Little Boxes, Big Promises

Great article Kathleen,

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day-Saints. Interestingly enough, we are glad to explain our theology and doctrinal principles with the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants and Pearl of Great price: the "new" scriptures you mentioned.

The fact is the Book of Mormon is not as well known by Christians of other denominations, and I dare say, it's misunderstood and discredited. (Although the Library of Congress has ranked the Book of Mormon in the top 25 "Most Influential Books.")

Members of the LDS church can explain our beliefs with the New Testament, or with The Book of Mormon. I suppose I'm not understanding your comment that, "As they are wont to do, the Latter-day Saints avoid the theological debate with new scripture."

Again, your perception of the LDS church is mostly correct, and I look forward to your explanation of the statement I'm wondering about...

Ms. Flake,

Hate to start with an editorial comment, but I simply cannot believe that you used this contraction in your writing "Does it’s insistence...". Aaargh! You should know better. And to the commenter named "consider", you are simply mistaken - Christ said that He would rise on the "third day" (see Matt 16:21, 17:23, 20:19, etc. etc. etc.) EVERY other instance in the New Testament where the term "three days" or "three nights" is used is a quote of someone else. Christ Himself only ever used the term "third day". So, let's try your calculation again: Christ is crucified on Friday (the FIRST day), His body is placed in the tomb before sundown because the Jewish Sabbath starts then. His body lies in the tomb for all of Saturday (the SECOND day), because it is the Sabbath and, according to Jewish Law, no work can be performed. On SUNDAY (the THIRD day), Mary arrives to complete the preparation of Christ's body and finds an empty tomb wherein an angel says to her "He is not here, for He is risen, as HE said" (on the THIRD day). What an amazing thing to have happened! CHRIST said He would rise on the "third day" and He did! Everyone else who said "three days" and/or "three nights" was mis-interpreting His words (which seems to have been a continuing problem for the last 2000 years). Hopefully that will clarify your math for you, and Ms. Flake, I know we all make mistakes, but mistaking ITS and IT'S? Sigh...

What it means to be a Christian is to be a true follower of Jesus Christ as He worships God. He was one with God, meaning his words and will were the same with the Father, but he also said, "My Father is greater than I" and "I go to my God and your God". We are to be one with God and Christ, the will and word of God.

What Christians including Mormons have not understood is that they are not following the words of God through the prophets including Jesus. In the Bible and Book of Mormon Jesus said "I am he that gave the law". God said "add not nor diminish from My word". To Joshua He said, "Go not to the right or the left". The only one who was to come and turn us from God's word was to be a false prophet. Deuteronomy 13.

God gave feasts, the ten commandments including the 7th day sabbath of no work for anyone, extra sabbaths during feasts and they determined who were God's people and who would be cut off from His people and the holy city of righteousness here and in the hereafter.

The "Jews" Children of Israel cannot accept the Jesus of Christianity; but they can accept the Jesus of Scriptures because it is plain to see he fulfills promises of his coming. Had they or we followed his word, it would have changed the government and the world.. it is the same now.

The Passover ordinance in Exodus 12 says it is forever and clearly shows Jesus as the Passover lamb. There can be no resurrection day without the slaying of the Passover lamb symbolized by the crucifixion of Jesus Christ.

The Holy Scriptures show the connection of Passover with the time that Abraham expected to sacrifice his only Isaac, the son through the promise. Isaac was his second son, but the only son he had available, since his first son Ishmael was sent away with the mother. Isaac asked, "where is the lamb for the burnt offering?" and Abraham said, "God will provide Himself a lamb.." God intervened with a ram to offer instead of Abraham's son.

Most do not realize how profound the statement was, "God will provide Himself a lamb.." Consider that John the Baptist said of Jesus, "Behold, the lamb of God which takes away the sin of the world." In medical science it is known that the blood is passed down through the father. Jesus had no father, being born of a virgin. The blood shed on Calvery was God's pure blood. God said, "The life is in the blood." The blood was the life of God; God had provided Himself a lamb. Consider also, if Jesus came speaking of the sports of the day or business at a carpentry shop, no one would have crucified him; but he came with the word of God, another confirmation that God was crucified on the cross... that was why Jesus felt forsaken. It was prophesied that it crucifixion would happen, so it was the will of God that it happened because in all cases His word must be found to be true.

To be a true Christian is to "live by every word of God" through all His prophets. Our being resurrected to a new lifestyle here, now, and in eternity depends on it.

