A fundamental human right

The problem is no religion can tolerate free thinking. So as various religions take over more of the decision making in our political theater the less that can get done to progress our nation. Like Glen Beck said the lable Progressive is just another code word for Liberal. I.E. Leftist, Pinko, Commie etc.

Generally religious organizations don't have an interest in individual rights for themselves or others. The church, mosque, temple will decide for themselves and US what freedoms, liberties we actually need.

Breaking down the wall between church and state is the most dangerous movement our nation has ever witnessed. If this movement continues and succede we will loose our nation to theocrates.

Then those of us who believe in secular government, liberty and freedom will just have to sit back and watch the varous religious sects destroy each other until one dominates and becomes the dictatorial theocracy of our nation.

hi I have taken my time to read your words and find agreement with much of what you say. to say there is a problem then eloquently explain what the problem looks likes is perhaps necessary to finding solutions that work but silly me I like to try and suggest things which might actually work to improve the social interactions of all. spiritual and the non spiritual ..all are human beings with things in common. To me the end of segregation and not the re segregation which is going on in America maybe is key. when people do not know each other in person it is much easier for them to believe things put forth by governments in some cases , or misguided bigoted people in others. I remember moving from Lincoln Nebraska (full integrated) to rural north Florida in the early 70's when the forced integration of schools was mandated by courts. after a year or two of increased violence on campus, the interaction between the races became more the norm the further time went along. I recently saw some pople from my high school reunion including one friend named Joe who was black who saved me from getting beat up in the bathrooms by saying i was a nice guy thirty something years ago. It is small things like that that symbolize progress and humanity with the great progress coming over time and perhaps unnoticed because of it's gradual steady pace.. I was sorry to have seen him at a time when his brothe was murdered Christmas eve, senselessly and brutally in a small town outside of Tallahassee. I went to the wake before the reunion and was gratified to see the mix of colors and people of all kinds who came out to remember a man who was like his brother Joe a decent human being.It is when decent human beings realize others are decent human beings and not some kind of animal that a lotof this stuff can't happen anymore. so I pray for more not less interaction between people who are different of all kinds.

I agree with CLEARTHINKING1 in most parts, but we should beaware not to be fool by the love messages of other religions. Almost all religions have "Love Your Neighbor" messages and "Violent" messages in their holly books and under certain circumstances they highlight and preach certain versus that serve their own purpuses. Examples are the killings between Hindus and Muslims in India and the vilent treatment of modern Jews by the Hardline Jews in certain extra Othrodox cities in Irael. Other less known religions are walking very carefully in order not to provoke others. In summary, religion says "My Way, or the Highway."

THE BAD NEWS: Christianity & Islam are the 2 religions always involved in religious violence on one side or both. Their supremacist beliefs bring out the worst in everyone as well. Not an impressive record of spiritual development for these religions.

THE GOOD NEWS: The majority of the world is not Christian or Muslim. Most are Hindu, Buddhists, Sikh, Jain, Confucianist, Taoist, Atheist, etc. These other "religions" do not promote religiously motivated violence.

Islam is impressive for a "religion" in terms of the violence and hatred. Just look at Pakistan today and the so-called moderate clerics celebrating the murder of an innocent. The killer is showered with rose petals, and the victim is blamed. The victim did not even commit blasphemy, which should be a capital crime anyway. He just spoke against blasphemy laws.

Where are the usual apologists for the Islam as the religion o' peace?

Answer to CECILG:
These are my opinions under the freedom of expression. I hope I will not be either cursed and given a bounty on my life, threatened or taken to the court. As I mentioned before, there are good Muslims and bad Muslims and I am lucky that there are good people around me who believe in coexistence.
1. If someone considers himself or herself a True Practicing Muslim, then feels compelled to all the teachings of Quran. (This is what Jihadists do.)
2. If someone considers himself or herself a Muslim but still not sure about all the teaching of Quran, then can be easily influenced by Muslim Imams. (This is what the young American born Muslims do by joining Al-Qaida or Al-Shibab.)
3. If someone is just born Muslim and still considers him or herself a Muslim but never practiced the teaching of Quran and has no guts in taking parts in daring Jihad, then feels that he or she is betraying his or her religion and feels compelled to somehow directly or indirectly help those who take part in Jihad. (Those in Afghanistan and Iraq that are bystanders when the American troops are nearby but turn around when no troops are around.)
4. There are those of type 3 above who live in other Muslim countries and feel to pay or contribute to the Jihadist Islamic Charities disguised under humanitarian campaigns. The least they might do is be happy of what Jihadists are doing. If opportunity presents itself, they can also fuel the fire.
5. If a Muslim who lives in Afghanistan or Iraq and (at least) does have no sympathy towards Jihadists are considered as betrayals and are shunned or targeted.
6. But there are those who are born Muslim and believe in the coexistence with other believers and non-believers and believe only in those “Love Your Neighbor” versus of Quran and reject those violent versus of Quran. If these people live in a Middle East country that has a democratic government (that true Muslims strive to depose), they can lead happy lives, but can only live among those modernized people. If they live in hardliners neighborhoods they need to hide what they believe in otherwise they can be targeted.
7. As far as I was taught in Madrassa (now I am ashamed of that) is that a True Practicing Muslim should not rest until all are converted Muslim or submit and feel inferior to Islam and pay Jizyeh (or compensations for not being Muslim). See the related versus in Quran.

