Being True to God's Call (Not Man's)

I mean, pardon if I regress a bit to, say, 1984, *Professor,* but you don't *get* to claim that what your religion does to people is the natural order of things *because* you make people suffer under it, therefore they should suffer in silence.

You. Don't. Get. To.

"Does religion empower women? It certainly can. Countless women throughout history have found strength and sustenance in dealing with great suffering, including great injustice, by nurturing a strong spiritual life, and a sense of their own worth that transcends the difficulties, even horrors, of their circumstances."

*stage-whispering*

That's what the nuns said about the order of things with with great, ahh... piety, when anyone set off their gaydar. Which doesn't exist, of course.....

"The differences between men and women, physically as well as positionally should be celebrated and preserved as the God ordained order of life. There are roles and hierarchy in heaven and here on earth and submission to God and authority as well as submission to each other and each others roles is a sign of spiritual maturity and a servants heart."

I call BS on this. Equality is not about submission to another simply because your gender is different.Physically a woman will not fare well on a football team, but in terms of brains and skills and education- well, women have true equality and if you deny them a position, claiming the glorification of G-d, you don't understand the meaning of the word "equality."

Many historic Jesus exegetes have concluded that the simple preacher man aka Jesus did not say the passages that were noted i.e.

1) Luke 10:38-42
(2a) John 11:1
(2b) John 12:1-3

Crossan analysis: from his book, The Historical Jesus
Item: 448
Stratum: III (80-120 CE)
Attestation: Single
Historicity: Not historic but later embellishments.

"Jesus Seminar

The commentary in The Five Gospels attributes the creation of this episode to Luke, and also identifies its function in Luke's narrative:

Both the Samaritan and Mary step out of conventional roles in Luke's examples. This is Luke's reason for placing the story of Mary and Martha in tandem with the parable of the Samaritan. The Samaritan for Luke illustrates the second commandment ("Love your neighbor as yourself"), Mary exemplifies the fulfillment of the first commandment ("You are to love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your energy, and with all your mind").

"John P. Meier

Meier [A Marginal Jew III,631] mentions "the hospitable Mary and Martha" as part of a "second group of significant adherents or supporters of Jesus" who did not literally follow him:

... it is not by accident that the hospitable Mary and Martha, the repentant Zacchaeus, and the beloved Lazarus are not called disciples in the Gospels, despite their commitment and service to Jesus. They were among the "stay-at-home" supporters, whose aid to the movement was by no means negligible. By gifts of money, food, and lodging, they supplied Jesus' traveling band of disciples with the necessary support network for a period of over two years. One would like to know whether or to what extent this support system was more than purely accidental and haphazard and may have represented conscious planning on the part of Jesus. In any event, the support system reminds us once again that not all of Jesus' adherents were desperately poor.

We assume your issue is Paul's thinking about women as spelled out in his and the pseudo Paul epistles. We would rate it flawed first century CE thinking/conduct and such passages should be deleted. Also, (as suggested many times) see the discussion of said passages in Professor Crossan and Reed's book, In Search of Paul and in Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Paul.

Professor Chilton pulls no punches in criticizing one of the founders of Christianity. Basically Paul was a "prude". An excerpt for Chilton's book,

"He (Paul) feared the turn-on of women's voices as much as the sight of their hair and skin..... At one point he even suggests that the sight of female hair might distract any "pretty wingie talking fictional thingies" in church attendance (1 Cor. 11:10). Simply add Paul's thinking about women to the list of flaws in the foundations of Christianity.

Professor Chilton btw is a Professor of Religion at Bard College.

Hmmm, do you think maybe that Mo's scribes simply enhanced Paul's thinking about women when they wrote the koran??? Absolutely!!!!

Can someone explain why Jesus chose 12 men as his disciples if women were to have equal roles as men? I have never understood why Jesus would do this if his main goal was complete equality between the sexes.

In my opinon the Author has confused the Holy Bible, a Divine Decree, with that of a Constitutional Decree. Actually it's rather a trendy thing to do nowadays, so perhaps it wasn't a mistake.

This Americanized law-firm "spin" on a Divinely inspiried document reminds me of the suffocating prismatic beauty of gasoline on undulating water.

IF ONLY the early church fathers had followed Jesus more closely-

For JC was man enough to allow his mind to be changed by women-

We would have a different kind of Christianity today.

One example is the woman at the well who even after Jesus called her a 'dog' didn't give up 'begging' and she finally got what she asked for.

"Nothing in the world can take the place of persistence. Talent will not. ... Genius will not. ... Education will not. Persistence and determination alone are omnipotent."- Calvin Coolidge

Once upon a time, there was an old widow, who lived in a certain town with a judge who cared nothing about justice, people or God. But an old widowed crone kept coming to him with her plea, "Grant me justice against my adversary."

The judge ignored her until she became such a PIA [pain in the ass] he finally muttered to himself, "Even though I don't fear God or care a hoot about this old crone, she has become such a pain in my ass, I will give into her, just to get her to leave me alone!" [Paraphrased from a story Jesus told in Luke 18 1-5]

Eileen Fleming, Citizen Journalist and Founder WAWA:
http://www.wearewideawake.org/
Author "Keep Hope Alive" and "Memoirs of a Nice Irish American 'Girl's' Life in Occupied Territory"
Producer "30 Minutes With Vanunu" and "13 Minutes with Vanunu"

The United States is a nation of laws and the laws have broken the men. We have a big crisis. All you need is two people to solve a crisis. Finding the right two people is a challenge. At least one has to be a woman. I'm sure of that.

I agree completely that according to the scriptures men and women are 100%, totally and completely equal. They do have different roles to occupy just as on an athletic team all the players are equally important but each has a unique role and position to fill. The differences between men and women, physically as well as positionally should be celebrated and preserved as the God ordained order of life. There are roles and hierarchy in heaven and here on earth and submission to God and authority as well as submission to each other and each others roles is a sign of spiritual maturity and a servants heart.