But, we academics are category folk: we box things in to examine them more closely.

Are you sure about your assumption?

Salvation is a broad term for many faithful believers called Christians and other noted religions, which professes a deity.

The vast difference between what you called Mormonism and Christianity, is a simple prayer. They simply believe the Godhead still talks and walks with men and women today.

The proof? It is a personal one and can be achieved.

www.lds.net

I agree with Prof Flake that there is a box involved in the question, "Are Mormons Christian?" In fact, there are several boxes involved, depending on who is asked determines the box.
Recently, the Pope declared that only the Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox are "true churches of Christ." This is a box that he chose to establish. In this scenario, Protestants cannot claim to be true Christians, as they are heretics from the true faith of Roman Catholicism. Protestants and Mormons are outside this box. But does this mean Protestants cannot use the name, "Christian"?
As it is, Mormons would fit into an "other" category, since they did not fall away in protest from the RC, so are not heretics. LDS are a Restorationist Christian Church, claiming a sacerdotal lineage that circumvents the Roman Catholic church and goes back to early apostolic times. It has been suggested that Mormonism could be considered a 4th Abrahamic religious tradition (along with Judaism, Islam, and traditional Christianity).
The box that precludes Mormons from the term "Christian" has to do with early Christian creeds, and not necessarily anything from the Bible. Early Christians argued over what God is. Some (such as Athanasius) embraced the Greek philosophers' ideal that God is of a different substance than the things he created ex nihilo (out of nothing), and established the Trinitarian creed/box. Origen, Eusebius and others endorsed the idea of God and Jesus as separate beings, with Jesus a subordinate God to the Father. Then Arius proclaimed one God, and since Jesus was separate from the Father, must not be a God, but a Lord. Mormons tend to agree with the concept of Origenism - the Godhead are separate beings that are uniquely united in all things.
The reality is, political and philosophical decisions that occurred 1700 years ago, should not establish doctrine of the Bible, or whether someone is a Christian, etc.
Should issues such as TULIP, baptism, keeping the commandments, or accepting the Apocrypha, determine whether a person should be excluded from the Christian appellation? Paul wished us all to be of Christ, and not divided. He sought us to be careful in the boxes we created, so that we not only keep ourselves in, but keep others out.

While I agree that Mormons are not traditional Christians, do we really want to delimit the term to the point that no one qualifies as a Christian?

Happy Easter, all!

http://mormonconversation.blogspot.com/

Interesting analysis of the Lord's Supper. However, Jesus did say "Do this in remembrance of Me" not yourself. I believe that major differences can be recognized by studing Mormon history.

http://www.truthandgrace.com/mormonhistory.htm

Who is a 'real' Christian? Jesus made it real simple:

"They will know you are my disciples by your Love one for another."

Nothing about doctrine.

ALL about Love!

http://dayofpraise.blogspot.com/

Judith Millward,

I really enjoyed your comment, and agree with it. How tiring it has become to debate over something that for me is so simple. Does it matter that each Christian does not share the exact same view in every point of gospel discussion, if together we share the same goal of coming unto Christ? How much energy is wasted over such a silly argument of who has the right to classify themselves as Christian? Christ is the Savior of Mankind, of all nations, all creeds, of all faiths. We should be asking ourselves “What would Jesus do?” and then “act more courageously upon the answer.” I for one will exert my efforts towards doing my best to make sure that I am acting as what I believe a true Christian would do, rather than waste my breath trying to define someone else's beliefs.

http://jesuschrist.lds.org
http://www.lds.net

Professor Flake: Thank you for so poignantly explaining the Book of Mormon's affirmation of the reality of the resurrected Christ, and the weekly participation of the Latter-day Saints in that affirmation.

In the book Claiming Christ, a discussion between Evangelical theologian Gerald McDermott and BYU religion professor Robert Millet, McDermott tells his fellow Evangelicals that they need to understand that the Book of Mormon is packed full of testimonies about Christ, many of which, McDermott feels, are consistent with his view of the Trinity (at least as consistent as the Bible).

Imagine that Paul is preaching in Ephesus about the resurrection of Christ, and a member of the congregation stands up and says, "Yes, I have seen the resurrected Christ as well. Listen to Paul, for he teaches the true message of salvation." Do you think Paul would get upset that he was getting additional support from another witness? When he scolded the Corinthian saints for splitting into factions, some supporting him versus others against Peter or Apollos, was he concerned about protecting his own turf? I think Paul would have first appreciated the support of his message, and second would have wanted to know about this additional witness, to learn whether or not the experience recounted was true.

