The Living Relationship Between Church and State

Circumcision of the eight day

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him.
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and He shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee”
“to keep thee in the way”
“to bring thee into the place which I have prepared”
“My name is in him”
“He shall bless thy bread, and thy water”

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

“Give ear, O ye heavens”
“I will speak; and hear”
“O earth, the words of my mouth”
“My doctrine shall drop as the rain”
“I will publish the name of the Lord”

But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:
A land which the Lord thy God careth for: the eyes of the Lord thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

“drinketh water of the rain of heaven”
“A land which the Lord thy God careth for”
“I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain”

Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

“I will rain bread from heaven for you”
“the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day”
“I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no”

Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.

“I will give you rain in due season”
“the trees of the field shall yield their fruit”
“sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely”
“I will give peace in the land”
“I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land”

And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

“the first rain and the latter rain”

The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

“the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season”
“to bless all the work of thine hand”
“the Lord shall make thee the head”

And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

“the first rain and the latter rain”

Thou leddest thy people like a flock by the hand of Moses and Aaron.

“Thou leddest thy people”
“by the hand of Moses and Aaron”

The children of Israel brought a willing offering unto the Lord, every man and woman, whose heart made them willing to bring for all manner of work, which the Lord had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.

“the Lord had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.”

As Moses the servant of the Lord commanded the children of Israel, as it is written in the book of the law of Moses, an altar of whole stones, over which no man hath lift up any iron: and they offered thereon burnt offerings unto the Lord, and sacrificed peace offerings.

“as it is written in the book of the law of Moses”

So Aaron and his sons did all things which the Lord commanded by the hand of Moses.

“Aaron and his sons did all things which the Lord commanded by the hand of Moses”

And when Rachel saw that she bare Jacob no children, Rachel envied her sister; and said unto Jacob, Give me children, or else I die.
And Jacob's anger was kindled against Rachel: and he said, Am I in God's stead, who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb?

“who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb”

And God remembered Rachel, and God hearkened to her, and opened her womb.
And she conceived, and bare a son; and said, God hath taken away my reproach:
And she called his name Joseph; and said, The Lord shall add to me another son.

“God remembered Rachel”
“and opened her womb”
“she called his name Joseph”
“The Lord shall add to me another son”

And Jacob called the name of the place where God spake with him, Bethel.
And they journeyed from Bethel; and there was but a little way to come to Ephrath: and Rachel travailed, and she had hard labour.
And it came to pass, when she was in hard labour, that the midwife said unto her, Fear not; thou shalt have this son also.
And it came to pass, as her soul was in departing, (for she died) that she called his name Benoni: but his father called him Benjamin.
And Rachel died, and was buried in the way to Ephrath, which is Bethlehem.
And Jacob set a pillar upon her grave: that is the pillar of Rachel's grave unto this day.

“The Lord shall add to me another son”
“she called his name Benoni”
“but his father called him Benjamin”

And he lifted up his eyes, and saw his brother Benjamin, his mother's son, and said, Is this your younger brother, of whom ye spake unto me? And he said, God be gracious unto thee, my son.
And Joseph made haste; for his bowels did yearn upon his brother: and he sought where to weep; and he entered into his chamber, and wept there.

“he lifted up his eyes”
“saw his brother Benjamin”
“The Lord shall add to me another son”
“his mother's son”
“she called his name Benoni”
“God be gracious unto thee, my son”
“for his bowels did yearn upon his brother”

They envied Moses also in the camp, and Aaron the saint of the Lord.

“Aaron the saint of the Lord”

And this is the blessing, wherewith Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel before his death.
And he said, The Lord came from Sinai, and rose up from Seir unto them; he shined forth from mount Paran, and he came with ten thousands of saints: from his right hand went a fiery law for them.
Yea, he loved the people; all his saints are in thy hand: and they sat down at thy feet; every one shall receive of thy words.
Moses commanded us a law, even the inheritance of the congregation of Jacob.
And he was king in Jeshurun, when the heads of the people and the tribes of Israel were gathered together.

“Moses the man of God blessed the children of Israel”
“came with ten thousands of saints”
“from his right hand went a fiery law for them”
“Yea, he loved the people”
“all his saints are in thy hand”
“they sat down at thy feet”

And she conceived again, and bare a son: and she said, Now will I praise the Lord: therefore she called his name Judah; and left bearing.

“I praise the Lord”
“called his name Judah”

Gilead is mine, and Manasseh is mine; Ephraim also is the strength of mine head; Judah is my lawgiver;

“Judah is my lawgiver”

I have set the Lord always before me: because he is at my right hand, I shall not be moved.

“I have set the Lord always before me”
“he is at my right hand”

When my spirit was overwhelmed within me, then thou knewest my path. In the way wherein I walked have they privily laid a snare for me.
I looked on my right hand, and beheld, but there was no man that would know me: refuge failed me; no man cared for my soul.

“I looked on my right hand”
“there was no man that would know me”
“no man cared for my soul”

Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.

“Then said David”
“I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts”

And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,
The Lord bless thee, and keep thee:
The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.

