One Body, Imperfect Parts

Too bad Mr. Weigel doesn't understanding Catholic Church teaching on the definition of "Church" or the "Body of Christ."

IGREJA EVANGÉLICA CORPO DE CRISTO

C N PJ- 03.990.281/0001-65

END.: Rua Alice Vilas Boas da conceição nº 252
Bairro: Lotiguassú I Uberaba CURITIBA PR.
FONE: 55 (41) 3364 4832 CEL. 55(041) 8889 5664
SITE: www.igrejacorpodecristo.com.br

CARTA Oficio nº 01 / 08

Subject: Difficulties.

- the Church Evangélica Pentecostal BODY DE CHRIST comes for way of this, to tell some difficulties that this facing in relation to the payment of the installments of a land, situated to the Street Alice Good Villages of the Conceição nº 252, Lotiguassú I from above Uberaba, Curitiba PR. In the year of 2.002 we start to work in the quarter nailing the word of God and many families if had added; E emotivados with the events we buy a land of 300 m2, financed for the Real estate AVA PARTICIPATION, in 60 times and with much difficulty we obtain to place a hall in this land and today we you work with 41 families, and this family, the majority are dismissed and others below of the line of poverty, (moradores in the invasions the side of the River Iguaçu) next to 277 BR and Avenue of the Towers. One has left of these families who in the aid, are catadores of paper and are small reverted aid and for the other families who are to the edges of the society, and thus brighten up the suffering of the most needed, reverting in social assistance, therefore already we look for to take care of these families with external aid, but we find much resistance and lack of will on the part of the public power.
- and with this it has brightened up the agruras of some families who we help, in the material direction and spiritual to recoup high the esteem of the people and it exempts some children of the marginalização, drugs and infantile prostitution.
- With these difficulties we do not obtain to quit our debits, with the Real estate AVA PARTICIPATION, we finish it installment that we pay we were in day 26 of March of 2.007. 14 still missing benefits
- We ask for that in it helps them, therefore we work with recovery of lives.
OUR BANK ACCOUNT:
BANK OF BRAZIL - Current Account: 16.289-2 - Agency: 1443-5

It still launches your bread on waters, because after many days you will find it distributes with seven, and even with eight, because you do not know that badly it will have on the land.
ECLESIASTES. 11: 01 and 02

CURITIBA / 2.008

Certain of being taken care of

please in it helps them
letter in annex
Pr. Peter

IGREJA EVANGÉLICA CORPO DE CRISTO

C N PJ- 03.990.281/0001-65

END.: Rua Alice Vilas Boas da conceição nº 252
Bairro: Lotiguassú I Uberaba CURITIBA PR.
FONE: 55 (41) 3364 4832 CEL. 55(041) 8889 5664
SITE: www.igrejacorpodecristo.com.br

CARTA Oficio nº 01 / 08


Assunto: Dificuldades.

- A Igreja Evangélica Pentecostal CORPO DE CRISTO vem por meio desta, relatar algumas dificuldades que esta enfrentando em relação ao pagamento das prestações de um terreno, situado à Rua Alice Vilas Boas da Conceição nº 252, Lotiguassú I Uberaba de cima, Curitiba PR. No ano de 2.002 começamos a trabalhar no bairro pregando a palavra de Deus e muitas famílias se agregaram; E emotivados com os acontecimentos compramos um terreno de 300 m2, financiado pela Imobiliária AVA PARTICIPAÇÕES, em 60 vezes e com muita dificuldade conseguimos colocar um salão neste terreno e hoje nós trabalhas com 41 famílias, e estas família, a maioria estão desempregada e outras abaixo da linha de pobreza,(moradores nas invasões a beira do Rio Iguaçu) próxima da BR 277 e Avenida das Torres. Uma parte destas famílias que nos ajuda, são catadores de papel e está pequena ajuda e revertida para as outras famílias que estão às margens da sociedade, e assim amenizamos o sofrimento das mais necessitadas, revertendo em assistência social, pois já procuramos atender estas famílias com ajuda externa, mas encontramos muita resistência e falta de vontade por parte do poder público.
- E com isso tem amenizado as agruras de algumas famílias que ajudamos, no sentido material e espiritual para recuperar a alta estima das pessoas e livra algumas crianças da marginalização, drogas e prostituição infantil.
- Com estas dificuldades nós não conseguimos quitar os nossos débitos, com a Imobiliária AVA PARTICIPAÇÕES, a ultima prestação que pagamos foi no dia 26 de março de 2.007. Faltam 14 prestações ainda.

- Pedimos que nos ajude, pois trabalhamos com recuperação de vidas.
- NOSSA CONTA BANCÁRIA:

BANCO DO BRASIL - Conta Corrente: 16.289-2 - Agência: 1443-5

- Lança o teu pão sobre as águas, porque depois de muitos dias o acharás. reparte com sete, e ainda até com oito, porque não sabes que mal haverá sobre a terra.
ECLESIASTES. 11: 01 e 02

CURITIBA / 2.008

Certo de ser atendido

___Pedro de Souza___
Pr. Pedro de Souza
FONE: 55(41) 3364 4832 / Cel 55(041)8889 5664

To Concerned the christian now liberated and the rest of the world: Sometimes people need to look into the mirror because sometimes what they think of other people is really what is happening to themselves. I went to Catholic school for 12 years, and one of the things that they try to teach you is to think, I guess it is up to each person whether they will go to the trouble to actually attempt it. Actually the word of God is LOVE, the bible can help lead you to God but many things can help lead you to God. Something that is interesting in the bible is when Jesus says, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except thru Me", did you ever notice that it doesn't say anything about there not being a gazillon ways to Jesus;, think about it. God has all the bases covered so to speak, satan is frantic right now, that is his problem. God has a Plan and has had His Plan since before creation. One day, the seventh day, everyone will be thankful but of course night is coming and it will be very bleak to put it mildly, please be ready. I repeat, God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, you ask to be forgiven then that entails forgiving others. I am glad that God is God and none of us are and I am also glad that God is willing to help lead us but not willing for us to lead Him. Thank You God the Father, Dad, for Your Plan, thank You Jesus, our Brother, for Your obedience to the Plan and thank You Holy Spirit, our Knitting Buddy, for bringing the Plan to Fruition. Just a reminder: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

CCNL,

What about those of us who don't suffer from the "3 B's"? Any possibility you could agree to disagree, without insulting my intelligence?

