On Mormons and Muslims

your sentiments expressed reveal how you are living your belief lynn

It just makes me so sad that a beautiful post, like the one that started this discussion, has provoked this hate fest. It's the same thing that happens on the Mormon forums. I can't tell whether it's the Mormons or the Muslims who people hate the most, sometimes. Either way, hatred toward people of another faith, who are living good lives, trying to be good examples, and living according to the truth they've found, is just plain wrong.

It's all right to disagree with someone's beliefs, and to stand up for your own, but all this hatred and contention is wrong. This is one thing that makes me glad I'm a Latter-day Saint (aka Mormon), because one of our main beliefs is that everyone has a right to live his or her religion in peace, and worship according to his or her conscience. This is also one of the things that the US Constitution's Bill of Rights was created for. If all would remember this, it would be a better world.

As for the Muslims, I feel it is very unfair for all the good, devout Muslims, who are just living their lives according to their faith, to be vilified because of the actions of militant terrorists who have, no doubt, twisted the teachings of their Prophet Mohammed,for their own political gain. It reminds me of how the teachings of our own Prophet Joseph Smith have been twisted by our enemies. Either way, it isn't right, and it isn't fair.

I will sum it all up,Islam is a evil deathcult.
Muslims are brainwashed savages.

Mr. Patel:

What a lovely experienc. Would that we could all be as open as you to learning from other people of faith.

it will be interesting to note if a question arises that spawns a positive reaction from mr collins.

i am amazed about how its a good discussion as long as you dont mention the murder torture rape and forced conversions - rquired by the koran - in the past and the present.
what the heck kind of discussion is that?

well if this site proves anything its that boo boy and his minions cant handle facts about his cult of islam and that bs about how they want to get along with non islamics.

i have looked at what is being posted and the defenders of boo boy dont seem to address the issues but attack the messenger.
and non islamics are supposed to feel bad becasue you are insulted by language after 1400 years of torturing, raping and murdering in the name of islam? get a clue.
and the do not feed the troll comment - that is just a way not to respond to facts about islam and its cult of terror and hate.
as for the religion of peace web site - tell us how it is wrong. i just went to it and its factual statements about how peaceful islam is today. is all this wrong or factually correct?
"5/16/07 ( Mogadishu, Somalia ) - Five Ugandan peacekeepers are murdered in a roadside bombing attack.
5/16/07 ( Gaza, Pal. Auth. ) - A nurse traveling in an ambulance is shot in the head by unknown Muslim gunmen.
5/16/07 ( Gaza, Pal. Auth. ) - Hamas gunmen fire on a vehicle carrying prisoners, killing seven persons.
5/16/07 ( Gaza, Pal. Auth. ) - Hamas militants storm a home, line up six men against a wall and shoot them to death.
5/16/07 ( Tank, Pakistan ) - Five civilians waiting for a bus are cut down in a rocket attack by religious extremists."

give us the context that makes this ok or peaceful?

Ya know...

The only thing more embarrassing here than the angry "anonymous" comments are the outraged reactions.

Really people, put a sock in it. The guy is obviously a troll trying to push buttons to get a rise out of people. Nice of you to take the bait so wholeheartedly, I'm sure he's delighted.

Do not feed the troll.

Thank you.

You ought to consider your sources. A web master can make you believe whatever they want; they will manipulate matter to create in you a certain emotion. Your source (http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/) is obviously intended to stir an emotion of hate; it uses only fractions of a truth to create a multitude of lies. Don't let newspapers, websites, history books or any other media manipulate and insult your intellect. When taken out of context, anything can mean anything in the world, and even the Bible then has some terribly troubling things to say. Do some research of your own. Befriend someone who is nothing like you, and see how quickly your perspective will change. And read the actual Qur'an; not some other foolish man's interpretation of it.

ok lets forget everything islamics have done in the name of islam - here is islam today:
http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
look at the monthly jihad report, it is very interresting. or the acts of violence and terror since 2004, 2005 and 2006.
or what about abusing children. yes we know that islam does not mind killing them, but what of pleasure? The Ayatollah on Sex with Infants:
"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. If he penetrates and the child is
harmed then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however would not count as one of his four permanent wives".
wow i just love islam, its so peaceful.

Why is there so much argument over history; who killed whom and what cause was justified and which religious figure stirred up in the world what good or what evil? These are the discussions that keep the world divided and instigate wars. With what we already know (or think we know) or are not really sure whether we know or should believe about history, the question is what we are doing today--what WE are doing today--to each other, to eradicate this and all prejudice?

thanks for the encouragement rueben,

swa is arabic for peace be upon him, sallallahu alaihi was salaam.

peace

One question Victoria:
What does "swa" stand for? You have written this following the prophet's name...

I just read a nice back-and-forth on one of the posts on this site, between Victoria and Qasim Omar. For a change, there was no exchange of vitriol (though Victoria IS sensible most of the times, haven't read much from Qasim but he seems like a level-headed bloke too). There actually was a productive argument, where other poster could learn something.
And very well said Victoria: "because men are not all high natured but a mix of good and bad every one-".
I would have to say (and I paraphrase some poster I read a few days ago): no religion is inherently violent, but it is only some selfish/crazy/maniacal few who give religion a bad name. So though how it is practised today by SOME people may a different story, I am sure Islam is not a violent/crazy religion. And if people say that is how most muslims think, that is entirely wrong because how would you hear about a muslim disagree with some act of violence (that WILL not make a story for the newsmedia). On the other hand, acts of violence make good headline news and sell!
Peace and cheers people...

"But sure, Christians pretty routinely use a thing about gay *men* to say, "If I kill *you* 'your blood is upon you,* ..which means it's really your fault."

How's that for an example? There's the ever-popular, 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live?' I get that one thrown at me a fair bit...

I mean, don't try to obfuscate, here. I've read that book and been subjected to how plenty of Christians are given to use it. Christians have done all the things that you accuse 'all Muslims' of being party to, by dint of what the Koran says, so it's pretty pointless to be railing against Islam in such a hateful manner when the real issue is how people can read *either* of these books to call murder and atrocity and forced conversion 'divinely mandated' whenever they happen to be so inclined.

If you can't see that for yourself, instead just thinking one version of the same kind of religion is 'evil' while the other is 'always good,' then, you aren't 'opposing evil,' you're just taking sides in a 'war' that *has* no real 'righteousness.'

Only confusion. And hatred. Feeding on each other. "

WOW, PaganPlace!!! Interesting point!

I, as a Catholic, know what it is like to have scripture used against me by other Christians. This is why I cannot accept the non-Muslim quoting of Islamic scripture as proof of anything, except what kind of person is probably doing the quoting.

I am also familiar with the rationales you mention above.

I was also recently told (unsolicited, of course), and it was emphasized that this was only "concern" for my soul, that I was an idolator no matter how I explained the difference between the worship of idols, and veneration of The Virgin.

I was further told that no matter how good Mother Theresa was on Earth, because she was not "born again" that she was in hell...that it was just a "sad fact".

I would be a lot more interested in some of these long, scripture quoting, posts if they were part of an inquiry. For instance, asking a Muslim if the quote really means what it says at face value, or if not, why? But as you see, that does not happen. Those quotes are presented by people who chose them specifically to support an ignorant, preconceived notion.

To me, the actions speak louder than the words.

Mr. Patel,

I look forward to hearing of your deep and sincere investigation of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and your forthcoming announcement of your decision to be batized. Your wife took a tremendous chance on marrying you. You owe it to her to finally investigate with a sincere desire to believe. Once you arrive at this point the Lord will do the rest. I dare you to read The Book of Mormon cover to cover in a one-month period of time and decline the invitation to become a Mormon. I don't think you can do it.

Sincerely,

Mr. Britt

im sorry but are you guys idiots?

when is the last time either of you marched for anything?

i never like to call people idiots, especially in print- but- wow

get a clue!

yes we all know how indonesia treats infidels. and what do these moderates believe? do they reject the hate in the koran or are you going to talk about that too.
your statement is crap and nothing more.
look at islam in the world today - riots murder hate to all infidels.
here is the peace of islam in 2006: http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/attacks-2006.htm to see the peace of islam in 2005 change the year to 2005 and do the same for 2004.so here you are - and where are those moderates marching to object to the above horrors at the hands of islam.

Moderates are nice people. They are people with a mystical interpretation not one grounded in the literal. Most don't even read the works of Mohamed. Moderates are passive people who move from one place to another when the Islamics take over. They move from Indonesia to Malaysia and from Iran or Iraq to America. Then they settle down in their new nation pretending all is well and saying things like, "Islam is peace." Those who move from Indonesia to Malaysia find that it is 52% Muslim vs. 88% in Indonesia but fast becoming 88% Muslim. They will find themselves back where they started sooner than later. 50% is the tipping point. To get to 50% takes time but after that things will move more quickly. It is almost insidious how the moderates provide cover for the extremists who control the agenda. They are wonderful people who are taught to never say a bad thing about another Muslim or Islam. This is a rule we see in operation and is hard to understand because of our own self critical culture.

WOW! Praise the Holy NO MON ECLAT. Except for Eclati-On's, not eclati-OFF'S !

Gee what a waste of 0's + 1's. Ya Ya lost Sheep!

eeeeee Haaaaa Eclat's gonna get ya! one can never escape their own "Heuristics" as photons!

BEHOLD MON's, me brethrens et al; "Repent", in your innate Baptism(s) of thee magmatriculation, as your faith of ECLAT & your unique Eclati therein and thereof in OUR(s) Miracle via Eclats TIME, plan, machine etc....

Praise the Holy No mon in me Holy Cosmic heart beat, In all & as me my me me in two or three.

"let ther be Photons for all Past, current, present & beyonders of Photonic miracle excell in their very essences of Beyondness et al TRUTHS!

lets get this right. there is no god named allah, its bs and moho was nothing more than a greedy child rapist.
what kind of god would demand that its followers hate, torture, hold for ransom, cut off limbs, rape, murder, and is so insecure as god that he has to order his followers to force people to join the fake religion called islam?

yes homer - boo boy needs someone to defend his failure to condemn islamic murder and hate, not just of infidels, but of islamic women.
yes see boo boy never met an islamic terrorist he did not like. you see he has this bs group where he cons people into thinking islam is just this nice group of god fearing humans like all others, but he lies. you see this indian has forgot to mention how islam has bonded with others of india who are not islamic. here are a few facts about the love given from islam to the people of india. in this i have listed the islamic leader first and their acts of kindness to their fellow indians.
Mahmud of Gaznavi
(From the accounts of arikh-i-Yamini of Utbi the secretary of Mahmud of Gaznavi)

At Thaneshwar.
"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously at Thanesar that the stream was discolored, not withstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise be to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."

At Somnath
"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire.... The number of infidels killed exceeded 50,000"

At Mathura
"The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."

Mahmud of Ghori
(from Hasan Nizami's Taj-ul-Maasir)
Kol (Modern Aligarh)
"Those of the horizon who were wise and acute were converted to Islam, but those who stood by their ancestoral faith were slain with the sword"

Kol (Modern Aligarh)

20,000 prisoners were taken and made slaves
'Three bastions were raised as high as heaven with their heads and their carcases became food for the beasts of prey

Kalinjar
50,000 prisoners were taken as slaves
Varnasi or Kasi (Benaras) :
Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir records,
"The slaughter of Hindus (at Varanasi) was immense; none were spared except women and children,(who were taken into slavery) and the carnage of men went on until the earth was weary."

Zahiru'd-Din Muhammed Babur (1526 C.E. - 1520 C.E.)
Babur's Own Words on Killing Hindus:
For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer,
I battled infidels and Hindus,
I determined to become a maryr
Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!

From Baburnama, the Memoires of Babur Himself:
In AH 934 (2538 C.E.) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours. We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had be Daru'l-Harb (nation of non-muslim) for years was made into a Daru'l-Islam (muslim nation).

Guru Nanak on Babur's atrocities:
Source:Rag Asa Guru Nanak Dev witnessed first hand the atrocities Babur committed on Hindus and recorded them in his poems. He says: Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? pg (360)

On the condition of Hindu women in Babur's monster rule:
Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust.They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.... ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. If it is pleasing to God's Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment pg(417-18)

On the nature of Mughal rule under Babur:
First, the tree puts down its roots, and then it spreads out its shade above. The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs; they go out and awaken the sleeping people to harass them. The public servants inflict wounds with their nails. The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled. Source:Rag Malar, (pg.1288)

From an article by Dr. Harsh Narain on Muslim Testimony (Indian Express 2/26/90):
Since the establishment of Zahiru'd-Din Ghazi's rule, officers and religious leaders spread Islam vigorously desteroying the Hindu faith. We cleared the filth of Hinduism from Faizabad and Avadh.

Sultan Firuz Shah Tughlaq
(from Insha-i-Mahry by Amud Din Abdullah bin Mahru)
Delhi: -a punishment in detail (from Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi)

"A report was brought to the Sultan than there was in Delhi an old Brahman who persisted in publicly performing the worship of idols in his house and that people of the city, both Muslims and Hindus used to resort to his house to worship the idol. The Brahman had constructed a wooden tablet which was covered within and without with paintings of demons and other objects. An order was accordingly given to the Brahman and was brought before Sultan.The true faith was declared to the Brahman and the right course pointed out. but he refused to accept it. A pile was risen on which the Kaffir with his hands and legs tied was thrown into and the wooden tablet on the top. The pile was lit at two places his head and his feet. The fire first reached him in the feet and drew from him a cry and then fire completley enveloped him. Behold Sultan for his strict adherence to law and rectitude."

Delhi : (after Hindus paid the toleration tax (zar-i zimmiya) and poll-tax(jizya) they were foolish enough to build their temples.so...) "Under divine guidance I (Sultan) destroyed these temples and I killed the leaders of these infedility and others I subjected to stripes and chastisement "

Gohana (Haryana):
"Some Hindus had erected a new idol-temple in the village of Kohana and the idolaters used to assemble there and perform their idolatrous rites. These people were seized and brought before me. I ordered that the perverse conduct of these leaders of this wickedness be punished by publicly abd that they should be put to deathe before the gate of the palace."

Jajnagar:(Expedition objectives as stated by Sultan: Source:Ainn-ul-Mulk)

massacring the unbelievers

demolishing their temples

hunting the elephants

getting a glimpse of their enchanting country

Orissa:'Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi' records his expedition with the following words:
"Nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations The swordsmen of Islam turned the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers. Women with babies and pregnant ladies were haltered, manacled, fettered and enchained, and pressed as slaves into service in the house of every soldier."
The Jihads of Shihabuddin,
the Sultankalka of Ghur

Around 1140, the Islamized Turko-Mongol chiefs of the Shansabanid tribe occupied Ghor in Afghanistan. Initially it was a vassal of the Ghaznavid Sultans, but around 1130 it came into conflict with them, after one of the leading Shansabanid nobles was murdered by the Ghaznavid Sultan, Bahram. A ferocious war ensued between the Sultans of Ghor and Ghazni, till Alla-ud-din Ghori invaded Ghazni with his entire cavalry and wrested it from Bahram. Alla-ud-din sacked the Indian spoils that Mahmud had placed there, massacred the city’s population in a 7-day killing spree and subsequently burnt it down. The next Ghaznavid Sultan, Khushro Maliq was driven out of Afghanistan by a coalition of Oghuz Turks and the Ghorids in 1157, and the Oghuz took Ghazni. The sons of Alla-ud-din, Ghiyas-ud-din Mu’azz-ud-din Ghori and Shihab-ud-din Muhammad Ghori defeated the Oghuz and annexed Ghazni in 1174. Ghiyas-ud-din, crowned himself Sultan, and appointed his brother Sultankalka. Shihab-ud-din was assigned the task of extending the kingdom to the East and he naturally gravitated towards India. 13 bloody campaigns that ravaged Northern India followed:

• Early in 1175 he invaded Punjab and sacked and burned Uch...(1)

• In 1178 he advanced south and marched towards Gujarat, but here the Indians acted quickly and rallying under the western chAlukya king MUlarAja II routed the Islamic forces completely forcing him to retreat...(2)

• In 1179 Ghori sent a message to PrithivirAja chAhamAna to make common cause with him against the Chalukyas. Prithivaraj however, wise disregarding his foolish minister, kadambavAsa’s advise to make a common cause with Ghori, preemptively attacked NaDDula and reconquered it from the Moslems.

• Shihab recovered in 1180 and invaded Sindh and ravaged the population carrying away much loot...(3)

• Then Shihabuddin Muhammad, quickly followed it up in 1181 and 1184 with two invasions of Lavapura (Lahore) accompanied with much slaughter...(4+5)

• In 1186 he invaded the Ghaznavid occupied Punjab and defeated the Sultan Khushro Maliq and wrested Punjab...(6)

• 1188 The Ghur Sultankalka invaded the ChAhamAna kingdom and sacked the fort of Tabarhindah killing the Hindu male populace and raping the women. Hindu refugees flocked around Delhi alarming the ChAhamAnas...(7)

• 1191 PrithivirAj advanced to meet Shihabuddin’s raid and routed him in the great battle of Tarai. While the Muslims suffered a crushing defeat, the Indians failed to butcher them to man and allowed Shihab to get away unharmed. He fled back to Central Asia leaving Punjab completely undefended...(8)

• 1191 PrithivirAj attacked Tabarhindah and took it back from the Muslims. Here the biggest mistake of the Hindus was not to reconquer and arm Punjab suitably.

