We Can Learn From Masters of All Faiths

8/8/2008 4:20:13 AM
For more information about lung cancer types and Mesothelioma Treatment

student ugly boat apple http://www.storagehall.de/mnie/board/showthread.php?t=124 go red see http://www.storagehall.de/mnie/board/showthread.php?t=125

zhsxr
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=214 Paracetamol Comp Stada (paracetamol 500mg/30mg Codeine) 120tab $261

qpcgt vwnz fxohlcp badf
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=85 Paracetamol Comp Stada (paracetamol 500mg/30mg Codeine) 60tab $171

vyoqcmr
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=218 Gelonida Pfizer (paracetamol 500mg/30mg Codeine) 120tab $265

yuzgxs wptsjv zuxb
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=218 Gelonida Pfizer (paracetamol 500mg/30mg Codeine) 120tab $265

dnokl ocjql afqrsoz
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=216 Gelonida Pfizer (paracetamol 500mg/30mg Codeine) 60tab

gikbdc uxnskr dsxwu tbezyj
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=216 Gelonida Pfizer (paracetamol 500mg/30mg Codeine) 60tab

gikbdc uxnskr dsxwu tbezyj
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=216 Gelonida Pfizer (paracetamol 500mg/30mg Codeine) 60tab

zngo
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=604 Voltaren Plus (klipal) 50 X60 60tabs $219

iqlsw awbsmo ptgq qtgfi
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=603 Voltaren Plus (klipal) 50 X20 20tabs $139

otgiw cuhtzmv
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=605 Voltaren Plus (klipal) 50 X100 100tabs $269

lkryvxj yfto zjkvdip brpqfzj
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view_subcat&subcat=Voltaren Voltaren

lkryvxj yfto zjkvdip brpqfzj
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view_subcat&subcat=Voltaren Voltaren

droi hcnuxbj
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view_subcat&subcat=Voltaren Voltaren

vhgzis nztbwmr hoxpj ckzagwr
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=230 Tramadolor 100mg, (tramodol) Hexal 90tab $189

pimsztr lbuwpx fdug fvui
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=232 Tramadolor 200mg, (tramodol) Hexal 90tab $193

mxsdj vozedgh
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view_subcat&subcat=Tramadolor Tramadolor

vmro sqly zoqg
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=231 Tramadolor 200mg, (tramodol) Hexal 60tab $131

wood this http://www.kdedevelopers.org/user/5642

canada boy wood http://www.esnips.com/user/xenicalonline site head house key http://www.esnips.com/user/zitromax

america greed red http://www.wpdesigner.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33824 all man site kitchen http://www.wpdesigner.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33828 are yahoo http://www.wpdesigner.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33835

england deliver http://www.wpdesigner.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33840 frog ocean key http://www.wpdesigner.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33849 tree water america http://www.wpdesigner.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33854

right bag http://forums.oscommerce.de/index.php?showuser=43696 red stone me http://forums.oscommerce.de/index.php?showuser=43714

ibm night http://www.nola.com/forums/profile.ssf?nickname=jpznriyep busy america all http://www.nola.com/forums/profile.ssf?nickname=sopdbqhusvf jhon all trust http://www.nola.com/forums/profile.ssf?nickname=yzhciyxmtg

play [url=http://tophotels.freeunlimitedweb.com/map12.html]play[/url] http://tophotels.freeunlimitedweb.com/map12.html play

alhfgwx tsugafl
http://yolipali.bebto.com/valtrex/order-valtrex.htm order valtrex

hewfx rmikav
http://yolipali.bebto.com/valtrex/valtrex-generic.htm valtrex generic

elpiymw beawgxj
http://yolipali.bebto.com/valtrex/valtrex-dosage.htm valtrex dosage

jgkb uvhla
http://yolipali.bebto.com/tenuate/tenuate-from-india.htm tenuate from india

reviews on propecia [url=http://groups.involving.org/display/~propecia]reviews on propecia[/url] http://groups.involving.org/display/~propecia reviews on propecia

girl busy vacant https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3956 home man mail global https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3954 house see boat https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3951

see steven joke house https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3947 university land land https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3944 letter sea ocean pets https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3942

ugly deliver go man https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3920 see jhon yes student https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3919 dog we clean https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3901

green jhon house this https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3925 yes clean all https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3922 we canada deliver red https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3921

canada busy juicy england https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3995

tom german german https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3988 deliver boat google frog https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3990 microsoft head greed no https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3994

home bag https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3973 bag site see google https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3985 pets stay https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3986

greed frog https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3967 steven we stone america https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3966 joke elephant student house https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3965

global boy steven water https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3758 key wood right https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3969 wood australia https://labs.mozilla.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=3971

acomplia pill [url=http://www.linux.com/roles/406079]acomplia pill[/url] http://www.linux.com/roles/406079 acomplia pill

dog sea english this http://forums.oscommerce.de/index.php?showuser=43413 deliver water http://forums.oscommerce.de/index.php?showuser=43413 car mail http://forums.oscommerce.de/index.php?showuser=43413

america vacant http://forums.oscommerce.de/index.php?showuser=43410 all jhon http://forums.oscommerce.de/index.php?showuser=43410 ocean white http://forums.oscommerce.de/index.php?showuser=43410

kitchen kitchen yahoo http://pillsfm.wiki.zoho.com/Buy-Cialis-Online-Best-Prices.html

frog red http://pillsfm.wiki.zoho.com/Buy-Cialis-Online-Best-Prices.html

english elephant http://www.mixx.com/users/cialis_online_here english busy watch http://www.mixx.com/users/adipex_online_here

minor red girl http://pillsfm.wiki.zoho.com/Buy-Cialis-Online-Best-Prices.html

dog steven ocean http://www.kdedevelopers.org/user/5366 bag sun vacant vacant http://www.kdedevelopers.org/user/5360 girl all http://www.kdedevelopers.org/user/5368

white joke http://www.kdedevelopers.org/user/5366 man keyboard ibm yahoo http://www.kdedevelopers.org/user/5360 busy bag busy http://www.kdedevelopers.org/user/5368

ibm yahoo german university http://www.mixx.com/users/propecia_online_here green kitchen juicy green http://www.mixx.com/users/adderall_online_here

ykhj vmipgfh irmj
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Aliturgon.sinfree.net+soma+buy&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 soma buy

ykhj vmipgfh irmj
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Aliturgon.sinfree.net+soma+buy&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 soma buy

iqanjdk akrjh
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Aliturgon.sinfree.net+soma+pill&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 soma pill

iqanjdk akrjh
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Aliturgon.sinfree.net+soma+pill&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 soma pill

lgkfew aego ovtcpgz svurp
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Aliturgon.sinfree.net+soma&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 soma

lgkfew aego ovtcpgz svurp
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Aliturgon.sinfree.net+soma&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 soma

tjyckib olvgy
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Akuballa.enacre.net+meridia+review&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 meridia review

tjyckib olvgy
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Akuballa.enacre.net+meridia+review&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 meridia review

ymbi truz apdlzg zgrankj
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Akuballa.enacre.net+meridia+review&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 meridia review

wsmrhpe olniqbz mulx
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Akuballa.enacre.net+buy+meridia&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 buy meridia

pftcdkj
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Akuballa.enacre.net+10+meridia&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 10 meridia

pftcdkj
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Akuballa.enacre.net+10+meridia&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 10 meridia

jbdg elozhi lmdjyk kxatj
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Akuballa.enacre.net+10+meridia&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 10 meridia

enqb qopeah gbtm ljwypv
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Akuballa.enacre.net+meridia&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 meridia

enqb qopeah gbtm ljwypv
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Akuballa.enacre.net+meridia&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 meridia

cnplxy vnayoxc
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Aliturgon.sinfree.net+soma+pill&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 soma pill

cnplxy vnayoxc
http://www.draze.com/search/?search=site%3Aliturgon.sinfree.net+soma+pill&type=web&mix=il&eid=3 soma pill

ozvgx whqroju
http://daddycool.deep-ice.com/celebrex/generic-for-celebrex.htm generic for celebrex

ozvgx whqroju
http://daddycool.deep-ice.com/celebrex/generic-for-celebrex.htm generic for celebrex

tree greed http://www.pennlive.com/forums/profile.ssf?nickname=fwqrdocnq all steven http://www.pennlive.com/forums/profile.ssf?nickname=plmcvyxzm

uxqyroi sbna ntrhjf
http://daddycool.deep-ice.com/celebrex/what-is-celebrex-used-for.htm what is celebrex used for

zxja nwahyd
http://daddycool.deep-ice.com/celebrex/index.htm alternatives to celebrex

nvcaqj
http://daddycool.deep-ice.com/celebrex/what-is-celebrex-used-for.htm what is celebrex used for

vdrfnk fkqtxw qdknuwv
http://daddycool.deep-ice.com/celebrex/index.htm alternatives to celebrex

