Jesus for the Non-Religious

Just finished reading "Jesus for the Non-Religious" and am delighted that someone challanges the outdated worldview of demons and lex talonis, trying to separate them from Jesus, despite of what results Lebens-Jesu research never managed to bring to life. The linking of the evangelical texts with Jewish rites and the synagogical practice and usage of texts is important. Maybe Jesus would make a good bodhisattva?

Of the topics I'd hope Mr. Spong would also raise is the general concern of how the Bible should be used by laypeople, how to didactically teach about Jesus and at the same time steer clear of all the cosmetics. The historical evolution of the Canaaite god(s) El/Jahve/Sebaoth may also play a part. Also there seems to be sides of the Jesus-character I'd like to have more information about, like sayings pertaining to the Mosaic Law not being changed. Is he consistent about transcending the Mosaic Law? Marcionite or antithetical theological implications? Does Jesus change his opinion regarding the Gentiles throughout his last year? Does he move from being centered on raising the world by way of the Jews to encountering the Gentiles as persons later on? I am thining of the story of the Gentile woman with a sick child who is first rejected, then helped. What refects Jesus' ideas and what reflects the gospel-writers' own ideas? I hope Mr. Spong or others will continue along these lines.

I have been checking some of the sites attempting to refute Mr. Spong and must say I am appaled by the sheer bile and anger of some of them. I am a Norwegian and must therefore admit that the U.S. sounds to me much more extreme and less civil in these debates than I'm used to. No matter wether they are right or not, the use of slander or cries of heresy are clearly uncalled for.

Safe it is to say that Mr.Spongs view of God appeals to a more realistic and philosophical view of God. Often this is what mystics end up with after years of prayer and meditation, a realistic view of God more in line with Buber, Tillich and Løgstrup ethics than Hildegard von Bingen. Relgion has the capacity to be more realsitic and down to earth than people would like to think.

For me the final implication is that Jesus and Chritianity is far more complex and exotic than one would think at first. Believing that things are utterly fixed through faith uderscores the sheer magnitude of history and violate the dynamics of faith itself. Some humility may be a good investment, even by those opposing Mr.Spong.

WOW! These people that comment are so called Christians??? Mr Spong are you surprised at these comments, some so foul and hateful?

How he can stand up in church and lead a service with all his thoughts and demolition of so much of the Bible amazes me. I often visualise how the congregation must enter his church looking for hope, guidance and firmer believe in a God to follow, love and worship - and on leaving the building what inspiration and deeper understanding of a forgiving Saviour with whom they can have a communion of spirit and soul they have found? Of the recently bereaved, suicidal and desperately lonely can have gained to help and encourage them to continue living a day at a time with a hope and light they can follow, I fail to see how this can be. Does he have to deny his own beliefs to give a more traditional service with prayers of adoration and help for those in need?

How he can stand up in church and lead a service with all his thoughts and demolition of so much of the Bible amazes me. I often visualise how the congregation must enter his church looking for hope, guidance and firmer believe in a God to follow, love and worship - and on leaving the building what inspiration and deeper understanding of a forgiving Saviour with whom they can have a communion of spirit and soul they have found? Of the recently bereaved, suicidal and desperately lonely can have gained to help and encourage them to continue living a day at a time with a hope and light they can follow, I fail to see how this can be. Does he have to deny his own beliefs to give a more traditional service with prayers of adoration and help for those in need?

John Shelby Spong is a heretic who should have left the Christian faith and the Episcopal Church a LONG TIME AGO. Why stay within the confines of an institution that he so denigrates? Go roost with the pagans and the other heretics of the world.

TO PATTI ROBERTS:

You wrote, "I personally am for him and believe EVERY word that He breathed into His Word".

Remember when Jesus was on the cross and said, "Father forgive them, they know not what they do".

Do you believe the above sentence?

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

So basically what you are saying in your post is that you are a non-believer...therefore you choose to be eternally separated from God...because you can't believe parts of His word...and not others.
The Bible is absolute truth...and if in it God says that Jesus was born of a virgin...then it is so...and the Bible clearly states that Jesus died..and rose on the third day,and walked among His people. And after 40 days ascended into heaven to sit at the right hand of God. We don't pick and choose what we want to out of the Bible...you are either for Him or against Him...I personally am for him and believe EVERY word that He breathed into His Word.I pray that God will reveal Himself to you in a mighty way...so you will stop spreading these lies ..trying to confuse nonbelievers..or weaker Christians.
Sincerely,
A true believer

I guess all those Christians that went to their deaths during the Roman persecutions, died for a lie.

I'd like to be a fly on the wall when the good (alleged) bishop meets our creator.

"The Truth is absolute."
--Pope Benedict XVI

TO JOHN SHELBY SPONG:

Concerning your post, WHAT A CROCK.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

FOr some reason, I can't post on this thread, though I can on others -- and I'm not using any bad words!

I'm trying to communicate Jack, but the what I want to say, won't come up here. Let's see if this does

Hey ChurchStateWall,

Thanks for your response to my post:

"And you're a worthless, loathsome, son of a you know what, you god damn Pharisee.

You couldn't follow Jesus if he chained you to the back fo a pickup."

Oh C'mon, ChurchStateWall guy, tell me how you REALLY feel.

Listen, friend. Switch to decaf. You're gonna blow out a blood vessel or something.

Obviously I do not care for Bp. Spong's philosophical musings. Perhaps you are his biggest fan.

I say his views are the same old stuff I've heard from him for years because I'm very familiar with his non-Christian point of view. He made a career of trashing Christianity while a Bishop in the Episcopal Church. He rejected everything the church is based upon but never stopped taking the pay checks.

If he truly had the courage of his convictions he would have hung up the mitre and quit the church long ago. But guess what - he got a hell of a lot more press by being Episcopal Bishop Jack Spong trashing Christianity than being plain old Jack Spong doing so.

He traded on his position in the church while doing everything he could to destroy it - and that included doing a lousy job of running his diocese in New Jersey. It was probably far more interesting and enjoyable playing the part of the daring and controversial bishop.

While I was listening to him plug his latest book it became clear that he not only doesn't believe in the Jesus of Christianity (of course), but it seems he doesn't really believe in God, period. He seems to worships his intellect. Not the intellect in a universal sense, but his intellect, as in Jack Spong's. And at the end of the day that's all he is left with.

It's sad. He's made a career and a name for himself but he doesn't really have a whole lot to offer. He has something to say in rejecting Christianity, but he's said it a dozen times over in the books he's written. The title of his latest one pretty much sums it up. Every book he has written is for non-believers, or is an attempt to create them.

What he offers is basically...nothing.

"You must want to stop people from talking because you want to stop hearing what makes you frightened."

I said that because you want to stop people from speaking something they believe.

And you confirmed you are fearful by saying-

"When someone says you're going to hell, it usually sounds like a threat.."

If you don't believe in hell- how is that a threat? It like the bogeyman. It will only scare you- when you're young enough to think he's real.

Anyone who has faith in religion believes there is a consequent to actions and a hereafter. If that threatens and frightens you- why do you post on a "Faith" board? You can liberate yourself from fear by simply avoiding the faithful..

Grow up, efavorite..

Jack says, "You must want to stop people from talking because you want to stop hearing what makes you frightened."

You seem to know an awful lot about me Jack. How do you do that, with a stranger on the internet?

As for your friends' admonitions about food, those can be easily proven one way or the other.

Hell can't be proven - there's no sign of it, except in the Bible, of course.

Also, when people tell me what to eat, I have the distinct sense they're trying to help me. When someone says you're going to hell, it usually sounds like a threat and they come across about as loving and concerned as you just did in your post to me.

Are you a Christian, Jack?

efavorite-

"Yes - one group can stop telling the other group they they will burn in Hell for not holding the proper beliefs."

I live an active life and have lots of friends. I have had people tell me -not to fly planes, not to race cars, even not to eat raw oysters all because "it will kill me". I don't feel I need to silence them because I don't believe them. I understand -they are only expressing their (misplaced) concern for me. No harm done.

You must want to stop people from talking because you want to stop hearing what makes you frightened. If you are so fragile- don't associate with Christians. Anyone who believes you will go to hell at your death- will feel a burden to inform you.

ABTW-

"Great minds think alike"?

Weak minds are stuck in the same rut..

"Any thoughts on how these two groups can be encouraged to affirm each other?"

Yes - one group can stop telling the other group they they will burn in Hell for not holding the proper beliefs.

The people that John Shelby Spong is writing for find they can't reach faith in the underlying realities of Christianity if belief in the literal truth of the Bible is presented as a prequisite, although they can believe if that obstacle is removed. That is a terriffic service.

Others seem to find that they cannot believe the underlying realities if the Bible is not in some way literally true.

So we have two groups who both want to believe the same underlying things, but are polarised on the surface.

Any thoughts on how these two groups can be encouraged to affirm each other?

God bless the arrogant and prideful. God bless those with holes in themselves that they need to try to fill with their profound opinions and witty banter in this blog.
God bless all on the journey of faith.
A man may start his life with the simple faith of a peasant, may go to great lengths in all manner of study in an attempt to discern the mysteries of his faith, and then may return to the simple faith of a peasant.