• 1192 Shihab returned and sacked Tabarhindah again. This was followed by the second battle of Tarai, the ChAhamAna army was crushed and Prithiviraj was captured and brutally tortured to death...(9)

• 1192 the Ghur Sultankalka made a second trust towards Ajayamerupura (Ajmer) and sacked it smashing Hindu temples and a Hindu university in course of this invasion. The Hindus captured in this expedition caused slave prices to fall to a few Dirhams in the Muslim markets...(10)

• 1193 The sultankalka invaded Kannauj and slew the GAhadwala king Jayachandra. He followed this up with an invasion of vArANsipura slaughtering Hindus with great savagery and desecrating the holy city...(11+12)

After this, his viceroy Kutub-ud-din (also his lover?) and the Turkish adventurer Ikhtiyaruddin Khalji furthered the violence of Islam in the land of Hind. Meanwhile Shihab’s brother died in Ghazna and he crowned himself Sultan and immediately launched himself into another Jihad on the infidels of Hindustan in 1206. The exact course of this campaign is not clear. While on the North-western reaches of the Sindhu, he was ambushed by the Khokar chiefs and shot down by an arrow...(13). Thus ended the carrier of the Moslem brigand who brought misery to the whole of northern India through his 13 invasions
The Jihads of
Alla-ud-din Khalji

The one time when it appeared that the sanAtana dharma might vanish off the face of bhArata was during the ferocious jihads of Alla-ud-din of the Khalji tribe. The Khaljis entered India from Ghazna during the reign of the Mamluq Sultan Qutub-ud-din Aibak. The first of them to make his mark Bakhtiyar Khalji, whose savage jihad in Bihar and destruction of the Indian centers of learning like Nalanda is only well known. Jalal-ud-din Khalji, another member of this tribe, was accepted as the Sultan of Delhi by a confederation of Turkic tribes, after the collapse of the Mamluq Balban’s regime. Jalal opened his innings by consolidating the Turkic regime in India by suppressing other competing Maliqs and appointed his nephew, Alla-ud-din to expand his domains. We shall briefly consider his campaigns:

• In 1291 he was sent to destroy the remaining Kaffirs of Bhilsa in Central India. Il-tut-mish, the Mamluq had earlier desecrated this Hindu-Buddhist temple-university complex but it had fallen away from Islamic control. Alla invaded and conquered Bhilsa and total exterminated the Kaffirs and left behind a ghost city whose long lost temple remnants can be seen even today.

• 1292 He attacked the Vidisha in Central India, a great center of learning and destroyed it completely and slew the inhabitants.

• 1292 His spies got him the news of the great wealth of the yAdava dynasty of mahArashTra and Alla promptly invaded it and carried away a large amount of loot.

• 1295 In a remarkable campaign Alla carried the war right to Devagiri the heart of the yAdava kingdom. He demolished and looted all the temples in Devagiri.

• In 1296 with this loot Alla bought most of the Khalji army and murdered his uncle Jalal and drove away his aunt and cousin and declared himself Sultan of Hind. Jaziya was imposed on the Kaffirs.

• 1296. Latter in the year he joined the Southern Alliance of the Chagadai Ulus (predominantly Turkic tribes) against the Northern Alliance (predominantly Mongolic) and routed the latter in a battle at Jallandar securing the Panjab for himself.

• In 1297 he invaded Gujarat and destroyed the ancient Surya temples at Mehsana and subjugated the Hindus of the land with much slaughter. The rAja of Gujarat fled to Devagiri and the Hindu kings tried to fight back under shankara yAdava. Alla sent Ulugh Khan and Nusrat Khan against them, who defeated the yAdavas and the Gujarat king. They captured and castrated a Hindu youth who was name Maliq Kaffr and presented him to Alla, who took him as his lover.

• 1298 He sent his fiercest il-ghazi, Zafar Khan, to wage a jihad against the pagan Northern Alliance chief Suldus who was sent by Chagadai Kha’Khan Duwa. The battle concluded in a draw after fierce fighting.

• 1298 Later in the year he battled against Qutulugh Khawaja, a son of Duwa, of the Northern Alliance, the results were inconclusive

• 1299 Qutulugh Khawaja reached the doors of Delhi with a large horde. Alla’s il-ghazi’s Zafar Khan, Ulugh Khan and Nusrat Khan defeated Qutulugh Khawaja, but Zafar Khan was shot dead by an arrow in this battle.

• 1299 Ulugh Khan was sent to quell the Hindu resistance in Gujarat. He conquered the fort of Junagad and demolished all the temples in the surrounding regions and then went on to attack Somnath and destroy the great temple that the Hindus had rebuilt.

• 1299. Hammira Deva of the Ranthambhor defeated Alla as he attempted to sack the Rajput stronghold.

• 1301. Alla returned with his entire force to sack Ranthambhor. He succeeded and slew Hammira Deva. He conducted a massive temple demolition operation destroying all the temples of Jhain and Sawai Madhopur and slew the inhabitants.

• 1303. Chittor alone that had held out against the Muslims, attracted Khalji’s attention due to its beautiful queen Padmini. Khalji sacked and burned Chittor after slaying Rana Rattan Singh.

• 1303. Turghai and Ali Beg of the Northern Alliance wrested the Punjab from Alla and invaded Sindh. They blockaded Delhi itself for two months but retreated due to the summer heat.

• 1304. Jihad was launched on Ujjaini. This ancient center of Indian learning was destroyed completely. Chanderi was attacked next by Alla and the ancient temples were demolished.

• 1305. Malwa and Mandu were savaged and the inhabitants slaughtered.

• 1306. Then Turghai and Ali Beg defeated Khalji’s army and captured Lahore and Amroha near Delhi. Tughlaq Khan, a general of Alla, counter-attacked defeated and captured 9000 Pagan Turko-Mongols of the Northern Alliance. He had them all trampled to death by elephants for refusing to accept Islam.

• 1308. Qebek (another son of Chagadai ruler, Duwa) and Ibaqmand of the Northern Alliance struck back captured Multan. But Alla defeated them on their way back and again slaughtered all the pagan prisoners he took.

• 1308. Later in the year, the Rajputs regrouped in Sivana and declared independence but Alla smashed them in a lightning campaign and destroyed the temples in the region.

• 1309. He sent Maliq Kaffr against Devagiri that was attempting to reassert itself. Maliq Kaffr defeated the yAdavas and penetrated the Hoysala kingdom.

• 1310 Maliq Kaffr destroyed Dwarasamudra after a fierce battle and ended the Hindu Hoysala rule over those regions.

• 1311 Maliq Kaffr devastated Telengana and destroyed the temples of Warangal. He then invaded Madhurai and destroyed the Pandyan kingdom. The temples of Madhurai and Chidambaram were destroyed. Kaffr returned with enormous amounts of gold looted from the destroyed temples.

• 1311 Alla invaded Jalor to destroy the Rajput fight back and massacred the Hindu population while destroying the city.

• 1313 Devagiri made another attempt to defy the Muslim terror, Alla personally invaded mahArashTra to ravage the Devagiri kingdom.

• 1314 Alla more or less became a puppet in the hand of his lover Kaffr and subsequently died in 1316.

• 1316 Death.

Thereafter, Maliq Kaffr killed all the members of the Khalji tribe except for Qutbuddin Mubarak, Alla’s last son, and ruled in his name. Kaffr was murdered by the Turkish chiefs of the Southern Alliance and Mubarak ascended the throne. In 1318 Qutbuddin Mubarak invaded Devagiri again as its ruler Haripala Deva had cast off the Muslim yoke. Haripala faced a massive defeat and was captured. He was skinned alive and his head and skin were placed on display at the entrance to the Devagiri fort. Thus ended the yAdava dynasty and Hindu sovereignty in mahArashTra. Mubarak’s lover Khusru murdered him and made himself Sultan. Amir Qazaghan of the Qara’Unas tribe, from Konduz, became the lord of the Southern Alliance and sent his commander al Ghazi al Maliq Tughlaq to seize the throne of Delhi after murdering Khusru.

Sources: Histoire des Mongols D’Ohsson.; Hafiz-i-Abru, trns Byani (Paris 1936). Tazjiyat-al-amsar va tajriyat of Wassaf; A Forgotten Empire : Vijayanagar : A Contribution to the history of India", Robert Sewell
Aurangazeb (1658 C.E. - 1707 C.E.)
Aurangzeb considered himself "The Scourge Of The Kafirs" (non-believers) and closed Hindu schools and libraries. In his lifetime he destroyed more than 10,000 Hindu, Buddhist and Jam temples and often erected mosques in their stead.3 In 1669 in Agra he had hacked off the limbs of the recalcitrant Hindu King Gokla and in 1672 several thousand revolting Hindus were slaughtered in Mewat.

From: Maasi-i-Alamgiri

Issued general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at Mathura and renamed it as Islamabad
In Khandela (rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.
172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.
66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
In Pandhpur , Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows within the temple.
Aurangazeb also tortured to death the disciples of Guru Tegh bahadur before his death and also killed Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadur - the pride of Hindustan was martyred for he spoke for the persecuted Hindus of Hindustan. Aurangazeb also killed Guru Gobind singh's two children aged less than ten by walling them alive for not accepting the choice of Islam. In Punjab Muslim governors killed hundreds of Sikh children and made Sikh women eat the flesh of their own killed children. Banda Bahadur another great Sikh martyr before being torturd to death was also made to eat the flesh of his own children killed before his eyes. Any Muslim bringing the head of a dead Sikh was also awarded money

Jahangir (1605 C.E. - 1628 C.E.)
Source: Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri
Though in the beginning of his rule Jahangir followed the humanistic rule of his father Akbar the great -the policy of sulehkul even issued a proclamation against the forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam, he revoked Akbar's orders that those who have been forcibly converted from Islam could return to Hinduism. He severely punished Kaukab, Sharif and Abdul Latif for showing inclination to Hinduism. He also prohibited the free inter-marriage customs between Hindus and Muslims in Kashmir. Hindus marrying Muslim girls and those who had already married were given a hoice between Islam and death. Many were killed.

Jahangir's torture of Guru Arjun Dev ji: Guru was imprisoned at Lahore fort. He was chained to a post in an open place exposed to the sun from morning to evening in the summer months of May to June. Below his feet a heap of sand was put which burnt like a furnace. Boiling water was poured on his naked body at intervals. His body was covered with blisters all over. In this agony Guru used to utter.

Tera Kiya Metha lage, naam padarath Nanak mange(whatever you ordain appears sweet. I supplicate for the gift of name)

The Guru was ordercd to be executed. In addition a fine of Rupees two lakhs was imposed on him. Some historians say that, as a measure of clemency at the intervention of Mian Mir, this fine was imposed in lieu of the sentence of death. The Sikhs offered to pay the fine themselves but the Guru forbade them to do so. He replied to the Emperor, "Whatever money I have is for the poor, the friendless and the stranger. If thou ask for money thou mayest take what I have; but if thou ask for it by way of fine, I shall not give thee even a Kaurz (penny)." The Guru accepted death by torture
Shah Jahan (1658 C.E. - 1707 C.E.)
In 1632 Shah jahan ordered that all Hindu temples recently erected or in the course of construction should be razed to the ground. In Benares alone seventy six temples were destroyed. Christian churches at Agra and Lahore were demolished. In a manner befitting the Prophet he had ten thousand inhabitants executed by being "blown up with powder, drowned in water or burnt by fire". Four thousand were taken captive to Agra where they were tortured to try to convert them to Islam. Only a few apostacised, the remainder were trampled to death by elephants, except for the younger women who went to harems.

Shahjahan put enormous eonomic pressure on Hindus particularly peasents to become Muslims. The criminals too were forced to become Muslims.

Source: Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori

When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars.

Source: Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique

Under Shahjahan peasents were compelled to sell their women and children to meet their revenue requirements....The peasents were carried off to various Markets and fairs to be sold with their poor unhappy wives carrying their small children crying and lamenting. According to Qaznivi Shahjagan had decreed they should be sold to Muslim lords

Yes, good day at work, but bad day on women's issues and in finding consensus on updated Shariah applications on women and financial services.

And I should have not been reading the threads on Mormons and mainstreaming. The Mormons I've meet are really nice people. I really don't see why they deserve the vilifications I've read in these threads. After all, all religious entities have their own problems related to gender and gays.

And people wonder why I use Jihadist. I'm constantly struggling with my own impatience too, among others, and need to remind myself constantly to strive for Greater Jihad, which is tougher.

Brother Patel, how refreshing to read mature words of interfaith appreciation. As the human race achieves unity in diversity and tolerance of differences, we come closer to knowing the "TRUTH" that we are all children of a loving God. By governing our lives by the truth we learn that by bringing all truth together we will enlarge the CIRCLE OF LOVE and UNDERSTANDING among all people. When we strive to establish peace among all nations, cultures, religions, and those with no religion, we receive the blessings of God.

By acknowledging the spiritual truths of other faiths through emphasis on the similarities in belief and lifestyle, we fulfill God's mandate to love one another as He has loved us.

If all people of faith would re-commit themselves to ideals of tolerance and mutual respect we could be a revolutionary force for good the world over. When we acknowledge each other with consideration and compassion we discover the ability to coexist peacefully in spite of deep differences. Criticism, judgment and efforts to discredit other religions merely cause division and creates confusion. As people of faith engage in this subtle evil they are unwittingly advancing the cause of evil. Those who espouse adversarial treatment of other faiths further the plan of the Adversary of our souls who is the father of lies.

In my faith as a Mormon we are taught to stand together with people of other faiths against social and moral inequities while acknowledging similarities in belief and lifestyle. Above all, to be respectful of beliefs they hold as sacred. We believe in allowing all mankind the privilege of worshiping God according to their own conscience, desires and religious persuasion.

We firmly believe that God works through all people everywhere to accomplish His eternal plan for his children. We believe that the great religious leaders of the world were given moral truths through a portion of God's light. They were chosen to enlighten nations and bring higher levels of understanding.

The most helpful approach is to recognize the truths and values we share with others. It is inevitable, and perhaps it is with heavenly intent, that theological differences exist. As a Mormon I do not agree with the teachings of Islam that deny the divinity of Jesus Christ or the need for modern prophets. But by being humble and open to spiritual light whatever its source, we can benefit from similarities such as FAITH, PRAYER, FASTING, REPENTANCE, CHARITY, COMPASSION, MODESTY, and STRONG FAMILIES which are the building blocks of community life and individual spirituality.

God is the ultimate source of light and truth whether in heaven or on earth. Friendship, mutual respect, and love are rare and precious commodities in our world today. Neal A. Maxwell said, "Love never needs a visa. It crosses over all borders and links generations and cultures." We should all seek to treasure those things that are virtuous and praiseworthy in other faiths.

Finally, let me share some relative words of wisdom: "While one portion of the human race is judging and condemning the other without mercy, the Great Parent of the universe looks upon the whole of the human family with a fatherly care and paternal regard; He views them as His offspring, and without any of the contracted feelings that influence the children of men... He holds the reins of judgment in His hands;... He will judge them, not according to what they have not, but according to what they have, those who have lived without law, will be judged without law, and those who have a law, will be judged by that law... and when the designs of God shall be made manifest, and the curtain of futurity be withdrawn, we shall all of us eventually have to confess that the Judge of all the earth has done right." - Joseph Smith.

God bless you on your mission to “make the forces of interfaith cooperation stronger than the forces of religious extremism.” Perhaps what is needed is a select network or community of religious people working together sharing ideas for a better world.

virtu - no doubt that was moderate islamics. we have identified 6 more moderate islamics in new jersey. i knew we would find some. now i know how to identify them. they are the ones who have not committed a crime yet, they are in the planning stage.

Hello E C L A T i On, Not Eclati Off!

Religious police shut a Canadian Embassy booth and another for a Montreal private college at a Saudi Arabia fair last week allegedly because they were being run by women, the globeandmail.com reports.
"From what I hear ... the religious police were very rude,” said George Chrysomilides, president of the Canadian Education Network, adding that the booths have been part of the event for 10 years and staffers have never encountered such problems.
“They shouted at them in a way that was disrespectful and they shut down the booth, the Canadian Embassy booth as well as the LaSalle College booth," Chrysomilides said.
Organizers for the Canadian contingent said the Commission for the Promotion of Virtue and the Prevention of Vice forced the three women staffing the booths to leave the fair, even though they had been cleared to attend.
The Canadian Embassy in Saudi Arabia responded by calling the religious police’s reported actions “very damaging to Saudi Arabia's international reputation.”
Women in Saudi Arabia are required to wear conservative coverings and are not allowed to work in mixed environments, but Chrysomilides said the women adhered to the rules and there shouldn’t have been a problem.

pagan - see them? i dont even know how to identify them, do you?
and i work on the computer so when i take a break i point out where islam is evil.
others point out that christians are evil, me i like to duel with islam, its like shooting fish in a barrel.

Jihadist: What's wrong? You sound bitter and sarcastic tonight. Bad news day?

...and Anonymous

Do take time out to go to the movies, listen to music, eat and drink well, have fun with sports etc. Even Muslims do that and enjoyed doing that more that thinking up 649 ways to take over the world as you insisted we are.

Oh, pssst.... by the way, the Islamofascists have taken over Muncie, Indiana and Peoria, Iowa while you are spending time spewing bile here. They are implementing Shariah law there already and Hilary Clinton allegedly said on Foxy Network - "Give me liberty from burqa or give me death!"

Come on Anonymous, get up and away from your computer monitor and keyboards, go get you guns and shoot them up before North America becomes a caliphate. The KKK are looking for recruits as freedom fighters against these Islamofascists.

Ahhh....perceptions and notions at work again.

E.g. for me, the epitome of the cool American guy is John Malkovich and Josh Hartnett. The way they move, the way they talk, the way they sound. And I measure idleal (mythical?) American guys by them admittedly.

Naturally, Americans and non-Americans would disagree on what is the "cool" American guy or hunk is. There's Tom Cruise, there's Clint Eastwood, there's Adam Sandler and such. The same way posters disagree on Mormons, women, Muslims and Islam here based on their own ideals, notions and perceptions.