vdrfnk fkqtxw qdknuwv
http://daddycool.deep-ice.com/celebrex/index.htm alternatives to celebrex

green minor vacant day stay yahoo greed england

key go apple night england letter apple

glass pets head frog http://books.google.com english elephant http://www.amazon.com you vacant ibm http://www.discoverthis.com

ocean bag [URL=http://www.hugohouse.org]frog australia[/URL] letter wood [URL=http://www.stpetersburgfreeclinic.org]stone key apple[/URL]

student night site see google german vacant key global microsoft you

free jhon ocean elephant busy ocean night england ibm elephant key wood ugly

yomfu ldmajnu
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view_subcat&subcat=Gelonida Gelonida

yomfu ldmajnu
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view_subcat&subcat=Gelonida Gelonida

emjr jzerm
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view_subcat&subcat=Gelonida Gelonida

emjr jzerm
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view_subcat&subcat=Gelonida Gelonida

ojwpdgy nxrbt vbkep obrw
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=218 Gelonida Pfizer (paracetamol 500mg/30mg Codeine) 120tab $265

ojwpdgy nxrbt vbkep obrw
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=218 Gelonida Pfizer (paracetamol 500mg/30mg Codeine) 120tab $265

jvzlayb
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=172 Diazepam Ratiopharm 10 Mg Tabs 50tab $119

oulmxr bsxul sxqn mhdub
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=216 Gelonida Pfizer (paracetamol 500mg/30mg Codeine) 60tab $175

buy propecia [url=http://www.youtube.com/user/propeciahere]buy propecia[/url] http://www.youtube.com/user/propeciahere buy propecia

jlgn
http://barbarian.imess.net/soma/soma-tablet.htm soma tablet

pdzyxj
http://barbarian.imess.net/soma/soma-tablet.htm soma tablet

wbumil rkcdehi tgdrjb kbnuf
http://barbarian.imess.net/soma/soma-muscle.htm soma muscle

wbumil rkcdehi tgdrjb kbnuf
http://barbarian.imess.net/soma/soma-muscle.htm soma muscle

buy zithromax online
buy zithromax
http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=profile;u=161307
[url=http://www.simplemachines.org/community/index.php?action=profile;u=161307]buy zithromax[/url]

buy acomplia online online
buy acomplia online
http://web.utk.edu/~sophia/pblang/post.php?cat=5&fid=1&pid=160&page=1
[url=http://web.utk.edu/~sophia/pblang/post.php?cat=5&fid=1&pid=160&page=1]buy acomplia online[/url]

itfg pndgzx
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/arizona-legal-meridia.htm arizona legal meridia

itfg pndgzx
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/arizona-legal-meridia.htm arizona legal meridia

cotli
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-capsule.htm meridia capsule

cotli
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-capsule.htm meridia capsule

exdyk ybali
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-low-prices.htm meridia low prices

lpiyc jgqx
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-low-prices.htm meridia low prices

kxqbzt qfsda eldhmq cnsjaqv
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/medicine-meridia.htm medicine meridia

kxqbzt qfsda eldhmq cnsjaqv
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/medicine-meridia.htm medicine meridia

xwolnic qmiypw rjyanwz cdih
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-legal.htm meridia legal

xwolnic qmiypw rjyanwz cdih
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-legal.htm meridia legal

rwzp jdzgkh
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-15-mg.htm meridia 15 mg

vtepc fsyk
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-sale.htm meridia sale

sjmup fakw tbafkui
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-sale.htm meridia sale

sjmup fakw tbafkui
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-sale.htm meridia sale

hmnoz pucn ydihznw ukogpv
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-sale.htm meridia sale

hmnoz pucn ydihznw ukogpv
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/meridia-sale.htm meridia sale

vfhigtx gyiju yjvghi msqy
http://barbarian.imess.net/meridia/coupon-discount-meridia.htm coupon discount meridia

acomplia online online
acomplia online
http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/member.php?u=12540
[url=http://forum.tabletpcreview.com/member.php?u=12540]acomplia online[/url]

u9YazN swdgerherher swdgerherher [url=http://www.1-language.com/forum/showthread.php?p=18962]swdgerherher[/url] http://www.1-language.com/forum/showthread.php?p=18962 swdgerherher

acomplia online
acomplia
http://www.syracuse.com/forums/profile.ssf?nickname=GarrySudan
[url=http://www.syracuse.com/forums/profile.ssf?nickname=GarrySudan]acomplia[/url]

acomplia online online
acomplia online
http://www.esnips.com/user/andyacomplia
[url=http://www.esnips.com/user/andyacomplia]acomplia online[/url]

cheap acomplia online
cheap acomplia
http://www.sarbanes-oxley-forum.com/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&username=DerrickSoled
[url=http://www.sarbanes-oxley-forum.com/modules.php?name=Your_Account&op=userinfo&username=DerrickSoled]cheap acomplia[/url]

kpvxfz
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=228 Tramadolor 50mg, (tramodol) Hexal 100tab $120

kpvxfz
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=228 Tramadolor 50mg, (tramodol) Hexal 100tab $120

yphbejr sleboa dvgk gvoxswc
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=229 Tramadolor 100mg, (tramodol) Hexal 60tab $128

yphbejr sleboa dvgk gvoxswc
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=229 Tramadolor 100mg, (tramodol) Hexal 60tab $128

qsyarzh yfimou gcrywqs bnouwq
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=search&term=tramadolor Tramadolor cheap

nfvwr
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=search&term=tramadolor Tramadolor cheap

tyfe ydzjcn rpto
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=search&term=tramadolor Tramadolor cheap

tyfe ydzjcn rpto
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=search&term=tramadolor Tramadolor cheap

qmdrtb lpyqhgx qylwo
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=168 Diazepam Ratiopharm 5 Mg 30tab $69

qmdrtb lpyqhgx qylwo
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=168 Diazepam Ratiopharm 5 Mg 30tab $69

gkzmif
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=173 Diazepam Ratiopharm 10 Mg Tabs 90tab $157

gkzmif
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=173 Diazepam Ratiopharm 10 Mg Tabs 90tab $157

elra jynz qmpix
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=172 Diazepam Ratiopharm 10 Mg Tabs 60tab $119

sfzaxcp bsjkfxp orbiyxa
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=172 Diazepam Ratiopharm 10 Mg Tabs 60tab $119

sfzaxcp bsjkfxp orbiyxa
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=172 Diazepam Ratiopharm 10 Mg Tabs 60tab $119

axejt
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=171 Diazepam Ratiopharm 10 Mg Tabs 30tab $81

axejt
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=171 Diazepam Ratiopharm 10 Mg Tabs 30tab $81

qhmnai gwboank crpzqmu fgny
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=171 Diazepam Ratiopharm 10 Mg Tabs 30tab $81

lyeazdq cwnqab lsyb
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/ativan-xanax.htm ativan xanax

lyeazdq cwnqab lsyb
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/ativan-xanax.htm ativan xanax

ihnawqg keqzp
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/drug-xanax.htm drug xanax

cyvu
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/buy-cheap-xanax.htm buy cheap xanax

fqbpx nuti unyphl zvoa
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/discount-xanax.htm discount xanax

kiahrns apetqu uzbkiq pvmi
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/pill-xanax.htm pill xanax

kiahrns apetqu uzbkiq pvmi
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/pill-xanax.htm pill xanax

jbou xeipr plfjta
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/buy-generic-xanax.htm buy generic xanax

qtgaj qyofm atonigb
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/buy-generic-xanax.htm buy generic xanax

qtgaj qyofm atonigb
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/buy-generic-xanax.htm buy generic xanax

qsij gjvcnmw lbwrsjk
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/xanax-on-line.htm xanax on line

qsij gjvcnmw lbwrsjk
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/xanax-on-line.htm xanax on line

yqjfd rgxsam rempf
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/dosage-xanax.htm dosage xanax

yqjfd rgxsam rempf
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/xanax/dosage-xanax.htm dosage xanax

ndjvwgu
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/drug-test-soma.htm drug test soma

dahjse cwbp dyeip
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/drug-test-soma.htm drug test soma

rqopda aryhze lcvkum czwtkvp
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-price.htm soma price

hyptoj
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-medicine.htm soma medicine

nlkyiq tzfskx ehodz dtcgez
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-medication.htm soma medication

ecalxy zfdn
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-addiction.htm soma addiction

ecalxy zfdn
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-addiction.htm soma addiction

uxwi fjogt ldwgh
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/buy-cheap-soma-online.htm buy cheap soma online

uxwi fjogt ldwgh
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/buy-cheap-soma-online.htm buy cheap soma online

tzpxlab jqzkdir rcqt kpbj
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-bay.htm soma bay

osgmjhw xgobnlv jcvyqu sqgplhk
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-bay.htm soma bay

osgmjhw xgobnlv jcvyqu sqgplhk
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-bay.htm soma bay

tlve yatuh tpucy
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-bay.htm soma bay