No one is forced to believe the testimony of the Book of Mormon. But since it affirms the testimony of Paul and Peter and John, of Matthew and Luke, since Paul affirmed that Christ appeared also to James (the brother of Jesus) and to "above five hundred of the brethren at once", an event about which we have no other information, isn't it a mark of the true believer in Christ that he or she would be willing to consider additional witnesses who have seen the Savior?

What if a manuscript were found, buried in an obscure place like the Dead Sea Scrolls for millennia, that purported to be written by one of the hundreds who saw the resurrected Christ on that obscure occasion? Wouldn't a worshipper of Christ, someone who loved Jesus, want to know what it said, on the chance that it might provide an additional witness of the reality of that event, and perhaps even additional words of the Master? And if it offered these things, wouldn't he want to know if it were true?

The negative reaction of so many Christians to the testimony of the Book of Mormon, Another Testament of Jesus Christ, to the point of being unwilling to even crack it open and read it, raises a real question about the sincerity of their devotion to Christ. If they truly love Him, and there is even the slimmest possibility that He appears in these pages, don't they owe it to themselves to investigate and consider it? Why would they not want more of His words in their lives?

Are they afraid that Christ would become too real in the present world? That the imminence of His Second Coming would alter their lives? That He would break out of the little box of assumptions that they have constructed to contain Him?

To Gideon:

WHICH Jesus Christ? Well there’s only ONE Jesus Christ; hence ONE TRUTH. The challenge is for mortals to find out the Truth and the TRUE Jesus Christ. It’s interesting how anti-LDS sentiments always include the Galatians scripture that you quoted : “...if we or an angel preach any other gospel...let him be accursed” as if to convict angel Moroni who revealed the “everlasting gospel” to the prophet Joseph Smith. The implication in that verse is that there is a “true gospel/church” and again man’s duty is to find that gospel. What is misconstrued and narrowminded about the use of the Galatians reference is the oversight and ignorance (obviously due to unfamiliarity with the Bible) of an important verse and prophecy in Revelations :

“And I saw ANOTHER ANGEL fly in the midst of heaven, HAVING THE EVERLASTING GOSPEL to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every enation, and kindred, and tongue, and people, ....” Rev 14: 6 (Emphasis mine).

The question, therefore, is what about this “angel with the everlasting gospel”? Where is it? Has that angel come? It CERTAINLY has come, otherwise there would have been no Christ’s believers today. In other words, if this angel has not come, the whole world would still be looking forward to receiving him.

Ironically, however, the ONLY church that has such an angel in its history and origin, is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, in Moroni.

“And now, verily saith the Lord, that these things might be known among you, O inhabitants of the earth, I have sent forth mine angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel, who hath appeared unto some and hath committed it unto man, who shall appear unto many that dwell on the earth.
And this gospel shall be preached unto every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people.” (Doctrine & Covenants 133:36,37)

To me the definition of "Christian" does not come from the form of belief in Christ, or a definition created 1700 years ago, but from the life of the person who states they are Christians. Christ said "By their fruits ye shall know them." "Do the things that ye see me do." Do I show charity? Do I treat others as I wish to be treated? If someone asks me if I am a Christian, I answer do I act like one.

To me the definition of "Christian" does not come from the form of belief in Christ, or a definition created 1700 years ago, but from the life of the person who states they are Christians. Christ said "By their fruits ye shall know them." "Do the things that ye see me do." Do I show charity? Do I treat others as I wish to be treated? If someone asks me if I am a Christian, I answer do I act like one.

Fred Sanders,
I can understand your commonly-held point of view, but consider the implications if Divine Providence chooses to allow wrong choices by His children because He knows they will grow more by needing to have faith and learning to understand spiritual laws as well as physical laws. Why would He "force" the belief of His children by making belief in Him somethng obvious that didn't also require faith? Inspiration, joy, peace, unmistakable "still small voice" impressions--these are clear and precise manifestations to those who are amenable to having faith. Mormonism is founded on that kind of faith.

If the current concept of God is correct[omniscience]do you not think God would have made the definition for obtaining eternal life a little more clear?Would an omniscient being leave a message so muddled that over 20000 different protestant denominations exist with the large part of them all contradicting themselves in basic core beliefs and doctrines.Is this what you would expect from the being that had the power and knowledge to create the universe?

