Riding the Pendulum

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I’ll give you my abreviated life story, since I’ve been working on the long version for about 10 years and it’s still not done.

- born into a mixed marriage. Father jack Mormon, mom, never mo - both agnostic & very liberal.

- Grandparents from a long line of Mormons going back to England back in the early days of Mormonism. Which made me something like 6th generation Mormon, sort of.

- Grandparents saw to it that I was baptized when I was 8, even though it meant nothing to me.

- Sporadically attended Mormon church growing up, but my very libreal parents didn’t really care one way or another if we went.

- found my parents agnostic, liberal, suburban whitebread existence pretty meaningless and unfullfilling about the same time Alex Haley’s “Roots” hit TV.

-Decided I needed to get in touch with my roots, which to me, at the time, went clear back to Africa, Olduvi Gorge, the dawn of man, Austrolopithicus Africanus.

-Went to clear to Africa, hitchhiking most of the way, via all over the US, North, South, East, West, Europe and N. Africa.

-Ended up on the Barbary Coast, Morocco.

-Asimilated into Morrocan society, clothes, speech, food, and naturally, religion.

-gained access to a Mosque via my Muslim brothers.

- epiphany- We’re no different, even though I was born in America as a “christian” I could have just as easily been born in Africa as a “Muslim”. We’re all children of the same god, we just worship god in a different way in different parts of the world. same god. Same water that flowed through the Mosque in Africa is connected to the water that flows through my father’s land in America. The earth we stand on, though on separate continents is connected beneath the water. The same moon, sun and stars that rise over Africa are the same moon, sun and stars that rise over my homeland. We’re not alien. We’re the same kind. Human kind. Transcend all the petty differences, religion, nationality, race, sex, sexual orientation and we’re all the same. Your struggles are my struggles. Your problems are my problems. We’re all one.

- came home. Again found my parents white bread agnostic, suburban existence pretty meaningless and unfullfilling.

- Sister got married in the Seattle Temple the week I got home from Africa and I wanted in. The fact that I wasn’t permitted made it even that more enticing and more of a challenge, like the mosque, I figured I’d have a similar spiritual experience inside the temple that I had inside the mosque.

- went to Evergreen, studied cultural anthropology.

- decided I needed something more “concrete” in my life and a real major and a real degree.

- Decided I ought to get in touch with my Mormon heritage in hopes it would unite my fractured family (half LDS half whatever)

- Started seriously taking steps to get into the temple. Cut my hair, got a shave, cleaned up my act, quit screwing around and smoking pot. Ended up going to the temple to find out it was nothing like my experiences in the Mosque, but I’d just sworn a blood oath to commit suicide rather than turn my back on my heritage. By this time I was mission bound for Australia.

- Mission, married, kids, fast forward 20 years and I’m a perfect peter penis holder, sealed in the temple, with 4 kids born under the covenant, called by god to be an architect.

- I go to the COB to inquire about a position as a church architect, designing temples. Something in the back of my mind tells me to think about it and resolve the issues I have in the back of my mind before committing myself to designing temples.
- I think about it.

- Kids start asking serious questions, which I figure deserve serious answers.

- After 9-11, I found answers.

- The religions where I’d misplaced my faith were barbaric traditions, delusions and frauds, developed to enslave and exploit people and dehumanize non-believers and justify our inhumanity towards our fellow men.

- I couldn’t in good conscience allow my children to be indoctrinated with the barbaric delusions I’d been indoctrinated with.

- While I still appreciate the spiritual experiences I’ve had, both as a Mormon and as a Muslim, the price of gaining those experiences is faaaar too steep, especially when they can be had for free.

- Now I find meaning in the natural, scientific, humanist, liberal world view I inheirited from my parents. Hopefully my children find enough meaning in that world view to avoid the pitfall of religious mental slavery.

When I left Mormonism after my entire 20 years of adulthood in the church, my PostMormon father asked me, “Why would you abandon a belief structure ...and replace it with a structure that could be even more faulty?"