Sheen,

Most of the people who still believe the bible is the word of God, suffer from the three B's. They were Bred, Born and Brainwashed to believe in religious hallucinations, embellishments and myths. Belief in "flying, pretty, wingie, talking thingies" is a good example.

CCNL wrote:

"Much of the NT is composed of hallucinations."

I believe the proper way for you to say that would have been that you believe that much of the NT is composed of hallucinations, since we have no proof of that. Just as many people believe it to be the word of God.

Thomas,

And what medications did the hospital doctors have you on???

To Concerned the Christian now liberated and the rest of humanity: As far as "visions" I did not see Dad or the Holy Spirit or Jesus in the Eucharist. God the Father, Dad, came into my heart, the Holy Spirit came into my body and the Holy Spirit revealed to me that the Eucharist is Jesus and that was neither by words or sight, I just knew. Here is something else to think about just a couple of hours after Jesus being the Eucharist being revealed to me, satan came down to battle me personally for 24 plus hours, yes down satan still has access to heaven but he will be booted out in due time, and God in His Wisdom got me to the VA hospital at Perry Point, MD, if it wasn't for God in His Wisdom having me drafted, since I would have never joined the service there is no way that that trip could have occured. Oh by the way I didn't see satan either but during part of those 24 plus hours satan did speak and he said that I sold my soul to the devil, notice he wouldn't even fess up to being satan, what a liar, actually it was more like I gave it away, I have no problem admitting that I have done wrong and you know what God appreciates honesty. Time will tell if I am a complete wacko or if I am speaking of things that actually happened to me. I was at Perry Point VA Hospital from 31 Jan 2000 to 29 Feb 2000 and I tell you I sure needed the time there in more ways than one and God definitely knew it. It really doesn't matter what people believe because Truth is Truth whether people believe it or not. I wouldn't speak directly about these things for quite a while, for one thing I had to sort out what had happened and for a while I was too terrified. satan is not nice, not nice at all and a lot of people like to joke about it, well they can do whatever they want, I am here to tell the world that God's Plan is for all of His children to be in His Kingdom, the Kingdom of Love, we all answer for what we do and why we do it and for what we know, what really is the big deal about that, you know the good thing is God is going to declare Victory in favor of His Holy Ones and everyone will receive a full pardon, that seems to really upset a lot of people that call themselves christians, that I find really sad and I must say very unchristian in the true meaning of the word. Calling yourself a christian does not mean that you are one and calling yourself not a christian doesn't mean that in your heart you aren't one. God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. There will come a time when God will lift His Spirit from this earth, be ready. I repeat God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas,

Much of the NT is composed of hallucinations. Hallucinations did not end in the first to third century CE. And many such "visions" are induced by things like a lack of sleep, looking at the Sun, too much caffeine, and/or too much alcohol.

On my post of 7-24-2007 at 10:23 AM I would like to make a correction, it may have been a little over a day's time, it happened over a two day period, the 28th and the 29th sorry about that. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

To Concerned the Christian now Liberated: At the Mass on 29 Jan 2000 at St. Luke's Church in Ocean City, Md when the Holy Spirit came into my body and revealed to me that the Eucharist is Jesus, I didn't receive the Eucharist that day, I thought it was all over, having met the whole Trinity in less than a day's time but my job which I refer to as Our Job, God and mine, was just beginning. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Thomas,

The same thing happens to most people when they have a glass of wine. Catholic priests use their daily chalice of wine to interact with the spirits.

To Concerned the Christian now liberated and the rest of the world: The Holy Spirit that came into my body well if you haven't ever met the Holy Spirit personally that there isn't much I can say about it and if other people have personally met the Holy Spirit, I don't know how they would explain it, sometimies maybe we should let God be God and do whatever He does, however He does it. As far as "pretty wingie talking thingie", I have no idea where you came up with that set of words, but when the Holy Spirit came into my body, I did not see him nor did He directly say anything to me, I just knew when He let me know, because in God's Wisdom, He knew I needed to know some things to do the job that He chose me for, and by the way I don't consider it my job but Our Job, God and me. To JESSE and SHEEN: Thank you for the encouragement and what does TK's mean if I may ask? You know there is all this talk about unity but does anyone remember that Jesus also said, "I have come to bring division not unity" and He also said "I have come to bring Fire to the earth and I wish it was already burning", the fire that Jesus is talking about is the consuming fire of the PURE LOVE of God which will burn all the crud, sin, evil or whatever you wish to call it. It is such a shame that so many people that think they are christian and think they are speaking in God's Name don't have a clue, because if God was even remotely like what they present Him to be, well thank God that He isn't like they think that He is. Jesus said to think of God the Father as Abba, which in my language would be translated as either Dad or Daddy in the best sense of the word, a lot of what I read on these sites from people that call themselves christians sure does not even come close to that. God the Father came into my heart and He is Pure Love, it really doesn't matter if anyone believes me or not, time will tell that I am telling the truth. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I agree with Jesse; Thomas Baum's post explains a true member of the "body of Christ", which is "the church".

"You do believe in God? How about Devil?"

Short answer is no, Bgone. and yes. I've looked at your website. In my opinion it's an incoherent meaningless mess.

But thanks for asking

Regards

A Hermit

BGONE,

You make many statements but I never see any references supporting them. And your website also seems to suffer from the same problem. Any reason for this????

