A Modest Proposal

Paganplace predicts:

'Outlawing hijab,' ...ain't gonna happen.

They said that same thing in Turkey, the seat of Muslim Caliphate and in Tunis another bastion of Islam. Then two enlightened men, Borquiba and Ataturk simply said no more of that nonsense. And it came to be.
All it took from Ataturk was an executive decree. Off course Turkish women who never knew how to walk without a burqa did not immediately comply. Ataturk issued an addendum to his bourqa ban which stated that “Prostitutes were to be excluded from the ban order”. Immediately the bourqa was shed by all women of Turkey including the prostitutes among them.

liberty,equality,and fraternity.

the above flag and allegiance was raised on the skull of the last king and the entrails of the last priest where france took the pioneership.

right after the above french revolution,the savage french war took places not only in europe but all over the world .

europe and the so called free world call the above the *renissance*secularism and liberalism wich in reality is the ignoranceance and slaveryance.

the above ^renissance^mentality brought to the world racist ignorant heads like sarkozy,saintsecular g bush and the prince of peace blair ,

hitler,mussline,stallin and lenin .

the severly backward mentality of the west need serious up grading .

in the shade of the ?renissance? if the woman can make a slot and a prostitute out of her self why is not for a muslim woman to preserve her modesty.

The burkha is in fact very popular among Muslim women. Why else would Saudi Arabia, Iran and so many Muslim countries make it compulsory?

Sperrico,

Are you saying your grandparents gave up everything from their Sicilian culture when they came to this country? Their religion? Family recipes? The *American* culture has developed from contributions from immigrants from all over the world. My ancestors as well as yours. There's no rule that says immigrants should totally abandon their heritage when they arrive here. A certain amount of adaptation is both advisable and inevitable. Also inevitable is a certain amount of influence of the immigrant culture on the mainstream culture. This is not a bad thing.

What I find missing from this dialogue is the fact that the perception, or perhaps assumption, in the West is that no woman would willingly choose to wear the burka unless she was coerced into it. I have yet to hear a first person account of a woman (living in the West) who chose to wear a burka on her own volition and her reaons why (as I have with the hijab). I do believe that women should be free to wear whatever mode of dress they please. I just find it hard to believe that a woman would prefer a burka, if not for the pressure of husband, family, or peer pressure. If there are women who truly would prefer to wear a burka, then yes, I would support their right to do so.

If my premise is correct (that women do not willingly choose to wear a burka), does banning the burka accomplish anything worthwhile? Any woman who had been coerced into wearing a burka in the first place would probably then be coerced (by the same party) into staying home. She is no more *free* than before.

Looking at it from another perspective, I was wondering how western countries address the issue of other cultures who allow more than one wife. If a man with two wives from a country that allows this (I believe Saudi Arabia allows this, among others) were to visit a western country that doesn't allow this, what are the protocols? What if they want to become citizens and not just visitors? I'm sure it's probably different with different countries, but I wonder if there are any parallels with the burka issue.

When are immigrants either going to adapt to the customs of the countries in which they choose to live or stay in their home country?
Muslims seem to want non-Muslims adapt to their customs. Why should we?

Instead of non-Muslim Americans accepting Islamic dress, etc., why don't Muslims adapt to Main-stream American traditions as did my Sicilian grandparents when they immigrated over one-hundred years ago? Isn't America as Muslims find it good enough? Maybe they would prefer their home-countries?

Presumably women are covering themselves in Islamic culture such that they do not induce lust in the male members of Muslim society. Well, then if Islam is an equitable religion, why shouldn't men have to cover their hair and wear modest codpieces such as not to induce lust in women. If Islam is being equitable to men and women then why shouldn't men also have to walk around in black sacks.

Of course, this assumes that Islam is not just using a dress code as a way to control women.... Naaah, that couldn't be....

halozcel1: thank you, kindly, for proving my point.

This Feisal Abdul Rauf guy is just an Islamic wolf in liberal sheep's costume. He declares that he is in favor of liberal even libertarian values but his real agenda is the Islamicization of the West and the loss of ALL freedom. He cannot point to a single Islamic country where freedom reigns. Islam and freedom cannot coexist. The very meaning of Islam is SUBMISSION. If he is so in favor of the freedom to chose whether or not to wear the chador or burqa why isn't he supporting the unveiled unbowed women in the streets of Iran.

