they love to sleep. They are dogs with mighty appetites; they never have enough. They are shepherds who lack understanding; they all turn to their own way, each seeks his own gain. ‘Come, each one cries, ‘let me get wine! Let us drink our fill of beer! And tomorrow will be like today, or even far better.”

It would appear that Tutu’s belief that homosexuality is not a choice, indeed possibly even a gift from God, was formed when that great icon of the Anglican Church, Trevor Huddleston visited him in hospital as a child when he was suffering from tuberculosis. A close friendship formed between the two which remained till Huddleston’s dying day. Huddleston was a pederast (one who has sexual relations with boys), or what we more commonly know today as a paedophile. He was one of a multitude of Anglican homosexual clerics past and present, in South Africa, England and the rest of the world. Tutu’s church in South Africa (Church of the Province, either covers up incidents of its priests molesting boys, or it moves them to other dioceses, or it promotes them to bishop as is the case with at least one of its current bishops). When Huddleston was finally caught molesting boys in England after returning to his homeland from a sojourn in South Africa, the Anglican church there, not only covered it up (after paying the boys’ parents compensation), he was promoted to Archbishop of the see (sea) of the Indian Ocean. He was regularly seen with boys on his lap, or touching them even while holding conversations with adults.

Tutu avers that “the church is obsessed with the question of human sexuality”. The truth of the matter is that liberals within the Anglican church, the Roman Catholic Church, as well as other churches, have relentlessly kept the pressure up over the past decades in ever increasing measures to make homosexuality palatable and acceptable, not only to society in general, but to the Christian Church. The obsession is not with Christians or churches faithful to the Bible, but with those who are hell bent on forcing it into the Christian canon. The chasm is growing deeper and wider. The sheep and the goats are being separated, as are the weeds and the wheat. Maranatha!!!

Maybe the majority of the readers of this article will howl in disgust and disapprove of its assertions and certainly point out that they are not politically correct etc., and they certainly have the right to hold any opinion or worldview they wish to hold, but what it attempts to do is to show any objective reader (as opposed to readers with, what the Bible describes as having ‘itchy ears, i.e. hearing what they want to hear), that when it comes to representing Christianity and its Bible, Archbishop emeritus, Desmond Tutu, does not in anyway legitimately represent, or accurately portray and interpret either Christianity or the Bible. He, as anyone else has the right to opinions and philosophies; he has, however, no right to purportedly speak for God, His Christ, or His Church through his utterings over the past few decades till now.
God have mercy on his soul.

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There's a little known fact that Archbishop Tutu visited the Nelson Mandela School in Sparkbrook, Birmingham, UK in the late 1980's. Pogus Caesar an established black photographer documented Tutu's visit, the pictures can be viewed at oom Gallery a British based online archive.

I've not been involved in this particular thread but a whole bunch of entries ago I heard someone, Robin?, ask Truth amoung others for the scriptural reference to where Jesus comments on the sin of homosexuality. I was intrigued and sure that an attempt would be made to do that, but I've scanned down, a long ways down the thread and no where do I see any such reference offered. To my knowledge that is in large part because there is no such reference. Am I wrong more studied students of scripture?

Do we wish to live in the old testament or the new testament brought to us by the miracle of Jesus? As a Christian Quaker I choose Jesus and the new testament with its focus on love and inclusion.

Gerry,

To clarify: Homosexuals, heterosexuals, and bisexuals can indeed be hurt if they have an STD and they can hurt/destroy others by transferring said diseases to their partners.

Concerned,

That is my point: Nobody. Nobody is hurt by someone else being gay, or straight, for that matter.

The sexual obsession in this discussion (Shearer brandishing his hell!), therefore, points to a quite different direction: The destructive "sin" factor of sex in monotheistic religions. But that is not the issue here.

Of course, people can transfer STD no matter if they are gay or straight - so again: Nobody is hurt. The "abomination" is a product of religious bigotry.

Gerry,

You asked: "The only really "moral" and reasonable question could only be, "who is hurt by someone else being homosexual )"? The answer: Nobody,..............."

No one as long as said homosexual is free of STDs.

Ditto for heterosexuals and bisexuals!!!

There are rather strong scientific findings available about homosexuality. It is funny that everybody has an opinion about it without referring to the known facts. And if an unfounded opinion is attached to religious zeal, the result must necessarily be nonsense. (It reminds me of the Grand Canyon nonsense, with people having an "opinion" about the 6000 years' earth age and attach it to religion. The whole halfway educated world erupts in laughter about this attitude: "It feels so good to be stupid, therefore I want to stay that way!")

The only really "moral" and reasonable question could only be, "who is hurt by someone else being homosexual"? The answer: Nobody, unless by the sex-obsessed homophobic zealots.

BTW I do not rule out the possibility that there may be some pseudo-homosexuals out there, those who are merely confused about their real sexuality and who have resorted to homosexuality in response to a trauma at some time in their lives. It may well be that such homosexuals would revert to or become heterosexual after the effect of the trauma has healed. That is however a complex issue that can be handled only by an appropriate health professional. Prayer is good but it must go hand in hand with the means God has provided for healing through the knowledge revealed to health professionals. It is up to a homosexual to decide whether they feel in need of such clarification and help or not, and nothing must be forced.

To me, any emanation of a person who pretends to be in the possession of truth, even if only as an alias, is to be mistrusted completely. (I, too, think it is our old zealot friend Shearer). The essence of lie is the pretense of truth.

"Truth" was the agent of all desasters in human history, mostly faith-based, but also atheist (Communism claimes scientific truth).

The only thing the "truth" poster reveals, is an unbelievably huge interest in homosexuality. He never derives his conclusions from reason, but exclusively from bible quotations (OT, "sin"), which, since his religion is a closed system, don't mean anything outside this system. A "reasonable" question would be, who is hurt by homosexuality, a stupid question is, if it is a "sin".

Life is change, evolution, development, trial and error, adaptation, balance, progress. "Truth", especially in its "eternal" form, is stagnation. The only conceivable perfect stagnation is death. "Truth" in the absolute sense is death. Truth in the striving, asking, changing, doubting, developing - relative sense is life.

Robin

Many thanks for your kind words. Don't worry I didn't interpret anything you wrote as being sarcastic. I was responding to Archbishop Tutu's comments primarily, not responding to anyone else in particular.

Intolerance on the part of Christians saddens me too, for it has nothing to do with what Jesus taught and commanded His followers to do. I worry about it particularly because it brings a bad name to Jesus Christ and His numerous followers who are good human beings. For that reason too inhuman self-righteousness and zeal which masquerades itself as morality or religion makes me quite indignant. I realise that sexuality in general and homosexuality in particular is a very sensitive issue for most. I had to deal with homosexuals directly in a professional setting, so it gave me an opportunity to understand them better as human beings and I got an insight into the additional suffering they had to go through because of their sexual orientation. In my opinion life is hard enough as it is, and homosexuals should not have to go through extra portions of suffering either due to discrimination or due to the misplaced zeal of well meaning people who think they are helping homosexuals by pressurising them to change their sexual orientation, because it is something they can't do as the medical profession has found out.

I think it is a good idea for homophobes to pray for their own healing, and leave it to God to deal with the occurance of homosexuality in nature, after all God creates them.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

http://www.aegis.com/conferences/iac/1991/WB2443.html

Soja,

***We follow some commands from the Old Testament and ignore the others because of the knowledge we have gained and the way our consciousness has developed over time, don't we? Isn't it right and proper for us to use the reasoning God has given us?***

Thank you for answering my question. I did not ask that in a sarcastic way. I suppose it was my hope that some would consider that question with the way they project their intolerance. And I do know that most Christians understand and apply your answer to most things. On the subject of homosexuality and atheism many tend to not be able to bend. It truly saddens me. As I had been taught that God is the only judge.

I found all of your recent posts to be informative and refreshing, considering what has been in this thread thus far and I count my posts in that as well.

Thank you again for your insight.

Addendum:

We follow some commands from the Old Testament and ignore the others because of the knowledge we have gained and the way our consciousness has developed over time, don't we? Isn't it right and proper for us to use the reasoning God has given us? Isn't the bottom line of all morality -do not hurt yourself, do not hurt anyone else? Wouldn't God expect us to remain open to the truth of science and the changed circumstances we live in, while at the same time following the bottom line - do not hurt yourself or another? And for us Christians, isn't it vitally important to remember that the Old Testament laws are no longer binding, but Jesus Christ, who emobodies the love of God is our model for compassion and love?

The verse in the book of Leviticus that condemns homosexuality, along with other instructions on how to live one's life:

Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman, that is detestable. (Leviticus 18:22)

If anyone curses his father or mother, he must be put to death. If a man commits adultery with another man's wife, both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death. (Leviticus 20:9,10)

Leviticus 19:15,18,19,27,32,33:

Do not pervert justice; do not show partiality to the poor or favouritism to the great, but judge your neighbour fairly.

Do not seek revenge or bear a grudge against one of your people, but love your neighbour as yourself.

Do not plant your field with two kinds of seed. Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material.

Do not cut the hair at the sides of your head or clip off the edges of your beard.

Rise in the presence of the aged, show respect for the elderly and revere you God.

When an alien lives with you in your land, do not ill-treat him. The alien living with you must be treated as one of your native-born. Love him as yourself, for you were aliens in Egypt.

Exodus 35:2,3

For six days work is to be done, but the seventh day shall be your holy day, a Sabbath of rest to the Lord. Whoever does any work on it must be put to death.

Do not light a fire in any of your dwellings on the Sabbath day.

Posted March 3, 2007 7:06 PM

FYI:

Bazemore PH, Wilson WH, Bigelow DA, on homosexuality:

http://www.emedicine.com/med/topic3359.htm

Dear Archbishop Tutu

Your support of homosexuals is touching, your arguments in their favour from the point of view of how Jesus would have behaved, convincing. Thank God our God is a living God who speaks through voices like yours. May your voice which has international hearing ring out loud and bring support to a community that has suffered long enough, either hiding in the closet for fear or being discriminated against when they ventured out.

I met the first lesbian couple (an American one) in the Ashram of Dom Bede Griffiths. One of them was a strikingly beautiful blond woman who had left her husband to be with a rather ordinary looking woman, and she was perfectly happy! It did not occur to me to think in terms of sin, but the relationship was a deep mystery to me, for I didn’t understand homosexuality at all. Fr Bede on his part accepted and loved everyone unconditionally. His argument for those who had problems with his unconditional acceptance was that he didn’t want to be accused by Christ, “When I came to you in the person of so and so you rejected me. What you did to the least of my brethren you did unto me.”

My next exposure to homosexuals was in 1990-1991, when I had dealings with HIV/AIDS patients. I had the privilege of seeing couples love each other in ways that would put many a heterosexual couples to shame. Since homosexual marriage was not allowed at the time, it was heart rending to hear that the families of the homosexual persons who wanted to have nothing to do with him during their life, would be the first ones to claim their property after death, and the one who loved them until death would go empty handed. It seemed terribly unfair. Although it can be said to be true of very few, nevertheless I was surprised to see that some of the homosexual men were so different in the way they thought and behaved. How could anyone hold them responsible for inclinations that were beyond their control?

Another deeply moving incident was the documentary of a man who was not fully aware of his homosexuality and had remained unhappily married for several years. He was a deeply committed Christian, loving parent and a wonderfully kind and generous citizen, who did his best to be a good husband. But he was thoroughly miserable and depressed in all the years of his marriage. He thought in terms of suicide several times. Then sometime in his fifties at a seminar he met a homosexual man and struck up a friendship. A whole new world opened up for him and his mind was clear and the depression vanished. He discovered that he was homosexual, and he was really in love for the first time in his life! His integrity forced him to divorce his wife and the whole thing was a terrible mess because the society was not yet ready to accept a homosexual man as the good citizen that he was. Legal marriage was not possible at the time, but the man, being a dedicated Christian wanted his commitment to his male partner to be blessed by a priest anyway. So they went to another country in which a priest was willing to conduct an unofficial ceremony for him. At the time of the documentary he was living happily ever after with his male partner.

Now living here in Sydney, Australia, I notice that homosexuality is totally accepted and nobody needs to stay in hiding.

