Hawking and the pope

100 years of history in the quest for unified field theory.

My question wasn't about unified field theory, but about the origin and structure of the universe. When pieces of the puzzle remain out of the reach of the scientific method, then the intellectually responsible course is to admit that no one knows those missing pieces, instead of holding beliefs about them. To claim that any scientific inquiry on the topic will forever uncover one mystery after another is to claim to possess knowledge that one doesn't have.

"What is the basis for making that claim of fact?"

100 years of history in the quest for unified field theory.

As far as "God Particle" goes, google it.

Meanwhile, we have the deluded, faith firmly planted in the hubris of intelligence, claiming that science will answer all.

That's a straw man that would cause Ray Bolger to be jealous. No rational science would claim with certainty that science will be able to answer every question.

In fact they will just find another mystery box since that is what exists all the way down.

What is the basis for making that claim of fact?

"...those who put their faith in science to answer the big questions about the origin and structure of the universe are bound to disappointment."

How do you know that? Or, do you simply believe that?

"God particle"

What, exactly, is that?

"In fact they will just find another mystery box since that is what exists all the way down."

How do you know that? Or, do you simply believe that?

"Meanwhile, we have the deluded, faith firmly planted in the hubris of intelligence, claiming that science will answer all."

By "we", are you referring to yourself?

The scientific method is a procedure for investigating the mysteries of the universe and it works well. Those investigations have the actual proof of technology which has improved the life of billions. However, those who put their faith in science to answer the big questions about the origin and structure of the universe are bound to disappointment.

Gravity has been mathematically incompatible with the other basic forces of nature for 100 years and remained unresolved. Those looking at the problem with high energy physics just continue to unwrap deeper and deeper mysteries with no end in sight, constantly promising that the next zillion dollar accelerator will yield the "God particle". In fact they will just find another mystery box since that is what exists all the way down.

Those looking at the heavens for the answers to the big questions have even further mysteries to which they invoke giant fudge factors like, dark matter and dark energy to keep their theories on life support. Meanwhile the problem of neutrino flux ultimately hides the earliest beginnings of the universe from their probes and investigations of the fine structure constant demonstrates that the laws of physics may not even be constant throughout the universe.

Meanwhile, we have the deluded, faith firmly planted in the hubris of intelligence, claiming that science will answer all.

Yeah, right.

I'm looking forward to reading Hawking's book because I consider him to be a wonderful writer and a man of knowledge. The possibilities that he describes for the future of our existence fascinate me and resonate with my understanding of the world in which we live. For those who do not accept a world without a benevolent deity who looks over us, I would encourage them to brush up on their knowledge of science. That is often where mystery and peace begin.

Herb Silverman

You wrote, " But here's a more incredible hypothesis, devoid of any evidence, that many believe: A benevolent deity always existed in nothingness, and then created a universe. Billions of years later, he decided he was lonely and created human beings. His only interest in humans is in how much they love him and how they worship him. When humans die, they will either be rewarded or punished for eternity based solely on whether they believed this to be true."

That is rather incredible, where did you come up with this?

You then wrote, "Even more incredible to me is the belief of millions of Catholics each Sunday that they are literally eating the body and drinking the blood of Christ, despite chemical or DNA evidence that wafers and wine remain wafers and wine."

I am not one of them because whenever I receive the Catholic Eucharist, I "know", it used to be a "belief" of mine but now it is "knowledge", that it is the Body and Blood of Jesus and the reason that I "know" this is that the Holy Spirit revealed this to me.

I would imagine that there is no "scientific evidence" of the Holy Spirit either.

You then wrote, "This is quite a contrast to St. Augustine. When asked what God did before making the world, Augustine replied, "He was creating a Hell for people who ask questions like that.""

This is not true, for if one were to "wake up in hell", so to speak, one would come to the realization that they built it themself.

In God's Plan, which God has had since before creation, God became One of us and won the keys to the "netherworld", hell and death (spiritual and physical), and will use them in due time, God's Time.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Ommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm....

Aummmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

Amennnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnnn.. AND now Sing

EKLAhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh-i.

