It is How We Deal with the World

"...what makes us cling to
religion is not man-made-- that is the awareness of God within and beyond
us, and the sense that it is for us to try and make God's world, God's
creation, a better place- and that imperative comes from the divine."
-----------------------------------
I disagree. There is no reliable evidence supporting these statements -- only faith. You are assuming that we all take what you believe on faith to be fact, as well. Nonsense! Faith in God comes from human desires and limitations we impose on ourselves.

Lets get back to Hitchens...want to see this slimeball get his ass kicked in a debate on the Iraq war:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zH_BULU2vcM

Great stuff!

I bet he came up with this new book to divert from his stance on the Iraq war.

What a NEOCON, what a piece of TROTSKYITE scum!!!!!

Permanant revolution, eh? How is it going, Hitch???

Dear Julia,

I go to my local Catholic Church every Sunday. The ritual and the chanting of repetitious verses leaves me very bored. Occasionally something interesting happens such a sermon that gives us historical insight into the practices of the early Church.

A lot of it is unchallenged myth. My view of God upsets some people. I say that I am not sure that he exists even though I pray to him (and often tell him that I am not sure that he is real).

I think that God has offered us a way of life along with decency and kindness. I do not see him as being interested in controlling or watching over every part of our lives. If things go wrong it is not God who is testing us. Earthquakes can be explained by geologists. Car crashes can be explained by negligence. Arguments arise from our competitiveness and irritability etc. In other words, I believe that God has given us a set of beliefs and a soul but he is not with us every part of the day. I am not sure that heaven exists. I know that dead bodies get buried and remain in the same spot for ever. Our souls are our conscience.

Dear Julia,

I go to my local Catholic Church every Sunday. The ritual and the chanting of repetitious verses leaves me very bored. Occasionally something interesting happens such a sermon that gives us historical insight into the practices of the early Church.

A lot of it is unchallenged myth. My view of God upsets some people. I say that I am not sure that he exists even though I pray to him (and often tell him that I am not sure that he is real).

I think that Gos has offereed us a way of life along with decency and kindness. I do not see him as being interested in controlling or watching over every part of our lives. If things go wrong it is not God who is testing us. Earthquakes can be explained by geologists. Car crashes can be explained by negligence. Arguments arise from our competitiveness and irritability etc. In other words, I believe that God has given us a set of beliefs and a soul but he is not with us every part of the day. I am not sure that heaven exists. I know that dead bodies get buried and remain in the same spot for ever. Our souls are our conscience.

Hi Nalina

"Evidence suggests that humans and some other animals are capable of behaving altruistically w/out awareness of or intervention from anything beyond nature; no evidence has suggested otherwise."

The Post carried a science article today how neurologists are finding altruism is hardwired in our human brain and therefore present in all cultures --and is likely present in (at least some) animals too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/27/AR2007052701056_2.html?hpid=topnews

Speaking from my own experience, I can say my feelings of altruism did not decline after I determined my childhood religion was based on a foundation of superstition. On the contrary, once I realized this was the "only" life the poor and disadvantaged on earth were going to have -- I felt MORE compassion and a moral obligation to help them, because previously I had sloughed this off as a problem for "God" (who would correct for it in heaven, yada yada.)

Julia Neuberger is not sloughing off the rest of the world as God's problem. For this, I nod my head in respect to you, Ms. Neuberger!

Hi Nalina

"Evidence suggests that humans and some other animals are capable of behaving altruistically w/out awareness of or intervention from anything beyond nature; no evidence has suggested otherwise."

The Post carried a science article today how neurologists are finding altruism is hardwired in our human brain and therefore present in all cultures --and is likely present in (at least some) animals too.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/05/27/AR2007052701056_2.html?hpid=topnews

Speaking from my own experience, I can say my feelings of altruism did not decline after I determined my childhood religion was based on a foundation of superstition. On the contrary, once I realized this was the "only" life the poor and disadvantaged on earth were going to have -- I felt MORE compassion and a moral obligation to help them, because previously I had sloughed this off as a problem for "God" (who would correct for it in heaven, yada yada.)

Julia Neuberger is not sloughing off the rest of the world as God's problem. For this, I nod my head in respect to you, Ms. Neuberger!

Why is that some comments text areas are disabled here? Is it a bug or some conspiracy? Before WP fights for press freedom elsewhere they might want to fix their bugs first. Because this is really unprofessional at least.

That's nice, when Bush made all those flowery speeches and stuff, he effectively passed what amounts to a 'stealth' church tax, which I adamantly oppose due to the fact that I neither support organized religious institutions(or disorganized ones, for that matter), nor do I wish to be paying for their upkeep.

Speaking as a heathen-american(means I never missed church, and they don't miss me either), I respect their capacity to practice whatever it is they do, some call it larceny, but they're free to do it so long as that scale and scope of practice remains outside my front door, and has no government authorization to start lifting money out of my wallet. And, further, they need to start talking to some of their Ordained Ministers. The company I worked for(won't name it) just hired That Guy. That Guy claimed to be an ordained minister. That Guy signed on to get paid pretty decently. But, what's the first thing That Guy starte doing? Pan-handling the rest of the staff. Yeah. That Guy. All in the name of God, right? Riiiiight. That's my personal testimony as to one observed negative phenomenon taking place in the name of the Cloth, one small bit of evidence of intentional and probably systematic wrongdoing, social parasitism in the name of the Church, false prophet or otherwise.
Ever since they found a couple of the Pointy Hats with an unusual fondness for little boys, the Church's reputation has been headed downhill, and it's going to take a lot of image-polishing to bring things back up to snuff.
Let's see the books, keep the flowery speeches and the Phil Donahue psychobabble for someone else. Public accountability and transparency, or NO Jesus license. Period.

>

What makes us cling to anything? Science, esp. research in psychology, provides some answers to that question. For me and many people close to me, the imperative to make the world a better place for humans and other life doesn't come from God; we don't even believe in God. My parents have many traditional Chinese superstitions, and my boyfriend and I are atheists and naturalists. Evidence suggests that humans and some other animals are capable of behaving altruistically w/out awareness of or intervention from anything beyond nature; no evidence has suggested otherwise.

I like you Julia,

The problem with your post is that it doesn't explain why believers can have such closed minds and do terrible things -- including to other believers.

As one example -- Why do so many religious folks support George Bush and the evil he is doing in Iraq?

I'll go this far with you though, Julia -- If all believers were good people like you -- I'd think this would count as real proof for something godlike out there -- something I would definitely consider.

Right now, it all looks like superstition to me!

You say:
"Of course religion is man-made -- it is a human response-- and
structuring into human organizations- to the awareness of God within and beyond
human beings."

I disagree. It's a response rather to the awareness of the unknown within and beyond human consciousness. The difference is that which limits or expands human consciousness. If we accept the concept "God", which has no precise objective meaning whatsoever -- never has, never will -- we negate the possibilities of science and creative human, often revolutionary, thought. Of course, "religion" is an institutional approach to authority (as you suggest) which has nothing to do with that amorphous concept of "God". The difference between Jesus and Jerry Fallwell is a good case in point: Both are charismatic leaders, one died for his revolutionary activities, which few understood at all; while the other simply preyed on the fearfull and mindless for personal profit.

Thank you.

Bob

Mr Mark
I'm not sure Hitchens can refute what she's saying here. She's not talking about flat-earthism or rejecting other groups, but about community, culture and ritual -- freed from coercion.

Dear Julia -

I suggest you read Mr Hitchens' book. It refutes what you have written in spades.

Julia,

You are where it's at.