“On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them”
“The Lord bless thee”
“and keep thee”
“The Lord make his face shine upon thee”
“be gracious unto thee”
“The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee”
“give thee peace”
“And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel”
“and I will bless them”

Circumcision of the eight day
“the day that the Lord made the earth and the heavens”
“And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel”
“and I will bless them”
Judah
Benoni

“by the hand of Moses and Aaron”
“God remembered Rachel”
“and opened her womb”
“she called his name Joseph”
“Then said David”
“I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts”
“I have set the Lord always before me”
“he is at my right hand”
“I praise the Lord”
“called his name Judah”
“Judah is my lawgiver”
“The Lord shall add to me another son”
“she called his name Benoni”
“the Lord had commanded to be made by the hand of Moses.”
“as it is written in the book of the law of Moses”

“who hath withheld from thee the fruit of the womb”

“My doctrine shall drop as the rain”
“I will publish the name of the Lord”
“the trees of the field shall yield their fruit”

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,

“generations of the heavens and of the earth”
“the day that the Lord made the earth and the heavens”

She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her: and happy is every one that retaineth her.
The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth; by understanding hath he established the heavens.

“She is a tree of life to them that lay hold upon her”
“The Lord by wisdom hath founded the earth”
“understanding hath he established the heavens.”
“the day that the Lord made the earth and the heavens”

So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
He had also seven sons and three daughters.
And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.
And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.

“So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning”
“He had three daughters”
“And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job”
“and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren”

And Leah said, God hath endued me with a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun.
And afterwards she bare a daughter, and called her name Dinah.

baby
“she bare a daughter, and called her name Dinah”

And Shebuel the son of Gershom, the son of Moses, was ruler of the treasures.

andrea
“Shebuel the son of Gershom, the son of Moses”
“was ruler of the treasures”

The son of Abinadab, in all the region of Dor; which had Taphath the daughter of Solomon to wife:

kimberly
“Taphath the daughter of Solomon to wife”

So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning: for he had fourteen thousand sheep, and six thousand camels, and a thousand yoke of oxen, and a thousand she asses.
He had also seven sons and three daughters.
And he called the name of the first, Jemima; and the name of the second, Kezia; and the name of the third, Kerenhappuch.
And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job: and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren.

“So the Lord blessed the latter end of Job more than his beginning”
“He had three daughters”
“And in all the land were no women found so fair as the daughters of Job”
“and their father gave them inheritance among their brethren”

And Leah said, God hath endued me with a good dowry; now will my husband dwell with me, because I have born him six sons: and she called his name Zebulun.
And afterwards she bare a daughter, and called her name Dinah.

“she bare a daughter, and called her name Dinah”

And Shebuel the son of Gershom, the son of Moses, was ruler of the treasures.

“Shebuel the son of Gershom, the son of Moses”
“was ruler of the treasures”

The son of Abinadab, in all the region of Dor; which had Taphath the daughter of Solomon to wife:

“Taphath the daughter of Solomon to wife”

“that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only”
“but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live”

“My doctrine shall drop as the rain”
“breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul”
“drinketh water of the rain of heaven”
“I will rain bread from heaven for you”
“the first rain and the latter rain”
“man became a living soul and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life”
“I will rain bread from heaven for you”
“drinketh water of the rain of heaven”

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

And the angel of the Lord called unto Abraham out of heaven the second time,
And said, By myself have I sworn, saith the Lord, for because thou hast done this thing, and hast not withheld thy son, thine only son:
That in blessing I will bless thee, and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven, and as the sand which is upon the sea shore; and thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies;

“That in blessing I will bless thee”
“and in multiplying I will multiply thy seed as the stars of the heaven”
“as the sand which is upon the sea shore”
“thy seed shall possess the gate of his enemies”

Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.
Beware of him, and obey his voice, provoke him not; for he will not pardon your transgressions: for My name is in him.
But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an enemy unto thine enemies, and an adversary unto thine adversaries.
For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.
Thou shalt not bow down to their gods, nor serve them, nor do after their works: but thou shalt utterly overthrow them, and quite break down their images.
And ye shall serve the Lord your God, and He shall bless thy bread, and thy water; and I will take sickness away from the midst of thee.

“Behold, I send an Angel before thee”
“to keep thee in the way”
“to bring thee into the place which I have prepared”
“My name is in him”
“He shall bless thy bread, and thy water”

Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.

“Then said David”
“I come to thee in the name of the Lord of hosts”

And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying,
Speak unto Aaron and unto his sons, saying, On this wise ye shall bless the children of Israel, saying unto them,
The Lord bless thee, and keep thee:
The Lord make his face shine upon thee, and be gracious unto thee:
The Lord lift up his countenance upon thee, and give thee peace.
And they shall put my name upon the children of Israel, and I will bless them.

And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

“the first rain and the latter rain”

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

“Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak”
“and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth”
“My doctrine shall drop as the rain”
“Because I will publish the name of the Lord”

Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

“I will rain bread from heaven for you”
“the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day”
“I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no”

All the commandments which I command thee this day shall ye observe to do, that ye may live, and multiply, and go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers.
And thou shalt remember all the way which the Lord thy God led thee these forty years in the wilderness, to humble thee, and to prove thee, to know what was in thine heart, whether thou wouldest keep his commandments, or no.
And he humbled thee, and suffered thee to hunger, and fed thee with manna, which thou knewest not, neither did thy fathers know; that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live.

