A Post-Evangelical America?

Billy8,

Spidey an engineer? No way. I have known dozens of engineers, and they all willingly say what kind of engineer they are. I have known mechanical, structural, civil, electrical, and even nuclear engineers, all proud to say what kind of engineer they are. Spidey won't say what kind he is. Spidey is a liar.

this is truth beyond truth

Reality 101 again:

Our presidential elections are now controlled by the Immoral Majority of from 70-90 million "mothers and fathers" of aborted womb-babies.

More commentary about the influence of evangelicals, Christians, Catholics, Jews and atheists on presidential elections is now simply a waste of time.

And to think BO collected over $640 million dollars, (~$64 million went to the not-so-ethical campaign managers/money collectors at ASK) when all BO had to do is announce his pro-choice and FOCA support. Contributors should request a refund

America has made a dangerous shift to the left- which bears the marks of a toppling empire-
Suddenly Stem Cell Research is vibrant and gays are energized in this atmosphere.
These are freedoms that were won on the backs of a widely Conservative political theory called Democracy
When one abandons conservatism even in its most modest of forms one has abandoned Democracy and embraced something much more liberal and sinister

spidermean2,

I know you enjoy seeing your own words in print -- which explains your oh-too-many repetitions -- but consider this ...

That New Testament you're so found of quoting was written mostly by a man and others signing his name -- Paul, who usurped the religion carried on by Jesus disciples, i.e., the Jerusalem church.

That same NT was created nearly three centuries after-the-fact, through standardizing early Catholic Church leaders' prejudices on thousands of writings into a POLITICAL document to reinforce an already-crumbling Roman Empire (see Constantine, Nicea, and all that). In fact, it took another 150 years to "canonize" the thing (Jerome, et al).

It was then used by a priest caste to keep Dark and Middle Age nobility in line, and kept from the common people UNDER PENALTY OF DEATH.

It was further twisted during the Reformation when Luther, Calvin, et al, eliminated 7 books from the Catholic bible and chopped down a few others, to serve THEIR interpretations of What Should Be. (Although Luther did want to toss Revelation, which w/h/b a marvelous act.)

Now, with ...

1. all the mischief that OLD WHITE MEN have inflicted on their so-called "sacred text", and 2. all the loose-cannon interpretations that more recent OLD WHITE MEN have decreed (Darby et seq.), and
3. the EVANGELICAL TEACHING THAT THE BIBLE IS INERRANT AND HISTORICALLY ACCURATE, and
4. that self-proclaimed American Evangelical leaders have sold out for political power,

do you still wonder why the more rational among us roll our eyes every time some self-anointed looney-tune starts quoting "scripture" at us to validate a woefully-delusional view of the world?

Your belief system is SERIOUSLY wanting, and certainly given its sad history in world affairs, is no standard by which to judge others.

Get. Over. It.

Article VI of the United States Constitution ends with the following words:

"no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States."

Any religious group which tries to subvert this statement should be considered espousing a treasonous policy. At the very least, they should lose any consideration for favorable treatement under the U.S. Tax Code.

Larry

I hope someday that the nation realizes evangelicals don't hold the moral high ground. In my personal association with atheists (as an atheist myself) I've never met a group of people more dedicated to humanitarian causes. These are compassionate people, non judgmental, who wouldn't dream of treating anyone else in a way they themselves wouldn't want to be treated. Their hearts are wide open. The takeover of this country by the religious right was very frightening to those of us who don't identify with any organized religion. It's been an ugly time in our history.

Let's not make too much of this anomaly which may not repeat again for many years, as long as there are significant number of white evangelicals with the same values. It's only because some of them felt threatened enough by the worst economy in decades under their Republican administration that they felt there was no better choice but to cast votes for Barack Obama. Perhaps some of them already were in financial troubles and justifiably felt that George W. Bush and other Republican leaders even let them down too much. Let's face it, when their pockets hurt or are threatened, other issues take back seats, even for the white evangelicals. If economy wasn't so bad, there's no way that any of them would have voted for a Democrat, much less one of Obama's background.

