The fine line between persuasion and manipulation

fr spidermean2:

>...It's a shame that liberal people like Jane Edwards call themselves Christians or even Pastor (there is no woman pastor in the Bible) when it seems that they are servants of the devil by believing in LIES....

Um, not true. WOMEN in the Bible, such as Ruth, Naomi, Anna, Dorcas, etc were all prophetesses, which are equal to pastors. The pastor of our UMC is a WOMAN. Sorry that you don't like WOMEN in positions of authority.

Isn't it kind of childish to believe ancient tales of gods and devils, and heaven and hell? Our forebears were even more ignorant thousands of years ago than we are today. These are tales made up out of fear and ignorance by folks who knew nothing about the real world, nothing at all.
Of course there are no gods. And of course there is no heaven and no hell either.

I chuckle and shake my head that we continue to argue about such nonsense.

PROSELYTIZATION is a manifestation of the SUPREMACIST foundation of Christianity & Islam.

No one else has this serious flaw that Christians and Muslims have in their "religions" or spiritual systems. Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Zoroastrians, Jews, Wiccans, Animists, etc.. are all trying to make themselves better, not trying to undermine others.
Conversion has caused some of the biggest problems in third world countries.
The "charity" and "kind deeds" are insincere and deceptive actions, and therefore, are acts of evil.

Muslims & Christians don't seem to get the basics of goodness and spirituality. Pretending to be good while having and ulterior motive fools no one and is an act of evil. This can lead to crusades and suicide terrorism.
REMEMBER: Almost all religious conflicts in the world involve Muslims or Christians on one side or both.
Sneakiness, deception, conversion, undermining other cultures, etc... is offensive and nonspiritual.

You really feel the urge to do charity? Go to the inner city in America and help those in need. Look in your own family and help those who are depressed or drunk or angry.
Stop going to 3rd world countries and causing problems & hurting others.

Deepest thanks to all who have commented on my thoughts here. In particular, I find a theme that has emerged in some of the comments from InTheMiddle and others regarding the place of the gay and lesbian faithful in our midst particularly provocative and want to respond directly to some of these thoughts. First, I agree completely with you that Christians are no longer under the Law of Moses. We are under grace through Jesus Christ and compelled to obey the greater law of love. And one aspect of that law of love is Jesus' repeated message that judgment belongs to God. In Acts 10 Peter is taught to move past his own judgments about what is against God’s law, and in particular the categories of clean and unclean in the Leviticus code — the same judgment often held against lesbian and gay Christians today. I have written more on this in my blog post this week which you can read and comment upon here: http://www.timetoembrace.com/how-acts-10-informs-my-faith. Again, I thank you for sharing your thoughts with such openness and honesty. It is only through prayerful dialogue that, together, we may seek to discern God’s will.

Peace, Janet Edwards

[In an email to the Guardian on 30 November, Scott Lively (THE Evangelical Christian accused of this LIE) said, "I have stated publicly that I do not support the bill as written. It is far too harsh and punitive. My purpose in addressing members of the Uganda parliament in March was to urge them to emphasise therapy, not punishment in their anti-homosexuality law." His long-standing position was, he said, that public policy should "actively discourage homosexuality but only as aggressively as necessary to prevent its public advocacy, much the way laws against marijuana are used in various states here in the US: the law is very lightly enforced, if ever, but the fact the law is on the books prevents advocates of the drug from promoting it, for example, in public schools."]

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Clearly, the idiots like Janet Edwards are spreading lies. I don't think you understand that you are doing the work of the devil by spreading LIES.

Jesus Christ was crucified because of lies. I hope you understand the punishment of God for liars.

Christian evangelicals know for a fact that gay relationship has a place in hell. Besides, they also know that this kind of stupidity is self-destructive.

The main reason they evangelize is to PREVENT them from a sure hellish life and afterlife.

In other words, it does not make sense that Christian evangelicals would be a party to murdering the gays.

THIS IS ALL A BUNCH OF LIES AND TWISTED FACTS.

It's a shame that liberal people like Jane Edwards call themselves Christians or even Pastor (there is no woman pastor in the Bible) when it seems that they are servants of the devil by believing in LIES.

I don't think Uganda will be nuked but for sure, the liberal hypocritical parts of America will be devastated.

