What Government Joins Together

I think it is strange to mention clergy acting as agents of the government as an acceptable expression of the Separation of Church and State.
What good is accomplished by clergy acting as agents of the government, or the government defining what marriage is? Both seem to be a gross breach of the notion of the separation of Church and State.
Let people define their own relationships, why involve the government?

"The fact that rights are suppressed by those in positions of authority doesn't mean that they aren't inherent."

Using the same demand in logic that atheists use on those claiming god exists, please provide the proof that inherent rights exist.

Posted by: edbyronadams | June 2, 2009 11:44 AM
So, where were the rights before human effort established them? Inherent would seem to me to mean apparent when they weren't for most of human history.
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The fact that rights are suppressed by those in positions of authority doesn't mean that they aren't inherent. It doesn't even mean that they aren't apparent to those who seek to deliberately obscure them from general view.

"Human rights and equality are not handed down by priests or priestesses, they are *inherent.* Whatever you believe in."
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So, where were the rights before human effort established them? Inherent would seem to me to mean apparent when they weren't for most of human history. Claiming that they have an independent existence is the same thing that Jefferson claimed using the "Creator", he being smart enough to know that you can't claim that they simply arose from nothing. Certainly there is no Darwinian explanation for the generation of rights.

CCNL: Hmmm, interesting that the pagan representatives did not note anything about Christian and/or Jewish homosexuals committing the sin of fornication outside the mutual masturbation/outercoursing sanctioned unions.
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Could be that we don't really care what other people do with their naughty bits as long as they're not harming anyone else with them.
See, for this Pagan, the only sexual "sin" is proceeding without consent from the other party/parties or proceeding when it violates a trust.
Whatever issues your deity may have with how or with whom consenting adults get their rocks off is between you and him. It's none of my concern.

Necessary reading: The description of Wicca from Wikipedia:

"Wicca (pronounced /ˈwɪkə/) is a neopagan, nature-based[1] religion. It was popularised in 1954 by Gerald Gardner, a retired British civil servant, who at the time called it Witchcraft and its adherents "the Wica".[2]

Wiccans, as followers of Wicca are now commonly known, typically worship a God[3] (traditionally the Horned God) and a Goddess (traditionally the Triple Goddess), who are sometimes represented as being a part of a greater pantheistic Godhead, and as manifesting themselves as various polytheistic deities. Other characteristics of Wicca include the ritual use of magic, a basic code of morality, and the celebration of eight seasonal-based festivals.

Wiccan morality is largely based on the Wiccan Rede, which states "an it harm none, do what ye will". This is usually interpreted as a declaration of the freedom to act, along with the necessity of taking responsibility for what follows from one's actions and minimising harm to oneself and others.[35] Another common element of Wiccan morality is the Law of Threefold Return which holds that whatever benevolent or malevolent actions a person performs will return to that person with triple force,[36] similar to the eastern idea of karma.

Many Wiccans also seek to cultivate a set of eight virtues mentioned in Doreen Valiente's Charge of the Goddess,[37] these being mirth, reverence, honour, humility, strength, beauty, power and compassion. In Valiente's poem, they are ordered in pairs of complementary opposites, reflecting a dualism that is common throughout Wiccan philosophy. Some lineaged Wiccans also observe a set of 161 Wiccan Laws, commonly called the Craft Laws or Ardanes. Valiente, one of Gardner's original high priestesses, argued that these rules were most likely invented by Gerald Gardner himself in mock-archaic language as the by-product of inner conflict within his Bricket Wood coven.[38][39]

Although Gerald Gardner initially demonstrated an aversion to homosexuality, claiming that it brought down "the curse of the goddess",[40] it is now generally accepted in all traditions of Wicca."

Hmmm, RCC priesthood and homosexuality?? Wicca goddesses and homosexuality?? Interesting!!!!

I mean, really, CCNL: it's the ver saddest ting in the world that, you can't quite believe in what you're shovelling, so someone else has to pay, but you can't man up and take responsibility for what you *demand* be dne to others, cause you can't see past your own wanking, never mind tell anyone about global politics.

You try on a daily basis to hurt my real life as if that were all that could save you from your own vengeful os.

I say... Nay.

I say, if you can spend all this time trying to sisplace your own wanking onto others, you could have something to contribute.

I mean, don't look at me to want anything to do with you personally, but I'm still theoretically a priestess.

The world extends a great deal beond your penis, CCNL.

You may not like me for saing, but I'm not a gatekeeper to the world, either.

If there's a man in you, Well, I don't have to tell you nuffin.