And Mr. Eboo Patel. Beautiful story of coming of age - spiritually and sexually, (er, sexual awareness if I'm making you blush), what we were, want to be and are.

Salam

Maybe you should *find out,* Anonymous. You don't seem to want to see any. Why they aren't out in the streets marching, well, probably about the same reason too many Christians are quiet about the hate speech from their own quarters here in America.

Yeah, Islam believes that one day will be the only religion in the world, ...Christianity contents itself with an end of the world where 'God' obliterates everyone else via holy armies and various geophysical activity.

Again, I see little difference, especially in speech and action.

Just the things that it was considered *heretical,* or Pagan or 'Godlessly-Communist' to do about the environment in recent crucial decades make some pretty big war and death pretty inevitable, whether or not anyone calls it a jihad or crusade, first.

This hate costs time and lives. I'm not saying, 'Don't defend yourself,' ...I sure will. But I see little difference in the brand names.

wanting peace is not the same as having peace. we hope that everyone wants peace and when they say they do we grasp it like a drowning man grabs a life raft.
the closest example is hitler. he and churchill agreed to "peace in our time" and all that had to be done was look beyond the writing of hitler and his history of grabbing other peoples land.
but everyone wanted peace so when hitler said he wanted peace they ignored reality and said ok.
you want islam to want peace too, you hope that islamics have the same values that you have and that peace for islam is the same as peace for you. but is it?
look at the recent acts of islam, do they want peace? have you seen any evidence of it? where have you seen it? have you seen the common islamic in the streets demanding an end to islamic agression? have you seen them marching to stop the intafada in israel? how about to stop hamas and/or hezbulla? how about iran and its stated purpose to eliminate israel from the face of the earth? where have we seen islamics demanding peace?
and what is the definition of peace? in islam there can only be peace when islam rules the world, so if an islamic tells you he wants peace, he does not mean an end to the fighting, he means the total destruction of all competing religions and the world under the control of islam and an islamic government.
words matter and the definition of something like peace can put one at a disadvantage if that definition is not the same as yours.
so again i ask, what is a moderate islamic and how are they different that a run of the mill islamic and how do we tell them apart.

Ah, well, Anonymous, I wouldn't want a Muslim theocracy any more than I'd want a Christian one. (Especially not the way Americans are trained to take isolated bits of a book 'literally' (or however they want) and proclaim it the 'Unchanging Will Of The Biggestest God Ever!' It's just that if you put events in their cultural context, I see no real structural difference.

The reason there aren't a lot of overt religious wars by Christians going on, on any kind of scale, is because, frankly, those empires hit their limits and *contracted* long ago. Fanatics still go and mess with other people's cultures, and still run do highly-coercive things through economic means.

No, I'm not comfortable with the language in any of those book-religions' books. Don't see a whole lot of difference between Oliver Cromwell and Ian Paisley and yer latest Ayatollah, ...perhaps the only difference is circumstance and means.

America made Apartheid look pretty cozy on some counts till pretty recently in history, after all. I was born to the generation right *after* Stonewall, before which Biblical means were used to justify rape and torture and murder of queer folks by *police,* and it's not like that sort of thing has even really ended.

Whenever religious texts are used in regressive and reactionary ways, the likes of Abu Ghraib is never far behind. It doesn't even have to be *explicit,* just a devaluing and dehumanizing of people as 'enemies...' then when the thin chocks of authoritarian prohibitions are knocked away, say, by no one looking, ...bad things happen, people try to justify *those* actions by making the enemy seem still *worse,* and from there, things just have a way of snowballing.

Kindness and empathy and fearlessness snowball, too, though. We're humans. We're *made* to connect and communicate. That can be turned by a book and a little fear into a need to control belief at any cost, or it can be turned into something like that 'communion of man' you vaguely alluded to.

It's our humanity that is the answer, not fearmongering.

Woof, indeed. Interesting world, lately, ennit? :)

Wicca does have the advantage of being structurally-harder to fake or suborn on any kind of scale, and either directly spanking 'evil' people who try, or boring them out:
"Trees? Goddess? Work? Perfect love and perfect trust? When's the orgy? Aww, this isn't what the priests I'm trying to piss off said it'd be like at *all!* L8r, I'm going to play with chaos magick!"

Also a highly-substantial population of folks with a real sensitivity to abuses of power and spurious arguments from authority. Ought to hold off the creeps for a while. :)

pagan - ill try one more time.
i have quoted the koran many times and i have listed the past and current wars started and prosecuted for the sole purpose of spreading islam.
i have quoted parts of the koran that say to hate, torture, hold for ransom, murder and force conversions on those that dont want to be islamic.
i have shown that in the last few years tens of millions and maybe moe than 100 million islamics calling for the death of a cartooist and newspaper publishers. i have shown the same calls for death for a pope that uses the statements of a different pope, who condemned as evil the forced conversions called for in the koran. do you remember the million and millions who demanded the pope death for that, because they saw it as their god given right to kil or convert.
what i have not seen is even a small amount of islamics marching to protest those other islamics.
you do realize that islam is forcing itself on you by telling you that it is death if you draw a picture of moho.
so what is a moderate islamic? i have not seen any. i keep asking and no one will tell me. do they reject those hateful portions of the koran and do they do it publically? do they protest the mosques where such things are being taught.
or is the moderate islamic a figment of someones fantasy? i have not met any.
and i know a lot. i know past ministers of islamic countries, i even have a koran autographed by a saudi minister.
there is nothing wrong with the people, but inasmuch as their religion controlls their relationship with the rest of the world, you cannot discount it.
if a man tells you that he has a book and that this book controlls his relationship with everyone and everything, that it sets his moral tone with the rest of humanity, do you ask what it says, or do you read it? i read it. and if that book has some nice things in it but it is also full of hate, what do you think of the person who is ruled by it? and if that book if mein kampf, do you let them say, well im a moderate nazi, im just going along, but i dont agree with it, but they do nothing to stop it. are they as guilty as those who practice it.
and if that book is the koran, i ask the same question, do you let them get away with saying i dont really bother with it.
now the strange thing about christians is that jesus said love one another, and while there are two main branches of islam, there are hundreds of different christians, and none of them appear to follow the literal words of the bible, even fundamentalists.
so when you can tell me what a moderate islamic is, i would be happy to know it.

and as for boo boy - he is another one that smiles and does nothing to change the hate within islam. i have already quoted his words, and his nutty story which seems to change about racial slurs. and his reference to jewish terrorists and no matter how hard i look i dont see jews straping bombs on themselves and blowing up icr cream parlors or pizza parlors or night clubs to kill only women and children. i have read over 100 of his articles and not once has he come out and condemned islamic killings.

Anon-

I'm going to give it one more try. There are over one billion people who follow the Islamic faith, who, like you or me, just want to live their lives in peace. You paint everyone who is a Muslim with the same brush. There are evil people who follow Islam; there are evil people in every group you'd care to name (with the possible exception of Wiccans!) But when you deem an entire class of people evil because of the actions of a few, you become just as evil as they are.

"“On Faith” panelist Eboo Patel is founder and executive director of the Interfaith Youth Core, a Chicago-based international nonprofit working to make the forces of interfaith cooperation stronger than the forces of religious extremism."

If you are so passionately against the Muslim extremists, it would make more sense to join Mr. Patel, rather than rail against someone who is trying to fight extremists. Blessed Be.

to PaganPlace:

Arf, Arf! Woof! (wags tail)

"have never seen the quote of if i kill you your blood is upon you. you got that one all wrong.
the old testament assertion that it was a killing offense for men to have sex with men is not enforced anyplace in the world that i know of. "

Like I said, I've seen it used by Christians to threaten *me,* (with rape and death) and I'm not even a man.

The point is that your claims that Islam is *uniquely* evil while other book-religions, of course are totally incapable of such things, even when they've done them throughout history, ...is just you looking for enemies and not seeing the real problems.

In other words, your defense of Christianity and Judaism is based on the same arguments that you reject coming from Muslims.

This is especially important to wrap your mind around when a lot of people, out of the *fear* you promote, want to create oppressive theocracies of their *own.*

It seems your agenda is to prove how 'bad' Islam is, compared to everyone else.

If it's liberty and justice you value, the answer isn't amplifying the hatred and fear, which'll only cause a lot of people to abandon the very freedoms they thought they were protecting.

This is not only a really bad idea, it's also hypocrisy. Refusing to see it for such won't change that. Fear won't keep us safe. Fear makes mobs ...and big mistakes with dangerous objects.

"now islamics may do it, i know they kill for adultry, but i dont know a country that follows jewish law abouyt that."

Again, look up 'Dominionism.'

I think you're simply wanting to project the whole mess onto *one kind of people* while actually making the problems worse.

Enough.

pagan did i say i was ruled by a book? what i am ruled by is the constitution and the laws of the state i reside in. everything else is personal and does not effect my physical conduct to others.

pagan:
islam is different than christianity and any other religion. every war islam is involved in is religious and for religious purposes or so they say.
other people get into wars for the same reasons they did in the past, you have something they want and they are going to try to take it.
in the old days if you won you got it, if you lost you lost what you had.
as for radicals - what is a moderate islamic? i can look around the world and not see one war with christians involved which was started for the purpose of forcing jesus and being a christian into their reality.
but i can see many islamic wars for the purpose of forcing islam on people - or killing them if they do not convert.
and in america we actually stop violent conduct.
and you have to remember something. i never said it was wrong to believe in islam, i said it was wrong to force it on others. yes there are many things i see as offensive in islam, far too much hate, but its the killing that i want stopped. they can believe how ever they want - not my business - until they decided to go back to killing to force conversions.
and yes there is something inherent in the koran - it specifically says kill to convert. i have just quoted it.
i have never seen the quote of if i kill you your blood is upon you. you got that one all wrong.
the old testament assertion that it was a killing offense for men to have sex with men is not enforced anyplace in the world that i know of. now islamics may do it, i know they kill for adultry, but i dont know a country that follows jewish law abouyt that.
i will not delude myself to thinking that islam is anything but evil.
murdering vangough for a movie. asking for death and having millions riot over a picture of moho. that would be them inforcing their religious beliefs on the rest of us. demaning the death of the pope for saying it was evil to force conversions as the koran commands.
what is this but pure evil.
name one islamic country today that is a paradise or where you wife whould like to live.
the first thing they did in iran after the shaw left was reduce th age of consent for sex with a minor to 9 years old. do you know any 9 year old capable of agreeing to having sex, much less knowing what they are agreeing to?
no, islam is evil.

Actually, I'm against Romney cause he was a corporate toadie when he was governor of Massachusetts, and no better than the rest of the religious-conservative lot.

See what I mean? You were busy proving my point about what'd happen if I went and spelled it out for you.

The problem is when you start taking *any* book as 'Ultimate law' ..it doesn't offer protection from horror: it offers excuses to *commit* them while disavowing responsibility for things which, you're right, no book can really cover.

We must. As living, feeling beings. You may use a book how you wish, but when it comes down to it, any of them are pretty much all-purpose tools, too -readily-abuseable.

It was an interesting article. Mormons are generally good, God fearing people who are accepting of all others regardless of which religion they are aligned with. You may have heard or read some negative things about presidential candidate Mitt Romney who is also a mormon. This is only because he faces extreme religious bigotry and extreme political opposition. To find out about Romney go to http://mittromneyin2008.com

old - you are not correct. it is the 6th commandment says murder not kill. another translation is innocent life. but several bibles use kill.
i dont remember a kill every man woman and child thing. now herod said kill all male children under the age of 2[?]. he was condemned for that, he was a despot and i dont know any version of the old testament that says he was a great guy. do you? let me know, im will to read it.
here are some reference on the 6th amendment:
Various translations exist of the sixth commandment; the Hebrew words לא תרצח are variously translated as "thou shalt not kill" or "thou shalt not murder". Older Protestant translations of the Bible, those based on the Vulgate and Roman Catholic translations usually render it "Thou shalt not kill", whereas Jewish and newer Protestant versions tend to use "You shall not murder". There is controversy as to which translation is more faithful, and both forms are quoted in support of ethical standpoints.

The Vulgate (Latin) translation has Non occides, i.e. "Thou shalt not kill". English translations using "kill" include the King James (Authorised) (1611), American Standard (1901) and Revised Standard (American Protestant, 1952) Versions. Almost all Roman Catholic translations, including the Douay-Rheims Bible (1609/1752), the New American Bible (1970), the New Jerusalem Bible (1985) and the Christian Community Bible (1986), have "kill". Martin Luther (German, 1534) also uses tödten (kill).

Protestant translations using "murder" include the New English Bible (British Protestant, 1970), and the New King James (American, 1982), New Revised Standard (American, 1989) and English Standard (American Protestant, 2001) Versions. Jewish translations almost all use "murder", including the Jewish Publication Society of America Version (1917), the Judaica Press tanach (1963) and the Living Torah (1981). A Jewish exception is the Artscroll or Stone Edition tanach (1996).

The many examples in the Old Testament of killing sanctioned by God, are quoted in defense of the view that "murder" is more accurate. Furthermore, the Hebrew word for "kill" is "הרג" - "harog", while the Hebrew word for "murder" is "רצח" - "retzach", which is found in the Ten Commandments "לא תרצח" - "lo tirtzach".

Traditional translations of this phrase into English have tended to use the word kill. Certain scholars have suggested that this is not the most accurate translation. The key phrase, often translated "to kill" (rasah), began in the twentieth century to be translated "Thou shalt not murder," is seen in newer translations of the Bible such as the New Revised Standard Version. The scholar Terence Fretheim notes, "In view of certain passages (e.g., 1 Kings 21:19) it has been suggested that the verb means murder" (1991, p. 232). He goes on to note that this phrase can refer to unintentional killing (Deut. 4:41–42) or the execution of a convicted murderer (Num. 35:30). A growing number of scholars now agree that this term for killing in Hebrew that is used in the Ten Commandments is never used in Hebrew Scripture to refer to the type of killing that takes place in a war.

Hebrew language scholars agree that killing in war is different and not covered by this use of the phrase "to kill." If one soldier is angry with another from his or her same army and shoots him or her, even in a battle, it would still be murder. However, to kill an enemy in the context of a "just" war is not directly covered in this passage. A majority of the world's religious traditions make this distinction, referring to "holy war" or "Jihad" as being acceptable. There are generally some criteria for this type of "just" war that, depending on the world tradition, generally reflects doing the work of God and/or serving the needs of justice in the world order. Historically this commandment is used as the foundation for an argument against going to war, by persons wishing not to serve in such a human conflict. However, to argue this point biblically requires other passages to support the argument.

The Ten Commandments were given to offer order in social relationships due to the understanding that, at the heart of all relationships, love is the model that is to be held up as ideal. Whether discussing God's love, or the love of Jesus Christ for Christians, God and God's prophets are the ideal of this message of love in the various faith traditions. Thus the various traditions understand Abraham, Jesus, and Mohammad, along with other key figures, as this type of model. Further, world religious traditions in general pray for world peace. The values of all three communities reflect the possibility of a world that is free of war and armed conflict. Finally, in each tradition there is a wide variance among interpreters of the various traditions as to what that criterion is. This is as true of Islam as it is of Christianity and Judaism. The complete criteria for a "holy" or "just war" are beyond the scope of what can be written in a book.

John Calvin, the Protestant reformer of the sixteenth century, summarized the meaning of this commandment by saying "that we should not unjustly do violence to anyone." The Book of Numbers clarifies that which constitutes murder as stabbing or hurting another in anger or enmity, or killing another person for personal gain. The primary foundation of this commandment, according to Calvin, reflects the understanding that "undoubtedly God would have the remains of His image, which still shines forth in men, to continue in some estimation, so that all might feel that every homicide is an offence against Him" (Calvin 1993, p. 20).

so there is a differnce of opinion.

certain sects say any killing is wrong - it does not have to be murder. others say killing of anything is wrong, it does not have to be human.

only one religion say to go out and kill - islam.

Umm, how do you think we got America?

Currently, though? Well, I dunno, maybe you should ask what our current leaders and those that want to tell you Islam is that different from Christianity in history, or even, perhaps in ambition. Frankly, I think *both* religions ought to tell their radicals to f'n cool it.

Look up 'Dominionism' ...these Christians are angling for power right here in America, already-well-connected and pushing propaganda, and some of that stuff they plan on makes the Handmaid's Tale look like 'Heather Has Two Mommies.'

There's nothing inherent to *either* of these books that really *protects* us from the tyrranies and atrocities that happen when authoritarian religions are given secular power.

I'm not going to throw Bible verses at you for you to ramble on about how, 'Oh, well these ones are really OK, and right, ' and do all the things you accuse Mr. Patel, and all Muslims of doing. Seen it too many times, and, it's pointless and redundant.

I mean, heck *I* don't want to be ruled by Islamic countries, I don't even *count* when it comes to ideas my life should be spared, according to most.

But sure, Christians pretty routinely use a thing about gay *men* to say, "If I kill *you* 'your blood is upon you,* ..which means it's really your fault."

How's that for an example? There's the ever-popular, 'Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live?' I get that one thrown at me a fair bit...

I mean, don't try to obfuscate, here. I've read that book and been subjected to how plenty of Christians are given to use it. Christians have done all the things that you accuse 'all Muslims' of being party to, by dint of what the Koran says, so it's pretty pointless to be railing against Islam in such a hateful manner when the real issue is how people can read *either* of these books to call murder and atrocity and forced conversion 'divinely mandated' whenever they happen to be so inclined.

If you can't see that for yourself, instead just thinking one version of the same kind of religion is 'evil' while the other is 'always good,' then, you aren't 'opposing evil,' you're just taking sides in a 'war' that *has* no real 'righteousness.'