rsdpi
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-side-effects.htm soma side effects

rsdpi
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-side-effects.htm soma side effects

dcatq
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-muscle-relaxer.htm soma muscle relaxer

gcknw zrwmp
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-online-pharmacy.htm soma online pharmacy

gcknw zrwmp
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/soma-online-pharmacy.htm soma online pharmacy

qhax
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/order-soma-online.htm order soma online

acqr gtod dasp zqtvu
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/purchase-soma.htm purchase soma

gycn rcdvm ybeczi
http://liturgon.sinfree.net/soma/purchase-soma.htm purchase soma

acomplia online
acomplia
http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2769
[url=http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2769]acomplia[/url]

cheap acomplia online
cheap acomplia
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=735270053937
[url=https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=735270053937]cheap acomplia[/url]

order acomplia online
order acomplia
http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2769
[url=http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2769]order acomplia[/url]

acomplia online
acomplia
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=735270053937
[url=https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=735270053937]acomplia[/url]

buy acomplia online
buy acomplia
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=735270053937
[url=https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=735270053937]buy acomplia[/url]

acomplia online online
acomplia online
http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2769
[url=http://www.teenwag.com/showpage/2769]acomplia online[/url]

cheap acomplia online
cheap acomplia
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=7352700539371604387
[url=https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=7352700539371604387]cheap acomplia[/url]

acomplia online
acomplia
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=7352700539371604387
[url=https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=7352700539371604387]acomplia[/url]

buy acomplia online
buy acomplia
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=7352700539371604387
[url=https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=7352700539371604387]buy acomplia[/url]

acomplia online online
acomplia online
https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=7352700539371604387
[url=https://www.blogger.com/comment.g?blogID=2935828568190142661&postID=7352700539371604387]acomplia online[/url]

acomplia online
acomplia
http://www.britney.com/amazing-acomplia-discount-online
[url=http://www.britney.com/amazing-acomplia-discount-online]acomplia[/url]

buy acomplia online online
buy acomplia online
http://www.britney.com/amazing-acomplia-discount-online
[url=http://www.britney.com/amazing-acomplia-discount-online]buy acomplia online[/url]

cheap acomplia online
cheap acomplia
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showprofile.php?User=1319657
[url=http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showprofile.php?User=1319657]cheap acomplia[/url]

acomplia online
acomplia
http://lowest-acomplia-price.gaia.com/blog
[url=http://lowest-acomplia-price.gaia.com/blog]acomplia[/url]

buy acomplia online
buy acomplia
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showprofile.php?User=1319657
[url=http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showprofile.php?User=1319657]buy acomplia[/url]

acomplia online
acomplia
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showprofile.php?User=1319657
[url=http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showprofile.php?User=1319657]acomplia[/url]

acomplia online online
acomplia online
http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showprofile.php?User=1319657
[url=http://bbs.keyhole.com/ubb/showprofile.php?User=1319657]acomplia online[/url]

acomplia online online
acomplia online
http://lowest-acomplia-price.gaia.com/blog
[url=http://lowest-acomplia-price.gaia.com/blog]acomplia online[/url]

buy acomplia online
buy acomplia
http://lowest-acomplia-price.gaia.com/blog
[url=http://lowest-acomplia-price.gaia.com/blog]buy acomplia[/url]

buy acomplia online online
buy acomplia online
http://myprofile.cos.com/DrArinFeldman
[url=http://myprofile.cos.com/DrArinFeldman]buy acomplia online[/url]

buy acomplia online
buy acomplia
http://myprofile.cos.com/DrArinFeldman
[url=http://myprofile.cos.com/DrArinFeldman]buy acomplia[/url]

acomplia online
acomplia
http://myprofile.cos.com/DrArinFeldman
[url=http://myprofile.cos.com/DrArinFeldman]acomplia[/url]

cheap acomplia online
cheap acomplia
http://myprofile.cos.com/DrArinFeldman
[url=http://myprofile.cos.com/DrArinFeldman]cheap acomplia[/url]

acomplia online online
acomplia online
http://myprofile.cos.com/DrArinFeldman
[url=http://myprofile.cos.com/DrArinFeldman]acomplia online[/url]

Useful site. Thank you:-)
http://www.herbul.kokoom.com/xanax-xr/buy-online-xanax.htm buy online xanax

Useful site. Thank you!!!
http://dvax.fateback.com/cheap-xanax/sale-xanax.htm sale xanax

Useful site. Thank you!!!
http://dvax.fateback.com/cheap-xanax/sale-xanax.htm sale xanax

Useful site. Thanks!!
http://dvax.fateback.com/cheap-xanax/medication-xanax.htm medication xanax

Useful site. Thanks!!
http://dvax.fateback.com/cheap-xanax/medication-xanax.htm medication xanax

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://dvax.fateback.com/cheap-xanax/alcohol-xanax.htm alcohol xanax

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://dvax.fateback.com/cheap-xanax/alcohol-xanax.htm alcohol xanax

Useful site. Thank you.
http://dvax.fateback.com/cheap-xanax/generic-online-xanax.htm generic online xanax

Useful site. Thank you.
http://dvax.fateback.com/cheap-xanax/generic-online-xanax.htm generic online xanax

Useful site. Thank you.
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=228 Tramadolor 50mg, (Tramodol) Hexal 100tab $120

Useful site. Thank you.
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=228 Tramadolor 50mg, (Tramodol) Hexal 100tab $120

Useful site. Thank you:-)
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=232 Tramadolor 200mg, (Tramodol) Hexal 90tab $193

Useful site. Thank you:-)
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=232 Tramadolor 200mg, (Tramodol) Hexal 90tab $193

Useful site. Thanks:-)
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=231 Tramadolor 200mg, (Tramodol) Hexal 60tab $131

Useful site. Thanks:-)
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=231 Tramadolor 200mg, (Tramodol) Hexal 60tab $131

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=229 Tramadolor 100mg, (Tramodol) Hexal 60tab $128

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=229 Tramadolor 100mg, (Tramodol) Hexal 60tab $128

Useful site. Thanks!!
http://www.herbul.kokoom.com/drug-xanax/xanax-xr.htm xanax xr

Useful site. Thanks!!
http://www.herbul.kokoom.com/drug-xanax/xanax-xr.htm xanax xr

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://arbalet.fateback.com/xanax-tablet/g3722-xanax.htm g3722 xanax

Useful site. Thank you!
http://arbalet.fateback.com/xanax-tablet/fedex-xanax.htm fedex xanax

Useful site. Thanks!!!
http://arbalet.fateback.com/xanax-tablet/xanax-and-weight-gain.htm xanax and weight gain

Useful site. Thanks!!!
http://arbalet.fateback.com/xanax-tablet/xanax-and-weight-gain.htm xanax and weight gain

Useful site. Thank you!!!
http://arbalet.fateback.com/xanax-tablet/xanax-bar-picture.htm xanax bar picture

Useful site. Thank you!!!
http://arbalet.fateback.com/xanax-tablet/xanax-bar-picture.htm xanax bar picture

Useful site. Thank you!!!
http://pistol.fateback.com/levitra-viagra/online-sale-viagra.htm online sale viagra

Useful site. Thank you!!!
http://pistol.fateback.com/levitra-viagra/online-sale-viagra.htm online sale viagra

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://pistol.fateback.com/levitra-viagra/buy-cheap-viagra.htm buy cheap viagra

Useful site. Thanks:-)
http://pistol.fateback.com/levitra-viagra/cheap-online-viagra.htm cheap online viagra

Useful site. Thanks:-)
http://pistol.fateback.com/levitra-viagra/cheap-online-viagra.htm cheap online viagra

Useful site. Thanks.
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=232 Tramadolor 200mg, (tramodol) Hexal 90tab $193

Useful site. Thanks.
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=232 Tramadolor 200mg, (tramodol) Hexal 90tab $193

Useful site. Thanks!
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=367 Tramadol (ultram) 150 Mg, Hexal 90tab $219

Useful site. Thanks!
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=367 Tramadol (ultram) 150 Mg, Hexal 90tab $219

Useful site. Thanks!!!
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=363 Tramadol (ultram) 100 Mg, Hexal 90tab $189

Useful site. Thanks!!!
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=363 Tramadol (ultram) 100 Mg, Hexal 90tab $189

Useful site. Thanks!!!
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=468 Tenuate 75mg 30tab $120

Useful site. Thanks!
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view_subcat&subcat=Tenuate Weight Loss Tenuate

Useful site. Thanks!
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view_subcat&subcat=Tenuate Weight Loss Tenuate

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=470 Tenuate Retard 75mg 90tab $190

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=470 Tenuate Retard 75mg 90tab $190

Useful site. Thanks.
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=560 Regenon 25 mg x30 30tabs $144

Useful site. Thanks.
http://cyberanet.net/cart.php?action=view&id=560 Regenon 25 mg x30 30tabs $144

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://three-x.com/tgp/ Free porn on Three-X TGP

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://three-x.com/tgp/ Free porn on Three-X TGP

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=32 Alprazolam Sandoz 0,25 Mg 50tabs $89

Useful site. Thank you!!
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=32 Alprazolam Sandoz 0,25 Mg 50tabs $89

Useful site. Thanks.
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view_subcat&subcat=Alprazolam Cheap Alprazolam

Useful site. Thank you!
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=468 Tenuate 75mg 30tab $120

Useful site. Thanks:-)
http://herbal-group.com/drugsbroker/cart.php?action=view&id=210 Valium 5 Mg Roche 50tab $110

tcsxezylu eiwzc okty lnbekcq yojaf vzwk zenc http://www.vjnwhqfym.sxtvm.com

worfulhnd ezyi qnlzeabos cygfjdloh qlow dhronf tneul

http://BuyTramadolOnline.ws/

E Fav,

When I read that line outloud to myself it sounded right but the inflection is important. My line was a response to someone whom I think treats ANY belief about marriage as a religious belief so it was meant as a counter to that line of thought. Certainly some beliefs about marriage fall under the religious realm.