If I had time, I could show you that Christianity is logical, that Jesus was God, that the Bible is true, the Pope infallible when teaching to the entire church on matters of faith and/or morals. But it wouldn't achieve anything, you would continue to rail at something you say doesn't exist. If we are all wrong, leave us to our opinions, and we will wither and die. If we are right............Think about it.

From a fifteen year old kid.

Who has been home schooled all his life, and is lovin' it!

To Susan from Culumbus:

You probably believe that protons, neutrons and quarks are dancing beyond your perception because you have seen films of atomic bombs exploding, right? You don´t believe scientists or documentary film makers lie, or conspire to, or suffer from collective blind spots that encyst delusions, right?

You also believe that your heart beats spontaneously for so many years because of sub atomic, atomic, molecular and physiological processes that are somehow associated to emotional and cognitive experiences and self understanding, to thought itself, and that´s pretty much the basis of all there is to it, right?

You perhaps also believe that even though the scientists you trust do not have answers for any of the ultimate questions, one day they will, right?

Perhaps you also believe you don´t govern your life by faith and that mysteries not ultimately scientifically explainable have any place in your life. Right?

Therefore, you believe the mysteries contemplated by Christians are pre-scientific, not outside science´s jursdiction, and thus fantasies.

A former Episcopal Bishop reduced in the freedom of retirement to undermining the faith of those whose church he served. This is not a condemnation - just an observation. Those who practice Christianity without expecting an eternal reward show a refreshing altruism.

A former Episcopal Bishop reduced in the freedom of retirement to undermining the faith of those whose church he served. This is not a condemnation - just an observation. Those who practice Christianity without expecting an eternal reward show a refreshing altruism.

Angela- "What's appalling is that you were a former bishop which by your own words, you were a false convert, you've made a god to suit yourself and your belief is no different that an unbeliever."

Am I to assume, then, that *you* have chosen your faith because it is UN-suitable to you?

Or are you in fact just like everyone else here, both pro and con, who has "chosen" the faith or non-faith that THEY find "suitable to them?"

If a prerequisite to a "true" faith is its unsuitability for you, may I suggest Al Qaeda.

Radical Islam is unsuitable. It's counterintuitive. It sounds just about as weong as it can me.

So, go for it.

http://churchstatewall.typepad.com/

To: John Shelby Spong,
So by your words, you were never a Christian and just because you don't believe Holy scripture doesn't make it untrue. What's appalling is that you were a former bishop which by your own words, you were a false convert, you've made a god to suit yourself and your belief is no different that an unbeliever. Just because you choose to believe in some false "Jesus" doesn't mean he wasn't born of a virgin, did not resurrect from the dead, did not descend to heaven and does not hold justice for the unrighteous in His Holy hand. I pray that you didn't teach this heresy in your church. I'll pray for for your salvation.

I am a former Christian who has lately, past few years, decided to take a closer look at the the "facts" presented to me from a standpoint of someone who has never heard it before.

After thinking about it this way, I realized that had I heard this salvation story before I was indoctrinated, I would never believe such things. They do not make sense whatsoever. Maybe Jesus just never spoke to me, but I now believe this is just fantasy.

Saying all of that, I don't judge those who still believe, it is comforting to believe that there is a God who cares about you no matter what. What I ask is that those who continue to believe although there is no evidence, allow me to live my life through a different lens without acting as though I am evil.

How ironic that Bishop Spong's "limitless Jesus" is so limited. While it is true that Jesus tells his followers repeatedly not to believe in him because of miracles, Christians have historically believed that something qualitatively different happened on Easter morning. If Jesus only "rose in the minds of his disciples" -- a notion borrowed from the theologian Rudolph Bultmann -- then nothing is substantively changed in the cosmos, and Bishop Spong should close up shop and tend his garden. There he might learn something about miracles and resurrection.

Bishop Spong's "revolutionary" ideas are quite old hat. And, his "Jesus for the Non-Religious" is nothing of the sort: it is a Jesus for one more aging baby boomer still rebelling against his parents' conventions. The non-religious folks I know are starving for transformation, and nothing Spong offers provides anything of the sort. In the words of St. Paul, he is "of all men most to be pitied."

PS – I wrote the following in “Word” before seeing Neal Obstat’s comment – Great minds think alike:

BillTetzeli – Considering that none of us were there to witness the facts of Jesus’ life and considering there is no historical or archeological evidence for them, why even consider them as facts?

Instead, think of the bible stories as myth, fable and legend, like King Arthur, Zeus, Aesop and Sherlock Holmes.

You weren’t there to witness those either, but you don’t think of them as facts and I bet you’d resist anyone who tried to get you to believe those stories – unless perhaps you were threatened with eternal damnation.

I have not read the book but I can see from this commentary that it will be a good one for a lot of us Christians who struggle to convince the youth of the computer age about resurrection of Jesus Christ and how to get to them to accept what we say to them

Bill Tetzelli,
And were you there when Odysseus contended with Poseidon? What, you don't believe in the Odysseus and Posidon myth? But you weren't there, so how can you deny the myth? Because from any literal (as opposed to literary) perspective, it's a fairy tale and therefore beyond belief. The same is true of the Resurrection and all the other miracles associated with Jesus. Oh, I know, I wasn't there. But I've never been to the dark side of the moon, either, but I'm pretty sure I can say there are no elves there.

This is the Jesus I believe in.

This is the Jesus I believe in.

I have to say I agree.

People take the metophors and symbolism in the Bible and run with it. The worship the symbols instead of researching, studying and meditating on what the symbols are supposed to represent. They rarely try to find out what about the symbolism can be used to improve their everyday life.

Jesus, who name was never Jesus at all (look it up), cam with prinicples for daily living. People tend to concentrate on his death, which in my opinion is futile. The real quest should be how he lived. Whther he was resurrected literraly or not, the real question should be, "CAN GOD RAISE YOU FROM THE DEAD". Not literally, becuase that is a very low level of understanding Yashuah (Jesus). But when you spriit is low, can God resurrect you? When you are low on cash, can you find the will and detrminationto keep striving? When the struggles of life make you feel like the walking dead, CAN GOD RAISE YOU?

There was no talking snake, as mentioned in Genesis. There was no flood that covered the entire earth.

Stop worhipping the symbol. Try to find the meaning of what the symbol represents and apply to your everyday life.

Ritual without righteousness and understanding is vain repetition.

In other words, Jesus was no more than another of the myriad prophets of one of the thousands of Gods dreamed up by primitive peoples to explain away the mysteries of the natural world. That we still believe today shows that humans are still stupid and primitive...the evidence is all aroud us! We are breeding ourselves out of existence and don't have the sense to stop, we kill each other for terrority, for status, for greed, and most of us still believe in some fantasy God who will rescue us from our follies. Hasn't happened, and won't. We are no more than slightly less dumb animals.

LOVEO & LOVEA is arrived. We are Here!

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~~~~~................]={|)...) HELLO WORLD!
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~~~~~ ]={}..) YA YA!
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Please visit :jo:zevz.us: OR

♦.J
♦♦..O
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♦♦♦♦♦♦.....Z.us OR

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THANK YE ALL!

Mr. Spong, one question. Were you there?

I wasn't either. Therefore I cannot rule out that the Gospel stories as related are true, not just in some amorphous, conforms to whatever we want them to metaphorical sense, but in the literal sense as well. People tend to explain away miracles, because miracles would tend to a miracle Maker. A Maker Who is real, immanent and transcendent at once, and who must in one way or another be related to. It's very uncomfortable. But our wishes do not change anything one way or another.

An example of this is in looking for the actual Mount Sinai, biblical scholars usually look for a mountain with a history of volcanic activity. Why? Because how else to explain the loud noises and bright lights coming from the top of the mountain as Moses talked with God - unless there was actually a God to talk to? No, it's just a metaphor, we can twist it so we're safe and God will just look like us and _we won't be judged, we won't be called to account_. By making God disappear into a meaningless metaphor, I am safe from damnation - and salvation. He - it - is explained away. That is how it has to be because that is how I wish it to be. The facts, which I was not there to witness in person, be damned.

John Shelby Spong,

I think you're confuse. What you're describing is Santa Claus and not Jesus. Make your own religion and don't try to twist the scriptures. If it's money that you are after, Santa has a lot of it. Be his friend and sell his gifts.

"In Christ there is neither Jew nor Gentile." "In Christ"--of course, because Jews don't and, your wishes to the contrary, won't go there. Your Christian triumphalism, with its accompanying lack of respect for Jews and Judaism, shows through.

I find it very perplexing someone who says, " I do believe that in him and through him people found a way into that which is eternal" and also says "I do not believe that the deceased body of Jesus was resuscitated physically on the third day and was restored to the life."

It just seems very silly that someone would believe that Jesus gives eternal life or "God's eternal presence" but refuses to believe he preformed much simpler miracles. He can give us eternal life, but cannot even defeat death himself (through his own resurrection)? What a useless God! What kind of life can he offer us if he cannot save even himself from death? How can one believe that God can give us a new life/humanity but not believe he can multiply bread? Yet, Spong, do you believe God is responsible for bread in the first place? The creation of which is a miracle in itself.