Hey A HERMIT

I post a lot too. An idle mind is the Devil's workshop ya know.

Speaking of Devil, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul kinda puts the kerbash on the whole shootin' match. Don't you agree?

Today I'm pointing out why Devil, represented by Benedict 16 wants everyone in hell. Lucifer almost made it last time He attacked heaven and tried to unseat God. With enough new soldiers in his army He might just make it. That's why His budget is so large, the big money needed to get 'leaders' of the masses to make demands like, "go to your churches, temples, synagogues and mosques and pray."

When Lucifer, the being in the ball of fire Moses made the deal with, gets control of heaven He'll declare himself to be God. At present time, while He's raising the new army, He's really happy even though He's not God yet. They're calling Lucifer God and singing His praises like He really was God which does NOT make Lucifer God but does make Him happy. We must have happy Devil. I'm sure you agree.

You do believe in God? How about Devil? Can you tell the difference? Which one does the pope actually represent? How about bin-Laden?

I see; I'm repetitive, arrogant, rude and post too much...

Unlike the sainted Mary Cunningham, who never repeats herself (except when it comes to those scary JacobinCommieNaziatheists) hardly ever posts at all (just multiple times a day) and is unfailngly polite...except for when she calls people Nazis, which is OK `cause she only does that to those aforementioned evil CommieAtheistNazi...whatever..

I'll remind you again of that old saying about looking for motes in other people's eyes. You have a big plank in your own, Ms. Cunningham. You want me to treat you with respect you'll have to learn how to do the same. Accusing me of deception, comparing me to Nazis, insulting my intelligence and my integrity and responding to my comments with nonsense unrelated to what I actually said is not the way to do it.

In my view everyone deserves my respect...until they do something to lose it. You lost it pretty early with your Atheists=Nazis crap, and you haven't done much to regain it. Acknowledging your error in that regard and admitting that you crossed a line would go a long way to improving the dialogue here.

Regards

A Hermit

Bill Lang,

There were a whole 3 Arican popes. I would not call that many. Also, please note when their papcies were in place.

Pope Victor I (189 to 199)
Pope Miltiades (310/311 to 314)
Pope Gelasius I (492 to 496)

Mary Cunningham,

Tha post should never call the kettle black. You post just as much as A Hermit. Actually, I rather like him and his thought processes.

By the way, your post of "I think you're too pompous and sure of yourself to be able to engage in any kind of meaningful exchange.", also applies very well to the Catholic church.

Anyway hermit, whoever you are:

Your paeon to science is irrelevant. All it proves is that the Doctrine of the Church, a religious doctrine, is not scientific and I could have told you that in the first place.

And don't end posts by saying "you're starting to bore me". That's just rude. I don't care if I bore you. I think you're too pompous and sure of yourself to be able to engage in any kind of meaningful exchange. And far too certain of everything to be a good scientist.

A Hermit, you sure post a lot. And here you were posting away on the Weigel--oh! rivers of prose-- & I wrote Norrie was an agnostic and I thought you
(A Hermit)
were an evangelical (you go on about the Anabaptists sometimes) and in your place up pops

Henry James
saying "I'm an atheist" and to acknowledge him as such.

Now my reasoning is: you post an enormous amount--early and often and everywhere--saying pretty much the same thing ,because when one posts so much one does say the same thing, calling everyone 'confused',kind of enthroned on Mt Olympus surrounded by clouds of condescension, why not post in a few other names?

After all when one is so perfect, it is natural to reproduce oneself. In that way, a (self-proclaimed)genius like yourself can be assured of good conversation.

Sorry to disappoint you Ms. Cunningham, but much as I enjoy Henry's comments I am not him, and have no desire to be him. If he even is a him! I mean, we really don't know, do we? (I think Henry James might not actually be his REAL name!!!) Your paranoia is showing again...

Ye, I did read the Norman, article, and you still haven't actually responded to the point I made about it. Yes authority is important, but so is the questioning of authority. You and Norman want us to just bow down and accept the infallible, defect free authority of the Church. In science there is no such thing as "infallible" and nothing is ever "indefectible" (my favourite new word...), so researchers are constantly testing, retesting and challenging each others ideas, methods and conclusions. It's messy, its hard, it's confusing it doesn't offer the comfort of Absolute Truth, but it actually works. Little by little we make progress, we learn how the world works and how we fit into it. No one claims to have the absolute last word on anything, that would shut down the debate and no one would ever learn anything new.

I also skimmed the Berkowitz piece, and it appears to be full of too many errors (particularly regarding Steven Gould and evolution) for me to respond to the whole thing here, but I will note that, unlike you, Berkowitz at least recognizes that not all atheists think alike; that Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, Dennet et al are not identical to the Jacobins who haunt your fevered dreams.

I'll also point out that criticizing Hitchens or Harris does nothing to touch anything I might have said in this forum; I occasionally criticize Harris myself and frankly I have little to no interest in anything that sot Hitchens has to say; in fact I agree with Berkowitz with regards to Hitchens' (and Harris') hysterical emphasis on the evils of religion (I consider such arguments to be on the same level as your atheist=Jacobin=Stalin nonsense) so answering my comments with a link to a Berkowitz article attacking Hitchens is just another non-sequitur on your part.

Please try and do better Ms. Cunningham, you're still not paying attention, still substituting your imaginary enemies in place of what I actually say, and frankly you're starting to bore me...

Regards

A Hermit

Henry James,
Why so many names?
Why must you be
Not one but three?

Here is an excerpt where Berkowitz argues that truth is important, most especially, religious truth..(The Church would agree with him here.)

"Mr. Hitchens anticipates that critics will point to those crimes against humanity, dwarfing religion's sins, committed in the name of secular ideas in the 20th century. He attempts to deflect the challenge with sophistry: "It is interesting to find that people of faith now seek defensively to say that they are no worse than fascists or Nazis or Stalinists."

