Quitting a Community

Nah, totalitarianism always ends up taking the Right to extremes, even if it claims to be doing it in the name of something cooperative like socialism or Christianity. :)

Social anarchy might be as leftward as you can get, as rightward as you can get is anarchic-in-the-bad-way warlordism. Probably that scale just bends around and eats its own tail. Left-right is based on the layout of a building, not some logical absolute, remember. :)

Anarchists, most libertarians and a few others are not to the left of me. The political line running from anarchy on the far right to totalitarianism on the far left.

Nieburs remarks about "cups of coffee" reminds me when the predominantly Mormon high school choir sang at a Lutheran church one Sunday in Utah, there were amazed and horrified at the big vats of coffee awaiting the congregation after the service.

I have trouble imagining what's *not* to the left of your good self, Garyd. :)

How unflinchingly absurd. He has a long association with people on the left if not the far left of American political thought along with their various bag men and you think some how he isn't a leftist in thought word and deed?

If you like leftists fine that's your choice but to pretend Obama isn't a leftist is at best disingenuous. His web site certainly indicates that he is on the left of the political spectrum.

I believe Obama is exactly what his associations paint him to be. A left wing Chicago Politician of the Old School.

" Garyd:

Upon what then should I judge the content of his character and more importantly his ability to judge the character of others?"

Oh, what he *does,* perchance? His own words on what that church *did* mean to him, rather than whatever clips you can use to try and cast unsubstantiated suspicion on him?

I don't think you have to look far to see that he has often been *faulted* by the Right for hanging out with too many different kinds of people, from all kinds of walks of life, ...One minute he's an 'elitist' for being educated and intelligent, the next he's a robot programmed somehow by a poor black church's preacher, this week, while people still claim he's also 'really' a Muslim, or a nonbeliever.

Then wonder about all the 'contradictions' *they invented* while not listening to the man, or simply claiming that they know better what he believes than he does.

All very racist and patronizing, I think, though people won't say it directly.

Upon what then should I judge the content of his character and more importantly his ability to judge the character of others?

If all you ever hang out with is Radical leftist and their money men you are likely going to view things in there terms. If all you hang out with are Klansmen and their money men then you will likely see things in their terms. Frankly of the two I find the Klansmen eaiser to deal with simply because they are fairly straight forward in there approach. Leftist however tend to see themselves as the righteous saviors of us all while a good many of us see what they offer as salvation to be the worst sort of slavery.

Sounds to me like maybe we shouldn't have religious tests for office, then, Garyd, even in the media.

Funny how you seem to believe that your beliefs are the essential definition of goodness and morality... Until they aren't, cause you'd rather cast suspicion by association, ...not even connecting the matter to any policies or real issues, but instead an accusation that his 'faith' isn't 'real,' cause he left a church with some preachers who were doing things that allowed the media to make the election about *them* rather than Senator Obama.

I think it shows the lack of character of the *Swiftboaters,* first demanding he leave that church, now calling him "faithless" because, after a further circus promised to break out, doing just that, for clear and responsible reasons.

There's too much at stake for him to put his campaign and our hopes at the mercy of guest preachers, as I've said.

Besides, the media should have better things to do right now. Like cover *policy.*

This assumes, of course, that joining Rev Wright's church wasn't an act of political expedience on the part of an ambitious left wing Chicago politician in the first play. A fact that is made very clear by the rest of the people he chose to become associated with prolonged periods of time.

Steven,

The issues I have with Mr. Obama stem from the fact that it took 20+ years to understand the "truth" being taught at his church. I've been at my current church for just about 8 years, and I know EXACTLY where my pastor stands on critical arguments. It's a bit comical that, in the middle of the presidential nomination process, Mr. Obama all of a sudden disassociates himself from his church. Coincidence? I think not. It is hardly noble to sacrifice one's faith and community in order to garner more presidential votes.

Pagan,
You are exactly right.
It is the "situation" which became "intolerable".
It was not Obama's presented for our consumption claim that his fundemental disgreement with Rev. Wright's racist vitriolic ranting that was the cause for his departure.
Thank yoy for showing him to be a liar.