Read the chapter "The Romance of Orthodoxy" in Chesterton's book for a more thorough rebuttal of this theology. Also the book "Miracles" by C.S. Lewis philosophically shows the plausibility of miracles and their necessity for Christianity to make sense in the first place. He also shows the theological meaning of many miracles and how they are vitally integrated into Christianity.

SeattlePte- "Pathetic. SOS, Jack. Nothing new here, folks. Same old, same old."

And you're a worthless, loathsome, son of a you know what, you god damn Pharisee.

You couldn't follow Jesus if he chained you to the back fo a pickup.

It is high time man learned that one need know nothing of Christianity or any other cult and need not believe in New or Old Testament or any other book to recognize and enjoy the personal spiritual presence and guidance of Jesus in everyday life. Something happened at Pentecost that changed the nature of reality on this planet forever.

On that day the Son of God, having completed his incarnation as Joshua ben Joseph, the carpenter of Nazareth, sent his spirit into the world that all men might know him personally, as a totally trustworthy friend, a reliable companion and guide through all the triumphs and tribulations of a mortal existence.

The Apostles, who had known Jesus personally, immediately recognized this supernatural invasion of their minds as the "promised comforter." They were probably not the only ones so aware across the planet, but they had been specifically prepared to expect this event by Jesus and, as the sources for all written records of the event, are made to appear to have had a unique consciousness of the experience.

In any case, as one generation gave way to the next, all were born with this new spiritual endowment. Without a memory of an earlier consciousness (without Jesus' Spirit of Truth), they would not know that what they possessed was in any way different from their ancestors. But it surely was. And it worked within the hearts and minds of all men, whether they knew it or not. And those who have given themselves willingly to work consciously with the spirit have been in the forefront of a continuing revolution in spiritual consciousness.

What does this Spirit do in the human mind? Chiefly, it creates an intuitive consciousness of the ideal we call "truth". We might think of it as the Spirit of Truth. But Truth is much more than mere factuality. Discovery of Truth requires both an understanding of fact and of the limits of pure logic. Truth illuminates our path in life and helps us find God's will for us.

Any person who sincerely asks within his mind for guidance in life will find the True path. To follow the path, know that Jesus' Spirit of Truth will never challenge you beyond your spiritual ability, and conquering each challenge leads to your progressive spiritual growth.

As you grow in conscious interaction with the Spirit of Truth you may come to think of the spiritual presence in your mind as a person with whom you consciously converse. Know this person as Jesus and grow in friendship with him.

Thoughts to Provoke Your Thoughts

Jesus could come back to life from the dead. He could even resurrect dead bodies already rotting in the cemetery. But never, could he ever, resurrect the dead minds of men and the dead hearts of women living in his own community. Naturally, these were among the very same religious morons who got Jesus arrested, tried, and crucified on a cross.

Poch Suzara

i believe jesus is real, that he is at the right hand of God , in heven interceding for us, as the apostle Psul says, and that this book wich i have not read as yet, is to be conforming to the unbeliever way of thinking,
Remember what is said of resurrection if this is not true vain is our belief.
The author is speaking like a nonbeliever instead of a believer.
Take Jesus to the people in the light of the Bible.

Ha Ha Ha Ha!!!

The old apostate is at it again. Same old stuff Jack, we've heard it a million times before.

You think you're daring and revolutionary, with your denial of the Christian faith. But it's worn out hogwash that by now is just plain tedious.

Oh! Jack Spong is denying the divinity of Christ!

Oh! Oh! Jack Spong doesn't believe in the Resurrection!

Oh! Oh! Oh! Jack Spong has another book about the same old stuff he's written about for the past (fill in the blank) years!

Oh! Oh! Oh! Oh! Jack Spong has a bold (ha ha!) vision of a new "Christianity" that he thinks makes sense, and he wants everyone else to follow him instead of Jesus!

Ha ha ha ha ha!!!

See Jack. See Jack write. See Jack make a wad of dough. Oh, oh oh! Write, Jack, write! See Jack write the same old crap again and again, and still make more dough! Trite, Jack, trite!

Pathetic. SOS, Jack. Nothing new here, folks. Same old, same old.

The arrogance of this, of course, is that Mr. Spong presumes that only the citizens of the 21st century are modern--or post-modern. Every new age is exactly that and wrestles with faith in its own ways and with its own terms. And why does Mr. Spong, (surely he does not wish to keep so old a title as "bishop"!), still use such ancient and traditional terms as "eternal, death, finite, transcending, door, realm, divinity, presence, human, new, universal, love, humanity, or wholeness." No fair tossing out only half the language and half the concepts and half the explanations and half the pretzels, but keeping the half that the 21st century Hallmark shops think absolutely divine.

Mr spong's P.T. Barnum spiritual shell game version of Christianity in which he has overflowing "forgiveness" for those that have insulted his majesty,yet professes no virgin born savior,somehow capable of forgiving him, lie in a drity animals feeding trough 2000 years ago is nothing less than a feeble attempt to place himself on par with God.
Quite old,and quite tired.
But as P.T.Barnum and this website attest to, there is a sucker born every minute

On the radio today, there was a preacher that said that god created us so we could worship him. Sounds like the god of the bible, all in all, a grade A pr*ck. He even made his son bite the wax tadpole for his jollies instead of just pardoning humanity for its original sin. By the way, thanks god for saddling everyone to ever exist, at birth, with a dirty slate.

I agree with the people who say that this man should no longer be a bishop. He should aspire to bigger things than trying to rehabilitate a mythology that is beyond salvaging.

That's a nice and thoughtful post, Eric. I don't think I've seen you here before, so welcome.

I'll agree that Bishop Spong's take on things has value: I've really moved on from Christianity, but I don't like to think the whole exercise was a total wash. But if there's good in there, you gotta make it so, especially when there are waves of pressure of Bible-idolatry and theological fascism ready to strip the last remaining goodnesses and leave you with a corrupt and authoritarian system.

(One thing a lot of Christians don't get about 'Pagans is that we really don't actually wish you ill, ...a lot of our ancestors really tried to make good on all that stuff, and that's to be respected. Even if we'll be bulled no ahem about certain things of current affairs interest.)

"Yes, the miracles make Jesus a bit of an uncomfortable figure, but I can't bring myself to jettison them, for two reasons. First, belief in miracles, or at least allowing for their possibility, frees me from the narrow materialism of my own world view and opens my mind to the possibility of the transcendent."

Frankly, to me, that miracles thing looks much like your theism: you struggle to believe in *one* God while being atheistic about all others.

Miracles are really only uncomfortable for people if they're only allowed to credit what they can't immediately-explain to either Jesus or the Devil.

Since Christian belief that only Christ could do miracles, (at least unless you're proclaimed a saint after being executed for the deviltry of 'doing miracles' or whatever, ..well, it seems to me Christians got big drama about casting themselves as the only spiritual thing in an otherwise-dead world... except of course for what can be suspected as 'satanic influence.'

It's just a living world, and there's wonders in it.

And just maybe, you could ease up about that.

It's a big universe.

Read Matthew 24. Jesus tells us He knew this kind of nonsense would go on. He called it false teachers who would lead people away from the truth. Read it...it's all there.

I have no quarrel with Mr. Spong's current project to make Jesus real to 21st-century people. What I find ironic, however, is that he finds belief in any of Jesus' miracles or the miraculous aspects of his birth or life to be confining or restricting. I admit that as a modern person, a product of the prevailing materialism of the post-Enlightenment (and, yes, even postmodern) world, I share a certain distrust of the miraculous.

Yes, the miracles make Jesus a bit of an uncomfortable figure, but I can't bring myself to jettison them, for two reasons. First, belief in miracles, or at least allowing for their possibility, frees me from the narrow materialism of my own world view and opens my mind to the possibility of the transcendent. And not just a transcendence that is abstract and intellectual, but one that is also real in a way that affects me not just in my head, but where I live and move and have my being. Second, without the miracles, Jesus is not the son of God, but just another guy with a really cool message, kind of like an even better version of Barack Obama. And if that is true, I agree with St. Paul that Christians above all others are to be pitied.

" Tome Walters:

When John Shelby Spong says he does not believe in Jesus's virgin birth, resurrection from death, ascension into heaven, nor a Biblical account of one of his miracles, he rejects a large majority of Christian belief. "

Actually, I think he wants to concentrate on your better qualities, ...you do have them, but squabbling about such things as authoritative- excuses to not-necessarily-treat-your-neighbors-so-well really isn't one of them.

You keep losing sight of that love-yer-neighbors-and-be-known-by-your fruits bit. My understanding is that's pretty essential.

For what a Pagan's view is worth.

If you don't wanna get over that, I'll just thank you to be a little less spendthrift with the meek's inheritance, ye-who-think-yer-mighty.

OK? :)

Beautifully said. I don't agree with everything you said, but it is a better synopsis of my Christianity and faith than that of any evangelical or fundamentalist interpretation of Christianity. I do not let them define for me the terms of being a Christian and I am glad that you do not as well.

All the above sounds nice, but none of it has a relationship with the bible and Christianity, except to make Jesus a soft sell instead of the normal resurrection.

This author interprets the bible to intend something else that the bible does not intend. This author appears to be attempting to mix Buddhist concepts with Christian concepts.