Thank you for this insightful and provocative blog. I fit in the category of a Christian who voted for Obama not because of his likemindedness with all of my beliefs but his capacity to understand and learn. The singular dichotomy pruported by white evangelicals is not necessarily the view I share. I believe decisions should be looked at in it's entirety and the sum of all parts should make the decision. Glad to hear someone else who agrees with this sentiment.

Let's see how these "anti-war" idiots...

If you're not on the front lines, you are an anti-war idiot or a chicken hawk. I'll let you pick.

spidermean2 Author Profile Page:

Im an engineer.

Does anyone here believe that?

I hear people throwing the Bible at people. Now the Bible thrower please get off of your computer now. You can help reduce the numbers by giving your time and money. Why do most women abort babies. MONEY. LACK OF SUPPORT. So get out and help save a baby and stop typing. Go give money and give your support. We could reduce the numbers by simply offering money and giving support. It would take lots of money but it would be for a good cause. Give support by putting the mother in a class to show her how to take care of the baby and her self. It would save millions if you could show the mother how to be stable and how to raise a productive child. Yea, you can stand at the step and pray and shot and the women may turn around but what about after she have the baby. Will you help support her and the child? Maybe you will or will you be like Bill O' Relly on FOXNEWS.

Let's see how these "anti-war" idiots will handle Iran and its gang like Venezuela, Russia, etc. It's not yet over folks.

I believe the reason we're losing many soldiers in Iraq and Afghanistan is because the planners are listening too much to these liberal idiots.

Send more unmanned drones and not foot soldiers. Iraqis and Afghans can do that job better.

Don't tire the soldiers coz bigger troubles are still coming. These insurgents can't overan a country without air power. What are you guys worrying about?

Opiums are still planted in many parts in Afghanistan. It just shows how idiotic this war has become.

Um, y'all have to understand that Spidermean2 is a troll. That means s/he is just trying to get a rise out of you. And. it's. working.

When an ass brays in the field, you don't have to bray back.

How prescient of the founders to separate Church and State. If anything, the religious wingnuts on this forum give ample evidence that a wall separating the State from the Church was wise. What we have been subjected to for the past eight years (and truly longer) is the pollution of government and the dilution of our constitution by the rabid religious right. These are the folks who singlehandedly put the whole world at risk with the Bush doctrine to invade nations first and ask questions later. These are the folks who trade and traffic in the hate of misogyny, race and creed. Their time is over. The sun is out. May reason and compassion rule in the place of religious madness and arrogance.

Im an engineer. Idiots don't understand what that means perhaps. 5 years of pure math and science. No fiction allowed unlike evolution science where animals become humans like werewolves.

Spidermean2:

Some questions...

1) What state do you live in?
2) What is your level of education?
3) Have you ever had a sexual experience?

spidermean2 Author Profile Page:

God decides who gets to rule this world. The Bible says that it's the Conservative Evangelical Christians.

The truth is our only ticket to get there is believe. You liberals can say all you want or win all the elections you like, but it will all come to naught.

This earth is reserved for the true Children of God. That is the prophecy and nobody can disannul it.

"Likewise, their men have given up natural sexual relations with women and burn with lust for each other. Men commit indecent acts with men, so they experience among themselves the punishment they deserve for their perversion." (Romans 1:27)

Tho

Am I the only one who wants to meet this guy? I mean, I know some crazy people, but this guy? Can you imagine what it would be like to get him drunk and listen to him ramble?!? That would be soooooo entertaining.

The next generation of Evangelicals is Post-Party. We recognize that there is No Party of God.

Evangelicals have been rainbow colored since the Azusa Street revival at the dawn of the 20th century. My candidate has won 5 for 5 in the last presidential elections. Once a Democrat, I have been unaffiliated since Clinton travestied Presidential leadership. We, younger and frequently more educated Evangelicals, vote on the issues each election cycle. We value social issues, but recognize that care for the poor and helpless is the greatest manifestation of the Gospel. In this latter respect, Bush’s compassionate conservatism never materialized, to our dismay.