Only confusion. And hatred. Feeding on each other.

ok you put them into context. you cant. what context can possibly make the following acceptable?
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and pratice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."
or the conduct leading up to the crusades:
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.
or maybe you think the conduct of islam in india for the purpose of spreading islam, was acceptable?
the koran says what the koran says and if you are islamic you must submit to it and follow its commands. so which ones will you reject?

If I recall right after bringing down the second set of commandments, the ones that say thou shalt not kill. The Jews where command to kill every man woman and child of several groups including the ones inhabiting the Holy Land. I find it hard to reconcile these revelations from God to the Jews to commit genocide on so many groups. In fact they were punished at least once for not killing everyone and showing mercy. As for the new testament I remember a man and his wife who decided not to pay their share to the communal fund and how they were illed instantly for this..

anony-hate!!!! you seem to have more hate then the people you trying to accused of. the verses that you are trying to use are wrong and/or are used wrong. there is no such thing, God was talking about when you under attack by your opposser who is trying to take away a muslim(submission to the will of ALLAH/GOD)way of life, MUSLIMS makes no different in the name,they are thought to defend themselves, just like a man learn to and bible say" an eye for an eye,a tooth for a tooth, and life for a life" no one wants violance but its a part of life thats why we have police,military and law-enforcers all over the world. just like the world has some type of law-enforcement in just in case you break the law depending on what it is, then Allah/God has the same thing in place, it has nothing yo do with forcing ANYONE to convert and even in your own comment earlier you quoted in one of the verses to leave them along if they give you peace. I think you should check out islam 101.com

boo boy will not do it publically. he has never said anyting bad about islam or their conduct. when ever he talks about the middle east he never fails to mention jew terrorists.

Eboo Patel et al:

Will you please post your condemnation of the acts of the Fort Dix Six?

you keep saying my bible - when did i ever say i was any religion at all?
and as i sit here i am watching the results of the arrest of new ISLAMIC terrorists.
can you name any place in the world where non islamics are in a war for the specific purpose of forcing the enemy to join their religion? i can name a lot of islamics that are doing it - i got the list from an islamic professor - and it is posted above. so lets see your list.

Hardly "losing" when I'm not here to debate the relative merits and problems of two religions I don't subscribe to. I'm here to say that you *can't hear your own* while you accuse others of doing the same damn things.

Your Bible. Your religion. *You* read it for something other than an ego-stroking.

If you can't do that, then there's no point in me looking it up for you, is there?

thank you for losing so quickly. when someone asks me for proof that islam demands hate, murder, torture, kidnapping, or forced conversions, i produce them.
so again i thak you for losing so quickly by not being able to show the jews or christians being required to hate, murder, torture, kidnapping, or forced conversions.
that was too easy.

Your book. Your religion. *You* go find em, and what Christians do with them. If I tell you, you'll just claim 'That's not what *real* Christians believe it means,' which is an argument about Islam you won't accept from Mr. Patel, or anyone.

Hint: go look where Christians rail at gays and nonbelievers, say, Beliefnet, or Worldnetdaily, or maybe even your local letters to the editors column, or Christian radio or TV.

If you think there isn't just as much in the Bible that is used to *absolutely* claim the right to kill sinners and nonbelievers and go forth and convert the world by force if necessary, then you've got *pretty selective hearing,* pal.

You kind of notice when you're being threatened with them.

wicca - you have to make up your mind. either you want america to ingterfer with the internal affairs of other countries or you dont.
as for communism, i support everything we did to stop them, everything.
to be under the communists would be like being under the will of islam. a fate worse than death.
the saudi's nationalized private oil interests after ww2, as did all the middle east. we lost the oil at that time. for decades they needed the rest of the world to keep the oil flowing. if we did not have evil oil we would all be dead by now. we would have burned down the forests, killed all the animals, and starved to death, or froze to death, or some such thing.
but there would be no phones, computers, mass produced clothing, transportation of food, or mass production of housing.
what do you want?

pagan - what verses are you speaking of? i know the old testamen recites history and battles and lots of death, LOTS OF DEATH! i dont know if i can deny history, but if it pleases you i would just as soon that - from the time of adam and eve - no violence of any type ever happened to anyone and further that no one was ever killed or died. if you want me to be more specific you have to be more specific. and i do not know any verse of the old testament that requires hate, murder or forced conversions for as long as the jews exist. do you?
as for the new testament i dont know a single verse that commands hate, murder, torture, kidnapping or forced conversions. as far as i know jesus said love one another.
now if you are talking about those who said they were christian and forced coversions, you are correct - i renounce them. i say that they are evil and wrong, but not becasue the new testament was wrong, but because the acts they did were morally corupt. and for those who are alive today and seek to spread the word of jesus through force or violence, as some say they do, i say now, they are evil in themselves and i do not support them. the nazi's said they marched with jesus, even though established an islamic ss division. when it comes to skin heads, or the kkk, or any such groups, they should be punished to the fullest extent of the law when ever possible and if their conduct resulted in death, they should be tried, convicted and punished with execution.
is there something else you like?

What PaganPlace said (at 2:16)

When we stopped acting like Americans (can you picture John Wayne torturing someone?)we failed the world, and ourselves.

Our country (which was founded on inalienable rights for all men) supported tinpot dictators in order to "fight" Communism or guarantee $0.50/gal gas. We are now reaping what we've sown. Do you think that if we had put pressure on the Sauds back in the 50s and 60s to grant some basic human rights to their subjects, maybe now we would have the good will of the people they oppressed? Or are rights only for white male landowners?

Did you know 'gullible' isn't in the dictionary? :)

If we had more religions that took a little bit of Star Wars, a whole lot of revisionist history, and a dash of gullibility, the religious world might be more fun to dabble in. But instead we have psychos who like to behead infidels and blow up abortion clinics. Hooray for religion!

Well, as I've repeatedly pointed out, the Christian Bible has plenty of verses which have been used to justify atrocities and forced conversions.

Are you prepared to repudiate and renounce *those,* Anonymous?

Why this fixation on trying to discredit Muslims who *do* claim to believe something else about *their* book?

sarah - as long as the koran tell islamics that they can force conversions then that is their law. i cant change that and i have not see any islamice reject it.
the last open discourse on it took place when the pope quoted a prior pope who said that the korans command to force conversions was evil got a hundred million islamics marching in every country in the world claiming it was their right to force conversions and calling for the death of the pope.
that was last year so i would say islam still feels it is a right they have.

Well, to let Anonymous in on a well-kept secret: there already *is* a 'Communion of Man,' just not as a right wing code word for 'Total Hegemony and Domination.'

We all *already are* in this together. That 'Communion' is simply soured and disrupted by hate and misapplied power, and hunger for control.

But we already live in it. Perhaps all cultures are coming to a point where many within each are willing to look at some of the horrible things we've done, while living in one culture or another, in one position of power or disempowerment before.

We're already one people. We just refuse to know it. And this doesn't, cannot, *shouldn't* mean we're all the *same,* or *need to be.* for this 'peace' that villifiers always vaguely promise but never seem to get around to actually *working on.*

I think that here in America, we have some knowing of the corruption that comes both to governmental or military power, and to religion, when the two are combined in the name of an absolute, unaccountable, unreachable authority.

Hatred and fear of Muslims didn't stop Bush's 'divinely-inspired' Iraq war from destroying all of the good things we could have done for the 'Communion of Man' with the resources we still throw into that morass.

His believing it was in keeping with and inspired by the 'Right Religion' to go do the wrong thing incompetently didn't make it any less a 'Catastrof***' as Jon Stewart has called it.

All his belief in his 'talking to God' and pandering to fellow theocrats did was make him ignore reason when deploying massive force in ways the whole *world* knew were totally inadviseable.

He kind of insisted that 'If I'm just righteous, it'll bring peace and rosepetal parades and all kinds of miracles, even if I don't even have a plan, ...Since it's so much a higher calling, I'll lie and cheat and force the whole thing through, lie about the lies, and consider it all for the 'greater divine good.'

Now, I was all for blowing the crap out of the Taliban with unhallowed fury and extreme prejudice: not only were those guys terrible oppressors, guilty, and actually a real danger, there were acheivable and valid objectives that we could have accomplished, even in Afghanistan, which is saying something.

If we hadn't gone off on what Bush called a 'Crusade' in Iraq until someone managed to convince him that that was too boneheaded even for him to say, then, it could have been done. Not by telling Muslims 'Islam is evil,' but by saying, 'These guys were a threat to your local chiefs and ancient way of life, anyway, and, well, clearly they pissed us off. Note how that doesn't fly. Sorry about the shrapnel. And, umm, creating the Taliban and stirring up their fanaticism to fight a proxy war against 'Godless Communism' and all, then letting them run amok. Would you like a Marshall Plan?'

You can't fight an *idea.* Or a *principle.* You can, however, destroy *systems* and create *suffering.*

If we turn our American liberty into a token characterization of 'Christian corporatist domination' ...then even America's fondest ideals become a mere *system.* Not only destructible, but *self-destructible.* A means to some end that will never come. Not to the good, anyway.

When we say our American freedoms were only meant for *some* kinds of people, it doesn't matter how 'evil' you think those people are. We become locked in an internal struggle to *preserve* those ideals against things which would destroy them.

When it comes to liberty and justice, there have been other people who've been used as an argument for turning the American ideals into a mere system of control... It's been messy at times, but let's not be the generation that chickened out and *lost* those ideals.

The question should not be whether Islam is a violent religion or not. I personally do not believe any religion is inherently violent. Though the behavior of majority of muslims over the last 1000 years the world over (not to mention the last 25 years) does not leave much wiggle room. I would have to say the Islam being practised by these people is violent. And please do not start quoting verses from the holy books either way, either to show how peaceful or violent this religion is.
One question: What is Islam's view on conversions today? Does it support forced/cajoled/educated conversions by Imams or people in religios power?
Another question I have: Why is do you kill/punish people who do not agree with your views and/or criticize you? Do you think if I go to Saudi Arabia or Iran or Pakistan and say bad things about muslims and their behavior (these things may be true or false...that is besides the point), would I still live to see another day or come back and tell my story? As against that, you can come to this wonderful country or go anywhere in Europe (most countries) for that matter, practise your own religion (privately AND openly) and criticise Christianity, Judaism etc. openly and yet go on about your daily lives without fear of someone coming to your house and trying to kill you and your family. What explanation do the sensible muslims have to offer for that? What incites such behavior? Do you condemn such behavior?

well i went to the link and i found this:
"As tension raged after Pope Benedict's speech at Regensburg University about a 14th century Byzantine emperor's castigation of Prophet Muhammad's teaching as "evil and inhuman," Manji said on CBS, "As a faithful Muslim, I do not believe the pope should have apologized" for what he said, because, "Actually, he called for dialogue with the Muslim world."

strange that this moderate islamic seemed to forget that part where it specifically said that forced conversions into islam were evil and inhuman.

why is it islamics cant tell the truth about anything.

wicca the answer with this in it ""Traditional Muslims are 'those who restrain anger and pardon people'" did not come from me.

wicca - how do you know that? when the truth of islam is exposed they might change, but the choice will be theirs alone.
at least people will not be taken in by a smiling face and lies.
then the ball is in islams court and they can continue with their constant wars and the rest of the world will know what they are doing and may move to stop them, physically.
but the choice will be islams.
for myself i do not think that not telling people about those vile portions of the koran will accomplish anything, except to let them be fooled into not protecting themselves.
i dont know what a moderate islamic is, do you? do you know what a moderate islamic stands for? have we seen them marching in the streets or preching in the mosques, or on the radio or the tv? i havn's seen any. do the moderates come out in public and reject the hate, the torture, kidnapping, murder and forced conversions? do these moderates ever present themwelves to the world? i have never seen one and boo boy has not come out and said anything that would make himself moderate. he says what every islamic says, while ignoring the history and teachings of islam.
remember that it is and has been islam that is attacking the rest of the world, not the other way around. i dont see catholics, methodists, hindu's, budhists, or any other religious groups who spend their prayer time, telling their people to hate anyone not islamic and prasing those that murder people who are different. now there might be a few, probably are, but i dont know them. sure there are skin heads, or nazis' or kkk members, or such splinter groups, but when you get 100,000,000 people marching and calling for death for a picture of moho, or demanding the death of the pope for implying that it was evil for islam to force conversions as part ofthe koran, we are far and away into a society of hate.
but im all for peace, until there cant be peace.

Wiccan:

"Say you somehow convinced everyone of the 'evil of Islam.' What's the next step? What do you propose to *do* about it?"

We should make every effort to enlighten our local communities and reach out to our global communities who find themselves under extremist's tyranny.

We should continue to create places of sanctuary for majority traditional Muslims. There is more to this story. Why is a film on moderate Islam being suppressed?

"Traditional Muslims are 'those who restrain anger and pardon people'"

http://www.guampdn.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070509/OPINION02/705090332/1014/OPINION

Anonymous,

"...because they have now rejected those hateful verses of the koran and to welcome them to the communion of man and a life of peace for them and their children.
is there a problem with that?"

Ha! YOU welcome someone to the communion of man?! A life of peace?! That is just the kind of pompous thing I'd expect to see from you.

So YOU are the Welcome Wagon to the communion of man, and determmine what others have to do to BE welcomed?

Anon-

That was almost a reaonable answer. But if you convince people that Islam is evil, they will NOT use peaceful means to get Islam to do whatever they want. We're talking about humans here. Muslims would become pariahs, and that's a dangerous thing to do to over one billion people, most of whom are decent folk.

Moderate Muslims get angry when they hear "All Muslims are evil, want to cut off your head, etc." Hatred is not a viable form of persuasion. Don't you think of another form of engagement might be more successful?

Are you willing to hold American Christianity and its partisans in our own government to those standards, Anonymous?

Still not sure where the necessity of hate and calling a religion 'evil' comes in. Is Christianity 'evil' for its history of forced conversions and treatments of people who rejected their Bible, or parts thereof?

Cause if these things make *one* religion 'evil,' ...doesn't it make another one just as 'evil,' no matter how many times you point at what you see 'the other guy' is doing?

I mean, hey, that's part of why I'll never Christian *nor* Muslim, (apart from that bit about actually having my own faith, of course, :) )

Maybe it's the *wars* and the *hatred* and the *conversions* that are 'evil.' Maybe forced conversion and walking in to destroy the cultures of the dispossessed just cause you think you have a divine mandate to bring everyone into *line* is really all part of the same kind of 'evil; Whoever does it.

Maybe 'evil' involves *trying to control others.*

Are you being *good,* or just trying to back *your* 'team' in the same destructive game?

wicca - the next step if i got everyone to believe that islam is evil would be to use every peaceful means available to get islam to reject their demands for forced conversions as well as hate of others not islamic, and to get them to stop all the wars they are currently involved in, and to take all those resources to build social institutions, like schools, libraries - or in this day and age i would say internet availability - to build roades and hospitals, to train doctors to care for the sick and elderly.
to stop killing those who are different because they have now rejected those hateful verses of the koran and to welcome them to the communion of man and a life of peace for them and their children.
is there a problem with that?

well now we have another version of that story by boo boy. well boo boy has done it again. here is the site: http://www.humiliationstudies.org/news/2007/05/
now instead of the jewish friend - its boo boy who is the target of discrimination. here is what boo boy had to say:
"Growing up outside Chicago, subject to a constant barrage of racist bullying, and unsure of what it meant to be Muslim, Patel had a gut-wrenching feeling of being excluded from mainstream society. In high school he rejected everything about his Indian and Muslim heritage and excelled in academics in an attempt to be like the white Americans around him. In college, this illusion came undone as Patel discovered the liberatory power of identity politics—and a deep rage at the inequities and hypocrisies of America."

hey boo - where does your money come from?

TO THOSE WHO THINK (ANOS/GLEN) THAT YOU CAN TAKE THE QUR'AN AND PICK OUT THINGS THAT IN THERE IN THE ENGLISH VERSION I BEG TO CHALLAGE YOU ON THIS VERSES. ISLAM IS A PEACEFUL WAY OF LIFE, I WOULD REALLY LIKE TOO GET INTO THIS SUBJECT BUT 1. I'AM AT WORK BUT I HAD TO RESPOND TO THIS MISUDERSTOOD PRESON WHICH GOT HIS INFO. FROM MS. SHERILY 2. I'AM A SLOW TPYER AND WHEATHER HAVE A PERSONAL OR PHONE CONVERSATION. I WOULD LIKE THIS PERSON WHO IS FULL OF HATE FOR EVERY THING TO TALK TO ME SO I CAN GIVE HIM UNDERSTANDING(" DON'T WORRY I DON'T TRUST YOU EITHER BUT I FEAR ONLY GOD") MR. WHOEVER YOU ARE IT'S EASY TO JUST HATE AND NOT TAKE A TRUE STAND ON ANYTHING THAT CAN BE DECLARED AS COWDLY BUT I BEG THOSE PEOPLE WHO IS TRUELY LOOKING FOR TRUE UNDERSTANDING OF THE QUR'AN TO LOOK AT ISLAM 101. COM peace to all that try to follow good path. my address elow32_2004@yahoo.com

Hater (aka Anonymous)-

May I echo PaganPlace's question?

"Say you somehow convinced everyone of the 'evil of Islam.' What's the next step? What do you propose to *do* about it?"

Or is it just more fun kvetching? It's certainly less responsible.

Headline News, May 8, 2007

http://www.cnn.com/2007/US/05/08/fortdix.plot/index.html

"'Islamic radicals' arrested in plot to kill U.S. soldiers

Six "Islamic radicals" involved in a plot to kill U.S. soldiers at Fort Dix in New Jersey were arrested Monday night, the U.S. attorney's office in New Jersey said today. One of the suspects was born in Jordan, another in Turkey, the U.S. attorney's office said. The rest are believed to be from the former Yugoslavia, "either U.S. citizens or living illegally in the United States," the office said in a statement."