Buddhism accepts the Buddha entered nirvana while Christians believe Jesus was born from an immaculate conception, and rose to heaven without a trace of his existence.

Two quite different teachings.

Patrick

Nic: you say you've: "accepted Jesus as my Savior because of the miracles that are everywhere in his history."

Have you asked yourself why you or anyone needs a savior? and why you're so impressed with miracles? To me, walking on water, ascending into heaven, etc., seem like magic tricks that don't really help humanity in any way.

Besides, has it occurred to you that the stories of the miracles are just that - stories? like Batman and Robin or Aladdin and the magic lamp.

One of our neighbors, a man who spent his entire life--spotless in every respect--in service to others, died this past week. We left Easter mass two-thirds of the way through to attend his memorial service at a Reform synagogue a couple of miles away. The memorial service was less steeped in metaphysics than the mass; otherwise the continuities between the two services were far more impressive than the differences. If one sloughs off the doctrinal husks, as Bishop Spong does, one discerns a perennial spirituality beneath the symbols. The essence of it is charity, and it's very far from being a Christian preserve.

It is refreshing to have a Christian scholar actually report back on the absurdity of the Christian dogma! These flights of fancy may have had some usefulness with the various pagan (non-Christian) peoples of the 4th, 5th, and 65th centuries, but today they have no usefulness and just make the useful parts of the Christian scriptures burued under the mountains of absurd trivia, lies, and ridiculus claims! Unfortunately, such enlightenment has no connection to Evangelical Christians, Catholics, and most other Christian sects; but a may provide a path for those "souls" seeking to escape the confinement of their cultural identity with these Christian cults.

Happy Ishtar! May the Goddess provide the Love and the Fertility (in the fields!) that she is invoked to bring!

Yonkers, New York
23 March 2008

John Shelby Spong says that he can believe in Jesus "outside the boundaries of relgion."

And he makes it clear that he no longer believes in the marvelous and miraculous things about Jesus, such as Jesus having been of virgin birth, of Jesus feeding a huge multitude with a single loaf of bread, of Jesus resurrecting after three days of entombment, of Jesus levitating physically upward to a place called heaven to join God, his Father!

But these are precisely those marvelous and miraculous capacities, characteristics and actions which define Jesus Christ as a transcedental being, above and beyond mortal man, as God the Son.

Rip them away from him--as John Shelby Spong has done--and you reduce Jesus simply to the status of another nortal human being, yes a political activist, who is at war with the status quo, with the old Jewish order, with the Sanhedrin, and with Judea's Roman masters headed by the consul Pontius Pilate.

Yes, one can believe in Jesus, the mortal and historical Jesus, completely outside the boundaries of religion.

One can believe in that Jesus purely in secular terms, in the same manner you can believe in Mahatma Gandhi, in King George III, in George W. Bush, in Barack Obama, in Hillary Rhodham Clinton, and in many other secular mortal men and women.

There is such a thing as secular morality which springs naturally from the better impulses of human beings, and which is outside the boundaries of religion as we know it.

My sense is that John Shelby Spong wants to dissociate Jesus from religion, probably having come to the painful realization, the painful truth, that religion--in fact all religions--is nothing more than a clever fraud foisted by calculating and manipulative men for the egregious purpose of exercising control over them.

And that explains why in an Age of Enlightenment, in our Scientific Age, there is no reconciling Religion with Reason--ever!

Mariano Patalinjug
MarPatalinjug@aol.com

I am an untroubled atheist interested in the universal human fixation on deism. Mr Spong appears as a bright and steady light as the plausible explanation overf the muddy river of Christianity. He removes the political aspects of the "control of the masses" and focusses instead on the perception that we inhabit a world in which we can be more than this bellicose, greedy and shallow little creature called Man. He suggests that civilization as well as the individual may exist in an awakened state if we substitute profound thought for blinding faith. Spong is a holy man.

When John Shelby Spong says he does not believe in Jesus's virgin birth, resurrection from death, ascension into heaven, nor a Biblical account of one of his miracles, he rejects a large majority of Christian belief. Then attempts to reinvent Christianity in a way that pleases him : one that serves the people, but does not worship a transcendent God, his son Jesus at His right hand, nor the Holy Spirit. I think his Christianity is half right--God calls us to serve the people and work for justice on earth. I won't know until I'm in His presence after my physical death if God is amused, but I will look around and see if Spong is there. And I'll know right where to look: Paul's reeducation class for self-absorbed clergymen.

I am an untroubled atheist interested in the universal human fixation on deism. Mr Spong appears as a bright and steady light as the plausible explanation overf the muddy river of Christianity. He removes the political aspects of the "control of the masses" and focusses instead on the perception that we inhabit a world in which we can be more than this bellicose, greedy and shallow little creature called Man. He suggests that civilization as well as the individual may exist in an awakened state if we substitute profound thought for blinding faith. Spong is a holy man.

I mean, really. "Obsessed with controlling and denying sex," really isn't any different from just plain 'Obsessed with sex.'

Except it takes more time, I suppose.

You wanna see some good in the world, *bring it, already.*

Gods.

" a Jesus who calls me beyond my limits into a new humanity, beyond my prejudices into a new wholeness, beyond my religion into a new courage to live for others and to be all that I can be."

What baloney. Join the Army, then you can be all that you can be.

"If he is real why doesn't "HE" end the suffering in Darfur?"

Well, this isn't exactly the kind of question Pagans get in a knot about, but just as a little constructive criticism, *ahem.*

Just maybe his people are a *little* too focused on making life harder for queer people to get much else done?

"-The Episcopal Church's first openly gay bishop- V. Gene Robinson recently admitted to being an alcholic in need of rehab..."

Hey, better than pretending to have miraculously ha your brain architecture rearranged, oppressing other gay people, an getting caught buying meth from your gay prostitute. :) If I were a queer Christian, I'd probably have taken to drink at some point, too. :)

Ain't like the ones who preach the real homophobia don't get keep caught diddling the underaged, and *using* the homophobia to keep their victims helpless, is it?

Gods.

The way the *Catholic* church acts, it's as if it's about a need to oppress adult gays while claiming gay Catholics ought to have it beaten out of em and into denial and 'sin-drama' at an early age, then go on to lead a 'celibate life,' ...for which there's only one respectable place in the Catholic worldview... The clergy.

It's not that complicated. And 'Apostasy' isn't really the big problem.

Failure to accept human dignity of *all* is the problem, for *many* churches. How many preachers get caught with their hookers and demand forgiveness and say it just goes to show how bad sex is...

A bishop who had trouble with how he was trreated as a gay guy and humbly turned it to the good, well,

Call that apostasty, but that bishop isn't 'apostate.'

You want apostasy, you talk to me.

If he is real why doesn't "HE" end the suffering in Darfur? (What did the people there ever do to suffer so much?)
How could "HE" have admonished slaves to "serve your master as you might me" ..(esp.
if they are Christians)?
Will there be a separate heaven for former slaves and slave owners?
If he is real, then why does "HE" allow so much confusion in "HIS" name?
Why didn't "HE" write his own book?
(ever heard of "selective memories"?)
Why is it so many of the miracles in the bible not be substainiated; i.e. the parting and subsequent mass drowing in the Red Sea?

Most accept the beliefs of their parents without questioning or examining the tenets thereof.

That actually you, there, Terra? Seems like there may be some misplaced quotes in there, or maybe someone spoofing (lying) for Jayzus again. :)

As for this, 'Faithful:'

"You cannot judge Jesus by all the "churches" that claim to follow him. You cannot judge Jesus because of all sorts of evil that has been done in His name. Don't judge Jesus because some "Christian" that you know is more of a hypocrite than anything else."

If you say that, exactly why is it you think you get to judge *non-Christians,* yourself?

"The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like."

hmm.. Correct me if I'm wrong:

-The Episcopal Church's first openly gay bishop- V. Gene Robinson recently admitted to being an alcholic in need of rehab...

This man is a disastrous Bishop- unable to control his own desires and ill-equipped as a leader of Godly men.

The Episcopal Church is apostate...

churchstatewall-

excellent scripture- here's more from that chapter:

You, my brothers, were called to be free. But do not use your freedom to indulge the sinful nature; rather, serve one another in love.

The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself.

If you keep on biting and devouring each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other.

So I say, live by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the sinful nature. For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want. But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under law.

The acts of the sinful nature are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like.

I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.

But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness and self-control.

Against such things there is no law.

Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the sinful nature with its passions and desires.

Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other.

The U.S. election should not be about religions, but it may help to a better understanding of them. Countrary to some countries like Iran, in the U.S. there is, in principle, a separation of religion and potitics. Preachers are supposed to put God's issues before political issues. And one of God's commandement is that "one shall not murder". During the war in Iraq, the U.S. has murdered prisonners after torturing them. When Saddam Hussein was an ally against Iran, the U.S. closed its eyes on a genocide against the kurdes that killed thousands of children and women (secretary of states Rumfeld at that time was meeting with Saddam giving him his benediction to solidify the alliance against Iran). There are too many examples of this type. Many preachers from the right and from the left can often not close their eyes on these types of events without criticizing the system responsible for them. Those who do close their eyes are not men of God, they are politicians.