Statistics show that approximately ten percent of the population is homosexual, and the figures haven’t changed very much since antiquity, although the tolerance might have varied at different times in history. After psychiatrists’ attempt to “cure” homosexuality even with extreme methods failed, homosexuality as a disease was removed from the psychiatry textbook in 1973. Some heterosexuals are unable to have children. Does that make them less of a human being and rob them of the right to live in a committed relationship if they chose?

As a lay liberal Catholic, I looked for mention of homosexuality in the Bible. Apart from the oft quoted Old Testament passages, which seem to refer to either heterosexuals who resort to homosexuality in a hedonistic fashion or unethical homosexual behaviours, there is really no mention of a normal homosexual relationship at all. Out of the Ten Commandments, two of them deal with adultery - not to commit adultery and not to covet the wife of a neighbour - but there is no mention of homosexuality at all. Jesus does not mention homosexuality either. Paul mentions homosexuality in Romans also in the context of heterosexual men and women giving up their natural sexual orientation to indulge in homosexual sex. Paul refers to homosexual offenders in Corinthians. But it is not clear whether the homosexual offender is a heterosexual giving up natural inclination to practise homosexuality or a promiscuous homosexual. In this thread however we are discussing the fate of homosexuals, the ten percent of humanity, who cannot help being homosexuals and cannot be “cured” of their sexual orientation. As a heterosexual believer I join you in your support for the right of homosexuals to a life of dignity and freedom to sexual happiness like the rest of us. How could anyone ever demand of a homosexual that they should not know the joy of sexual satisfaction, not experience the happiness of committed relationships as heterosexual do? What right does anyone have to expect homosexuals to live a life of celibacy suppressing their longing and biological need for sexual satisfaction?

For those who seem to lump normal homosexual relationship with addiction, bestiality, paedophilia, rape, murder, incest etc, I wish to point out the following: sin is about hurting oneself or another or failing to live up to one’s greatest potential as a human being. Addiction of any kind destroys the person and those around them. Bestiality does not seek the consent of the animal, and animals don’t seek out human beings to have sex with – and sex with an animal degrades a human being. Paedophilia and incest are not acts of love but crimes that destroy innocent children. Rape is a violation of the body of another human being without their consent causing physical and psychological damage to the victim. Murder… does one need to outline why murder is wrong? How could a sexual relationship between two adult consenting homosexuals be compared with any of the behaviours listed?

The ambiguous passages in Paul’s letters notwithstanding, I for one would not want to put myself in the shoes of God and play the judge, condemning the behaviour of homosexuals who do not hurt anyone with their expression of love. I would not want to be held to account by God for standing in the way of happiness of homosexuals who can do nothing about their sexual orientation. I wish them as much happiness as I wish anybody else. In my opinion any violation of their rights to experience as much joy and fulfilment in their life makes God weep for He created the homosexuals as much in His image and likeness as the heterosexuals.

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

The last sentence should read..

They need not be feared, rejected or forced to be changed.

Truth

you said.... never said anything to offend anyone personally or attack them.

On the contrary, I have given hope and the reason for this hope.

I think your sincere when you say this, but I am sure you have to realize by just stating that homosexuality is a sin is offensive.

I think your sincere in wanting to offer hope. I also believe your sincerity is misplaced and worse yet dangerous.

This type of thinking in this area scares me. It scares me because its so extremely harmful and you can't/won't even attempt to consider that. In fact you claim that I am taking their hope away.

I would have to believe that all homosexuals just want to be accepted, respected, loved and share equal rights as the rest of us and by providing that to them is the way to give hope.

Shaming them into thinking they are wrong/bad/sinful for something they cannot control (no matter how much you, truth, want to believe that they can) and must turn to god for forgiveness, prayer and fasting in order to be something they are not is not only lunacy but is so very very dangerous and makes me even more fearful knowing that your not the only one out there that believes this and peddles it.

I would like to ask you how long you have been involved in this reparative therapy? The people you stated that you knew that have been converted, how long has it been since they've been converted? Do you have any research data to support the conversions last forever?

Before you ask, my research data are the people I know that are gay. Some I have grown up with. We are in our 50's they are still gay after all these years. 2 have died still being homosexual. I also know through my research data that they are fine upstanding citizens. They work, pay taxes, don't break laws, well maybe a traffic ticket here or there. Some are serious, some are humorous, some are smart, some not so smart. Some are giving, some are selfish. Some are nice, some are not so nice, sometimes. What I am trying to say is that they are just like you and me. They not be feared, rejected or forced to be changed.

Truth, if you want to learn about human nature, go to the library and read the research.

The consensus of the life sciences contradicts you. You do not understand that sex is a drive. You do not understand that homosexuality is natural.

Homosexuality is a biological phenomenon that has been observed in 1,500 species. There is no evidence that suggests that homosexuality leads to antisocial or sinful behavior.

That's the data. If you don't look at it then you are in denial.

As for religion, I have not attacked faith. I have said, however, that your position is making a mockery of the teachings of Jesus Christ.

If you are serious about Christ, go and read the Sermon of the Mount. When you are done, read it again. Read the Sermon of the Mount until you get the part about love.

Then go to the library and study biology. With the grace of God you might eventually understand what you are doing to the children.

Yockel & Mayan Elephant,

Please read my posts first, your posts do not address any of my points or give any kind of rebuttal.

I have already addressed the points in both of your posts. Like I said before strip away all the religious references and my argument is still sound.

Oh and Mayan Elephant - if hmsxlty continues there won't be any "other" generation.

Yockel it is very displeasurable to hear someone say that children are a lame excuse.

The only argument I hear from proponents of hmsxlty is to attack the faith - all I hear is "your faith", "your religion", "your God". This has nothing to do with religion, just like adultery has nothing to do with religion. Braking a promise is still bad in any culture or society. And acting against nature is likewise.

I never said anything to offend anyone personally or attack them.

On the contrary, I have given hope and the reason for this hope.

I reiterate again - Every single human is of more worth then any of us can fathom. When you look upon a human, you are looking at the greatest thing on this planet, unequaled, and un parralled. This is why I ask those who want to change and to know that this - hmsxlty - is wrong, that they have the POWER TO CHANGE PERMANENTLY.

My words don't offend anyone. They actually sow the seed in the hearts of others that they don't have to live a burdened life, full of remorse, and anxiety. That they can change anything about their (character). But in physical terms you are what you are - A human male or female - that is your nature and it dictates how you can behave and your nature is part of your character - you are an indivisible unit called HUMAN.

If you feel offended it is because you want to be offended.

Oh and bigotry is when someone is intolerant of someones elses opinion from his own.

It is not my opinion that I am talking about - I am talking about human nature - this is factual - and any one can observe and experience it for themselves.

Truth,

why do you abbreviate the word 'homosexual?'

the one thing you have right is that homosexuality need not be feared. though, you would do well to include yourself among those that do not fear homosexuality. free yourself pal.

as for overcoming homosexuality, i suppose some will make that choice, as is their right. though, i dont agree that it is your place or my place or the place of any municipality or government or church to overcome homosexuality. there is no evidence that jesus christ overcame it personally or within his community, so what in the name of judas grants you or anyone else the charge to do so, other than a huge dose of pride and bigotry?

homosexuals deserve the same rights as anyone else in our society. along with that, they deserve dignity and to know that there are more folks that want to afford them that dignity than folks that stand in judgment of them with hopes of tattooing a scarlet H on their foreheads.

truth, your words are actually quite refreshing in a peculiar way. its good to know the opposition and even better to know their position is groundless and based on mythology and faith rather than science, morals and compassion. knowing your position centers on the interpretation of an old book, translated many times, and compiled in less-informed times in our history gives me hope that a new generation that weighs facts and ethics over myths and tradition will make the world a better place for all people, including homosexuals.

It is unfortunate when "faith" masks fear and fear leads to aggression, especially when it is directed against vulnerable minorities. Christianity is no excuse for bullies.

Truth, people have pointed you to the consensus of psychiatrists and psychologists that homosexuality is not unhealthy. It's actually natural. We have observed homosexuality in some 1,500 species. In five hundred species, homosexuality has been closely studied. There is no evidence that homosexuality leads to anti-social (sinful) behavior.

Why don't you read the literature? It's not asked too much of a man who is a self-proclaimed Christian that he determine the facts before he passes judgment on others.

Christ reserved a special place in his heart for the persecuted. If Christ joined us today, he would embrace gay rights.

Christ did not ask us to run around in the world passing judgement on our neighbors. He asked us to love them.

And children are a lame excuse to justify your aggression against someone else's children, Truth. Somebody that you love is homosexual. You just don't know it yet because that loved one has reason to fear you.

Read the Sermon of the Mount until you get the part about love, Truth. God be with you.

nonibrahimic:

Strip all my posts of any religious references or ideas and you still have the same argument.

I open minded to any conversation. I can't find anyone to give a valid reason as to why hmsxlty isn't wrong.

This issue affects me profoundly because it deals with innocent people - children. I would rather defend innocent, pure, loving children then some adults who don't want to try to control themselves when they have every reason to do so.

You keep saying this is a matter of faith, it isn't, read my posts, take away the faith based references and you still have the same argument. Which no one addresses, because it can't be.

Hmslty is wrong, and anyone can change it! It is no more then thoughts and feelings that can be erradicated using the proper methods. No one needs to fear it, just overcome it.

Veritas & Truth:

I couldn't care two hoots about your beliefs. I don't subscribe to them. You can go and shout from the top of your roof (or even in the public square) about your faith and what your faith says about gays. That is your right. It is also my prerogative to yank your chain, (as the phrase goes.)

But when such beliefs of your co-believers (if not you) translate into actions that begin to curtail the rights of others (including gays) who either don't believe in, or are not of, your faith (and couldn't care less), it will be met with reaction in the very same public square. None of what these people are doing is infringing on your rights, perhaps only your sensibilities. But they don't have to care about it. So, paraphrasing it differently, mind your own beeswax, and ask your co-believers (or any believer of any belief system) to stop trying to legislate their/your/anybody's beliefs.

As for me, I will ignore your ad hominem attacks, since you don't know who I am.

It is also quite evident that a lot of people on this bboard are incapable of appreciating other frames of references in spirituality and philosophy, than just matters of blind faith, which I presume what this bboard was intended for. Perhaps I was too presumptuous. This is just another forum for proselytizing their faiths, some blatant, some subconscious.

I will sign off and go to "read" mode, if I ever come back.

But I must admit. It has been very amusing.

So long.

This is the hope I give to all hmsxl:

Don't you wish you didn't have those hmsxl thoughts? Don't you wish you didn't have to feel different than anyone else? Well you don't have to have any hmsxl thoughts or feelings. If you beleive and are determined to overcome this and live a life of happiness, self respect, and Joy, YOU CAN! Pray and Fast, and it will happen, I PROMISE YOU THIS. If you are a man you will begin to feel that natural attraction to a women, her feminity, her softness, her tenderness, your instinct will kick in and you mind will become magnetized again with that flow of romance and desire - your feelings of protection and of care will all be re-enlivened. If you are a women the same thing will happen - you will start to desire a man, you feel attracted to his masculinity, and desire to be protected and held by him, Your desire to nurture and have babies will rekindle where once there was only ashes.

You can regain your Confidence in life and be free. Come unto Christ. If you do not believe in Him. Then start by Fasting and praying or meditating. It is OK to cry and let out your frustrations as to why is this happening to me. With every tear you will heal, He will listen to you and strengthen you with a desire to be your true self.

I Testify to you that God lives. His son Jesus Christ is the savior and redeemer of this world. One human is worth more then this earth and every creature ever created on it. The family unit is the basic unit of society and will endure together as that of a mother and father - a male and female - enjoined in matrimony.

Taking someone's life is punishable by death in our society. The power to bring life into this world is just as sensitive and by God just as serious. These are powers that are entrusted to us to bring children into this world and give them a happy life. When someone plays with the power to take life - or - to give life, they are playing with the most intense fire. Let us be ware of how we use these powers - we will be held accountable.

Robin,
I guess in your rational - your genes and your actual physical parts are at odds?