But who is behaving defensively here? Mr. Hitchens is the one who unequivocally insists that religion poisons everything, and it is Mr. Hitchens who holds out the utopian hope that eradicating it will subdue humanity's evil propensities and resolve its enduring questions.

Nor is his case bolstered by his observation that 20th-century totalitarianism took on many features of religion. That only brings home the need to distinguish, as Mr. Hitchens resolutely refuses to do, between authentic and corrupt, and just and unjust, religious teachings. And it begs the question of why the 20th-century embrace of secularism unleashed human depravity of unprecedented proportions."

Religion is important! The tired arguments of the twentieth century--that awful era of the Englightenment experiment--are past, protestations of Hermit and his Kermits notwithstanding.

Henry James aka AHermit aka Anon (if the post is particularly conceited and condescending),

Problems with determining valid authority is not the same as angels on pins. And your failure to understand Edward Norman and George Weigel is symptomatic of your problems with comprehension not their clarity in writing. If you looked at the Norman lecture--did you? I;ll bet you didn;t!--you can see it was addressed to a gathering of educated Anglican clergy, especially those interested in ecclesiastical law.

Authority is important as you often demonstrate when you refer to yourself! Your kudos, your academic postings--Harvard, isn't it--your refusal to recognize works by John Gray. Now the last is the preeminent professor of European thought now teaching at the LSE. However, you disallowed his commentary on the grounds that you had never heard of him.

Anyway,enough of this! Here is a writeup on the New Atheism. Show it to your friend E Favourite...that is if you are not also E Favourite (as well as AHermie and Henry James and Anon)..A multiple godhead in yourself, wouldn't you say?

http://opinionjournal.com/editorial/feature.html?id=110010341

Thomas Baum,

You noted:

"The catholic Eucharist is Jesus by the way, that is what Jesus said at the Last Supper and that is what He meant and also when the Holy Spirit came into my body on 29 Jan 2000."

And what "pretty wingie talking thingie" accomplished that bit of magic???

And the history jury of many NT exegetes have concluded that the Last Supper scenario was heavily if not completely made up.

Not historic Jesus - Supper and Eucharist: (1a) 1 Cor 10:14-22; (1b) 1 Cor 11:23-25; (2) Mark 14:22-25 = Matt 26:26-29 = Luke 22:15-19a[19b-20]; (3) Did. 9:1-4; (4) John 6:51b-58.

An excerpt from http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/016_Supper_and_Eucharist

At the same time, Luedemann concludes that the portrayal of Jesus celebrating such a ritual on the night before his death is not historical. He is clear that there is "no generic relationship" between any actual final meal and the Lord's Supper understood in cultic terms. He also denies the Passover character of the supper as a Markan creation. Like Meier (below), Luedemann does accept the saying (Mark 14:25) about drinking wine in the kingdom of God as authentic. He concludes: (this saying) "hardly came into being in the early community, for in it Jesus does not exercise any special function for believers at the festal meal in heaven which is imminent. Only Jesus' expectation of a the future kingdom of God stands at the centre, not Jesus as saviour, judge or intercessor."

As your pope spouts the exclusivity of Catholics to access the salvation of Christ and denies others who profess alligence to Christ access to His table in your chuches, his emmisary at the Vatican pledges no more pedophilia but implies what has gone in in "Christ's only true Church" has gone on elsewhere so somehow that takes away the horror of Catholic atrocities against little boys. How many millions have been paid out by Lutherans or Presbyterians, for example, to justify this nonsense reply to a very Catholic problem that has been going on for centuries as Popes, Cardinals and Bishops looked the other way? As long as Cardinal Mahoney in LA and Cardinal Rivera in Mexico run free, not only in the Church but in society as well, as accomplices to perverts like "Father" Aguilar who Mahoney transferred and Rivera is now hiding in the Mexican State of Puebla, the Vatican's words are more empty pledges from pompous, pious pervert protectors in pointy hats.

Of all the posts I've read here, only the one by Thomas Paul Moses Baum comes closes to True Christian thought in my humble opinion. TKs Tom and may God bless your life with the peace that surpasses all understanding.

Jesse

Mary
thank you for recognizing Norrie's true status.

I am an atheist however, and proud of it, if you would so refer to me i would be most stimulated.

now, answer Norrie's earlier question:

how many angels CAN dance on the head of a pin??

the rabbi said: do not do to your neighbor what is hateful to yourself. the rest is commentary.

no one KNOWS what happens when we die.

peace
henry

A Hermit,

We should appreciate that Mary Cunningham is making progress toward the Light.

Many months ago, after first reading a post of mine, she referred to me as an atheist. I protested that I was an agnostic and a Buddhist sympathizer and asked her to please not call me an atheist.

Despite that, she called me an atheist a number of times thereafter.

Her post in this thread is the first time she's referred to me as an agnostic - which I much appreciate. Thank you Mary Cunningham.

The moral: we can all discard our outmoded and erroneous thinking and make progress toward enlightenment.

Best to all.