So: Bishop Spong gives us the Gospel of Jesus reduced to the Source of Really Good Feelings Inside.

I guess you could call it Schleiermacher on steroids - though that may be an insult to Schleiermacher.

I am thankful to Mr Spong for Chronicling the many aspects of Christ that he "does not believe".
It is quite telling to me however that he does not realize,comprehend,etc,etc,,, that if he had just placed his unbelief in the virgin birth at the top of his list of unbeliefs,all his other unbeliefs would then be made manifest.
Just the same I have got to give him credit,this guy is the undisputed king of unbelief.

Bishop, if all Christians were as generous with the interpretations of the stories in the Bible as you are, and if all Christians also kept their dogmatic religious beliefs out of our politics, science, and education, this world would be a much better place.

JF Stover- ""Whoever loves is of God, and knows
God.....whoever loves not, knows not God, for
God is Love." Love is the standard, period."

Check these out:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%2013:9-10&version=31

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=james%202:8;&version=31;

_

Boniface- "He [Jefferson] cut out every miracle from the story of Jesus and what remained was a story of a man that taught love and compassion and was later killed for it. It's rare but you can find a copy if you look for it."

Makes sense to me. Reading the comments to this list tells me that some here would kill Spong for preaching a message of love and compassion, if the state would sanction such a killing.

Judging by the reactions of bigoted insincere cowards to anyone (like Spong) who preaches love and compassion, the Jefferson retelling really adds up.

http://churchstatewall.typepad.com/

Remember Aslan and the kids strolling through
paradise after "The Last Battle?" (C.S. Lewis)
They find the soldier of Tash who doesn't under-
stand why he's there. The kids are confused
too. Aslan (Christ) explains that many serve
him while calling him by another name, while
many serve evil while using the name of Aslan
(Christ). "Whoever loves is of God, and knows
God.....whoever loves not, knows not God, for
God is Love." Love is the standard, period.

Seems very similar to the "Jefferson Bible." Thomas Jefferson when he was in the White House went into the oval office with a Bible and a pair of scissors. He cut out every miracle from the story of Jesus and what remained was a story of a man that taught love and compassion and was later killed for it. It's rare but you can find a copy if you look for it.

Anne- "Oh ok John Shelby, Make it it fit for you, thats all that matters. You think you this is some new insight huh? The written document about Jesus doesn't need your help or your opinion.... People changing documented word and or using only what they want to fit their inadiqucies, instead of getting full healing and redemption from the truth. Too bad your way doesn't last. Thats why you keep thinking you've found something "new" Old news , Sir. Real Joy Comes from reading and taking the whole word of God."

Why don't YOU take the "whole word of God?"

Looks like you missed this part yourself:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Galatians%205:22-23&version=31

yeah,

so what? Some sandal wearing philosopher wandering around a barren outpost of the Roman Empire...appealing to the downandouters in the Jewish community...

Jesus everybody with half a wit knows all that Jesus rebirth crap is a crock, what else is news?

Oh ok John Shelby, Make it it fit for you, thats all that matters. You think you this is some new insight huh? The written document about Jesus doesn't need your help or your opinion. Call it your revelation so you can get the credit for the lost emptyness your offering people. And change the usage of Jesus name, cause its Holy, unless you only want to use want you want of what Jesus said himself. Use the Dali Lama he's closer to want you want. And isn't that what this is about. People changing documented word and or using only what they want to fit their inadiqucies, instead of getting full healing and redemption from the truth. Too bad your way doesn't last. Thats why you keep thinking you've found something "new" Old news , Sir. Real Joy Comes from reading and taking the whole word of God. Its ok Jesus doesn't need your help. But he does love you and wants you to let go and stop fighting and leaning on your own understanding.

ohn Shelby Spong
I find your words troubleing. I am a biologist in practice, I also teach anatomy to nursing students at Capital Unniversity in Columbus, Ohio. I'm 24 years old, so maybe that makes me lose some credibility in your eyes, but I know what it's like to know worldly truths and be otherwise convinced that these things are impossible.There is nothing special about Jesus if all the miraculous things about him are not true. I've struggled with atheism and accepted Jesus as my Savior because of the miracles that are everywhere in his history. I wonder why, if you don't believe that Christ rose from the dead and was born of a virgin, you can even consider him set apart from other men at all; at least enough to write a book about him and dedicate what seems like a great portion of your life towards the him. I think it is slightly harmful that you seem to be leading people to believe they can fill some hole in their life by accepting what you are telling them. We all have a sense of good and bad in us, even nonbelievers such as yourself, I challenge you to find out what that really stems from and how it got there and to really find out why so many educated people throughout history have given their lives for him. I think those who died in his name would be ashamed to have someone who is affiliated with some semblance of a Christian cause claiming the things you claim and proclaming it to so many people. I am a lot younger than you, but it seems like I've figured out a lot more; it's not as easy as you seem to think it is. Try harder and you'll get there.

With Love,
Nic

"Spong is like all the other non believers who use natural minds to understand Christ."

EVERYONE uses "natural minds" to understand Christ.

Anyone who thinks his or her mind is endowed with special magical powers is considered mentally ill.

Tell me, all you folk who claim to have these special mental powers that the "unbelievers" don't have -- why can't even YOU specially endowed people seem to agree on Biblical doctrine?

Are your special powers failing you too?
People like this hate Spong solely because they cannot control him.

http://churchstatewall.typepad.com/

Spong is like all the other non believers who use natural minds to understand Christ. They can't so they remake Christ to their own liking and there are many many gullible people to eat the dribble up. Spong could probable sit with the Pope, have lunch and leave friends. Doctrines heading in the same damnable directions. For Spong to remake Christ into what He's not and get others to follow his lies means it would be better for Spong to tie a huge rock around his neck and cast himself into the sea. Maybe on the way down he will repent and Christ will save him.

Right you are. Don’t bother with facts or other nonsense. Just believe he came along to make everything hunky dory. Been 2000 years and we still have war, disease and what have you but that’s OK. He’s swell, probably gotta reason, and we gotta love him between and during disasters.

American's Christians are, in vast majority, guilty of heresy against their stated creed.

Neither loving Jesus nor the tough biblical God give their followers any room to justify killing enemies. Jesus said turn the other cheek. He didn't just say it, but he gave himself into death without resistance, sure that his reward for actively loving those who abused him would come be in the next life. God was simpler and more direct. God's like that, it seems. His first commandment was "thou shalt not kill." No ifs, ands, or buts about it.

Human beings are endowed with a conscience. It is the human conscience that leads America to pursue a just war policy: we Americans are proud for having stood up to Hitler, and killed thousands upon thousands of his army and people. Good for us!

I would ask these false Christians, who justify war where Christ, God, and the Bible do not, to stop embarassing our great nation. Leave the church. You are not Christian. It is embarassing and unnecessry that you insist on saying that you are.

If you are truly Christian, then stand and applaud Rev. Wright as he says "god damn America for the killng of innocents" that war involves. Rev. Wright has stood up as a true Christian on this matter. And he is heckled, hooted at, and derided by the false Christians who lack his simple ability to read the Bible.

I find that Spong cherry pick his Yeshua as Walter Kaufmann notes about such theologians. He ignores Yeshua's divine protection rackett and his dopey double the take of the robber and such. Others people with better messages are more worthy of emulation. Pinker shows that in his essay in NYT.
Albert Ellis in "The Myth of Self-Esteem" and Robert Price in "The Reason-Driven Life," show how to live abundant lives!
The bishop just feels good from his mere feeling that behind Existence there is a caring super mind- pareidolia at work!

Nice try, but incarnation is not the reality of Jesus. To believe in Jesus you have to believe that Yahweh saves, that he exalted his human servant to a divine status as his right hand agent in the battle against evil. Jesus second coming has long been delayed. Most people today will believe that there will be no second coming, that the parousia is a false hope. We may still say maranatha (come Lord Jesus) in church, but we don't really expect it to happen.

Jesus was and is not a vehicle of spirituality. He directed people to seek God as their king and free themselves from any power opposed to Israel's theocracy. That we should seek to dwell in the presence of God is an aim that Jesus promoted, and we should follow his lead in that regard. But to expect that presence to flow out of Jesus is a false hope. God and God alone is the Lord. We should imitate Jesus, Muhammad, Zoroaster, the Buddah and all others who have sought God, but we should not make gods or mediators of those who show us the way.

Jesus...Jesus? That Jesus guy was a fraud. The only real god is Thor, damn it! I love Thor. I pray to Thor. I get together with fellow believers and we sing praise songs about Thor. (I know the songs suck, but we're believers not musicians) Thor talks to me -- in English! Thor makes decisions for me. If you don't believe in Thor you can all go rot in, well, wherever. Anyone who doesn't accept Thor as their personal savior is a liberal communist pinko. And probably a Democrat, or worse.

Does it stand that God would bless us with this extraordinary gift of reason and then demand we suspend it in order to believe?

I guess it is simply easier to subscribe to myth as literal than to seek it's deeper meaning.

Why do you waste space on that old fraud? If he had any ethics, he would have resigned as bishop a long time ago. And why do you post crap like his at Easter?

