Christian path not the only one

RONR4

You wrote, "You responded to the point I was making to John Shelby Spong. His (Spong’s) position appears to me to be "No one comes to the Father, but through my understanding of God." He’s written countless words that seem to state this position as his own. Sorry if you thought I was attributing that position to you."

Yes, it did seem to me that you thought/wrote that this is my "position" and it most definitely is NOT and I am thankful that you pointed this out to me.

I do not know too much about Mr. Spong but the little that I have gathered about him, is that he either knows nothing or virtually nothing about God.

You then wrote, "As to your response, I find it curious that you can profess that God is a trinity and seemingly deny that Christ was sent by God the Father (first person of the Trinity) to redeem His people."

I have never denied this but I have also said that Jesus CHOSE to become One of us, "I and the Father are ONE".

I have also said that Jesus became the Son of God and the Son of Man when Mary said YES, before that He was the Second Person of the Trinity, He is still the Second Person of the Trinity and always will be.

As far as "to redeem His people", I have said that ALL OF US are His people, "Let Us make man in Our Image", so "to redeem His people" means just what it says and that is what I have been saying.

You then wrote, " I was simply stating in John 14:6 Jesus Christ was making clear to Thomas the path to God the Father. That path is through, and only through, Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity."

I take Jesus at His Word here and that is why I believe that it was thru Jesus that God the Father came into my heart.

What I was pointing out tho, is that there is nothing said about only one way to Jesus or one way to the Holy Spirit and since God Is a Trinity... .

You then wrote, "And it is quite clear from what Christ said in this text and the witness of many other biblical authors that we all will most definitely not all “make it Home”, if by “Home” you mean the new heaven and new earth that God the Father has promised to those who belong to Jesus Christ."

There are "biblical texts" that most definitely point to Jesus being the Saviour of the world, I am not saying that hell and spiritual death are not real but that Jesus "won" the "keys" to them and will use them in due time, God's Time.

Yes, I do mean the new heavens and the new earth which will arrive, exactly how I do not know, at the dawning of the seventh day but as we have been told, the night of the sixth day will precede it.

There are times in the bible that what is not in a statement speaks volumns also, if only we have ears to hear.

God has had His Plan since before creation and God's Plan will come to Fruition, as a matter of fact, God chose me before creation to be one of His messengers but I, most definitely, did not know it until I knew it.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

nikosd99

As it is written, "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me."

As it is written, "Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me."

Seems to me to be pretty clear.

Seems to me that ALL OF US are a "mixture" of "goat and sheep", are we not?

As I wrote in my previous post concerning this passage, Jesus speaks of our treatment of our fellow human beings not of us "following Him", how clear do you need it spoken to you?

As I also previously wrote, this is not the "whole" of what Jesus said.

If you wish, you may check out Matt 11: 25-27, have you ever met Dad?

Do you realize that there is a difference between eternity and everlasting?

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Love, knowledge and...

Seekers of spiritual knowledge might ask, “What’s love got to do with it?” Devotees of devotion reply, “Divine love is everything.” In mystical “marriage,” divine union, you can’t have one without the other. Divine Love and divine Truth are One in divine Reality.

In Sufism of Islam, knowledge is the key which opens the lock of love. Ma`rifa, spiritual knowledge, is essential to properly guide those who are intoxicated with mahabba, love for the divine. They are two of the last stations on the mystical path. Sufism often uses exquisite poetry to convey our longing for the divine. Some of the verses were considered too erotic by orthodox Muslim clerics. Sufis say that they are just allegories to express the inexpressible.

In Hinduism, bhakti is our devotion in love and adoration of the divine. Jnana is knowledge of the way to approach the divine. Both are considered paths to realize divine union and to be released from samsara, the cycle of birth and rebirth. The way of devotion is the preferred path of most Hindu movements, as in many orthodox religions; the way of knowledge is emphasized in Vedanta; preferred and emphasized, perhaps, but they are not mutually exclusive.

The “Song of Songs” (Song of Solomon) in the Hebrew Bible, or Old Testament, are a series of love poems which may appear to be secular. Both Jewish and Christian mystics, however, interpret them as love of God for his people. The “mystical marriage” is mentioned frequently in the Kabbalah of Judaism and by Christian mystics, although the latter often allude to love between Jesus and his faithful. Divine union is the joining of the lover and beloved; it is also the unity of knower and known. Love and knowledge are coequal and complementary.

All Buddhists are devoted to the Buddha; many may also worship bodhisattvas and celestial gods or goddesses. They do not “love the divine” in the common, theistic sense, but that which is found in highest spiritual experience. Sanskrit prajna, the direct awareness of sunyata, emptiness of self, is the perfect wisdom. Love is usually expressed as loving kindness, universal love for all beings...a concept and virtue shared by the traditions of mysticism in all religions.

