God and Man at Dartmouth

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We heard your talk in Memphis, TN and talked with a member of your staff at Temple Israel next day. We received an award for interfaith work by Muslims in Memphis March 1, 2008. We have given many talks on our trip to Israel/Palestine with Interfaith Peace Builders. In those talks we tell people that the US converted Germany and Japan from our enemies into our staunchest allies by building up their economies and giving people hope. We emphasized the importance of listening and understanding on all sides to conflict. The absence of hope is what drives people to terrorist acts.
Rabbi Micah Greenstein at Temple Israel in Memphis told the National Union for Reform Judaism to get us to write information for Rabbis and educators nationally on how to bring about better relations between Jews and Muslims. When we did, they decided to use two pages of our material instead of the one page they planned.
We are now at 132 Everett Park, New London, NH, phone 603-526-6428, e-mail edward@ordman.net. We are giving more talks about interfaith and hope for peace at the Baptist Church here and in Baltimore at the Society for Values in Higher Education. We'd like to coordinate with interfaith work at Dartmouth.

PAGANPLACE SAID
"Not that interfaith dialogue isn't wonderful and edifying, but... You can't play soccer if people cling to the baseball bats they brought."

good one-
some of these earlier comments were really thought provoking

Ah, yes, AMH... Like there's never been any 'factionalism' in Christianity... since like the get-go. Certainly there's always been politics and political control involved in both, but pointing at a kettle hardly helps, here.

What we witness going on with “convert” and all those many Islamic groups she named is a sample of factionalism that plagued Muslims throughout their history. This is so because Islam is not a religion but a political ideology that is masquerading as a religion to gain legitimacy among the ignorant masses. This in order to control them and also manipulate them to do the dirty work of the rulers; Caliphs and their subordinates As a political ideology it has core shortcomings to make it incompatible with rationality and in turn with civilized concepts, such as freedom of conscience, liberty and human rights. Such an ideology could not be advanced except by ignorance and compulsion including outright violence which is allowed as a service to the Creator. Convert is an idealist who fails to place the blame where it belongs; the core tenants of the ideology she mistakes for a religion.

Mr Mahfouz

I am familiar with both the ayat and argument you quote. I repeat, it is an opinion.

Here you will find another opinion and good internet searches will reveal others too.

http://www.theamericanmuslim.org/tam.php/features/articles/muhammad_al_ghazalis_view_on_abrogation_naskh_in_the_quran/

Dear Eboo Patel

With all sincere respect, we would really like to hear where you stand on groups like ISNA and the Brotherhood.

It would appear that ON FAITH has far too many Brotherhood representatives.

I believe that Mattson, Jackson, Esposito and Ellison have all been outed for their Saudi or MB affiliations. It was embarrassing that On Faith has even involved people like Nihad Awad in serious discourse. Next we'll here from alleged World Trade Center bombing coconspirators. They're on the MWL lecture circuit too.

I would love to believe that you, Eboo are not like these deceivers. After all, you stated you are an Ismaili Muslim and both ISNA and the Brotherhood have historically damned Ismaili's as kafirs. The Aga Khan provides you a truly admirable example. Why settle?

I would like to see the ON FAITH panel have more GENUINE Muslim moderate representatives.

How about:

Reza Aslan - author
Asra Nomani - author/columnist
S. Amjad Hussain - author/columnist
Abdokarim Soroush - author
Khaled Abou El Fadl - author
Tarek Fatah - columnist
T.O. Shanavas - author

I am glad that Pam Taylor and Akbar Ahmed are on the panel, but we need to hear from MORE Muslims who promote honesty and mean what they say. If they say, they support democracy, you can listen without wondering about their hidden agenda.

How about it ON FAITH - Can we hear some truly sincere Muslim voices?

Convert tells me:
“The issue of abrogation is a controversial one. What you refer to is an opinion.”

The law of abrogation is taught by the Qur'an in sura 2:106,108, stating: "We substitute one revelation for another..." This is echoed in sura 17:86, which reads, "If it were Our Will, We could take away that which We have sent thee by inspiration." In sura 16:101 the law of abrogation is clearly defined as one verse being substituted by a better verse. Verse 101 read, "None of our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar- Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?"
Some examples of these abrogations are:
In sura 2:142-144, we find the change of the Qibla, the direction of prayer from Mecca to Jerusalem, and back to Mecca.
The inheritance laws in suras 4:7; & 2:180, provides an equal share for women and men, and then is doubled for men in sura 4:11.
The change of night prayers from a full night in sura 73:2-4, to a half or less, or whatever was easy to do in sura 73:20.
The change of punishment for adulteresses, beginning with life imprisonment, found in sura 4:15, and then changed to 100 strokes by flogging, according to sura 24:2. Remember that these two examples make no mention of the previous 'missing' aya which prescribes the stoning for those who commit adultery. It is also interesting to note that Homosexuals were let off if they repented, according to sura 4:16, though this same allowance was not given for heterosexuals.