The PUNISHMENT is soon coming.

"Likewise, their men have given up natural sexual relations with women and burn with lust for each other. Men commit indecent acts with men, so they experience among themselves the PUNISHMENT they deserve for their perversion." (Romans 1:27)

You can take everything that humans have ever said about god and flush it. It means nothing but it does result in age-old raging conflicts. That's the reality of religion.

INTHEMIDDLE

I don't really care what the Bible says, but I am wondering whether God caused all those mudslides in Uganda, because they haven't started executing gays fast enough, or because they haven't also made animism and Islam practices that are punishable by death. If you get Pat Robertson's take on this, I love to hear it.

Unfortunately, there are many who have gone to Africa in the name of Christ and done many harmful things to the people and culture. There are many Christian groups who have gone to the many impoverished people of Africa and have manipulated the Gospel to make people believe that by giving all their money to their pastors and church leaders God will grant them everything they want. I think those that manipulate African Christians for personal gain or agendas is offensive and a detriment to all those who are doing great work there to bring hope and help to the people of Africa.

However, I do want people to know that the continually growing movement among evangelical Christian missions is to find ways to integrate the culture of a people with Christianity and the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Many evangelical Christians have come to realize that culture is also something wonderfully created by God and should be respected, and that there is no "right" culture. The Gospel should help those who are broken and needy realize that there is a hope beyond this world, that despite their circumstances, that there is someone who loves them unconditionally, gives them worth, and in whom they can place their trust and hope. It does not matter where you are from or how you live. And that in turn, that they can bring the same to others. When you have good news, you share it with other, and it's no different with the Gospel - the Good News of Christ.

How people can be so superstitious is beyond me. How can you believers think such nonsense. Don't you have brains?

Smearing evangelicals as a whole for following the Great Commission is ridiculous. Ms. Edwards would benefit from contact with more people like those who work for World Vision or Evanelicals for Social Action. This is another example of intolerance and distortion by liberal Christian leaders, and there seem to be more and more of them.

The Bible makes it clear that men mating with men and women with women are not God's intention.

I recommend Romans 1 as an appropriate scripture.

If you don't believe in the Bible, then obviously what it says is not meaningful to you. I am just reporting what it says.Posted by: InTheMiddle

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As long as we're going to report what the Bible says, here is some more:

Leviticus 20:10 'If a man commits adultery with another man's wife—with the wife of his neighbor—both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death.

The best thing we could do for people who suffer poverty and ignorance anywhere on earth is teach them empiricism and rationalism.

Awright, Congrats to your son. I was a Kenya PCV in the 1980s. Wonderful place and people.

But...

>>>>One resident, Daniel, a Maasai warrior, shared with me how he became a Christian. His story included a water buffalo, hours hanging injured in a tree, and months in a hospital where evangelicals cared for him.>>>>

Dr. Edwards, approaching people when they are weak to take advantage of their vulnerability IS manipulating them.

Evangelization is a great moral wrong, and should be outlawed. It's time that Christians stopped going around the world attempting to stamp out all other forms of belief and replace them with their own. In itself it is wrong, and it leads, inevitably, to abuses.

Michael Turton
RCPV Kenya 1987-88

A current example of tremendous concern to me is the situation in Uganda, where a bill is pending in the Parliament -- in part due to the activism and influence of American evangelicals -- to punish people convicted of homosexuality with death or, as a concession to international uproar, life imprisonment.

At the same time, it makes perfect sense that Christianity is growing exponentially in Africa where the wretched suffering of the people is exactly what Jesus spoke to, touched, comforted and healed.

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The above paragraphs amount to the sum total of your Column. In respect they cancel each other out completely.

The Evangelicals in this country have no RIGHT to influence an Government to in effect MURDER people, because they dislike their Sexual preference.

The American Evangelicals has not only taken upon itself to ACT as enforcers of the Law, but much worse to hold themselves up as GOD. They have no right to decide, who should LIVE or DIE!!!

The Bible speaks clearly of "FALSE PROPHETS, and EVIL IN HIGH PLACES.

They are not different than the Taliban.

How about a discussion about good and bad Muslims in Africa. Or is that culturally insensitive?