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PEACE,PAZ,SHALOM,SALAAM,AHIMSA,MIR, ZHINGYU..
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..... Credit "JJ" http://onwapo.com

To clarify, I don't necessarily agree with Hawking since we don't have the knowledge to say with certainty how the universe came to be. I would emphasize, however, that any assertion that the universe came into existence through a process that did not involve gods is not necessarily atheist. That's because it's possible that gods exist who did not or could not create the universe. The cosmologies of the ancient Greeks and Norse had non-creator gods.

About the Catholic Commentary review, the question "why is there something rather than nothing" rests on unfounded assumptions. One is that nothingness exists. Another is that events require agency, not just causes. That's because "why" implies motive and purpose, not just cause. So the intellectually responsible course is to drop those assumptions without making opposite assumptions. That revises the question to "How did the universe come to be."

Also, the statement "the universe is a totality of physical causes that do not explain or cause themselves" is an assumption and not a fact. We can't rule out the possibility that the causes do explain or cause themselves.

It was Friedrich Nietzsche who saw most clearly that if the totality of being is not meaningful and has no purpose, then it follows that in factual terms the human race is the most deluded and confused of the animals and that the moral reality of the world is nihilism.

Nietzsche may have been more intelligent than me in many ways, but on this issue he was full of offal. He apparently assumed that meaning and purpose have to be inherent in the universe, as if humans weren't capable of creating our own meanings and purposes. He was falling victim to the false dichotomy of absolutism.

What Hawking has come up with is a HYPOTHESIS. He's not positive about it. It still needs to be tested.

Unlike religion, which froze its answers in amber thousands of years ago, science will indeed go on to test that hypothesis. What might possibly happen as a result of that? "There are two possible outcomes: if the result confirms the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery. If the result is contrary to the hypothesis, then you've made a discovery." -- Enrico Fermi

Religion, OTOH, never tests anything. To assuage the massive insecurities of its followers (and not a few of its leaders), it must constantly (and repetitively) assert that it has an absolute lock on the truth, which may never, ever be so much as questioned, let alone tested. "Philosophy is questions that may never be answered. Religion is answers that may never be questioned."

Science is responsible for civilization. Look at the world around you: medicine that's doubled the human lifespan in the last century, transportation available to the average citizen that kings thruout history couldn't even dream about, electric lighting, television, computers, GPS, cell phones, space travel, ... heck, even stuff as mundane as vinyl siding. How much of it resulted from faith and prayer? Zero, that's how much!

Religion is all talk, mostly lies. Science is where the real action is.

Hawking may eventually turn out to be either right or wrong. Whichever, it'll be other scientists who prove it. Religion, as always, will have nothing meaningful to say on the subject.

The Universe doesn't 'need' a Creator, certainly not a Creator as envisioned by countless societies. Humans, however, do "Need" to create one.

Herb Silverman's treatment of the theistic view is a straw man. At least, treat the strongest versions of those views you disagree with.

For a critique of Hawking's view that does not simply render it a straw man, take a look at this piece from a young atheist turned catholic: http://catholic-commentary.com/2010/09/09/stephen-hawkings-new-book/

Whether god existing or not ,we would be died one day...

Whether god existing or not we have to work hard every day for our life.

Whether god existing or not our body is getting older everyday and stepping forward to the death.

So let's watch ourselves carefully with peaceful mind...you will see

The thought manifests as the word; The word manifests as the deed; The deed develops into habit; And habit hardens into character. So watch the thought and its ways with care, And let it spring from love Born out of concern for all beings.

Cal me intellectually lazy, but I don't need M-Theory, whatever that is, or even the Big Bang Theory necessarily to come to the conclusion that God is an out-dated, fantastical, and rather silly idea. As an atheist, I thought Hawking's statements were a little embarrassing.

In comparing science with traditional religion, the most striking difference is not the conclusions that are reached but the different methodologies of attaining those conclusions. As Herb says, scientists test their theories and try to find facts that will support them or disprove them. Traditional religion, on the other hand, demands blind faith and reacts aggressively to facts that challenge doctrine.

ZER0LIN:

1) Catholics do believe that they are eating the body and blood of Christ. While some may do this to reflect on the broken body of Christ, the primary reason is to become one with Christ and to share eternal life with him. Here are some Bible verses to back this up. I chose only one passage (from John, chapter 6), though there are others that support this. Pay special attention to verses 54 through 56. Perhaps, ZeroIn, it is you who should read a Bible.