More examples are found in the following link.
http://www.debate.org.uk/topics/history/quran.htm

I chuckled to myself wondering what William F. Buckley, the author of the landmark conservative tract God and Man at Yale, might have thought of this year’s Baccalaureate Service at Dartmouth College. In addition to Christian hymns and Bible readings, there was a Native American prayer offered in the Yuchi language, and recitations from the Hindu and Buddhist traditions.

The main speaker – yours truly – was a Muslim.

Hmmm - You still chuckling Eboo?

HA - next we'll find out the Campus Catholic groups are little mafiosos.

I think we can reasonably determine that no religious groups belong on campus.

How about a vote?

The current leader of the international Muslim Brotherhood, Mohammad Mahdi Akef, “recently issued a new strategy calling on all its member organizations to serve its global agenda of defeating the West. He called on individual members of the Muslim Brotherhood worldwide to not only join the “resistance” to the U.S. financially, but also through active participation.” In the MB Project (1982), Point of Departure instructs members,” To use diverse and varied surveillance systems, in several places, to gather information and adopt a single effective warning system serving the worldwide Islamic movement. In fact, surveillance, policy decisions and effective communications complement each other.”

I find this troubling. MPAC has loads of MB members or sympathizers and have a big movement to put their student apprentices in US Congress as congressional aids.

Does this mean those students are in congress for the purpose of surveillance?

Strange that MPAC squeals of surveillance of their Islamic Centers when they are advocating surveillance of US goverment for purpose of destroying it.

Guess what goes around comes around.

They really made their own mess.
Practically invited Patriot Act by the activities of their own 'moderate' (cough, cough)organizations.

WHOA - has anyone put 2 and 2 together?

Akef emphasized, “A Muslim in the international arena, who believes in the charter of the Muslim Brotherhood is considered part of us and we are considered part of him.” (ie: jihad, often violent, is the way)

Important question here for Mr. Eboo Patel

Do you believe in the charter of the Muslim Brotherhood?

Now since Eboo Patel lauds the many religious groups on campus, it is reasonable to investigate for our own education exactly WHAT it is we have here on campus: The Muslim Brotherhood affiliated MSA - Muslim Student Assoc., for example. Shouldn't we know who the MSA are and what they represent?

Let's look to their historical record:

The Muslim Brotherhood (Al-Ikhwan Al-Muslimun) also known as the Ikhwan is a good example of what people (Muslims and others) who value democracy must protect ourselves against.

The Muslim Brotherhood (“MB”) organization describes itself as a political and social revolutionary movement; it was founded in March 1928 in Egypt by Hassan al-Banna, (BTW - That's who Eboo's heroes, the Hathouts, brag about knowing). They objected to Western influence and called for return to an original Islam.

The Brotherhood is an expansive and secretive society with followers in more than 70 countries, dedicated to creating a global Islamic order that would isolate women and punish nonbelievers. Its members and supporters founded al Qaeda, as well as one “of the largest college student groups in the United States.”

The Deputy Assistant to the President and Deputy National Security Advisor for Combating Terrorism, Juan Zarate, stated recently, “the Muslim Brotherhood is a group that worries us not because it deals with philosophical or ideological ideas but because it defends the use of violence against civilians.” In fact, The MB 1982 secret plan, (the Project) recently exposed, instructs all members locally and globally “To channel thought, education and action in order to establish an Islamic power [government] on the earth.”

The Muslim Brotherhood has historically and continues to actively pursue the establishment of a Muslim regime that will serve as the basis to re-establish the Caliphate, not only by defending violence against civilians, The current leader of the international Muslim Brotherhood, Mohammad Mahdi Akef, “recently issued a new strategy calling on all its member organizations to serve its global agenda of defeating the West. He called on individual members of the Muslim Brotherhood worldwide to not only join the “resistance” to the U.S. financially, but also through active participation.” In the MB Project (1982), Point of Departure instructs members,” To use diverse and varied surveillance systems, in several places, to gather information and adopt a single effective warning system serving the worldwide Islamic movement. In fact, surveillance, policy decisions and effective communications complement each other.”

In an interview to the London based Asharq Al-Awsat, an international Arab newspaper on December 11, 2005, Akef stated that “the Muslim Brotherhood is a global movement whose members cooperate with each other throughout the world, based on the same religious worldview - the spread of Islam, until it rules the world.”

