The Hope of Sufism

MODERATOR/WEBMASTER
it sure would be nice if these comments were displayed in the opposite order for continuity - with the newest comments at the bottom.

dblakeross,
yes, congratultions, you've unmasked me and my agenda. and of course i can't disprove god to you. it is logically impossible. there are certain conceptions of god which are...well...EXTREMELY unlikely...

so, i showed you mine, will you show me yours? (then we'll get back to our conversation about "good verses" in the koran)
1)are you muslim?
2)is the earth closer to 6000 or 4.5 billion years old?

gratefulseeker,
________________________________

[2:136] Medina
Say ye: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the descendents (children of Jacob) and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam).
____________________--
i say:
again, how is this tolerant?
_________________________________
[9:71] Medina
The Believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practice regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His Mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.
______________________________
i say:
yet again, this tells muslims to be good to each other - not be good to atheists, buddhists etc...
_____________________________________
[33:35] Medina
For Muslim men and women – for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give to charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah’s praise – for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.
___________________________
i say:
same, though it's nice they mention "women"... hardly makes up for the "women are men's possessions" verses.
_____________________________
[40:40] Mecca
“He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed – whether man or woman- and is a Believer – such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): therein will they have abundance without measure.
____________________________
i say:
again....only directed towards believers. it is very illustrative that you consider these tolerant verses, but i see them as mostly devisive.

[49:13] Medina
....that ye may know each other not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things).
________________________________
i say:
yeah...that seems ok..."know each other" "not despise" each other... heavily dependent on what "righteous" means to you. (note that it probably means "belief in allah"). hardly makes up for the bad verses i quoted below.
__________________________________

[30:22] Mecca
And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know.
______________________________
i say:
what does this have to do with plurality and getting along and being nice?
_________________________________

[2:4&5] Medina
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter. They are on (true guidance), from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
__________________________
i say:
this is a DEVISIVE verse - separating those "who believe in the Revelation" from the rest of us.
_____________________________

[29:46] Mecca
And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury); but say, “We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).
_____________________________
i say:
again, this is DEVISIVE. muslims think it's tolereant because they're putting up with "people of the book" - jews and christians. what about ATHIESTS? buddhists? everybody else? furthermore, "dhimmitude" is not tolerance.

Fine. So now we know that you are an Atheist with an agenda to disprove Islam, let me ask you one additional question:

Can you disprove the reality of God to me?

Part 1 (Sufism):
Sufism is the mystical journey of love in which the seeker (the lover) experiences God (the Beloved, Truth, Knowledge, Wisdom) directly without intercession. Only by the seeker’s arduous and life-long effort of self-purification, or psychological transformation, will the seeker get to realize God. Turning inward to purify the self includes moving away from the ego and its worldly attachments, and confronting one’s own negative qualities (the shadow) that have been pushed into the unconscious. The transformation is carried out largely through remembrance of God, meditation and prayer. Certain verses in the Qur’an have formed the fabric of Sufism. Here is a sample:

[24:35] Medina
Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche and within it a Lamp: the Lamp enclosed in Glass; the glass as it were a brilliant star: lit from a blessed Tree, an Olive, neither of the East nor of the West, whose Oil is well-nigh Luminous, though fire scarce touched it: Light upon Light! Allah doth guide whom He will to His light: Allah doth set forth Parables for men: and Allah doth know all things.

[17:44] Mecca
The seven heavens and the earth, and all beings therein, declare His glory: There is not a thing but celebrates His praise: and yet ye understand not how they declare His glory! Verily He is Oft-Forbearing, most Forgiving!

[112:1-4] Mecca
Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; and there is none Like Unto Him.

[76:2&3] Medina
Verily We created man from a drop of mingled sperm, in order to try him: so we gave him (the gifts) of Hearing and Sight. We showed him the Way: whether he be grateful or ungrateful (rests on his will).

[2:186] Medina
When My servants ask thee concerning Me, I am indeed close (to them): I listen to the prayer of every Suppliant when he calleth on Me: let them also, with a will, listen to My call, and believe in Me: that they may walk in the right way.

[50:16] Mecca
It was We Who created man, and We know what dark suggestions his soul makes to him: for We are nearer to him than (his) jugular vein.

[2:152] Medina
Then do ye remember Me; I will remember you. Be grateful to Me, and reject not Faith.

(To be continued in Part 2)

gratefulseeker,
do you know arabic?

if so, what's your "favorite" english translation?
1)which reflects the original arabic most accurately?
2)which comes across as the "nicest"? or the "meanest"?

gratefulseeker,
thanks! i'll look through those, study their context, and get back to you. thanks again for the reply - and so quick!