I think it telling that Mr. Spong begins so many paragraphs with the statement, "I do not believe...." Never a truer phrase was uttered.

Jesus is the man I admire most in history. He went against the 'establishment' and preached a totally new philosophy - protect and love each other. He stood up for the oppressed - women, cripples, and the poor.
Was he divine? It makes no difference to me. He was wonderful. Although I don't believe in God or in any religion, I have a deep love and admiration for Jesus and what he tried to teach us.

Ahhh, who cares?

It would help your case to actually quote someone who believes the things that you do. To quote Bonhoeffer is the height of arrogance and stupidity. You undermine what he was geeting at and you know it. Bonhoeffer's idea was that religious fatith could not be contained solely in the religious instituions but must break out if it is truley religious. He did not seek to minimise the faith as you do and remove from it it's foundations and power.

This guy was an Episcopal Bishop?

"...wolves in sheep's clothing..."

If you deny the resurrection, you deny Christ as God.

"Forgive them Father..."

If yes, I will convert to Hinduism.

Ron Paul's views on the war were the only ones that made sense. The other clowns, especially McCain, are as crazy as the Nazis.

God help America...

As comical as the mormon's belief in joey smith

Most Christians will deny this assertion, but Jesus was just a fictional character--- as much the son of god as Hercules was the son of a god.

John and others wrote about this fictional character, which many believe to be the word of god. If the bible were the book of god, then should god not have preserved his words? The Mormons have their own version, the version read by Catholics is different (73 books) versus the Prtestants (66 books). Either someone created or deleted the words of god.

If I write a book that states that I saw on television Benny Hinn raising people from the dead, curing disease, etc., then would people 2000 years later believe that Benny was inspired by god.

Everyday we see Christians priests on television doing scams.

Please--- get real--- Jesus did not exist.

Hindus claim that 6000 - 8000 years ago, monkeys and elephants became gods. Just as ludicrous as claiming that Jesus was the son of god.

Why would this character take the sins of all man upon himself? If after I have raped and killed, or take Hitler for instance, but then I accept Jesus as my lord and savior, I will go to heaven. What a joke!!!

Satish

WOW! I find it so interesting that so many people out there would read an article about Jesus in the first place, since most have never actually read the New Testament. Jesus talks about the dangers of hell even more than he talked of heaven. He came to save us from hell! WHY? Because he loves us. Yep, thats right folks, I'm one of those freaky, "hate filled" right wing Christian fundamentalists. I actually DO believe that those of you who never accept Him as Savior and Lord WILL burn in the lake of fire, traditionally known as HELL. But don't stop reading just yet. Gosh, I must be a nut, right? Unfortunately for you, I am not.

The truth is, because of my faith in Jesus, I cannot hate you. I cannot judge you. My Lord told me to love my enemies and pray for those that hate me. If you read the posts by the believers on this thread, there is no hate, only disagreement with those of you who do not believe. However, we fundamentalists are called irrational, immature, insane, illogical, and full of hate.

Lets evaluate my beliefs and my attitudes. I believe that God created mankind in order to have perfect fellowship with a creature who has free-will. We (mankind) chose to rebel against God even knowing the consequences was death (physically and spiritually). God loved us so much that instead of leaving us to rot, he provided a way (Jesus) that our rebellion (sin) is forgiven. We all put Jesus on that cross. We all share the responsibility. All we must do to be saved is accept God's free gift of forgiveness through Jesus. In doing so, you have restored fellowship with GOD!! Jesus told his disciples to go and spread the good news of God's forgiveness and grace. So that is what I am doing now. You can accept Him or deny Him, its your choice. That's the gospel of Jesus in a nutshell.

So, what is so hateful about that? What is illogical? Insane...? Think about this, if I truly believe these things (and I do) then how could I in good conscience NOT share this message? I would be most evil by keeping the good news to myself, letting those that pass me by go on though their lives never to hear God's saving message. I do not hate you, I will pray for you.

You cannot judge Jesus by all the "churches" that claim to follow him. You cannot judge Jesus because of all sorts of evil that has been done in His name. Don't judge Jesus because some "Christian" that you know is more of a hypocrite than anything else. Seek Him, and He will reveal Himself to you.

So you don't believe anything that I've said right? Those who are "good" go to heaven and those who are "bad" don't, right? Well, I guess we'll discuss that later if your correct. But if you're wrong, well, then enjoy your life, because your eternity is going to be quite uncomfortable.

Happy Resurrection Sunday folks.

as far as i can tell you wasted your whole life following something you don't believe in and also taught other people not to believe.

Spong has done something more remarkable than present Jesus for the non-religious, he has presented a book/worldview for the those lacking the intellect to think. I predict it will be a big hit with the average American of the 21st century (insert irony here).

Jeffersonian and Chris Johnson said it far more eloquently than I could. For updates about the sort of havoc Spong has wrought in the Anglican Communion, check out:
http://www.standfirminfaith.com (cutting edge news & in depth commentary).
and
http://mcj.bloghorn.com (warning - *very* loosely moderated).

If you like Dylan and Harry Potter and are a conservative Episcopalian, please check out:
http://babybluecafe.blogspot.com

I believe your interpretations show a profound ignorance of second Temple Judaism. They strike me as Christianity light for a 20th century audience. I am aware we are living in the 21st century but 21st century scholarship takes first century Judaism much more seriously than the dated 19th and early 20th scholarship upon which you seem to rely.
For a more rigorous discussion of the resurrection that interacts with current cutting edge New Testament scholarship, I recommend N.T. Wright's THE RESURRECTION OF THE SON OF GOD.
Peace,
Rip

To much of what you said, especially "The result for me has been the recovery of a Jesus who commands my allegiance anew, a Jesus who calls me beyond my limits into a new humanity, beyond my prejudices into a new wholeness, beyond my religion into a new courage to live for others and to be all that I can be. It is this Jesus to whom my life is committed." - I say Amen.

Bishop Strong sure takes the fun out of being a Christian.

These views of the limitless Jesus and "your god is too small" are the ultimate theological fudge in light of the obvious inconsistencies and problems with the Chrisitian relgion as based in the bible. When religion is shown to lead to a moral or spiritual fallacy, the theologian just throws his hands up and says, "You see, I told you, it's just totally Unknowable." Fine, but then the next minute he steps into the pulpit and says a lot of things that are for sure, which he"knows." It's the ultimate fudge, also called feather-mattress reasoning. In the end it will just come around to where it is ultimately headed -- morality based on experience and reason.

I don't understand why God would only reveal himself to a small group of bedouins in the middle east and thus make it impossible for the REST of the world to benefit from his often contradictory teachings. Why in his infinite wisdom didn't he reveal his rules for entry to the afterlife to the WHOLE world 5000 years ago, or to his revised edition of the rules 2000 years ago? Religion has ALWAYS been a function of geography and time. If you were born in India up until a couple hundred years ago it was pretty much impossible to be anything but Hindu, or in North America before the Europeans you'd be whatever they were, nature worshipers. How can we be expected to worship a God who will torture for eternity anyone who doesn't accept his existence, now matter how good they live their lives? This is more akin to a ruthless dictator than a god of love and forgiveness. There are too many obvious flaws in the story for it to be true, which wouldn't be the case if it came from a supreme all intelligent being. And to top it all off, virtually none of its proponents actually practice what Christ taught, preferring to point out the weaknesses of others as their main preoccupation.

"Lets see now. No virgin birth. No miracles. No ressurection. No ascencion. Even 'Religionless.'

"So we're left with believe what you like. Do what you want. Kumbaya.

"In this view of religion, Charlie Manson was an okay guy."

-- what an absolute non-sequitur. It does not follow that someone who is skeptical of the virgin birth thereby condones mass murder.

One is a statement about belief. The other is about ethics.

Religious traditionalists should be very concerned about allowing themselves to be associated with this sort of un-reason.

Excellent,

We cannot abandon reason, the very attribute that brought us out of the caves, because clinging to ancient stories is more comfortable.

God does speak to us today, why would he end his conversation with us 2000 years ago. In many ways the noise of the constant repetition of Bible stories drowns out and obscures God's voice today, but we all have the capability to hear it if we can turn away from the pleasant comfort of our convential religious experience.

Never forget that the church is the work of man, divinely insprired perhaps, but clearly subject to error, if not worse, the diversion from its true purpose for worldly ends. The same is true of the Bible, the Koran and every other written work that some would elevate beyond God himself.

Break away from the Bible, the sermons, psalms, and prayers and listen for God's voice, he speaks softly, but he speaks. Do not let the church, the Bible or anything else distract you. Respect them, but relegate them to their proper place, secondary to God's true nature and his wish to reach you today, personally, not though a 2000 year old text.

You will know when you hear it.

Bonhoeffer's writings about CHEAP GRACE aptly describe the Episcopal 'church.'

For those of you who prefer the words of Jesus to Paul, how do you like "Go and sin no more" - or have you already scratched that from those red letters?

I happen to disagree with the Bishop on whether the synoptic Gospels were literal truth or not. I believe in the virgin birth, he does not. He does not believe in many things that most Christians do. And so what?

Jesus loves him anyway, and so should we. And he is need of forgiveness, and so are all of us. After all, Jesus loves us anyway too, right?

