Less Fear, More Faith

Spong, as usual, cranks out unproved boilerplate assertions that fall apart if you give them the slightest prod. For example, Peter Singer could rhetorically support his belief that apes are more valuable than 2 year old children or mentally handicapped by saying that respect for the latter two above animals is based on "spiritual immaturity" or "irrational responses".

I leave it as an exercise to the reader to find the others.

danielinthelionsden: please clarify your response to globalone.

"History happens and unfolds by means and mechanisms unknown to us."

You seem to be confusing contingent *events* that make up history with moral principles that should guide us as we live out history.

"Yes, it would seem to be irrational; but what in theory would you substitute, and how would you do it?"

It seems globalone is suggesting that Spong's advocation of moral anarchy and irresponsibility is misguided. Just because history can unpredictable, it doesn't follow that total abdication is the correct course, any more that we should abandon our system of courts and law enforcement, because of the occasional bad cop or unjust verdict. Abstinence education instituted by Christians succeeded in lowering the AIDs epidemic in Uganda, until the UN stepped in and started teaching promiscuity + contraception instead.

"Yours is just a plaintive whine. Is that all you have to offer to the world? How is that attitude Christain, and how does it make you better than everybody else?"

*sigh*. I can imagine any propagandist trying to dismiss his opponents with such rhetoric no matter what they say or how they say it. I suspect you are trying to beat conservatives to the punch, since homosexual activists often seem motivated by self pity and self indulgence. Have you ever felt guilt in your life? Or do you always react with hostility to people who might point out your wrong doing?

jrrlawless:

Next, there were only 56 signers of the DOI not 59. Also, at least the Adams brothers, Jefferson and Franklin were not Christians so your Christian numbers are also BS.

jrrlawless:

I hate to break it to you, but the United States was NOT founded by the Declaration of Independence. The DOI addressed only independence from England and is completely irrelevant to the law of the United States which is imbued exclusively in the Constitution.

Moreover, the DOI was not produced by any representative group nor was it ratified by any representative group.The DOI was produced by a small group of rich white men who wanted to get richer by eliminating the interference of the king.

Globalone

Oh brother! You seem awfully confused, and a little parnoid.

History happens and unfolds by means and mechanisms unknown to us. Yes, it would seem to be irrational; but what in theory would you substitute, and how would you do it?

Yours is just a plaintive whine. Is that all you have to offer to the world? How is that attitude Christain, and how does it make you better than everybody else?

Actually, what's irrational is educating children/adults about sex, condoning their sexual activity, and then completely absolving them of any responsibility or accountability of the consequences of having sex.

Every country that is dominated by religion is a failure. A quote from MaryAnn261.

Let's see we as the USA are the richest nation ever to exist. We are the most powerful nation to ever exist. We are the most influential nation on the earth. We are a nation of many religions but most of all a nation founded by 59 men who signed the Declaration of Independence. 57 of those men were Protestant Evangelical Christians active in their local church.

Doesn't sound like a failure to me.....

Actually, you know, it's sad... All this religious politics you think it'll save you from your own bad decisions to hurt me over....

You're like the high school Church sanctioned 'bullies' and rapists that don't understand when high school is over and who you hurt is no longer under your own rules about what your penis is worth, nor beholden to leering clergy.

Big men on 'campus'

Not so much to you when you find out about the real world.

Snotnosed idiots using Church and politics like that'l control you some poontang?

Call it God?

No.

I'm listening to all you moralists, ...bishops, clergy, spamers alike.

You don't get it.

School's out. Has been.

Yes, what you did is really gonna hurt.

But adults are back in charge.

School's out.

"First, abstinence from sexual intercourse is not a belief; it is a valid practice that a person can choose if he or she so desires."

It's also not as bloody *hard* as people crack it up to be when they want to use it for one purpose or another.

Much noise is made about how everyone needs to come after my civil rights, but the only trouble I ever had in *person* about sex from Christians about a) stuff they imagined in that little pressure cooker of yours and/or denial of the simle fact sex is *not* that big a deal, even if I have the temerity to not be yielding to *you.*

Sport.

Once again you fail to understand:

First, abstinence from sexual intercourse is not a belief; it is a valid practice that a person can choose if he or she so desires.

And second, it is of course a good idea to remind children that they have every right to abstain from sexual intercourse for as long as they feel that that is best for them.