To that end, Akef said, “the Muslim Brotherhood… are an all-encompassing Islamic organization, calling to the adoption of the great religion that Allah gave in his mercy to humanity.” Meanwhile, according to its leader, the MB is busily cementing its ties: “We are in the global arena, and we preach for Allah according to the guidelines of the Muslim Brotherhood.

All the members of the Muslim Brotherhood in the international arena operate according to the written charter that states that Jihad is the only way to achieve these goals.

“Ours is the largest organization in the world,” he said.

Akef emphasized, “A Muslim in the international arena, who believes in the charter of the Muslim Brotherhood is considered part of us and we are considered part of him.”

In earlier interviews,

‘Akef called the U.S. “a Satan that abuses the religion.”

He said: “I expect America to collapse soon,”

declaring, “I have complete faith that Islam will invade Europe and America.”

Although U.S. observers often view the Muslim Brotherhood as well as Hamas as less violent than al-Qaeda, the Brotherhood has long been actively supporting global jihadi efforts.

“Prior to the U.S.-led attack on the Taliban regime, the Muslim Brotherhood actually had training camps in Afghanistan where it worked with Kashmiri militants and sought to expand its influence in Central Asian states, especially Tajikistan.”

It is not surprising, therefore, that the Muslim Brotherhood reacted to Hamas’ January 2006 electoral victory as not merely as a local achievement, but “a victory of the Islamic nation in its entirety,” and as an expression of the concept that “the path of Islam is the true solution.”

As the parent of all Sunni and many other Islamist terrorist groups,

the MB, to deflect attention, uses its long-term strategy, known as “flexibility” (muruna) in Arabic.

This chameleon-like adaptation is tactical moderation with the ultimate objective of complete Islamization of society.

Indeed, the MB’s 1982 project calls on members “To reconcile international engagement with flexibility at a local level.”

Today, when the West focuses on Islamist terrorism, the MB usually refrains from publicly advocating violence. The MB’s 1982 Project, calls on its members:

“To master the art of the possible on a temporary basis without abusing the basic [Islamic] principles… we should not look for confrontation with our adversaries, at the local or the global scale, which would be disproportionate and could lead to attacks against the dawa or its disciples.”

As stated on its charter and its website:

the MB seeks to install an Islamic totalitarian empire, a worldwide Caliphate, through stages designed to Islamize targeted nations by whatever means available.

A principal danger of MB activities is that they are hidden behind “religious” ideology. Moreover:

this ideology dictates concealment (Kitman).

In fact saying, “we should keep hush-hush on things that are still in preparation.”

This ideology controls every aspect of life and seeks to impose that control on everyone.

In the end, the MB intends to overthrow all secular governments and impose Islamic law (Shari’a) worldwide, and it is diligently pursuing this goal.

In July 2005, former Kuwaiti minister of education Dr. Ahmad Al-Rab'i, wrote in the Arabic London daily, Al-Sharq Al-Awsat:

"The beginnings of all of the religious terrorism that we are witnessing today were in the Muslim Brotherhood's ideology."

Thus, on its website, the MB advocates,

“Establishing the Islamic government.”

“Building the Muslim state…Building the Khilafa…Mastering the world with Islam,”;

This would necessarily deprive Americans of their First Amendment, rights.

The first clause in the Amendment states there shall be “no law respecting an establishment of religion.” The First Amendment also upholds an individuals’ right to religious freedom.

But AS DETERMINED BY ITS OWN DOCTRINE, the MB/MSA would:

EXPLOIT THE RIGHT TO RELIGIOUS FREEDOM ALONG WITH FIRST AMENDMENTS RIGHTS TO FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND ASSEMBLY TO ACTIVELY SEEK THE IMPOSITION OF LAWS THAT WOULD DENY RELIGIOUS FREEDOM TO EVERYONE ELSE.

(Please excuse the length - sometimes is necessary to provide comprehensive information)

"Most surely He Who has made the Quran binding on you will bring you back to the destination. Say: My Lord knows best him who has brought the guidance and him who is in manifest error. " [28:85].

In 28:85, Quran is binding, exceptions are not made to any verse. No abrogations mentioned, thus one must take the sum total, use reason and place verses in proper historical context.

One must determine what meaning the entire text has to a spiritually elevated way of living. In human progress violence is animalistic and reason and compassion the road to the wellbeing of humanity. If I can find Qur'anic support to my commitment to reason and compassion - all the better. And as mentioned before, I have.

The issue of abrogation is a controversial one. What you refer to is an opinion. I reject the radical Wahhabist view. It is a waste of time to participate in their senseless circular arguments. Their orientation is destructive. I can provide proof of this.