Your genes to use your terms "select" you to be male or female. Is this not true? If you are a male then it is your nature to behave as one.

When I was talking about handicapps that also included people who are so violent that the "authorities" have excused them with the same rationale as "it is in their genes". Same as pedophiles, lyers, etc. No matter. There are infinite excuses for doing wrong - anything can be blamed on "my genes made me do it". The responsibility falls squarely on each one of us to take control of ourselves. Handicaps also include dyslexia and autism which both can be improved and comepletely overcome with the proper diet and program. So take control. To those who cannot there is help in Jesus Christ.

You speak of me giving false hope. But I at least give hope. You on the other hand condemn men to self destructive behavior, and reduce them to no more then beasts. You eclipse their hope and dreams, you condemn them.

Yes I give hope to all who will hear and read. Who will open their eyes. YOU DO NOT NEED TO LET ANYONE HOLD YOU DOWN. ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE WITH GOD. YOU CAN CHANGE ANYTHING ABOUT YOURSELF.

Whether it be a hmsxl, or a pedophile, or someone addicted to pornogrophy, or someone who has the propensity for violence and physical harm - MY DECLARATION and TESTIMONY is that who are of such great worth and potential that it is possible for you to do great and wonderful things - it all starts with the desire to be the masters of ourselves.

Marco Polo:
I never knew you knew Leonordo. I knew you spoke to him and heard from his lips that he was hmsxl. You probably read this from some gy author. Probably not the best place to get your info - else everyone who was great would turn out to be hmsxl.

I will give you a secret a key as to how anyone can overcome hmsxl behavior, pedophile attraction, rage, depression, self loathing, lying, fear, anything you want :

Jesus said : Howbeit this kind goeth not out but by prayer and fasting. (Matthew 17:21)

This is not only tied to the Christian religion - every single religion recommends this.

I know that if you sincerely try this you can overcome anything in your life. For that person who is scared of the thoughts and feelings that enter into them regarding hmsxlty or anything else - I PROMISE YOUE, if you but just try this you can regain your confidence and obtain the life you have always wanted - to be what you truly are!

Robin says:
"not gonna happen. You can....well you should be able to get the picture. When's the last time you saw a miricle of this stature? I would bet money on it being never. "

You infer that you are omniscient that you know the future, and that you know all things that occurring on this earth, and yet you don't beleive in God.

Let me tell you something, MIRACLES happen. Just like in ancient times. Except people don't run to the washington post to get them published. MIRACLES are for those who believe and trust in God.

Even you saw a miracle it doesn't mean you will trust in God. Seeing something is not trusting in it. Trusting requires a resolve of the heart not just the engagement of a sense such as sight.

I invite you and all people everywhere to just pray to God and see for yourself how you feel in your heart. He is our Father, He created us, and Sent Jesus Christ to redeem and exalt us.

Come unto me all who are weary and burdened, I shall give you rest (Matt: 11:28).

Truth:
You used a quote by Leonardo to rtionalize your own deluded argumen against homosexuality, yet did you know that Leonardo was gay himself? You're stabbing yourself in the leg my friend.

Truth

By your own admission.......*Oh and by the way - some people do have deficiencies in their genes - retards, handicapps, etc; That is why we rehabilitate them and care for them. We usually don't let them adopt kids - unless the can prove to care for them with love and affection and raise them up properly. So if you claim that hmsxl deficiency is related to a gene - it is just a handicapp, and many handicapps with the proper attitude it can be overcome!*

You can help a retarded person be more self sufficient but you cannot take away his/her retardation. You can help a handicapped person with various prostheis, guide dogs, books in braille etc, but you cannot give them back their limbs,eye sight etc.

You can help a homosexual understand and accept their different sexuality if they are having a problem about it, but you cannot make them straight.

We usually don't let anyone adopt children unless they prove they can love and take care of them properly. To bad that can't happen with some people who decide to procreate. IMO

Thats neither here nor there. The point is you can sit all day and night for many days, months, years and pray to your god to give an amputee back his legs, not gonna happen. Pray all day and night to give back the blind person their sight, not gonna happen. You can....well you should be able to get the picture. When's the last time you saw a miricle of this stature? I would bet money on it being never. You have read about them in that bible (by the way was written by men) of yours but how is it that God has not provided modern man any proof of his existence when in the bible he had no problem doing this over and over again?

Your reparative therapy only propetuates more confusion, self hatred and doesn't work in general. Those that think in your manner are only causing more harm than help. You offer false hope nothing more nothing less.

Your look in your pants theory doesn't wash either. That only explains gender and not what your genes/hormones necessarily elect you to be.

"nonibrahimic:
The argument that what is true for beasts does not apply to thinking cognitive animals does not hold any water at all, if you don't subscribe to ibrahimic religions."

No this is the funniest one of all. You probably failed science since kindergarten.

The only congitive animal, as you put it, is the Human. I don't know why use the plural form.

I guess you cannot clearly see that man is more heroic and compassionate then animals. The the law of humanity isn't - only the strongest will survie. No we humans build goverment, schools, hospitals, machines, all for the desire to improve and care for one another.

nonibrahimic I guess you think your an animal. Most people that act like one in our society get locked up, we confine them behind bars.

I hope you decide to be part of humanity by rising above the thought that you are comparable to an animal. You are of much more worth.

NONIBRAHIMIC & Concerned The Christian Now Liberated,

How ignorant and foolish people can be!!!

What you call the relationship between hmsxlty and a gene is purely conjectural (supposition,fancy) - meaning it is purely based on belief. It is the fancy of perverse men trying to justify their evils even using science!
I can conject anything I want - infact I can conject right now that you ........ I will refrain.

I have greater proof. Proof you and everyone can see. Proof no one in this blog or any scientist or anyone in the world can refute. YOUR GENDER IS FOR REAL. CHECK YOUR PANTS - BEHOLD YOUR GENITAL - IT IS YOUR NATURE! Can you deny this? This is SCIENCE, a particular branch called biology!

Can't you see how foolish people have become. Why do trust in mortal men to tell you what is right. Do you not know and understand that any scientist can be bought for the price of money - to write any report I wish him to write for the purpose of justifying my position. How do think these people are funded?

How many countless theories are never proven and discarded. Why? Because theories are speculations not based on facts or descriptions of reality. Let alone conjectures which are pure beliefs. You believe more in men, more in research you have never done for yourself, nor in any evidence or tests you have experienced or seen, you believe but mere words, without evidence. Who is the sheep?

Get into Reality. You deny what you are and incline your ears to finite man for something so critical.

You have all the proof in this world, you can see for yourself - you have your own bodies that stand as testimony against you!

The women ovulates for a very specific purpose. A man ejaculates for a very specific purpose. This is our nature.

The romance between a man and women is part of the nature of who we are, for the specific purpose of begetting children and raising them.

Please let go of what vexes you and holds you chained - to your own carnal desires.

Oh and by the way - some people do have deficiencies in their genes - retards, handicapps, etc; That is why we rehabilitate them and care for them. We usually don't let them adopt kids - unless the can prove to care for them with love and affection and raise them up properly. So if you claim that hmsxl deficiency is related to a gene - it is just a handicapp, and many handicapps with the proper attitude it can be overcome!

You will never have a greater or lesser dominion than that over yourself. The height of a man's success is gauged by his self-mastery; the depth of his failure by his self-abandonment. And this law is the expansion of eternal justice. -Leonardo Da Vinci

Discussion on this board has gone in many different directions.

Some, who are predominantly proponents of "gay culture" have emphasized parabolicism in their arguments and have prasied Tutu for that.

Question is not "if gay culture is right or wrong". Question is "if gay culture is/was endorsed by Jesus".

Why proponents of "gay culture" need endorsement from Jesus?

Bible clearly communicates opinion and views of Jesus about wicked and adultrous.

Then some of the Pharisees and teachers of the law said to him, ‘Teacher, we want to see a miraculous sign from you.’ He answered, ‘a wicked and adulterous generation asks for a miraculous sign! But none will be given it except the sign of the prophet Jonah. For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of a huge fish, so the Son of Man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. The men of Nineveh will stand up at the judgment with this generation and condemn it; for they repented at the preaching of Jonah, and now one greater than Jonah is here.’ (Matt 12:38–41)

If it is known and observed through out history that Humans have always used eye to watch and ears to hear, and if it is common experience still in these days. Then if someone comes and claim that such and such people used to watch with ears and hear with eyes then burden of proof is on him.

Archbishop Tutu,
Thank you for your sense and compassion in putting this issue in the correct perspective!

Veritas vos Liberabit:

For the latest studies on biology and homosexuality, go to the Medline search engine, http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/gw/Cmd and enter gene AND homosexuality.

NONIBRAHIMIC said,

"It is quite evident that there is some biological basis for homosexuality" (NONIBRAHIMIC)

Please tell me what proof you have? You believe this by faith. There is no proof. I hate sin because it destroys people's lives. I have no problem with saying that. I am not controlled by the politically correct machine like you are. Political Correctness is your god. I pray you would know the true God who gives life through His Son Jesus Christ.

I am a Christian.

I find that in this discussion, the reasoned, calm responses are coming from the open minded people who support human rights (including rights for people of all sexual orientations), whether the respondent is Christian or not.

However, I find that many who proclaim themselves a Christian are saying things that go against all of the teachings of Jesus to love one another and to take care of any who are oppressed.

You may call yourself a Christian all you want, but if your actions do not reflect the loving teachings of Jesus, you will have to excuse me for wondering if you understand what you claim to believe.

I can not judge your sincerity, but I can look at how you treat others and see how that matches the examples Jesus gave us through His life.

Alan, your insult is old and tired. Not that I'm complaining...it's easier to fight a weak opponent. However, this "Freudian slip" line of attack is one I have no heard from Christians yet - Freudian is, after all, I fairly long word, much too long for more Christians to be comfortable with. If the "slip" my friend made is to be attributed to anything, it is most likely the result of his editing his comment for content...that is the most likely cause, and the second most likely is that Christians/Moslems/Hindus/Jews or some other adherents have taught him unhappiness. I'll leave it at that, though, because I dislike sticking up for others when they are perfectly capable of sticking up for themselves. Such teamwork does nothing for the strength of the mind engaged in the political arena.

I have a feeling that, were I to meat Mr. Tutu, that I would feel extremely ambivalent towards him; he is clearly open-minded enough that he must be intelligent, compassionate enough that he must be confident, and well educated as he is so correct in his thinking about homosexuals. However, to combine his religion with a progressive, liberal movement is an affront to anyone who ever honestly and intelligently sought to bring liberty to their brothers and sisters. Combining religion with gay rights might be the most expedient way to justice, but it is not the most constructive; it could only inject new life into a contraption that should have fallen to disuse long ago. Even if religion were a fellow activist alongside atheism in the fight against homophobia, there are many other injustices that religion can perpetrate through the hands of faithful itinerants.

The biology connection to homosexuality cannot be overlooked with respect to how religion judges homosexuality.

See Medline for an update. http://gateway.nlm.nih.gov/gw/Cmd

....It would be bizarre in the extreme for a person to choose to be gay or lesbian in a set-up that is so homophobic....I believe that (homosexual)sexual orientation is as much a given as ethnicity or gender. -- Desmond Tutu

It's kind of bizarre and extreme that people overdose themselves on drugs. It is also bizarre and extreme that some people have sex with animals. It is bizarre and extreme that people strap explosives on and blow themselves up killing children and adults who they don't even know. Using Mr. Tutu logic we would have to conclude that people are born as drug addicts; others are born with a sexual orientation toward animals; and some people are born with a love for explosives and suicidal behavior. How many things are bizarre yet people do them anyway and then claim they have no ability to control their thinking or their actions? Those with explosive belts are very likely to say it was something they were called to do. It is one thing to argue over if someone is or is not a homo and if being a homo is wrong but to then tell them with such certainty that they were born that way is to assume much. If you are wrong, then you unfairly condemn these people by taking away all hope for a cure and deceive them into believing they can not be healed, even by the power of God. This is awful. You ignore what is in your Bible and then make all these assumption with such confidence. If you are wrong, then you denigrate and oppress an already persecuted minority.

