What constitutes fairness?

"Poverty is unjust."

Not necessarily. Nothing is free, you aren't entitled to anything.

If you're going to rely the kindness of strangers, don't expect that their kindness is an obligation.

Art Linkletter was famous for his "Kids Say the Darndest Things" TV show. How things have changed. Now, the Republicans say the darndest, whackiest things imaginable in a pathetic attempt to find some way to put lipstick on the pig that is their bankrupt 'philosophy'.

Reagan Revolution, my @ss!

Get serious! This is not about taking from the rich and giving to the poor. It's about letting everyone but the rich continue a tax break they've grown accustomed to, but asking the top 2 percent to pay higher taxes. Now, this additional 3.5 percent in taxes will not be taken from the rich and given to the poor, it will be taken from the rich and given to the Congress, which will use it for earmarks and other pet projects, and to pay interest on debts it has already incurred, and to fund new defense projects in members' districts, and on and on. So get serious. Or if you can't be serious, be fair. This is NOT a religious issue.

"God does not tell us to go out and steal from the rich to give to the poor."

It's been a long, long time since anything like that has happened- what has been happening since 1980 is government-enabled stealing from the poor and giving [copiously] to the rich. The results have been disastrous.

Jklfairwin-
"When the super rich , who in our society are the super strong, take way more than their share"

And who are you to determine what is their share? They take what they earn. If you don't like it, then start being useful so you can earn more. If you can't earn more, then apparently you suck at being useful.

" The poor, the powerless, and even the middle class, who are now increasingly powerless, are losing the class war that the super rich started in 1980."

Apparently you've never taken a history class. The conflict between rich and poor started WAY WAY WAY before 1980. And the poor were far more powerless in the past than they are now. But using the government as a weapon against the rich is a strategy that will backfire. Especially if you have never taken an economics class either, and are attempting to form an economics policy out of pure ignorance.

Mary Margaret McBride dreamed of being a writer. She went to her aunt and said I can't be a teacher, I feel I've got to be a writer. The aunt said, "then you must earn your own way." Fair enough?

This pretense at fairness by taking a middle position is just a cop out. When the super rich , who in our society are the super strong, take way more than their share, taking the middle position is just selling out to the super rich. The poor, the powerless, and even the middle class, who are now increasingly powerless, are losing the class war that the super rich started in 1980.

The thought of a progressive tax system is thought to be punitive on the rich, however unchecked capitalism where the rich take advantage of the poor is not considered punitive?

If a woman is carrying heavy packages, I offer to help. In any just society the strong help the weak. Heck, even rats do this. It is not only just but logical. Those that reap most from the system, should support the system that they milk. If I own a design firm that makes millions of dollars on its inventions, I should support the government that protects my inventions with more intensity than someone making 20K at a convenience store.

The point is that the burden of taxation should not be borne by the poor and middle class.

Of course, Moline is right that the issue is not taxation alone, at least, from a Judaic standpoint. Chesed, justice is the issue. Poverty is unjust. That is why it must be ended and that is why those who have must give to those who have less.

This not only concerns the rich but all of us. Jews MUST give, so I don't know what Moline is talking about. Every house has a box of sorts, a literal box, or a checkbook.

My hyper-secular Mzrahi mother, secular cum atheist, had such a box when we first came here fleeing Iran, with not a dime and no place to live. Nevertheless very month she emptied the box and wrote out a cheek.

I still recall my parents laughing one night as she did this. My father took off his one pair of shoes and said, "Send them."

Excellent.

All of the writers seem to have forgotten about God's 10th commandment of the sin of coveting thy neighbor's property. I have found those who continually say things like "the rich don't deserve their wealth" and that it should be "shared with the rest of us" are on pretty thin moral ground.

martimr1:
“Why do the wealthy believe they need so much”
The problem with assessing ‘need’ is the problem of relativity.
Lets assume that you make a (U.S.)living wage, live in a home with an affordable mortgage, have a five year old reliable car for your spouse and a ten year old daily commuter for yourself, three bedrooms, two baths, two kids, one dog, one cat, a thirty two inch flat screen, basic cable, internet access and one cell phone each.…you know, basic stuff, hardly wealthy.
You do realize that to the majority of the world’s population, you are, with these modest assets, very, very wealthy? Why do you need so many bathrooms? And they’re indoors? Central air conditioning? A television shared by only four people? A yard? Who possibly NEEDS all that luxury? A refrigerator with FOOD? Leftovers?

With these tax rate reductions ‘for the rich’ (over $250,000) we are not just looking at zillionaires like Bill Gates (who gives millions away to charity, as well as pays millions in taxes) We are talking about small – medium sized business owners, doctors, lawyers, plumbers. Yes they can probably afford a few luxuries that you and I cannot, but greedy? If you remotely fit the profile in the previous paragraph, then you too are wealthy, rich, living amongst a pile of luxuries that are unavailable to most. Why do you NEED all that excess stuff?
That’s the problem with denigrating/demonizing the rich. You, yourself are ridiculously rich to someone else.

MARTIMR1 - how strange a mind it must take to determine theft on whether or not someone needs what you took from them.

Ownership is not dependent upon need.

Oh, yeah. Rabbi Moline, I have never heard anyone say that progressive taxes should exist to "punish" the rich. (Maybe some of the rich think they are being punished..) But the point of progressive taxation is that it is moral because it only takes what the rich don't need and typically won't miss. It's only the idea of progressive taxation that upsets the rich and greedy, not the fact of it.

How very strange a mind it must take to characterize taxation as "stealing from the rich."