A good hallmark of this debate is the passage of the Same Sex Marriage ban on the West Coast, Nov. 4th. Though, not a Californian, I would have voted against Proposition 8 and for Obama. This is not a contradiction, despite folks who WRONGLY see Marriage as a primarily legal issue, but rather an affirmation in the simple Evangelical conviction that the Bible is the infallible guide to all matters in life. We believe that Marriage originated in a literal Eden and was instituted by God for, among other reasons, the viability of civilization and to foster a reverent progeny. In the same book, God – The Father, also declared all men and women equal in God's sight, though created for distinct purposes -each divine and unique within his plan. Democrats and so-called intellectuals ridicule these tenets and the Speaking of Tongues for instance, at their peril. The genius of Obama, and the reason he will continue to increase his support among under-50 Evangelicals, as myself, is because he respects these beliefs and acknowledges their value.

As youn Latino Evangelicals, we asked: What Would Jesus Do? And voted Obama…

Pro Spread the Wealth
1 John 3:17 > If anyone has material possessions and sees his brother in need but has no pity on him, how can the love of God be in him?

Pro Welfare Reform and Pro Ethics Reform
James 1:27 > Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.

Pro Universal Health Care
Matthew 9:12 > Jesus said, "It is not those who are healthy who need a physician, but those who are sick. “

Pro Taxes
Mark 12 > They came to Jesus and said, "… Is it right to pay taxes to Caesar or not? Should we pay or shouldn't we?... Then Jesus said to them, "Give to Caesar what is Caesar's and to God what is God's.

Pro Peace
Matthew 5:9 > Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God.

the most dangerous place a christian can be in today is the (any) church.
According to the biblical calendar the church age ended in 1989.
jews are still waiting for their messiah.
the churches dont accept that god has removed the candle stick and has places satan to rule the churches ( all of them ).

God decides who gets to rule this world. The Bible says that it's the Conservative Evangelical Christians.

The truth is our only ticket to get there is believe. You liberals can say all you want or win all the elections you like, but it will all come to naught.

This earth is reserved for the true Children of God. That is the prophecy and nobody can disannul it.

"Likewise, their men have given up natural sexual relations with women and burn with lust for each other. Men commit indecent acts with men, so they experience among themselves the punishment they deserve for their perversion." (Romans 1:27)

Tho

To paraphrase Ronald Reagan, we ARE the diversity (evangelical Christians, that is). People like Darrell Bock had plenty of reasons to vote for Obama, but to do so required turning a blind eye to his egregiously false twisting of scripture during his 2007 "Call for Renewal" speech, in which he claimed the Bible condoned slavery and endorsed the stoning of children who left their faith (totally false), and voted less than 10 years ago, as a state senator, for a despicable form of infanticide (denying medical care to infant survivors of abortions). Respect for and the treatment of life drives what Christians do in their AIDS and Darfur ministries -- it is the foundation of their faith and, for the most thoughtful of them, it informes their political beliefs and actions as well, as it should.

Democratic Christians? Are you sure they exist? How can you be a Christian and deny the doctrines of the New Testament? Answer....You can't!! However you can still call yourself one in order to deceive yourself into believing a lie.

10 years ago, I found the far right amusing but certainly not threatening or dangerous.

Then came Terry Schiavo and the fanatical pro-life movement and Bush & Palin and now I'm not amused anymore. I find them sad and uneducated and frightening and horribly racist.

One can't help but wonder if the crazy far right were never born-wouldn't this be a better country?

What we are witnessing is the end of WASP [White Anglo Saxon Protestant] politics - the "good ole boys." They are finally losing their grip on us. We are maturing, I hope, and seeing the end of an era of politics based on ignorance and religion.

One of the casualties of this change is the Republican party. It used to have a broad spectrum of members until it was taken over by what many of us call the American Taliban - the religious right - and everyone else was drummed out for not toeing the line of right wingnut extremism.

This extreme right era has lasted 30+ years by the old Dixiecrats taking over the Republican party. You can see this in the Republican retreat to the old deep south in this election. Can the Republican party regain its balance and become a national party ? Who knows.

I am 67, grew up in segregated schools, marching on confederate memorial day and saying "nigger." But twice, count'em twice, in my lifetime, America has been rescued, not by the wealthy, but by its most loyal, neglected and discriminated against citizens - black Americans. Rosa Parks, MLK and Barack, thank you. And special thanks to Leroy Whitfield and Warren Scott, both dead now, who rescued me personally on occasion.