It cracks me up to read all the contortions in logic that the "christians" go thru to justify their prejudices, couching them in language like "Hate the sin, not the sinner".

It is quite evident that there is some biological basis for homosexuality. The argument that what is true for beasts does not apply to thinking cognitive animals does not hold any water at all, if you don't subscribe to ibrahimic religions. So, from my perspective, it is bigotry, pure and simple, and intellectually dishonest, to boot.

C, your Freudian slip near the end of your confession reveals quite a bit. :P

What a wise, compassionate article. I felt cleaner having read it. That was, until I started glancing through some of the readers' responses below.

I'm sure glad that I wasn't born a homosexual - what a difficult load to bear in this society. I happen to think that this earth would be a lot better off if there were more homosexuals on it - fewer unplanned babies would help alleviate many problems for humans and the environment in this time of overpopulation.

Truth:

I spent the better part of my high school and college years going against my "inclinations," praying, discussing, and then wishing away that part of me which I and my faith did not agree with. Despite what many think, it just does not work. I don't know anyone - Christian or not - who would prefer to be homosexual. They would more than prefer to not follow through with their "inclinations" - they would much rather not have them at all. Would prefer heterosexual "inclinations." Would prefer to be "normal" and accepted, with conventional families and relationships.

You can believe what you want, but I spent seven long years in hell trying for that preferred life, and I finally made peace with myself and gave in. My "inclinations" have led me to a wonderful partner in a wonderful place where I can finally return to myself. I don't know what I believe in, but I do not that I believe this is a real happiness I have, and I believe that that happiness is that "good reason" you're looking for.

Alan:
What's with the liberal term? Is that an insult? Since when is having an open mind a bad thing? Being termed a liberal just because I choose to think for myself is kind of shoddy, don't you think? Of course I could always hit back at you, which I am not above.

You Republican

USING YOUR LOGIC: YOU MUST BE RUNNING AWAY!!!!! YOU'RE GETTING TOO EMOTIONAL!!!!!!!!!!!!

I love liberal logic and double standards!

I have some business to attend to, but I will respond to your (entirely weak) "arguement" later.

So let me see...

If I agree with an opposing point of view I am an apologist...

Religous people are accused of absolutism yet you have no problem of using the term "most certainly" to describe a person whom you have not known, heard or seen.

Such "tolerance" is eye-opening.

Truth probably left because the rebuttals weren't worth his or her time. The latter statement is probably closer to the truth than the above posted emotional argument.

Ahh, an apologist. Well, Christians are never in short supply of those. "Truth" most certainly did run away, and not because he was failing to convert me, either. Rather, he ran away because he was getting too emotional, just the weakness he accused me of.

Actually, "Truth" is not running away. One says what he or she believes in to those who choose to listen. If the audience does not wish to accept the message then it is quite acceptable to simply walk away. Rock on Truth.

Truth: Go ahead and run away, tossing insults where you can as you go! You know that I speak more powerfully than you do, and so you are frustrated, and retreat! You claim that my thoughts were schizophrenic, but it was yours that were schizophrenic and so your words were boring!

Veritas vos Liberabit: These delusions you have given voice to make me sad. It is clear to me that internally you hate yourself because you have had homosexual thoughts and you fear some god for the same reason...If only you would accept yourself, then your fears would be assuaged and pleasure would wash over you like the warm water: the pleasure of self-acceptance, which is relaxation. Give up the memorized words which hurt you so, please! It is as if you are my son; I feel your grief, your terror, and I wish that you were free of it! Join me in my enlightenment, and you shall find relief!

Im sorry are you referring to fundamentalist liberals or fundamentalist Christians?

Please specify.

This thread is dead. My final note:

Your only reason to follow hmsxl thoughts or feelings is because you want to. You don't even want to try to change, when you have the help of your body to tell you what you are. You are so focused on this that is all consuming.

I feel sorry for you.

No one has given any good reason why people follow hmsxl inclinations, and yet they want to change our laws to accomodate them.

No one has given any, not one good reason other then because "I feel it", "I am attracted", etc.

We all have things we are attracted to and feel and want, except we aren't afraid to control them, and not be controlled by them.

Hmsxl is wrong, clearly wrong, it is as plain as whatever genital sits in your pants or skirt - something you cannot deny, that is part of you, and makes you who you are. That is the TRUTH that beckons you to return to your true self.

To be free!

If you need help ask Jesus Christ, He can, wants, and will help you.

Goodbye.

I'm so tired of fundamentalists. Don't you tire of yourselves, too? Sigh.

Homosexuality is un-natural and sinful. When a culture embraces it God's judgment on that culture will follow. I pray that God will have mercy on our nation because it is ripe for judgment. Jesus is merciful and will forgive and change anyone who repents of this decadant behavior.

"For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error" (Romans 1:26-27).

Free to do what? To impregnate a woman? My dear friend, I have no desire to impregnate a woman, and I can't think of any reason why I should want to. It is you that is in need of freedom, for you are so absorbed by your own religion that you look at the evolutionarily advantageous process of procreation and call it freedom! (freedom being a state far too valuable to be invoked so carelessly)

No doubt, as a Christian, I have love for all. Even those who are gay, but I think Bishop Tutu missed the mark when he said:

"In every instance that we have in the Gospels, Jesus sides with those who are discriminated against, who are persecuted. It seems a bizarre hermeneutics that would assert that in this one case, that of gay and lesbian persons, Jesus would join those who persecute, denigrate and oppress an already persecuted minority."

There is one problem with that thinking. Yes, Jesus sided with those discriminated but he did not say what they were doing was right. When he ran into a prostitute he didn't say "go on and keep doing what you are doing." Jesus mission was restorative, which meant that when he "sided" with someone he wanted them to be restored to the original vision of God: back to the Garden of Adam and Eve. Jesus he loved them so much he wanted them to experience wholeness in God. He had love for that person, but also called them to accountability (i.e. the woman at the well, Zacheeus, the Rich Young Ruler, etc...) Just because homosexuality has become an accepted life style in the last 20 years (in secular world) does not mean that Christian doctrine has to follow.

My heart goes out to those struggling to define their sexuality. At the same time, others struggle with other identity, personal, and psychological issues but it seems that homosexuality is one that is looked at as being "the way I was made".

Anonymous,
You have the right to feel whatever you want.

This doesn't change what you are - a human who has a cardinal attribute, gender, dictating what you can and can't do. No matter what you think or feel - it doesn't change what you are - Male or Female - and that your genitals serve a specific function - biology.

To go against your very own nature is not correct. To try to raise children in setting that is contrary to natural structure of the family is destructive.

Some of us don't have the inclination for hmsxl attraction or behavior. Just like some of us have no problem being peaceful, faithful, etc, but we all of us have some weakness or another.

I want you to realize that you can be free!

Truth: A cliché of a name you have there. Ever have I seen Christians employing it haphazardly, and it's use is never followed by the substance it has promised. It is you who worship yourself as evidenced by your seeing me as you see yourself; in one fell swoop you admit that judgementalness is undesirable and you exhibit it, altogether missing the fact that I might ascribe no moral value to it. Were you on my side of the fence an emotional tantrum is the only way YOU could see yourself saying what I've said, but I had a higher purpose in mind...that of saving you from your madness. Were that you were on my side, defensiveness could be your only motive, while mine is offensiveness; your kind cannot take from me anything that I could be said to hold dear because I have accepted the eventuality of hardships and death and have realized that as long as I freely think whatever I want there are no freedoms you could be said to be capable of taking from me.

Truth:

Assuming you are a heterosexual male/female and going under the presumption, as you have so decidedly pointed out, that it is all a matter of choice; I wonder if you could tell me whether YOU could choose to love/have sexual feelings for someone of the same sex. Under your notion, that is very plausible.

My guess is...NO. Hmmm...

How can people who have the weakness or inclination towards hmsxlty change when nobody gives them a chance to change.

They are attacked on both sides.

On one hand If someone says or tells their parents, friends, neighbors their feeling or that they have thoughts of hmsxlty - the majority of people's response is disgust and condemnation. This is wrong and idiotic. People who have hmsxl weakness then feel fear, and that fear lessens the power over themselves - it dilutes resolve until it eventually replaces it. To change anything about ourselves requires confidence that we can, or else we never try, and thus never succeed.

On the other hand you have idiots telling them they can't change. That: that is how they are. This is crippling to those who do not want to be like this. Just like telling an alchoholic or womenizer or "insert whatever you want", or abuser, or lyer, or pedophile - that they can't change. This is dispicable. Shame on those who like crabs in a crate pull others down and don't let them rise above their own mediocrity

I have seen people change and become happy in the most sincere way - with any weakness, which we all have.

No one needs to be afraid of hmxsl thoughts or feelings. These are bubbles in the sea of casualty in life. They can be replaced by other thoughts and feelings. We just have to have the desire and resolve to change. We have the capacity to control our thoughts and feelings and even influence our environment.

If you say we can't you don't even understand the society you are living in - USA - is found upon this basic principle - we are our own masters.

What we need to do is help these people.

Again this is nonsense:
"I doubt that. I doubt that you'll find any gay man or woman that sees themselves as having a condition that can be changed. "

Don't believe this trash. Anyone with any degree of reason could see by the observation of thier own thoughts that they have the power to control them.

Those who don't want to control themselves are not the best examples of humanity - they lower themselves to beasts, to follow every whim, caprice, impulse, every urge which enters thier hearts and minds, they serve their passions and are slaves to their weaknesses. Subdue yourself.

All of us have the power to be what we ought to be MEN and WOMEN, it is our choice.

NEVER FEAR. Don't be afraid of whatever enters your mind and heart. You are not thoughts and feelings. You have the choice to keep the ones you want to erradicate the ones you don't want. This is why a pedophile or an adulterer or homosexual, or anyone can change. Our feelings and attractions belong to us, we are their masters. That is what makes us Human and greater then the beasts!

"In vain do they talk of happiness who never subdued an impulse in obedience to a principle. He who never sacrificed present to a future good, or a personal to a general one, can speak of happiness only as the blind speak of color."
-Horace Mann

OK - re: homosexuality as a choice, rather than an immutable predisposition, let's wait and see how long Ted Haggard sticks with his recent "return" to exclusive heterosexuality ... unless, of course, his handlers have spirited him away into permanent seclusion, and we'll never see or hear from him again.

Where are you getting all this stuff Truth? Homosexuality is a vice? Like smoking? Are you that deluded in your own self denial that you can't see the world around you and realize that you could be wrong?

Were you once gay but then repented? I doubt that. I doubt that you'll find any gay man or woman that sees themselves as having a condition that can be changed.

Truth:
Your proof is nowhere to be found, you basically sidestepped an answer. You a politician?

This is a prime example of disengaged and skitzophrenic scrabble. Emotion and no reason. Based on nothing but defensiveness:

"
ANONYMOUS
"Failures, the lot of you who have used anti-gay rhetoric, damned to disappoint your god that you have distracted yourself from your own failures by ridiculing others and relieved yourselves of cowardice by attributing one most punishable of sins - judgery- to an intrepid god-parent who cannot assist you because he does not exist. Though you may be too ineffectual to secure your safety yourself, leaving the task to an imaginary leader-savior will see you all the less prepared when danger closes in on you."
"

You one the prize for contradiction. Aren't you judging in this post?

You can't secure your own safety - unless you are claiming to be God. I think you worship yourself.

Anyone can change, control, refrain, and master themselves. Hmsxlty is nothing more then a vice that can be overcome.

Failures, the lot of you who have used anti-gay rhetoric, damned to disappoint your god that you have distracted yourself from your own failures by ridiculing others and relieved yourselves of cowardice by attributing one most punishable of sins - judgery- to an intrepid god-parent who cannot assist you because he does not exist. Though you may be too ineffectual to secure your safety yourself, leaving the task to an imaginary leader-savior will see you all the less prepared when danger closes in on you.

Mr. Tutu wonders, "Why are we generating so much heat over this issue...?"

The answer is obvious. The Republican revolution of the last decade was built on gay bashing and fear mongering. Whenever things look bad for Republicans, homophobia is their trump card. It's as simple as that: we hear a lot about it because Republicans know it is an issue that will keep their voters in line.

nowhere does "Bishop" Tutu mention the topic of sin. Jesus sought sinners but he would always say "go and sin no more" or "your sins are forgiven".

