Defend the Innocent

The fact that this is even a debate is absolutely ridiculous. I personally have lost faith in pretty much all aspects of religion but the one think I see good about faith is the peace that it encourages. It is said in the bible that church is a holy place in which no evil can enter. Now people are trying to bring in a machine which has the sole purpose of killing people into a place committed to peace?

It is things like this that make people lose their faith

John Mark,

Another finger wagging tsk-tsk.

Your essays' last pargraph:

"Armed citizens, religious and otherwise, may behave badly, but unarmed and supine citizens will guarantee a more certainty injustice."

Further verification of your contra-Jesus stance.

Must we accept as best a badly behaving though armed citizenry? Better than being without warfare capabilities and in a state of relaxation. At least they are not pacifists, for Christs sake!

How far we have come from the message. Indeed, it is hard to be a peacemaker.

John Mark,

Another word of thanks. I mentioned earlier that I had emailed your essay, comments on this thread, to the rabbi whose synagogue I occasionally attend, thinking she'd be pleased to know that someone out there cared.

Evidently, she was, since she forwarded them with words of encouragement to all of us.

Thanks again!

Farnaz

Hello ThomasBaum,

In more basic Christian thought we are encouraged not to judge, or to avoid the tendency to judge, and to in fact stay non-judgmental. Indeed, that is no easy task. It is a basic practice in Buddhism as well, even more particularly and clearly stated. To be non-judgmental, non-attached, present and living in loving allowance.

Not easy, any of it. The basic nature of human consciousness, it's fundamental programming, goes contrary to these practices and life stances.

I find that most Christians do not practice these arts, and their doctrine only supports them in word, but not in deed. The support system in most Christian communities that I have known speak these words, but in the heart of it give wide berth to human nature.

I think that it is in the concept of being in the exclusive club of those "born again" and baptized into the Spirit. Being forgiven and cleansed of sin, in their view, they need not work to realize "Just as I am so you also must be".

Just skating through life with a sure seat in the Afterlife....

Like a drug.

I agree with you. Christians can be among the most judgmental humans I know. I know many.

justillthen

I wrote, ""It is not my place, your place or any other human being's place to judge others.""

You replied, "Rubbish, Thomas. We ALL judge, daily and moment by moment. Every second we judge."

I never said that we don't judge, I said that it is not someone's place to judge if that someone calls themself a "Christian", I have said that God asked me to speak. Jesus said, "Judge not, lest ye be judged", He also said, "The measure that you judge with WILL BE the measure you are judged with".

It seems as if some who call themself "Christian" are among the most judgmental people on the planet. One could say that this is making a judgment or one could say that this is taking a honest look at reality.

Granted, there are times that "judgements" must take place on this earth, Jesus said as much, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's".

You also wrote, "Your statement on judgment is a nice philosophy based on Christian ideology, but is false as applied to the baser self, (which is, unfortunately, what 99.9999999% of people are engaged in."

I did not make this as a philosophical statement or anything of the sort what I tried to point out is what Jesus said and what so many "Christians" so conviently ignore.

Didn't some of the people back then say more than once about some of the things Jesus said, "These are hard sayings."? I concur.

You also wrote, "That said, I cannot imagine Jesus, at that time, speaking evil or harshly of the centurion. It was not His nature, and it was not His Way."

Is that right? Seems as if Jesus spoke very harshly at some of the Pharisees and in the Temple, how about the thing with the "money changers"?

Since God is God and I'm not, there is no way that I can tell anyone else how to follow God-Incarnate, Jesus, if they believe and/or know that Jesus is Who He Is and take Jesus up on His invitation to "Come follow Me" but when people spew out such vile, bitter bile about God and know nothing about God except for God's Name then, yes, I will speak out.

Until God's Kingdome is fully in place, so to speak, God works thru people and those people that "administer" justice will answer for their administration of justice.

I am counting on God's Justice and God's Mercy which happen to be two sides of the same coin, so to speak.

I am here to tell the world that the "Good News" truly is "Good News" and it is "Good News" for all, it is not 'good enough news' for some which would be absolutely horrible news.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

O' O.U.R. Dear fellow AMERICAN's, & Friendly's: DO NOT believe in White-Hous's BIG LiE!

According to todays NEWS; DO-NOT, NO/NOT BELiEVE [Todays] THE U.S. Controlled News-Networks nor such FEDeraly paid SiNdicates via PENTAGON & CO. i [WE] know, via facts & 'TRUTH' (opposite MYTH) THAT: Osam Bin Laden is Really/Acually Dead; since June 2007 by a Botched Kidney-Transplant Failure.

Do not Listen to the News-Networks nor believe their "FAKE-TAPES" [Voice makeovers] P-R-o-p-a-g-a-n-d-a's campaign. Osam Bin Laden is Really Dead; since June 2007! Shame on BUSH! Shame on OBAMA, POLOSi, BADEN et al!