And you wonder why we are suspicious of anything Islamic??????

well boo boy has been caught. remember that little thing posted about his jewish friend and how hurt he was not to have confronted those who wrote the slurs. here is what he wrote a few years before that article:
http://www.pluralism.org/affiliates/patel/patel_speech.php
The importance of learning a public language of faith was brought home to me in a recent conversation with one of my best friends from high school, a Jew. There were a group of kids in my high school who took up scrawling anti-semitic slurs on classroom desks and shouting similar obscene comments in the hallways. Most students ignored this behavior, but a handful of people I knew snickered approvingly at these comments. My attention was probably focused on raising my pre-calc grade out of the gutter, and there was a part of me relieved that my kind weren't in the target range, so I ignored both the blatant anti-semitism and the hangers-on. Years later, my Jewish friend shared with me how deeply those comments cut him, and worse, how he felt betrayed by the silence of the people he thought were his close friends.

I apologized for my complicity in his suffering. He accepted this apology, and then stated, "I wonder if any of you even realized I was Jewish. None of us ever talked about religion." This revelation does not excuse our inaction in those days, but it does highlight the dangers of diversity without pluralism. Had the high school bullies chosen to go after Muslims, I think I would have suffered alone, like my Jewish friend. I had not made that private part of myself public.

notice the difference. in this article - published before the other one above, he did not know his friend was jewish. he did not have any feeling about not comforting his friend or not confronting the anti-semitic slur mongers. and in this one he did not avoid his friend as he said above - becasue he was ashamed.

one wonders if this ever happened because he cannot seem to get the facts right, and he was there.

come now boo boy - try the truth.

I think those (collins and anym.) and others who just wait for keywords such as Islam, Muslim, or religion lack any character and intelligence. Why does anyone even try to debate with them, they won't accept anything good that comes from the Muslims. I'm glad Mr. Patel was able to receive good lessons from a Mormom. Just b.c he is Muslim doesn't mean he can't/shouldn't learn from non-Muslims. Character and virtue should be universal traits that extend to various faiths and creeds. It's unfortunate that Mr. Patel couldn't find enlightenment from other Muslims but in the end it doesn't matter because it produces positive change in his Islamic identity. Mormoms struggle with their identity as do other religious peoples do. So, I suggest all of those who lie and wait for any Islamic theme to turn off their computer, shut down their media player with kiddy porn on it, and get a job b.c clearly all you like to do is control F anything Islamic and cut and paste lies and slander.

So, what are *you* doing, Anonymous, apart from trying to spread hatred? If 'pluralism' is something you really value, you seem to be worried there's tigers somewhere while there's a bear in the house.

I think you're afraid someone's going to come along and treat *you* like you seem to want to treat them.

Say you somehow convinced everyone of the 'evil of Islam.' What's the next step? What do you propose to *do* about it?

'Stop' 'Them' ..from something, clearly?

By what means and methods do you intend to accomplish this? What will you do?

Especially without killing the freedoms you seem to think you're trying to protect... without becoming the very monster you fear.

If you're worried about religious freedom and pluralism, *here* then you should be standing, without compromise *for* religious freedom and civility for *all* here. Saying *no* to theocrats and fearmongers, even if they clothe themselves in your *own* religion.

Maybe even saying *no* to yourself, once in a while, when you're tempted to be very unAmerican about your fears.

You know, it's really clever to hide behind the "anonymous" and then show disrespect to others by disdainfully butchering THEIR name.

I have seen you refer to Mr. Patel as "Boo", and "Boo Boy", and it makes ANYTHING else you have to say (valid or not) absolutely worthless.

The difference between somone with a differing opinion who I respect, and just an opinionated fool unworthy of regard, is the level of repsect they DESERVE.

While there is no guarantee that one will get respect just by giving it, one will NEVER get it without doing so.

here is more from boo boy:
http://www.crosscurrents.org/Patelsummer2003.htm
"This is the same line that V. S. Naipaul has been pushing for two decades: Islam is a culture-crushing force. It will replace your language, your buildings, your clothes and your prayers. Furthermore, in its most militant and virulent form, Islam will take your sons and turn them into human bombs. And you should be thankful for it.

Is this true? Yes and no. First of all, Islam in and of itself does nothing. It is a word which stands for a deep and complex idea—submission to the will of God. People who call themselves Muslims seek to interpret this idea of submission to the will of God in concrete ways in particular places and times. Muslims do things.

The problem is that we live in a time when the Muslim totalitarians are dominating. Why? Because they are building powerful institutions that propagate their interpretation of Islam—just as the Christian totalitarians in America have powerful institutions; and the Jewish totalitarians in Israel have powerful institutions; and the Hindu totalitarians in India have powerful institutions.

What do I mean by institutions? Lobbying groups that pass policies, political organizations that get people elected, television and radio and magazines and publishing houses which articulate ideas, schools and universities, youth organizations and women’s groups, bodies which raise and distribute money.

Al Qaida is a network of institutions: Schools and mosques which teach eight year olds a certain ideology; organizations which lead them to Afghanistan; training camps which make them soldiers; manuals which offer advice on the prayers to whisper while engaging in violence. The religious identity—which is to say, the ways of being, believing and belonging in relation with the transcendent—of too many young Muslims is being shaped by these institutions."

notice the failure to even mention that the koran demands murder torure kidnapping and forced conversion. no, according to boo boy its just the same as other religious groops.
will islamics ever tell the truth?

"You mean you are telling me, that once she drew that circle around her body and left her arms and whatever else outside the circle. He actually continued to date her?

I find that very very hard to believe. He claims to have "teenage hormones." Last time I checked if one girl was being a prude you move on to the next one during these "teenage hormone" years."

Maybe *you* do, Kloc, but it *is* actually possible for teenage boys to be gentlemanly and actually *like* people, rather than just try to use them, even in the hormonal pressure-cooker of repression much of society seems to put them in.

I'd have probably said, 'By all means, move on,' not cause of some imaginary 'strike zone' someone put on my body for people trying to get to 'second base' or whatever, ...not cause my body was marked off as someone's 'territory' for later 'invasion,' but just out of some kind of self respect. :)

Frankly, people who walked around claiming to 'have game' (would have been a different phrase) and then walked off calling people 'ugly' when they don't get what they want tended to be so busy strutting for the other males about it, that they didn't notice how little their 'game' was getting them.

Plenty of em got older without ever growing up. I mean, you're what, trying to ridicule this man you don't know for showing some respect for boundaries *how* many years ago? Gods.

here is what boo boy wrote a while back. i feel like he says he feels now, that he cannot let it happen. except the evil i see is islam.

"A few years after we graduated, my Jewish friend from the lunchroom reminded me of an experience we both wish had never happened. A group of thugs in our high school had taken to scrawling anti-Semitic slurs on classroom desks and shouting them in the hallway.

I did not confront them. I did not comfort my Jewish friend. Instead I averted my eyes from their bigotry, and I avoided my friend because I couldn't stand to face him.

My friend told me he feared coming to school those days, and he felt abandoned as he watched his close friends do nothing. Hearing him tell me of his suffering and my complicity is the single most humiliating experience of my life.

My friend needed more than my silent presence at the lunch table. I realize now that to believe in pluralism means I need the courage to act on it. Action is what separates a belief from an opinion. Beliefs are imprinted through actions.

In the words of the great American poet Gwendolyn Brooks: "We are each other's business; we are each other's harvest; we are each other's magnitude and bond."

I cannot go back in time and take away the suffering of my Jewish friend, but through action I can prevent it from happening to others."

one wonders exactly what action boo boy has taken to prevent it from happening again? i have looked and there are not marches, or even writings, so we are back to empty islamic words. they sound good and make everyone feel warm and fuzzy, but they accomplish nothing.

dave i went to discussrace.com. there was nothing there about islam, and islam is not a race, it is a religion.
im wondering if all the people here would be so accepting of nazi's, if they had said they were a religion and not a political system?
just becasue you pray does not mean you are a religion. naz's prayed - for the death of all the jews, and so does islam.
the largest single ss unit in ww2 belonged to the islamic unit. hitler even allowed them their own flag. http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/1-flag_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm
and here is the stats for islam for 2006 - not a day went by that they did not kill someone for islam.

well true to form - that is what the world has received, is receiving and will receive from islam.

thomas - you are not talking about the alleged god of islam, he is all hate and torture and murder.

Actually God is Love. Whatever you do out of Love you are doing for God. Even if you have all the "right dogma" but you aren't at least trying to live in Love then it really doesn't add up to nothing. Knowing God's Name really isn't the answer either because God is not the egomaniac that a lot of people think that He is. A lot of people are in for a great shock when they realize that Jesus said "Come follow Me" not to browbeat and condemn everyone else and act like you are so superior to everyone else. Judge not, condemn no one might sound like simple words and they are but they are not exactly easy to actually live by. God's Kingdom is for all of His children. God's Plan is His Plan and it will come to fruition. Don't we try to put God into a box and give it a kinds of "religious labels". God is a searcher of hearts and minds. Take Care, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Recent converts follow the time honored path of Islam.

MOUNT LAUREL, N.J. — At least five people were arrested on charges they plotted to attack the Fort Dix Army base and "kill as many soldiers as possible," federal authorities said Tuesday.

The suspects were scheduled to appear in U.S. District Court in Camden later Tuesday to face charges of conspiracy to kill U.S. servicemen, said Michael Drewniak, a spokesman for the U.S. Attorney's Office in New Jersey.

Five of them lived in Cherry Hill, about 10 miles east of Philadelphia and 20 miles southwest of Fort Dix, he said.

"They were planning an attack on Fort Dix in which they would kill as many soldiers as possible," Drewniak said.

The suspects were described as "Islamic radicals" by Greg Reinert, a spokesman for the United States Attorney's Office. A law enforcement source told FOX News that all of the suspects are recent converts and were not born Muslims.

The source told FOX News that there were between five and six arrests; the exact number is unclear.

Please see www.discussrace.com

Patel's article is dripping with sweetness in order to position Islam like it has some shared love for one another that is equal to other religions. Mohamed was not big on love one another as I have loved you. Who or what did Mohamed love except power and maybe 9 year old girls? Puppy love aside, just read the Hadith, read the Koran, and look at the actual actions of Mohamed and Islam. Puppy love is nice but in the character, words, and actions of Islam we see the real face of Islam and it is not Lisa. Nice try Patel but I am not buying it for one minute. I like you as a person and think you may be well intentioned but you can not put a happy face on something that is really pretty dark. Just be thankful, Patel, that you live in a country that has freedom of religion and separation of church and state. I just wish we had separation of Church and state and the real practice of and freedom of religion in Islamic nations. Then we could say we have some real shared values, shared Jeffersonian values. We share few values on a religious basis but that is OK as long as you can not practice violence against me for my beliefs.

"Peace and peace all is NOT an islamic greeting."

I suspect Victoria is an aging flower child.

now i know the point. other religions argue about if they are the true religion and seek to convert you by the force of their arguments.
islam argues for the right to kill you if you dont convert and then argues its their right to do so becsue their god says they can.
absurd.

You mean you are telling me, that once she drew that circle around her body and left her arms and whatever else outside the circle. He actually continued to date her?

I find that very very hard to believe. He claims to have "teenage hormones." Last time I checked if one girl was being a prude you move on to the next one during these "teenage hormone" years.

Unless, he had no game, and that was the best he could get. Granted it was reduced to holding hands probably in his basement. For the record MORMON women are UGLY. All that inbreeding is allowing them to compete against people in West Virginia.

VOTE: ((((((((((((((((((( Peace-Love-Rock-n-Roll Mitt-ROMNEY )))))))))))))) For: PREZ!

the islamic lies abound. moho asked for peace? what you really mean is that he demanded surrender and if they did not surrender he destroyed them. sort of like hitler asking for peace. but i spell it incorrectly. its piece - like hitler moho wanted a piece of this country and a piece of that country.
and since no one knew anything about islam until after the conversion of moho, it can not be said that they wanted to destroy a religion they did not even know about.
and the romans did not have to invade you fool, they were already there before moho was even born, as were the others you mention as if they invaded to attack moho.
you can get some uneducated desert dweller who has never seen a book other than the koran, and has only had islamics preach the hate of it to them for their entire live, to belive your lies, but in the rest of the world the truth is known. the best you can do is to claim the koran as the fount of all truth and therfore everyone not islamic is wrong.
but history, history written by your own islamic generals, who desired to show to each other how powerful they were, wrote about their attacks and murder.
and your understanding of the roman empire is lacking too. there was an eastern and western empire and both were roman, which split it up for the purpose of administration. but as islam attacked both it matters little which one you talk about.
and i dont understand your comments about ethiopia. iriginally the christian church had bishops in many places, all of which were taken by force by islamic armies. so what is your point?

Islam didn't start war with everyone. Muhammad sent diplomatic emissaries to Romans, Persian, Abyssinians, Yemenis, Copts, and others. Those who responded with peace recieved peace, namely the Yemeni and Abyssinian kingdoms. Those who responded with violence, like the Romans and Persian- like hte Roman king who killed the Muslim emissary and the Persian emperor who humiliated the other emissary- they stoked the fires of war.

The Romans formed armies to invade Arabia before Muhammad lifted a finger against them, it was by God's will that they did not succeed. It was the Roman legacy of violence and conquest which was their undoing. It was also that legacy which they passed to Western European kingdoms and empires. Its always noteworthy that European Christians always identified with the Roman empire, never with Christians from Abyssinia (Ethiopia) or elsewhere.

pagan its not what you find in those books that count, its what others find in them. in this case 1 billion + islamics who have taught from birth to hate anyone not islamic.
i would rather see your view prevail and no one following anything that anyone following the koran.
have you ever read mein pampf? i would trust that you would see thta as garbage and totally without merit, yet a hundred million germans thought it was great.
so you must see that it is not how you look at the books of a religion, its how those that follow that religion look at them. and with islam you start from a low point in human conduct. it has been quoted above more than once and need not be quoted again.
http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/pages/6-Mein%20Kampf_jpg_jpg_jpg.htm - "Mein Kampf, written by Adolf Hitler, is a best-seller in the Arab World. It is distributed by the Palestinian Authority headed by Yasser Arafat. Yasser Arafat became the disciple of Amin Al Husseini at the age of 17."
and keep this in mind, if you will. it is a tactic of islam to treat comments like mine as if they are absurd and no one actually sees islam as i protray it, but they are lying to the world. it my view of what islam stands for is so crazy, then why did islam start its war agaisnt everyone in 629 ad and why is it still continuing today, unabated, with the islamics acting exactly as i say they are?
i will be the first one to admit that christians have been involved in wars during the same period, and have even done so for the purpose of spreading their religion, but in so doing have violated the basics for being a christian.
we all thought that hitler was deserving of hell for his final solution, but this is exactly what islam has been doing for 1400 years, their own final solution, except it applies not just to jews but to everyone not islamic.
if you want to know what a radical islamic is - its one who rejects the hate and violence in the koran as a guiding principal of faith and their daily lives, and lives by what is left in the koran.

*waving* Well, Terra, it's not really what *I* find in any of these books that counts. Yeah, sure, there's stuff that's been used to say that people have every right to kill me, or do other things to me, or that it's a personal mercy not to, cause they believe they have every divine right to.

*All* these 'Religions of the Book' have their escape clauses written in so people can say it's divinely-commanded they kill whoever's convenient, even as they say it's in the name of some absolute morality.

Heard it from Muslims I've talked to, too.

It's there. I figure it maybe shouldn't be, but no illusions, here. They've all got stuff like that. Most of that Kuranic tolerance stuff is explicitly directed toward Christians and Jews, and some folks don't pay attention to that, anyway.

Just like anyone else who thinks they have a divine rulebook, and that you must, too.

It really comes down to *people* and their *choices* and what *happens* when you do stuff, but try telling that to *anyone* who thinks their brand of authority is the Ultimate Answer. It makes tyranny *too easy.* But that doesn't mean it's what everyone with one brand or another of Ultimate Rules actually *chooses* to do.

On one hand, I don't like seeing xenophobes putting words in the mouths of peoples of one religion or another: at the same time, I think people in *all* these book religions ought to put some words in their *own* mouths when folks start quoting stuff like that.

Cause they do.

Whether it's a redneck Bible-beater or whoever the heck the likes of Bin Laden think they're really speaking for... People do quote these books these ways, act on it more than most want to admit, and too many followers of these religions don't seem quite ready yet to *stand up and repudiate* such tactics.

Or the words.

Maybe no one's ready to disarm in some Holy Cold War.

But in the meantime,
It brings grief.
Always has.

And it stands to bring a lot more.

No illusions about history, here, and in some ways, who cares who's a better at justifing whose past injustices and atrocities.

It's over when *we.* The people of this Earth, *say* it's over.

And do the work. I think Mr. Patel is doing some of it. We'll see how people use it.

Cause all these senseless horrors... All the bloody vitriol and polarization, the rampant abuse and deception and willful cognitive dissonance embraced by certain types... The sheer *rudeness and crudeness* not to mention kids of the literalist going postal in Beirut or Virginia...

These are all signs of a dying culture. And the dying part isn't Christianity or Islam or capitalism or democracy or anything like that.

The dying part is our old, revealed-textual-literalist, legalistic, property-based, balkanized, isolationist, peace-through-conquest-or-attrition sort of world.

But it's dying. In some cases trying to take as many people and things of beauty with it as possible, but dying.

Maybe they'll try and stage another Apocalypse, and when all the drama's done, go, 'Crap, all we did was lose indoor plumbing. Again. Hope you like turnips.'