By ignoring the topic of sin ( the real "incovenient truth") as it relates to homosexual practice,, Tutu's image as a disciple of Christ is lost.

Brutus,
I have given you enough proof. Proof that we can both observe. Take it one step further and experience it. Pray and converse with God.

It becomes a wonderful journey to taste the proof.

Learn the principle, enter into the principle, master the principle, dissolve the principle.

We are the masters of our characters. We can harness ourselves and bring every thought, feeling, and inclination into subjection to our true self.

Truth:

Prove to me there's a God. Where is the proof? Is the proof that I sit here writing this? Hardly. That is not the proof. Give me something more concrete, because if you can't come up with anything more than what you've already said, than you have no proof.

I may not have proof there is no God, but there is also no proof that there is a god.

Remeber this: before christianity was accepted, mankind belived in many gods. were they wrong? Was their belief system jacked? I don't know, but I do know they were a lot happier than most people today, because their Gods allowed more than your God ever did.

A heterosexual man might be struggling with attractions to other women. He might be in "love" with another woman. Shouldn't he discipline himself not to run after his attractions? Sadly this is not the case anymore either. There are bigger issues than homosexuality. What happened to selflessness? "I will give up my happiness in order to care for this person." Such a statement is blasphemy in our hyper-individualistic society. Homosexuals also have a high rate of separation, it might be even higher, so don't go there.

Homosexuality is not what is hurting this nation. It is the overwhelming selfishness that has ingrained itself in our consumer driven society. We are a nation of lawyers, not lovers.

Christians, leave non-Christian homosexuals alone. They cannot be convinced of their sin if they don't have a concept of sin. We live in a nation of religious freedom. Just because Christianity dominates here does not mean we impose it on the nation. What if Muslims became the majority? Should they do the same? Christians would be in uproar.

Non-Christian pro-homosexuals, leave Christians alone. It is written explicitly in the New Testament.

Christians, Christ himself broke the Sabbath. His will was to show that His love overcomes His law. There is no sin that Christ is fearful of, so don't worry so much about him. He can handle it.

"This new command I give you: love one another as I have loved you"(not"AS YOURSELF" we're going way beyond the golden rule)

Christ was the embodiment of selflessness. Of love. That message of selflessness is what everyone is fighting against. It makes me sad.

CHOICE,
YOUR STATEMENT IS SIMPLE AND BEAUTIFUL. THANK YOU.

A long time ago I figured I either had to adhere to the message of Jesus, one of simple love, compassion and tolerance, or the message of the "Christ" as it was amplified, distorted and sometimes perverted at the hands of his apostles, successors, and other followers.

Christianity has been so convoluted over the millenia that it bears little resemble to the true message of Jesus. I love and follow Jesus, but have nothing but distrust and suspicion for the Christ.

There is no choice in my life it has all been determined. How high and mighty of you to proclaim that people can change their orientation or reframe from anything. I drink too much. It is not a sin because I can't stop drinking after 3 DWI's. God made me to love alcohol. I am also married and love other women. I can not stop my adultery and so it is not a sin either. This is just the way God made me. I like little boys around the age of 14. This is just the way God made me. If God made me this way, then it must not be a sin. To have choices in life would be interesting but since none of this stuff is a sin, who needs choice?

Good Morning to everyone.

I have read some of the posts and will give you my synopsis.

you have more faith in your assumptions then I have ever had in God. You, with no evidence whatsoever give your opinions as to be the truth. Robin even goes far enough to refer to institutions for the base of her argument. These institutions are run and made by mortal people who can't guarantee you anything - who like all other institutions make errors and run based on their own personal interests. This is one issue where you shouldn't stand on someone else’s shoulders. Think for yourself and draw your own conclusions. My faith is incorporated with reason, logic, and science. I have proof - your own body. Those who are posting here to the contrary have nothing - but their own assumptions and fallacies.

Some people keep referring to other species' nature and thus behavior. People please look in the mirror and understand that you belong to the species man. Have you ever seen a pair of women or men beget a baby??? Then they have no reason or business having a family, trying to adopt children, etc. How hard can this be to understand - you are not a penguin, an arthropod, an insect, an ape, you are MAN. Of the species human. We have no business discussing other species because we are talking about humans. If this were a thread about penguins then our discussion would be different.

Let me repeat something:

Nature is not relative. If we couldn't count on nature to behave according to it's properties and functions - then how in this world could we count on gasoline combusting at a certain temperature - to drive our cars, fly our planes, or if we couldn't count on electricity flowing consistently throw metal when a circuit is complete, then how could we have our computer chips, cell phones, etc. If we couldn't count on Tylenol (acetaminophen) reducing pain then why would anyone take it? What if the earth didn't spin on its access every 24 hours, imagine 6am would be relative. Nature is absolute; the sun rises every single morning, on time. Look in the mirror. Our advancement is because we have objectively come to understand the nature of certain elements, plants, animals, etc. We have learned to harness these by understanding their natures. Human's have a specific nature. If you say this is not true then we have nothing further to discuss - because to deny that we have a specific nature would be to deny all of science, faith, and reason.

Again and again all I hear are conclusions you have all arrived upon based on nothing but someone telling you or you saying something like "I can see" "I can imagine" "I believe". And constantly referring to "most people" "other people" - as if you knew and understood all people. Your religion and your gods are your own opinions, sadly based on no kind of evidence presented to any of your faculties or senses. I have as a witness every branch of science and the entire universe to denote that there is a God. My Faith is based on evidence. Your belief is based on nothing.

Oh and by the way - just because it is between two consenting adults doesn't make it right. When these two consenting adults make the awful decision to adopt a baby they are making a choice for that baby, to live within a group that is contrary to the family unit prescribed by nature, by God.

Come on! please! You are evening coming up with your own terms "gayness". I guess now according to you, there are degrees of hmsxlty. I guess there are degrees to lyers, maybe we should make up a word to describe their "lyningness".

No one hates hmsxls. I don't hate a person that lies or do anything which affects society. But I do stand up and defend the basic values and morals that have made every lasting society endure. Do I think hmsx is a crime, of course not, just like adultery isn't, I still can't understand based on this reasoning why someone would accept hmxs and not plural marriage? Makes no sense at all. That is why this is totally twisted for someone to tell me hmsx is right and yet say plural marriage is wrong? That kind of person is living in contradiction. That is sad.

I do think that when hmsxl's decide to adopt a child or get children involved - that is a crime. They are making a choice for that child. If they do not have the power to beget children then they have no business and reason adopting one.

The Truth is self evident. Why is it so hard to understand? None of these posts address any of my points. Simple because my points are objective. You and I can both perceive them, sense them, and understand them. The TRUTH stares YOU in the face. You are what you are. No one in this earth can refute this.

You can change anything about yourself. You can be and live harmoniously with your body. According to your nature. This is happiness! You can be happy and be your true self – according to your nature.

May God bless us to come to grips with reality. To understand that family is the basic unit of society, and when that is attacked, society is attacked. No one lives in a vacuum. We all occupy the same society and our decisions influence one another. I want to make this country better, by self sacrifice, discipline, pure love, unselfishness, and humility.

Truth:
You want substance, ok.

I have read your posts and I have read other posts, and you seem to spout the same thing over and over again with an underlying point:Jesus will help you. that's fine if you choose to believe it, I don't have a problem with it. Whatever gets you out of bed and through the day, but the problem comes when people start to bring it to me. Why do you feel the need to preach it to me? Cause it was said in the Bible? Go unto them and preach? there's a fine line between preach and breach my friend. When talking religion, remember that.

as for the whole homosexuality aspect of this post. Got one for everybody. Whether you choose to admit it or not, at one point in your lives you have had a homosexual thought. Maybe you acted on it, maybe you didn't. So what. That's not the point. The point is attraction. If we find something attractive, we want it, whether it is a person of the opposite sex or the same sex.
and I have said this before on a different post, but I'll say it here again: Being Gay is not a sin, hating someone BECAUSE they are gay is the real sin.

For Truth, Jon Switzer, Anonymous and so on, I guess what I really meant to say is: Worry about your own souls and salvation, because ultimately, you too will be judged for your condemnations of something which you obviously have NO personal emotional experience with.

How high and mighty of you to proclaim that people can change their orientation, as if it is just a matter of carnal desires. Again, I will point out, that the folks who seem most devoted to concerning themselves with what other people are doing in their bedrooms.. are the ones who seem to have the most problems with their own sexuality.

I will pray for all of you, that someday you find some real spiritual compassion. I am quite certain we do not believe in the same God, for my God created me with a purpose and loves me just as I am.

If we are talking about Jesus, perhaps it would be helpful to use the story of the woman caught in adultery.
First, Jesus asked the one without sin to throw the first stone and everyone left.
Second, Jesus asked, where are your accusors?
Third, Jesus said, go and sin no more.

Clearly Jesus was offering her mercy. Mercy means that she is not given what she deserves. He offers mercy because according to the Old Testament law she deserved death. Mercy is not a change from the Old Testament law. The law was still in effect. It is still in effect for those who are lawbreakers. However, mercy and grace shows that God forgives and blesses despite the fact that we are sinful.

So, go and sin (practice homosexuality) no more. Jesus gives you Mercy and Grace.

Jude 1
3 Dear friends, I had been eagerly planning to write to you about the salvation we all share. But now I find that I must write about something else, urging you to defend the faith that God has entrusted once for all time to his holy people. 4 I say this because some ungodly people have wormed their way into your churches, saying that God’s marvelous grace allows us to live immoral lives. The condemnation of such people was recorded long ago, for they have denied our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ.
5 So I want to remind you, though you already know these things, that Jesus[b] first rescued the nation of Israel from Egypt, but later he destroyed those who did not remain faithful. 6 And I remind you of the angels who did not stay within the limits of authority God gave them but left the place where they belonged. God has kept them securely chained in prisons of darkness, waiting for the great day of judgment. 7 And don’t forget Sodom and Gomorrah and their neighboring towns, which were filled with immorality and every kind of sexual perversion. Those cities were destroyed by fire and serve as a warning of the eternal fire of God’s judgment.

Truth,

"Nature is not relative", "Hmsxlty is against nature. It is a lie."

Yet it's been observed to this day in more than 100 different species. I guess Satan thought that Hell was lacking penguins so he decided to pervert them too, right?
That homosexuality doesn't constitute the norm and is fairly minoritary doesn't make it any less part of the range of "natural" behaviours.

"If nature was relative than we wouldn't have medicines, technology, or anything."

I don't see what you mean with this one.

"You keep speaking as if you know that our sexual inclinations cannot be changed, controlled, and harnessed. Please don't tell these lies to recovering pedophiles, or to those who practice bestiality and want to change."

I can see the college girl that experiments, makes out with other girls at frat parties cuz it's now trendy and cool, etc. "change" back to perfect heterosexuality, get married with a man and live a happy life. I believe homosexuality is a mix of nature and nurture. The "level of gayness" for one person to another will vary and some could change and be happy with a man or a woman. Some other people NEVER will be able to feel romantic love for someone of the opposite sex and be happy with them.

Gay people in a relationship (or just having fun) are consenting and none of them is psychologically harmed in any way. With beastiality, mutual consent cannot be made and the victim of pedophilia, even manipulated into some form of consent, is psychologically harmed. These 2 behaviors can't be compared in any way with homosexuality.

"To reach your full potential as a human being, behaving according to your nature. EVERYONE CAN BE HAPPY, but happiness has a specific nature!"

I agree with this sentence with the "specific nature" part of it meaning "being with someone you're able to love, be happy with and with whom you can have a stable long term relationship".

To Anonymous:
More than likely Jesus did not condemn slavery because doing so would have brought to much attention from the "worldly authorities" the Romans who had a very nasty habit of eliminating radical groups who acted against the status quo. To have condemned slavery as condemning taxes paid to Rome would have put him front and center in the Roman crosshairs, which was not really his intention.

I find it rather hard to believe that some of the posters have a complete understanding of God since God would not even allow Moses to view him. God exists far beyond our ability to comprehend. It would seem to be the height of arrogance to put God in a box.