This life’s mortal loves, mundane truths and worldly realities are finite and transient. In the divine One, endless Love, absolute Truth and ultimate Reality are infinite and eternal.

(quoted from "the greatest achievement in life," my e-book at www.suprarational.org )

nikosd99

Thank you for your response. I believe your points are well-made. And I very much appreciate your posting of the text. I should have done it in the first place. God bless.

THOMASBAUM

You responded to the point I was making to John Shelby Spong. His (Spong’s) position appears to me to be "No one comes to the Father, but through my understanding of God." He’s written countless words that seem to state this position as his own. Sorry if you thought I was attributing that position to you. Perhaps it would help if you read my response again and asked me to any more clarification. I do want you to understand my point.

As to your response, I find it curious that you can profess that God is a trinity and seemingly deny that Christ was sent by God the Father (first person of the Trinity) to redeem His people. I agree with you that we (humans) are in no position to tell God where or how He may be found. I’m not suggesting any such position as that. I was simply stating in John 14:6 Jesus Christ was making clear to Thomas the path to God the Father. That path is through, and only through, Jesus Christ, the second person of the Trinity.

I am one who believes that the Bible is the Word of God. Yes, I believe the Word became flesh, as testified by St. John in the first chapter of his gospel. I agree, the Bible is not God. But the Word, that is Jesus Christ, is God, as is also testified by St. John in the first chapter of his gospel.

The text I cited in Matthew is not fundamentally about helping people. It’s about following Christ and obeying Him and the consequences of doing or not doing that. Of course, this is not the only place where what Christ said is recorded. And it is quite clear from what Christ said in this text and the witness of many other biblical authors that we all will most definitely not all “make it Home”, if by “Home” you mean the new heaven and new earth that God the Father has promised to those who belong to Jesus Christ.

RONR4:

Did you notice that THOMASBAUM completely ignored the context of Jesus' words in Matthew 25:31-46? Instead he made a nonsensical statement that there was no mention in that passage of Christ being God-Incarnate, nor about following or proclaiming the Good News. How does that nullify what Christ had to say?

For the record, let's post that scripture.

Matthew 25:31-46 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in: Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me. Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink? When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee? Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee? And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, DEPART FROM ME, YE CURSED, INTO EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS: For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not. Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee? Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Is there any doubt to anyone who can read and understand that there are going to be people who are going to be cast into a lake of fire that was prepared for the devil and his angels?

The bottom line: Follow Jesus Christ for eternal life with Him. Follow Satan for eternal punishment with him.

RONR4

You wrote, "The "absurd claim" you cite, "No one comes to the Father, but through my understanding of God." would appear to be the position you take."

I have never made that claim and it is not the "position" that I take.

You then wrote, "It is certainly not of Christ for, as He told Thomas, "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6)."

Yes, this is what Jesus said and if you notice, what He said was, "No one comes to the Father except thru Me", He did NOT say, "No one comes to God except thru Me".

Since God Is a Trinity, who are we to tell God that there is only one way to Jesus, God-Incarnate, or one way to the Holy Spirit?

Seems to me that you may be accusing me of taking a "position" that just might be yours.

It is not about "religion", it is about a "relationship" and about a "Plan" which is unfolding before our very eyes.

This "relationship" is between God and His creation.

This "Plan" is The Plan that God has had since before creation.

You also wrote, "Your view of the Gospel is at odds with the Bible."

This is your opinion.

Ultimately, it is not about the bible either, the bible may or may not lead someone toward God, the bible is about God, it is not God.

The bible is NOT God, some people refer to the bible as the "Word of God", I would like to ask you: Did the bible become flesh?

It says very clearly in the bible, "And the "WORD" became flesh", doesn't it?

Seems to me that it was Jesus, God-Incarnate Who became flesh, not the bible.

You also wrote, "One powerful example is given by Christ Himself in Matthew 25:31-46. How would you explain otherwise?"

If you notice in this excerpt from the bible, there is not one thing about believing in Jesus, not one thing about acknowledging Jesus as God-Incarnate, not one thing about following Jesus, not one thing about Proclaiming the Good News, it is all about how we treat our fellow human beings, is it not?

By the way, this is not the only thing that the bible claims that Jesus spoke, is it?

To put it in a "baseball metaphor", one could say that God has all of the bases covered so that we ALL will make it Home.

As I have said before: God wins, satan loses, a tie is absolutely and utterly unacceptable.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

THOMASBAUM

Your view of the Gospel is at odds with the Bible. Not everyone belongs to Christ. One powerful example is given by Christ Himself in Matthew 25:31-46. How would you explain otherwise?

John Shelby Spong

The "absurd claim" you cite, "No one comes to the Father, but through my understanding of God." would appear to be the position you take. It is certainly not of Christ for, as He told Thomas, "Jesus answered, 'I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me." (John 14:6).

nikosd99 Part I

You wrote, "You think that all people will be saved"

I not only think it but I stake absolutely everything on Jesus being the Saviour of ALL, not on Jesus having some kind of worthless tie.