It has become quite fashionable to lash out at fundamentalist Christians in the USA. I know for a fact that for decades evangelicals like T.L. Osborn and Reinhard Bonnke have had a tremendous influence of good on many African leaders. Unless you have seen at least one of Bonnke's crusades with as many as a MILLION Africans in a single meeting (not a typo either) I really don't think you are qualified to speak about evangelical Christians in Africa. Instead of this postiive influence of Christian evangelists over the years, this writer chooses to link Christians to these laws against homosexuals without any real sources. How about pointing out how extreme Muslims demand far worse than even these alleged Christians in many African nations? No that would not help your activist gay rights agenda. I wonder if you think God voilated the law of love as he blinded and threw Saul to the ground before he was renamed Paul?

OH JEZUS MOTHER MARIA WHAT A SCAM THIS RELIGION BS IS, A TOTAL FRAUD IT POISONS EVERYTHING IT TOUCHES!

fr inthemiddle:

>...Other uses of sexuality: having sex with dogs, farm animals, children, etc. are not God's intention.
The Bible makes it clear that men mating with men and women with women are not God's intention.
I recommend Romans 1 as an appropriate scripture.

It's very sad that homophobes always think glbts are going to commit bestiality, pedophilia, etc, when it is clearly NOT true.

I recommend "judge not, lest YE be judged" as an appropriate scripture.

Ms Edwards, your post if thoughtful and gives me hope that there really are a lot of Christians out there that follow their own religion rather than preach hate and try to force everyone to conform to their beliefs.

As for rubytues63, you are so uninformed and ignorant I won't bother to educate you on what a number of high profile Christians have done to push the Uganda law against homosexuals. It would be pointless.

Your claims that American missionaries are responsible for homophobia or sexual persecution in Uganda are misplaced. There are very few, if any, parts of the Dark Continent where homosexuals are free to live openly and it has been that way since long before Christianity had any influence there.

There is also a stark difference between proselytizing (converting people to Christianity) and lobbying foreign politicians for or against any law or legal position. If evangelicals are lobbying the government for or against any bill or proposal, they are not proselytizing.

The Great Commission commands Christians to baptize nations in the name of the father and the son and the holy spirit. In this context it uses the word 'nations' to refer to all people, regardless of nationality or ethnic differences. To literally baptize a nation would require that we flood the land and that is not what the Great Commission means. Nor does it mean that Christians should or must create theocracies wherever they go.

Good luck with your passionate crusade for gay rights in Africa, but next time you blog please keep to the topic.

Once again Christians rear their ugly head. All religions contain something along these lines which is why organized religion is a scourge. So much evil has been done in the name of God. Evangelicals were among the first to support Mussolini and Hitler and many other fascists and little has changed. One must realize that these folks would like to see gays put to death in this country but they know they can't get away with it here. If another Republican had been elected, they would have been more bold about pursuing it here.

Sexuality is God-given but is intended to be restricted to between a husband and wife.

Other uses of sexuality: having sex with dogs, farm animals, children, etc. are not God's intention.

The Bible makes it clear that men mating with men and women with women are not God's intention.

I recommend Romans 1 as an appropriate scripture.

If you don't believe in the Bible, then obviously what it says is not meaningful to you. I am just reporting what it says.

If sexuality is God given, how can homosexuality be wrong and against God's plan? Make up your mind. Or read what you write.

No genuine Bible-believing Christian would condone, much less support, a law putting someone to death for homosexual acts. It is true that under the Law of Moses, such acts could be punished by stoning. However, Christians are not under the Law of Moses but under grace and the greater law of love.

That said, a Bible-believing Christian would teach that homosexuality is not God's intention for men and women. It is, according to the Bible, a perversion of what is good: our God-given sexuality. The Christian would then teach about the forgiveness of our sins through Christ's sacrifice on the cross and the promise that when we have faith in Christ we are dead to sin but alive to God.

One doesn't have to go to Africa to find "Christians" who don't understand that the Gospel is an invitation to all people to salvation in Jesus Christ. It is meaningless if this invitation is "accepted" because of manipulation or coercion. For 2,000 years, there have been people who have violated the law of love in their attempts to spread the Gospel. Unfortunately, there will always be those kinds of people.

The good news is that there are many people who are being faithful to the Bible in sharing the Good News with those who are lost.