Whatever you're trying to be *here* is less than nothing, though.

Go home.

Be home.

Be a human.

Even if in your own mind the whole world is taking a flying toss at the Moon.

She don't mind.

Guess it might be tough for you, ...if you admit *I'm* being human, well, you might have to face up to you being just human too.

"Maybe the are still reading the 2.5 million Google search hits under "mutual masturbation"???"

As for this of yours, CCNL, I really wouldn't know.

Apparently you do.

Doesn't mean a Gods-damed thing in *my* life even if it's a centerpiece of yours.

Have you ever known me to be insincere, whatever you think of me, 'Concerned Cristian now liberated?'

Do you have any real reason to believe that whartever our issues about you masturbating and apparently being insufficiently ashamed of it... Do not compare even remotely to anything about a marriage I had twenty years ago, nor one I hope to have recognized now?

Can. You. Even. Imagine. The face behing these words?

You don't even believe in your own God. Bust still want to be an authority on taking that out on others.

*scratching line in sand.*

Here's where the no starts.

Sport.

"Hmmm, interesting that the pagan representatives did not note anything about Christian and/or Jewish homosexuals committing the sin of fornication outside the mutual masturbation/outercoursing sanctioned unions."

You wanna know what's *really* interesting about that, CCNL?

When Pagans ponder the mysteries of 'life' .... what you do with your bits isn't even considered relevant.

It just never seems to come up.

Maybe you should go to some religion that considers your male bits *what the enire universe hinges upon* if you wanna be that important, ...child.

I know I give you a hard time, but there really is more.

I;m sorry that someone sold you on an idea that you can't have joy and wonder without hurting someone else in kind... But, Concerned Christian, please listen here.

If I really thought you were all as bad guy as you try to be, I would not speak to you.

You're free. And freer than you seem to be willing to know.

You come after everyone else in the world because you are afraid, but that will pass.

You can be here now. And God will not punish you for *looking.* Look at me. I'm a real human being with real loves, real experiences, and real hardships.

As much as I don't care for you Christians and your prevarications, I have never thought that your God, or any God that's a friend to humans, was as petty as you try to be, for whatever reason.

Trust your own Savior. Yes, people lie about him. But if you can't be my friend after all this talk, you aren't interested. And it has nothing to do with God or Jesus or islam or 'falws' or nuffin.

Just you.

Are you a human being?

I am. Right now. It'll have to do.

You?

Hmmm, interesting that the pagan representatives did not note anything about Christian and/or Jewish homosexuals committing the sin of fornication outside the mutual masturbation/outercoursing sanctioned unions.

Maybe the are still reading the 2.5 million Google search hits under "mutual masturbation"???

See, Ebryon, your own savior-guy there told you how to tell a good teaching:

You'll be known by your fruits.

He didn't say you got to rule the United States of America.

Take it from one of the 'fruits.'

"Rights arise from either of two sources. Either they arise independently from a "Creator", in which case religious debate applies, or they arise when they become established in the minds of the people,"

No, Ebryon.

We hold these truths to be *self-evident.*

No religious belief required.

Human rights and equality are not handed down by priests or priestesses, they are *inherent.* Whatever you believe in.

Rights arise from either of two sources. Either they arise independently from a "Creator", in which case religious debate applies, or they arise when they become established in the minds of the people, in which case the votes of the people or their representatives are essential to establishment. They should not arise from the edicts of black robed kings reading into documents sentiments that were not intended by the originators.

Mind you, I'm just guessing that any 'God' who 'designed' and implemented all the physical laws of the universe, only to tell CCNL to presume he must have issues with 'masturbation' ...well, if such were the state of affairs, he'd need *our* help and not the other way around.

Yaknow? Or you shot it for tonight, Concerned Christian?

Personally, Lepi, I think he was saving that cut-and paste for something like what I posted before he trolled. :)

CCNL:

At the risk of repeating myself, physical/emotional/spiritual marriage is about a lot more than what combination of organs, orifices, and/or objects a couple employs when knocking boots.

Legal marriage has nothing to do with how or even whether a couple knocks boots. Legal marriage is about a couple assuming certain legal responsibilities for each other, and being granted certain legal rights regarding each other.
Whether they go around the world several times a day or never so much as touch each other makes no difference as far as the legal aspects of their marriage.

Mother of the *Gods* CCNL, whattya want, a webcam in our bedroom?

What you got from 'girl-on-girl' porn designed for peepers' stinky repressions... err, righteous family-protecting'researchers' like yourself... has nothing to do with my marriage.