Osam Bin Laden is Really Dead; Osam Bin Laden is Really Dead; since June 2007!

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DEAR "C.ONcered C.hristian N.ow L.iberated" & CO;

According to Ye Jealous Diciples @ LUKE12:51.. that

Your (not OUR) "NT" , as if ye (not OUR) god be in 'Flesh' & 'Blood' is in fact "ANTi-HUMANITY" & thuseth, but FREUDiANTLY slipeth'd & begged yo singing, "Suppose? I came not to make/bring YE (not Us) PEACE [Blessing]; but NO-NO-NO rather & in TRUTH (opposite MYTH) I, ye Rabbi & PELEGian-Yashua/Jesus-gods player, INSTEAD brings ye WAR [Blessing]s, D-V-i-S-i-o-n.." la la la. AND

@ LUKE:14:26 .... "HATE-HATE-HATE la la Ye-selves, Ye Kids, Ye Mother & Father, Syblings & ALL LIFE FORMS, if Ye want to Follow ME/US & get to the Kingdom..." [Similar sang]! Sooooo

C.C.N.L. & CO., a self-ordained/serving Expert on YE (not OUR) "N.ew T.estament" a Jealous Copy-Cat JUDEO-abe-JU Bible (Bas{orah) rehashed from YE (not OUR) "O.ld T.estament" and suddenly became the JUDEO-abe-CHRiSTO [un{ holy (Masorah) Book; similar to the Jealousy's of the WHABI JUDEO-abe-ISLAMIcO's!?

C.C.N.L & CO; YE art DRUNK & gots Blinded by Swallowing To much "PUKARIST" aka Symbolic Cannabilism & Vampirism [Communion/Eucharisk] via eating rabbi JESUS's FLESH & BLOOD in effigy! Luckilly for YE & Co; there are "EKLAHT"ion run REHAB CENTERS that can reverse the CURSE/SiNs of Ye Parents (not Ours) To Reverse the "WAR BLESSINGS & translate & Expose, to OUR S.S. Earthlings the "RiDDLES OF YE DEVIL/JINN/SATAN/KALi.."!

From Katharine Hendersons' essay:
just for a bit of sanity...

"I firmly believe that guns beget guns, that violence begets violence. Our only hope for the planet is not to mirror the violence of our wider culture but to try to transform the culture - to change the story - by standing vehemently on the side of peace like those prophetic witnesses each of our traditions prides itself upon. "Let me be an instrument of your peace; where there is hatred, let me sow love..." The words of St. Francis echo Jesus' own: "Blessed are the peacemakers.""

Here, just to be clear, "peacemakers" are a term for arbitrators of goodwill and positive transformation. Not another name for a Colt. Although there are those that errantly hold this misconception.

Hello John Mark,

Wow.

The paradox is stunning.

"Let me be clear as I can be:

1. Most of us in America are very, very safe . . . lucky to be here . . . and served by effective and honest law enforcement."

"I hope we can all agree that the REAL scandal, whatever our views of the actions of these particular rabbis, is the ineffective response of the state to the peril of good men and women.

Something should and must be done."

"This should not be tolerated but has gone on for years. Why should this be? Should they allow innocents to die while they wait for "help" that keeps on not coming?"

You appear to love to blame the state for the 'failure' of the realization of a safe and pastoral society, John Mark. But tell me, where is there a functioning society that is completely safe? It is certain that ideal is approached when both racial and cultural conditioning is homogenized. But I know of no place where, given cultural diversity, peace and tranquility are maintained.

If for no other reason than the psyche protects itself against difference. And justifies difference, and righteousness.

"Certain groups in American culture have strong historic reasons to think that state power will not always be on their side. This grounds a reasonable suspicion of the police power of the state in some parts (to give but one example) of the African-American community."

I am uncomfortable with your support for suspicion of the state and it's agents, Mr. Reynolds. I have had a great deal of respect for your intellect and philosophy, even as I disagree with them. But you beat the drum of the fringe. And though you may argue that what is fringe is not, and is in fact heartland, I find that to be more rhetoric and fear stoking propaganda of a separatist agenda.

We live in one of the best governmental forms on the planet, with federal and state forces that are, for the most part beyond reproach. They have good reason to be proud of their work, and protect this society and it's citizenry in a superior way.

You appear to forment the conception that 'they' are to be distrusted. You should be ashamed. But you are not, it seems, because you appear to believe this rubbish.

Encouraging citizens to distrust this government, and to carry arms as the government 'cannot protect the people', is compounding the problem a hundredfold. You should know this, clearly.

We have a very ordered and peaceful society, by and large, particularly for an integrated society. By seeking to foster an armed society to counterbalance perceived and real threats, how exactly are you furthering the Path presented by Jesus?