The answer to the topic question must come in two parts: 1. what should the political and religious leaders WITHIN these countries do, and 2. what should political and religious leaders in the USA do?

The attacks on Christians in Iraq, Nigeria, and Egypt were acts of terrorism – terrorism directed against a particular religious group and against religious freedom. Terrorism, regardless of its motivation, is evil and should be stopped.

The Pakistani law regarding blasphemy is clearly designed to support a particular religion and to impede freedom of religion. It is an unjust law and should be repealed.

The political and religious leaders WITHIN these countries should use their influence and power to stop terrorism and promote religious freedom. They won’t of course unless it suits their purposes.

The political and religious leaders in the USA should by word and example show that this country strongly opposes terrorism and supports freedom of religion. But we should not meddle in the internal affairs of other sovereign nations.

The world has become small, and our concern for people should certainly include the poor and oppressed in other countries. However, The USA should not attempt to unilaterally police the world or to solve its myriad social and economic problems. Rather, the USA should work to build positive working relations with other nations and groups that are seeking to do good – to spread freedom, justice, and the pursuit of happiness.

Of course it would also be nice if the political and religious leaders WITHIN the USA would use their power and influence for good.

The comment from pelicnwatch is right on target and worth repeating:

"I would bet that governments such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan would give up their U.S. aid before they would give up their religious authoritarianism. I know the U.S. would back down on human rights issues before we would lose these countries as "allies." But that should come as nosurprise. During the Cold War, we supported some of the bloodiest little dictatorships in the world as long as they would serve as our bulwark against Communism. Human rights has always been more of a bargaining chip than an end in itself."

Question for Kent State: Do ALL who claim to be Muslim believe in All the sayings in the Quran? And do all who claim to be Muslim feel a compelling desire to do the violent deeds mentioned in the verses you quoted. If so, then the only possible religious interaction is a world wide fight to the death. Very depressing outlook.

To (TIMMYTB).
Here are answers to your questions and concerns.
1. I am an atheist and do not believe in Quran and its teaching. I believe in human rights and freedom of expression. I posted these versus from Quran because I have first hand experience of what they teach their kids in Mosques and Madrassa in the Middle East.
2. Muslims believe that if a Muslim leaves Islam he or she should be killed. So, if I post my name, even here in Ohio, there are Arab Muslims that will stab me to death.
3. Yes, Muslims (even my family members back in the Middle East) are ready to send every dear member of their family members to Jihad because they are promised to go to heaven.
4. My family members who are strong beilevers in Quran regard me as a betrayer and should I ever go home, they will get rid of me in a blink of an eye.

To first comment from "Kent State". I guess your beliefs are not strong enough to post your name after them.
Sadly all the statements from the Quran you posted are the exact reasons I and many others i know will never take religion seriously no matter what our politicians and governments say or do.
If all but one of your family members, with such strong beliefs, died "accidently" on the street after a suicide bomber blew up a car in a public setting. Would the last one still believe in the 'good fight'?

I was born and raised as a Muslim in the Middle East in a very religious Muslim family. Almost all of my relatives still live there and they are strong followers of Quran and support the fight against non-Muslims. I am citing only a few versus of Quran that orders the fight that is going on right now in Afghanistan, Pakistan, Israel-Palestine, Iraq and Iran. The Muslims in these countries strongly believe in these versus no matter what their politicians or government say or do.
Taken from ((The Qur’an: Arabic Text and English Translation by M.H. Shakir. ISBN # 13:9780940368569)).

Chapter 5 (Al-Maedeh) Verse 33 (page 100):
The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His apostle and strive to make mischief in the land is only this that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement.