“And he humbled thee”
“suffered thee to hunger”
“fed thee with manna”
“which thou knewest not”
“neither did thy fathers know”
“that he might make thee know that man doth not live by bread only”
“but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of the Lord doth man live”

But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:
A land which the Lord thy God careth for: the eyes of the Lord thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

“drinketh water of the rain of heaven”
“A land which the Lord thy God careth for”
“I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain”

Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.

“I will give you rain in due season”
“the trees of the field shall yield their fruit”
“sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely”
“I will give peace in the land”
“I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land”

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

“Unto the woman he said”
“I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception”
“in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children”
“thy desire shall be to thy husband”
“he shall rule over thee”

The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

“the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season”
“to bless all the work of thine hand”
“the Lord shall make thee the head”

Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the Lord was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.
And Moses said unto the Lord, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?
Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?

“Moses said unto the Lord”
“Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant”
“wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight”
“that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me”
“Have I conceived all this people”
“have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me”
“Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child”

Behold, I have set the land before you: go in and possess the land which the Lord sware unto your fathers, Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, to give unto them and to their seed after them.
And I spake unto you at that time, saying, I am not able to bear you myself alone:
The Lord your God hath multiplied you, and, behold, ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude.
The Lord God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are, and bless you, as he hath promised you!

“The Lord your God hath multiplied you”
“ye are this day as the stars of heaven for multitude”
“The Lord God of your fathers make you a thousand times so many more as ye are”
“and bless you”
“as he hath promised you”

heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.
And Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country, and all the wisdom of Egypt.
For he was wiser than all men; than Ethan the Ezrahite, and Heman, and Chalcol, and Darda, the sons of Mahol: and his fame was in all nations round about.
And he spake three thousand proverbs: and his songs were a thousand and five.
And he spake of trees, from the cedar tree that is in Lebanon even unto the hyssop that springeth out of the wall: he spake also of beasts, and of fowl, and of creeping things, and of fishes.
And there came of all people to hear the wisdom of Solomon, from all kings of the earth, which had heard of his wisdom.

“Solomon wisdom and understanding exceeding much”
“largeness of heart, even as the sand that is on the sea shore.”
“Solomon's wisdom excelled the wisdom of all the children of the east country”
“and all the wisdom of Egypt”
“he spake of trees”
“the hyssop that springeth out of the wall”
“he spake also of beasts”
“and of fowl”
“and of creeping things”
“and of fishes”
“there came of all people to hear the wisdom of Solomon”

Geber the son of Uri was in the country of Gilead, in the country of Sihon king of the Amorites, and of Og king of Bashan; and he was the only officer which was in the land.
Judah and Israel were many, as the sand which is by the sea in multitude, eating and drinking, and making merry.
And Solomon reigned over all kingdoms from the river unto the land of the Philistines, and unto the border of Egypt: they brought presents, and served Solomon all the days of his life.

“in the land. Judah and Israel were many”
“as the sand which is by the sea in multitude”
“Solomon reigned over all kingdoms”
“they brought presents”
“served Solomon all the days of his life”

For one of the most reasoned responses and contributions to the ongoing discussion concerning the relationship that needs to exist between "church and state" has been written by the thoughtful Rabbi,Irwin Kula. Thank you for your written considerations!

The rigidness of both right and left trying to define the nature of the separation that "needs to exist" miss the point almost entirely, though each side finds certain facts and certain principles to back their sides. It seems to be that a better direction might be obtained if we would lose our fears of what "they" (whoever they are) might think, or want, or stand for as if they were the enemy. Then, setting aside those fears along with all the presuppositions that go along with them, start giving thoughtful consideration to the nature of the relationship or relationships that ought to exist between church and state. These are two entities (or more) that do exist. Therefore, there is some sort of relationship that is called for. What needs to be avoided is the assumption of coercive power on the part of either. That is the separation that is required.

Can we get beyond the nonsense of the present debate and get into real conversation about values, issues, goals, and direction? All this other is merely a distraction albeit one that has acquired monstrous dimensions so that it may seem to be someone's main cause rather than a distraction. A person's worldview is real to that person and cannot be ignored. It necessarily includes both state and "church." To argue for separation in terms that mean they have nothing at all to do with one another is folly.

Our predication as a separate nation among other nations is that God has given rights of liberty, life, and pursuit of happiness to all peoples. Our foundation as a nation rests on the truths behind that predication. We called them axioms or self-evident truths.

To function as though there is no God and no society produced by God is a destructive fallacy and turns those truths on their heads.

Thank you again, Rabbi Irwin, for speaking out and writing out your helpful insight on this issue.

I ask those of the faith of Moses and David, how do you judge your non-Jewish friends? Who did David teach and try to convert, was not it sinners. What about Solomon, did not he speak to the sons of man.

“ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests”
“These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel”
“He shall reward evil unto mine enemies: cut them off in thy truth.”
“mine eye hath seen his desire upon mine enemies.”
“If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me”
“Let the enemy persecute my soul”

And Moses went up unto God, and the Lord called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;
Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and how I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself.
Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth is mine:
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.
And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the Lord commanded him.
And all the people answered together, and said, All that the Lord hath spoken we will do. And Moses returned the words of the people unto the Lord.
And the Lord said unto Moses, Lo, I come unto thee in a thick cloud, that the people may hear when I speak with thee, and believe thee for ever. And Moses told the words of the people unto the Lord.

Save me, O God, by thy name, and judge me by thy strength.
Hear my prayer, O God; give ear to the words of my mouth.
For strangers are risen up against me, and oppressors seek after my soul: they have not set God before them. Selah.
Behold, God is mine helper: the Lord is with them that uphold my soul.
He shall reward evil unto mine enemies: cut them off in thy truth.
I will freely sacrifice unto thee: I will praise thy name, O Lord; for it is good.
For he hath delivered me out of all trouble: and mine eye hath seen his desire upon mine enemies.

Lord my God, in thee do I put my trust: save me from all them that persecute me, and deliver me:
Lest he tear my soul like a lion, rending it in pieces, while there is none to deliver.
O Lord my God, if I have done this; if there be iniquity in my hands;
If I have rewarded evil unto him that was at peace with me; (yea, I have delivered him that without cause is mine enemy:)
Let the enemy persecute my soul, and take it; yea, let him tread down my life upon the earth, and lay mine honour in the dust.

i always enjoy reading your comments ... not because i always agree with everything you say but because i can sense the sicerity in your points and i respect points genuininly held by others even thoush they at times are not mine.. in this one you make valid points on topics that are undeniably germaime and correct but somtimes i think the ultimate aswer is the the distilation of the truth into its essance or simplest form... i'm not claiming to do that but i have a simple test that mite be valid to one who wants to judge thier oown faith its simple but simple does not alway mean easy or somthing of little value maybe compact would be more of a correct word to use.. it would seem to me that if one truely had faith in god or the divine presences in some form greater than ourselves that has true dominion over our world then it would seem the mere act of trying to force an outcome by using too much money, to loud a voice, or denying any peaceful person thier voice... to large a demonstration would be an example of a person who has faith in them selves and other humans and not.. with God....there is a delicate balance somewhere between putting forth ideas completely and with conviction and placing it in the public domain to be decided then leaving the results to God and trusting in the outcome in public domain i think in this resct lincoln had it just right with his fool some of the people some of the time but you cant fool all the people all the time and truth speads like wildfire with the necessity of propaganda.....it seems to me in the old testament it is when the chosen peoople chose to follow thier own wisdom and and plans and designs and pursued them to the point where it was obviously to the detriment of anohter that God himself exhiled the chosen for chosing themselves instead of him.. in the new testament jesus said give unto caesar what is caesaers and give unto God what is Gods. which to me says that if people do the things they know to be honest and right in each intance within the parameters of human fallability then we can expect God to guided the results in ways we could not have imagined i think it may be true that the man or woman who thinks themselves to be indespensable.. should be dispensed with before they screw everything up maybe....

There is a big difference between spirituality and religion. Spirituality doesn’t have any dogma, fiction, or perversion. Spirituality is simply based on everything being connected and part of one body, with One Being behind it all. This is what Jesus A Christ was trying to communicate. It is that simple.

Politics being how various needs and wants are expressed and met or obtained how combined efforts are implemented and what joint ventures are formed and funded. Politics should include the view that we are all one; part of the same body. Religion should not be involved in Politics because it has become perverse in the eyes of the Lord it has become the house of hypocrisy not the House of God.

What is disturbing is how fast both candidates were swept into the Illusion, each not daring to question the popular fiction.

CHURCH: a body or organization of religious believers

FAITH: a system of religious beliefs

There is no difference yet neither candidate questioned it and was able to see through the Illusion created by Rick Warren. In other words he was propagating a fiction.

RELIGION IS AN EGO CREATION NOT ONE OF SPIRIT - scripture says and we are warned that the Churches (institutionalized religion) are the Antichrist; which must be true if we have Faith in Scripture?

McCain with his understandable doubts about the existence of a God resulting from his experience in prison camp, and Obama doesn’t really buy the Jesus died for our sins crap.

Jesus was a Jew and not a Christian. Furthermore the Christians should be thanking the Jews for crucifying Jesus since their act actually redeemed Christians, Jesus could have just committed suicide to die for your sins right?
What this character Jesus did was refuse to buy into the worlds fictions and he set the ultimate example of being steadfast in the truth.

Religion is one big fiction, and it was people protecting The Religion that crucified Jesus because he questioned the fiction and saw through it.

So if anyone really wants to honor Jesus, start ripping the fictions apart with your rational logical discerning minds and live steadfast in the truth, don’t sell out to the ego empire.

Remember a divided people are a weak people. This is what allows 10,000 to take advantage and make subservient the other 300 million people in the United States.

Religion is being used to divide you amongst your selves, in the US and other countries. It is one of the most effective weapons of the source disconnected ego to protect it's fictional world. Religion is a behavioral control mechanism a producer of shame, guilt and irrational conformity.