At first that question pissed me off because I really felt like he didn't respect me as an adult to make decisions for my family. Then I took a deep breath and thought about it.

I told him, "It seems like you raised us without religion and we all turned out fine."

He pointed at the TV and said, "Well, then you're left with that to raise your kids."

I said, "That's BS. Somehow you raised us to have good morals and good ethics."

He said, "I just allowed you to make your own decisions and didn't interfere with you suffering the consequences, unless I thought they would be deadly."

I said, "Yeah, well that's my whole philosophy for raising kids too."

He said, "Well. OK then, just don't put anybody up on a pedestal."

@ Not Liberated,

See more about The Spirit State aka Heaven at www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM

With respect to "atonement" theology:

(from Professor Crossan's book, "Who is Jesus" co-authored with Richard Watts)

"Moreover, an atonement theology that says God sacrifices his own son in place of humans who needed to be punished for their sins might make some Christians love Jesus, but it is an obscene picture of God. It is almost heavenly child abuse, and may infect our imagination at more earthly levels as well. I do not want to express my faith through a theology that pictures God demanding blood sacrifices in order to be reconciled to us."

"Traditionally, Christians have said, 'See how Christ's passion was foretold by the prophets." Actually, it was the other way around. The Hebrew prophets did not predict the events of Jesus' last week; rather, many of those Christian stories were created to fit the ancient prophecies in order to show that Jesus, despite his execution, was still and always held in the hands of God."

"In terms of divine consistency, I do not think that anyone, anywhere, at any time, including Jesus, brings dead people back to life."

Ms Flake is a lovely lady,
and seemingly not a "flake" at all,

BUT
she sure don't provoke no discussion, do she?

Silent Worship

Norrie makes an excellent point that silence is often the best worship.

If, as Thomas Mann suggested, a religious sensibility consists in having a taste for the infinite,

what can one *say* about the infinite?

I believe that is why God's name was not spoken in olden times.

BTW norrie - yes, read The Master. Masterful.

yours truly
The Master

"There is no religion in the Spirit State aka Heaven. The Gate is open to anyone in good standing with or without the help of B16 or Latin Masses."

This is completely false.

First, Heaven is not a "spiritual state". The Saints in Heaven are currently there as spirits, however, after Christ's return, all people will be bodily resurrected and judged. Afterwards, all people will exist bodily in either Heaven or Hell.

Second, No person has any right or access to Heaven. By rights, all people would spend eternity in Hell. Jesus Christ came down from Heaven, was born as a man, and died on the cross, providing redemption and opening the gates of Heaven for mankind. No person who rejects Christ, who sins against Him, will enter into Heaven. Christ, through the Church, offers forgiveness for sins. But forgiveness will not be forthcoming for those who do not repent of their sins. Those who reject Christ's Church also reject Christ and will most certainly not be rewarded with Heaven.

You are correct however, in that latin masses are not required for salvation.

Professor Flake:

You wrote:

"It seems to me that understandable words (or any words at all) are not necessary to worship..."

I agree. I've found, and observed, that the most profound prayers and acts of worship are those that are utterly silent, both consciously and unconsciously.

Professor Flake:

You wrote:

"It seems to me that understandable words (or any words at all) are not necessary to worship..."

I agree. I've found, and observed, that the most profound prayers and acts of worship are those that are utterly silent, both consciously and unconsciously.

The important point:

There is no religion in the Spirit State aka Heaven. The Gate is open to anyone in good standing with or without the help of B16 or Latin Masses.

sorry- the post to veronica about the poor was from me, i went right to writing and didnt put my name in.

"Because God loves all people, those who love God must also love their neighbor. To help your neighbor in his physical needs is good and right, but to help your neighbor in his spiritual needs to the salvation of his soul is far more important."

So... trying to convert the malnourished who can't think so straight while cutting public funding to the poor is just win-win, ennit?