Part 2 (Sufism):
[41:53] Mecca
Soon will We show them Our Signs in the (furthest) regions (of the earth), and in their own souls, until it becomes manifest to them that this is the Truth. Is it not enough that thy Lord doth witness all things?

[42:51] Mecca
It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration; or from behind a veil, or by sending of a Messenger to reveal with Allah’s permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.

[13-28] Medina
“Those who believe, and whose hearts find satisfaction in the remembrance of Allah: for without doubt in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find satisfaction.

[89:27-30] Mecca
(To the righteous soul will be said:) “O (thou) soul, in (complete) rest and satisfaction! Come back thou to thy Lord – well pleased (thyself), and well-pleasing unto Him! Enter thou, then, among my Devotees! Yea, enter thou My Heaven!”

[2:115] Medina
To Allah belong the East and the West: whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah’s countenance. For Allah is All-Embracing, All-knowing.

[50:33&34] Mecca
“Who feared (Allah) Most Gracious unseen, and brought a heart turned in devotion (to him): Enter ye therein in Peace and Security; this is a Day of Eternal Life!”

[103:1-3] Mecca
By (the Token of) Time (through the Ages), verily Man is in loss, except such as have Faith, and do righteous deeds, and (join together) in the mutual teaching of Truth, and of Patience and Constancy.

[55:26-28] Medina
All that is on earth will perish: but will abide (forever) the Face of thy Lord – full of Majesty, Bounty and Honour. Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?

Salvation, or unification, takes place in the heart (Light upon Light), is possible in this life, and accessible to everyone regardless of religious affiliation. These verses corroborate Karen Armstrong’s statement, “The Sufis reflect the profound and inspiring pluralism of the Qur’an and all faiths could do with an infusion of this acknowledgement of our common humanity.”

Here is a sample of verses, from Mecca and Medina periods, that inspire pluralism. All translations are from Yusuf Ali’s volume, for unlike Pickthall’s, it provides helpful notes, commentaries and historical background.

[49:13] Medina
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other not that ye may despise (each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things).

[30:22] Mecca
And among His Signs is the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the variations in your languages and your colours: verily in that are Signs for those who know.

[2:4&5] Medina
And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter. They are on (true guidance), from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.

[29:46] Mecca
And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury); but say, “We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; our God and your God is One; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam).

[2:136] Medina
Say ye: “We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma’il, Isaac, Jacob, and the descendents (children of Jacob) and that given to Moses and Jesus and that given to (all) Prophets from their Lord: we make no difference between one and another of them: and we bow to Allah (in Islam).

[9:71] Medina
The Believers, men and women, are protectors, one of another: they enjoin what is just, and forbid what is evil: they observe regular prayers, practice regular charity, and obey Allah and His Messenger. On them will Allah pour His Mercy: for Allah is Exalted in power, Wise.

[33:35] Medina
For Muslim men and women – for believing men and women, for devout men and women, for true men and women, for men and women who are patient and constant, for men and women who humble themselves, for men and women who give to charity, for men and women who fast (and deny themselves), for men and women who guard their chastity, and for men and women who engage much in Allah’s praise – for them has Allah prepared forgiveness and great reward.

[40:40] Mecca
“He that works evil will not be requited but by the like thereof: and he that works a righteous deed – whether man or woman- and is a Believer – such will enter the Garden (of Bliss): therein will they have abundance without measure.

gratefulseeker,
i referenced 2:106.

what's your point? is "abrogation" valid? seems like from the two commentaries you quote that a verse CAN be abrogated, if needed - if the "exegesis" require it.

dblakeross, you asked,
"Do you deny the Truth of Islam?
Do you deny the God revealed to the Prophet of Islam?"
___________________________
YES!
_____________________________
dblakeross, you asked,
"Are you atheist, agnostic or something else"
________________________
atheist.

To begin with, the term “abrogate” is found in verse [2:106] not in [2:105] as reported before.

Clearly, verse [2:106] is not a stand-alone verse – it dovetails the preceding verse [2:105]. The two verses must be reviewed together as complimentary verses to arrive at the correct meaning.

Pickthall [2:105]
Neither those who disbelieve among the People of Scripture nor the idolaters love that there should be sent down unto you any good thing from your Lord. But Allah chooseth for His mercy whom he will, and Allah is of infinite bounty.

Pickthall [2:106]
Such of Our revelations as We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?

Two sources, separated by about 700 years, will be cited to show the historical explanation of the two verses.