We sure seem to get caught up in things that are a distraction to say the least. I am a catholic and I cherish my catholic faith, and my job as the New Testament Moses is to tell the whole world that everybody will be in the Kingdom of God or if you prefer the Kingdom of Love, since God is Pure Love. The catholic Eucharist is Jesus by the way, that is what Jesus said at the Last Supper and that is what He meant and also when the Holy Spirit came into my body on 29 Jan 2000, He revealed it to me, thank you Holy Spirit. God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof, the only true religion is taking care of widows and orphans, which basically is the whole human race since we are all brothers and sisters. Thank you Dad for Your Plan, thank you Brother for your obedience to The Plan and thank you Knitting Buddy for bringing The Plan to Fruition. By the way the preceding sentence is referring to God the Trinity; Father-Jesus said to think of Him as our Dad, Brother-Jesus by choosing to become a human being and asking permission from Mary, who freely said her Yes, became humanity's Brother as in the entire human race, Knitting Buddy, the Holy Spirit who knits us together in our mother's womb. Jesus won the keys to hell and spiritual death and He will use them in due time. God has never sent anyone to hell because He can't, you have to build it yourself first. People that slice and dice the bible would be better off throwing the whole bible away, Jesus said a lot of things when He was walking on this planet a while back and if you don't know what He was talking about, don't try to mislead others. The whole bible is true and there is probably plenty in there that I don't know what it means but I don't have too, I am just a messenger and the message is: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable; we are in the sixth day, they are God Days by the way, and night is coming, be ready, the dawning of the seventh day will also be here. It seems like a lot of people will be trying to hide behind their religion but God looks at what you do and why you do it and also what you know. God is so so so much nicer than some of the people that call themselves christians think that He is and sad to say, than some want Him to be. Take care. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Ecumenism is a worthless endeavor. Protestants are only angry over what the Vatican said because it reveals that the Catholic Church hasn't rolled over and accepted the Protestant Deformation.

Ecumenism is a worthless endeavor. Protestants are only angry over what the Vatican said because it reveals that the Catholic Church hasn't rolled over and accepted the Protestant Deformation.

that pile of hogplop could have been summed up in about 3 sentences. way to go weigel shmeigle.

"Disillusioned words like bullets bark
As human gods aim for their mark
Made everything from toy guns that spark
To flesh-colored Christs that glow in the dark
It's easy to see without looking too far
That not much
Is really sacred.

"While preachers preach of evil fates
Teachers teach that knowledge waits
Can lead to hundred-dollar plates
Goodness hides behind its gates
But even the president of the United States
Sometimes must have
To stand naked.

"An' though the rules of the road have been lodged
It's only people's games that you got to dodge
And it's alright, Ma, I can make it."

Bob Dylan, Its All Right Ma

Its only religion you got to dodge!

Now I'm curious about this comment:

"I think the Pope's pronouncement makes sense if you don't want unity with mainline Protestants (some of whom, frankly, are so far from basic Christianity they deny the divinity of Jesus Christ)..."

Which Mainline Protestant denominations deny the divinity of Christ, Ms. Cunningham? The Lutherans? Methodists? Baptists? Name names, cite sources, back it up. Even my somewhat less than mainstream Mennonite upbringing didn't say any such thing. (Didn't teach that the Catholics were the Anti-Christ, either, so you can stop crying "persecution" on that point...)

Regards

A Hermit

S`allright Norrie; keep `em coming.

I got this one:

"Norrie is an agnostic and Hermit an evangelical..."

Well Ms. Cunningham, I had a feeling that you weren't reading my comments past the point where your kneejerk reactions kick in, and the fact that you have me tagged as an evangelical proves it. Thanks for the confirmation of my suspicions.

Maybe in the future you would do me the courtesy of actually reading what I have to say; thinking about it, and responding to the substance instead of lashing out with whatever misconception just popped into your head.

Regards

A (for Agnostic/Atheist) Hermit

Correction: Amenophis IV changed her name to Akhenaten meaning biological child of the sun. Akhetaten means palace of the sun. She used the Israelites to build her heavenly father a palace so He could come down from the sky for a friendly visit. God's palace is a tabernacle and this one in the wilderness. That could be the big house built by Cain that collapsed when she died too ya know.

There's lots of 'basis in fact' in the Bible. Unfortunately it's Egyptian and not Jewish history.

It's rumored that thinking about http://www.hoax-buster.org makes the pope's head hurt. How's your head? Feel the Gun of Hell at it? Now commence rendering,, to God,, OR ELSE.

Why did they put the keys on the papal flag anyhow? Those aren't the *keys to heaven's gate* are they? Pharaoh had a set of those keys too ya know. And so did Hirohito, until MacArthur took over his bankrupt business. Nuclear weapons do that to ya.

Historical Jesus' real name is Amenophis IV. She changed her name to Akhetaten meaning biological child of the sun. Her heavenly father didn't show up at her **3 hour** death on the cross just like Jesus' heavenly father let things go to save you. She preached and taught 'Israelites" (builders), chased the money changers out of God's house, performed miracles, did everything Gospel Jesus did and a little more.

Let us prey: Our father who art in heaven. Hallowed be thy name. Thy kingdom (not democracy) come. Thy will be done, OR ELSE.

Hell is a gold mine, Aztec and Inca gold came from hell too.

A Hermit,

Sorry I got there ahead of you.

I was just following my grandmother's sage advice:

"You have to get up early to beat A Hermit or A Little Person to the Pot of Gold."

Best wishes to you.

Well, I think the Pope's pronouncement makes sense if you don't want unity with mainline Protestants (some of whom, frankly, are so far from basic Christianity they deny the divinity of Jesus Christ) but you would like closer talks with the Orthodox.

Evangelicals--like Hermit ? & suchlike, although funnily enough Chuck Colson, among all the candidates has the best knowledge of the Doctrine of the Church--think Catholics are the Anti-Christ anyway, so there's no mileage there!

Christians need a basis for authority..The Church has three: sacred tradition, the Magesterium (Christian teaching tradition), sacred Scripture. Protestants have only scripture, which can be defective in some cases, and, in any case, they have no central interpreting authority.

Face it: Norrie is an agnostic and Hermit an evangelical. I would not say their disaffection is any problem for the Church.

On another note, is it me, or did Fr Reese post his usual anti-Catholic screed which was subsequently deleted?

Fuji asks: "B-16?"

Pope Benedict the XVI

Or a Honda engine...

http://topendmotorsports.com/jp/engine/motorswaps/engines/honda/b16/

"George Weigel has written, in many column inches, his answer to the question, "How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?""