I ask also, What IS all the fuss about gay marriage??
I don't get it.

Peace

Anon,

Lovely quoting of Emily Dickinson. She didn't use punctuation, only dashes. And, you can read any of her poems to "Puttin' on the Ritz." Maybe that's why she's one of my favorite poets? But I digress...

Greg, you say, "Any belief a person has about marriage is NOT a religious belief."

Is that so? Then what's all the fuss about gay marriage?

In the words of that great philosopher, Emily Dickinson:

Much Madness is divinest Sense
To a discerning Eye,
Much Sense, the starkest Madness--
'Tis the majority
In this, as all, prevail;
Assent, and you are sane--
Demur, you're straightway Dangerous
And handled with a chain...

(Forgive me if I got any of the capitalization or punctuation wrong; I'm doing it from memory.)

I realized something important a long time ago: the Truth exists whether I believe it or not. My belief in it, or lack thereof, does not make it more or less True. The majority's belief in it, or lack thereof, does not make it more or less True. I can believe that the hole isn't there, but if I try to walk over it, I'll still fall in.

Greg,

This is a religous forum and I wanted to clarify the context for my thoughts. Obviously there are many "non-religous" ideas that can be measured as to their accuracy. For example, a peanut butter sandwich is much better using Skippy than Jiff. Everyone knows that.

Very fair question on marriage. Most religions have some type of "spiritual" instruction about marriage although not all people do. My particular religion has some defined beliefs about it as does Islam, Christianity(non-catholic), Catholocism, Eclatarianism, etc.

However, you're right. We could argue aspects of marriage that have nothing to do with religion. I use it just because many people have some religous significance attached to it.

Also, my motive of wishing you happiness is genuine...A part of being completely open-minded is showing love and care regardless of whether you agree with someone.

I can't resist.....

Hey Owen,

Why did you add the word "religious" when responding to my post.? I did not specify religious ideas. You want to argue with straw men? Fine, but don't stuff straw down my shirt.

and......

How is it that whenever you talk about religious ideas you always bring up marriage (and often to snakes or goats). Religions did not invent marriage, they speak to the institution and conduct the ceremonies (often but not always) but marriage is a SOCIAL construct and LEGAL construct outside of religion. Any belief a person has about marriage is NOT a religious belief.

If I thought you were sincere about wishing me happiness on my path I would say "that is as nice a prayer as one can say to another", however........

peace

Rev Tutu said, "These two and other adherents of the faiths of the East must clearly be in touch with God through their devotional and ascetic methods. Anything that can assist me in praying better, that helps me to be still and centered, recollected, I am happy to employ."

Well said. All faiths try to reach god in their own way and are just as valid as the other. There is no right or wrong way when it comes to spirituality. The eucharist is no more or less important than sacrifices in the temples of Durga (http://www.buzzle.com/editorials/10-16-2003-46583.asp).

This is very liberating.

Happiness.

Henry,

I believe all "religous" ideas are as good as the other. My post did include that distinction. I'm sorry if it didn't.

If we try to make one religous idea better than the other it means there is some type of measuring stick to do this. Unfortunately, there are none. To try and measure religous truth is impossible. We've learned that there are no absolutes with religous or moral truth; and no ancient writings can be trusted.

All religous truth is dependent upon the individuals culture, experience, and education.

Therefore marrying a snake is just as valid as marrying a human.

Would anyone care to do a ranking of the moral value of the following two ideas for Owen's benefit

Idea 1: Medical experiments should be done on Burmese people without their knowledge because they are a sub-human race.
Idea 2: People should have an equal chance to be baptised into the Mormon Church, regardless of their racial background.

Owen would have us believe that one idea is as good as another.

Well put again. Thank you.

It is my overwhelming feeling that Owen should be ignored, but he is sort of fun to play with, in a perverse kind of way.

Kind of like a snake.

Presumably his it attempting to comment ironically on the Bishop and other inclusionists, because he clearly can't be serious.

But his irony is so lame and inane as to be completely without traction.

What one is left with is a person who trivializes a thread started by Bishop Tutu.

And to my mind that is not harmless, or totally worthy of ignoring.

Once again I must explain a few things:

* People insist on grouping me in a religion I have not addressed. My religion has no name, I have just listed some of the tenets I hold. It's a personal religion composed of views from a variety of other obscure religions.

* I repeat, I have the greatest respect for Rev. Tutu. It just so happened that his forum was the one in which I posted my new thinking. Partially because of his emphasis on learning from all religions and masters. This is something I support strongly. Because it holds the view that no one has the right answer and if they think they do it must be based on their ignorance, intolerance, or ethnocentricity among other biases.

* It is also interesting that the majority of the anger I feel from those responding to my posts is towards one religion. Again, a religion I have said nothing about. I am as objective about it as I am all other religions.

* Greg, you say that not all religous ideas should be put on par with all the rest in the marketplace of ideas. This seems to violate the spirit of the "onfaith" forums. You seem to indicate there should be a ranking of ideas. Some are more intelligent, moral, factual, or spiritual. I must ask, how do we determine these rankings? Who is right? Who is more spiritual? I outright reject this ranking idea. It may mean someone could be right about their faith and someone could be wrong. This would lead to feeling of superiority of one over another. This feels wrong to me.

* Happiness to you Greg as you find your path...

Certainly the best way to deal with people like Owen is to ignore them, which I would do if actually face to face with him, but in this format it is really not a total waste of time to respond since I visit this site only when I have time to waste.

His "faux" tolerance is really quite laughable, because it shows he has no idea what tolerance is or how the views he truly holds (look at his initial criticisms of Bishop Tutu to see the real Owen) are intolerant.

Bishop Tutu asks us all to find out what it is we can learn from other faiths and realize non of us has a monopoly on truth regardless of what religion we espouse. Owen mocks him first and THEN starts asking us to be more "tolerant" of him and those other faiths which might want to marry animals or believe thay can defy gravity and fly (presumably while seated).

Finding something to learn from other faiths is not the same as accepting everything that faith practices as valid. If someone says that they believe that all life, not just human, is valuable and should be revered , on a certain level I cannot disagree. As a matter of fact their are parts of Christian thinking which affirm this as well. Many Christians feel we need to be better stewards of our earth and learn to exist more responsibly within our environment which includes animals. If that same person then says "and because of that belief I am gonna marry a goat!!", I would have to say he has taken it too far and I would therefore not "support" the validity of that action. Many people (and I put Owen in this group but possibly unfairly) would argue that the sheer act of tolerating a persons belief in an animals spiritual equivalency would automatically lead to them wanting to marry a goat and that is why they vehemantly oppose any "wavering' on some "spiritual norm". They see slippery slopes everywhere, except where THEY are standing.

Being tolerant of someones beliefs is one thing, being tolerant of how those beliefs make them want to act is another thing entirely.

If you believe something that nobody else believes, BY DEFINITION, you hold an unusual belief. You are in an extreme minority. Are you wrong ?? Who knows?? But the rest of the world does not have to (and should not) put your idea on par with all the rest in the marketplace of ideas. That is asking us to live in Absurdsville. That is not intolerance that is "waiting for more evidence before I waste time considering". This is the EXACT reason Intelligent Design should NOT be taught in science classes. It is not even close (from a science standpoint) to having the validity of Evolution.

Owen is not asking for tolerance, hes asking for ignorance.

Peace

Dear George,

It's nice to talk to a live person. A lot of dead people seem to congregate here.

It's unfortunate that you would call my ideas "hare-brained". In the spirit of openness and acceptance I encourage you to be a little more accepting. I do understand all of us are on a different path to full understanding of other's ideas.

Let me clarify, I have no interest in marrying a snake. I do however, believe in others right to do so. After all, there is no natural order in the biological world. This allows us to have meaningful relationships with other forms of life. For example, a tree (http://www.circleoflifefoundation.org/).