In the “Meaning of the Holy Qur’an,” a widely used translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali (1872-1953), the meaning of verse [2:106] is given in note 107:

“… What is the meaning here? If we take it in a general sense, it means that Allah’s Message from age to age is always the same, but that its form may differ according to the needs and exigencies of the time. That form was different as given to Moses and then to Jesus and then to Muhammad. …”

Ibn Arabi (1165-1240) is specific as to who is empowered to make changes to God’s signs (revelations). In the towering volumes of “Al-futuhat al-makiyya,” (Meccan Revelations) Ibn Arabi explains the meaning of every verse in the Qur’an. In about the middle of chapter 343 (could not find an English translation of the chapter to reference) he explains that over the ages God decides who amongst his Prophets, Messengers, and Friends (Saints) he commands to abrogate previous revelations, cause to forget, and bring forth similar or better ones.

And a follow-up question Walter, if you will kindly explain your religious faith.
Are you atheist, agnostic or something else. Please explain and keep your answers short please since I have noticed brevity is not a natural trait with you and I would like to remain focused on the subject.

I will in turn answer any question you care to ask once I have some forthcoming and straight answers from you on these fundamentals.

Thanks

And 'help me out' Walter, since you are SOOOOOOOOO concerned with the truth and understanding other points of view...

just answer yes or no, please don't evade the question.

Walter

I rarely engage religious bigots, but for the sake of truth alone, I will indulge you a little.

Before we get to a rehash of all the old issues which are quite boring and easily dismissed, let me ask you a question for a change:

Do you deny the Truth of Islam?
Do you deny the God revealed to the Prophet of Islam?

Yes or no?

dblakeross,
PART 1 (of 3)

i appreciate your giving me scriptural back-up for your statements. it is my contention that the “good verses” you quote were (or, can be if needed) abrogated, i.e., superseded, by later bad verses.

**for those interested, here’s list of the koran chapters in chronological order: http://www.wikiislam.com/wiki/Chronological_Order_of_the_Quran **

the koran itself allows contradictory interpretations. verses 6:34, 6:115, and 18:27 say you can’t change a verse, whereas 2:106 and 16:101 say you can:

2:106:
PICKTHAL: Nothing of our revelation (even a single verse) do we abrogate or cause be forgotten, but we bring (in place) one better or the like thereof. Knowest thou not that Allah is Able to do all things?

16:101:
PICKTHAL: And when We put a revelation in place of (another) revelation, - and Allah knoweth best what He revealeth - they say: Lo! thou art but inventing. Most of them know not.

i chose the "pickthal" translation, but yusufali’s and others are similar. this shows that the koran itself allows (requires?) abrogation. note also that since chapters 2 and 16 come after 6 and 18, chronologically, according to the doctrine of abrogation, the doctrine of abrogation abrogates the verses from chapters 6 and 18. i know this is circular reasoning, but it’s the kind of thing religious scholars do.

dblakeross,
PART 2:

islamic scholars and commentators (authors of the hadith) DO disagree about abrogation:

(http://www.meforum.org/1754/peace-or-jihad-abrogation-in-islam and http://www.islamreview.com/articles/quransdoctrineprint.htm )

this fact allows at least some muslims, with scriptural justification, to use that horrible chapter 9, the second-to-last chapter written, especially 9:5, to be mean to non-muslims.

9:5:
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

9:13-14:
PICKTHAL: Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers. Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.
(the “solemn pledge” here is the pledge to be muslim...)

9:29:
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.

9:73:
PICKTHAL: O Prophet! Strive against the disbelievers and the hypocrites! Be harsh with them. Their ultimate abode is hell, a hapless journey's end.

9:123:
PICKTHAL: O ye who believe! Fight those of the disbelievers who are near to you, and let them find harshness in you, and know that Allah is with those who keep their duty (unto Him).

dblakeross,
PART 3:

so, the “good verses” (“no complulsion”, “let him who please disbelieve”, “argue with them in the best manner” etc....), in the minds of enough muslims that it’s a problem, are abrogated by “bad verses” like the above-referenced ones and others like:

47:4:
PICKTHAL: Now when ye meet in battle those who disbelieve, then it is smiting of the necks until, when ye have routed them, then making fast of bonds; and afterward either grace or ransom till the war lay down its burdens. That (is the ordinance). And if Allah willed He could have punished them (without you) but (thus it is ordained) that He may try some of you by means of others. And those who are slain in the way of Allah, He rendereth not their actions vain.