(Jesus said:)
47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48I am that bread of life.

49Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.

52The Jews therefore strove among themselves, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat?

53Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you.

54Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day.

55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed.

56He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him.

57As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

58This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.

and 2) What bearing does Herb's current position as President (and Founder) of the Secular Coalition of America have on his ability to make spiritual parallels?

One of the comments made above requires a response. It is: "Being that you're the Founder and President of the Secular Coalition for America, you should probably avoid drawing spiritual parallels. They fail miserably." Given that the Catholic Church has been making comments for the past two thousand years on matters it knows nothing about, Dr. Silverman's insightful comments are a welcome counterbalance to their lies.

In 2007, renowned physicists Paul Steinhardt and Neil Turok published a book entitled “Endless Universe” in which they “contend that what we think of as the moment of creation was simply part of an infinite cycle of titanic collisions between our universe and a parallel world.” According to their theory, “the Big Bang was not the beginning of time but the bridge to a past filled with endlessly repeating cycles of evolution, each accomplished by the creation of new matter and the formation of new galaxies, stars, and planets.” The concept of a creator god is even more unnecessary in this model and gets around the problem in the model suggested by Hawking in which the universe is created ex nihilo. Renowned Physicist Victor Stenger, in his book “God: The Failed Hypothesis”, claims that science has unequivocally shown that the existence of a creator god is simply impossible. Thus, there is a growing number of highly-regarded scientists who are publicly denying both the existence of and necessity of a creator god. The time has long past for the so-called “faith community” to take notice and to abandon their superstitious, outdated, and foolish beliefs.

In 2007, renowned physicists Paul Steinhardt and Neil Turok published a book entitled “Endless Universe” in which they “contend that what we think of as the moment of creation was simply part of an infinite cycle of titanic collisions between our universe and a parallel world.” According to their theory, “the Big Bang was not the beginning of time but the bridge to a past filled with endlessly repeating cycles of evolution, each accomplished by the creation of new matter and the formation of new galaxies, stars, and planets.” The concept of a creator god is even more unnecessary in this model and gets around the problem in the model suggested by Hawking in which the universe is created ex nihilo. Renowned Physicist Victor Stenger, in his book “God: The Failed Hypothesis”, claims that science has unequivocally shown that the existence of a creator god is simply impossible. Thus, there is a growing number of highly-regarded scientists who are publicly denying both the existence of and necessity of a creator god. The time has long past for the so-called “faith community” to take notice and to abandon their superstitious, outdated, and foolish beliefs.

Man created religion
Religion created Gods
Men, Religion and Gods divided earth
They divided hearts....

ZEROLIN - Catholics do believe they are actually eating and drinking the body and blood of Christ - this is one of the biggest distinctions between Lutherans and Catholics. Trust me, I was Catholic for 12 years. If you are Catholic, you really need do some reading or visit your priest. Any religion is a suspension of reality and science.

1. Catholics don't think they're "eating the body of Christ" when they take communion. They take communion while reflecting on the broken body of Christ and the blood he shed on the cross for your lazy behind. Read a bible. At least once.

2. Catholicism is a Roman distillation of Christianity. Christianity is a brand of Judaism distinguishable only by its acceptance of Jesus as the Christ (Greek for "messiah"). Christianity != Catholicism. People for whom the pope is the personification of Christianity are already ignorant.

3. God loved you first. The Bible BEGINS (this is to say that if you ever read one, you'd start...) with the following assertion:

God created man for fellowship. To walk and talk with...not to have His behind kissed by.

Being that you're the Founder and President of the Secular Coalition for America, you should probably avoid drawing spiritual parallels. They fail miserably

Hawking is working with flawed data, therefore, he is wrong. Seeking is still as vital today as it will be tomorrow. A new science is coming and that is certain, Godel, Cantor, Riemann discovered paths like clues hinting at the way decades ago, but today, the community is still lost.
We don't know Maxwell, yet and we are so cocky in our certainties that are flawed at inception, we are fools to even consider this work as a serious proof of anything.

Subrahmanyan Chandrasekhar, Nobel physicist, in 1959 invited me to the University of Chicago's Yerkes Observatory. He introduced me to mysticism and the universality of the Universe. Chandra once said "God is man's greatest creation." He wasn't questioning God just people who shape God to their preferred image.