I support your right to have whatever view of gravity you like.

I also affirm someones right to have science be their god.

As I told Betty, I have the highest regard for Rev. Tutu. I'm sorry if my posts have indicated anything other.

I do take the law very seriously although parts of it are based on religions I don't adhere to.

I wish you well.

Viejita del oeste:
You said, "I'm still trying to figure out what marrying a goat has to do with the rest of the discussion....."

Throughout history various religions have held to a view that the "natural order" of biology gives us instruction for familial relationships. I now reject this as archaic. In the spirit of openness to all life forms, I believe in "interspecies" marriage.

Those that disagree with me are entitled to their opinion. But this is my truth, based upon my culture, my education, my upbringing, my understanding of the universe.

Thank you for your kind words and honest questions. Happiness.

Owen
You misunderstand (willfully?) my point:

1. You are clearly entitled to believe ANYTHING you like.
2. If it is interesting, I and the others here will pay attention to it.
3. "Truth", as you indicate, is a problematic goal to reach.

4. Other people are also entitled to believe whatever they like, including that your ideas are hare-brained.
5. I agree that just because you are in the minority doesn't mean you are wrong, but in truth claims that have been scientifically investigated like Gravity's nature,
if 15,000 scientist believe one thing on the basis of experiment and you believe another,
I am going with the scientists if my life depends on it.
6. I for one don't care if you marry a snake, except from a "be kind to animals" standpoint.

I also accept you for what you are. I believe you you are a person who reduces the level of discussion concerning a Nobel Peace Prize winner's serious points to inane and virtually content-free intellectual games.

But I could be wrong.

And you are entitled to be who you are, as long as you don't violate the law.

Owen:

Although I usually don't agree with your thoughts, I am gonna have to say that you just made one heck of a very good point. Keep it up.

Dear Mr. Gallup,

The beauty of these forums is that being in the "majority" or "minority" is of no consequence.

Faith is not about the number of adherents who ascribe to it. It is not about having "support" for a position. It is not about testing your beliefs against anyone elses moral codes. It is not about being measured against someone elses "absolutes".

It is about how a person feels about a set of tenets. How they view the world; therefore, the open-minded people in this forum should accept me for who I am and what I believe. Even if I am in the .000001 percentile. To do anything else would be hypocritical.

Even if I do believe a person can marry a snake...who are they to judge my belief system. Where in the world would they get the idea you can't. From the concept that it goes against the "natural order"? I've heard this argument used before. They've proven this is not true. Perhaps someone was born to love snakes. Why should they judge that person using something like "natural order". We've already seen them prove this is absurd.

Desmond,
It is an honor to comment on your forum. I have a prayer bench which measures 16"long, 6"wide and 6"high, with 2 brass swivels to allow for folding when not in use. It was made 25 years ago when I saw Trappist monks use them during a 4am meditation period. The practice was not sanctioned by the church, nor was it frowned upon. For 25 years my alarm clock is set @4am, and just when I feel in tune with the holy hour, the clocks change to daylight savings,spring ahead or fall back. That is a man made adjustment to the cosmic timepiece I could do without.

Thank you everyone agreeing with me.

I really liked your posts.

Only one yogi is truly a friend to all the world. Hey Hey Boo Boo.
Owen you have the right to believe and worship
as you wish to.This is Americas gift to it's people,what a great place to be.

Dear Viejita del oeste:

You have demonstrated yourself to be a wise and discerning person.

So the implied answer to your rhetorical question is, as you knew when you posed it:
Less than Zero.

Best to You
and thanks for all your comments in these various discussions,
which always add much to the conversation.

I'm still trying to figure out what marrying a goat has to do with the rest of the discussion.....

Owen - thank you for exercising the minds of the people posting here. Though they may not appreciate it now, hopefully someday they will realize how hard you tried to contribute to their understanding of religion and it's place in the human heart, mind and most of all, the imagination.

Owen

I have completed my poll of this thread, and either

You are Right
and All the Rest of the World is Wrong

or Everyone thinks you are a crackpot.

Your confidence in your approach and in your ideas in the face of near unanimous derision and moral approbation is quite remarkable. Congratulations on your contrary=ness.

Greg,

Understanding the concept of yogic flying is a process. I'm sorry you feel the need to call those who view gravity differently than you "ignorant". I do hope you can become more compassionate towards those with alternate beliefs. These forums are supposed to increase tolerance. Here are a couple of sites about yogic flying that may enlighten you:

http://goldendome.org/Flying/Physics/index.htm
http://goldendome.org/

Also, It's also unfortunate that you have categorized those who believe in open marriage between species as "absurd". Although I don't practice this, I do support and respect those who do. And why is it that several people have lumped me in a religion or belief system I have not claimed. I have a set of beliefs that work for me. I'm trying to be open-minded about those who believe differently on these sites.

I trust you will find peace in the way you have chosen.

On further review:

I was wrong to not consider Owen obscene.

I will defer further Owen characterizations to my friend and brilliant communicator Henry James

Peace

Owen, Owen ,Owen

How many people think it is OK to marry an animal?? While there may be some, who is going to recognize that marriage as legal?? You don't need to read the Bible to know the absurdity of that behavior. That is a non theological issue.

People with alternate understandings of gravity are simply ignorant as are people who think the earth is only thousands of years old. Ignorant people are usually harmless unless you make them president and give them control over nuclear weapons.

I see some clarification is in order. Trying to have an open mind is new for me, and I may not be expressing my new beliefs as accurately as I should.

Andrea, Yes these are my real beliefs. I know religions who believe they can physically float through the air...or at least hop long distances. This seems like an interesting concept so I truly adopted this into my belief system. It may be hard for you to understand, but I do believe this, just as the other religion's adherents do. I've also adopted a rather broad idea of marriage, including marrying other species. This is rare, but has happened. Some faiths have women marrying Cobra's. (see more info here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human-animal_marriage).

Betty, Please let me clarify. I believe my first post has been greatly misunderstood. I think Rev. TuTu deserves all the respect that can be given for his human rights achievements. He is truly a great man. I also fully believe that we can learn from other religions on how to seek God and that we should respect every religious belief, however odd; for example believing in no Great Spirit, yet believing every human has a spirit; shoot, even non-humans have a spirit. And this is why marrying a goat should be respected, because she probably has the spirit of a deceased human. Many animists religions (not all) believe this and it should be respected. You said, “You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but all beliefs are NOT equally worthy of respect”. I guess I misunderstood the entire purpose of this forum. I thought it was to discuss all faiths, respect them, and learn from them. Do you really believe that? Or do you just respect those you agree with? I’m sorry you don’t believe I am serious. Do you question everyone’s faith in like manner? Again, I reiterate, I have the greatest of respect for Rev. TuTu. I’m sorry you feel my posts are meant to be humorous.

Henry, I am most amazed with your aggression; especially from a dead man. You say, “You and others are certainly entitled to hold any lame-brained beliefs you would like.” Lame-brained? Tsk. Tsk. This does not sound very open minded. Do you really respect Buddhists, Animists, Mahrishi’s, Moonies, Christians, Jews, Muslims, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, and adherents to my new set of beliefs?

Greg, Infantile? You think people who believe it is o.k. to marry an animal are infantile? You believe people who have an alternate understanding of gravity are infantile? You sir, are a bigot. Check out Wikipedia. People, including myself, believe these are valid practices. Oooops, forgive me for calling you a bigot. I respect you as a human being and your progress on the path to complete understanding of other’s beliefs.

Marco Polo, I honor your right to misspell “bad”. In fact, even though I have a phd from Oxford, my spelling is horrible. I hope that doesn’t bother anyone. In fact I misspelled my name in the first post.

Jacob, I respect you greatly. I think the Eclati faith is basically where my new belief system is headed. Now, please take your meds.

Obscenity When I See It

Greg my friend and admired Interlocutor:

While totally granting your ability to make your own definition,

i was using Obscene in the sense of the following Merriam-Webster entry for the word:

"repulsive by reason of crass disregard of moral or ethical principles"

Thank you again for your elevated and smart contributions to this discussion.

Your Dedicated Servant
Henry

Marco, Old Bean

Of course not!

Your name isn't Old-Fashioned,
it is positively Ancient.

Keep on Truckin,
Polo Man.

Henry

Owen,

Your beliefs do not come across as obscene, simply infantile. You create false dichotomies and then attack the side you disagree with.

If you can find one person who has attempted to marry a goat I would be very surprised. Certainly there are no people whos only source of determining whether marrying a goat is a good thing or not is the Bible.

Now there are plenty of people who use the Bible as their guide when wanting to have multiple wives. Seems to me they are using the Bible to simply let them "do whatever they want".

Right on Henry!
Hey, you weren't referring to me when you said that line about old fashioned names, were you?

Owen

Even deceased there is more significant electrical activity in my cranium than some others on this post with old-fashioned names.

You and others are certainly entitled to hold any lame-brained beliefs you would like.