Hello ThomasBaum,

Sorry that it took a few days for my response to your post. Thank you for your input. Allow me to dive directly in.

"It is not my place, your place or any other human being's place to judge others."

Rubbish, Thomas. We ALL judge, daily and moment by moment. Every second we judge. That is not to say that it is our best interest to constantly judge what is in front of us, but it is the role of the individual identity, yes Ego, to do so so to categorize and clarify. We judge naturally everything.

Your statement on judgment is a nice philosophy based on Christian ideology, but is false as applied to the baser self, (which is, unfortunately, what 99.9999999% of people are engaged in.

"Jesus spoke very well of the "centurion" and this "centurion" was not only in the military but was also, it would seem, an officer."

Forgive me if I say that I am not a outright believer in the veracity of the Scriptures as a valid and perfect presentation of the Wisdom of the Master. I am of the belief that the Scriptures are edited and censured, and the glimpse that we have of Jesus is thus likewise skewed toward the desired pictorial of those that actually shaped the Bible of today.

That said, I cannot imagine Jesus, at that time, speaking evil or harshly of the centurion. It was not His nature, and it was not His Way.

Based on my understanding of the Way that He presented, I do not believe that He was a proponent, IN ANY WAY, of the use of violence or force to realize an intention.

He was a man of Peace. Utterly.

The justifications, (a word I use literally and meaningfully here), that Christians use to allow themselves to transgress into destructive actions, are not linked in my perception to the Teachings of the Master of that Way, Jesus. They are aberrations of the Path, a devolution of the Wisdom that Jesus gave, basically because the Ego of Joe Normal people cannot take the Path of Peace. They want an out for their own Dark Sides. So, they justify it... Simple.

u "religious" folks think you need to pack glocks to go to your church or synagogue, you must have good reason to believe something you did or believe caused it to be a dangerous place. Like a dark street at night in NYC, why would anyone want to go there?

Posted by: coloradodog | September 13, 2009 1:00 PM
--------------------------------

First, as you should know by now, I am far from being a "religious folk." I am an atheist. Second, you are blaming the victims, not an infrequent move by cultural and/or religious Christians, very, very sad to say.

Christian/Catholic churches have not been threatened for FOUR DECADES, or even one, by racist lunatic Islamist terrorists. I state this because you include churches. Only, according to the NYPD, newspapers, etc., have synagogues.

Can you imagine what kinds of action would have been taken FOUR DECADES ago if racist lunatic Islamists had threatened Christian/Catholic houses of worship? Err, yeah. It would not have gone on for a year, let alone FOUR DECADES.

America has freedom of the press. Although you live in Mexico, you have access the the internet. Suggest you use it next time before you blog on an issue of which you know nothing.

American Jews, cultural and observant, are Americans just like your culturally Christian self. We have the same rights, as taxpayers, as everyone else, including the right to live in peace.

Ponder that. Ponder that as you read about a few people shot because they were Jews wearing traditional garb driving over a bridge, shot by racist, lunatic Islamists.

What do you suggest? Are Jews entitled to the same protection as everyone else? Or should we start protecting ourselves? Should some start respond in kind, do you think?

If we respond in kind, will you write to Muslims that they must have done something wrong to deserve the threats they receive?

If you "religious" folks think you need to pack glocks to go to your church or synagogue, you must have good reason to believe something you did or believe caused it to be a dangerous place. Like a dark street at night in NYC, why would anyone want to go there?

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DEAR JOHN Marks R.

As [i] WE, Cyber-Citizen/Denizens of Holy Cosmic NEBULA-BUiLT S.S. Earth, will be celebrating [Posting on WAPO's 'onfaith' aka 'onreligion' blogg here since Jan/Feb 2008] THAT WE [i] Wish You & Ye Concerned-ones, or Followers, the "Best Of Goodbyes"!

PS:i [WE] will mail Ye (April 2010) a Hard-Copy of the "BiBLE OF THE FUTURE" , aka the "RELIGION Of Everything Before the SCIENCE Of Everything" [in Samizdat Edition]!

-- Note: ALL, EVERY & ANY tons of Gun(s), Matyre Suicide-Belts etc.. are in Reality or Truth (opposite MYTH) "MAN-MADE" Material objects. This Includes (please; NO Exception) ALL, EVERY & ANY Man-Made 'INFIXUS-BOOKS" [Chumash/Bibles of the "JUDEO-abe-JU's & JUDEO-abe-CHRISTO's, Geeta/Kangyurs of the JUDEO-vedic-HINDU's, Quran/Korans of the JUDEO-abe-ISLAMICs"..]

aka WEAPONS Of MASS DESTRUCTION [WMD] includes the PAGAN, WICCAN/WITCH & CO's plagerized books etc..! So; a GUN or a BIBLE cannot compare to a Naturally made Olive-Branch or a naturally concieved floural ROSE at that!