" hammerhead:

"A "decision" would have actually been inspired by some thought process."

Ah, so now the 'elistist' wasn't *thinking* in all this time since the media barrage demanding he withdraw from his church began? Standing by his Church until the situation became intolerable, and pastors started using his prominence opportunistically?

"The scurrying from the church Obama has displayed is much more of a instictive reflex action inspired by the disinfecting light of day being allowed in."

Hardly. I think it's something more like there being too much at stake for Mr. Obama, too many people counting on him, to allow any guest preacher to come along and make gaffes and inflammatory remarks for the media and Swiftboaters to distract America with.

At first, the cons was demanding he leave immediately, now they say he's some kind of 'deserter' when he *has.*

Frankly, Wright strained relations, and this last thing was just the last straw. Seems simple enough to me, rather than these vague suspicions and silly theories about his 'unthinking' ...what... Blackness?

"The fact that Obama's reflex was to jetison 20 years of faith,"

Jettison twenty years of faith?
What, by leaving a building?

Didn't you hear? They came out with a portable version of faith some time ago.

I certainly can agree with your article, Professor Neibuhr.

I left my congregation after, frankly, just hearing enough of how bad "the world" is. How nothing of "the world" is to be trusted, how nothing about "the world" is relevant. And finally asking myself, who is "the world." My answer was: me and my family.

What I miss most is the community. The good people with whom I shared my time. It honestly feels ?? like a divorce for me. The community was the primary thing that kept me going in the church for so long, but at some point that level of cognitive dissonance breaks down and one realizes there can be no more "living with myself" over things proclaimed as "truth" and with the head-nodding that goes along in such a community of faith.

Thank goodness it's not a standard to have the measure of our integrity based upon who we listen to at the pulpit each Sunday. As a non-politician, I'm thankful I don't have to answer to the venom that is regularly spewed from my former pastor.

You know, Obama was damned-if-he-did, damned-if-he-didn't leave his church congregation. He cannot have made a decision that would appease everyone. Personally I think he did the correct thing.

The only thing he could have done to appease a Republican is to stay in the church, and give them plenty of ammo to hurl at him regarding his "anti-patriotism" and "abysmal integrity." Anything else will be criticized, so it's pretty predictable.

A "decision" would have actually been inspired by some thought process.
The scurrying from the church Obama has displayed is much more of a instictive reflex action inspired by the disinfecting light of day being allowed in.
The fact that Obama's reflex was to jetison 20 years of faith, in favor of clinging to his selfaggrandizing quest speaks volumes as to who he really is.

Gus:

I don't know if Albert Blackwell knows this, but two years ago I was voted off the property in the church where my Mother was baptized in a town here in Northeast Alabama where her family goes back to the 1850's.
Vote was 32-20.
I am party to blame, cause of my flamboyant personality--one problem was I was ousted from the local library in a disagreement that stemmed from me writing a letter of recommendation to Yale Div School for the local Pastor's Third Son--but silly stuff like an ill timed reference to the cornerstone on the church as an emblem of family political power in the also came into play.
As for Obama and the larger picture; do google up Anniston, Al Star's Brandt Ayers column in his June 1 paper.
Closing reference on coal miners in Inez, West Virginia may tell the tale.
Hoping the gods bring you to Furman if not this fall; then soon.

STephen Fox
Collinsville, Alabama

Yes, leaving a church is emotionally very difficult. I sympathize with Obama. In my own experience and in a different church, I have seen a pastor, motivated by his own greed and ego, who destroyed a church through lies and manipulations. Who would think that a pastor would lie and manipulate? Among church-going christians, pastors start out having the benefit of the doubt and are not only trusted, but put on pedestals. In my case, it took many years for me to realize that the lies and manipulations were happening. Many in my old congregation still refuse to see the reality and put their focus of worship on the pastor rather than God.

I have since left that congregation for another, and so I have no reason to question Obama's motivations. His pastor quite obviously has an ego. But any parishioner who started from a basis of inherent trust would be slow to see his faults. Belonging to a religious community is not just a choice based on logic, it is also very much based on emotion.

Unless of course you are a leftist politician seeking a high elective office.