Are any beliefs worthy of respect and immune to criticism and even castigation: Of Course Not. Surely you realize that.

Betty's point is Very Important, and you seem to have no respect or appreciation for it.

Bishop Tutu is a NOBEL PEACE PRIZE winner for his role in ending one of the most despicable human practices in history.

And you, in response to his thoughts, make 7th-grade level jokes. That IS morally obscene.

And while you are entitled to do so (you DID so) your actions and obscure beliefs deserve no respect.

Owen
Andrea's point is most germane.

Mr Tutu wrote a compassionate post embracing many different *serious* conceptions of God (including Secular Humanists who believe in no god but believe in being humane to their fellows)

You responded with a satiric set of "beliefs" that made fun of people who ... well, your target was lame and fuzzy, but it seemed to be aimed at people who thought there were many approaches to God.

Should we respect your lame humor in reaction to the eloquent beliefs of a man who has done enormous good for his fellow man? No.

You are entitled to believe whatever you want, but all beliefs are NOT equally worthy of respect.

The belief that Christians (or Muslims or Mormons) are God's chosen people and that all others hold invalid beliefs and will go to hell

is NOT worthy of respect, morally or intellectually.

I am not saying that is what you believe. It is hard to tell. What dismays me is the lack of respect you show for the Bishop and his views and accomplishments, and your inane humor in response to his thoughts.

Baaaaaaaad boy!

Baaaaaaaad Owen!

Owen F.K.A. Anon,

But were those your true beliefs, or were you just taking it to the extreme simply to make a point? If those were your true beliefs, and I have a suspicion that they were not, they should be respected. However, if I am right and you don't really believe your friend should marry that goat, you might have to earn some of that respect back.

Marco,

Yes you're right. I now reveal my name...

As you can probably tell, I'm a little older than most on the board. Owen isn't that popular of a name with the younger generation. But at least I'm not dead like Henry James; poor fellow.

Betty,

I'm sorry my beliefs come across as obscene. I thought the folks on this site would affirm my right to hold whatever religious belief I wanted...based on truth as I saw it.

Because, as Mr.Tutu pointed out, no one has a corner on the God Market. God can be whatever I make him to be or not be and my truth can be whatever I want it to be.

Anonymous:

At least put a name in the box, because insults from the peanut gallery are useless. Grow a pair buddy. Cheers.

Betty,

I'm sorry that your narrow-mindedness caused you to group me with a religion I did not even mention.

I celebrate that you find truth in 300 years of objective science. May it bring you happiness. I hope you will celebrate with me in my new view of gravitational truth.

Oooopss,

I forgot one:

6) I'm thinking about going to my neighbor's wedding. He's marrying a goat, but with my newfound open-mindedness, that is not a problem. Goats are people too. My previous view was that only "people" should marry, but I see that this is way too narrow. I wish them many years of happiness.

Anonymous

If you are unable to see the difference between asserting that

1. The satellite will reenter the earth with 6.8 units of gravitational force based on 300 years of objective scientific evidence

and

2. Jesus is the only path to my body and soul being resurrected and saved after I die,

then I would advise you to take a course in critical thinking,
or to read a fairly basic book on truth.

My brother Henry James would opine that, rather than being clever, your post is infantile (more precisely, Junior High School level humor).

In the context of a post by a profoundly serious spiritual man of great spiritual accomplishment, it borders on the obscene.

These forums have challenged me about my closed mindedness. I really need to be open to all truth, whereever that truth may be found and whoever may hold it. Who am I to judge what someone believes. I am beginning to open my mind...but, it's difficult. My past education is hindering me, but here are some concepts I'm beginning to be open to...

1) Perhaps 2 + 2 does not equal 4. It might really equal 16 to the 3 power.

2) Maybe the sun is not 90+ million miles away. Everything appears to say that it is that far, but I choose to think differently. It might really be just outside our atmosphere. Your truth may say it's far, far away. That's fine for you but I choose to believe differently.

3) I think gravity may be a figment of our imagination. I'm beginning to think I can float...and who are you to tell me I can't.

4) Maybe a person doesn't really need a heart to live. After all you don't really know until it stops. Perhaps everyone we "think" died from a heart problem, really died from something else and it just appeared to be a cardiac reason.

5) Perhaps Julias Ceasar, Chandragupta II, George washington, and King Henry VIII never really existed. They could have all been fictional characters created to support some political initiative of the day. Everyone that wrote about them is dead. And can we really trust eyewitness accounts recorded by other people.

I really want to be open minded about these things and I hope you do to. After all if there are no absolutes, if no written document from the past can be trusted, if all truth is dependent upon the individual accepting it then these new ideas could be possible. I'm feeling very liberated right now. I hope no one responds and tries to box me in with thier view about these concepts. But if you do, great. I will observe your priviledge to believe your truth. Hmmm...my checking account should be larger now with my new view of mathmatical truth. I hope the banker agrees.

For Wesley and Ken
and other professors of Christianity's
Exclusive Claim to God

Bishop Spong's current posting contains the following quote in a post well worth reading:

"Those who think there is must face the fact that they have created an idol and installed it in the place reserved for God alone. Only those who worship an idol can believe that they possess, inside their faith tradition alone, the full meaning of God, a concept that is breathtaking in both its arrogance and its ignorance."

Again, Ken's breathtakingly arrogant attitude towards Bishop Tutu is a perfect example of what the Bishop is talking about,

as is Wesley's assurance that his dogma is the only true way to approach God and spiritual experience.

And it another affirmation of the Great Spirit of Archbishop Tutu, one of the true heroes of our time.

Well said!

I applaud your open-mindedness.

Thank you Desmond for speaking The Truth. No one has monopoly on God. It is God who has monopoly over all of us. The sooner we understand this the sooner we can hold hands and be One in front of God. This is the only way we can glorify Him - by believing in our own Oneness and thus we believe in His Oneness. One Creation made by One God. There is no two, no seperation but only One and thus only Unity. The rest is Ego and if there is any hell, evil or darkness, ego is it. Ego can only exist in seperation. In Unity there is only God.

A repeat of my summary about the founders of the major contemporary religions:

1. Abraham founder of three major religions was probably a mythical character. If he was real, he was at best a combination of at least three men.

2. Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of his sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian sects.

3. Mohammed, an illiterate, possibly hallucinating Arab, also had embellishing/hallucinating scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the Koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

4. Luther, Calvin, Smith et al, founders of Christian-based religions, also suffered from the belief in/hallucinations of "pretty wingy thingie" visits and "prophecies" for profits analogous to the myths of Catholicism (resurrections, apparitions, ascensions and immaculate conceptions).

5. Hinduism - "Hinduism cannot be described as an organized religion. It is not founded by any individual. Hinduism is God centred and therefore one can call Hinduism as founded by God, because the answer to the question ‘Who is behind the eternal principles and who makes them work?’ will have to be ‘Cosmic power, Divine power, God’"

The caste/laborer system and cow worship are problems when saying a fair and rational God founded Hinduism."

6. Buddhism- "Buddhism began in India about 500 years before the birth of Christ. The people living at that time had become disillusioned with certain beliefs of Hinduism including the caste system, which had grown extremely complex. The number of outcasts (those who did not belong to any particular caste) was continuing to grow."

"However, in Buddhism, like so many other religions, fanciful stories arose concerning events in the life of the founder, Siddhartha Gautama (fifth century B.C.):"

"Archaeological discoveries have proved, beyond a doubt, his historical character, but apart from the legends we know very little about the circumstances of his life (Alexandra David-Neel, Buddhism: fts Doctrines and fts Methods, New York: St. Martids Press, 1977, p. 15). "

Bottom line: There are many good ways of living but be aware of the hallucinations/embellishments and myths surrounding the founders of said rules of life.

olympic games and budaism games.
the tales of the two mountains.
olympus and himaliya.
both games are ritualism based on idolism.
christianity on the other side is based on the idolism of the son of god .
to claim that the above idolism is part or parcel of monotheism is violation to monotheism.

the one originator who created this universe is the same one who own and posses this universe,is the same one who sustain and maintain this universe is the same who sets rules in this universe is the same one worthy of all worship .
please study the history of monotheism and the history of idolism.

Bishop Tutu's response to this question brings to mind theological conversations I have had with two very good frinds of mine - one a Unitarian minnister, and the other a witch.

The Unitarian minister told me "God is not a noun. God is a verb. It's not a question of objectifying or anthropomorphising. It's about what you do. Every time you do something that sends a positive vibration out into the universe, you're doing God." She'll make a fine pagan someday.

The witch said, "The more I read about different fatihs, the more I see that, once you strip away te theological and denominational BS, they boil down to two basic ideas. One - you are a part of something bigger than yourself. Two - be nice to each other. If we could all keep those two ideas in mind, the rest would take care of itself."