What is irrational is to tell children that their eternal soul will be condemned to an eternity of suffering in the fires of hell by a magical supreme being if they do not practice abstinence, or if they have the temerity to masturbate while they are attempting to remain celibate.

PSolus,

"If you brainwash children with irrational, nonsensical, and superstitious religious beliefs, they will make irrational, nonsensical, and superstitious mistakes all their lives"

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I would agree with you if I understood what sort of "irrational" beliefs would lead children to make consistently poor choices in the future.

If you are including abstinence in this discussion then I am somewhat puzzled. Given that abstinence is the only known preventative against STD's and pregnancy that is 100% effective. Those are the facts and they are not up for discussion.

Also, doesn't the child who hears both sides of the equation (abstinence at home, condoms at school) stand a better chance of making a more well rounded decision in the future than the child who is told only one thing or the other?

globalone,

You fail to understand the point of my comment; the point is:

If you brainwash children with irrational, nonsensical, and superstitious religious beliefs, they will make irrational, nonsensical, and superstitious mistakes all their lives.

If you teach them to think rationally and sensibly, they will stand a better chance of making the correct decisions.

PSolus,

The instruction on the use of condoms during intercourse is ALREADY part of the curriculum in public schools for elementary age children. So, unless you believe abortions are performed only on children of "religious" parents who don't get such instruction, your comments are meaningless.

Excluding certain situations, abortions are the result of two people engaging in sexual intercourse, who knowingly understand the consequences of such action yet refuse to accept any sort of responsibility or accountability for such action.

globalone,

What is rational and sensible is teaching children that masturbation is not a sin against an imaginary god, but that it is in fact a healthy, natural, and safe alternative to sexual intercourse.

What is rational and sensible is teaching children that contraception is not a sin against an imaginary god, but that it is in fact effective protection against sexually transmitted disease and unwanted pregnancy.

If more people masturbated and/or used contracetion, there would be almost no need for abotions.

Maryann261,

"This country needs rational thought, and religion is anything but rational"
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Do any of these "surgical" (read: science) procedures sound "rational" or "sensible" to you?

* The fetus is rotated and forceps are used to grasp and pull the legs, shoulders and arms through the birth canal. A small incision is made at the base of the skull to allow a suction catheter inside. The catheter removes the cerebral material until the skull collapses. Then the fetus is completely removed.

* The abortionist injects a strong salt solution directly into the amniotic sac (fluid surrounding the baby). The baby breathes and swallows it, is poisoned, struggles, and sometimes convulses. It takes over an hour to kill the baby. The mother delivers the dead baby in a day or two (sometimes alive!). The corrosive effect of the salt solution often burns and strips away the outer layer of the baby's skin. This exposes the raw, red, glazed-looking subcutaneous layer of tissue.

* Inserting numerous thin rods made of seaweed a day or two before the abortion. Once the cervix is stretched open the doctor pulls out the fetal parts with forceps. The fetus' skull is crushed to ease removal. A sharp tool (called a curette) is also used to scrape out the contents of the uterus, removing any remaining tissue.

ah yes, religion....the bane of humanity......for selfish folk to live again.....children....screwing up the world.

Religion is a fraud. Used by evil folk to get their way. This Newark guy, for ezample, he, by complicity, might as well be blowing up babies in Gaza today.

Those who support religion support the Taliban, support apartheid, support anti-human rights in the name of the lord across the board. Shame on you. Everyone of you.

I hope that religious discussions slither back into churches. I'm really tired of the topic.

Amen to that, Bishop. Tolerance, warmth, common sense. We need more of all of them and Christianity needs to lose the now so dominant pharisées.

For me personally, I also take God out of the equation, since I don't think there is a God.

Amen to that, Bishop. Tolerance, warmth, common sense. We need more of all of them and Christianity needs to lose the now so dominant pharisées.

For me personally, I also take God out of the equation, since I don't think there is a God.

Bishop Spong's specific messages and intent are closer to what I was raised being "Christian" really meant, rather than how it's been hijacked by the radicals in recent years.
Only one further thought I'd leave him with, though: His basic title - that implies we should have more faith - implies that blind religious faith (is there any other kind? If it was historically true, faith wouldn't be needed to 'believe' in it), is intrinsically good. And I don't think that is true; the blind faith, and actively fighting thinking, reason, science, etc. is the problem.
That great American sage, Archie Bunker, said: "Faith is that thing that allows you to believe in things that no one in their right mind would otherwise believe in". Mark Twain put it more simply: "Faith is believing what you know ain't so".