You can't use the old standard argument that all this is mankinds fault for not understanding the message and messing it up because if God is omniscient would he/she/it not have known this from the beginning of time?Would this God not have cared enought to make sure that the message for obtaining eternal life was perfectly clear for all races of mankind?

If the concept of God is to be believed then a great contradiction occurs between theology and the reality of human life.You have an all knowing and all powerful being that also has to be absolutely perfect in its essence leaving mankind with a message that mankind itself has misunderstood for over 2000yrs.

It would be logically impossible for a perfect being to do this without contradicting its own nature and thus proving that this concept of God is false and in fact this God cannot and does not exist.

Yesterday, Easter Sunday, millions of Latter-day Saints around the world celebrated Easter agreeing with Book of Mormon prophet Nephi who wrote on metal plates: "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophecy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins." (Second Book of Nephi, Ch. 25, vs 26.) I agree with pioneer Latter-day Sant historian Elder B. H. Roberts who many years ago had the faith that, "The Book of Mormon will not convert the world to a small encrusted sect called Mormonism, for Mormonism is to become a world movement. The Book of Mormon will help reconvert Christians, and eventually all the family of man, to Christ."

Yesterday, Easter Sunday, millions of Latter-day Saints around the world celebrated Easter agreeing with Book of Mormon prophet Nephi who wrote on metal plates: "And we talk of Christ, we rejoice in Christ, we preach of Christ, we prophecy of Christ, and we write according to our prophecies, that our children may know to what source they may look for a remission of their sins." (Second Book of Nephi, Ch. 25, vs 26.) I agree with pioneer Latter-day Sant historian Elder B. H. Roberts who many years ago had the faith that, "The Book of Mormon will not convert the world to a small encrusted sect called Mormonism, for Mormonism is to become a world movement. The Book of Mormon will help reconvert Christians, and eventually all the family of man, to Christ."

Shame on MORMONS or WAPO? Shame for CENSORiNG My Posts!

The Religion Of Everything is Born In USA, not Tibet, Armistar, Jerusalem, Mecca etc.

*J
**O
***Z
****E
*****V
******Z.us
***********J
*************O
***************Z
****************E
*****************V
******************Z.Us
***********************J
************************O
*************************Z
**************************E
***************************V
****************************Z.Us
*********************************J
***********************************O
*************************************Z
***************************************E
*****************************************V
*******************************************Z.Us
************************************************J
**************************************************O
***************************************************Z
*****************************************************E
*******************************************************V
*********************************************************Z.Us
**************************************************************J
****************************************************************O
******************************************************************Z
********************************************************************E
**********************************************************************V
************************************************************************Z.Us
*****************************************************************************J
*******************************************************************************O
*********************************************************************************Z
***********************************************************************************V
*************************************************************************************Z.us
******************************************************************************************J
********************************************************************************************O
**********************************************************************************************Z
************************************************************************************************V
**************************************************************************************************Z.Us
*******************************************************************************************************J
*********************************************************************************************************O
***********************************************************************************************************Z
*************************************************************************************************************E
***************************************************************************************************************V.Us

PEACE: PAZ: SHOLOM: AHIMSA: SALAAM:…,

Believe “IT” (ye ECLATi) or Not, “Healing Of Nations & World Peace & many more Good Prophecy is
Near!

WE are COME to save Lives via the "NEW-SONG!" and MORE good Tidings!

Please come see the S.H.i.L.O.H., That whom The Melchizedek Cometh to, here on

T.R.A.N.S.F.i.N.i.T.Y MOUNTAiN, N.Y, U.S.A. as told ye so many TiMES!

We are having 2nd Thoughts about MORMON's!???

Gideon,

Your statements put it all in a nutshell quite well for the most part.

Why so many Jesus' preached?

Because real truth has been lost for many, many, many years.

And all foretold in scripture ...Rev 12:9

>>He who rose that Easter morning.

Actually, Jesus rose at sunset on the weekly Sabbath....exactly 3 days and 3 nights from when he was put into the tomb. The Sabbath that scripture mentions that was being prepared for, as Jesus was prepared to be put into the tomb, was a High Day (first Day of Unleavened Bread..on Thursday that year)

He was crucified on a Wed afternoon, buried at sunset Wed...Wed sunset to Thurs sunset, 1 day...Thursday sunset to Friday sunset, 2 days...Friday sunset to weekly Sabbath sunset, 3 days....

3 days and 3 nights.