We have more important things to address now, such as how to undo the damage the "ISNA Wahhabi mentality" has done to the minds of the Muslim masses.

Before the Brotherhood perversion, a more compassionate Islam existed.

I have firm faith that a compassionate Islam will exist again as predominant and I will work toward this goal.

Convert tells me:

“I am well aware that I hold some unpopular opinions but to me they do not seem un-Islamic, they seem compassionate in accord with much of Qur'anic injunction, especially during the Meccan period.”

Those “compassionate”” injunctions found in the early Mecca period were abrogated(cancelled) by the later Medina verses. Even though those verses are no longer in effect yet they are still in the Qur’an and some, who are either ignorant of their status or with a hidden agenda keep on quoting them. The most often quoted Mecca verse is “no compulsion in religion’ which was abrogated by more than 20 other Medina verses of the kind.’
"Strike off their [infidel's] heads. Strike off their finger-tips! … because they defied God and his Apostle [Muhammad]." (Sura 8:12-13)
"Make war on them [infidels] until idolatry shall cease and God's religion shall reign supreme." (Sura 2:193)
"Seize them and put them to death wherever you find them." (Sura 4:89)
"Believers, make war on the infidels who dwell around you." (Sura 9:123)
"When the sacred months [Ramadan] are over, slay the idolaters wherever you find them. Arrest them; besiege them; and lie in ambush everywhere for them. If they repent [convert to Islam] and take to prayer and render the alms levy, allow them to go their way." (Sura 9:5)

Well, Let's talk about some of the complications in regard to these faith groups on campus.

The Muslim Students Assoc. demonstrates one complication. They, as an affiliate Brotherhood group, are, in my opinion, innately dishonest in that they do not reveal to outsiders their true agenda to ultimately replace US Constitution with Sharia. They ignore the Islamic dictate to follow the laws of any country in which you are a minority and subversively pursue their treasonous goals. At least the communists on campus in the 70's had the guts to say what they really believe.
They admitted to wanting to overthrow the US government.

MSA students won't tell the truth. Their policy is to lie and say they support democracy and American ideals.

How cowardly to have to lie about your religion and not have the courage to state your genuine beliefs.

The communists of the 70's were at least worthy of respect, while the MSA clearly is not.

Now, our dear Eboo here, continually confuses me. He sounds like a great guy promoting pluralism and piece on earth. Great sound bites Eboo!

But I really want to know Eboo, do YOU have the courage to tell us what you TRULY believe. Are you a promoter (privately of course, in the Brotherhood manner) of Islamic Shariah eventually replacing democracy?

From your articles, I would not think so, but you have some very strange heroes Eboo.

The Hathout Brothers who brag of being closely affiliated with the Hasan Al-Banna family. Call suicide bombing, 'understandable' and spew anti-Semitic rhetoric. (Not very pluralistic friends Eboo) These are people who are at the heart of the subversive lying Brotherhood and their alphabet soup of bogus organizations.

Eboo, you think affiliating with MPAC is something to brag about. It's Brotherhood central...right act like you support Democracy so you can get subversive Brotherhood students IN as congressional aids.

EBOO - CAN'T YOU SEE THE DAMAGE THESE LIARS ARE DOING TO ALL MUSLIMS WHO VALUE HONESTY?

What about the Muslims who genuinely support democracy and want to become politically involved in government as conscientious, honest citizens?

Your lying Brotherhood friends so interested in government affairs have RUINED the genuine opportunity to be politically active of those of us with true and honest intent.

These are the people who CAUSE Islamophobia, these Muslims who lie.

We need honest Muslims as leaders and heroes and I can guarantee you, they are not to be found in the Brotherhood.

These liars have tarnished the image of Muslims as decent and honest human beings. These are the people you seek as friends Eboo???

Please help us understand.

This is tragic and sad.

Finding an honest Muslim requires an extremely thorough background check. THIS - the Muslims have brought upon themselves by allowing themselves to be led by a subversive, dishonest and corrupt lobby.

"Buckley would be happy to know that religion is once again being taken seriously on college campuses, but... "

If that is true then it's a very sad thing that is happening on American campuses.

Please take your cult, clan, and religion and shove off where you can all meet, join hands, point your bottoms skyward, wash yourselves in strange places and worship visible or invisible creatures. Please people don't allow stagnant brains to destroy the best learning centers of the world.