Holy wars in whatever form may sound pretty glorious compared to, say, the 80's, when the 'end of the world' was nigh, and yes, when it happens, the general idea was it's going to be utterly stupid and random and at least it'll probably be over quickly.

It happens in times of great historical stress, especially when they have no clear resolution.

When the world's always about to end, it does its own damage, but at least it spares you thinking too much about the quiet little personal deaths we all must face.

Some maybe can't settle for less than a Grand Cosmic War to explain things... And most are maybe too fatigued to really question *them.*

When dawn comes, it won't be cause some 'side' 'won.' It'll just be another time folks look back at while bored in some class and say, 'God/s, I'm glad we don't live *then.* But wouldn't it be interesting...'

And hopefully... go on and do good things with that much less fear, that much less hate, that much less privation.

The part of culture that's dying, ..isn't hard to see. Look what people get rude and irrational about.

What replaces it is up to *us* and the net generation.

What it is written in the article is NOT islamic.What it is said in the 'tale' is absolutely against islam.

First,in islamic order,a girl can not visit a man basement.This is a wrong and should be punished with jail.

Second,in islamic order,girls and boys can not be educated in mix classes.Harem(women,girls) and Salam(men,boys) must be in different classes,even different schools.

Third,according to islam,mormon is a infidel.A true believer muslim,that means brainwashed robot who worships in arabic language 150 times in a month,can not have infidel friends.Quran 5.51

I(Allah) will cast FEAR into the hearts of those who disbelieve(for example a mormon).Therefore strike off their heads.Quran 8.12
and Fight them(non-muslim) until persecution(for example mormonism is a persecution) is no more and religion is for Allah(that means only islam) 8.39

Peace and peace all is NOT an islamic greeting.
If you live in 'Land of War'(Dar al Harb) country,for example USA,peace is not possible.You must strive hard against the unbelievers(non-muslims).

Mormonism will slowly fade from society as will contemporary Christianity, Judaism and Islam because of the obvious problems with the founders of these religions especially their angelic/satanic hallucinations and related prophecies. "Pretty and ugly wingie thingies" simply do/did not exist. Associating the Singularity with these mythical assistants and opponents mocks the concept of God the Almighty.

The Good Word was articulated by the ancients using reasoning and common sense. These Words of Wisdom were simply repeated with each major race and religion. Unfortunately the Words were attibuted to embellished men in most cases as a means of profiteering as noted by the contemporary billions of dollars owned and controlled by the Mormon, Christian, Jewish and Moslem religions. It is time they give us our money back.

paganplace- good one-

jacob- fly on little wing

mr patel, as always im touched by yor self effacement-
few of us have the courage to put in print the foibles of our youth- it sas alot about you that you can offer us tis lovel litte slceof life-
as alwas, you find a way to transcend the division by incorporating harmony and accord with those of like hearts (like you and lisa i mean).

really, i never leave reading your posts without coming away edified.

oten ill come and repost and not reread the actual text of the panelist more than intially, but i always read yours over again.

its a testament to good writing and having something of value to ponder-

i also appreciate how you dont find it necessary to soft pedal something you dont believe-
you give your fellow muslims strength to carry on with open minds and tolerant hearts

peace and peace all

paganplace- actually, youre not going to be able to find reasons to hate christians or jews in the quran-
but i dnt want t get into that now, theres plenty of time and the afterglow is so nice in here

dear boo - i am very much moved that you fail to adderss the vile conduct of islam. what is your wife under islam? and your children? are they islamic or not? and if they do not accept islam will islam call them on it? if i remember correctly islam takes a dim view of abandoning islam. but you will not condmen that either.

Mr. Patel,

Excellent article - I was very moved by your experience, and by Lisa's great example. If only all interfaith discussions went this way. Growing up as a Mormon (and still very much an active Mormon) I had similar experiences with my Jewish friends. Most of my high school chums were Jewish, and we would talk about religion a lot (talk, not argue). I learned a lot from them, and they from me, and we respected each other's perspectives.

I realize now that our rapport was greatly helped by the fact that nobody in the Mormon church was teaching anything negative about the Jewish faith, and nobody at my friend's synagogues was teaching anything negative about the Mormons.

If you go into a Mormon chapel, you won't hear critical things about other churches. Similarly, if you go into a Mormon bookstore, you won't find books that criticize other churches. You will find a few books about other churches, but they are written by actual representatives of those churches, not by critics. As a matter of policy, the Mormon church doesn't try to tear down anybody else's faith. As Gordon B. Hinckley, the current President of the church, said in a recent talk, "Bring your truth, and let us see if we can add to it."

as they say in the criminal justice system - i never met a con man i did not like. and boo boy speaks with a forked tongue, but he is pretty when he says it.

That was a great post. In one moment I wanted to scream at the stereotypical description of Lisa. And in other moments, I wanted to cheer for her as she is described as a determined woman, with goals and ambitions.

Your post, Mr. Patel, makes me wonder what good people like yourself think of the ban on inter-faith marriages in the Mormon church and how it affects the mainstreaming ambition of the church?

Now, so we dont get a bunch of folks trying to untwist their hanky pankies on here to say that Mormons do not ban inter-faith marriages, allow me to explain.

Sure, a Mormon can marry a muslim or jew. However, they cannot be married in the Temple. And, the Mormon in that marriage will not be able to be sealed in an eternal marriage to the person of another faith. And more, it is the doctrine of the church that after death, the non-Mormon will be baptized (by proxy), men are given the priesthood (by proxy) and married to the Mormon (by proxy.) If the non-Mormon, in this spirit world, elects to accept all those proxy events, then the Mormon will be married to the newly converted Mormon and they can be a family and become a God and Goddess.

If the Non-Mormon rejects the spirit world baptism, then the Mormon will be given to another person to marry. For women, they may be one of many wives given to one dude.

So, it is possible to be married to a non-mormon, but, it is very uncomfortable for the Mormon and it effectively diminishes the eternal opportunities for the couple, which, effectively reduces the value of the relationship on earth. Me personally, I tend to favor the earth part of a marriage and would suggest maximizing the earthy part of it.

yes i see the responses are personal attacks but not one word of the truth of the violence of islam, or maybe you wish to deny truth.
do you think the entire world is populated by fools who believe your lies, or that to obtain your friendship the world will shut their eyes to the evil of islam? what good is the word and friendship of a con man, except as it does good for the con man.
and i never said i was a jew or a christian or a hindu or even an indian, or athiest. and i have said more than once that the belief is not what i object to, it is islams practiced dedication of murder to spread islam. and then there is your double standard.
you steel the property of others and then complain if they take it back, saying that they stole it from you. as if a thief ever gets good title.
and yes despite all this - not one word from islam rejecting hate, torture, murder or forced conversions.
i am amused that something so vile as the evil of islam would complain that their feeling were hurt.

Mr. Patel,

Thank you for a generous but yet so typical example of what it is like to be influenced by the faith and devotion of a true Christian believer.

Although you chose (probably wisely given the nature of the obvious antagonism in this blog) to not explain "the rest of the story" between you and Lisa, my respect and best wishes go out to you. Your own humility and respect for her is the highest compliment you could ever give her.

And all that I can say is thank you.

Anonymous and other haters of Islam,

Remove the log from thine own eye before finding fault with the splinter in thy neighbor's eye.

Are you Christians? If so, please consider Jesus' words. Judge not lest ye be judged.

Chuck

As a good Jew, I say that whatever bad name given to Islam, we have a hand in it, the Jewish paople. If Islam was made by us to bring down Christianity 1500 years ago and then turned against us after Mohamed changed course, it is our creation and we have to admit that. In every scripture, Jewish and Christian, there are horrible violence and terror that shaped the Jeudio-christian faith for so many centuries (look at the Crusades, modern Imperialism, Zionism and Israel).

By the way, enough scaring others of being Anti-semite while we terrorizing them- enough that kind of intimidation.

Anon
What you see in yourself, you see in others. You must first trust yourself before you can trust another. Try not to paint everyone with the same tar brush.
Still, I bid you peace.
Ahmed

I really love this post. I can vividly identify with every detail of the account. It reminds me of my first LDS girlfriend after I joined the Church, except that I was the 19-year-old convert who was keeping her in line (not transgressing the boundaries of chastity), as I did with other LDS girls before my mission, while their physical desires started to get a little out of hand. Fortunately, I suppose, I was a very shy and innocent Protestant before my conversion, and that carried over to my life as a Mormon convert with even greater magnification. Untested innocence is inferior to proven purity in the face of temptation, though, and I did finally slip after a few years of continued single life and dating of non-Mormons—especially East Asians.

My first LDS girlfriend and I shared a deep, mutual understanding and an unconditional acceptance, feeling exactly what each other were feeling at any moment without any need to express anything in words. We were really one in heart and mind, and my physical desires never got out of hand with her or any other member of the Church until I remained single at the age of 32, by which time those standards became impossible to maintain. We admired and adored each other, and somehow felt unworthy of each other. Because my girlfriend had been raped as a 7-year-old girl and had her vulva viciously torn up in the process, she would never have been able or willing to have coitus, and I was willing to sacrifice that part of married life if necessary, because she was my Beshert. We felt as though we had known each other long before we were born, which is a unique belief among Mormons in the Western world but of course common in Buddhism and Hinduism.

I went to see “Passion of the Christ” with a Muslim girl from Tajikistan, and we spoke about the movie and our admiration for each other’s devote faith and feelings toward G-d. I’m sure she would have made a great wife, but I wouldn’t want to marry outside the temple—or as we say in the Church, outside the Abrahamic Covenant, even though she’s technically a descendant of Abraham.

As a Canadian, most of my friends were Muslim and Hindu as I was growing up, but I must admit that contrary to what one respondent mentioned, Mormons are more partial toward Judaism, and we seem to identify ourselves more closely with Jews than with “other” Christians. Officially, though, the Church has no partiality, and the Islamic Studies department of BYU, or at least the Maxwell Institute, is very strong and highly respected. I just have trouble embracing Islam with the same respect and love that I did in my youth, as I should now. Having gone to a predominantly Jewish high school, I can’t rid myself (and wouldn’t want to) of the strong bond that I feel toward the Jewish people and my desire to delve deeper into Judaic Studies and Biblical Hebrew.

It’s unfortunate that Zionism has evoked the wrath of Muslim neighbors in the Middle East, especially after Muslim tolerance toward peaceful non-Zionist Jewish neighbors within Jerusalem lasted for several centuries, but the change in dynamics is somewhat understandable from a purely objective standpoint, and it was not entirely unprovoked. Now, anti-Zionism is much more inseparable from anti-Semitism. Yes, I know that Arabs are Semites as well, but I’m using the common American vernacular, however incorrect it may be.

John, you are either ignorant, or just plain stupid. Do some reading, for your sake. You sound like a seventh grader. Anonymous is correct in all he has posted.

if you are islamic that means you follow the koran and until you publically reject those verses that i noted above, then you do not come in peace. you come as a wolf in sheeps clothing, biding your time until you are ready to strike. people like you hold your tongues and on them, like honey, drips sweet lies, which make others think islam is innocent.
when islam rejects its vulgar verses then i will accept islamics as frineds, until then i would sooner sleep with vipers and at least a viper never tries to convenience you it is a dove.
you are like the ss under hitler, you smile, pretend, you are friendly, and when you get what you want, like hitler did, the viper appears and death follows.
so it has been since the begining of islam and is this very day and has been in all times in between.
i dont like nazi's or skin heads, or kkk ers, or the ilk, and i tell them as i tell you, we are not one, we are enemies and will remain so until islam is no more.
i leave you with a photo album, a picture is worth a thousand words. it is islam at its finest for the 20th century. http://www.tellthechildrenthetruth.com/gallery/

I am surprised that the Indian gentleman thinks that Hinduism is the ancient religion of India. It isn't. Actually, the real Aryans brought Hinduism to India subjugating the darker and more peaceful Dravidians who were pushed to the South. It's all in the history books. Read for yourself. How is that for a racist start?

It's a long story. Everyone has dirty laundry, which should not be aired in public.

Anon

Wow, so much you have to say and keep cut & pasting here. Best to put this energy to a good use, like helping fellow humans. AND NO, i do not wish any ill for you or anyone else.

I come to you in peace but you seem to have labels for everyone and everything. Remember those labels are in your bag, not mine.

You are free to do what you wish but please try respecting others before you expect them to respect you. That would be a good start.

I do not wish to enter into historical debate as it serves no one. Besides you have made up your mind anyway. Suffice to say that you and I are ONE. One day, perhaps not in this life if you choose to carry on like that, you will see the truth in that.

Cheers.

so boo what are you going to do now? going to condemn islam then and now. so lets see - i showed islam starting killing around 629 ad i also showed a religious war up to the crusades in the west, but in the east, islam kept up the murder and torture and rape. i can post even more about poor india at the hands of islam. and all under the direct command of the koran.
and lets not forget wht they did in the 20th century and what they are doing in the 21st century.
sort or hard to blamd someone else other than islam and their koranic demand for hate murder and torture, rape, slavery [still practiced in africia by islamics] kidnapping, and forced conversions plus new attempts to wipe out other religions.
there is no doubt islam is evil and boo - you are to unless you concdemn them.

Anonymous-Ignoramus, your data, names. information, evidence, dates, stories are all wrong or made up by your hateful brain (it's puke inside your skull). Your name should be Ignoramus. Your beliefs are filth. Take it back into your stomach. You just hate Christians Buddhists, Hindus, and Muslims. I'm sure you hate your own people of your religion who don't share your puke meal.

Mahmud of Gaznavi
(From the accounts of arikh-i-Yamini of Utbi the secretary of Mahmud of Gaznavi)

At Thaneshwar.
"The blood of the infidels flowed so copiously at Thanesar that the stream was discolored, not withstanding its purity, and people were unable to drink it. The Sultan returned with plunder which is impossible to count. Praise be to Allah for the honor he bestows on Islam and Muslims."

At Somnath
"The Muslims paid no regard to the booty till they had satiated themselves with the slaughter of the infidels and worshipers of sun and fire.... The number of infidels killed exceeded 50,000"

At Mathura
"The infidels...deserted the fort and tried to cross the foaming river...but many of them were slain, taken or drowned... Nearly fifty thousand men were killed."

Mahmud of Ghori
(from Hasan Nizami's Taj-ul-Maasir)
Kol (Modern Aligarh)
"Those of the horizon who were wise and acute were converted to Islam, but those who stood by their ancestoral faith were slain with the sword"

Kol (Modern Aligarh)

20,000 prisoners were taken and made slaves
'Three bastions were raised as high as heaven with their heads and their carcases became food for the beasts of prey

Kalinjar
50,000 prisoners were taken as slaves
Varnasi or Kasi (Benaras) :
Kamil-ut-Tawarikh of Ibn Asir records,
"The slaughter of Hindus (at Varanasi) was immense; none were spared except women and children,(who were taken into slavery) and the carnage of men went on until the earth was weary."

Zahiru'd-Din Muhammed Babur (1526 C.E. - 1520 C.E.)
Babur's Own Words on Killing Hindus:
For the sake of Islam I became a wanderer,
I battled infidels and Hindus,
I determined to become a maryr
Thank God I became a Killer of Non-Muslims!

From Baburnama, the Memoires of Babur Himself:
In AH 934 (2538 C.E.) I attacked Chanderi and by the grace of Allah captured it in a few hours. We got the infidels slaughtered and the place which had be Daru'l-Harb (nation of non-muslim) for years was made into a Daru'l-Islam (muslim nation).

Guru Nanak on Babur's atrocities:
Source:Rag Asa Guru Nanak Dev witnessed first hand the atrocities Babur committed on Hindus and recorded them in his poems. He says: Having attacked Khuraasaan, Babar terrified Hindustan. The Creator Himself does not take the blame, but has sent the Mugal as the messenger of death. There was so much slaughter that the people screamed. Didn't You feel compassion, Lord? pg (360)

On the condition of Hindu women in Babur's monster rule:
Those heads adorned with braided hair, with their parts painted with vermillion - those heads were shaved with scissors, and their throats were choked with dust.They lived in palatial mansions, but now, they cannot even sit near the palaces.... ropes were put around their necks, and their strings of pearls were broken. Their wealth and youthful beauty, which gave them so much pleasure, have now become their enemies. The order was given to the soldiers, who dishonored them, and carried them away. If it is pleasing to God's Will, He bestows greatness; if is pleases His Will, He bestows punishment pg(417-18)

On the nature of Mughal rule under Babur:
First, the tree puts down its roots, and then it spreads out its shade above. The kings are tigers, and their officials are dogs; they go out and awaken the sleeping people to harass them. The public servants inflict wounds with their nails. The dogs lick up the blood that is spilled. Source:Rag Malar, (pg.1288)

From an article by Dr. Harsh Narain on Muslim Testimony (Indian Express 2/26/90):
Since the establishment of Zahiru'd-Din Ghazi's rule, officers and religious leaders spread Islam vigorously desteroying the Hindu faith. We cleared the filth of Hinduism from Faizabad and Avadh.

Sultan Firuz Shah Tughlaq
(from Insha-i-Mahry by Amud Din Abdullah bin Mahru)
Delhi: -a punishment in detail (from Tarikh-i-Firuz Shahi)

"A report was brought to the Sultan than there was in Delhi an old Brahman who persisted in publicly performing the worship of idols in his house and that people of the city, both Muslims and Hindus used to resort to his house to worship the idol. The Brahman had constructed a wooden tablet which was covered within and without with paintings of demons and other objects. An order was accordingly given to the Brahman and was brought before Sultan.The true faith was declared to the Brahman and the right course pointed out. but he refused to accept it. A pile was risen on which the Kaffir with his hands and legs tied was thrown into and the wooden tablet on the top. The pile was lit at two places his head and his feet. The fire first reached him in the feet and drew from him a cry and then fire completley enveloped him. Behold Sultan for his strict adherence to law and rectitude."