Damn you , Norrie, you beat me to it...;-)

Mary Cunningham's quote from Edward Norman is quite revealing, I think; he seems to be arguing that, while one cannot rely on the infallibility of textual scriptures which claim to be the Word Of God we can depend on the Church and its representatives to be infallible in determining which texts are "Absolutely True" and in providing the only flawless interpretation of that Absolute Truth. This is just removing the circular reasoning of the scriptural claim of Absolute Truth from the authors to the critics. The Church, we are told, is infallible, "indefectible." And how do we know this? Why because the Church says so, of course.

Looking at my pin, I don't see any angels there...

Regards

A Hermit

Johnson is not alone in debunking Crossan and his group. Crossan states from the start that he has a political point to make and he uses the gospels to make it. Never mind that the so-called gnostic gospels post-date the canonical gospels. In Crossan's mind, these are more authentic for some reason ... even though the early church fathers (writing in the 2nd century) declare them nonsense. Oh well. You have your political agenda. Go on with it.

B-16?

Fuji,

I read Luke Johnson's works early in my healing process. His reasoning did not "wash" as it was just more NT "repeats" as he simply attempted to dismiss the NT historical review processes going on "full blast" for the last 200 plus years.

His "major" contribution:

"The Real Jesus : The Misguided Quest for the Historical Jesus and Truth of the Traditional Gospels (Harper San Francisco 1997)" is 178 pages (paperback) of "reasoning" that is overwhelmed by the over 100 books written with significantly better research by other NT exegetes as noted for example at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

With respect to B16's "new" book, as noted earlier in another discussion,

"B16's "new" book is simply the NT rehashed once again. For a better buy, see Father Raymond Brown's An Introduction to the New Testament, 1997 (878 pages). The book is "Catholic" approved (imprimatur and Nihil obstat) and more than likely was used by B16 to prep his book (416 pages). Father Brown also reviews the historical Jesus movement in more than two pages.

Another "view from a recent review":

"For this reason, Crossan's new book _God and Empire: Jesus Against Rome, Then and Now_ (2007) represents far more forward-oriented thinking about Christian tradition than does Ratzinger's well-publicized new book. "

George Weigel has written, in many column inches, his answer to the question, "How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?"

And Mary Cunningham has picked up where he left off.

George Weigel has written, in many column inches, his answer to the question, "How many angels can stand on the head of a pin?"

And Mary Cunningham has picked up where he left off.

Anon,

As with you, I was bred, born and brainwashed in the Roman/Latin Catholic Church. I rarely miss Sunday Mass but after escaping the 60 years of "brainwash", I simply enjoy the tradition and songs knowing full well what history is now telling us about our Church. I highly recommend the reading the books listed at http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html as a way to start your own healing process.

Concerned, you owe it to yourself to read any of the works by Luke Timothy Johnson, who effectively debunks much of Crossan's work.

Mr Weigel, well stated.

I interpret the Pope's recent comments are more of a change in emphasis (reminder of what the RC church has always believed) than a change in doctrine; while Vatican II emphasized the reaching-out part, his statements reiterated the 'we believe we're the most rightly-ordered expression' stance; although sometimes it comes close to saying 'the rest of you are flat out wrong and possibly doomed'. As a Christian non-Cathoic, I have great respect for the RC position that God did not intend His church to be fractured as it is. However, I must reject the RC's man-made anti-Biblical doctrines at some points, ergo I stand outside the RC church.

Dear 'liberated'; while you may believe that reality and history now conclude the stuff you wrote, many other learnd people disagree. You're entitled to your interpretation of the evidence, but the readers ought to understand that other interpretations are held by many scholars. Many conclude that Jesus said exactly what is recorded in the 4 Gospels.

I find the points fairly valid.

I don't think anyone should be surprised or offended because a church makes a claim to authority. If it didn't I would see the church as hardly willing to exist.

The mafia is all 'fractured up' too. It began as an idea by a single person, a Christ of a sorts that established but one organization. We can be sure the same things that are happening in the church will template with precision what happened and continues to happen to the mafia. There are many Godfathers but only one God. God is the best job there is so there are many applicants just 'dying' to get hired.

There's a striking difference between the mafia and the churches. The mafia is required by law to pay taxes on their income and real estate, tax evasion being one of their major sins. The mafia does offer a little something in return for the money while the churches give nothing in return. $660,000,000.00 all came from suckers putting the money on the plate and attempting to avoid hell by leaving 'it' to the church.

There's great news. The Bible, the foundation of all three great faiths is now a proved literary hoax. http://www.hoax-buster.org has the proof and millions, perhaps billions by now know. It's just connecting those mafia-church circuits in the brain that's left.

The mafia holds a real gun to people's heads and collects free protection money, pay up and we won't blow your head off. The church holds the gun of hell to people's heads and collects protection money, pay up and the pope or 'family head' won't condemn you to hell.

Rejoice!! Thank God!! We need a special day of thanksgiving for the Bible being proved a hoax.

Mr. Weigel,

I find your theological interpretation of Benedict's pronouncement to be right on. I especially appreciate your interpretation of Benedict's intent (which I agree with): to take a step forward in true and frank ecumencial dialogue (especially with the Orthodox), rather than a malicious blow to ecumenical relations as the media has portrayed it.

And further in the lecture (it really is a good one, key sentence asterixed at end):

"Sermons preached in order to promote Christian unity, for example, almost never include the Doctrine of the Church itself as among the reasons for disunity and the greatest stumbling block in ecumenism. The matter is, however, absolutely crucial: the question of authority - of the means by which truth is known to be true - is the very basis of all religious association.