Question: Does "IT" aka G-D (never is "IT" a HE/HIM nor a SHE/HER) see or know of ALL "IT"s ATOMS that make-up the Composition of a socalled "CHUMASH/BIBLE la la la??? or can the Atoms of ANY man-made Bible/Quran/Geeta.. la la la See "iTSELF" [G-d, by manymanymany Names no-more by 99+ names]. Do the ATOMS of the Bible (paper) Hear YE or does G-D hear Ye via THEM innate, but very real "Holy Atoms" ???

POiNT: Even the 10-COMMANDMENTS are MAN-MADE & Zero E-K-L-A-H-Ti made! So, copmpeting Prophet(s), for Profit or not, are Man-Made. But as GENTs & LADYs that they [god(s) players & Novel-Stars in BIOFinite Carbon-based Form] are as naturally made as a wild Rose! Or is it a "SABRA" [i.e., a Cactus Fruit?]!

Heck; even Plants tilt towrds the "SOURCE" of the "Holy-PHOTONS" aka LiFE! Yet Organized Worshippers tilt toward their (not ours; or someone elses gods, Idols, Symbols, theory) "HE/HIM" & or "SHE/HER" as if be [their man-made] god(s) systems INSTEAD OF OUR [innate] G-D SYSTEM.

Note: SEX is NOT LOVE; only Pleasure! Guess how WE [i] YE , got, as art, here? And so the Chumash/Bible/Geeta/Qurans.. [man-made] callapse within their own SEXUAL-GUILT Stories & their DRUNKIN [racist] NOAH's stories etc.. thus reflecting & Projecting their own (not our) Tribal folklores via their (not our) Authors SUPERSTUPIDSTIOUSNESS on US "MEME"s!

Hence the Difference between an "APOCALYPT-ARiON", aka a "HUe{MATE" [like US MEME's] and a "PRE-APOCALYPTARIAN", aka a HUMAN [like Them]. i.e; an Apocalyptic aware Scientist is superior to a unaware Pre-Apocalyptic Scientist: re-Goddless of where their Licensed Jealousy's [Accredited or not] cometh from!

HALLUYA! Praise the HOLYi-NO-MAN nor WOMB: Only "IT"!

I have learned a great deal from this thread. In many ways, it has been an excellent way for me to learn. The trials of some to practice their precious faith humble me and remind me not to take anything for granted.

I will not post again on this thread (so much to do!), but be sure of my absolute support for religious freedom for these folk and commitment to keep saying and doing what I can until they can be fully free.

John Mark

The just-posted nonsense by 'spaceship-earth', whom we have seen before under a different name, must be deleted, and this person removed from this group.

I anticipate his usual gutter insults.

"One must combat hatred, racism, etc., on all fronts as they raise their gorgon heads against us. What threatens one group, threatens all. Until we learn that, we are defenseless."

And I can say yes, Yes, YES. We must speak out. But we MUST cooperate, organize.

Would anyone really trust the feds to give protection here? Can the feds even do this legally? I do not know.

I seem to remember that you are in education. Do you not think this is another primary weapon against this madness? Not a silver bullet, ain't no such thing, and it is certainly long term, really for generations.

Metal detectors in houses of worship makes me sick. What a terrible sign of the madness that stalks our country.

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More....

"Better to take the risk chosen by the Judeo-Christian West and allow for armed families, citizens, and social groups, than to bring on the certain abuse of power of a tyrannical state that has a monopoly on lethal force."

At the present time, our fed gummint shows no signs of abusing their power, as opposed to the last administration. That could change, of course, but I do not see that under the current administration. I don't think that you do either.

But exactly how would an armed citizenry help this situation? Do we think we could ever defend ourselves against tanks and rangers? No. That answer lies elsewhere. But, yes, it would probably help against the random madmen. (Why are they always male, anyway?)

Double the number of household weapons, and you risk doubling the death rate by firearms from 20,000/year to 40,000/year. Mostly suicides, accidents(think children), and household murders.

Both of us have seen tyrannical states firsthand. You saw it for a long time, and really suffered. I saw it for one day only, in East Berlin in 1970, and took no hurt. But I learned there to hate this terrible repression of all that is human.

I think that a start to a solution would be to somehow learn to communicate, and try to seek a common goal or three.

Silly me, such an idealist.....

I do not disagree, but just how are these resources going to be used? Armed security outside houses of worship? A good argument has been made here, by you (I think, correct me if I am wrong) and others, that this may be necessary sometimes. But not inside. I hate this, but it just might be needed.
And how is the underlying problem of the growing hostility, the armed racists, the haters, the potential killers, going to be dealt with? And I am really saying, how do we not just stop this, but how can we try to cure it? Is this even answerable, or must we continue with aspirin and band-aids?
--------------------
Security agencies have an array of strategies for apprehending terrorists, and they have used them successfully. The problem needs to be addressed at the federal level, to which it should have been brought four decades ago.