"The body will pass after a few short years,"

Yes, that's often the result.

Saying non-Christians can't love the poor, btw, especially while arguing poor people exist only for you to convert, is a) insulting and often defamatory, b) ignorant, (if nothing else, ever heard of Gandhi?) and c) Doesn't help the poor in any way whatsoever.

Somewhere on this blog it's been said that just thinking about http://www.hoax-buster.org makes the pope's head hurt. Could explain a lot including the return to the golden days of yesteryear.

You don't suppose the Bible is really a hoax? What does that mean to the pope's authority, Mat 18:18 being so much fiction? Pass the Excedrin to his holiness.

Veronica you couldn't have missed the mark more widley if you tried.
1) The apostles weren't showing concern for the poor in this question, but were concerned that Jesus was allowing the woman of ill-repute to fawn over him. It was a critique of her actions, not a statement about the poor.
Jesus' response was that they will have him for a short time, and the poor will always be there to be attended to.
2)As Jesus stated, "You saw me hungry and did not feed me..etc.
and when his disciples asked, Wehn did we do this?"
He replied,"When you do this to the least of my brothers you do this to me."
Serving the poor is not an alibi for lack of depth of love for Jesus- often it is an expression of that love.
Also many many throughout history and now have cared about te poor without any relation to Jesus at all.

This is a very loopy reasoning on your part.
It doesnt make sense form any perspective, christian or otherwise.

Go ask your priest or reverend.

Many contemporary NT exegetes are apostates, having left whatever faith they once had for effective atheism. They deny the doctrines of the Church, not because they have been (or can be) disproved, but simply because they do not wish to believe.

May The Blessed Virgin pray for them and for you, that both you and they will receive God's grace to repent and ask for His forgiveness - even at the very hour of death it is not too late.

Concerning the POOR, Jesus already cleared the issue. It was asked: "Why not sell the perfume and give the proceeds to the poor, instead of wasting it on Jesus' feet?" Service to the poor is an alibi for those who cannot loved Christ deeper. But know one can genuinely love the poor, unless he loves Jesus.

Say what George?????

Many contemporary NT exegetes would disagree with your comment about Jesus instituting a church. Scripture references are vague and many passages used by my Catholic Church to prove its the one and only church fails the tests of attestations and times of publication.

Yes, Jesus did wish to help the poor, as should every Christian. But Jesus wanted even more to help the sinner.

The words "saving souls" is not in the least ambiguous. Those persons who die, having rejected God and his commandments, in a state of mortal sin, condemn themselves to an eternity of physical and spiritual torment in Hell. The souls of these persons are lost.

Those persons who desire to follow God and to obey His commandments; who believe His revelation, repent of their sins, and seek His graces; and who thus, although they are unworthy, receive His forgiveness, are justified in His sight, are made immaculate. They who die in such a state are rewarded with eternal life in Heaven, and remain in the presence of God for all eternity. The souls of these persons are saved.

This is the greatest desire of Jesus Christ, that all people will have eternal life with him in Heaven. Because God loves all people, those who love God must also love their neighbor. To help your neighbor in his physical needs is good and right, but to help your neighbor in his spiritual needs to the salvation of his soul is far more important.

The body will pass after a few short years, but the soul endures forever.

Say what George?:

What good is attempting to "save souls" (a vague concept at best) if we as a society allow our fellow man to rot in a world of war, disease & poverty with little or no healthcare when we easily have the resources to help them?

Sorry, but Jesus was all about helping the poor and disenfrachised.

George, the Catholic Church was instituted by Our Lord for ONE AND ONLY ONE purpose - to save souls!

Your list of "peace and social justice" issues are tangential, if not completely irrelevant, to the mission and purpose of the church.

While I would personally hope that all people would be able to receive at least a minimum standard of health care, it is actually far better for a person to die of neglect on the street and go to Heaven than to receive abundant free medical attention and then end up in Hell.