Delhi : (after Hindus paid the toleration tax (zar-i zimmiya) and poll-tax(jizya) they were foolish enough to build their temples.so...) "Under divine guidance I (Sultan) destroyed these temples and I killed the leaders of these infedility and others I subjected to stripes and chastisement "

Gohana (Haryana):
"Some Hindus had erected a new idol-temple in the village of Kohana and the idolaters used to assemble there and perform their idolatrous rites. These people were seized and brought before me. I ordered that the perverse conduct of these leaders of this wickedness be punished by publicly abd that they should be put to deathe before the gate of the palace."

Jajnagar:(Expedition objectives as stated by Sultan: Source:Ainn-ul-Mulk)

massacring the unbelievers

demolishing their temples

hunting the elephants

getting a glimpse of their enchanting country

Orissa:'Sirat-i-Firoz Shahi' records his expedition with the following words:
"Nearly 100,000 men of Jajnagar had taken refuge with their women, children, kinsmen and relations The swordsmen of Islam turned the island into a basin of blood by the massacre of the unbelievers. Women with babies and pregnant ladies were haltered, manacled, fettered and enchained, and pressed as slaves into service in the house of every soldier."
The Jihads of Shihabuddin,
the Sultankalka of Ghur

Around 1140, the Islamized Turko-Mongol chiefs of the Shansabanid tribe occupied Ghor in Afghanistan. Initially it was a vassal of the Ghaznavid Sultans, but around 1130 it came into conflict with them, after one of the leading Shansabanid nobles was murdered by the Ghaznavid Sultan, Bahram. A ferocious war ensued between the Sultans of Ghor and Ghazni, till Alla-ud-din Ghori invaded Ghazni with his entire cavalry and wrested it from Bahram. Alla-ud-din sacked the Indian spoils that Mahmud had placed there, massacred the city's population in a 7-day killing spree and subsequently burnt it down. The next Ghaznavid Sultan, Khushro Maliq was driven out of Afghanistan by a coalition of Oghuz Turks and the Ghorids in 1157, and the Oghuz took Ghazni. The sons of Alla-ud-din, Ghiyas-ud-din Mu'azz-ud-din Ghori and Shihab-ud-din Muhammad Ghori defeated the Oghuz and annexed Ghazni in 1174. Ghiyas-ud-din, crowned himself Sultan, and appointed his brother Sultankalka. Shihab-ud-din was assigned the task of extending the kingdom to the East and he naturally gravitated towards India. 13 bloody campaigns that ravaged Northern India followed:

• Early in 1175 he invaded Punjab and sacked and burned Uch...(1)

• In 1178 he advanced south and marched towards Gujarat, but here the Indians acted quickly and rallying under the western chAlukya king MUlarAja II routed the Islamic forces completely forcing him to retreat...(2)

• In 1179 Ghori sent a message to PrithivirAja chAhamAna to make common cause with him against the Chalukyas. Prithivaraj however, wise disregarding his foolish minister, kadambavAsa's advise to make a common cause with Ghori, preemptively attacked NaDDula and reconquered it from the Moslems.

• Shihab recovered in 1180 and invaded Sindh and ravaged the population carrying away much loot...(3)

• Then Shihabuddin Muhammad, quickly followed it up in 1181 and 1184 with two invasions of Lavapura (Lahore) accompanied with much slaughter...(4+5)

• In 1186 he invaded the Ghaznavid occupied Punjab and defeated the Sultan Khushro Maliq and wrested Punjab...(6)

• 1188 The Ghur Sultankalka invaded the ChAhamAna kingdom and sacked the fort of Tabarhindah killing the Hindu male populace and raping the women. Hindu refugees flocked around Delhi alarming the ChAhamAnas...(7)

• 1191 PrithivirAj advanced to meet Shihabuddin's raid and routed him in the great battle of Tarai. While the Muslims suffered a crushing defeat, the Indians failed to butcher them to man and allowed Shihab to get away unharmed. He fled back to Central Asia leaving Punjab completely undefended...(8)

• 1191 PrithivirAj attacked Tabarhindah and took it back from the Muslims. Here the biggest mistake of the Hindus was not to reconquer and arm Punjab suitably.

• 1192 Shihab returned and sacked Tabarhindah again. This was followed by the second battle of Tarai, the ChAhamAna army was crushed and Prithiviraj was captured and brutally tortured to death...(9)

• 1192 the Ghur Sultankalka made a second trust towards Ajayamerupura (Ajmer) and sacked it smashing Hindu temples and a Hindu university in course of this invasion. The Hindus captured in this expedition caused slave prices to fall to a few Dirhams in the Muslim markets...(10)

• 1193 The sultankalka invaded Kannauj and slew the GAhadwala king Jayachandra. He followed this up with an invasion of vArANsipura slaughtering Hindus with great savagery and desecrating the holy city...(11+12)

After this, his viceroy Kutub-ud-din (also his lover?) and the Turkish adventurer Ikhtiyaruddin Khalji furthered the violence of Islam in the land of Hind. Meanwhile Shihab's brother died in Ghazna and he crowned himself Sultan and immediately launched himself into another Jihad on the infidels of Hindustan in 1206. The exact course of this campaign is not clear. While on the North-western reaches of the Sindhu, he was ambushed by the Khokar chiefs and shot down by an arrow...(13). Thus ended the carrier of the Moslem brigand who brought misery to the whole of northern India through his 13 invasions
The Jihads of
Alla-ud-din Khalji

The one time when it appeared that the sanAtana dharma might vanish off the face of bhArata was during the ferocious jihads of Alla-ud-din of the Khalji tribe. The Khaljis entered India from Ghazna during the reign of the Mamluq Sultan Qutub-ud-din Aibak. The first of them to make his mark Bakhtiyar Khalji, whose savage jihad in Bihar and destruction of the Indian centers of learning like Nalanda is only well known. Jalal-ud-din Khalji, another member of this tribe, was accepted as the Sultan of Delhi by a confederation of Turkic tribes, after the collapse of the Mamluq Balban's regime. Jalal opened his innings by consolidating the Turkic regime in India by suppressing other competing Maliqs and appointed his nephew, Alla-ud-din to expand his domains. We shall briefly consider his campaigns:

• In 1291 he was sent to destroy the remaining Kaffirs of Bhilsa in Central India. Il-tut-mish, the Mamluq had earlier desecrated this Hindu-Buddhist temple-university complex but it had fallen away from Islamic control. Alla invaded and conquered Bhilsa and total exterminated the Kaffirs and left behind a ghost city whose long lost temple remnants can be seen even today.

• 1292 He attacked the Vidisha in Central India, a great center of learning and destroyed it completely and slew the inhabitants.

• 1292 His spies got him the news of the great wealth of the yAdava dynasty of mahArashTra and Alla promptly invaded it and carried away a large amount of loot.

• 1295 In a remarkable campaign Alla carried the war right to Devagiri the heart of the yAdava kingdom. He demolished and looted all the temples in Devagiri.

• In 1296 with this loot Alla bought most of the Khalji army and murdered his uncle Jalal and drove away his aunt and cousin and declared himself Sultan of Hind. Jaziya was imposed on the Kaffirs.

• 1296. Latter in the year he joined the Southern Alliance of the Chagadai Ulus (predominantly Turkic tribes) against the Northern Alliance (predominantly Mongolic) and routed the latter in a battle at Jallandar securing the Panjab for himself.

• In 1297 he invaded Gujarat and destroyed the ancient Surya temples at Mehsana and subjugated the Hindus of the land with much slaughter. The rAja of Gujarat fled to Devagiri and the Hindu kings tried to fight back under shankara yAdava. Alla sent Ulugh Khan and Nusrat Khan against them, who defeated the yAdavas and the Gujarat king. They captured and castrated a Hindu youth who was name Maliq Kaffr and presented him to Alla, who took him as his lover.

• 1298 He sent his fiercest il-ghazi, Zafar Khan, to wage a jihad against the pagan Northern Alliance chief Suldus who was sent by Chagadai Kha'Khan Duwa. The battle concluded in a draw after fierce fighting.

• 1298 Later in the year he battled against Qutulugh Khawaja, a son of Duwa, of the Northern Alliance, the results were inconclusive

• 1299 Qutulugh Khawaja reached the doors of Delhi with a large horde. Alla's il-ghazi's Zafar Khan, Ulugh Khan and Nusrat Khan defeated Qutulugh Khawaja, but Zafar Khan was shot dead by an arrow in this battle.

• 1299 Ulugh Khan was sent to quell the Hindu resistance in Gujarat. He conquered the fort of Junagad and demolished all the temples in the surrounding regions and then went on to attack Somnath and destroy the great temple that the Hindus had rebuilt.

• 1299. Hammira Deva of the Ranthambhor defeated Alla as he attempted to sack the Rajput stronghold.

• 1301. Alla returned with his entire force to sack Ranthambhor. He succeeded and slew Hammira Deva. He conducted a massive temple demolition operation destroying all the temples of Jhain and Sawai Madhopur and slew the inhabitants.

• 1303. Chittor alone that had held out against the Muslims, attracted Khalji's attention due to its beautiful queen Padmini. Khalji sacked and burned Chittor after slaying Rana Rattan Singh.

• 1303. Turghai and Ali Beg of the Northern Alliance wrested the Punjab from Alla and invaded Sindh. They blockaded Delhi itself for two months but retreated due to the summer heat.

• 1304. Jihad was launched on Ujjaini. This ancient center of Indian learning was destroyed completely. Chanderi was attacked next by Alla and the ancient temples were demolished.

• 1305. Malwa and Mandu were savaged and the inhabitants slaughtered.

• 1306. Then Turghai and Ali Beg defeated Khalji's army and captured Lahore and Amroha near Delhi. Tughlaq Khan, a general of Alla, counter-attacked defeated and captured 9000 Pagan Turko-Mongols of the Northern Alliance. He had them all trampled to death by elephants for refusing to accept Islam.

• 1308. Qebek (another son of Chagadai ruler, Duwa) and Ibaqmand of the Northern Alliance struck back captured Multan. But Alla defeated them on their way back and again slaughtered all the pagan prisoners he took.

• 1308. Later in the year, the Rajputs regrouped in Sivana and declared independence but Alla smashed them in a lightning campaign and destroyed the temples in the region.

• 1309. He sent Maliq Kaffr against Devagiri that was attempting to reassert itself. Maliq Kaffr defeated the yAdavas and penetrated the Hoysala kingdom.

• 1310 Maliq Kaffr destroyed Dwarasamudra after a fierce battle and ended the Hindu Hoysala rule over those regions.

• 1311 Maliq Kaffr devastated Telengana and destroyed the temples of Warangal. He then invaded Madhurai and destroyed the Pandyan kingdom. The temples of Madhurai and Chidambaram were destroyed. Kaffr returned with enormous amounts of gold looted from the destroyed temples.

• 1311 Alla invaded Jalor to destroy the Rajput fight back and massacred the Hindu population while destroying the city.

• 1313 Devagiri made another attempt to defy the Muslim terror, Alla personally invaded mahArashTra to ravage the Devagiri kingdom.

• 1314 Alla more or less became a puppet in the hand of his lover Kaffr and subsequently died in 1316.

• 1316 Death.

Thereafter, Maliq Kaffr killed all the members of the Khalji tribe except for Qutbuddin Mubarak, Alla's last son, and ruled in his name. Kaffr was murdered by the Turkish chiefs of the Southern Alliance and Mubarak ascended the throne. In 1318 Qutbuddin Mubarak invaded Devagiri again as its ruler Haripala Deva had cast off the Muslim yoke. Haripala faced a massive defeat and was captured. He was skinned alive and his head and skin were placed on display at the entrance to the Devagiri fort. Thus ended the yAdava dynasty and Hindu sovereignty in mahArashTra. Mubarak's lover Khusru murdered him and made himself Sultan. Amir Qazaghan of the Qara'Unas tribe, from Konduz, became the lord of the Southern Alliance and sent his commander al Ghazi al Maliq Tughlaq to seize the throne of Delhi after murdering Khusru.

Sources: Histoire des Mongols D'Ohsson.; Hafiz-i-Abru, trns Byani (Paris 1936). Tazjiyat-al-amsar va tajriyat of Wassaf; A Forgotten Empire : Vijayanagar : A Contribution to the history of India", Robert Sewell
Aurangazeb (1658 C.E. - 1707 C.E.)
Aurangzeb considered himself "The Scourge Of The Kafirs" (non-believers) and closed Hindu schools and libraries. In his lifetime he destroyed more than 10,000 Hindu, Buddhist and Jam temples and often erected mosques in their stead.3 In 1669 in Agra he had hacked off the limbs of the recalcitrant Hindu King Gokla and in 1672 several thousand revolting Hindus were slaughtered in Mewat.

From: Maasi-i-Alamgiri

Issued general order to destroy all centers of Hindu learnings including Varnasi and destroyed the temple at Mathura and renamed it as Islamabad
In Khandela (rajastan) he killed 300 Hindus in one day for they resisted the destruction of their temple.
In Udaipur all Hindus of the town were killed as they vowed to defend the temple of Udaipur from destruction.
172 temples were destroyed in Udaipur.
66 temples were pulled down in Amber. All Hindu clerks were dismissed from the office of the Imperial empire.
In Pandhpur , Maharashtra, the Emperor ordered and executed the destruction of temple and butchering of cows within the temple.
Aurangazeb also tortured to death the disciples of Guru Tegh bahadur before his death and also killed Guru. Guru Tegh Bahadur - the pride of Hindustan was martyred for he spoke for the persecuted Hindus of Hindustan. Aurangazeb also killed Guru Gobind singh's two children aged less than ten by walling them alive for not accepting the choice of Islam. In Punjab Muslim governors killed hundreds of Sikh children and made Sikh women eat the flesh of their own killed children. Banda Bahadur another great Sikh martyr before being torturd to death was also made to eat the flesh of his own children killed before his eyes. Any Muslim bringing the head of a dead Sikh was also awarded money

Jahangir (1605 C.E. - 1628 C.E.)
Source: Tuzuk-i-Jahangiri
Though in the beginning of his rule Jahangir followed the humanistic rule of his father Akbar the great -the policy of sulehkul even issued a proclamation against the forcible conversion of Hindus to Islam, he revoked Akbar's orders that those who have been forcibly converted from Islam could return to Hinduism. He severely punished Kaukab, Sharif and Abdul Latif for showing inclination to Hinduism. He also prohibited the free inter-marriage customs between Hindus and Muslims in Kashmir. Hindus marrying Muslim girls and those who had already married were given a hoice between Islam and death. Many were killed.

Jahangir's torture of Guru Arjun Dev ji: Guru was imprisoned at Lahore fort. He was chained to a post in an open place exposed to the sun from morning to evening in the summer months of May to June. Below his feet a heap of sand was put which burnt like a furnace. Boiling water was poured on his naked body at intervals. His body was covered with blisters all over. In this agony Guru used to utter.

Tera Kiya Metha lage, naam padarath Nanak mange(whatever you ordain appears sweet. I supplicate for the gift of name)

The Guru was ordercd to be executed. In addition a fine of Rupees two lakhs was imposed on him. Some historians say that, as a measure of clemency at the intervention of Mian Mir, this fine was imposed in lieu of the sentence of death. The Sikhs offered to pay the fine themselves but the Guru forbade them to do so. He replied to the Emperor, "Whatever money I have is for the poor, the friendless and the stranger. If thou ask for money thou mayest take what I have; but if thou ask for it by way of fine, I shall not give thee even a Kaurz (penny)." The Guru accepted death by torture
Shah Jahan (1658 C.E. - 1707 C.E.)
In 1632 Shah jahan ordered that all Hindu temples recently erected or in the course of construction should be razed to the ground. In Benares alone seventy six temples were destroyed. Christian churches at Agra and Lahore were demolished. In a manner befitting the Prophet he had ten thousand inhabitants executed by being "blown up with powder, drowned in water or burnt by fire". Four thousand were taken captive to Agra where they were tortured to try to convert them to Islam. Only a few apostacised, the remainder were trampled to death by elephants, except for the younger women who went to harems.

Shahjahan put enormous eonomic pressure on Hindus particularly peasents to become Muslims. The criminals too were forced to become Muslims.

Source: Badshah Nama, Qazinivi & Badshah Nama , Lahori

When Shuja was appointed as governor of Kabul he carried on a ruthless war in the Hindu territory beyond Indus...The sword of Islam yielded a rich crop of converts....Most of the women (to save their honour) burnt themselves to death. Those captured were distributed among Muslim Mansabdars.

Source: Manucci, Storia do Mogor vol-II p.451 & Travels of Frey Sebastian Manrique

Under Shahjahan peasents were compelled to sell their women and children to meet their revenue requirements....The peasents were carried off to various Markets and fairs to be sold with their poor unhappy wives carrying their small children crying and lamenting. According to Qaznivi Shahjagan had decreed they should be sold to Muslim lords

from the hindu holocaust memorial:
For more than two millennia, India has suffered one bloody invasion after another, leaving a Holocaust of millions of lives and a civilization and culture left in near ruins. Through it all, India is the only one of the great ancient civilizations that has survived today. Hinduism is the most ancient and only continuously surviving religion and culture that has successfully maintained itself while so many other cultures and civilizations have vanished. No other ancient civilization has retained its ancient religion and culture under the onslaught of the western Abrahamic monotheist religions.