America's motto used to be "E pluribus unum" - from many one. Americans come in 31 flavors. That makes us strong. When we let people divide us as the right wing religious wingnuts - American Taliban - did, we are weak.

It is time once again to realize that though we have come far, we have not yet overcome. Our work is not done until WASP politics is gone and the word "nigger" becomes a badge of honor.

I am a hard-core and unapologetic liberal Democrat. I am also an evangelical, born-again Christian. The reason there is no internal conflict in my life is that my politics is based upon the U. S. Constitution and its requirements of (1) separation of church and state, and (2) protection of the rights of the minority from the tyranny of the majority, while my spiritual station -- my "personal relationship with Jesus Christ" (to which "daturne1" so aptly referred) -- is based upon my personal reading of the New Testament and upon my own personal experience in seeking and finding a personal relationship with God through my faith in Jesus Christ.

IMHO, the Government has no place in the Church, and the Church has no place in the Government.

Obviously, the decisions that an individual makes are "informed" by the entirety of his/her being -- including past experience, intellect, education, faith, and other similarly identifiable facets of any human's existence. Because of that, IMHO it is appropriate for voters to inquire as to the nature of a candidate's faith and how he/she practices it. What is inappropriate is for the voters to expect the candidate, if elected, to carry out the duties of his/her office in such a manner as to permit or encourage the Government to impose any particular article(s) of faith upon any part of the citizenry. That is the line that Thomas Jefferson was talking about when he spoke of the "wall of separation between church and state" in his letter to the Danbury Baptists in 1802.

I agree with "plaza04433" who observed that "daturne1" hit the nail squarely on the head when he/she wrote, below, that "the defining characteristic of the Religious Right was always ... political [and] secular power." I think the voters finally recognized that the Religious Right has pushed the country across the Constitutional line that separates church from state, and the voters emphatically declared that they want the Government to re-establish that "wall of separation" and assiduously guard its maintenance in the future.

Relatedly ... be aware of this web site:
www.fellowshipofchristiandemocrats.com

since when does race quotas have anything to do with religion...
why does on faith continue their campaign to destroy the worship of GOD...
on faith should be ashamed and would do better by exploring the joy and benefits of a relationship with GOD instead of the crap we read here every day...

Antinari makes a VERY VERY credible explanation to how misled and corrupt evangelicals have become. They are so hateful of others that they cannot possibly be following the words of Jesus.

And so yes Antinari, they are born again to SATAN. We must fight them at every opportunity.

Ofcourse through ignorance and denial, evangelicals are incapable of self analysis.

Ask yourselves: Do evangelicals speak the words of Jesus or Satan? Who preaches HATE and INTOLERANCE of OTHERS?

I have always been a big sceptical of those "born agains". It seems to me that they have been "born again to Satan" - especially when you consider the huge religious devisiveness and intolerance they have led the way on in our country. Sure looks more like the work of the Devil than Jesus to me. Jesus taught that we are all born sons and daughters of God. So God would know we do not need to be "born again" to Him and would never expect that of us. But that sly Satan - now doesn't that sound like something he would come up with to rope in some unsuspecting but prideful Christians? Oh, look how much more special in the eyes of "God" it will make you to be "born again". Being "born again" will make you better than those OTHERS who have not. Think about it. Think long and hard about it. We are a little too quick to dismiss the existance of a Satan - and certainly too slow to recognize his work. Because he is soooo good at his work. Satan isn't stupid enough to come in the form of an obviously scary suicide-bombing Islamic terrorist to threaten our religious freedoms. Oh, no. He is smart enough to take us quietly from within our safe inner places, like our Bible-thumping holier-than-thou fundamentalist churches where those folks least expect to find him. I am telling you. These fundamentalist "born agains" have been born again to Satan, not God. God does it right the first time and expects us to have faith that He did it right the first time. I was born right the first time, a child of God, and have always had unquestioning faith in that. I've never been tempted by all that "born again" stuff, by all those "special" promises and "special" privileges. I confess my sins to God, He forgives me - no traumatic "rebirthing" necessary. Maybe my sins just aren't that traumatic - but it is sinners that Satan targets. I guess that really is the benefit of true and abiding faith in God; even Satan himself can't tempt you with those special rewards of being "born again" as a child of Satan. In this election year, you just had a majority of people who were born right the first time - into whatever or even no religion God had chosen for them - deciding it was finally time to start calling Satan out and standing up to all those hateful, intolerant Christian fundamentalists who are going to be the last to know that what they were "born again" into was the hands of Satan.

