Don't Try to 'Perfume' War With Religious Claims

hi

As far as I know it's only Muslims who scream out "God is great" ("Allahu Akbar") just before they kill someone.

Simple as that.

Brad,

you forget that it was the US who furnished the poison Saddam used, plus huge quantities of weapons against Iran. The US had known that he used it against the Kurds and the Shiites. The famous cowtow of Rumsfeld before the "Emperor" Saddam in 1983 (under Reagan) is also not forgotten. But then, Saddam was OUR scoundrel. When he maintained that he had no WMD, he told the truth, as compared to Bush.

The crimes for which Saddam was hanged he committed BEFORE that Rumsfeld cowtow.

The axis of evil has its hub in the White House.

I would say the religious war is an Islamic one. Not Christian. Wrong target methinks.
Barmy Bush may go on about 'God', but it's laughable to say the U.S. Army was on God's work!
Whereas the Islamist forces go on about nothing else.

And the problems in Iraq are all home grown. Whatever you think of the war itself, the fact is a mass murdering dictator (with much Muslim blood on his hands) was ousted.
Thus taken off Saddam's leash the Islamist went back to what they always go back to...dark-ages violence.
Iraq is simply 1000 year old sectarian violence that The West did not start.
The fact is it is not British/American soldiers blowing up Muslims in market places, blowing up Muslims in mosques, blowing up Mulsim pilgrims.
IT'S MUSLIMS.

Quite frankly let them get on with it.
Let the Sunni's and the Shiites with their lousy Suadi and Iranian chums wipe each other out.
The West can then concentrate on the urgent, homegrown Islamist terror threat it stupidly fostered for so many politically correct years.

Anonymous,

You said:

"Oh, ho ho ho. How thoroughly delighted with himself this airheaded jokester is. How superior he his.

It speaks volumes that he has to concoct such bogeymen entirely out of thin air and his own petty hatreds, and for no other reason than to indulge in yet more self-congratulation. One sick puppy."
------------

You must be unaware of the millions of Americans who literally believe that J.C. will return to drench the earth in human blood in their lifetimes. Visit the Rapture Ready forums at http://www.rr-bb.com/ for a glimpse of exactly the sort of person Mr. Spong is referring to. Many of these people support any and every war in the Middle East, which they interpret as signs of the end times they desperately want to come. The bloodier the war, the better.

Of course, these same people support any measure necessary (domestic surveillance, whatever) to stop terrorism in the US. Apparently the end times aren't so fun if stuff is blowing up in your backyard.

Brad,

Well yes, Syria and Iran oppose what we do. Of course, one didn't need to be a rocket scientist to anticipate that from the start. Look at a map and you see it is pretty much impossible to stop especially using Rumsfeld-Cheney tactics of limited ground troops. From the perspective of pure "realpolitik", Iranian hard-liners are the main beneficiaries of their stupidity (as was predicted from the start by many of us who opposed this unnecessary war). Way to go, Bush administration! Your incompetence comes close to treason. (I use that term because neo-cons and their ilk are always throwing it in the direction of liberals -- and now in the direction of the ~70% of peoople who see how crazy this thing has become).

One other thing, though. A substantial portion of the arms and explosives used in Iraq originate in (1) caches of weapons and explosives that were not secured by US troops after the Iraqi army dissolved into the woodwork, and (2) arms we continue to give to the Iraqi police and army, which are completely infiltrated. Anyone who thinks they are going to "stand up" on their own hasn't been watching.

Here, here! Now we're making sense. How quickly "belief" takes second place to reason when we are confronted with injustice.

Totally agree with the good Bishop.

Brad:
One of the main reasons to go to war reluctantly is the fact that they are so godawful hard to stop. What you point out is the fact that more often than not they esculate, get larger and clearly have the potential to become global. Newt Grigrich says we're in WW3 right now. I don't know if God told him that or he's just guessing but it does look like he's correct when you throw Iran and Syria into the stew.

Maybe we should look for some good alies? How about the old reliable ones, Russia and China? They don't seem to have problems caused by faith. Could no faith be the winning formula or is it better to die in the name of one's God?

There seems to be an unwarranted paranoia about nukes. Both Russia and China have them and we don't lose sleep over that. Why so worried about Iran having the bomb? Does God alone know?

Philo: 500 billion is chicken feed. We're sending twice that amount, a trillion to the Vatican over a slightly longer period of time. Same thing, tax free, tax deductible from tax exempt places of businesses. Doesn't it make you feel good that your taxes support faith? Why, just cause?

Iraq was a mistake, but Iraq wouldn't be such a mess if Iran and Syria hadn't directly supplied the insurgents/terrorists with a safe haven, from which to deploy into Irag, weapons, supplies, bombs, training, etc. Those to Islamic republics have done everything they can to make Iraq what it is now. If anyone should be prosecuted for war crimes it should be those radical nutheads in the Iranian and Syrian governments.

The war is unjust, fine.

But what is to be done about the hideous mess that is Iraq today?

Pull out the troops and its full scale civil war with regional players sticking their noses in all the way. That doesn't sound very appealing does it?

Leave the troops there, increase the head count, and then what? Is there a coherent and well constructed plan with checkpoints to show whether progress is being made in stabilizing Iraq?

Should partitioning Iraq be considered? How would it be done? Has the U.S. begun researching this option to determine feasibility, and risk? Has the problem of Iraq even been well defined and analyzed?