The first of the major invasions came from Alexander of Macedonia. His invasion of India was intended to bring Greek culture to India and to encourage cultural exchange between the Indic and Hellenic worlds. This invasion was mild compared to the savage invasions of Islam, which continue even today, attempting to decimate the Indian religions of Dharma and the Culture of Bhaaratvarsha (India). The contemporary French writer François Gautier has said, "The massacres perpetuated by Muslims in India are unparalleled in history, bigger than the Holocaust of the Jews by the Nazis; or the massacre of the Armenians by the Turks; more extensive even than the slaughter of the South American native populations by the invading Spanish and Portuguese."
but there is more.

ok i have been looking at our resident peaceful islamic eboo.
i see some articles and pictures of happy islamics holding hands. you know what is missing?
an absolute statement that he will no longer follow that part of the koran that concerns forced conversions. not once have i found that, has anyone else.
i have not seen one comment where he says that the pals, hamas, hesbula, etc are wrong to blow up women and children in icecream parlors or paizza parlors, or to break into homes and murder little girls in their beds, or blow up a bus full of children on the way to school. i have not seen one article that condemns pals from holding mass funerals and naming a a street or park after the murderer as noted above.
i fail to see anything of that ilk, nothing at all. why?
and dont give me islamic speak. "we reject the killing of all innocent people". but we know from past such statements that jews and their children are not considered innocent they are alleged occupiers [even though israel was taken by force] and therefore are not innocent. in islam speak "innocent" means other islamics. and working for world peace to islam means working for a world under the koran, you see to islam there canot be a real peace unless islam controlls everything and everyone.
and eboo - what islamics do to hindus is a crime beyond belief. they started murdering them in 690 ad and have kept up the butchering even today.
the sudan - genocide - was when the islamic north attacked the christian and peaceful south - with the intent of eliminating christians from the sudan by killing them all. hey eboo - where were you on that?
and in 1915 the islamic turks decided that christians - who happened to be armenian - needed to be killed, in accord with the koran. they hoped that no one would notice during ww1. when the genocide started there were 2,000,000 christian armenians in turkey, when they were done only 200,000 were left, and it only took 2 years. and they did not have hitlers ovens. hey boo - where are your articles condeming islam for that?

well pagan - the difference with islam and other religions is that murder and hate is built into the koran, so when an islamic does it he is following the koran.
when a christian does it - he is breaking the rules of the religion he thinks he is representating.
and lets not forget hindu's. the koran referrs to them as idolitors and are the lowest of the low.
and i would be happy never to hear of islam again, but you see they ar currently in a war with everyone everywhere. here is what an islamic professor has written:

"We know that for the first time in history, due to a unique geopolitical conjunction of factors, Islam is in confrontation with all of the major world religions: Judaism in the Middle East, Christianity in the Balkans, Chechnya, Nigeria, Sudan, the Philippines and Indonesia; Hinduism in South Asia, and, Buddhism—after the Taliban blew up their statues—in Bamiyan. And, Islam is on a collision course in the western province of China, where culture represents an amalgam of the philosophy of Confucius, Tao, and Communist ideology.
It is this historic conjunction that both singles out Islam and creates the global argument that the 21st century will be a time of war between Islam and the other world civilizations. Of course, this neat concept is challenged because so many Muslim countries are clearly allied to non-Muslim ones. Besides, so many Muslims now live in non-Muslim nations. But it is true to say that the major world civilizations are experiencing problems in accommodating or even understanding Islam, both within their borders and outside them.
If we are to prevent the world from lurching toward one crisis after another, one flashpoint to another, then we all need to radically rethink the relationship between our religion and other religions; a radical reassessment of one another. The West must send serious signals to the ordinary Muslim people - via the media, through seminars, conferences, meetings - that it does not consider Islam to be the enemy, however much it may disagree with certain aspects of Muslim behavior." http://www.akbarahmed.org/id67.html
notice the last sentence - everyone should tell islam we are not mad at them so that they dont feel bad. you think its just an accident that every major conflict in the world today involves islam?
dont get me wrong - they can say anything they want, they can belive anything they want, they can hate and ignore anyone they want - BUT I DRAW THE LINE AT KILLING!
and you have to admit that islam is heavy into killing.

PaganPlace:

First Mickey Mouse and now Winnie the Pooh -is nothing sacred? : )

Oh, but, here's a little hint:

Don't read books like that. The people who read books otherwise are a lot less dangerous and violent.

If you go read someone *else's* book like some folks read the Bible, then try to tell a guy who *doesn't* read it like that how bad he is for reading it like *you* do...

Well, you're way off base. Maybe one day we'll all grow out of such books... or a need to read them in the way you seem to insist upon.

It'll be a happier world.

Doesn't matter which particular book, and I think it's playing with fire to call *any* written book a 'Divine commandment' ...cause *someone* that wants to is gonna read that into Winnie the Pooh if they are so inclined and if you carelessly give them 'Divine Permission.'

Before you go picking sides as though it really *were* book-against-book, God-against-God, well.

Look at where you're putting those words.

It's not really the books. It's people being in a bit of denial about what they *do* a few generations or more down the line.

Well, Anonymous, I happen to *know* lots of stuff in Islamic sacred texts can be read to say, 'Go kill the person Paganplace is,' ...but, frankly, Christians and Jews were never short of textual justifications for that sort of thing, either, if they half-wanted them, ... I've heard plenty directed at me to my face in this life, myself, so... Your point?

Eboo Patel,

What you've written is wonderful. But it really has nothing to do with religion. It's about two good and thoughtful people.

Best wishes.

the peace that moho brought to the world:
The first Crusade began in 1095… 460 years after the first Christian city was overrun by Muslim armies, 457 years after Jerusalem was conquered by Muslim armies, 453 years after Egypt was taken by Muslim armies, 443 after Muslims first plundered Italy, 427 years after Muslim armies first laid siege to the Christian capital of Constantinople, 380 years after Spain was conquered by Muslim armies, 363 years after France was first attacked by Muslim armies, 249 years after Rome itself was sacked by a Muslim army, and only after centuries of church burnings, killings, enslavement and forced conversions of Christians.
but of course to the islamics - the christians were wrong for fighting back.
and look - you stole israel and every place else - give them all back, reject those portions of the koran that call for hate, murder, torture and forced conversions, and then we can talk about peace.

im hateful? did i write the koran? did i tell people for 1400 years to hate and murder anyone not my religion? did i command all that follow after me to do the same? did i have sex with a 9 year old?
want to talk about hate - look at the koran.

Hateful anonymous, I know your background and your hateful beliefs which started all hate we see in the world today by your people's lies and myth such as splitting the Red Sea (good only for a B movie or animation). You know in your books there is more hateful and violent passages than any other faith. I'll not call your religion a faith because it is not. It is puke which you spilled out some of it.

AHMED - what can lead to death is believing the islamic line about peace and love - until you kill me because i will not become islamic.
and its not just me who thinks that way - you have hundreds of millions of islamics that feel that way - we saw them demanding death for a picture of the child rapist moho, we saw it when the pope, quoting a 11th century pope who said that the korans demand for forced conversion was evil, had millions marching for his death. why? because all those islamics said it was a right given by their fake god to convert by force.
now who is full of hate?

believe how you want - but nothing in the old testament, the new testament or the book of morman tells their follows to hate torture, hold for ransom, murder of force conversions, to be a good member of that religion. if you want to see who has that - here you go: GUESS WHAT RELIGION HAS THE FOLLOWING
The Hadith No. 284, The Muslim, volume one, says that any Jew or Christian, who heard of Muhammad but did not convert to Islam, and died in disbelief, would rot in hell! Thus Islam withdraws from all Jews and Christians the right to believe in their faiths, and pratice them as such.
"The unbelievers of the People of the Book and the idolators shall be in the Fire of Hell therein dwelling for ever; those are the worst of creatures. But those who believe, and do righteous deeds, those are the best of creatures..." (XCVIII: The Clear Sign: 5)
Here those Jews and Christians, who spurn Islam, have been lumped together with the idolators such as the Hindus, and classified as 'the worst of creatures'. Therefore the Koran commands:
"O believers, take not as your friends those of them, who were given the Book before you, and the unbelievers, who take your religion in mockery and as a sport..." (V: The Table: 60)
"The true believers say: Has not God ordered a chapter that commands the holy war" (Sura 47:22); or elsewhere: "Kill the idolaters wherever you find them, imprison them, besiege them, ambush them" (Sura 9:5); and, "Make war on unbelievers" (Sura 9:29). "When you come upon unbelievers, massacre them, tighten the bands of the captives that you will have taken. Then you will set them free, or you will release them for a ransom" (Sura 8:57).
"To Allah, there are no animals viler than those who do not believe and remain unbelievers" (Sura 8:57). That is why it is necessary to Islamize them by force and by humiliation. And those who resist Islam and its founder must be chastised, according to the Koran: "Here is the fate of those who fight Allah and his messenger: you will put them to death or you will make them suffer the torture of the cross; you will cut their hands and their feet alternately. They will be driven from the country" (Sura 5:37).
"Do not display cowardice, and do not call the infidels to peace when you are superior to them" (Sura 47:22). THIS ALLOWS THEM TO MAKE PEACE SO THAT THEY CAN MAKE WAR AGAIN LATER.
4.89": They desire that you should disbelieve as they have disbelieved, so that you might be (all) alike; therefore take not from among them friends until they fly (their homes) in Allah's way; but if they turn back, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them, and take not from among them a friend or a helper.
"4.90": Except those who reach a people between whom and you there is an alliance, or who come to you, their hearts shrinking from fighting you or fighting their own people; and if Allah had pleased, He would have given them power over you, so that they should have certainly fought you; therefore if they withdraw from you and do not fight you and offer you peace, then Allah has not given you a way against them.
"4.91": You will find others who desire that they should be safe from you and secure from their own people; as often as they are sent back to the mischief they get thrown into it headlong; therefore if they do not withdraw from you, and (do not) offer you peace and restrain their hands, then seize them and kill them wherever you find them; and against these We have given you a clear authority."

I mean, one thing about *Christian* xenophobes is that they'll on one hand be asserting the ultimate moral authority of their savior-guy, and on the other hand, living in total terror of someone else coming along and treating them in the exact same way as they treat, or quite often clamor to treat, others.

Kind of ironic, there.

It's really called 'projection.'

Come on, folks, have a little faith. By the time someone gets done getting you to rationalize justifying tyranny and horror and hatred of your neighbor, you won't have time for the good stuff, anyway.

It's only a *little* harder to look for the assumptions that hurt you, instead of looking for enemies. I mean, hey, sometimes fights happen, but let's be clear on it, anyway.

What if they had a culture war and nobody came?

All kinds of divergent beliefs do not lead to a set of shared values - hospitality, mercy, forgiveness, cooperation. Thomas Jefferson knew this and that is why he guaranteed religious freedom and separation of church and state by amendment to our constitution. It was necessary back then when the whole nation was Christian and even now more so with many other religions are represented. The shared value is the Jeffersonian rule of law and that needs to be implemented by every nation in this world. History is replete with examples of divergent religious views leading to violence when freedom of speech and religion are not protected by the rule of law. It even goes on today in mostly Muslim nations.

Actually, though, Atique, I'd be inclined to say, 'Hey, if we have to have a conservative, let's try a Mormon, at least he might be more sympathetic to minority religions.

Only I lived in Massachusetts under Romney.

Don't you count on any such thing.

He identifies Mormonism with the other corporate-owned Christian conservatives when it's convenient, (which, frankly, is pretty much all the time. Just cause they have funny theology doesn't mean they aren't aligned with the far-right politically.)

As for Mormonism itself, I have no particular respect or disrespect compared to the other brand-names of 'book-religion' out there.

Politically, they are no different, they just have a slightly-more-plausible claim to being a 'persecuted minority' when they seek to use government to enforce their religious controls than do other brands of fundamentalists.

But I'll tell you, when they do a number on someone, they *really* do a number. You do *not* want to be a weird girl in Utah, let's say. They do manage to exceed their numbers in wreckage-production and battered refugees.

And they do blithely assert the 'right' to rewrite my ancestors' lives, and, I'm a tad prickly on that particular topic.

I may not judge people like which authority they follow when they do the *wrong damn thing* is what matters, but, I do judge *authorities* when they seek to rule me.

Mostly based on what they break, and how they handle that.

Ain't pretty.

And, frankly, I see little difference.

I'd kind of like to see some difference.

Anonymous.

You seem to be full of rage and hate which I gather comes from your personal experience. However, it could lead to physical sickness if you are not careful. Hence Jesus saying foregive your enemies. Coz those toxic emotions are happening in your chest. They do not exist outside. Outside is all illusion. It is inside that we must take care of and the best balm for a soothing heart is pure and unconditonal love which you are capable of nurturing.

With what you have been saying about Muslims, these 1.3 billion people seem like clones of each other, yet reality tells me and those who have travelled widely, that Muslims come in all colours and shapes with equally varying opinions.

Make peace with yourself coz no amount of verbal venom would solve world problems. Only a pure loving heart in the face of adversity can bring peace.

Please consider this message coming from one good heart to another.

Wiccan:

Speaking of HATRED have you seen this? If it weren't so tragic, it would be funny. How can this be done to children? Farfur the Mouse must die.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lZEGsnWZKh8

Mr. Patel,

I think in this piece both you and Lisa have exemplified the kind of humility and friendship necessary to truly facilitate the interfaith work you are advocating for.

Thank you for leading by example.

Your thoughts also brought to mind the words of Proverbs 31:10

"Who can find a virtuous woman? for her price is far above rubies. "

Similar to you, I have found that such women both within and without my LDS faith continue to profoundly touch, inspire and shape the betterment of my life.

With all the objections circling around the status of LDS women in their faith on other threads, I appreciate you drawing attention to the genuine potential power of their impact.

Woof. :)

I think Mormons are great. Lets try one as a President. It cannot hurt. Can he be any worse than the fellow that we have now?

No, anonymous can't be Frank Collins, because he would never be that honest. Although the "right about everything" comment is spot-on.

The anonymous was me, you idiots. I hate Isalmics because it makes my shallow life much easier to make superficial and uneducated generalizations about people I know nothing about. So shut up. I am right about everything.

Good article.....

commentator:
excellent piece, the only thing i have noticed about the mormons is that they are people of faith. not necessarily a true one by any means !! but they beleive in something and they respect it and they adhere to it. and that could make them pottentially good followers of the true faith .

Posted May 7, 2007 2:12 PM

What exactly do you mean by :
"pottentially good followers of the true faith"?

Well, Hater, there doesn't seem to be many people on your side. Maybe it's time to reconsider your tactics?

Anonymous, you spewed enough. Clean yourself and retreat. Leave people of good faith and good intentions live and love one another. You can go and lick your puke.

I thought "anonymous" was an unnamable or unidentified person, not a synonym for socially retarded.

I'm surprised these comments boards aren't policed a little more closely. The comment of the woefully ignorant and terribly bigoted anti-Muslim bigot really doesn't belong here.

Oh, and as for dogs, well, they may sniff butts, but they don't throw poo. :)

And maybe it's better to be a dog than a 'sheep,' ...at least that way you don't get fleeced. :)

Oh, Anonymous, would you just give it a rest?

The people who taught you to talk like that have never been substantially better than you decry when given the power and opportunity.

I happen to think it's a systemic problem with monotheism, myself, but that doesn't mean it stops people from being good, either. Sometimes it just emboldens the worst, and makes them feel not entitled to question their perceptions.

As you should, right about now.

Excellent article; thank you. Anonymous's comments remind me of why this statement from Joseph Smith is so important: "We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may." This is a part of our scripture, and all those who are members of religions who have been persecuted (Jews, Mormons, apparently now Wiccans & Islamics, too...) understand better that most how misjudged we can be by those who take our beliefs out of context and judge on hearsay or twisted partial fact. Noone can factually tell someone else what they believe; belief is personal and internal. Most people with any strong belief are too busy living their religion to attack others so venimously... I hope you find something positive to believe in soon.

Hater-

Boy, aren't you a real charmer. Please tell me what faith I should be.

Hater-

Now tell me you've read the whole Qur'an and you have found no verses about love, charity, or tolerance. Tell me the ONLY thing the Qur'an says is to kill someone if he is not Muslim. Want me to save you the trouble?

BTW, I'm a pagan, and really not too concerned about Mohammed's or Jesus' opinion of me, and I am "un femme d’un certain âge", and wouldn't know what to do with 72 virginis if I got them! (Probably have them paint my house...)

oh its you wicca? why are you involved in this one. you have no religion at all and if islam every gets to your part of the world you will not be allowed to last 3 minutes.
wicca is a dogs religion - which you have every right to do - but for a wicca - like a dog - any smelly butt will do.

The person who spewed filthy tirade on Islam is definitely not a Muslim but rather a person of a hateful background and trying to give a negative image about Islam. I'm not Muslim by the way.

Kudos to all those who praised the Mormon-Islam interfaith understanding.

well if you have a problem with me saying what the koran demands - well moho will not like you and you will not get your 72 virgins.
dont like what the koran says - dont take it up with me, tell moho.

You know, anonymous, I'm getting as sick of your "islamics" as I got of Chris Ford's "Islamoids" on The Debate (a forum hosted by Emily Messner, who has since joined WaPo radio). I would consider it a great favor if you would now post as "Hater", because that is all you do. That way, those of us who are here to learn could just skip your rants. Blessed Be.

Thank you for publicly noting that Mormons (Lisa and many more) are, at least on this side of the cultural divide, the last vestige of American Christianity with "poetic imagination." There is much in that comment which should be appealing to all in our land, culturally and politically.

if you follow islam you have to force her to convert and kill her if she doesn't. isn't islam great?
and tell us if you accept as the inspired word of god, and a command on you, that you must hate, torture, ransom, and kill those not islamic? if you dont then you are not islamic.

excellent piece, the only thing i have noticed about the mormons is that they are people of faith. not necessarily a true one by any means !! but they beleive in something and they respect it and they adhere to it. and that could make them pottentially good followers of the true faith .