Those who read some of the comments here and wonder about the hypocrisy of Christians should realize something: Christians are no better or worse than anybody else - just forgiven, that's all.

Pointing out the hypocrisy of individual Christians or of Christian churches does not discredit Christianity - after all, the Bible is full of mistakes by the Chosen People, and full of mistakes by the 12 disciples. One betrayed Jesus to his death - leading up to tomorrow's Easter. And Jesus predicted that Peter would deny him thrice before the cock crowed - and so he did. The entire point of God manifesting Himself as Jesus, the Word made flesh, was to show us that we are not going to get it right and need divine grace because, whomever we are, we are sure to sin. Judge not lest ye be judged, and worrying about the splinter in this Bishop's eye while ignoring the beam in our own is exactly what Jesus told us not to do. And yet He knew we would do it anyway. And He died for our sins (not just the sins of those others we disagree with, those others we feel get it wrong).

God bless you, Bishop. I think you are wrong on many doctrinal issues, and we can discuss that in heaven because we are all sinners and all forgiven. Perhaps you are right, although I seriously doubt it. But issues like not believing Jesus was of virgin birth are not reasons to hate - we should never hate anybody, and claiming to do it in Jesus' name is a worse error than any this Bishop may have made.

God bless us on this Holy Easter weekend! He is risen indeed!

Excellent,

We cannot abandon reason, the very attribute that brought us out of the caves, because clinging to ancient stories is more comfortable.

God does speak to us today, why would he end his conversation with us 2000 years ago. In many ways the noise of the constant repetition of Bible stories drowns out and obscures God's voice today, but we all have the capability to hear it if we can turn away from the pleasant comfort of our convential religious experience.

Never forget that the church is the work of man, divinely insprired perhaps, but clearly subject to error, if not worse, the diversion from its true purpose for worldly ends. The same is true of the Bible, the Koran and every other written work that some would elevate beyond God himself.

Break away from the Bible, the sermons, psalms, and prayers and listen for God's voice, he speaks softly, but he speaks. Do not let the church, the Bible or anything else distract you. Respect them, but relegate them to their proper place, secondary to God's true nature and his wish to reach you today, personally, not though a 2000 year old text.

You will know when you hear it.

The HATE spewed by these alleged "Christians" in this thread tells the whole story and is the very whilereason I moved away from the Christian church. Majority of these believers love you "IF" you think, act and talk just like they do. If you don't, they are all to happy, and I mean HAPPY, to tell you that you will burn in Hell.

They are about as anti-Jesus as you can get, as they claim their great love for Jesus.

I think Bishop Spong's musings are wonderful, and I thank him for sharing them with the world. His journey of faith has some commonalities with my own, and I see that Bishop Spong has realized a set of beliefs that he can profess without reservations.

All earnest spirits must go through some passages of doubt and revision, else they never reach spiritual maturity. Bishop Spong has paid his dues, and I for one will always listen to whatever he says with enchanted attention.

http://reekinghavoc.spaces.live.com/

It's funny that "Report Offensive Comments" is at the end of every one of these comments, but not after the article itself. Too bad.

What Spong seeks to do is to strip God of all authority and power and meaning so as to make him palatable to people who refuse to accept God's authority or power or meaning. Why ? Spong represents a kind of liberal "Christianity" at its very worst which is more concerned about acceptance by secularist elites than it ever was about loving or serving God. He is precisely the kind of "bishop" that will be produced by a church which degenerated into a country club reflecting elite opinion.

After a generation of Spongs, all the Episcopalian church is is secularist activists in clerical collars looting all that endowment money in the service of their real causes.

If there is a God, then He has intervened in human history. If He is the master of reality, then nature will do whatever He pleases it to do. Insisting that He "can't" do something because it is "scientifically impossible" is frankly irrational. If God is real, He is omnipotent and therefore perfectly capable of making a virgin conceive or parting a sea or making water out of wine or raising a man from the dead. If God can't perform miracles, then He isn't really God, now is he ?

If you deny the ability of God to perform miracles, then you strip Him of all authority or power or meaning. No wonder this Spong character emptied out his church. A Spong's kind of "God" without authority or power or meaning isn't worth getting out of bed early Sunday morning for. Atheists like Spong want a "God" without authority or power or meaning because they refuse to accept His authority in their lives.

..........Paul......the Jerry Falwell of the 1st Century......ahh...hyperbole...just not an accurate use of it....

A better comparison would be:

...Paul...the Martin Luther King Jr. of the 1st Century....

or

...Paul...the William Wilberforce of the 1st Century....

I find it interesting that those who wag their fingers and yell "apostate!" invariably quote Paul (the Jerry Falwell of the first century) instead of the red letters of Christ himself. Maybe you people have been worshiping the wrong guy all along?

Thank you good sir, for giving voice to those few left among us who wish for a sane, logical-and yet transcendentalist-experience on this planet.
-Allen Arledge

So tell me again. How many angels can dance on the tip of a pin?

Pagan Place, you see here that Spong is the worst of the worst. At least you and Lepidopteryx had the integrity to leave Christianity when you could no longer subscribe to its belief system. One can clearly see THIS guy is an atheist, who *REMAINED* a Bishop, during which his diocese had a 40% decline when people wouldn't buy into his bait and switch.

John Spong does not believe what the first Christians believed. The Apostle Paul warned believers about false teachers like John Spong.

Hey, what's with the cheap shot against Home Schoolers?

You want to hear some wacky theology?

Walk into any public school and listen to the world view being preached by the new 'priests' of our time...public school teachers.

HSD

The Jesus Bishop Spong describes sounds a lot like Bishop Spong himself. It would appear that the solipsism that has swamped this Bishop's view of Christianity has similarly overcome his denomination, The Episcopal Church, which embraces faithless apostates such as Bishop Spong while visciously excommunicating orthodox clergy.

Those looking for salvation through Christ would do well to remember this fellow and his organization, avoiding at all costs. You will never see in it anything but your own reflection.

Dom Alered Graham, the Roman Catholic monk, once said:

"I am more interested in the religion of Jesus than the religion about Jesus".

In the Bible Jesus sums up his teaching, or his religion, with the ultimate command to "love one another". This supercedes all other laws and formulas. It also follows that the emphasis logically should be on the teachings and not the teacher. If you don't believe this ask yourself this question: What is more "Christ-like", to have Jesus and no Love, or to have Love and no Jesus? I vote for the latter, and I think Jesus would too.

So for me it follows that ones "Christianity" is best measured by ones actions, rather than by any statement of belief, no matter how well reasoned or articulate. Yes my friends...talk really is cheap.

Dom Alered Graham, the Roman Catholic monk, once said:

"I am more interested in the religion of Jesus than the reigion about Jesus".

In the Bible Jesus sums up his teaching, or his religion, with the ultimate command to "love one another". This supercedes all other laws and formulas. It also follows that the emphasis logically should be on the teachings and not the teacher. If you don't believe this ask yourself this question: What is more "Christ-like", to have Jesus and no Love, or to have Love and no Jesus? I vote for the latter, and I think Jesus would too.

So for me it follows that ones "Christianity" is best measured by ones actions, rather than by any statement of belief, no matter how well reasoned or articulate. Yes my friends...talk really is cheap.

For those who consider Bishop Spong's words blasphemous, try Neal Donald Walsch's "Conversations with God". Growing up Christian, I cannot find anything in his writings that contradict Jesus' and the Bible's essential message of "Love your enemy". Yes I believe Jesus was the Son of God, as are we all.

God Bless the whole world this special Easter weekend!

For those who consider Bishop Spong's words, blasphemous, try Neal Donald Walsch's "Conversations with God". Growing up Christian, I cannot find anything in his writings that contradict Jesus' and the Bible's essential message of "Love your enemy". Yes I believe Jesus was the Son of God, as are we all.

God Bless the whole world this special Easter weekend!

Thank you, Bishop Spong, for not letting the fundamentalists drive you out of Christianity.

Fundamentalism basically strikes me as a religion for the immature. Its believers refuse to think for themselves, instead demanding a God who dictates every moral decision as though they were two-year old children.

Indeed, for some of the commenters here, there is no point at all to Christianity if the bible is not literally true. So their reaction is to close their eyes and ears and pretend not to see the discoveries of science.

I reject this attitude. What is good in the bible and in Jesus' message is good, and what is wrong is wrong. If churches insist on retaining the bad with the good, they will succeed only in making atheists of all honest men.

I respect Bishop Spong, but his dessicated and demystified Jesus -- grounded in disbelief -- does not inspire me. I would take atheism in a different spiritual direction, as illustrated by An Atheist's Prayer by D. Midbar:

http://atheistprayer.blogspot.com

I find it interesting that fundamentalists have set themselves up as the "only" Christians. Well, he's my Jesus too, and Bishop Spong's, and you literalist ignoramuses can never take Him away from me. His message of radical love and forgiveness has never been more needed than it is now.

Rational people have realized the impossibility of literal belief in the Bible at least since Augustine. Mythic stories can touch and inspire, but we know the world is not flat, the sun does not go around the earth, Virgins do not produce male children, and dead bodies are not brought back to life. Is it not enough that we have this miraculous world, this beautiful universe, this improbable and wonderful life? Must legends and fairy tales also be true?