Muslims coming to the USA to learn the sciences or arts must be engaged in just that and not into their mumbo jumbo rituals. When I transferred from a third world campus to the US, I simply had no time to pray to Allah. After classes there was work, after that catch up on sleep, assignments, study, there simply was no time to do anything let alone gather around people who believed in fairy tales. There were times when the Muslim Students would knock on my door and insist I join them in prayer, or partake in the "hillal" goat ritual; they always warned me of eating Harraam cafeteria food. I know one thing though; I graduated faster and with better grades than my MSA "brothers". I was the only foreign student working, getting a real salary while still a fulltime student. Well by that time I was A Kafir (ha ha, had to get that in).

The sole idea of religions on campuses is to keep the peoples "faith" and nothing else. I suppose the MSA at my American university failed to keep me in line.

As Eboo says..."People ask questions they would never have thought to ask before, and develop answers far more sophisticated than the ones they are accustomed to giving ..."

That is true to some extent, I asked the questions I never could ask before as a student and a member of the Jamaat-i-Islami. Here in the USA I also developed answers far more sophisticated than the ones THEY were accustomed to HEARING.

Dear Mr. Mahfouz

Some call the Qur'an, the Criterion as it is aimed to help one determine what is right and what is wrong. I take many valuable lessons from this Criterion and I also employ my conscience in this internal dialogue. That is key. I believe we are to think and ponder and discover the nature of our reality and are not meant to be mindless followers.

I am not guided by other's opinions but by what I determine to be ethical, honest, most true in light of the given facts. I try to figure out what are the best and most responsible choices for the wellbeing of humanity.

I am well aware that I hold some unpopular opinions but to me they do not seem un-Islamic, they seem compassionate in accord with much of Qur'anic injunction, especially during the Meccan period.

In areas of politics and science, there are some fine Muslim authors whose views offer valuable considerations to my internal dialogue.

I value the writings of Abdokarim Soroush, author of REASON, FREEDOM AND DEMOCRACY IN ISLAM as well as the writings of Dr. T.O. Shanavas, author of
EVOLUTION AND/OR CREATION: AN ISLAMIC PERSPECTIVE.

I do not consider their writings un-Islamic. I consider them down right enlightening!

One needn't be a promoter of man-made Shariah or backward in scientific assessments to be a Muslim.

Just take the high road!

Convert says
“also (I) witnessed the effects of the Muslim Student Assoc. on campus who in their promotion of Shariah are in effect promoting the destruction of the US Constitution (a rather treasonous notion).”

When I mentioned in earlier posts that Muslim imams preach in their mosques about the replacement of the secular constitutions with the Sharia, Victoria, Jihadist, Asim and other Muslims either denied it or dismissed it as isolated incidents. You are saying that even student organizations are promoting this seditious call. You are enlightened enough to separate Church and State and am also sure you realize that many of your coreligionists would consider this stand as Un-Islamic.

Eboo, Eboo, Eboo,

Apparently you did not mention the "fems" (flaws, errors, muck and stench) of contemporary religions during your campus visits.

e.g. The "Fems" of Islam:

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab who also had embellishing/hallucinating/ plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of the non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the assassination of Bhutto, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, (ditto for the Sunni bombers), the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali "crazies", the Kenya "crazies, the Pakistani "koranics", the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino "koranics".

And who funds this muck and stench of terror? The warmongering Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axia of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

There seems to be a foolish danger in having these religious groups on campus.

I am a firm advocate of becoming aware of the sacredness of every moment but this is a personal reflection between one's Deity and oneself. For formal worship, the religious institution down the block is a better idea, than an on campus group, in my opinion.

The academic environment is a terrific way to learn about religions, but this learning must be presented with objectivity. I am all for Religion 101 classes, comparative religious studies, anthropological exploration into belief systems as done by Joseph Campbell or in studies like The Golden Bough.

Initially, I was excited to hear about Al-Nur from Eboo, however I also witnessed the effects of the Muslim Student Assoc. on campus who in their promotion of Shariah are in effect promoting the destruction of the US Constitution (a rather treasonous notion). I do not really think such people belong on University campuses anymore than I think the Klu Klux Klan belong on campus.

Yes, they deserve freedom of speech to express their antidemocratic opinions, just as communists and anarchists do, but let them rent a public forum for this. In exercising their opinions that are noxious to supporters of the US Constitution, how will they feel or react to another group on campus that may wish to promote the Danish cartoons for example? We must offer equal opportunity and promote reasoned debate. This can become quite complicated in an on-campus setting.

test

Apparently, Eboo didn't do his homework. William F. Buckley was a committed Roman Catholic.