If sacred writings could stand independently of time and circumstance, if they could speak, as it were, for themselves, there would be some mitigation. But texts require exposition and explanation; the cultural assumptions which determined the manner in which the information they convey was established have to be interpreted. It is the living Church which does this, and the process is a creative one. The body which in the first place distinguished which texts carried authentic truth about Christ and which were corrupted by, for example, folk miracles or miraculous fantasies (and there were plenty of them circulating in the first two centuries), is still called upon to deploy its gifts of indefectibility to extricate the person of Christ from the written word. It is the last claim, made by the historic Churches [Norman refers here to the Orthodox and Catholic Churches] which Anglicans appear to deny. In its scepticism about the infallible office of the universal Church, Anglicanism is unavoidably Protestant in character, however much of historic doctrine it may otherwise have retained faithfully, and however attentive it has been to regularity in episcopal ordination.

*The historic Doctrine of the Church, which it rejected at the time of the Reformation, is the one which defines authority. Anglicans have not yet decided upon a substitute.*"

(Norman left the Church of England and became a Catholic in 2004).

Well, Tim, I think Weigel was trying to end on a Christian unity note. Also, it gave him a chance to refer to John Paul II and he loved that man, and now reveres his memory.

But what Benedict is doing is just stating the obvious and in doing so outraging Christians like Fr Reese, although not Orthodox Christians, at whom I believe the statement is aimed.

There has been a lot of vague talk about Christian unity--ecumenical courtesy really--but union cannot come with the Protestant churches whose basic definition is they broke with the authority of the Catholic Church & affirm *only* the authority of scripture. Thus what is separating the two divisions of Christianity is the "Doctrine of the Church", something the Church cannot deny and still remain the Catholic Church!

As Edward Norman said in his lecture to the Lambeth Convention:

"The problem with a "Doctrine of the Church" is in determining how "the People of God" may be identified when there exists, as there has virtually always existed, a division within Christianity.

This is compounded by the insistence of some Protestants, in the last five centuries, that no Church is possessed of an indefectible body of teaching, anyway, and that the commission of Christ is in reality distributed to a number of different traditions, some of which, though entirely national and local - as the Church of England was before its replication overseas - claim to be self-sufficient in Christian understanding. Christian believers in this condition have sought to establish their authenticity by reference to Scripture.

The difficulty here is that the authority of Scripture derives from the body which selected and canonized it: the Church."

"Authority in the Anglican Communion",

http://justus.anglican.org/resources/misc/norman98.html

Concerned, many popes in the past were Africans!
Dead white men are not always the problem, you have to get over your hate!

Christian Now Liberated:

Wrong!!! - The teachings of the church has been in unbroken succession and the formulation of the mass is thousands of years old.

The Pope has been appointed as the leader of the church; following in the tradition of St. Peter.

St. Peter was appointed by Christ to be the leader of the Apostles (Matthew 16:18-20) to continue to build God's true church and be the overseer of the gospel and God's chosen people.

The Pope is not a leader in the sense that you are thinking of! So many make such an erroneous mistake!

The Pope's mission is to be a servant to his flock and to serve mankind in the teachings of Christ and to oversee the church and protect it from heresy.

The Pope is not a king!!! The Pope is a spokesman for the church.

If only Islam had such a spokesman maybe the war on terror would be over and maybe Islam would be a peaceful religion like so many of its follower claim.

The Mass may seem to be at odds with you but that's because the spirit doesn't dwell in you! Therefore you don't understand what it means to worship God in purity!

Obviously you have know idea what the Mass is about. Maybe you should attend and see for yourself! Or I would recommend reading the Catechism of the Catholic Church to understand what the Catholic Church is all about before you slander the church! People like you pass quick judgment without any knowledge or credibility.

Be honest! Don't be a liar and deceiver by spreading fallacies of a subject that you know nothing about. I use to be like you! I use to slander the church but that was because I didn't I understand it!

I hope one day you will see the truth like I did.

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life.

"The absolute Truth is Christ..." says Tim.

Well, I wouldn't even go that far...;-) The only thing approaching an "absolute truth" is that we are all fallible human beings trying to make sense of the world around us. That should be our starting point, not declarations about the unassailable "truth" of whichever of the many available religious allegories we've adopted.

Regards

A Hermit

Hermit, the martyr stuff does not seem to fit into the rest of what Doug had to say and he took focus off a good piece by throwing it in there. For what purpose i don't know! Your point is well taken in that we are left to decide who is a true martyr and who is not. This being another kind of ridiculous human exercise. (Mathew Chapter 7:21 "Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.) Did the martyr do the will of the church and get accolades for this or did he do the will of God -- and how do we know even this much?

Only God can search a man's heart to know the true intentions of his martyrdom. Perhaps we should all leave such judgments for God to make. We may even be surprised when we find out who really were the true martyrs. Most will probably not be the ones who have been anointed by some church official and many anointed may even be scorned.

The absolute Truth is Christ but yes no person or institution fully represents the truth of Christ. Is there a Church or a person without error; none except Christ. All churches are just an approximation of the truth. Some come closer than others but Jesus is full of grace and mercy and the work of God is to believe, not to be perfect.

"One part of the one Church of Christ has achieved full unity, as the late Pope John Paul II taught -- and that is the Church of martyrs. Having given their lives for Christ, and thus having borne the fullness of witness to the truth of Christ, the martyrs now live in the fullness of unity with Christ that continues to elude the Church in history."

An interesting thought. I wonder if the Catholic and Calvinist and Lutheran martyrs who tortured and killed each other in all those religious wars I grew up learning about really all live in saintly harmony somewhere...seems a little unlikely to me.

I was raised on stories of Mennonite martyrs, who died for their faith at the hands of those Catholic, Lutheran and Calvinist saints. Did they die for Christ, too, or were they really unrepentant heretics who deserved to suffer in fire, in this world and the next?

Hopefully we can all stick to talking these days...but it seems to me the conversation is made more difficult by paternalistic assertions that one side is in possession of the absolute Truth. Unless one is willing to accept that one's own beliefs may contain errors and that the dialogue with others might lead to corrections, not just of the other side's errors but of one's own as well, it will be difficult to make much progress.