You don't believe in much, do you?

1 Corinthians 15:3-8 says, "For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born."

Gee, that sure sounds like a physical resurrection to me! Sorry to hear that you've lost the Faith of your youth. There's a word for that, "apostate", you can look it up.

This, unfortunately, is not describing true Christianity, which is an actual relationship with God through the Son, Jesus, whose blood was shed for our sins, which separated us from God. Why read the Bible and say you believe in it if your going to pick and choose what you want to believe? Why believe in a Jesus who was not supernatural? His miricles are proof of his diety. If I didn't believe in the things that are hard to believe, I wouldn't claim to be a Christian. That is just "being religious", which is a waste of time. Too bad no one will ever read this because I am sure someone will flag this as inflamatory. I guess Jesus would be flaged as inflamatory too though.

Lets see now. No virgin birth. No miracles. No ressurection. No ascencion. Even "Religionless."

So we're left with believe what you like. Do what you want. Kumbaya.

In this view of religion, Charlie Manson was an okay guy.

On this most important weekend of the Christian year, my fondest wish is that this megalomaniacal old fraud would stop pretending that he is a Christian.

I am continually baffled as to why so many people insist upon the necessity of Jesus' divinity. Are not his revoluntary words enough? Why must we believe in a series of myths, so elequently described by John Shelby Spong, that defy rational analysis? Why can't traditional Christians and Catholics look past the super-natural special effects described in the gospels, and be satisfied with his profound teachings and his love for all of humanity? Are they afraid to follow a mere man? Must he be a super hero?

Perhaps it is because these folks are woefully ignorant of history and how their religion evolved over the past 2000. The notion of the trinity can not be found in the bible. The dogma of the trinity was not established until 325 CE when the Nicene Creed was adopted at the Council of Nicea under the emperor Constantine. As a former Catholic, I can attest to the fact that this tidbit of information was not divulged in CCD class. How many protestant ministers or priests instruct their congregations on the many early Christian sects, and the political machinations that eventually resulted in the dominance of the Catholic church? Perhaps if people understood how our present day religions came to be, they would be less likely to believe their dogma and creed to be "God's word."

Happily I am now a Unitarian Universalist because I respect the dignity of all people and their faiths, and because I recognize and embrace the notion of humankind's interdependence on each other. As is often said in UU churches, "love is the spirit of this church, and service its law. This is our great covenant: to dwell together in peace, to seek the truth in love, and to help one another." I think this more closely resemble's Jesus' call for us to love one another and to work for peace and justice. I am open minded enough to value Jesus' words without needing to believe the bible's stories are literal accounts of his life and death.

I am sorry you denied Christ...

....and I am sad you have since been trying to destroy his work.

"It is hard for you to kick against the goads."

Acts 9:5

JEWs Should be a-shamed of their Religio(n)!

CHRiSTIAN(s) should be a-shamed of their Religio(n)!

ISLAM(s) should be a-shamed of their Religio(n)!

HiNDU(s) should be a-shamed of their Religio(n)!

BUDDiST(s) should be a-shamed of their Religio(n)!

WiCAANs, PAGANS, SHAMANS, VODDOiSTS et al Too!

And other "PRE-APOCALYPTiC" (splinters) SuperStupidStitious competing Faith, Belief & or Religion SYSTEM(s)!

:j
:o
:z
:e v z.us

Bishop Spong,

as a paid member of your site and a reader of many of your books, i must say it's great to see you break out and be abe to reach a wider audience. you really are having an impact.

2 Timothy 4:3

For the time will come when men will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires,they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. They will turn away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

Hey, there was a guy who lived in a small village who was a Carpenter, & he was a "Visionary Dreamer".

Take the "scales" from your eyes, stop with the "blind" faith, & open your MIND'S EYE, so to speak, so your life won't be dedicated to such a cramped, stunted, mean spirited, judgmental & self-righteously hubristic egotistical arrogance, MASQUERADING as "faith".

We have the perfect symbols of "blind faith" in the "TORTURER IN CHIEF & his "Minions" currently inhabiting the Bush White House & his political cronies.

Look at ABU GHRAIB: the Symbol of what "Christians" like Bush & Cheney & Rumsfeld really believe in: power, freed, revenge, hate, torture, murder, & not even having the decency to do their "deeds" with their own HANDS.

They have abused & used American Troops, who wanted only to defend their country, to become their "INSTRUMENTS OF TORTURE" at Abu Ghraib, & the HERO who was the WHISTLEBLOWER that reveals the horrible truth about what the BUSH/Rumsfeld Wolfowitz/Douglas Feith all the "NEO-CONS" were doing, HE was the one persecuted!

The BUSH admin. deliberately revealed the Soldier's NAME, & he & his family's very SAFETY & LIVES were thus in danger, from the likes of the crazy right-wing evangelical "PRIVATE ARMY" Blackwater & even many of his fellow Troops!

What a great EXAMPLE for our Troops, to have the Commander In Chief condone TORTURING human beings.

If JESUS lived TODAY, they would torture & kill him in a Secret CIA prison, the Executioner would be someone from one of the Private Mercenary ARMIES which the Bush regime has built.

Jesus would be considered a "dangerous REVOLUTIONARY", just as the Roman Empire considered him a "dangerous Revolutionary" who was an "agitator", who threatened their political power. They wouldn't "crucify" him, they would stick him up on a Box, with electrodes attached to his fingers, with a HOOD over his head, chained to the ceiling, & make him stand there, with WATER all around the Box, so he would think he would be ELECTROCUTED if he tried to move or get down off the Box.

Or, maybe they would bomb the HELL out of the little Village Jesus lived in, with "AGENT ORANGE" from Warplanes high above, in the Clouds, where the ones dropping it didn't have to witness the children's SKIN being burned off by the oily Agent Orange chemicals.

Remember the little VIETNAMESE girl, running naked down the dirt road, her skin burnt off, because she had been DOUSED with Agent Orange from above?

So, excuse those of us who would LIKE to see a few more VISIONARY DREAMERS here on Planet Earth! Maybe if we havemore Dreamers, we won't bomb ourselves into EXTINCTION as a Species, & ruin the Planet in the process, turning it into RADIOACTIVE SLAG HEAPS where NO other "SENTIENT" life will be able to exist either!

To the Mental "Giant" who called commenters who don't share her beliefs, "stupid":

Hey, look up "SENTIENT" in the Dictionary. Watch "THE UNIVERSE" or "NAKED SCIENCE" or the NASA TV Channel, where our Astronauts are doing acrobatic Spacewalks, & installing "Dexter" the Robot to the International Space Station.

Gaze from the Station's viewpoint, at our beautiful Blue Planet, our "MOTHER EARTH".

The NATURAL world, the NATURAL Universe is awesomely wondrous, it IS the "Creation", & Planet Earth is the "cradle" of Man, our Home Planet.

You might be surprised at what amazing things Humans have discovered about our Universe & Planet, since you last cracked open a Book, obviously when you were home schooled?

Henry:

"And pray to whatever Goddess you believe in that religion is
used no more
to go to war."

So say we all. :)

I'm NOT your biggest fan Bishop. I was an Episcopalian before you (and others) shipwrecked that faith.

Your "Easter Jesus" is a "Jesus" you invented to suit your whims and fancies. You've said- I do not believe very often. OK- then why didn't you take off the collar and go home?

Dietrich Bonhoeffer used the expression "religionless Christianity" only once in his letter of April 30, 1944.

Bonhoeffer also said something perhaps more pertinent to your life's work-

"God hates visionary dreaming; it makes a dreamer proud and pretentious. The man who fashions a visionary ideal of community demands that it be realized by God, by others, and by himself. He enters the community of Christians with his demands, sets up his own law, and judges the brethren and God Himself accordingly. He stands adamant, a living reproach to all others in the circle of brethren. He acts as if he is the creator of the Christian community, as if his dream binds men together. When things do not go his way, he calls the effort a failure. When his ideal picture is destroyed, he sees the community going to smash. So he becomes, first an accuser of his brethren, then an accuser of God, and finally the despairing accuser of himself."

Now there is a Jesus we can love and respect.

And pray to whatever Goddess you believe in that religion is
used no more
to go to war.

The Bishop has come close to the idealic Good of Plato but he cannot escape the idolic good that rejects personal responsibility for behavior. The cloying convictions of religion require the enslavement of self to another. No religion offers freedom and responsibility. No religion offers a belief system and a cultural myth that is less than another. Belief is a natural and universal process. It permits conviction of unlimited imagination in an animal with limited perception of reality.
It is the invention of the supernatural that makes the self superior to others. It confirms power of the group, a necessity to a herd animal.
No, dear Bishop, there is no Santa Claus. You cannot become ethical through grace if you require the subjugation of your fellow man.

Amen to that.

I'm your biggest fan Bishop, I am almost done with your 'Here I Stand'.

You are just awesome.

Shocking!! Simply shocking!! I can think of no other word. I don't know what John Spong is, but it is evident from his writing he is not a Christian.

We are one, brother. Jesus is one of my greatest hero's.

I'll check it out...