Most people have no idea what love is, because love that comes with a condition is not love. There is only one source of love, and one can choose to be a channel for it or not.

Why die and go to Heaven when you can bring it to you?

If I recall correctly Jesus once said something like “I am in your world but not of your world”. He was speaking of the world of fiction that most are living in which still persists today but looks like it is in it's end days and the Ego empire is going to fall.

Divine Source connected - Ego Divine
Divine Source disconnected - Ego Bastard

Yes, faith meaning trust is a verb not a noun. The word has been perverted by the Ego and made into a false idol.

When we hear more about a candidates religious beliefs than on important political issues, the small leak in the boat has become a total breach of the hull.

The boat is sinking and no Ark is in sight.

Rick Warren is Jerry Falwell with a goatee (very hip, indeed). In order to be president of the US, one must bow down at the alter of Christian Fundamentalism. There is no seperation of church and state right now.

There is hope. As with all religious hysterics, the tendency is to overreach. The Fundamentalists always go to far. Reasonable people see them for what they are and push them to the backbench where they belong.

Christianity is just a wing of the Republican Party. It must be difficult being a conservative Jew at a time like this. You realize, of course, that the bible thumpers hate you.

Hey Mr. Kula,

How's the science and technology of faith going? Had any breakthroughs lately? I heard the iGod might be released this year, any truth to that?

:)

I truly appreciate the author's point of view.

This very moment is all anybody has......no more and no less...how could it be otherwise?

A weird set of people.

a. They believe that they came from monkeys
b. They believe that the chocolate cake can bake all by itself and continuously improving everytime it repeatingly bakes itself.
c. They find it hard to prevent pregnancy and if they become pregnant, they rip the fetus out.
d. They marry with the same sex.

The terrible thing is they want these weird beliefs to be written in our Constitution. Their objective is to make the Constitution the COMIC book of the land.

Truly, a weird set of people. But God is almighty. He created this world in a way that the weird will annihilate the weird. They will self destruct.

Evangelicals just want to know who among the two is weird.

Peter S -- If physiological differences are identified with some degree of reliability, you might actually be pleased with the results. Why did this question result in a defensive, suspicious reaction? In any event, thanks for commenting.

Despite Article VI of the Constitution, which states that "no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States," evangelicals today impose a religious test upon the candidates. All candidates, secular or not, appear to see some requirement that they publicly express their belief in Jesus. Did anybody believe that McCain's expression of belief in Jesus was honest and sincere?

See, the thing is, if this were a *negotiation,* why doesn't it look like one?

In a negotiation, people communicate with each other as equals and come to mutual accomodation.

The church-state battle is all about religious conservatives trying to *take by main force,* what isn't theirs... when they get it, they demand more and become more aggressive and hurtful. When they don't, they whine, 'Oh, give us half of what we wanted to take anyway, or we'll say you're 'intolerant' of our intolerance and aggression.'

That's not a 'negotiation.' That's that 'war' they declared.

Anyone wants to negotiate about this, I think it'd be a great idea. But let's start where we belong, as equal individual citizens with no special religious authority, but with unalienable rights. That's the social contract called our Constitution. And the rule of law.

I say, negotiation would be a great idea, instead of destructive and oft-rapacious conflict. When *I* feel secure in my rights, I'm less *threatened* by religious displays.... When people are trying to claim our government as their territory, too, their displays become a spirit of aggression and intimidation.

Doesn't have to go that way. If we stop flipping out and give this America thing a real chance.

So, sure, let's *negotiate.*

But that's not what we've seen yet from the Right.

Rabbi Kula:
Thank you for your thoughtful essay about the shifting sands under our treasured Constitutional declaration of the separation of church and state.
This is dangerous territory to be monkeying with the Constitution, especially in this day and time.
You would think, with the clear demonstration of the danger of radical religious movements, that the U.S. electorate would take steps to accord the concept of the separation of church and state a particular reverence.
Instead, we find that our American freedoms are under assault, not only from without, but also from within.
This development is a failure of education.
When I first heard my Baptist friends talk about Christianity being under assault and discriminated against by the government in the U.S., I didn't understand what they were talking about.
As I listened to them, it began to dawn on me: they were going to church every Sunday, listening to their pastor try to claim that, as the courts were protecting the rights of minorities against imposition of their form of Christian religion on the entire populace, that this was defined as a form of "persecution" against the evangelicals.
If it came down to push-versus-shove, all other religious persuasions better get out of the way because this country was "founded on" a Judeo-Christian base -- but, you understand, only their definition of this "Christian" base will suffice.
Intolerance masquerading as the tyranny of the majority -- the very thing our founders had left Europe to get away from.
I was horrified.
But there you have it.
The past, I would say, 30 years in this country has produced a series of movements which are corroding the very fabric of the basis upon which our nation is founded.
It all started with the Moral Majority.
At the time (in the 80s), no one I knew got too upset about it.
It was just another political-religious movement, but a minority, so why worry too much?
It wouldn't go anywhere, they said.
Well, that's not the case today.
You can't discuss this concern about religious freedom with the proponents of this new philosophy.
They have been thoroughly indoctrinated by their pastors, who, as a side phenomenon, are raking in contributions to the collection plate, supporting the further calls to do more and claim more instances of the perceived "threat" their religious movement is suffering.
Drives me crazy.
I'm a Catholic and the wife of a 33-year military veteran.
I can't explain to you what I think about the proselytizing of the military (a corralled audience).
My husband and I have had some interesting discussions -- we're so glad he's retired and doesn't have to be confronted with this movement as a function of military service.
Nazi Germany should have taught us all a great lesson; Communist China is the current offender of prosecution.
These Americans don't get it.
The America we grew up in is dwindling away, sadly.
I don't think we're going to like the alternative.