Regards

A Hermit

The basic problem is the Catholic pope "cult" culture that has grown over the centuries i.e. only the pope "talks" to God and the pope cannot error in matters of dogma.

Hmmm, well history and realism are catching up with cults of any kind.

One definition of a cult:

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader

e.g. 1 )Muslims and their Mohammed, and the clerics, ayatollahs, imams and "angel freaks" who follow the illiterate, warmongering, hallucinating Arab's koranic ways 2) "Jesus Freaks" like Bob Jones' followers 3) "Latin Mass /Catholic only/"angel loving" Filiciders brainwashed by the likes of B16 and the previous all white male, "celibate, "aarpie", European "charismatics" called popes.

Then there are the foundations of this pope "cult" culture.

What reality and history now conclude:

Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and pagan sects. These embellishments also include all the scriptural references to papal authority and Rock foundations.

e.g. See Professor Crossan's book, The Historical Jesus:

John 14: 26 not historic ( 62-. Spirit under Trial: (1) 1Q: Luke 12:11-12 = Matt
10:19-20; (2) Mark 13:11 = Matt 10: 19-20 = Luke 21:14-15; (3) John 14:26.)

Matt 16: 18-19 not historic (73- Who Is Jesus?: (1) Gos. Thom. 13; (2a) Mark
8:27-30 = Matt 16:13-20 = Luke 9:18-21; (2b) Gos. Naz. 14; (2c) John 6:67-69.)

1 Timothy- not written by St. Paul (See Crossan’s “In Search of Paul”, Harper, San
Francisco, 2004, p.105)

2 Peter 1:20
Since Schillebeeckx basically ruled out prophecies by concluding God does not know
the future, one can rule out the infallible nature of this verse.

Also from Raymond Brown’s, An Introduction to the New Testament, 2 Peter was
the last canonical work written i.e. ~ 130 AD, author unknown. Tis a bit dated for use in claiming infallibility plus the verse is not from Jesus or Peter but some possible remembrance of a scribe.

From another source:
Also think about the logic (or lack thereof).
“I believe the Bible is inspired.” “Why?” “Because it says so.” Would you or anyone let that logic pass if it came from the followers of any other book
or person? “I believe x is inspired because x says so.” Fill in the blanks:

x=Pat Robertson
x=the ayatolloah Sistani (sp?)
x=David Koresh
x=the Koran”
x=B16

The basic problem is the Catholic pope "cult" culture that has grown over the centuries i.e. only the pope "talks" to God and the pope cannot error in matters of dogma.

Hmmm, well history and realism are catching up with cults of any kind.

One definition of a cult:

A religion or religious sect generally considered to be extremist or false, with its followers often living in an unconventional manner under the guidance of an authoritarian, charismatic leader

e.g. 1 )Muslims and their Mohammed, and the clerics, ayatollahs, imams and "angel freaks" who follow the illiterate, warmongering, hallucinating Arab's koranic ways 2) "Jesus Freaks" like Bob Jones' followers 3) "Latin Mass /Catholic only/"angel loving" Filiciders brainwashed by the likes of B16 and the previous all white male, "celibate, "aarpie", European "charismatics" called popes.

Then there are the foundations of this pope "cult" culture.

What reality and history now conclude:

Jesus, the illiterate Jewish peasant/carpenter possibly suffering from hallucinations, has been characterized anywhere from the Messiah from Nazareth to a mythical character from mythical Nazareth. Analyses of his life by many contemporary NT scholars (e.g. Professors Crossan, Borg and Fredriksen, On Faith panelists)via the NT and related documents have concluded that only about 30% of Jesus' sayings and ways noted in the NT were authentic. The rest being embellishments (e.g. miracles)/hallucinations made/had by the NT authors to impress various Christian, Jewish and pagan sects. These embellishments also include all the scriptural references to papal authority and Rock foundations.

e.g. See Professor Crossan's book, The Historical Jesus:

John 14: 26 not historic ( 62-. Spirit under Trial: (1) 1Q: Luke 12:11-12 = Matt
10:19-20; (2) Mark 13:11 = Matt 10: 19-20 = Luke 21:14-15; (3) John 14:26.)

Matt 16: 18-19 not historic (73- Who Is Jesus?: (1) Gos. Thom. 13; (2a) Mark
8:27-30 = Matt 16:13-20 = Luke 9:18-21; (2b) Gos. Naz. 14; (2c) John 6:67-69.)

1 Timothy- not written by St. Paul (See Crossan’s “In Search of Paul”, Harper, San
Francisco, 2004, p.105)

2 Peter 1:20
Since Schillebeeckx basically ruled out prophecies by concluding God does not know
the future, one can rule out the infallible nature of this verse.

Also from Raymond Brown’s, An Introduction to the New Testament, 2 Peter was
the last canonical work written i.e. ~ 130 AD, author unknown. Tis a bit dated for use in claiming infallibility plus the verse is not from Jesus or Peter but some possible remembrance of a scribe.

From another source:
Also think about the logic (or lack thereof).
“I believe the Bible is inspired.” “Why?” “Because it says so.” Would your
anyone let that logic pass if it came from the followers of any other book
or person? “I believe x is inspired because x says so.” Fill in the blanks:

x=Pat Robertson
x=the ayatolloah Sistani (sp?)
x=David Koresh
x=the Koran”
x=B16

Very good description of the problem. You really can't have a discussion about reconciling differences unless it's clear about what each side believes. The pope stated that he believes that by stating exactly and clearly the beliefs of Catholicism each side is more likely to make progress.

I've read that the pope is honestly hoping for Protestants, Anglicans, Eastern Orthodox, and other Christian denominations to make similar statements about their core beliefs.

So far I've not seen any which does not mean there will not be any, but for those communities without a clear single individual to make a statement about their beliefs, or for those denominations which believe that personal interpretation of holy scriptures are important it's going to be difficult to produce.