Decentdust,

You are in contrdiction.
You criticize Ban on Burqa in one of your posts,but,on the other side,you advice Ban on some posters and On Faith(The Post should just shut it down)

Why dont you write an *intellectual Stimulation* on Burqa/Black Cage ?

A bunch of us seem to have missed Rauf's point that any law mandating that must (or must not) where the burqa could infringe on personal conscience and for that reason be considered repressive. It is equally wrong for her to be forced to wear one by family or community.

These message boards are over-run with angry spleen-venting from people who barely seem to read the posts they're responding to. My guess is most them are either fundamentalist Christians or "new" atheists, who have much more in common than they'd care to admit.

Do you guys come here for intellectual stimulation, or just to say nasty things anonymously?

* 'Outlawing hijab'...ain't gonna happen *

How do you know ?
Who knows what happens 10 years later ?

Abhab:

"Not only the burqa but also the hijab should be outlawed in Western societies because of the above reasons and because a baseball cap and a turtle neck would be as Sharia compliant if that were the real purpose."

In America, at least, what is the real problem for most is making these things *compulsory.* Allowing women to be forced to cover their faces is incompatible with equality as a citizen, ...also very incompatible with what's allowed to anyone else: covering the face all the time is a very different thing from ethnic and religious-related attire.

'Outlawing hijab,' ...ain't gonna happen.

Shouldn't, either. If a woman's *forced* to by her husband or neighborhood thugs or whoever, then her civil rights are being violated. *That* is actionable.

If a schoolgirl is, well, Catholic school kids know all about how to subvert dress codes. Ask. anyone. :)

If you 'outlaw the hijab' ...can I be arrested for wearing a wimple to the Renfaire? How about the babushka, or if I wear a kerchief for some dusty work? Traditional nun's habits? (Not sure anyone actually still wears those, come to think of it.)

Kind of hard to even draw a *line* in that general vicinity.

Schoolkids need to be able to participate in school, and adults *should* participate in society enough to show their faces.

Public safety overrides a woman's right to choose denigration for the sake of an ancient tribal religion in the form of the burka. The KKK can't walk around mask, and the practice invites criminal behavior. France and the US should BAN THE BURKA IN PUBLIC.

I do think, Farnaz, that prettying up a burqa doesn't do anything as regards people's expression except say, 'Oh, lovely, we've expensively decorated one of the interchangeable women.'
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You're taking Feisal too literally, PaganPlace. He's not an idiot. He's imagining a market-place appeal to the burqua-encased women, some of whom, may have a some degree of input in terms of what they wear.

Some ME and Asian women do strange things when they come to the West. I knew a woman who dressed pseudo-Western style in Islamabad. When her family emigrated to the US, she started donning sharwa kameez, insisting that her daughter do the same.

As for the topic, more later.

"The burqa and other forms of veils such as hijab are political and cultural statements that are meant to say 'We are better than you and we reject your culture'."

And under the First Amendment, that is a perfectly legal thing to wish to say.

Tuareg turbans, Orthodox Jewish dress for both males and females, Amish clothing, the long skirts and dresses worn by many Christian fundamentalist women, daishikis and Afros worn by African Americans celebrating their heritage, the hippie's long hair or the mohawks and piercings worn by punks - all of those also say, to some extent, "We are proud of who we are, and we don't choose to participate in all aspects of your culture," the culture of assimilation, the majority American culture. But it is not, and has never been, a requirement for living in America or being an American citizen that you accept and celebrate all aspects of "American" majority culture.

Mr. Sarkozy’s argument against the burqa was that it is NOT ordained by any religion, and it does separate women from the larger society. I would further add that this Zorro-like shroud facilitates crime and sexual immorality. Most of the prostitutes who work in the Pyramid district of Cairo arrive at their dens wearing niqab.