Why do the wealthy believe they need so much? Why do they even CARE at what rate they are taxed? After a couple of million a year net, the marginal value of an additional dollar of income is negligible. You can't sail more than one yacht at a time, or live in more than one house. Why have seven homes when you can afford five-star hotels everywhere you go?

The argument some make, that almsgiving should be a personal act, is completely bogus. I can understand being too busy, too involved in work (or yachting) to find time for charity. But taxation is automatic. It's the perfect solution.

Abandon meanness, please! I'm not a Christian, but I know what Jesus was talking about with the camel and the needle.

CHAOTICIAN101:
"If those getting more, for any reason, do not in fact provide more for their society, then they are in fact immoral and parasitic!"

At exactly what point does part of your hard-earned income become mine? Would it not be immoral for you to earn a single dime more than me?

"Spoken in the true hypocritical mindset of today's wealth Christians!

It's actually Jesus who makes this clear and who gives them this responsibility. Jesus very specifically commands his followers to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, tend to the sick, comfort the suffering, to pay unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and also states that it will be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it will be for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

So what is it in these instructions and teachings that these supposed christians don't comprehend? "Woe unto you... hypocrites" is another teaching these phonies should study. They are the real cafateria christians.

POSTED BY: TOC59 | DECEMBER 14, 2010 4:24 PM "

TOC59 - not once in all that you wrote did you ever indicate that Jesus gave us permission to steal to do good works with the profits from our theft.

You are calling me a hypocrite because I still believe in the commandment "Thou shalt not steal."

You even acknowledge that Jesus didn't command that of everyone. You said "Jesus very specifically commands his followers feed the hungry" etc.

Where does it say that Jesus specifically commands his followers to steal from the wealthy to do what he asks us to do? He commands us to do good deeds with our own wealth, not with other people's wealth.

He says it is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of the needle than for a rich man to enter heaven. He doesn't then extend that to saying "therefore, make sure your neighbor isn't rich by stealing from him, and by doing that, you'll be helping him get into the kingdom of heaven."

You're the hypocrite who believes that the Bible tells us to steal. It's hard to believe that you've been so easily led to believe that God wants us to steal. You're a disgrace.

The issue here transcends whether the Tax Giveaways for the wealthy are moral or not! At issue is the governance of the nation! What is immoral is the acceptance that a desirable thing, unemployment benefits, can be purchased by an undesirable thing, tax cuts. What is immoral is the high-jacking of the political process by dirty tricks, arcane rules, acts of privilege and power! What is immoral is the need or decision to do a backdoor stimulus using tax cuts, tax loopholes, tax termination! If a stimulus is needed, then a real stimulus, thought out and enacted is what is needed. If tax cuts are affordable and appropriate, then this should be done as well. What is immoral is the so-called compromise, horse trading of our politicians along with the connivance of our President to accomplish anything! Balancing bad stuff to get good stuff; bribing politicians with pork and earmarks; giving and receiving political favors; the blatant purchase of public representatives by corporate, wealthy, religious, other special interests; these are immoral, these are malfeasance, and these are acts of treason!

And society exists to provide for all in that society; giving more to anyone is a bribe to that one to product enough extra to benefit everyone about the inequity of the bribe! If those getting more, for any reason, do not in fact provide more for their society, then they are in fact immoral and parasitic!

When I don't want to pay higher taxes, that is hardly immoral. Or, it is more correct to say "Your wanting me to pay for your 'stuff' no more or less immoral than me refusing to to pay for it".

Its two sides of the same coin.

Yes, we form a government to tax people to pay for things we believe is in the common good. But there is no morality involved what gets taken and what is given. Trying to pretend otherwise is simply a talking point with no real meaning.

Gabriel Rockman states: "God does not tell us to go out and stealfrom the rich to give to the poor.

"How is this clear? Who gives them this responsibility?"

Spoken in the true hypocritical mindset of today's wealth Christians!

It's actually Jesus who makes this clear and who gives them this responsibility. Jesus very specifically commands his followers to feed the hungry, clothe the naked, tend to the sick, comfort the suffering, to pay unto Ceasar what is Ceasar's and also states that it will be easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle than it will be for a rich man to enter the kingdom of heaven.

So what is it in these instructions and teachings that these supposed christians don't comprehend? "Woe unto you... hypocrites" is another teaching these phonies should study. They are the real cafateria christians.

Is it immoral to oppress your fellow human being? In our society, it seems that the wealthy business owners or corporate CEOs, et al, are using the bad economy and threat of outsourced jobs, as a way to suppress fair wages. I know adults who have lost their jobs where they were making decent $25-40/hr salaries and health benefits. They are now given the choice of minimum wage positions with little or no benefits. The minimum living wage in this country, for a family of four, should be $22/hr, based on average costs for goods and services, housing prices and food, according to leading labor statistic professors and economists. So, how are supposed to live on $7.25/hr? This is the immoral aspect to this tax cut for the wealthy.

There are lots of Gods representing lots of societies in our country and on this planet. One would not expect agreement amongst them on this topic. There is though one thing they would certainly agree on .. Life is not fair. They understand this, and the very rich understand this. Enough said.

"People with riches have a clear responsibility to forgo indulgence in order to be generous with the poor. "

How is this clear? Who gives them this responsibility? To be indulgent goes against my personal sense of right and wrong, as well as what I believe God to have commanded of me, but I see no justification for forcing these two personal beliefs onto others.

God tells us to go out and spread the gospel. God does not tell us to go out and steal from the rich to give to the poor.