Why do we have the American Taliban (the Evangelical Cristian nuts)? Because it is easier to remember a brief passage of the book of fairy tales (the Bible) than to study hard to come out of ignorance. It is easy to negate science than to try to incorporate some of it to the person´s own knowledge. It is easier to stay in front of the TV eating junk food and watching some American Taliban (the Evangelical Cistian nuts) "reverend" say a bunch of stupidities than to go to school to really learn something.

Finally! Finally the normal, reasoning people had the bravery to kick the American Taliban (the Evangelical Cristian nuts) out of the country´s political affairs.

As Owlafaye has verified, our presidential elections are now controlled by the Immoral Majority of from 70-90 million "mothers and fathers" of aborted womb-babies.

More commentary about the influence of evangelicals, Christians, Catholics, Jews and atheists on presidential elections is now simply a waste of time.

And to think BO collected over $640 million dollars, (~$64 million went to the not-so-ethical campaign managers/money collectors at ASK) where all BO had to do is announce his pro-choice and FOCA support. Contributors should request a refund

daturne1 wrote:

"The defining characteristic of the Religious Right was not "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ", but first and always political, which group is going to give us secular power."

Bingo!

I disagree with Lisa Miller, and keeping mind the distinction daturn1 has made, I think what happened was that elements of both true the evangicals and also the religious right could no longer accept an incompetent administration on the part of Bush -or an incompetent campaign on the part of McCain Palin.

For some people, no matter what they believe, competence counts.

"Likewise, their men have given up natural sexual relations with women and burn with lust for each other. Men commit indecent acts with men, so they experience among themselves the punishment they deserve for their perversion." -Sen.Larry Craig

The "millions" of aborted children had TWO parents. According to one of the posters here, 35 million+ fetuses have been aborted since 1973. That is 70+ million people, a number that far outweighs evangelical pro-lifers. I like the news photo of the man carrying a sign in a crowd of abortion/pro life protesters. It said: "We Are All Idiots"...laughter

Simply GOOGLE "born again christian sado masochists" and enjoy the 11,000 hits.

Try "Bondage and Discipline christians" also.

All in the name of Christ of course.

OF COURSE !

Hey evangelicals, look back over the years and see what your votes have bought. 10 trillion dollars in debt, 47,000,000 people without health insurance, a huge number of unwed mothers, a collapsed banking industry, a collapsed auto industry, severe climate problems, and a supreme court that now interferes in our right to vote by picking the presidential winner.

My feeling is we should be careful who we elect and stay out of a woman's right to chose, because adoption in almost all cases does not work (look at the unwed mother statistics) and children grow up with their parents as mentors, and continue the parental ways, including more unwanted births. Instead, we should find ways to make the need for abortion rare.

I wish you would be careful who you vote for.

The evangelicals are all going to hell, i.e., the hell that only exists in the make-believe world inside my mind!

The so-called Evangelical movement went astray when many became the somewhat oxymoronical "Evangelical Hate Groups." It is their way or the highway. In their political zeal they have naively participated with Republicans in criminal campaign money laundering, blurred the message of the cross and trashed the constitution's carefully crafted avoidance of a US theocracy. My prayer is that those 'hate groups' discover the parts of the Bible which would give them a social conscious and let them tone their redirect down.

"Likewise, their men have given up natural sexual relations with women and burn with lust for each other. Men commit indecent acts with men, so they experience among themselves the punishment they deserve for their perversion." (Romans 1:27)

Evangelicals BELIEVE the word of God. People who don't should expect the SURE punishment that's coming. God does not lie and it's coming. Just be patient.

911 was just an advance warning from God. A bigger one that will burn this world is in the offing. Global warming? That would become the least of your worries. Global burning, it is.

White evangelicals have become too demanding in their desire to force others to accept their religious doctrine. They should stop trying to influence public policy based on their personal religious beliefs. They are becoming cult like in their thinking. They too often disparage those who do not conform to their faith. It has become so un-American. I do not want any religious group influencing public policy. It's hurtful to judge so many in a negative fashion.