8:12:
PICKTHAL: When thy Lord inspired the angels, (saying): I am with you. So make those who believe stand firm. I will throw fear into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Then smite the necks and smite of them each finger.
4:89:

PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them.

these "bad verses" came after the "good" verses you quote. so at best they represent simple contradictions and at worst they are calls to outer jihad.

you talk about muslims “fair” treatment of “people the book” (jews and christians). “people of the book” are NOT treated as equals. they are subdued citizens, dhimmis, kind of like a lower-class indian caste. this is to say nothing of garden-variety pagans, polytheists and atheists – who are to be driven off or killed. such is the 7th century bigotry captured in the koran that muslims are to distinguish between “kinds” of non-muslims.... that muslims put up with the existence of people of the book is supposed to represent tolerance?! sheesh...

the presence of these horrible sentiments (which are very much in line with the old testament, and present though toned-down in the new testament) are evidence enough that the koran (and other judeochrislamic scripture) IS NOT inspired by god - at least not by any god worthy of worship.

it's true there are many muslims who don't behave intolerantly. they do this by ignoring the "bad parts" and living by the "good parts" of the koran. this is very enlightened and laudable. i guess we should be pleased by the results of a recent (~2005?) pew poll showing that "only" 20% of muslims in america support suicide (should be "religious homicide, actually) bombing.... the percentages were much higher overseas.

and what are we to make of “taqiyya”?

Bismillah...

Re Defending the Qur'an against those who quote arbitrary or select translations:

(God instructs Prophet Mohammad)
Sura 15 Verses 89-95:
"And say: 'I am indeed he that warneth openly and without ambiguity,'- (Of just such wrath) as We sent down on those who divided (Scripture into arbitrary parts),-
(So also on such) as have made Qur'an into shreds (as they please). Therefore, by the Lord, We will, of a surety, call them to account, For all their deeds. Therefore expound openly what thou art commanded, and turn away from those who join false gods with Allah. For sufficient are We unto thee against those who scoff,- "

Re Proving the Truth of the Holy Qur'an to doubters

Sura 15 Verses 10-15:
"We did send messengers before thee amongst the religious sects of old:

But never came a messenger to them but they mocked him.

Even so do we let it creep into the hearts of the sinners -

That they should not believe in the (Message); but the ways of the ancients have passed away.

Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein,

They would only say: 'Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery.'"

Re: Toleration by Muslims to non believers

Sura 31 Verse 15-19
"But if they strive to make thee join in worship with Me things of which thou hast no knowledge, obey them not; yet bear them company in this life with justice (and consideration), and follow the way of those who turn to me (in love): in the end the return of you all is to Me, and I will tell you the truth (and meaning) of all that ye did."

"O my son!" (said Luqman), "If there be (but) the weight of a mustard-seed and it were (hidden) in a rock, or (anywhere) in the heavens or on earth, Allah will bring it forth: for Allah understands the finest mysteries, (and) is well-acquainted (with them).

"O my son! establish regular prayer, enjoin what is just, and forbid what is wrong: and bear with patient constancy whatever betide thee; for this is firmness (of purpose) in (the conduct of) affairs.

"And swell not thy cheek (for pride) at men, nor walk in insolence through the earth; for Allah loveth not any arrogant boaster.

"And be moderate in thy pace, and lower thy voice; for the harshest of sounds without doubt is the braying of the ass."

DBLAKEROSS wrote:
"La illaha illa 'lah"

This is the sound you make when you put your fingers in your ears and pretend you're not listening isn't it? Hmmm.

dblakeross,
thanks for the reply, but i didn't see a "good" koran verse in there.

like others, you have TOLD me there are good things in there, but offer NO examples. when i try to find "good stuff" i keep getting tripped up by things like

004.089
PICKTHAL: They long that ye should disbelieve even as they disbelieve, that ye may be upon a level (with them). So choose not friends from them till they forsake their homes in the way of Allah; if they turn back (to enmity) then take them and kill them wherever ye find them, and choose no friend nor helper from among them,

and

009.005
PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful
(simply put: tolerate non-muslims if they become muslim)

and

009.029
PICKTHAL: Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that which Allah hath forbidden by His messenger, and follow not the Religion of Truth, until they pay the tribute readily, being brought low.
(simply put: this is dhimmitude - don't kill non-muslims who are willing to live as second-class citizens).

it is heartwarming to learn that a muslim man should not beat his wife unless she REALLY deserves it:

004.034
PICKTHAL: Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart, and scourge them. Then if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High, Exalted, Great.

are we to be awed by allah's wisdom when he counsels muslims not to kill their own children just to avoid poverty?
017.031
PICKTHAL: Slay not your children, fearing a fall to poverty, We shall provide for them and for you. Lo! the slaying of them is great sin.

how bad were things that this verse was even necessary?

there are countless others like that. please, CAN YOU OFFER ME A "GOOD" (non-superseded) VERSE?