Hel, if you wanna keep us from having sex, keep on with denying us health care, that made our sex life something you'd find very un-titllating, err, 'righteous, ' err... Was there a compelling state interest in there somewhere?

I dunno, maybe you like to *watch* people suffer for lack of health care, struggle to keep a roof over our heads, and somehow still love each other.

You Christians with your calling other peoples lives 'Masturbation' as if there was some problem if it *was,* only shows what your 'good hands' are doing, and they ain't straying far from where you pee, if you know what I mean.

Let the grownups talk.

Call "same sex marriage/unions" what they really are i.e. the unions of mutual masturbators/outercoursers. (check your on-line resources to see that these terms are fairly common.)

Now that the correct terms are being used, consider the following:

Thou shalt Not Commit Adultery and Thou Shall Not Covet Thy Neighbors Wife/Husband/Partner with the corollary of Thou Shalt Not Fornicate pertain not only to heterosexual couples but also homosexual couples as well.

This probably is no concern to non-Christians or non-Jews but it should be a major concern to those religious types who believe in the teachings of the OT, NT, the Commandments and all of their corollaries.

So we have a Christian God (if it exists) who supposedly created all of us to include homosexuals. Said God is therefore responsible for the defective gene/mind-set that causes homosexuality.

One might therefore conclude from this that the Christian God would approve mutual masturbation/outercourse unions since that is the only sin-free state where any type of couple-sex can be performed.

Now vote!!!

Never could understand this about Christians claiming, 'Jesus died on the Cross to save you once and for all from 'Original Sin,' ... ...that's why you must find your own life and love evil and sinful or be punished forever,'

Yaknow, Never made sense to me, anyway.

Does lead to the question in Christian-land, .... if that 'Sacrifice' was such a *big deal* and once and for only...

Hey, what if it *worked?*

I could see that resulting in me having no blessed idea what you're on about. :)

I mean, you know, people are always saying, 'You openly being a queer person is 'Against God.'

Yah, right. It's not the Christian's *God* I particularly care to disbelieve in, it's their *world.* The world just ain't like that. Never said their Jesus wouldn't be perfectly welcome in *mine.* Maybe not such a big *deal,* but he doesn't seem such a bad guy.

Gods know, what if he *did* free us from this 'sin' thing you Christians and all are always on about, and no one noticed the freedom, in your zeal to 'fight 'sin?'

That'd actually be... Kind of funny. :)

"Isn't this true, though, of all issues of religion? Each side ALWAYS presumes that it, alone, is the voice of God.

--kjohnson3"

No, that's not true. Religious abusers will claim everyone else does what they do, but it's not the same, not for all religions in any structural way, nor even for all our Abrahamic friends.

Not even all atheists claiming they know what 'All Religion' does.

Religions often have dogmatic and structural problems, but these are not things done by God or Gods. People do these things. And can as easily not do them, one God, many Gods, or no God.

"People who claim religious conviction for denying full access to civil marriage run the risk of being found guilty of presuming that they alone speak for the voice of God."

Isn't this true, though, of all issues of religion? Each side ALWAYS presumes that it, alone, is the voice of God.

Good article, Reverend. (Actually a lot of stuff that people won't hear from anyone.)

Marriage, of course, wasn't always and everywhere cased on the 'Old-Testament' 'people-as-property'-based model, either.

Most of the Christians 'celebrating the eternity of heterosexual marriage' now take for granted and consider 'righteous' rights which you'd be accused of being a 'bra-burning feminist' for suggesting even a half a lifetime ago.

Churches stepping in to control it of course, did come later, and, of course, being heavily-reliant on over a millenium of Christian scribes who'd have a tendency to either make 'good marriage' seem to conform to their other scriptures, or make other people's cultures seem as barbaric as possible... well, people seem pretty ignorant of history and their own humanity.

These are largely people who think pornography has some Gorgon's gaze of 'temptation' and 'addiction,' but I presume reality for Christian clergy on the ground was little different than at any other time as regarded marriage... Not a 'definition,' (I can't seem to think of any instance where these missionaries incorporated making all those 'converts' they were so proud of get re-married once 'coverted,' you'd think they'd mention that if it were a big deal...)

Just life.

A lot of Christians think gay marriage and gay people just came out of nowhere. Actually, the struggle's been going on a long time.

When I was 'conceived' in this life, LBGT people were fighting in the streets of New York for the right not to get gang-raped by police and then brought up on 'morality charges' for assembling.

Love wasn't any different, though.