My co-anonymous

Did this "God" you mention ever reveal his or her plan for our sex lives to any one or is it a conjecture by you, part of your myth-making?

Mr. Tutu

Why did the god you created out of a man, Jesus, never condemn slavery?

Why are we generating so much heat over this issue at a time when the world is groaning under the burden of dehumanizing poverty, when disease -- especially HIV/Aids -- is devastating whole communities, when conflicts are sowing mayhem and carnage?

Why???:

Because much poverty, HIV, disease, broken marriage, divorce and human suffering are caused by our sexual drive and conduct and how we live up or fail to live up to God's plan for sex lives. That is why sexual morals matter. And this is a huge discussion with far reaching consequences for the human race.

The people get it, does the Bishop?

Just to clarify. I did not personally write that above. I copied and pasted it from a Human Rights Campaign website.

Truth,

The American Medical Association (AMA), the American Psychological Association (APA), the American Association of Pediatrics (AAP), and every other major scientific and medical group has come out in opposition to so-called “reparative” and “conversion” therapies.

The APA’s statement stressed that “reparative therapy” is not benign and that it often has deleterious effects. According to the statement, “The potential risks of ‘reparative therapy’ are great, including depression, anxiety and self-destructive behavior, since therapist alignment with societal prejudices against homosexuality may reinforce self-hatred already experienced by the patient. Many patients... were inaccurately told that homosexuals are lonely, unhappy individuals who never achieve acceptance or satisfaction. The possibility that the person might achieve happiness and satisfying interpersonal relationships as a gay man or lesbian is not presented, nor are alternative approaches to dealing with the effects of societal stigmatization discussed... the APA opposes any treatment, such as ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy which is based on the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based on a prior assumption that the patient should change his/her sexual orientation.”

Those groups prey on those who haven’t come to understand that being gay does not have to mean living in a place of hurt and loneliness. Gay men and lesbians live full, complete, and healthy lives. “Ultimately, the difference between gays and ex-gays is like the difference between cheese and cheddar. The ex-gays try to drown their homosexuality in Bible verses, marriage, family, and their own new subcultural niche, but their homosexuality remains... Everything in their lives revolves around homosexuality and avoiding it... It’s disturbing to realize that these groups know that the best they can do is suppress a person’s sexual orientation, and yet they hold out an entire industry catered to ‘curing’ homosexuality.”

Now how is it I am delusional? Where is my lack of understanding?

Truth,

Can you, will you, answer one question for me?

Why is it that some verses in the bible are to be followed or taken literally and some are to be passed over and ignored?

In this area I do lack understanding. Perhaps you would be willing to enlighten me. Or maybe your right and I am delusional.

Either way I am interested in knowing the answer to that. If you would be so kind.

Or maybe one of you other bible scholars could answer it for me, if he chooses to pass on it?

Christians are always good for a laugh. Here is what the OT says about the subject and I believe the OT is considered to be the words of God:

Lev. 20:13 If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them

Lev. 18:22 Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.

If God exist he is probably crying because of the lies Mr. Tutu wrote.

GLEN tells us: There are many sins. Just to name a few: Fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, covetousness, idolatry, murder, adultery, stealing, and yes, homosexual behavior. The Bible is very clear about these all being sins.

ANN O. replies: I don't think that the Bible is at all clear about homosexuality. So far as I it never even mentions lesbian relationships. so I can't say "the Bible condems homosexuality". But I do think it is obvious that at least some of the writers of the Bible thought that God was prohibiting *something*. The question is: what?

(What follows is not very politically correct. If you require such correctness, you can quit reading now.)

I suspect the issue is really sodomy, which as I understand it is the preferred male homosexual practice but which is *not* limited to homosexuals. Might there be good reason for such a prohibition? I must say that the AIDS catastrophe makes me wonder. If it is fundamentally dangerous, then it is a moral issue.

Ann O.

Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

"I don't know if it is my Christian upbringing or just something innately built into my psyche but gay unions are very disturbing."

Maybe I can guess why: Thinking about two men or two women having sex gives you a creepy feeling. This is natural. It happens to a lot of people. But think about this: It gives _them_ a creepy feeling when they think about a man and a woman doing it.

Listen, everybody does it funny to someone. Don't think about it. It's none of your business. Do you think about your friends doing it? Think rather about good and beautiful people being persecuted because of who they love.

Truth, Brambleton, et al.,

Don't you know that homosexuality is just another angle on love? Who do you think you are, coming out against love? How do you think God feels about that?

"It is not natural for "me"."

Here is the evidence of your delusional state and lack of understanding.

Nature is not relative. Does a tree all of a sudden start acting like a bird? Or does a ape begin to act like a dolphin ... it is not in it's nature to do so. If nature was relative than we wouldn't have medicines, technology, or anything.

You keep speaking as if you know that our sexual inclinations cannot be changed, controlled, and harnessed. Please don't tell these lies to recovering pedophiles, or to those who practice bestiality and want to change.

You provided an example of a person who almost committed suicide out of pressure from his family. What does this have to do with hmsxlty? This happens to people who do drugs, who have a baby out of wedlock, etc. That is a family issue.

No one said that anyone wants to make people change. Change comes from within. It is a choice. Just like an alcholic decides to stop drinking, or any criminal decides to reform, or a parent decides to start paying attention to their children. But the truth is self evident - your sexuality is associated to your nature, your gender. I embrace every kind of person but if someone is a lier or a thief I cannot turn a blind eye to this. I must let them know that this is wrong for them and for others. It is the same with hmsxlty.

Hmsxlty is against nature. It is a lie. It can be overcome, and doesn't need to be feared by anyone. It is the same as any weakness of character anyone else has.

"People that are born the way they are"

You are abolutely right. A human male is a male. A human female is a female. Your gender is a attribute of your nature and it dictates how you can behave - sexually, physically, etc.

You cannot refute any of my points. I hope that others that read these posts understand that they can be free, it is their choice.

Just because this young man couldn't change when he tried doesn't mean that he can't change.

I know of others who have changed and feel all the better being true to what and who they are.

When buddha was trying to overcome the flaws of his character he fasted, meditated, and prayed. Try this.

There are various venues to elevate yourself and overcome weaknesses. To reach your full potential as a human being, behaving according to your nature. EVERYONE CAN BE HAPPY, but happiness has a specific nature!

I know that through Jesus Christ we can become better and receive the power and conviction we need to face the challenges and inclinations we have in our lives.

This nation is built upon the principle of choice. The right to choose. It is the greatest lie on this earth that you can choose to change what you already are. Sadly humans are the only ones that make this mistake.

This nation is embracing license not tolerance, where everything is acceptable. This will only lead to the decay and eventual dissolution of society.

What ever happened to self mastery, self dominion, self sacrifice, self control, self discipline. We in this country only want to indulge ourselves.

I leave you with this quote:

"In vain do they talk of happiness who never subdued an impulse in obedience to a principle. He who never sacrificed present to a future good, or a personal to a general one, can speak of happiness only as the blind speak of color."
-Horace Mann

PS
Russle D,
Your post does not address any of the points that I made.

I am open to a discussion but your statement has no meaning, it is like a child entering a room where adults are having a conversation and shouting some nonsense.

If you want to join the conversation then please provide some substance as to your point of view.

Truth needs to change his label to False.

Especially if he believes the stuff he
is spouting

Truth,

I am a woman and a hetrosexual one. I can no more force myself or pray myself to wanting desires for another woman. It is not natural for "me". Just as it is not natural for a homosexual to force themself or pray themself to desire an opposite gender partner.

I know a family who's son came out of the closet. What did they do? They sent him to one of those religious places than supposedly can convert a gay person to straight. He was 17, and knowing that his family would not approve of his homosexuality, he willingly agreed to go and wanted to changed to please his parents and live a so called normal life. At 17, its hard enough dealing with hetrosexual feelings and obviously did not have the personal maturity at that time to stand up to his parents.

All that happened in the end was 3 suicide attempts. He told his parents that no matter how hard he tried he couldn't stop being attracted to other males. They finally have stopped trying to force him to be other than what he is. And support him in the lifestyle he is meant to have. He is now 25, healthy, happy and still alive.

You said....To all those who spew forth the worst kind of venom that people can't change, the only thing I can say to you is that that is sad for you to cut off the hope of others.

And I would have to repeat that back to you! Only reverse can't to can in respect to sexuality.

We have choices of change over many aspects of our lives, thoughts and deeds. Not our sexuality.

Certainly there are people out there that experiment. Those are not whom I refer to. Perhaps those are the people you know in your heart that can change. They can change because they never were. Some people have emotional problems that skew their knowledge of who they really are. They too, may be the people you refer to that can change.

People that are born the way they are, cannot change no matter how much they would like to for societal exceptance in the area of race, color of skin or sexuality.

I deeply admire Bishop Tutu - however, I note how many especially from the 3rd world, are intolerant. They would rather tackle buzz issues such as Gay Unions rather than Sexism.

The Adventist Church - is a Church, that while it has stated its belief that marriage is only that between man and woman and has castigated in its Adventist review Magazine the Democratic Party for its approach to Gay rights - that Gays have liberty to be Gays - however, does everything in its power to undermine and attack the dignity of Black America.

This Church has become known for having and being comprised of "rednecks" - Rednecks from the Republican Party Conservative Tradition and Rednecks from Developing Countries.

This Church celebrates persons past and present who've exploited, and enslaved Black Americans. For example,the Adventists in its Liberty Magazine - has estolled George Washington as a man of God - even though he was a slave owner, and exploited Black Women.

THe Adventist Church goes overseas and recruits racists from Developing nation who share their view and vision of Dvelopment and Black Americans. They encourage and propp up bigots and racists who attack blck people. For example, this Church was involved in Fueling the Rwandan Genocide and has recently propped up Zambian Adventists who were looking to exploit Black Americans and who called Black Americans "wenches" and "slavery products".

President Paulson to Redneck Writer Karl Haffner for the Adventist Reveiw -have supported these predatory and racist Adventists who've sought to exploit and prey upon women, and have sought to defend the attacking of the dignity of the African-American peoples - and have refused to question the need for why should Zambian adventists be sexist and racist and predatory - instead the Question is asked - why should African-Americans want to be generous to vile, vulgar, racist and exploitative Zambian Adventists?

There is something wrong with the Adventist Church. The Adventist Church has more immigrants in it than African-Americans and white Americans.

The Church basically excludes African-Americnas from its evangelism targets - and puts no resources into ameliorating the developmental challenges that many poor African-American communities face. Karl Haffner does not criticize the lack of generousity of White Adventists who bestow the generous resources on White American Churches which have better facilities than black American churches - and overseas in 3rd world countries - but who ignore poor communities here in the US. Paulson - President of the Advnentist Church has been to Africa about 5 times in one year - however, he has never been to South East Washington, for any Adventist Work - nor have any of his Vice Presidents including the 2 black ones - Pardon Mwansa. This Church has white members telling some of the alien members of the church that they are better than Black Americans - and this Church tries to tear down the dignity of the black American community. Yet - when this Church comes accross that rare black Americna in the Church - and one who is prosperous, etc. - this Church seeks to attack such a person. This Church advocates the pre-modern ideas - such as that Black Americans are inferior and are slaves, and are intellectually inferior and are not doing well in America. This Church throws alot of AID overseas in places like Africa to recruit bigots -however, Karl Haffner does not note that their are strings attached to this AID -this church focuses its AID overseas and ignores black America, because it is looking to recruit bigots who will support its conservative policies of undermining Black America. This Church does nothing for most black Americans - whether they are poor, middle class or rich. It effectively deprives them of a social network and propps up persons who assault their dignity - Karl Haffner and others support those Adventists who've preyed upon the Black American community. This Church is devoid of most African-Americans and unlike the Baptist Church is devoid of the Black American middle and upper classess and intelligentsia - This church has become known as one that defends "smut" and trash. It's really a neocolonial institution that exists to racially oppress black people, particularly black Americans.

Robin,
Read my other posts.

First we are biological creatures with a specific nature that dictates how we must behave. No matter how I feel or think this will not change, it is absurd to think that "this is how I am" mentality people push upon people who have hmsx inclinations. I can look in my shorts or trunks and see who I am when it comes to gender - your feelings can't change that.