There are no ugly Verses in the Holy Qur'an. Only ugly readers. Your premise is wrong Walt and your views are obviously warped.

Ask a real question. I have one for example: why do you hate something you don't even understand, Walt?

dblakeross and ALL ISLAM APOLOGISTS,

HELP!!!!

i've been asking this question over and over (apologies to those who've seen it) on various threads, but still no answer:

are there verses you can quote from the koran (that were not later superseded by the ugly medina verses) and hadith that promote tolerance, fairness, equality, freedom of religion, self-determination etc...?
please, i would really like to know.

No amount of hating on Islam can do the least amount of harm to Islam or Sufism. No christian fundamentalism, zionism or know-it-all atheism (solved the secrets of the universe by sticking his head in the sand) can leave the least stain.

So cry and spit all you want, haters. You are what you do.

La illaha illa 'lah

Is Karen Armstrong hoping that the Unitarians can redeem Christianity as well?

Sufism might be good but atheism is better.

No need to believe anything that makes no sense. No need to do anything irrational. No need to pray to anything unreal. No need to tie oneself in knots trying to understand why one's reality doesn't jibe with one's superstition. No need to be scared of dying and going to Hell; or worse - dying and going to Heaven.

Celebrate the real, which is all we know.

Without contesting what Dr. Armstrong wrote about Sufism, I'll focus on one phrase: "the profound and inspiring pluralism of the Qur'an."

"Pluralism" and "Qur'an" can be used rationally in the same sentence only if one ignores (1) the claim of Islam -- in the Qur'an -- that is the one, final, perfect statement of God's truth and God's commands, and (2) the doctrine of abrogation (sura 2.105), which conveniently holds that later-written suras override or supersede contradictory statements in earlier suras. It's the doctrine of abrogation that allows sura 9.5 ("Slay the idolaters wherever you find them") to cancel dozens of suras from the Meccan period that command people to be tolerant, peaceful and patient.

Until Muslims do about 700 years of catching up and learn to do non-literalist cherry picking from scripture (as Christians do), this is going to remain THE central problem for Muslims (and for determining who has the "right" to speak for the ummah, if there is only one Muslim community).

Sufis, Shiites, Sunnis- they all suffer from the same flawed and error- filled history and theology of Islam.

To wit: (for Karen Armstrong's eyes only)

Mohammed was an illiterate, womanizing, lust and greed-driven, warmongering, hallucinating Arab, who also had embellishing/hallucinating/plagiarizing scribal biographers who not only added "angels"/"pretty, wingie, talking thingies" and flying chariots to the koran but also a militaristic agenda to support the plundering and looting of the lands of non-believers.

This agenda continues as shown by the massacre in Mumbai, the assassinations of Bhutto and Theo Van Gogh, the conduct of the seven Muslim doctors in the UK, the 9/11 terrorists, the 24/7 Sunni suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the 24/7 Shiite suicide/roadside/market/mosque bombers, the Islamic bombers of the trains in the UK and Spain, the Bali crazies, the Kenya crazies, the Pakistani “koranics”, the Palestine suicide bombers/rocketeers, the Lebanese nutcases, the Taliban nut jobs, and the Filipino “koranics”.

And who funds this muck and stench of terror?

The warmongering, Islamic, Shiite terror and torture theocracy of Iran aka the Third Axis of Evil and also the Sunni "Wannabees" of Saudi Arabia.

Current crises:

The Sunni-Shiite blood feud and the warmongering, womanizing (11 wives), hallucinating founder.

ms. armstrong, others,

i have asked this question 3 times over on mr. rauf's thread about sharia, but have not recieved an answer. can anyone here help me?

are there verses you can quote from the koran (that were not later superseded by the ugly medina verses) and hadith that promote tolerance, fairness, equality, freedom of religion, self-determination etc...?
please, i would really like to know.

if there any are such "good" verses, do any of those verses survive the revision/commentary/interpretation of the hadiths without being turned into a "kill the infidel" type of sentiment?

ms armstrong,
i've enjoyed your writings for a while now, and have been intrigued by sufism ever since learning of it a few years ago. i too see it as the best hope for a peaceful world with islam in it. but, i also think "regular" muslims disdain sufists in the way christian fundamentalists disdain "metaphorical" interpreters of the bible. i.e., regular muslims don't think of sufis as "real" muslims.