"The separation of church and state has become confused with keeping religious wisdom and values out of public policy discussions."

Absolutely correct. Religion is an essential part of any political view. The problem is that churches, the proponents of non-evolving forms of religions, want us to believe that their form is the only form of religion. We recognize that separation of church and state is not practiced by all states, and that those states that are based on a particular church are not, and cannot be, democratic. Democracy is a political structure that has evolution built into it, unthinkable to religious dictatorships. The foundations for democracy are religious, but not in a form embraced by most churches. You might call these foundations philosophical, applied philosophy, which is actually what all religious belief is. Too bad we don't have more education about these things. Some people believe it is prohibited by the separation of church and state. Only those wishing to promote a particular religion could believe this.

“They wildly applauded McCain's prideful declaration of his religious belief that life begins at conception”

He did not pose this as a religious belief. Wow way to distort. Just because someone is pro-life does not make them “religious” and vice-versa.

Throughout this piece you assert how intolerant Christians are. What is your basis for this? Can we have some specific examples? Probably not, because this is a standard liberal prefabricated lie with designs to somehow become standardly accepted as truth through the virtue of its prolific use as a liberal talking point.

This "On Faith" forum is a liberal propaganda trap.

To AMA:

"Are the brains of the faithful physiologically different than the brains of the secular?"

Why do you ask? Maybe you would like to develop a drug that "cures" religious impulses. Of course you would mandate that it be taken by all as an "Immunization" from a potentially contagious social disease.

Sisl said, “I feel sorry for him, his family and anybody who has to have any kind of contact with him. He is the human depiction of lunacy.” You do not and can not understand the difference between beasts and mankind. “Lord God said unto the serpent” “thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field” “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed” “Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves”

“In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.”
“With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.”
“Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.”

And the Lord God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle, and above every beast of the field; upon thy belly shalt thou go, and dust shalt thou eat all the days of thy life:
And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.

The gospels
Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.
Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves.

The words of Job
But ask now the beasts, and they shall teach thee; and the fowls of the air, and they shall tell thee:
Or speak to the earth, and it shall teach thee: and the fishes of the sea shall declare unto thee.
Who knoweth not in all these that the hand of the Lord hath wrought this?
In whose hand is the soul of every living thing, and the breath of all mankind.
Doth not the ear try words? and the mouth taste his meat?
With the ancient is wisdom; and in length of days understanding.
With him is wisdom and strength, he hath counsel and understanding.

The words of Solomon
O ye simple, understand wisdom: and, ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.
Hear; for I will speak of excellent things; and the opening of my lips shall be right things.
For my mouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.
All the words of my mouth are in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.
They are all plain to him that understandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.
Receive my instruction, and not silver; and knowledge rather than choice gold.
For wisdom is better than rubies; and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.
I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions.
The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, and arrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.
Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: I am understanding; I have strength.
By me kings reign, and princes decree justice.
By me princes rule, and nobles, even all the judges of the earth.
I love them that love me; and those that seek me early shall find me.

Rabbi Kula, thank you. It is good to hear a man of reason. Americans tend to dislike the very word reason. In general, and I know this from my experiences in various Christian churches and communities, American christians are woefully ignorant of not only the history and meaning of their own religions, but of history and philosophy as well and have memories shorter than a goldfish in a bowl. I am what I call a non-theist. But I do respect the wisdom of faith traditions that can inform our life and political perspectives. You have presented this idea, this important idea, well. I hope more of us can come to understand what you are saying.

A freethinker once sated:
" Imagine the tragedy of teaching your children never to doubt, never to question authority"

Harold above is the direct product of that type of child rearing. I feel sorry for him, his family and anybody who has to have any kind of contact with him. He is the human depiction of lunacy.

Harold,

Do you have a particular point to make or are you just practicing your Bible quoting skills?

religion should remain private. what makes the US a shining light on a hill is the separation of religion from state.

i fear the Evangalicals are closet Talibans...looking for an opening. Then heaven help us all.