There are a lot of questions to ask, and all the stakeholders need to be brought to the table. That includes Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey, and Syria, the U.S. and Britain.

What a hideous mess. Net result to date: $500 Billion down the toidy, 3,000+ dead American soldiers, 100,000's of dead Iraqi's, regional instability, and a failed state (Iraq).

Willem, have you heard the expression, "the road to hell is paved with good intentions" yet? Money grubbing is what some do while others dedicate their lives to leading the multitudes to hell, for just cause, ah, cause they need to see a mental health professional?

The cure for insanity is to realize one is insane, impossible else one would not be insane to begin with. Does it do any good to tell the insane they are insane? We try.

Atheists refuse to believe there is a God because they don't believe something that doesn't exist does exist. Are we there yet?

One of the nicer benefits of being insane is one can justify "just causes."

Have you noticed that all of the Christian panelists and posters accept that some wars are justified? Did Jesus the Christ say that? Whatever happened to "Turn the other cheek?"

If these "Christians" really believed in Christian doctrine they would oppose all wars including "defensive" wars.

And if they really believed in life after death and the Christian Heaven, they'd advise others and themselves that it's better to simply accept death in war than to advocate or participate in a defensive or other war.

The inescapable conclusion is that these "Christian" panelists and posters don't really hold Christian beliefs, particularly concerning the hereafter.

well said ex-bishop!!! now say 10 times 'RELIGION IS THE PROBLEM AND NOT THE ANSWER"
all this jesus/god stuff is just hokus-pokus ,we know that she doesnt exist! its a scam brought to us by homophobic money grabbing ministers and priest.

War other than for defense is imorral, what the US & Britan was without doubt imorral, but let's no drag religon into it and start quoting GOD through the bible. After all as I know it GOD didn't write the Bible man did and choose what HE wanted in it and disregarded what HE didn't want in it!

War should only be fought in self defense not preemptively. Also all political leaders should be required to have thier children on active duty in the military during thier tenor in office to make sure when war is called for itis out of neccessity not arogance!!

If the Arab-Isreali issue was handled in a seriously honest manor instead of giving Isreal whatever it wants almost all of the middleeast issues would be resolved.

Think about what us Americans would do if some other country came to the USA and raided, stole, and split it into tiny fragmented pieces like was done to Palistine. I think us Americans would be loading up our shotguns and making homemade bombs, I guess we would then be considered terrorist & extremists. I assume then that the rest of the world would have to wage a war on terrorism against us.

Would you like ice cream with your cake, BA'AL. What! No cake. Me neither. There we go agreeing again.

I am glad that somebody finally pointed out that some of the advocates of this war are truly insane. Well written, Mr. Spong.

Stan, Pat Robertson has "an organization and a headquarters to sustain such [D]evil for some organizational self serving purpose" or not? How about Saint George? There's lots and lots of self serving organizations. Bishops usually have them all by self. It's the QUALITY of that which is served that makes the difference.

If one takes an aging but not too old a cow pile, trims it into the shape of a cake and then frosts and decorates it, what is it? Did you get your delicious slice, recently?

Quote from John Shelby Spong, fourth paragraph: "War is a barbaric and primitive way to settle human differences. No Christians should try to perfume this horror with either pious phrases or absurd religious claims. Religious voices, for example, that support this war on the basis of some obscure prediction from the first century in the book of Revelation are frankly in need of psychiatric intervention and should be treated at once. No one, however, should build national policy on this expression of mental illness."

But this stuff doesn't just happen because people are dumb. You clearly know the truth here but someone needs to devine out the organization and its headquarters that is behind all this.

Hillary said it takes a village to raise a child; well, it takes an organization and a headquarters to sustain such evil for some organizational self serving purpose.

Spong says, "Religious voices, for example, that support this war on the basis of some obscure prediction from the first century in the book of Revelation are frankly in need of psychiatric intervention and should be treated at once. No one, however, should build national policy on this expression of mental illness."

Oh, ho ho ho. How thoroughly delighted with himself this airheaded jokester is. How superior he his.

It speaks volumes that he has to concoct such bogeymen entirely out of thin air and his own petty hatreds, and for no other reason than to indulge in yet more self-congratulation. One sick puppy.

BISHOP SPONG-
You have shot the arrow of truth to the mark-
you cal it like you see it and such straightforward conscience driven speech is welcome and a balm-

ps i did a serch on answer.com to find out how one addresses an ex bishop- and the second link contained your name- just a search for bishop!
i thought that was pretty swell- it was an article by ned edwards called knowing god in the second person- and was an edifying surprise
peace

BISHOP SPONG- WOW- you are living proof that a person finds what they seek- if your intentions are good- and you seek truth for instance- you will find it.

I respect your fearlessness in your response- no punches pulled.

as a funny aside- ididnt know how to address an ex bishop so i went to answers.com and asked what title is used to address an ex-episcopalian bishop
and the second link had your name contained in it - so i read it- a piece by ned edward 'knowing god i the second person' just a funny coincidence

BISHOP SPONG- WOW- you are living proof that a person finds what they seek- if your intentions are good- and you seek truth for instance- you will find it.

I respect your fearlessness in your response- no punches pulled.

as a funny aside- ididnt know how to address an ex bishop so i went to answers.com and asked what title is used to address an ex-episcopalian bishop
and the second link had your name contained in it - so i read it- a piece by ned edward 'knowing god i the second person' just a funny coincidence