We do not have to tell US security agencies how to conduct their business. We pay taxes for them to learn how to do that.

At present, there are metal detectors in synagogues. Congregations, as I mentioned, are forced to be under siege by police during holy days. Some communities are patroled 24/7 both by police and privately paid security patrols, some just by the latter.

WE cannot afford private security, and we do not want it any more than we want police besieging us. We want the problem given the attention it deserves by the United States federal government.

To repeat from my previous post, "Other things can be done. Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists, et al, can speak out publicly. OnFaith should address the issue honestly, rather than bury it by posing disingenuous questions."

This would be informative and educational.
NO ONE, no American, no one anywhere, should be subject for decades to terrorist threats. Facing the problem and dealing with it is long, long overdue.

One must combat hatred, racism, etc., on all fronts as they raise their gorgon heads against us. What threatens one group, threatens all. Until we learn that, we are defenseless.

"The US government has a well-staffed, though not perfect, security apparatus. It's [sic] resources should have been brought to bear on this problem when it began four decades ago."

I do not disagree, but just how are these resources going to be used? Armed security outside houses of worship? A good argument has been made here, by you (I think, correct me if I am wrong) and others, that this may be necessary sometimes. But not inside. I hate this, but it just might be needed.

And how is the underlying problem of the growing hostility, the armed racists, the haters, the potential killers, going to be dealt with? And I am really saying, how do we not just stop this, but how can we try to cure it? Is this even answerable, or must we continue with aspirin and band-aids?

"Of course, obvious. What is not apparent is just how to do this, and how to follow up so that it does not happen again. Anybody here got any ideas on that? I don't."

The US government has a well-staffed, though not perfect, security apparatus. It's resources should have been brought to bear on this problem when it began four decades ago. Since then, US security agencies have grown exponentially. They are in a far better position to act than ever before.

Other things can be done. Muslims, Jews, Christians, atheists, et al, can speak out publicly. OnFaith should address the issue honestly, rather than bury it by posing disingenuous questions.

By the way, most educated Christians well know that no rabbi would ever bring a weapon into a synagogue. No one may even carry money into a synagogue. That the rabbis' announcement was rhetoric, an attempt to bring attention to this nightmare, should have been obvious, had to be obvious to the OnFaith powers that be, who, as newspaper readers, know the rabbis' rhetoric has been continuous for the last few years.

The threat to one segment of America's population must be faced honestly, head on, in the interest of those principles Americans profess to cherish.

"What must be done is obvious. The problem must be given the priority it should have been given when it began forty years ago. Those racist Islamist lunatics threatening one segment of the population must be apprehended and tried in a court of law."

Of course, obvious. What is not apparent is just how to do this, and how to follow up so that it does not happen again. Anybody here got any ideas on that? I don't.

"It does beg the question, though, as to what must be done. Therein lies the problem, and the devil is truly in the details."

What must be done is obvious. The problem must be given the priority it should have been given when it began forty years ago. Those racist Islamist lunatics threatening one segment of the population must be apprehended and tried in a court of law.

John Mark,

I am indebted to you for your replies. I have saved them, pasted them onto other threads, where, hopefully, they will do some good, and emailed them to the frustrated rabbi of the synagogue I occasionally attend.

As I mentioned in an earlier post on this thread, on behalf of her congregation, the rabbi had declined police protection this year. (No one wants to attend services under siege by police.) However, she was persuaded by the police, after three meetings, to relent.

She emailed all, none of whom were happy, expressing her frustration. I think she will be pleased to know that there is someone out there who understands the injustice we have faced for four decades and who is concerned.

Farnaz

John Mark, you said,

"The fact that people cannot worship in safety in this nation makes me sick.

I hope we can all agree that the REAL scandal, whatever our views of the actions of these particular rabbis, is the ineffective response of the state to the peril of good men and women.

Something should and must be done."

My take on that is that you spoke rightly and compassionately.

It does beg the question, though, as to what must be done. Therein lies the problem, and the devil is truly in the details.

Thanks for replying here - I respect that.

justillthen

Jesus did say, "Give to God what is God's and to Caesar what is Caesar's.

Whether we like it or not we live in a world that, to say the least, is not perfect.

It is not my place, your place or any other human being's place to judge others.

Jesus spoke very well of the "centurion" and this "centurion" was not only in the military but was also, it would seem, an officer.

As anyone knows or should know, being in the military can sometimes involve the taking of life, Jesus did not comment one way or the other about the "centurion's" job but nevertheless, Jesus spoke very highly of the "centurion".

God gave us free will and God also gave us the power to reason and God also gave us the power of government, as in "Give to Caesar what is Caesr's", how we use that power, we will be judged on.