This is a lie and a contradiction:
"Gender, race, color of ones skin, and sexual preferences are not emotions and cannot be overcome no matter how much we would want this for ourselves."

I will state the same as to what you are saying - you have nothing to base this statement on.

The fact is our very genitals themselves serve a very specific function - look it up in a biology book or read my other posts.

This is another lie:
"Did it ever occur to you that praying to that God may also help a person to accept what they are and to heal from that acceptance? "

You already are what you are, it's not up to you to choose, look in the mirror before you take a shower.

You negate the power within people to be what the already are. To be true to themselves and thier natures.

It's like telling a person that has a fancy for sexual acts with animals that - "that is how you are". That is a lie. Anyone can change, for good or for bad.

This is worst kind of garbage I have heard. It goes against any kind of concept that we have a choice. That we are not animals. That we are not purely instinct driven. We are humans and we can choose to be what we are.

Don't destroy the hope in others that theirs is the choice as to how they want to be - act, feel, and think.

No one has to be held hostage to feelings or thoughts. I can and you can choose to be what is right - your very biological nature will help you.

To all those who spew forth the worst kind of venom that people can't change, the only thing I can say to you is that that is sad for you to cut off the hope of others.

Freedom will prevail. When a human awakens to the reality of his power over himself, that he can be a hero or a villain, it is ours to choose.

OK, help me out here. Lots of "homosexuality is a sin" stuff in the Old Testament. Only a couple of very iffy ones in the New Testament (Romans 1, 1 Corinthians). But if we go by the Old Testament, we're stuck with other Bible "edicts" like Lev. 25:44 stating that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations, and Exodus 35:2 stating anyone working on the Sabbath should be put to death (and of course, there are many more). So where exactly does Jesus say homosexuality is a sin? Anyone??
I had the honor of seeing Archbishop Tutu speak in the early 1980's when he was still very much in danger of being imprisoned or killed as a black leader in an apartheid nation. God Bless You, and thank you for your words of peace, Archbishop.

Truth,

You stated that......Hmsx is something that can be overcome.

Do you know this as fact?

Were you a homosexual that was able to overcome?

If not you have nothing to base this statement on.

Many people are confused about many things about themselves. With proper introspection or just plain maturity, they can come to the realization that they are not what they think they are or are not. But that applies to emotions.

Gender, race, color of ones skin, and sexual preferences are not emotions and cannot be overcome no matter how much we would want this for ourselves.

You also said that.....I hope with all my heart, you could just try to experiment with prayer to God. He can hel you.

Did it ever occur to you that praying to that God may also help a person to accept what they are and to heal from that acceptance?

I have read your bible and there are many passages in there that could help a person accept themself and reject the thoughts and opinions of others.

Fred Evil,
I have never heard of your creed since it is not science nor faith.

Since everything is relative and we cannot control our feelings then by your implication choice does not exist, neither does accountability, neither right or wrong, neither laws, neither freedom or punishment.

It is troubling to hear from an individual the lack of reasoning and even conclusion that we have no choice as to how we feel. You deny the very act of being human and exercising our faculties to our greatest aspirations.

Whatever reproduces in however way is no concern to us. Are you a frog or a human. No matter how badly you wanted to be a frog or felt like one you can't become one. It is not your nature. You belong to the species man (I hope :)).

If Hitler drank milk, that doesn't make milk evil. Let's be mature and use our own senses.

You assume to much. I never said I was irrated at any kind of person.

What I am irrated with is people like you who go off on weak rants that people can't change and can't make decisions as to whom they choose to be.

Humans are the captains of their souls, the makers of their characters. If this is not so then how could we hold anyone accountable for the things they do. Since actions are associated to one's thougths and feelings. No one wakes up one morning and decides to rape, they had thoughts and feelings beforehand, that they could have changed.

Your post is a fallacy. I hope that people can see clearly that anyone telling them they can't change their thoughts and feelings clearly does not have their best interest.

You can change, you can be whoever you want to be. Do not be scared of whatever thought or feeling enters your heart, no matter what it is, understand you are more than a thought and feeling. You can choose as to what you want to be, think, and feel.

Fred I am sorry to say but what you are saying is evil - it negates choice - and this is the american way. To choose to be happy.

For a moment of geek levity, I must admit my first response to your statement was, "Control your feelings? What is he, Vulcan?"

If it makes sense, great, else....nevermind...

You are correct in a number of things that you say. I do NOT know everyone else in the world, and like most other people we do struggle with day to day living. However, I completely disagree with your most basic tenet. One cannot control one's feelings. That is why they are feelings. You can control thoughts to some extent, but not feelings. Unless you spend years and years numbing that particular emotion down, but to what end? If it is an emotion, is it not real, is it not important? Is love an emotion? Can you control love? I think you're trying to, and it's something out of your reach. Out of all of our reaches. You can train someone to suppress their emotions, and ignore their feelings, but you cannot CHANGE how they feel. And if you insist that they ignore their feelings, are you not in essence asking them to lie to themselves? How is that an honorable thing to ask of someone? Making someone abusive or a liar is much simpler, you are comparing apples and oranges.

As a matter of my belief, it is entirely due to chance that we have two sexes, male and female, that are required for procreation. Most species on this planet reproduce in the same way, although are those who reproduce asexually, and those who actually CHANGE sex during their lifespan. There are also those creatures who use OTHER SPECIES during their conception. Although male/female reproduction is by far the most likely method, it IS due to chance in my opinion. As a matter of fact, homosexuality isn't in any way restricted to man, there are hundreds of examples of other species engaging in similar behavior, this is not a thing created by man.

The worst part is that these are issues that affect you personally in very little sum total. You have to put up with comments about it on TV, you have to see the same sex holding hands, it's insufferable I'm sure. I truly feel sorry for those who have to live with your misconceptions of reality. For while you suffer the little irritations from coexisting with homosexuality, homosexuality has to put up with the major irritations and threats to existence from people like you. Do you not recall that Hitler also forced homosexuals into the ghettos and gas chambers? How can ANYTHING that jerk believed in be right? To be frank, your religious convictions are of no concern to anyone but you, they hold no sway here. This is the real world, where we all have to get along, and you shouldn't be burdened by my beliefs any more than I should be burdened by yours. This is America, get used to it.

Victoria: You're right, it *should* be a given that everyone here is expressing an opinion of a subjective and personal nature. Case in point: Mr. Tutu tempers his writing with expository phrases such as "I believe," "my faith convinced me," "I would aver," etc. The Archbishop's post focuses on conveying his personal beliefs and arguing their validity without implying that his approach is the *only* approach.

On the contrary, I find that many people who write about their beliefs do so in a manner that suggests ownership of the truth, and this upsets me. I singled out Mr. Ahmed's post because, apart from his first sentence ("I think…"), he consistently states his personal beliefs as facts. I quote: "A person can elevate his grade only by use of reason and by actions that are dear to God; this is the way to become 'image of God.'" In my response, I was objecting to this type of dogmatic assertion of opinion.

I'm sure that Mr. Ahmed had the best of intentions; then again, that's probably true of most everyone posting here, isn't it? Good intentions don't preclude offensiveness.

Thank You.

One of the most clear explanations of a position I've read yet.

Thanks for being!

Oh by the way Fred Evil if you want to know of the "reality of our existence", just pinch yourself, one your faculties should alert you as to the fact that you exist.

Fred Evil,
Your very statement is full of contridictions.

Let's take the most important one:

"Very few people on this planet have a choice about such things."

This statement implies that you know every single person on this planet, and their intents, hearts, and emotions, etc.

I can truthfully say you do not. You are a finite human who like the rest of us has a hard time trying to manage your own life.

Anyone can change, especially something like orientation. I can be oriented to be abusive. I can be oriented to be a lyer. I can be oriented to be whatever.

It is my choice what feelings I harbor and what feelings I don't. Same with thoughts. My character is built upon my choice.

The problem for each one of us is that we all have weaknesses and character flaws. Hmsx is that simple. Just like someone who has a tendency towards violience, or is plain lazy, or can't keep commitments - like marriage - adultery.

Hmsx is something that can be overcome.

God has inscribed within our own nature's the structure of the family unit. It isn't by chance that a man and a woman can have children.

The family structure is already defined by our very physical natures - the gender attribute as a primary principle.

How complicated is this. If someone has a tendency for attraction to the opposite sex - they shouldn't be scared or think that that is how they are. Fear will destroy conviction. They should simply change their thoughts and feelings. Just like when any one has some other character flaw - whatever it may be.

If it is to hard, then seek God and He can help you. I know He can.

I completely agree with randallas statement that hate filled people are faux christians- deluding themselves and others exactly as the faux muslims who in a similar way- do not know what their own scriptures tell them (suicide is wrong)

judge not lest ye be judged- and love your neighbor as you love yourself- these are basics in christianity and anyone who uses their religion as a vehicle to express their hatred is not a representative of their respective religions-

bishop tutu did not say it- but a logical summation is ultimately only god is the judge-

BECCA- why did you go off on mr ahmed?
it is a given that everyone on these boards is expressing an opinion of a subjective and personal nature-

Bishop Tutu, I for one commend your honesty of approach to this issue. People are finally beginning to understand that the phrase "Sexual Preference" is misleading. Very few people on this planet have a choice about such things. There are those who DO choose, but this article is not about them. I have yet to meet a gay person who was not 100% convinced that they had no other choice, the opposite sex just has no interest for them. These are not people opting to be "The Difficult Ones," as far as I can tell, they are the ones having to deal with the difficulty of facing people like one calling oneself "Truth" every day. The word "Truth" implies the factuality of something, if it is a fact, it is the Truth. Unfortunately, the individual calling themselves "Truth" has no monopoly on the subject whatsoever, but certainly has plenty of opinions to bring to the table, as we all do. NO ONE knows for sure the reality of our existence, and I have difficulty taking seriously those so brazen as to tell us who's correct in their name before we can even have a discussion. Why even bother discussing? But that denies you the opportunity to proselytize does it not? Don't worry BISHOP Tutu, I'm sure that "Truth" will be happy to explain how a man of such study, of such accomplishment, and such faith as yourself, is completely mistaken. After, he/she is the "Truth."

How can any belief based upon love be wrong?

Randall,

While I agree with your and Mr. Tutu's sentiments regarding acceptance, I disagree with your assessment that those who express hatred are "faux Christians".

They are real Christians, just as suicide bombers are real Muslims. People make their own morality. Religious people use their religion to claim that their morality is universal.

With someone like Mr. Tutu, the result is a message of peace, equality, and brotherhood. With the bigots of the world, the message is one of judgment, condemnation, and self-righteous superiority.

James Buchanan,

I guess your god is yourself? In your eye and your text you seem all powerful to yourself?

I wonder If you will feel the same when you are 89!

I guess your god is yourself? In your eye and your text you seem all powerful to yourself?

I wonder If you will feel the same when you are 89!

TYPO:
"He can hel you.

CORRECTION:
He can Heal and Help you.

Right on James

Brutus, I think you got that backwards, amigo. I think it should be "There is something wrong with any man who lets religion bring him to his knees".

The ultimate expression of Christian weakness is their appeals to the fear of death. They're pathetic and powerless in life, so their only threat available is to try and make you afraid of what might happen after life. "You'll burn in Hell", so forth and so on.

Recognize it for what it is, folks.

Toothlessness.

Lilac,
The comparison of hmsx to any other deviance from normal behavior is not intended to cause those who categorize themselves as hmsx's to feel as if they are committing those deviant actions - such as killing, pedophilia, etc.

What it is intended to do is shed light on the fact that it is simply and clearly wrong.

No one on this earth is perfect (except Jesus Christ). We all have tendencies and inclinations for good and bad, to build or destroy, to further humanity or to hinder it.

The point is that no matter what feelings we have or what thoughts enter into our minds, no matter how persistent they are - let us always remember they are just thoughts and feelings. We can choose to keep them or to snuff them.

We are the master's of our own selfs. We can choose to be what we already are.

No all of us have the strength to do this, this is why Jesus Christ is so important. He can help us change the things we hve trouble with. He can actually change us and help us overcome our thoughts and our inclinations. This is what puts us above the animals.