Things haven't changed much have they, there were those that wanted the "best seats in the house", so to speak, rather than at least hoping that there was a "seat for everyone".

You wrote, "I consider you a heretic and will not debate the issue with you."

The "religious" of Jesus's day considered Him a blasphemer and you consider me a heretic, interesting.

You then wrote, "You are incapable of rightly dividing the word of truth.(2 Timothy 2:14-16)"

Isn't that why Jesus sent the Holy Spirit to us?

By the way, have you ever checked out 1 Tim 2,

3For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;

4Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

5For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;

6Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Interesting, "ransom for all", God is not the loser you think God to be, I consider a "tie" to be a loss and a tie is absolutely unacceptable.

You then wrote, "Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath."

If God's "anger" and God's "wrath" are not ultimately for "good" but only to show us that He is "bigger" than us than all it does is show us that God is "smaller", as in being a petty bully, than us, you are wrong in thinking that God is some kind of egotistical, maniacal, petty bully.

nikosd99 Part II

You then wrote, "Hebrews 9-27,28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

There is more to the bible than the one verse that you quote here and there is more in the bible about "judgement" than you write here and it also speaks of God declaring "Victory in favor of the Holy Ones", not a tie.

You then wrote, "Galatians 1:7-9 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed."

If God were even remotely like the losing, egotistical, bully that you conceive of God to be than I would want to be accursed, whatever that may mean.

"Father forgive them, they know not what they do", just as true and relevant today as when Jesus first spoke these words.

"them" stands for "us", "us" stands for "humanity", if the GOOD NEWS is not for ALL then it is not Good News at all but a worthless partial victory for some who don't seem to care about what happens to the rest, God is NOT the blood-sucking tick that "some" seem to want Him to be.

By the way, "gospel" means GOOD NEWS.

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom.

It's God's Plan.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

THOMASBAUM

John Shelby Spong was born in 1931 so that makes him 79 years old. That means he is running out of time. I offer the following scriptures to support my statement. I know that you preach a different gospel than what is contained in God's Word, the Bible. You think that all people will be saved. I consider you a heretic and will not debate the issue with you. I have endeavored to correct you on this in the past. You are incapable of rightly dividing the word of truth. (2 Timothy 2:14-16)

Psalm 90:10-12 The days of our years are threescore years and ten; and if by reason of strength they be fourscore years, yet is their strength labour and sorrow; for it is soon cut off, and we fly away. Who knoweth the power of thine anger? even according to thy fear, so is thy wrath. So teach us to number our days, that we may apply our hearts unto wisdom.

Hebrews 9-27,28 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment: So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Galatians 1:7-9 Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. As we said before, so say I now again, if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.

Rev. Spong writes:

So any religious system that pretends that is "the only true faith" is both arrogant and idolatrous.
-----------------------------
I posted almost the identical words on Susan Jacoby's thread a couple of weeks ago. I believe I left out "arrogant," thinking "idolatrous" was sufficient. (I'm Jewish.)

Bishop, I teach students who for the most part were raised in the Catholic and Lutheran traditions. As the Catholic students are continue to leave the church, I've noticed an interesting mini-trend. It seems that some of these former Catholics have headed down the Episcopal way, and you are among the explanations they give.

nikosd99

You wrote, "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

Then you wrote, "The Not-So Reverend Spong needs to get himself born again. At his age, he's running out of time."

Who are you to put a "time limit" on this, God didn't, did He?

See you and the rest of humanity in the Kingdom, God's Plan will come to Fruition.

Take care, be ready.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

Very well said.

God is larger and stranger than we can possible know. How can mere human concepts encompass that which existed before time and the universe?

Have you thought how much religious beliefs are derived from the earlier idea that the earth was the center of the universe? When we could believe that the earth was a unique creation of God, the only planet with intelligent life, then the ideas of Adam and Eve and original sin made some sense. In that limited universe of the earth and the heavens, there was only God and the angels and devils out there and man and the animals God created here.

Who are we to God if we are only one of a million planets. If there is even only one more world with intelligent life, who is God to them? Did they also have an Eve who ate from the tree of forbidden fruit, seduced another Adam to share it, and thus condemned all future generations to sin? Did Jesus come for them, too?

I think you are right about choosing a path to God and living that path. There are many ways to God. He is not hiding. He wants to be found. So He comes to us in ways that we can find Him. For some that is Christianity. For some, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, or any faith that seeks to know good.

Thanks.

Once more, the apostate John Spong shows his total ignorance of God's word.

1 Corinthians 2:14
But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

The Not-So Reverend Spong needs to get himself born again. At his age, he's running out of time.

Thank you, Rev. Spong. Your messages are always reassuring. It's good to know that not all Christians believe that theirs is the only way.