Better to drown in a global-warming-induced hurricane and go to Heaven than live a long, pleasant life free of hunger, poverty, and oppression only to end up in Hell.

Christ promised us, if we love him, we will suffer. God gives us crosses to bear so that we can gain rewards in Heaven through our perseverance and love for Him. If our Bishops were more concerned about saving souls and less interested in saving face, the Catholic Church would be in much better condition today.

Professor Flake & I have a few things in common:
we like Latin, Gregorian Chant and "smells
and bells". But come on, my fellow Catholics,
wake up and smell the incense! The Latin
Mass is all about nostalgia, and nothing more!
We've a wonderful Tanzanian priest in our
inner-city San Francisco parish, who tells
us that the Latin Mass is a "non-issue" on the
Africa continent, as the faithful there
a just struggling for survival, whilst dealing with HIV/AIDS, famine & genocide. Closer
to home, our own faith community, the US
Catholic Church ought to be more concerned with
peace and social justice issues, such as
the death penalty, the war in Iraq, poverty,
health-care for the un-insured, and the
environment (to name a few!) I firmly
believe that the revival of the Latin mass
was done to appease the schismatic Lefebvrites
and reward them for 40 years of bad behavior.

Many of my most moving prayer moments and experiences have involved "nigunim", chant-like repetitions of traditional religious melodies (mostly of Hasidic origin, reappropriated within the havurah/Jewish renewal world), some with a short, evocative Hebrew phrase (which becomes a form of "mantra"), some wordless, typically creating a powerful mystical union among a community of worshippers, whatever their efficacy in communicating with the divine.

It is sometimes suggested that nigunim have words, when they do, only (or mostly) to help us remember the tunes, which are sacred.

Words, beyond the evocative or imagistic phrase, are all too often a distraction from prayerful intent/devotion (kavanna and d'vekut), even when they do not invite me to proclaim sentiments that I do not believe, and often do not want to make myself try to believe.

Mutatis mutandis: Jewish prayer operates within its own distinctive theological sphere, somewhat parallel but not identical to that of Catholic and other Christian prayer.

Actually it was the God Neptune who created the Tridentine mass of Adamantine metal. He formed it into his magical trident, which He used to impale those who arrived late at His Tridentine Mass.

Makes as much sense as most religious doctrines, n'est ce pas?

Let's enrich the Paul VI form of the one Roman rite with the orientation, sacredness and beauty of the old form. It must come from the grass roots level. Children of God unite!

My only misgiving in this whole matter is that the Holy Eucharist, instituted by Christ as a sacrament of Charity and communion, is being turned into an instrument of disharmony and hate, whether endorsed by proponents of 1962 or of Vatican II. May God have mercy on us all!

A - you obviously did not read the motu proprio as the Novus Ordo is still the mass of the Church

B - As someone else said, Latin is the language of the Latin rite and the Novus Ordo and all communications are written in the Latin. But being a Professor of Religious History you knew that - obviously not!

C - Your comment "Sacred Congregation of the Universal Inquisition" is out of line and disrespectful to the Holy Father. As a Catholic I also find it a backhanded bash as you try to stir up memories of the Inquisition. Being a Professor of Religious History, you know that the common view of the Inquisition greatly exaggerates the Churches role - obviously not

C - Not being Catholic, I don't know how you would know that the horse is out of the barn. Where is your research - have you spoken with many Catholics? I would dare say no as most of what you have written in this article lacks research.

The Pope is giving Mass goers two options. Isn't that nice? Those who want deeper expressions of worship can attend the Latin Mass, those who want english can attend the Novus Ordo. If your're in a hurry, go to the fast mass, if you have enough time, go to the other. You don't want white? Choose black. My goodness, this Pope is smarter than you think.

Allowing the Latin mass was a good way to make some people happy without bothering the rest too much. I hope this means the music ministers will be encouraged to go with more traditional music, even in the regular Sunday masses.