The nobility of human kind to choose freely what they want to be.

I hope with all my heart, you could just try to experiment with prayer to God. He can hel you.

If people want to have dogmatic personal beliefs, fine. The concern is when dogmatic personal beliefs become laws. When religious bigotry is enacted into law, as is happening here, we should be concerned about whether we will survive as a liberal democracy or whether we will end up with religious fascisism. The war on the rights homosexuals is only the begining of a larger war on individual rights.

I hate to break this to you Truth;

God didn't make man
Man made God to cater to his own shortcomings.
God didn't make me.
Two drunken adults and a broken condom made me.

And I leave you with this thought: There is something wrong with any religion that brings a man to his knees.

As a homosexual, I find the premise of "Love the Sinner, Hate the Sin" extremely offensive. Even more offensive, is comparing homosexuality to serial killers, alcoholics, thieves, pedophiles adulterers..etc. etc. ad nauseum

I am a good person and a law-abiding citizen. I have a family that cares about me, a college education and I have never gone out of my way to inflict harm on anyone.

I live by the principle of "Do Unto Others As You Would Have Them Do Unto You." I don't understand why people care so much about homosexuality. I think it has more to do with each individuals doubt(s) about their own sexuality, and how those doubts and fears play into their religious beliefs.

I literally thank God for people such as Archbishop Desmond Tutu. I thank him for his humanity and grace. I hope more religious leaders will follow his example, as the issue of homosexuality and religion has caused far too much anguish and strife.

To clarify: "I don't know if it is my Christian upbringing or just something innately built into my psyche but homosexuality and gay unions are very disturbing. Is homosexuality a biological deficiency? Probably and I hope some day they find a cure."

If Christians were really following Christ, they'd dump the folklore of the Old Testament, which was only brought back to convert Jews to Jesus, and focus on the philosophy of the New Testament. That would solve the homosexual "problem" for everybody.

But, like somebody wrote above, you have to learn to hate. And once once choses to hate it's damned hard to convert.

Brutus,
You and I live in a society that is very blessed. We have many luxuries and comfortabilities. We have the blessing of even thinking to trust in ourselves - this is because of Gods providence, checkout the founding fathers biographies - their conclusions are the same.

Others are not like me and you. They live in stark conditions - despot goverments, chronic poverty, oppression, sickness, etc, etc where to trust in themselves would be futile.

We are finite humans. Neither you or I can guarentee any thing in life.

Did you wake up this morning and crank up your heart so it could pump for the rest of the day? When you ate lunch today - did you count the number of enzymes you needed to digest your food?

No, this is all done for us, without our concious oversight! How can we not see that we did not create ourselves. We need God.

All of this is a gift from God.

Do you beleive in mathematics? Well then it is improbable taking into account all the reasons why any one of us should be alive - to be alive!

There are things we cannot do by ourselves. We need God's help. And He will help us.

All things give testimony to God.

Try praying to him, with sincere intent and He will answer you. Because He loves and cares about you.

Mr.Tutu, yes God is weeping, but He's weeping for you and all who will tolerate sin. I will not judge homosexuality, He will do that. As the woman caught in adultery, Jesus told her he will not condemn her, but admonished her to sin no more. Look, sir, sin is sin, there is no way to spin it. If I lie, it is sin, if I fornicate, it is sin. Like heterosexuals, homosexuals may be outstanding, law-abiding citizens, each capable of sin and God will someday judge all mankind. Call me homophobe if you will,, God created marriage for a man and a woman. God bless you all

Truth:
I believe in self sacrifice and descipline and trying to reach your potential. But here's the thing, it can be done without believing in God. All you gotta do is believe in yourself.

Everything you need is already there. Look at it this way. Why thank God when you receive an ward? Did he do it or did you? Why not thank Him when you fail? wouldn't it be just as reasonable to assume that He has as much reason for you to fail as He does for you to succeed?
Religion is a crutch. Once you get past that and learn to count on your own inner strength, you will be a better person.

Rizwan Ahmed wrote: "I think this concept of 'created in image of God' has been misused and mis-applied. Each of us created in image of God means as humans we have the ability to attain attributes of God by proper use of reason and action.…"

You do realize that you're just sharing opinions here, right? YOU believe that the concept has been mis-applied; YOU interpret "created in the image of God" to mean something other than the interpretation put forth by Desmond Tutu. You are entitled to your opinions, but yours are no more valid than Tutu's.

On an unrelated, personal note… I really shouldn't read the OnFaith comments section, because I always get so offended by the way typical religious believers choose to speak/write. It's always, "As a member of the _____ faith, I *know*…" (Don't you mean, "I believe"?) Or, "The [insert name of book here] tells me…" (As if these multiply-translated ancient texts are somehow more valid than anything else scrawled on a parchment thousands of years ago…)

Newsflash: Millions of people in this world do not care what you believe, nor do they care what is written in some book that you call holy. You're free to think whatever you want—but for God's sake (pun intended), have the courtesy and humility to describe yourself as a "believer," not as someone who "knows."

Marco Polo,
Why not just ask a serial killer if he is committing sin. Or a chronic abuser?

You have as an undeniable testimony - your own body as to your nature - as to how you should behave. A tree is a tree. A rock is a rock. A male is a male. A male genital is used to procreate and to discharge waste from our bodies in the form of liquid. This is not a choice. It is what you are.

Humans have all kinds of inclinations. That are not only by religious standards but also societal standards - wrong.

How simple can this be. All of has have defincies. We should not let these rule us, or dictate to us how we should behave.

What ever happened to self discipline and self sacrifice; to trying to reach your potential; to never giving in to any inclination that would be contrary to our nature, society, and God.

Truth:

You know, I'd say you were Canyon Shearer for a moment, but you come across as more put together than him. But still, you come across as slightly blindsided by your faith in God.

And being gay is not sin, its as natural as being straight, just ask a gay guy.

This post only goes to show that no award or prize bestowed upon man by this world gives logic, reason, or virtue - even the nobel prize. Man cannot ascend man to heaven. I am sorry mr. tutu but your reasoning is contrary to the testimony found in God's word and embedded within our conciensce.

Our nature dictates our function. Our gender is part of our nature. Our genitals serve specific purposes. Humans are the only ones who turn against thier nature. This is sin.

It seems laughable that a person with your assumed intelligence and works would make such a statement:

" It would be bizarre in the extreme for a person to choose to be gay or lesbian in a set-up that is so homophobic."

Do people kill? Do people commit fornication? Do people commit Adultery? Do people steel? Do people Lie?

You're statement does not make sense. People will follow their inclinations no matter what "set-up" exists.

You also state:
"It is being consistent to assert that I cannot condone penalizing someone for something about which she or he can do nothing."

Does someone that is "attracted" to pornography have the power to resist it? Does someone that is inclined to anger and violence not have the choice and will to curve it and become peaceful? Does a pedophile who is attracted to children not have the capacity to change, to overcome this inclination, this vice?

The message of Jesus Christ is so simple - Man can change and live after the manner of Happiness which is virtue, which is natural - a man for a woman, and a woman for a man.

We are the masters of ourselves. For those who by themselves cannot change themselves, these we need rehabilitate.

For this purpose our Lord Jesus Christ came to earth to make those who are in the bondage of vices - FREE!

Pray to Him, Fast, Read the Word, Repent and You will become free, You will be one with your true self and your true nature - a child of God!

Archbishop Tutu: Thank you for you reasoned and loving article. Yes, God is surely weeping today as He witnesses the hatred spewed forth by faux Christians in His name and the tears caused thereby.

When are you people gonna learn that just because the Bible says something, doesn't make it true?

I agree with Mr. Tutu in the sense that persecution and denigration of homosexuals needs to stop, especially from the religious establishment. It is a glaringly hypocritical blemish upon the Churches in the way we treat the human beings behind the sin. But as a fellow Christian, I know that while Jesus was full of compassion and love for all who were persecuted-and homosexuals are no exception-he still never once tolerated sin. And make no mistake, homosexuality-among other things-is a sin as clearly outlined in the Bible, and ALL of us are born with a sinful nature, some in different ways. The Jesus I know would embrace them out of love assuring them they are accepted, then he would tell them to go forth and sin no more, convicting their hearts to radically transform. Go forth and sin no more. He never said "Well, what you're doing is not really sinning so just keep doing what you like to do." We do not turn from sin to gain salvation, but we turn from sin out of love for the One who has already given salvation to us.

Your message of tolerance cannot be anything but good.

If there is a God, SHE must want understanding and love over hatred and bigotry and discrimination.

Brambleton,

usually, I'd be in your corner, but I'd have to say, your literal interpretation of the Bible's take on sin is a little off kilter. Paul's opinion shouldn't matter. If it were up to Paul, I wouldn't have long hair, now would I(not saying I do)?

My point is this, don't read into the Bible too much, it will steer you wrong. If it were up to the Bible, we'd still have slavery, and I doubt we want that, do we? Homosexuality is a natural and beautiful thing. Most homosexual couples I know are more loving than many straight ones could ever be.

There are many sins. Just to name a few: Fornication, impurity, passion, evil desire, covetousness, idolatry, murder, adultery, stealing, and yes, homosexual behavior. The Bible is very clear about these all being sins. If we want to exclude homosexual behavior, then I guess some would like to exclude adultery or even murder. Let's all create our own designer God and designer religion. In the world the Bishop lives in everything is relative and there are no absolutes. Do whatever you think is right.

As a Christian, I've come to understand that the Bible is quite clear on this issue. Homosexuality is a sin. Period. While I believe it to be a sin, and have conveyed those feelings to friends of mine who are gay, that does not give me or anyone else the right to "persecute, denigrate, or oppress" any individual who chooses this lifestyle. Jesus teaches to "love the sinner, hate the sin."

we dont know what God is doing but we can sure read the bible and it condems homo conduct. its a sin that can be forgiven. but the greater sin is to try to get people to believe that its not a sin.

I am grateful you added your voice to this conversation, Archbishop Tutu. Your compassionate, reflective, intelligent response reminds me of the way Jesus would respond to similar complex issue that held religious law and human reality in the balance. His parabolic answers were usually meant to turn the laws, not the persecuted, on their heads. He clearly valued compassionate reevaluation over adherence to the law, especially when real human need proved more compelling.

Common sense, love, and true morality, all in one post. Well said, your Grace.

I think this concept of "created in image of God" has been misused and mis-applied.

Each of us created in image of God means as humans we have the ability to attain attributes of God by proper use of reason and action. This can differentiate one from others and this is the only mean of differentiation to God, that is Good and noble conduct. You can call differentiation as grading. A person can elevate his grade only by use of reason and by actions that are dear to God; this is the way to become "image of God". In other words, each of us have the ability in us to be image of God but only after striving to create reason and actions which increase our grade.

How much one would be image of God, and how complete one would be image of God is one's specific; depends upon his life and actions in his life.

Feeling some actions as sinfull and keeping an opinion is not penalizing, as Mr. Tutu claims.

History of religion, religion which beleive in one God, is crystal clear about this issue. It is strange that even then people try to give a twist to religious teachings; such form of sinfull union is sinfull. You can not claim that religon ever condone such behaviour. Off course, you can make and keep your opinion; but attaching your opinon to religious teachings does not look like a reasonable and truthfull action; does not look like a way to become image of God.

Mixing race and gender with such behaviour is wring, because race and gender is given to one; it is physically present and one can not change it. Moreover race and gender is irrelevent to become image of God; but such sinfull behaviour is optional and it is not tangible like race or gender. Such mixing and confusing of the issue looks intentional and deviod of reason and proper action.

The issue which is making this thing hot is not the behaviour of certain people but mixing of their action with religious teaching and falsely claiming support from history of religious teachings.

Bravo, Archbishop!

I can not speak for GOD, but I know people are weeping and that is much more important to me!

Nicely said.

Hate and intolerance is not a given, it is learned and it is taught. It can however, be remedied, if you're willing to let it be.

I don't know if it is my Christian upbringing or just something innately built into my psyche but gay unions are very disturbing. Is it a biological problem? I hope so and I hope some day they find a cure.