Horowitz asks
Why“the Muslim student group at Dartmouth has nothing to say about the Prophet Mohammed's call for the extermination of the Jews as a precondition for redemption,…”

The answer is because Muslims believe in the following statement alleged to be said by their prophet.
'The Last Hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: `Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him'; but the tree Gharkad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.' (Sahih Muslim, Book 40, Number 6985

2Late4God,
I agree. Lack of evidence to support a hypothesis leads to falsification of said hypothesis. If the God(s) of various religions (Jewish, Christian, Muslim, Hindu) actually did exist there'd be some strong evidence for it.

The feebleness of most claimed "miracles" is probably one of the most damning pieces of evidence against their claims. (Crying statues, Jesus appearing on a tortilla, etc...couldn't "God" do better than that?). Have you noticed God never causes severed limbs to grow back? If he can "cure" cancer, why not this?

That being said, it's nice to see different religious beliefs getting more attention at Universities and people becoming more tolerant of others beliefs. This should not extend to "respecting" belief in and of itself however. People can have silly beliefs ("Zarahemla", "Xenu", Virgin Births, Flying Horses, and so on).

PAGANPLACE:
Sure, on campus. we can talk *about* religion, but that's different from making campus a church.
Can't learn anything without space to think.

If I'm reading you right, I disagree. The degree in which religion - whatever it is - influences people needs to be studied and included in discussions on culture - and yes, even science. Belief has a profound effect on bias, and bias on interpretation - even of theoretically scientific or anthropological principals. It's terribly subtle, but I feel gives us (the university at large) a better picture and learning environment. Religion on campus - IF and ONLY if - it is inclusive of everyone in the discussion allows us to paint an even more thorough picture of humanity as it is operates.

L.KURT:
The system of christianity was used as a function of nation-state building over the years. Both to rule the unsaved masses, as well as a means of setting up a stable, civic governance in times of anarchy. There is a video series called The Western Tradition, narrated by the late awarded historian Eugen Webber. Google it and watch - it's entertaining as well as educational and describes how our civilization grew, starting with the Semites in the desert. He makes no bones about Christianity's rise and influence over modern life, but from a secular historian's point of view. It doesn't support belief you may hold, but provides interesting context.

KENNETH (and others of No Evidence = No God):
It doesn't matter. The point is that God, plural or otherwise is important and impacting on people's lives, needs to be aknowledged bravely and honestly and discussed in the university forum. Yes, atrocities have been comitted by and to the Israelies in the name of religion, but they've been committed by and against a cornucopia of other people - also in the name of religion. That thinking, that mindset that leads people to change their actions and affect their societies needs to be discussed and aknowledged, wether there's a legitimate source for that thinking or not.

I was giddy when I saw the video of a Hindu prayer being said in the US Congress- Venkatachalapathi Samuldrala, a Hindu priest with the Shiva Vishnu Temple in Parma, Ohio, made history on Sept. 14 by becoming the first Hindu religious leader to offer an invocation before a session of Congress.

If you're going to include one diety, you need to include them all in intelligent discussion. However, if you choose to exclude them all from the academic environment, I feel you're missing out on the bigger picture.

Remember, this is TOTALLY SEPARATE from the Church/State issue. How? Because it's not endorsing any religion, just aknowleding and discussing them in an educational setting. There's still no place for the Christian 10 Comandmants in my tax-funded schools or court houses, for example, just as the Wiccan Rede doesn't belong there.

" Kenneth:

There are many Gods on campus without any evidence any exist."

Funny how so many squabble over 'evidence', then, I guess. :)

Gaudeamus igitur.... :)

There are many Gods on campus without any evidence any exist.

Did I mention that 'prophecy' takes a while to edit? :)

Well, L'Kurt, there's certainly no honor in panic.

What do you want to do now?

Paganplace,

As you successfully show, religious systems are not necessarily rational from a here-and-now, realistic perspective. Also, religious beliefs are never just personal. What am I believing if only I believe it? They are like shared delusions, not that there is anything wrong with that. They are useful delusions, even the ones like Nazism that wreak horror on their enemies were useful in getting the trains to run on time. We need to get to a place where we collectively know enough about religions that we can critique them and choose to change them, or allow them to disappear, possibly make new ones.

I mean, seriously, L.Kurt.

I bust a 'miracle' for you right now, you try and burn me at the stake for my 'Satanic powers.'

Monotheists and rationalists *excrete masonry just the same* when something... anomalous goes on.

This is not 'faith' or 'proof,' or 'Satanic power, if it's not Jesus,' or *nothing.*

Just the world.

YNuffin different about it, except for the noticing.

Just the world. Same as it ever was... Just, a little more wonderful, if we get our heads out of sacks.

You like to say thasuch as I 'fear and appease what we don't understand.'

I say, you got that *backwards.*

Me, I fear *dying* as much as any other critter to which Lady of beasts issued a spinal column, but your 'Death?'