God sometimes executes His Justice in the here and now thru people.

Ultimately, it is about the seventh day arriving but God knows how inhumane we can be and God is at work now thru people also.

God has different work for different people, God is the One with The Plan and God's Plan is for ALL.

It says, "My Ways are not your ways and My Thoughts are not your thoughts", one should "follow God" how one believes God is leading one, your path is different from my path and my path is different from yours and our paths are different from other people's, Jesus did not say, 'here is the path, follow it', Jesus's invitation was to "Come follow Me".

In other words, how one follows God is not necessarily how God wants someone else to follow Him.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Farnaz Mansouri:

The fact that people cannot worship in safety in this nation makes me sick.

I hope we can all agree that the REAL scandal, whatever our views of the actions of these particular rabbis, is the ineffective response of the state to the peril of good men and women.

Something should and must be done.

John Mark

Let me be clear as I can be:

1. Most of us in America are very, very safe . . . lucky to be here . . . and served by effective and honest law enforcement. We have little need to be armed to the extent I discuss and it would be unreasonable for us to get too heated up.

2. Sadly some communities are not so served . . . and folk in them are terrorized by gangs or threats of terrorism. Some of my friends who live in these areas have to take self-defense more seriously than I have to do. They live in areas with shocking murder rates fifteen minutes from safe communities.

This should not be tolerated but has gone on for years. Why should this be? Should they allow innocents to die while they wait for "help" that keeps on not coming?

Certain groups in American culture have strong historic reasons to think that state power will not always be on their side. This grounds a reasonable suspicion of the police power of the state in some parts (to give but one example) of the African-American community.

3. Jewish persons in particular in NY are the subject of real and violent threats against their safety.

So while most Americans should not be paranoid and have no reasonable need to think very, very strongly about self-defense some communities have such reasons.

It is an American tradition (following English traditions we inherited) that such groups are not being "evil" when they defend themselves or consider doing so.

Christians agree with this right (it was shaped by the reflections of mostly Christian philosophers from Augustine to Locke) . . . though certainly one does not have to be a Christian to exercise it, agree with it, or deserve it.

It is the heritage of all, because all human beings are created in the image of God.

In particular ignoring the horrible pressure on some parts of the NY Jewish community is wrong. Putting it down to right wing paranoia is wrong. I am not personally in the communities that reasonably have such fears, but that does not mean I can remain silent when fellow citizens are badly served.

The sufferings of these folk matter to all good men and women.

It is not o.k. that some of our fellow citizens live in fear . . not fear whipped up by talk radio or cable television, but fear based on real threats and real violence. In fact, most people ignore the plight of these "other" communities so the murder rate in parts of LA continues sky-high and good men and women must pass through metal detectors when they go to worship.

That is the problem.

This is a crying shame . . . and a blight on our republic. These threats and the fact that good people, good Americans, have to live in fear are the real scandal and issue.

Some "armed" rabbis trying to make a point are not the danger to a Republic founded (after all) by men of action like Washington. The base foes of an open society that drive good men to arms are the real issue.

Hello ThomasBaum,

My position is really simple and straightforward on this. If one is a disciple of Jesus, and follows that path purely, one cannot kill. More particularly, one is compelled, by choice and in joy, to Love at every moment, to Forgive all insults, and to spread Peace in the world.

To make choices or take actions that follow the opposite course is to diverge from the fundamentals of pure Christianity, and from Jesus and the path that He offered.

Disciples of a Way follow that Way. Or they do not. Or they fall off and get back on the Path. But when they are off the Path they cannot honestly call themselves disciples of that Path, as their actions are counter to it.

I am sure that many soldiers and police officers call themselves Christians, and they may define themselves as they will. Hey, look at the preponderance of Evangelicals and their influence in the military and in military academies. But to me it is a aberration of Christianity, and an aspect of it's devolution, the commonly held belief that one can be a true Christian and a supporter of war and death. Often do in the name of God...

John Mark,

You write:

I appreciate the comments and I should not the question (linking the pastor and the rabbis) came from the Wa-Po and not me.

The situations are (of course) very, very dissimilar. The threats facing Jewish people in NYC are real, wicked, and it is a scandal to our nation that they continue.

1. I don't think 2nd Amendment Sunday (with guns in church) a great idea, but not the worst idea I have ever heard from a pastor. Guns in many parts of the country are tools and culturally a part of the landscape for generations. I will inherit a gun from my Dad that has been (well cared for and) in my family for generations.

2. The real threat to Jewish people in NYC is horrible and I support any reasonable action taken by that community in its own defense . . . and wish the bigger community of New York (and the US) would offer greater support.
--------------------------------
John Mark,

I understood your position from your essay, but I do want to thank you very much for your reply. The rabbis' threats were, of course, rhetoric, as I mention in my comment. They and the Kentucky pastor, we agree, have nothing in common. However, OnFaith chose to put them together, rather than deal with the problem of the racist lunatic Islamist threats that New York Jews have had to deal with for four decades.