Sisl said “How about making worlwide decisions on international policy so that we can help the God chosen Israelis without any other merit than because the Bible tells us so, is another one.” The Israelis are chosen because they accept the Word of the LORD. The sinners of Sodom rejected “that it was well watered every where” “even as the garden of the Lord” All other religions reject the doctrine of Moses like the wicked sinners they are. They reject the LORD and accept god as they are created in his image. This is the graven image the LORD rejects. The Faith of Jews starts with Abram/Abraham, that is why it is called Judaism, That is the name of the LORD. “My doctrine shall drop as the rain” “I will publish the name of the Lord” “I will give you rain in due season” “drinketh water of the rain of heaven” “I will rain bread from heaven for you” “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.” “the trees of the field shall yield their fruit” “out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight” “the tree of life also in the midst of the garden” “good for food” “the tree of knowledge of good and evil” “the first rain and the latter rain” latter rain “I will rain bread from heaven for you” “drinketh water of the rain of heaven” “man became a living soul.” “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life” That is how you have everlasting life. You are given the breath of life at birth and given the breath of life to enter Heaven. Everlasting to everlasting. The dead do not go to heaven. The so-called christians teach the gospels, to creatures. They have eternal life. That is what they are, dead. God never gave them the breath of life or a soul.

In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting, and to everlasting. Amen, and Amen.

Lord, thou hast been our dwelling place in all generations.
Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting to everlasting, thou art God.

But the mercy of the Lord is from everlasting to everlasting upon them that fear him, and his righteousness unto children's children;

Blessed be the Lord God of Israel from everlasting to everlasting: and let all the people say, Amen. Praise ye the Lord.

And Abram said unto Lot, Let there be no strife, I pray thee, between me and thee, and between my herdmen and thy herdmen; for we be brethren.
Is not the whole land before thee? separate thyself, I pray thee, from me: if thou wilt take the left hand, then I will go to the right; or if thou depart to the right hand, then I will go to the left.
And Lot lifted up his eyes, and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where, before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah, even as the garden of the Lord, like the land of Egypt, as thou comest unto Zoar.
Then Lot chose him all the plain of Jordan; and Lot journeyed east: and they separated themselves the one from the other.
Abram dwelled in the land of Canaan, and Lot dwelled in the cities of the plain, and pitched his tent toward Sodom.
But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly.

“and beheld all the plain of Jordan, that it was well watered every where”
“before the Lord destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah”
“even as the garden of the Lord”
“But the men of Sodom were wicked and sinners before the Lord exceedingly”

These are the generations of the heavens and of the earth when they were created, in the day that the Lord God made the earth and the heavens,
And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew: for the Lord God had not caused it to rain upon the earth, and there was not a man to till the ground.
But there went up a mist from the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.
And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
And the Lord God planted a garden eastward in Eden; and there he put the man whom he had formed.
And out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight, and good for food; the tree of life also in the midst of the garden, and the tree of knowledge of good and evil.

“heavens and of the earth” “earth and the heavens”
“there went up a mist from the earth”
“watered the whole face of the ground”
“Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground”
“breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.”
“out of the ground made the Lord God to grow every tree that is pleasant to the sight”
“the tree of life also in the midst of the garden”
“good for food”
“the tree of knowledge of good and evil”

And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.

“My spirit shall not always strive with man”
“his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.”

And Moses went and spake these words unto all Israel.
And he said unto them, I am an hundred and twenty years old this day; I can no more go out and come in: also the Lord hath said unto me, Thou shalt not go over this Jordan.
The Lord thy God, he will go over before thee, and he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them: and Joshua, he shall go over before thee, as the Lord hath said.

“I am an hundred and twenty years old this day”
“I can no more go out and come in”

Give ear, O ye heavens, and I will speak; and hear, O earth, the words of my mouth.
My doctrine shall drop as the rain, my speech shall distil as the dew, as the small rain upon the tender herb, and as the showers upon the grass:
Because I will publish the name of the Lord: ascribe ye greatness unto our God.
He is the Rock, his work is perfect: for all his ways are judgment: a God of truth and without iniquity, just and right is he.

“Give ear, O ye heavens”
“I will speak; and hear”
“O earth, the words of my mouth”
“My doctrine shall drop as the rain”
“I will publish the name of the Lord”

That thy beloved may be delivered; save with thy right hand, and hear me.

“save with thy right hand, and hear me”

That thy beloved may be delivered: save with thy right hand, and answer me.

“save with thy right hand, and answer me”

Then said the Lord unto Moses, Behold, I will rain bread from heaven for you; and the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day, that I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no.

“I will rain bread from heaven for you”
“the people shall go out and gather a certain rate every day”
“I may prove them, whether they will walk in my law, or no”

Then I will give you rain in due season, and the land shall yield her increase, and the trees of the field shall yield their fruit.
And your threshing shall reach unto the vintage, and the vintage shall reach unto the sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely.
And I will give peace in the land, and ye shall lie down, and none shall make you afraid: and I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land.

“I will give you rain in due season”
“the trees of the field shall yield their fruit”
“sowing time: and ye shall eat your bread to the full, and dwell in your land safely”
“I will give peace in the land”
“I will rid evil beasts out of the land, neither shall the sword go through your land”

And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

“the first rain and the latter rain”

But the land, whither ye go to possess it, is a land of hills and valleys, and drinketh water of the rain of heaven:
A land which the Lord thy God careth for: the eyes of the Lord thy God are always upon it, from the beginning of the year even unto the end of the year.
And it shall come to pass, if ye shall hearken diligently unto my commandments which I command you this day, to love the Lord your God, and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul,
That I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain, that thou mayest gather in thy corn, and thy wine, and thine oil.