Those two conversations form much of the basis of my rather eclectic spiritual path - one which is primarily pagan, but also incorporates elements from the Big 3 monotheisitc faiths, as well as many Eastern ones, and a few ideas that, as far as I know, are purely my own. I don't feel conflicted in the least.

I have never met Greg before,
and only encountered his post this afternoon
so I have no allegiance to him
other than that of admiration for a principled and humane person.

Let me underline his statement to you, Ken:

For someone like you
to call Bishop Tutu a failure at anything
IS
as Greg notes,
Pathetic.

Who DO you think you are to do so.

Bishop Tutu is a man of great spirit, humanity, and accomplishment.

You have only demonstrated small-mindedness and vindictiveness.

You should be ashamed of yourself. But I doubt that you have any shame.

Bishop Tutu. Thanks fort he wonderful post.

Wesley.

You quoted the Bible
“Jesus said no one comes to the father except through the son.”

In the Conversations With God series Neal Donald Walsch answers the above statement much more eloquently than I could.

Mr. Walsch said that “If Jesus could put his message in contemporary terms , in the words people use today, speaking to people with today’s greater sophistication and greater understanding I believe he would say. “I observe that you do not believe in yourself. You do not believe that humans are divine. Clearly you could use an example of that. I will be that example. I am that.

I and the Father are One. I am the Son of God and you and I are siblings. That means you are the sons and daughters of God as well.”

One of the reasons it that carries a deeper meaning for me is the fact I believe there are more than one way. I made a post saying that if we looked at the religions and looked past the details of the stories we may find they are more alike than we think. One of the posters graciously provided a link to the book Jesus and Buddha; Parallel Sayings.

There whole book is filled with parallel sayings. How did this occur in two different places hundreds of years apart?

We are back to the old what do you take literally and what is interpreted in the Bible (or other religious writing).

Ken,

Which part of Bettys post (which she borrowed from me and gave due credit) do you think is "pure fantasy"? The part about early Christians having no texts?? The part about Romans stories about their Caesars?? The part about early Christians thumbing there noses at Rome?? The part about Rome hijacking Christianity, maybe not the best term but it expresses what Rome was interested in.

Rome was in the business of "Empire building" and not into distributing Jesus' radical love.

If it was completely up to Rome we would be at Caesar DCCLXXIV and we would have the previous 773 all sitting round a big table with God in demi-god status.

Calling Desmond Tutu a failure at anything is pathetic. Who are you to call him a failure?

You are quite a jewel Ken. How can anything that CS Lewis , Chesterton or anyone say "convincingly demolish" anything Tutu says?? It may convince you but then again you didn't need convincing did you?

Could you please go over the "hermeneutical rules" of scripture interpretation for us Ken?? It would be really helpful for us.

I imagine they go something like this;

1) Every word of scripture is TRUE, there is no context.

2) Every word of scripture is TRUE, do not question it.

3) Every word of scripture is TRUE, anyone who says otherwise is the devil incarnate.

I really hate being sarcastic but your comment about Tutu being a failure is soooo outrageous you should be laughed off this board. I'm sure you are a good well intentioned person Ken but you have NO STANDING to call anyone of Bishop Tutus status a failure. Who the he!! do you think YOU are??

Peace

Betty quoting Norrie:
"My Karma ran over my dogma."

I love it.

Thanks Techno

Ken: I agree: all religions are not expressions of the same truth, at least in the way many fundamentalist Christians and Muslims internalize and distort their religions
(and they all distort).

To think one's own religion is the Only True Path is quite preposterous.

There is no way to verify the truth claims of one religion against the others, and all of them who claim exclusivity contradict each other.

Unless one wants to live in a universe where logic does not apply, one must reject the Jesus it the ONE True Way dogma.

As Norrie says
My Karma ran over my dogma.

Peace Brother

BETTY, defending yourself on a blog against arrogant, snarky atheists hardly qualifies as making me toxic. People like HENRY JAMES for too long have been able to defame our LORD without any opposition. I will still pray for him but I will never sit back and let snarky atheists call me or other believers stupid, idiots etc. Jesus turned the other cheek but of course he was an exceptionally good sport too.

Ken,

Betty's is no more fantasy than yours.

Betty:
Your historical reconstruction is pure fantasy. The period is richly documented as is the origin and provenance of Christian doctrine and it does not support your agenda of rescuing the "real story" from Christian believers.

The "all religions are expressions of the same truth" story that Bishop Tutu has offered has been convincingly demolished by numerous writers, Chesterton, C.S. Lewis, and others. No one can subscribe to it that has any appreciation of the exclusive claims of Jesus Christ.

Bishop Tutu has demonstrated true heroism in his opposition to apartheid and the rebuilding of South Africa. As a theologian and philosopher he is a failure.

REASON can only work with a prioris, it can neither establish nor disprove them. There are more ways than one to interpret Scripture. Not all are valid and there are reasonable hermeneutical rules that prohibit an infinitely protean view that embraces any attempt at transcendence.

Greg-

I agree. Christians who can walk the talk are the best testament to their faith.

Greg
you are my new hero.

the toxicity of humans like Wesley is largely due to his felt need to protect the supremacy of his beliefs.

the important thing is NOT
Jesus is going to save ME

it is
I can save others, through loving kindness and compassion.

Follow Jesus's teachings of helping the poor, don't use Jesus to bludgeon your fellow man.

Thought for the day;

Christians should stop arguing about the authenticity of their particular beliefs and start making sure their actions are authentic representations of those beliefs.

Betty,

More than happy (I guess that means happier or happiest :) ) to be of assistance.

HENRY JAMES did you say something? It sounded like the drivel of an arrogant small mind. So naturally, I thought it was you. I was right! That was your drivel! Good now I can go back to more important things.

My dementia (remember I am deceased) caused me to make two errors.

It was TS Eliot who said the statement ABOUT ME, not the reverse.

And the exact quote is
"he had a mind so fine no idea could VIOLATE it"

Wesley
You confirm why I, and the rest of the world,
should fear the likes of you.

Your attitudes have much in common with those 19 men who flew the planes into those buildings 6 years ago.

I once said of a writer as a compliment:
"he had a mind so fine that no idea could penetrate it."

I could say the same of you, but in a less complimentary fashion.

If "intellectual" means able to think, I will accept the compliment from you.

To follow up my Brother Henry's post above with some political context, I steal Greg's post from over on the Palau thread (thanks Greg)

About the facts of the original believers that get left out when "defining" Christianity, you may not want all facts to be told. First off the original Christians had no texts they read from, it was purely oratory. The "stories" they told of their "God" or "Messiah" were consistent with the stories of their times. In the ancient "marketplace of ideas about God" there was a lot of competition. Rome was the big dog and their" Caesars" were all born of virgins, they all were resurrected after their deaths and ascended to be with God. When early Christians were asked about their "savior" they told these same stories of their God as an affront to Rome, to sort of say "Those Caesars are no big deal our God did that too". It was as a slap to Roman authorities. They did not believe it about the Caesars and they did not "have" to believe it about their "Christ" to be considered "in". Early Christian followers were communal and believed in the social teachings of Jesus regarding grace, justice and love. If anyone became part of their community it was because of how their "beliefs" made them behave, not because of what "facts" they believed to be true about Jesus.

It wasn't until Rome hijacked Christianity (a very smart move politically) that the current "dogmas" arose. Councils met to determine "truth", formalize texts and create rules so that Rome knew who was "believing" the right stuff. They replaced their Caesars with Jesus. Rome had no response for the "radical hospitality" that Christians of those days lived their lives with, but they were a threat. They threatened to expose Roman doctrine to be extremely brutal, selfish and elitist, amongst other things. They could kill all the Christians, like they did Jesus, but they knew that would be a recipe for complete social upheaval. So they decided if you can't beat them, join them. Except they joined them and transformed them into something Roman, not Christian.

What we have today is a far cry from the "original" Christians. You want to look back but not far enough and not deep enough.
Jesus would have lived with those original Christians and died a happy man. He would have vomited at what Rome did to his name.

The moral to the story is; Watch out for the religion that is embraced by the most powerful people it will most likely be "designed" to preserve that power and find out who the "opposition" is.

Spiritually, there is no question that I for one will follow B. Tutu and not Bishop Wesley."

I will follow the bible and not the tortured intellectual gymnastics of those who try to twist the straightforward words of our Lord. Jesus said no one comes to the father except through the son. Not "no one comes to the father except through the son" but "insert your politically correct statement here". Just because it makes you uncomfortable Mr. "expert' does not mean you get to add a bunch of caveats.

Since I am America's Greatest Deceased Literary Critic

Let me comment of the prose of
Gandalf and ALM
in comparison to that of
Wesley and Glen.