The rabbis, like others, have been trying to call attention to the failure of law enforcement to deal with this problem. FOUR DECADES of threats by racist Islamist lunatics have led to metal detectors in synagogues, communities hiring security guards, and rabbis being persuaded to accept police protection for their synagogues even when their congregations don't want it.

This, not the rabbis' protest, is the issue.
Why are we forced to go to services under siege by police? Why are these racist lunatics not caught and tried?

Again, I am grateful to you for your support, would appreciate anything you can do to call attention to our plight. We are, last time I looked, Americans, and we do pay taxes.

Farnaz Mansouri

justillthen

You wrote, "If one calls himself a Christian, one cannot be a killer, for any reason."

Does your definition of "killer" mean anyone that kills another human being?

If it does, does that mean that any police officer that "kills" someone in the line of duty cannot be a "Christian"?

Does this also mean that all of those in whatever war that has ever been that has "killed" can not be a "Christian"?

Does this also mean that anyone involved in vehicular homicide and was the driver can not be a "Christian"?

If one actually listens to what Jesus said, one does not have to actually physically take a life to have killed, is that not correct?

Remember what the "religious" of Jesus's day asked, "Why does He hang around with "sinners"?

Well, I'm a sinner and that is one of the steps I would think in being a "Christian", acknowledging this fact.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I agree ONE-HUNDRED-PERCENT with Justtillthen.

I have never been afraid in a church. But if I knew the people in the church all had guns, and possibly the Pastor too, I probably would not go anymore. I would ba afraid to say anything, for fear that one of them might shoot me.

That is how it works, isn't it? When someone is shot and killed in America, it is usually a husband or wife, other close relative, friend, or loved one who did it, in a fit of anger, and mistaken, misplaced hostility.

This whole line of thought is just some kind of weird, paranoid hysteria. What world does John Mark Reynolds live in? Too much cable-television, I suspect.

How does your wife, your mother-in-law, your brother, his wife, your best friend, you neighbor, and the guy sitting in the pew next to you at church, all carrying a gun, make you feel safer?

It would not make me feel safer; the thought of it creeps me out. There is something crazy about this situation, and I don't think it's me.

Sure I'm gonna take my gun to church. What if Mesicans show up?

Hello Karl_in_Phoenix,

If one lives with the world view that one is in imminent danger of assault by an "Active Shooter", or any other such invasion, one will find reasons to believe that rubbish. Then one will create it.

Spree shootings are extremely rare here, regardless or the media propaganda that you may want to swallow whole from the mouth of the Fox. Unbelievably rare. Millions and millions go to church every week and have no more violence than a slip and fall... There is not a mass murderer around the next corner.

However, if this lie and the attached fear that it induces is fed and nurtured and re-iterated like a mantra, so that you have even 5% of the people carrying, then you can be sure that you, by your actions and those of like mind, will be increasing violence in the very society that you say you want to protect. Then, it is far more likely that you WILL find that mass murderer around the next corner.

Here, you could almost bet that he will call himself a Christian.

They are the ones arming up, after all, Karl_in_Phoenix.

I wish I had more time to post in response to this essay, but do not right now. Yet I am a bit amazed by it.

This seems to be an endorsement of sorts for the Second Amendment, and that as justification for churches and synagogues self arming, coupled with the repetition like a mantra that the state cannot protect the people. Thrown in is some strange upliftment of fundamental Christian tenets of peace and pacifism while a justifying of when a Christian needs not live by his own foundational principles and may dive headlong into violent confrontation.

What? What kind of weird double message is going on here?

One, Mr. Reynolds and anyone else arguing in support of the pastors and rabbis to carry weapons to church, (and encourage the assembly to do so as well!), need not make it a Second Amendment issue. Though a thorny Amendment, it is a great one and arguably essential to a free democracy.

The repetition of the allusion the the ineffectiveness of the state to protect it's citizens is well out of line. Considering all, the state does a fabulous job protecting it's citizens, (particularly in a society that lets any and ALL carry weapons). This aspect of John Marks essay is disturbing, for it fosters the 'fringe' view that one is on his own to defend himself, and that the state is not to be trusted, indeed is 'outside of the family'. That philosophy multiplied and carried forth creates societal turmoil and trauma, and leads to anarchy in the end.

Further it is false. This state, federal and state level, is and continues to be a force on the side of good and right, protecting of citizens individual and collective. It is a bit insulting that the actions of the state are so downgraded in this article. It does not serve the betterment or healing of the collective, or it's greater good, but serves to give support to it's own kind.