No.

Blown away by third hand reports of miracles? Enough to be cowed into accepting some bunch of words as 'Commandments?'

No. Your own saviour would kick you in the tush for thinking a show of 'power' had anything to do with 'truth.'

Again, take it from an old hex-breaker. If I wanted you to think you saw aliens or a dude raised from the dead, it would not be so difficult.

Some like to say so, but that's not Goddess, and unless you are more shallow and callow than you like to let on, not your God, either.

Some, of course, don't give a care.

But don't call it 'holy.'

Seen my own miracles. Take or leave the idea, 'God' is still between you and the next breath.

I know you're scared.

Cowboy up.

Wisdom is not something you can buy.

Could be you gota suffer along learning it like everyone else.

Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain!

Love the stage and sing or do not, that is your only choice. Any God that don't like that, has to go through me, and many who come before and after.

'Miracles' are not the damn point.

Your teacher taught you better than that, if I recall.

Here. Now. Humanity. This is the thing.

It's just the world.

Hey, some reasonable stuff from you, there, L.Kurt.

Yet:

"If someone told you they were the son of God and then preformed dozens of miracles in your viewing, would you believe them."

No. I would say, 'Son of whatever God, let's go get some stuff done.'

" If he preached a vision of love , understanding and forgiveness, would you believe him then."

About love, understanding and forgiveness? Sure. No show of force necessary. Good like that.

" If that person then allowed himself to be killed in the most humiliating fashion and then rose from the dead as further proof, would you believe them."

About what?

Dying? Does seem to happen. Almost as if it were to happen... at the end of every life.

" If you didn't actually see any of this, but then someone told you about it and then performed miracles in his name as proof, would you believe them?"

No? So happens I've seen a lot of complete idiots perform miracles. Possibly including myself. Power and smarts are not actually connected, unfortunately. 'Proof?' Proof isn't a measure of how impressed you are.

Take that from an old hex-breaker.

" If those same people were willing to die rather than change their story, would you believe them?"

No. Why? Willingness to die for a belief should only be a measure of willingness to kill over it, not whether or not it is 'true.'

In the past, I have been willing to die for ideals out of fits of pique, ...doesn't mean the Pailhead song in mind at the time was Absolute Truth...

" If the religion based on these proofs grew for over 2000 years despite ongoing persecution thrugh word of mouth and later through a hierarchical organizational structure, would it make you think there is something to it?"

No, especially since that's not the story. It's not that old, and for the most of what's left, that religion *was* the oppressive, persecuting hierarchical structure, and more pertinently, is today.

I'd turn your question back on you.

If you tried to believe that worldview for, oh, I dunno, round it off to a millenium, and still ended up back in the world trying to talk sense to dudes like *you,* wouldn't you think it's possible that belief system *doesn't* atually carry the weight that it claims to contradict all experience and other cultures?

I mean, Gods.

Christian world's been ending some seventeen hundred years.

There some prophecy that really needs any more attempts at self-fulfilling?

How bout tomorrow.

"If you cannot prove that god exists, then it does not exist."

This is a common but erroneous modern belief about the power of "science." Those who have up-to-date understanding of science realize that we never "prove" that something exists. We only have agreed upon and useful speculations. Religious beliefs are a special kind of speculation, where we agree that we can never have supporting evidence but we believe it anyway, because we need to believe something. All systems of understanding have this kind of foundation, called axioms. Religious beliefs are the axiomatic basis for the rest of our beliefs. That is why they are so important to us.

2Late4God:

Your view is pretty limiting. Since when does our inability to prove something mean it doesn't exist. It just shows how limited we are. I guarantee you believe in lots of things that you can't prove exist. And lots of things exist that you've never seen.

Besides, just because you can't see God with your senses, doesn't mean you can't see the result of his work. If you are scientifically inclined, you know that the universe if very orderly, made up of a common set of building blocks , often in consistent ratios (like pi or phi) and follows a set of physical laws (like gravity). If there is no master planner (God), how can you explain this. Have you thought about this? Do you really believe that this could happen out of randomness?

Finally, you are selling our predecessors short. Just because they didn't have the internet 2000 years ago, doesn't mean they weren't capable of observing the world around them and understand basic truths of existence. There is nothing to indicate that humans 100 generations ago were any less intelligent than we are, only that they had less access to information and education. And certainly ignorance of one subject has no bearing on expertise on another. I can tell you there are many very smart people who couldn't tell you how to change the oil in their car.