“drinketh water of the rain of heaven”
“A land which the Lord thy God careth for”
“I will give you the rain of your land in his due season, the first rain and the latter rain”

The Lord shall open unto thee his good treasure, the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season, and to bless all the work of thine hand: and thou shalt lend unto many nations, and thou shalt not borrow.
And the Lord shall make thee the head, and not the tail; and thou shalt be above only, and thou shalt not be beneath; if that thou hearken unto the commandments of the Lord thy God, which I command thee this day, to observe and to do them:

“the heaven to give the rain unto thy land in his season”
“to bless all the work of thine hand”
“the Lord shall make thee the head”

Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

“Unto the woman he said”
“I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception”
“in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children”
“thy desire shall be to thy husband”
“he shall rule over thee”

Then Moses heard the people weep throughout their families, every man in the door of his tent: and the anger of the Lord was kindled greatly; Moses also was displeased.
And Moses said unto the Lord, Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant? and wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight, that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me?
Have I conceived all this people? have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me, Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child, unto the land which thou swarest unto their fathers?

“Moses said unto the Lord”
“Wherefore hast thou afflicted thy servant”
“wherefore have I not found favour in thy sight”
“that thou layest the burden of all this people upon me”
“Have I conceived all this people”
“have I begotten them, that thou shouldest say unto me”
“Carry them in thy bosom, as a nursing father beareth the sucking child”

Rabbi Kula -- Commentators such as yourself will frequently identify two opposing opinions on an issue, then offer a "third way." Readers will identify somewhat with one side of the debate, then decide whether the "third way" addresses the reluctance they had in joining one of the two "teams" offered by the commentator.

I don't think that your discussion begins at the right point. Most people recognize that we are unable to answer satisfactorily the fundamental questions regarding our existence, and most people either ignore the big questions or accept that they must remain unanswered. Our brains have evolved to increase our chances of survival, not our ability to understand why we exist. It is only a significant minority that rely upon "faith" to develop answers for the unanswerable questions. The rest of us just accept the natural limitations of the human brain.

The question I'd like to begin with is this: Are the brains of the faithful physiologically different than the brains of the secular? Perhaps neuroscience can help us determine why many people find it difficult to live effectively with unanswered questions. Once we understand why such people need "faith," we can consider how the demand for this "product" effects our political campaigns.

There's no one liner between them. Look at a map, with all those lines. Take it to the county line and cross over. You end up in a different county. The customs are different, the churches are different and the people are different.

Where do we draw the line between faith and government? This is what this entire article proposes but the failure is on the details. Let us examine the details closely. Imposing a set of moral values that criminalizes half of the population for an abortion based on a book called the bible can be a good place to draw the line. Let us see another example: imposing a Christian brand of religion in our public schools over any other type of faith because Christians hold the majority in this nation sounds like another good place to draw the line. Uh! let us see another one. Imposing creationism under its new repackage name which Christians call a science -intelligent design- as a viable and evidence based theory for how we are here can be another place to draw the line. How about making worlwide decisions on international policy so that we can help the God chosen israelis without any other merit than because the Bible tells us so, is another one.The list can grow exponentially big if we add the rules and regulations of the good book and rewrite our secular laws and the constitution based upon their "moral" values.Let us criminalize adultery, taking gods name in vain, working on Sundays, but oh no, the Christians cherry pick what they want to take and ignore from the good book all the time. Secularist have already given up enough ground in this so called re negotiation. Now god entered our political debates. Our candidates have to state which brand of religion they profess in order to be even considered as a viable for office. This culminated in last Saturday's first ever faith based pastor moderated presidential debate. A total embarrassment of two presidential hopefuls. We have allowed an increasing number of ministers endorsing candidates right from the pulpit. We already allowed federal funds to flow into our increasing number of tax exempted churches to help the poor without any oversight. The line has already gotten really blurry. This has opened the flood gates and the Christian right wants more. They want for the definition of religion and faith to be no different than reason. They are calling secularism a religion. Now opposites, contradictory terms are somehow synonyms as by some form of transformation. The continuous negotiation has opened the flood gates to ignorance. Ignorance has entered our schools and our government. The point is, some things cannot be negotiated. If we continue this path, we might as well rewrite the constitution to the liking of the Christian majority and the heck with the 20 percent of nonbelievers, agnostics and non religious.

We should add another aspect: the growing inability to use words with distinction. Current
conversation scrambles religion, church, faith, theology and spirituality. People’s inadequacy to separate those in their minds reveals the low level of understading that exists in the public.

The pandering by both McCain and Obama only served to continue the decline.

I wonder if we could use your "third way" as a paradigm for the issues of religion and state in Israel.

Joel Katz

Religion and State in Israel

http://religionandstateinisrael.blogspot.com/

Thanks, Rabbi. As an Evangelical myself, I appreciate your expansion on Warren's quip. I wish more on both sides of the aisle saw it this way.

Government punishes us and faith heals us. Take care of yourself. Everybody wants to go to heaven and nobody wants to go right now.