I don't think white evangelicals used to be like this. I don't ever recall them being so political. They used to focus on community issues, helping those in need, and being compassionate and caring. Maybe it's not the majority, but the few that are being so vocal make one feel uncomfortable in their presence. They have lost their focus on faith and encouraging people to follow the teachings of Jesus. The extremists are not bringing new members into the fold. They are not bringing others closer to Jesus, but instead driving people away. Calling people murderers and sinners is deplorable from a Christian, especially one that has been born again. I pray that they will regain their focus on love, faith, and the teachings of Jesus.

AIPACiswar wrote "Goddamn these fools,"

Are you referring to abortionists and men marrying men?

One's religion is a personal matter and should be kept that way. The freedom to worship as one wishes with no restrictions and no impositions by government and other religions should not mistaken for the right to impose the teachings of one's preferred religion on others through government.

This is not to say that only atheists should be in charge or that morals have no place in government. I'm not anti-religion. I'm pro constitution.

daturne1, Evangelical means believing in the doctrine of being BORN AGAIN. That makes the UCC church NOT an evangelical crowd.

Comparing the UCC with the evangelical is almost like comparing the devil with Christ. Paul warns that the devil present itself as religious too.

Abortion and gay marriage are the doctrines of the devil and the whole of the UCC church heirarchy agrees with it.

Don't redefine evangelical coz you are surely not one of them.

I find it infuriating that evangelicals can decide that others don't believe in God because they don't believe what evangelicals believe, are not born again and haven't taken Jesus as their lord and savior. It is an insult to everyone and it is exclusionary. I don't believe what they believe. I grant them the right to believe it if they so choose but that doesn't make them entitled to pass judgment on the rest of us as if they were Godself.

Good analysis, however, I believe that for many years "the media" has simply let the "religious right" define "evangelical."

The term was in use for at least 400 years before Falwell, Dobson, Pat Robertson, et.al.

You use the term "mainline denominations" as those who "do not believe in a personal relationship with Jesus Christ." I am a United Methodist pastor (retired.) The baptismal vows (for those of an age to be accountable for themselves) and the membership vows of the church ask the adherent, Do you believe in Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior? I suspect Presbyterians, U.C.C. and others do likewise.

The defining characteristic of the Religious Right was not "a personal relationship with Jesus Christ", but first and always political, which group is going to give us secular power. The Republicans bowed to them for a long time. Perhaps now they will seek another avenue.

In an NPR interview about the candiates' "world views," Jon Meacham mentioned Obama's attitude toward FDR's Four Freedoms: namely, freedom of speech, freedom of faith, freedom from want and freedom from fear. According to Mr. Meacham, Obama believes that freedom from want and fear take priority because without them the others are essentially meaningless.

This may explain in part Obama's commitment to Roe vs. Wade - as shown in his address to Planned Parenthood - as an issue on which he will not yield. However,this commitment is not necessarily linked to relief from poverty but part of a larger list of provisions that must be assured if women can realize their full potential.

In my opinion, his attitude toward the unborn is revealing, and although he later attributed a moral component to abortion (at Saddleback and the third debate), this was absent in his appearance before Planned Parenthood. Surely, his commitment to sign the FOCA bill is amazingly counter-cultural in a nation that has yet to come to terms with abortion. It seems to me we understand ourselves as above all a nation that welcomes the stranger, inlcluding the unborn. It is quite striking that he would challenge that aspect of our cultural heritage, and it is uncertain that once we have freedoms from want and fear, the others will be not be curtailed.

As a final note, although I tried to follow the election coverage, I don't believe that Newsweek or the Washington Post gave enough attention to the significance of OBama's commitment to Roe and FOCA. NPR either.

No it was not party-switching evangelicals, god-fearing atheists, Afro-Americans, Latinos, or Christian Democrats!!!

Once again:

President-elect Obama rode to Blood-Red House on the backs of 35+million aborted womb-babies!!!

The fastest growing USA voting bloc: The 70 million "mothers and fathers of aborted children" whose ranks grow by two million per year.

i.e. the Immoral Majority now rules the land and will do so in the foreseeable future. How very sad and disturbing!!!