Just as our Lord and Savior said it would be (as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the great fish)

Cant be calculated on a 'Good Friday' afternoon to a Sunday morning.

One of the reasons there is so much religious confusion when it comes to God, Jesus Christ and truth.

Astarte, Ishtar, fertility symbols (bunnies and eggs) have no place with our Lord and Saviors resurrection. No place does He mention to keep such. Only the Passover does he mention to do in remembrance once per year..to commemorate His death.

Rev 12:9 says it all.

Mormons claim to be Christian because they believe in Jesus Christ, which begs the question as to WHICH Jesus Christ? As Paul said about 2,000 years ago, although there is only one, yet are many preached. "If we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel than that you have heard, let him be accursed."

Mormons, Catholics, Jehovah's Witnesses, Baptists, Seventh Day Adventists, et al, all preach and teach different gospels and different Jesuses. It is a trick of the mind that they all say "Jesus Christ," leading the ignorant to believe that they are all of the same faith.

They do not all believe the same, and they are not all Christian.

Are Mormons Christians?

A ridiculous question. Of course they are.

They emphatically believe that Jesus was the Son of God and that he is integral to man's salvation.

The fact that they believe MORE than that (things about Satan) that other Christians may not does not distinguish them from other Christians.

Catholics believe plenty of things that other Christians do not.

(I am an Ex-Mormon who no longer believes what Mormons believe, but I know what they DO believe)

BGone:

If you would like to read the history surrounding the origin of the notion of man's resurrection on earth its on the web at http://www.hoax-buster.org That used to be his second page. And, a demonstration of what we get when technical people get involved in democratic processes like history where what happened is determined by the vote of experts.

Here's one more link you can try if the one below didn't get you to the meetinghouse locator: http://www.mormon.org/worshipwithus
You may need to type it into your browser.
Again - Happy Easter!

Jeff

Also, thank you Professor Flake for highlighting the fact that Latter-day Saints have always held a sacrament service in memory of Jesus Christ. For those curious about the details of this service, please join us on any Sunday to observe how it is carried out. Visitors are very welcome to come. You can find your local meetinghouse at http://www.lds.org/basicbeliefs/meetinghouse.

Happy Easter! I personally have enjoyed reflecting these past few days on the wonderful sacrifice of the Son of God to atone for the sins of mankind and to once and for all conquer death. All my life, words from the Bible and Book of Mormon have worked together to increase my faith in our living Lord, He who rose that Easter morning.
My wish is that everyone's Easter Sunday might be joy filled and comforting!

Dear Professor Flake

I wish you a wonderful Easter 2008!

Soja John Thaikattil
Sydney, Australia

Kathleen Flake,
Thank you for this essay, and your thoughtfulness.

Bill L.,
The media may have mislead you into the misunderstanding that you presented. Mormons believe that Christ was God the Son in the premortal life, and came to earth born of Mary where He took upon himself mortality while still a God. I personally think that Father in Heaven, the head of the "trinity", is the Supreme Ruler of the universe, from eons backward in time to eons forward in time. We don't know much about Satan's rebellion in the premortal life, but "fallen angel" is a most apt description of him.

Christ lives, a resurrected being who loves each of us unconditionally and invites us to love Him and each other. I am so very grateful for His love and for His peace that is profound and satisfying. I see and feel it around me every day, among my family, friends, and the world at large.

Quoting the book of mormon is for the Christian what quoting the bible is for atheists!

It is not up for the individual to decide what a Christian is! Christ decided when he established his devinity as truth! He established a Church with authority to spread the gospel into the whole world and baptise in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit!

Jesus is not an angel! He is not the younger brother of Satan! He is God, the second person of the Trinitarian God!
God the Father does not have a God, who has a God, who.....

Concerned the christian now liberated. Now that name reminds me of the person who fell into the vat of beer and bravely fought off all attempts at rescue! Stupor is stupor whether is a drunken one or intellectual, or lack of faith in God!

Although I have no wish to detract from Ms. Flake's thoughtful essay by attempting to opine on the "more or less Christian" question posed in the last paragraph, I nevertheless wish to celebrate the weekly covenant in Mormonism to ~always~ remember Jesus Christ, that we have ~His~ spirit to be with us. While the historical and theological origins of Mormonism are certainly open for debate, the deep, collective yearning of Mormons to be an intimate part of Christ's story/history is noteworthy, and should put to rest the question of whether or not Mormons are "Christian".