Thank you dear Holy Father for lifting the restrictions on the traditional Latin Mass. May God bless you! The Mass is the sacrifice of Jesus on the Cross...Jesus re-presents Himself to the Father for our sins at every Mass. And the traditional Latin Mass represents this "Holy Sacrifice" in a clearer and more distinct manner than the modern "Novus Ordo" Mass.
So, what comes to mind when I reflect on this new directive of the Pope given on 7/7/07?
"And Jesus said to them, I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven" (Luke 10:18").

The banter of the uninformed is deafening. The vernacular Mass hasn't been abolished, and secondly, if lay Catholics and clergy want Mass in Latin, why shouldn't they be allowed to do so.

Vatican II decreed that Latin was to remain the language of the Latin rites and that special permission could be granted to use the vernacular.

There hasn't been, and there will not be, a rollback of permission to use the vernacular. Latin is the language of the Latin Church, just as Greek is the language of the Greek Church.

Pope Benedict XVI wants to restore decorum to the New Rite, such that it shares a similar sense of the sacred found in the old, not to mention what is found in the rites of the Eastern Churches that recognize papal authority.

Pope Benedict did not make the Tridentine Mass the preferred mass. In fact he made it the exception (extraordinary in circumstance). Parishioners can request it and the priest no longer has to receive permission from the Bishop. The preferred (ordinary) mass is still in the local language.

The Latin mass that we remember is also associated with more ornate architecture, art, music, and even incense. The senses were overwhelmed by all of the beauty working together. But, when incense and older music is brought into a modern church design, it feels disjunct and even disturbing (picture Gregorian chants without echoing).

Our remembrance is skewed by the fact that we until now could view the Latin mass only in the most beautiful cathedrals. Bringing Latin to the mostly smaller local parishes will not do much to help parishioners gain deeper understanding or greater appreciation for the Eucharist. If we can't have the full beauty of the larger, more ornate churches, we are forced to rely on words to help the congregation see the full beauty of the Eucharist.

To both those who would have us roll back Vatican II and those who cannot tolerate the beauties of the old style, this decision will not satisfy. It does seek to center the pendulum

Anonymous:
I am curious about your depiction. While I was raised during the immediate transition between the Latin Mass and the new vernacular, I can see the appeal for either. Additionally, I too see a resurgence of younger people who are attracted to the Latin Mass, but I would disagree with the sense that the larger percentage of Catholics--at least American Catholics, would be those young or old that prefer the Latin Mass.
More importantly though, as a person who works in a Catholic parish, my interests in this topic are pastoral and educational. How does the Latin Mass deepen one's understanding of sacraments, church doctrine, issues of social justice, discipleship and mission. Not just as a matter of one's own personal preference, but in terms of practicality of handing on the faith to one's children and future generations?
I'm curious at any rate.

Anonymous:
I am curious about your depiction. While I was raised during the immediate transition between the Latin Mass and the new vernacular, I can see the appeal for either. Additionally, I too see a resurgence of younger people who are attracted to the Latin Mass, but I would disagree with the sense that the larger percentage of Catholics--at least American Catholics, would be those young or old that prefer the Latin Mass.
More importantly though, as a person who works in a Catholic parish, my interests in this topic are pastoral and educational. How does the Latin Mass deepen one's understanding of sacraments, church doctrine, issues of social justice, discipleship and mission. Not just as a matter of one's own personal preference, but in terms of practicality of handing on the faith to one's children and future generations?
I'm curious at any rate.

There's no nostalgia involved, I never saw a Latin Mass until a few years ago being too young until I stepped into a church out of curiosity and was hooked. I started going to church after a 15 year absence. The new Mass has no religious appeal, especially for those of us who are younger. That's also something I like about the old Mass. Paradoxically, most of the worshippers at the "Tridentine" Latin Mass are young, the vast majority at the new masses are gray heads. As they die off, those who prefer the traditional mass who become and even larger percentage of Catholics.