The burqa and other forms of veils such as hijab are political and cultural statements that are meant to say “We are better than you and we reject your culture”. Why else would the Islamists pay large sums of money to public figures such as movie actresses and news anchors to wear the hijab and the burqa? Or why the Islamists in Iraq threaten non-Muslims men with death if their women do not wear the veils?
Not only the burqa but also the hijab should be outlawed in Western societies because of the above reasons and because a baseball cap and a turtle neck would be as Sharia compliant if that were the real purpose

Thanks alot! Oh, if only YOU and all other men were compelled to wear this thing! Then, I'm sure it would be banned as cruel and inhuman...what's lawful and reasonable for one would seem entirely different if others were compelled to live with the consequences also...
What a big man from your protected ivory tower! Why not start wearing your own burka today in solidarity? Go ahead, we're waiting...

How dare you make light of the enslavement of women with your callous, facile remarks. Sarkhozy has made a principled and truthful stand against religiously condoned slavery. These women walk about in shrouds with slite for vision or screens behind which they must peer at the world. This is the most abject slavery. Those who chuckle at it reveal their own depravity.

It well behooves the French to outlaw this religious assault on women. It will send the right message that assaults on French freedom will not be tolerated, no matter how loud the howls of those who do not have French values and nevertheless impudently claim the right to live in France.

If the Muslim attitude toward Muslim women is allowed to stand, it will inevitably infect the rights of all other women and men in France. Sarkhozy has refused to stand idly by while Muslim women are enslaved and all other women threatened. He is right. No man or woman is to be subjected to isolation and slavery at the pleasure of Islam, whether its religion or culture.It is Islam which must bow to the French, especially where Islam is cruel and despotic in its tyrannical atempts to rule the human soul.

Are you living in the real world? Or a protected, wealthy environment where you go to nice cocktail parties, and your kids elite schools, and all you know are other well-educated, respectful, polite folks. Come down to earth a bit and visit our other world...I cannot believe you defend the burka! How would your precious cocktail parties flow, if all the women guests were wering them, your children's school's, your workplace...go ahead, tell me!
I suppose you willingly allow any heinous practice and its expression in our public places...Is there any practice you would ban? For Heaven's sake! We forbid every inhuman thing, from cock-fighting, dog-fighting, protect every species, protect children and ban drugs that may harm...yet clothe this practice in religion and everyone it all for it. Most of these commentators will not be running into hordes of women such as these on their streets as so feel quite comfortable with the occasional apparition...Thanks alot all you high-minded folks...You are safe knowing you won't have to really live with the consequences...

Imagine what would happen if a top fashion model walked down the runway in a Hermes-designed burqa, or if Muslim women could vie for the latest French designs of their hijab? An entire line of French clothing could be designed to meet the Islamic need for modesty.

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Designer high end very expensive- burkas, hijabs, nikabs, chadors, dupattas, nikabs, etc have been around for years.

Some outfits can cost as much as $3,000+ American dollars. Do a google.

The good Imam obviously is not a fashion kind of guy. (smile)

I do think, Farnaz, that prettying up a burqa doesn't do anything as regards people's expression except say, 'Oh, lovely, we've expensively decorated one of the interchangeable women.'

French-designed burqas and hijab could sweep through the Muslim world with its market of more than 700-million women. France could revitalize an entire industry, opening clothing manufacturers around the country.
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A gentle essay, Feisal! As for your recommendation, you might want to take a look at some of the Pakistan fashion magazines with styles combining "east" and "west," beautiful, imaginative.

Of course, Islam does not require the burqua, only that women dress modestly. It is patriarchy that requires the burqua, and so long as French Muslim women from countries in which the burqua is worn exist in enclave communities, their receptivity to change, to the extent that they are allowed to engage it, will probably not be great.

And, btw, even if someone makes you live through a peephole in a *very pretty* curtain thrown over your head, it's still living through a peephole in a curtain thrown over your head.

Besides, I thought the point was *modesty,* not *Hey, I'm gift-wrapped.*

I mean, *in earnest.* There's a difference between religious expression in public school and Daddy throwing a bedsheet over you and sending you to school, which is supposed to teach it's 'God's will' that you're supposed to be unable to be seen or interact at all.

Neeeext... Dayvear!

Neeext! Svimvear!

Neeext! Eveningvear! :)

Sorry, couldn't resist that, Imam. :)

I've very much supported the right of Muslim women to wear the hijab in America, ....I do think that Muslims need to come a little of the way on the notion that it's just not OK in a free society for public institutions to demand women don't have *faces.*

Said it in another thread, everyone's welcome, but *be* here.