If someone told you they were the son of God and then preformed dozens of miracles in your viewing, would you believe them. If he preached a vision of love , understanding and forgiveness, would you believe him then. If that person then allowed himself to be killed in the most humiliating fashion and then rose from the dead as further proof, would you believe them. If you didn't actually see any of this, but then someone told you about it and then performed miracles in his name as proof, would you believe them? If those same people were willing to die rather than change their story, would you believe them? If the religion based on these proofs grew for over 2000 years despite ongoing persecution thrugh word of mouth and later through a hierarchical organizational structure, would it make you think there is something to it? If over a billion people believed them and offered their own testimony, would it change your opinion? Would it at least make you want to educate yourself to see if there was truth to what they were saying, particularly since those people believe that if you follow the teachings of the man who said he was the son of God there was hope for eternal happiness instead of the eternal emptiness which is your current expectation?

"will you join me in condemning these perversions?" - David Horowitz

David, You can only call elements of other's faiths "perversions" if you allow elements of your own faith to be reasonably characterized as "perversions." When you see your own beliefs as being superior to those of others, and say degrading things about their beliefs, they can reasonably consider you to be uncivil and refuse to discuss the issue with you.

"God should be at the center of people’s intellectual journeys, and therefore should play a far more significant role..."

I personally agree with this belief, but I find that others always want to impose their own ideas of "God" on me. Not only have we no means to agree on which should be the public "God", but any attempt to suggest a transcendent definition is resisted as incompatible with somebody's beliefs. I welcome the new interest in spirituality, but I wish it was more informed by comparative history of religion and respect for the evolution of systems of faith.

"The same is true for faith on campus, period. One of the frustrations of my own college experience is that religion was rarely a part of the discussion, either as a personal matter, or as part of the broader discourse on multiculturalism."

Frustrations?

Why would it be frustrating for there to exist a not-religiously-*dominated* place to go and think and learn?

Schools based on *reason,* to my experience, allow 'faith' to stop *fighting* and for *minds* to learn how to *deal.*

Not that interfaith dialogue isn't wonderful and edifying, but... You can't play soccer if people cling to the baseball bats they brought.

What if everything has its place, and university is a place where we put things on the field of intellect?

Some may fear that if their religion isn't *absolutely and exclusively everywhere,* that they are being 'Oppressed,' but, what if university is for *learning,* and the churches never more than a block away are for 'Religion?'

Sure, on campus. we can talk *about* religion, but that's different from making campus a church.

Can't learn anything without space to think.

And I think that scares some.

I haven't been to Dartmouth in 15 years. Here's my question for you. We submitted the attached Declaration Against Genocide to the Muslim student group at Dartmouth and to its president. We got no response. In other words, the Muslim student group at Dartmouth has nothing to say about the Prophet Mohammed's call for the extermination of the Jews as a precondition for redemption, nor about the genocidal terrorist Muslim organizations Hizbollah and Hamas. Do you? Is it part of your interfaith mission to pretend these problems in Islam don't exist, or will you join me in condemning these perversions of Islam?

David Horowitz

Celebrating religious diversity on campus is analogous to celebrating children's stories for their historical accuracy. Colleges and universities are supposed to be environments for intellectual exercises. Religious groups should be banned from campuses for their lack of intellectual integrity. If you cannot prove that god exists, then it does not exist. If you wish to base your philosophical ideas on the dark ages and beyond, then you might also want to incorporate then-existing ideas on science, medicine, hygiene etc. If the talmud, bible and koran were accurate about the great mysteries of life, then certainly their contemporaries understood everything about the lesser studies. Blood-letting and leeches will be back in medical style! And crucifixion will be the penal method of choice!

How strange that Buckley wanted a Protestant God. Buckley was a lifelong, devout Catholic.

Dear Eboo

I am happy if it is true that college campus groups are accepting greater diversity.

Yet I remember only a few years ago being chastised by the on-campus Muslim Student Assoc. because my bangs showed peeking out beneath my hijab. They were judgmental, ungracious and unfriendly.

Muslim students need other options besides MSA.
Glad to hear about Al-Nur!

Nice article Eboo. It's nice to see campus religious organizations getting some respect. I wonder if this sort of tolerance and respect for religious student organizations is a widespread trend in university education.

I recall from my university days that my alma mater would only officially recognize one student organization to represent any given religious tradition. All others were required to have all meetings off campus. Since the Catholics and Jews had the best near-campus facilities, most of the smaller religious student groups generally used theirs. So it wasn't unusual to see flyers for a Muslim student group meeting at the Jewish facility or a Hindu group meeting at the Catholic facility. Heh, the first time I saw a flyer for a Ramadan activity at the Jewish community center it really turned my head.

The only stubborn and uncooperative group was the administration. Oh, and that wierd cult guy with the beard and large family that used to preach and hand out literature on the Quad.