Chapter 9 (Al-Toubeh) Verse 5 (page 169):
So when the sacred months have passed away, then slay the idolaters wherever you find them, and take them captives and besiege them and lie in wait for them in every ambush, then if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate (penalty), leave their way free to them; surely Allah if Forgiving Merciful.

Chapter 9 (Al-Toubeh) Verse 29 (page 172):

Fight those who do not believe in Allah nor in the Last Day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax (compensation) in acknowledgement of (your) superiority and they are in a state of subjection.

Chapter 9 (Al-Toubeh) Verse 123 (page 186):
O, you who believe! Fight those of the unbelievers who are near to you and let them find in you hardness; and know that Allah is with those who guard against evil.

Chapter 47 (Al-Muhammad) Verse 4 (page 504):

So when you meet in battle those who disbelieve, then smite the necks until when you have overcome them, then make prisoners, and afterwards either set them free as a favor or let them ransom themselves until the war terminates. That shall be so; and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have exacted what is due from them, but that He may try some of you by means of others; and as for those who are slain in the way of Allah, He will by no means allow their deeds in perish.

Muslim-Christian conflicts and fighting over fictions
Oh look, Muslims and Christians are fighting each other over their fictional books. This would be comical if people weren’t actually dying over this. As an atheist, I don’t have a “dog in this fight” to use Mel Gibson’s phrase.

I don’t mean to be flippant about this, but when I hear stories like this it just seems par for the course. When you have people who deeply hold beliefs which cannot be justified with evidence, of course they are going to all claim Truth and then fight over who’s got the real Truth.

You can read the rest of my response to this topic:
http://exm.nr/hUeeWo

I will be responding to every issue posted in the 'On Faith' section. If you would like to be notified when my new response is up, please subscribe.

I certainly agree with Dr. Silverman that people have the right to believe whatever they want as long as the activity of believing does not cause harm to others. However, as Sam Harris pointed out in "The End of Faith," people's beliefs affect the way they live their lives. I recently saw that a Christian group has decided that environmentalists are the greatest threat to "God's Plan for the Human Race" and they have started a series of videos entitled "Resisting the Green Dragon" to encourage people to throw a monkey wrench in the efforts of the environmental movement. Can we really have people believing in myths and legends from 2000 years ago and still hope to solve the problems facing the planet today? I have grave doubts.

I would bet that governments such as Saudi Arabia and Pakistan would give up their U.S. aid before they would give up their religious authoritarianism. I know the U.S. would back down on human rights issues before we would lose these countries as "allies." But that should come as no
surprise. During the Cold War, we supported some of
the bloodiest little dictatorships in the world as long as they would serve as our bulwark against Communism. Human rights has always been more of a bargaining chip than an end in itself.

Religious freedom presents quite a conundrum: How do you draw the line where one person's freedom's abridge another's? All of the major religions claim exclusive knowledge of the divine, although many believers no longer trumpet those claims.

It's sensible to forbid violence and infringement on others' rights, but it's ultimately arbitrary. It's saying you're free to practice *part* of your religion. Hopefully believers will recognize this contradiction. I also wonder if it's fair to allow believers to pretend that the more unsavory bits of their religious tradition don't exist and only practice the friendly parts.

BREAKING NEWS:
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"By using Cruel & Unusual Tactics: Three-3 ALQAEDA members confessed to following the Aegypti, Turki, Irani & Paki ISLAMIC BROTHER HOOD's International plot/plan to eject all KAFIR'S from All the 54-OIC-Nations before Saudi Arabia and the GCC creates the new ISLAMIC CURRENCY...." Jan.4.2011.
07:15 GMT. WHEREFORE:
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IT IS TIME!
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DEATH to: I S L A M i C -- B R O T H E R H O O D!

DEATH to: I S L A M i C -- S I S T E R H O O D too!

DEATH to: I R A N! (NOt Secular Persians).

DEATH to: PAKISTAN! (Not Secular Hurdu).

DEATH to: T U R K E Y! (Not Real Sekular)
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............. .`\; . . . . .; . ;| . .\ . "Give U.S. Liberty
............... ; . . '' ' ; . . . . . ./ . Or Give US Death"
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................ ,' . K . a . a . b . a . '#| . . . "Never--Again
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.......... :---------------------- '# # # |. . . .O' YaHaBeBe"
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.......... | #ALLAHaKBAR#| # # # |
.......... | # [ البيت المعمو ر‎] # |[ الكعبة‎].|
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DEATH TO Al ISHLAMi's UMMAH in KAFIR Nations!
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NOTE: This is NOT a CARTOON; IT IS MORE THAN THAT.