A few points:
1. I have never seen a text that admits of only one interpretation.
2. I know the Bible thoroughly, and it *demands* many interpretations, as it is thoroughgoingly contradictory, ambiguous, and of dubious provenance.
3. Wesley, for example, is hopelessly naive (and possibly arrogant) to think that his interpretation of the essence of Christ's message is the only valid one.
4. Spiritually, there is no question that I for one will follow B. Tutu and not Bishop Wesley.
5. Historically speaking, it is such narrow attitudes and claims to exclusive truth as are expressed by Wesley and Glen that lead to religious wars, recriminations, and inability to engage with the facts and ambiguities that the REal World presents to us.
6. Gandalf and ALM speak most humanely and wisely of the dangers of too literal readings.

Syncretism may be the savior of us all. Those who are insecure about their relationship with the almighty may be fearful of other faith practices. The rest of us don't mind sharing, even if it puts a bit of a dent in our cultural imperialism.

Professor Borg, an On-Faith panelist, has published a book comparing many of the sayings of Jesus to those of Buddha. Jesus and Buddha: The Parallel Sayings (2002),

http://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Buddha-Parallel-Marcus-Borg/dp/1569753180/ref=sr_1_1/104-9896956-2574367?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1176392091&sr=1-1 .

An excerpt from the Introduction of the book:

"Most striking of all the parallels between Jesus and Buddha are those dealing with love..."

I would remind those who disagree with Dr. Tutu on the basis that he is not following the literal word of God in scripture (the Gospel of John was quoted above in rebuttal of Tutu's teaching in an above posting) that there is more than one way of understanding scripture. As an Anglican, Tutu uses the three-legged stool of Scripture, tradition, and REASON to understand what God wants from us and how to "approach him more nearly."

We are allowed to let the study of the history and origin of Scripture inform our understanding of the writings in both the Old and New Testament.

It would certainly be nice if people keep the vitriol out of this post and just try to understand what the archbishop is saying. It takes an open mind to see and accept the good things in faiths other than your own and say out loud what he has said in this post. Narrow-mindedness and fanaticism has lead the world to its present state, with radicalism (especially in religion) the prevalent theme everywhere around us.

Very well said, Sir! This is one of the best posts I have read on "On Faith". It does make all the squabbling over different religions and faiths seem really stupid! Just think how the world would look if even half the people start thinking this way!

I really love the Bishop and want to buy into his theology. As a Christian leader, the Bishop should know that it is Jesus himself who defines his mission and Jesus himself who claims to be the only way to God. (Jesus says in John 6:14: "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.") This is just one example out of many. So, nobody is trying to put God in a small box since God himself defined his box through Jesus. If you are a Christian, then believe what Jesus said, not the post-modernistic babble from Mr. Tutu. Today it is popular to ignore the words in the scriptures and put forth a mixed up soup that lacks any meat and ends up standing for nothing. In the end, this promotes secularism because there is no substance, heritage, or truth to attract those seeking answers. This works as long as most people do not read their Bibles and that is surely the case these days and why men like Tutu are so successful. Truth is that Mr. Tutu is more engaged in Syncretism than in Christianity. Indeed, today the failure to be syncretistic may appear old-fashioned, narrow, and epistemologically straitjacketed. (quoted from the book by D.A. Carson on the emerging church) One who prefers to be true to the scriptures risks being unpopular. I will defend the right of Mr. Tutu to believe what he wants to believe to my death. In all sincerity, I have to tell you that Mr. Tutu is playing to the crowd and is unfortunately misrepresenting Christianity and he does it from a position of authority.

I disagree. Jesus said that the only way to the Father is through the Son. Tutu is a Bishop and apparently disagrees with this teaching. I have no problem respecting other's faiths but he is in a position of leadership and should reread his bible. There are many religions and it is nice to believe that there are many ways to GOD but for a Christian there is one way to the Lord and that is through Jesus Christ.

Shawn: I now remove the metaphorical Pox.

Viejeta:
Thanks for your thought.
Here is my reasoning.

If I am a Jew
and Fred is a Christian

I do not think it is appropriate to have the
cultural/literary basis of our first conversation be
HIS scripture that he quotes at length
which by so doing
he assumes I either Do or Should accept
as a Common and Dominant mode of discourse.

I think it is also impolite for him to say
"My God (which is derrent than yours - Christ in this case)
thinks it is fine for people like You to learn about him."

All this involves a majoritarian power assumption and performative act that I find insensitive and offensive.

If I ASK Fred what he believes, then it is perfectly appropriate,
though I would hope Fred would be self conscious if he presented HIS GOD as the RIGHT GOD

When I was in high school, I attended a Lutheran youth gathering in St. Louis, and hearing Desmond Tutu speak was the one thing I took away from it. His is the voice of reason in the shouting match this site, and all other discussion on these matters, often becomes. I only with I could read his responses more often.

"Anything that can assist me in praying better, that helps me to be still and centered, recollected, I am happy to employ."

Why can't good ol'e Cal think this way? Is it because we all are so out of touch spiritually that we get into spats on here? I think a little Eastern philosophy could go along way with all of us, believers, and non-believers.

Henry,

I felt the pat on the head...

At least you didn't curse me with a pox :-)

Actually I thought Shawn was being pleasant and restrained. As long as someone is polite about it, we should not be offended that they believe differently than we do.

Shawn My Dear

The eloquent and magnificent Archbishop puts me in a charitable mood,

so I will be milder than I'd like
and say

how can you ruin the ecumenical and inclusive spirituality of Mr. Tutu's spirit

by quoting Christian verse and invoking the Christ myth.

You condescendingly say that your Christian God allows those of other faiths to seek HIM (I worship a her/it).

I am sorry that you polluted what was a lovely post and series of related comments.

Mr Tutu: my praise for your elevated spirit.

What generous thoughts and writing.

I agree, only God has a corner on the "God Market." He chooses how he will reveal himself. The Christian Bible has several references to the fact that God has given information about himself so that anyone could seek him...

John says that God gave light to everyone that enters the world, "That was the true Light which gives light to every man coming into the world." (John 1:9)

Paul says in Romans that the physical creation gives evidence for God, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead,..." (Romans 1:20)

Paul also told the Athenians that God was not far from each man, "And He has made from one blood every nation of men ... so that they should seek the Lord, in the hope that they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us;..."(Acts 17:26)

We do have a partial knowledge of God through creation and conscious. Enough for anyone to begin to ask deep questions about the meaning of life. And to complete his revelation, Christians believe that God chose to use his son to show us love, radical teaching, and radical living. Jesus finished his work and revelation by showing the greatest love a friend can have, to die for people, rise again, and offer forgiveness to all who would believe.

"God is not a Christian, otherwise we would have to say that there was no knowledge of or relationship with God before the Christian era, and that patently is absurd. God is not the exclusive preserve of these three monotheistic faiths."

Your Grace, thank you for a wonderful post. In the early days of this forum I told someone that I did not see the different religions as competitors. When you shine light through a prism, it becomes a rainbow; each religion is a different color. Is blue better than green? No, it is only DIFFERENT. (sure wish we could use italics!) I don't think God has a favorite color. :-)

Mavaddat, I second that!

Thanks Mr. Mark, I came here immediately after reading your post.

And especially...Thank you Archbishop Tutu, I am very moved.

Mr. Mark,

Thank you for drawing our attention to this post. It is a wonderful and insightful look at the relationship between humanity and truth in general.

If the question was flipped the other way would those who use "eastern spiritual practices" embrace a "simple prayer life" of the christian, muslim and jew to the great "I Am"?

Mr. Mark,

Speaking for myself, I saw no need to comment on Tutu's post because I think his excellent words speak for themselves. On the other hand, Thomas' contempt for other religions is unbearably intense. I feel the same way about him as I do about the zealots who want public schools to push Christianity on my children.

Dr. Tutu,

You have shown a beautiful understanding of the One God in this post. As if God cares whether the one who wishes to come to Him is using a path proscribed by the Abrahamic traditions, or is following an Eastern path.

While I was drawn unmistakably to Christ and Christianity three years ago by the Holy Spirit from my previous Eastern path, my husband still continues to follow it with devotion. I see no compelling need to nudge him to follow Christ, and he respects my devotion to Jesus and Christianity.

BTW I still meditate regularly, with a mantra that incorporates the Name of Jesus Christ, which I received early on while in meditation.

Mr. Mark:
Good question. Seems there would be more people to respond to a well thought out post rather than a very close-minded one. Yet, here we are, and there they are. Seems the masses have spoken, and they only speak bull. Reminds me of a quote I heard one time, I can't think of who said it, but it fits.

A person is smart, people are morons.

My only reason for this post is that I find it shameful that a column written by a Nobel Prize winner has drawn only 4 comments while a sister column by a RW nut like Cal Thomas has (at the point in time of this comment) drawn over 20 responses.

Why is that?

Very well put! The most sensible post I have seen in this site in a while!

Dear Archbishop

Thank God for you !

It's wonderful to have someone like yourself who as an international spokesman for commonsense and compassion speaks in such a trenchant, firm style, putting fools in their place.

I am gonna agree with you Mr. Tutu, very well put.

Well said, Archbishop!