Yet how so, I wonder, does the Christian cause, indeed the Cause of Love and Forgiveness, the Creative Way, get served when in one hand we hold aloft the Light that Jesus shined forth onto that Path of Peace, and in the other had offer a Sig Sauer and the permit for it's use. This is what Mr. Reynolds appears to do here. It is some starry ideals of what we are as Christians, and then the reason that we can detour around those fundamental pillars.

It is clear to me that many Christians live outside of Christs' example, daily and throughout life, while claiming to be His disciples. It is easy enough when one can choose as one wills whether to live with Jesus or digress into the Old Testament. It is the loophole, the convenient pressure relief valve that allows the baser nature to rule. It is easier to hate, and to kill, and to distrust, than to Love Only.

A shame, and a sham.

So I am clear, I am not against gun ownership or the use of guns in defense of life. It is a power that is weighty, and should not be taken or used lightly, and I am not a proponent of citizens carrying weapons in public. We have had the Wild West, and the Wild East, and history chock full of examples of people using weaponry for personal gain and other evils. Further, this society and the world at large is in enough agitation that armed citizens are more likely to cause harm and destruction than protection of life. It is a bad mix.

One thing that is clear, however, is that Jesus did not carry a gun and would not have if one were available to Him, and certainly WOULD NOT USE IT!

If one calls himself a Christian, one cannot be a killer, for any reason. In doing so one so degrades the Teaching of the Master as to make it a mockery, and that hypocracy radiates out in his life.

An Active Shooter (a spree murderer) is usually "finished" with his murder spree in two-to-three MINUTES. Active Shooters favor "UNARMED VICTIM ZONES". Think about it.

Police response in less than three minutes from the beginning of an "incident" is nearly impossible.

When the "bad thing" happens, those involved will be on their own to solve the problem, to live or die. That is the reality of dealing with an Active Shooter.

If more "good citizens" were armed (and trained), there would be fewer victims of criminal assaults. Ultimately, we are responsible for our personal protection, the government cannot be with us every moment and I do not want them with me every moment.

There is nothing wrong with guns in the hands of these Rabis who are trained in the use of these tools of protection.

Edit (again pardon what this box does to my eyes!) This first line: "I appreciate the comments and I should not the question (linking the pastor and the rabbis) came from the Wa-Po and not me."

Should read: I appreciate the comments and I should note the question (linking the pastor and the rabbis) came from the Wa-Po and not me.

I appreciate the comments and I should not the question (linking the pastor and the rabbis) came from the Wa-Po and not me.

The situations are (of course) very, very dissimilar. The threats facing Jewish people in NYC are real, wicked, and it is a scandal to our nation that they continue.

1. I don't think 2nd Amendment Sunday (with guns in church) a great idea, but not the worst idea I have ever heard from a pastor. Guns in many parts of the country are tools and culturally a part of the landscape for generations. I will inherit a gun from my Dad that has been (well cared for and) in my family for generations.

2. The real threat to Jewish people in NYC is horrible and I support any reasonable action taken by that community in its own defense . . . and wish the bigger community of New York (and the US) would offer greater support.

OUTSTANDING commentary, Mr. Reynolds. Thank you for bringing some sense to what seemed to be a PC echo-chamber.

John Mark,

You write: "It is a sad day when civil government cannot provide the protection and justice that should be given to men and women, but sad days do occur this side of paradise."

Putting the Kentucky pastor and the rabbis in the same category is akin to uniting the Janjaweed with the National Guard. After all both are armed.

The problem of Muslim terrorist threats against synagogues, Jews in predominantly Jewish neighborhoods has been going on in New York City for decades. Frankly, people are sick, tired, and disgusted with being targeted.

A few years ago, some people, including rabbis began stating that they intended to defend themselves, and not only during the High Holy Days. They do not want their congregations to be burdened all year with the cost of paying for private security and they don't want to be under siege by police.

The synagogue I occasionally attend declined police protection this year. This resulted in a meeting with the chief, followed by two more, in which she and her committee were finally persuaded to give in.

The Congregation, a gentle enough bunch, was not happy from what I hear. Enough is enough as this brilliant young rabbi declared in her email. Jews, like everyone else, have enough problems living day to day without being threatened by Muslim terrorists. However, the rabbis arming themselves is not the right way, as they very well know since the announcement was rhetoric.

We Jews, cultural and observant, need to organize, as taxpayers. We need to stage demonstrations demanding that those who threaten us be caught, tried, and jailed, if convicted. As this discussion continues within the community, I am hopeful that this will occur.

We Jews do not need rabbis speaking out in this way. We need them to unite us. When we finally get it together, a few million of us might celebrate the High Holy days in front of City Hall. 2010 would be a good year for us to begin a new tradition in New York.

(I meant to say: What alot OF words...)

words, words, words...

What alot words...

But what do they all mean?

I could not really say.