My hope is that religion will disappear. I know it will not, but I can hope. It is one of the greatest shackles on the human mind and a tremendous hindrance to progress of any kind. Every country that is dominated by religion is a failure. Such societies do not allow for independent thought or innovation because they threaten the religious establishment in such societies. Since the religious far right had dominated in the U.S., the nation has slipped backwards and other advanced nations have jumped over the U.S. This country needs rational thought, and religion is anything but rational.

Women's equality, including reproductive rights, gay and lesbian rights, pro-science policies, control over one's personal life will never come to fruition as long as religion plays a major role in policy formation. Religion does not belong in the public realm, especially in government. Religion and government mix like oil and water. Secular laws, based on rational thought, must prevail.

My hope is that religion will disappear. I know it will not, but I can hope. It is one of the greatest shackles on the human mind and a tremendous hindrance to progress of any kind. Every country that is dominated by religion is a failure. Such societies do not allow for independent thought or innovation because they threaten the religious establishment in such societies. Since the religious far right had dominated in the U.S., the nation has slipped backwards and other advanced nations have jumped over the U.S. This country needs rational thought, and religion is anything but rational.

Women's equality, including reproductive rights, gay and lesbian rights, pro-science policies, control over one's personal life will never come to fruition as long as religion plays a major role in policy formation. Religion does not belong in the public realm, especially in government. Religion and government mix like oil and water. Secular laws, based on rational thought, must prevail.

Spong old man, as you believe none of this religion stuff anyway, why about it? Go smell the roses while you can.

Less fear, more faith sounds definitely better than most other phrases thrown around by other religious figures.
Less fear alone could go far enough to make everyone's life a lot better than it is today.

So many people use religion as a psychological defense system rather than as a way to spiritual enlightenment. Most of bishop Spongs opponents are obvious cases in point.

My hope is that Episcopal and Anglican bishops like Bishop Spong and Archbishop Rowan Williams disappear into obscurity as they are so far from being Christians and are misleading a lot of people.

TIME TO TAKE THOSE CAPTURED 'SUICIDE BOMBERS' AND PUT THEM ON TV ++++ WITH MAJOR COVERAGE ++++ SAYING THEY'D BEEN 'TRICKED.'

BY ANALOGY TO VIETNAM, UNTIL THOSE IN POWER STARTED HAVING THEIR SONS & DAUGHTERS SERVE AS SUICIDE BOMBERS [IN VIETNAM, IT WAS THE DRAFT] THOSE IN POSITIONS OF POWER IN THE ISLAMIC WORLD WILL CONTINUE TO USE ++++ CHEAP LABOR ++++ I.E., SOMEONE ELSE'S SON OR DAUGHTER ++++ TO DO THE DIRTY WORK. AND THEY WILL SEEK OUT VICTIMS TO CARRY THEIR SUICIDE ATTACKS AMONGST THE INJURED.

DERANGED INDIVIDUALS, ESPECIALLY DUE TO DRUG OR ALCOHOL ABUSE, OR OTHER MAJOR LIFE TRAUMAS ALWAYS RESERVE SUICIDE AS THEIR 'LAST ESCAPE' FROM REALITY -- UNTIL THEY REALIZE THAT SUICIDE IS NO ESCAPE, OR THEY, ONCE AGAIN CHOOSE LIFE.
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GIVING UP ONE'S LIFE FOR ANOTHER IS PERHAPS NOBLE, BUT IT IS NOT AS NOBLE AS LEARNING HOW TO FORGIVE AND THEN MOVE ON.

FORGIVENESS IS THE GREATEST HUMAN ATTRIBUTE, FOR IN A WORLD OF PERFECT JUSTICE, OR PERFECT KARMA, DESTRUCTION IS THE RESULT.

PERHAPS THIS IS WHY THE SONS AND DAUGHTERS OF THE SAME GOD, HAVE FOR THOUSANDS OF YEARS NOT LIVED IN PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST AND AS RADICAL FORMS OF ISLAM WERE EXPORTED TO THE REST OF THE WORLD, THEREIN CONFLICT HAS BEEN BREWED ANEW.

"more universal, less creedal form of religion"

Like Judaism?

Galatians 1:8-9