Why bad people do good things

peace to you as well, justtillthennow.

Hello ErikaJune,

"Those with the bullhorn have lost the message."

Tell that to them. It'll be a shocker for them to hear, and I am sure hard for them to believe. But I believe you. You could even tell them that. Good luck!

"Accepting the gift that Jesus gave me doesn't preclude me from being self liberated from what I self loathe. I accept His forgiveness, but still examine myself to be a better human."

I am sure that the assumption that you are 'forgiven' by God for some presumed insult or injury brings a sense of relief to you. This is after all a central draw in Christianity. So I am happy for you. But as I said, in different words, forgiveness or any other blessing or virtue, is not bestowed but taken on. Become.

It does not 'find footing' in my experience that God judges us, or condemns us, or despises us for anything. Does the human father turn away from his children, even as they, per necessity, turn away for a time from their original home? No. He awaits their return.

There is nothing to forgive, but ourselves to come to peace with who we are and what we have done or 'failed' to do in life.

In my view. We all have our own path to walk.

Hey, the bullhorn people are just following an old creed with new technology. Go tell it on the mountain....

Peace!

Brethren D R i S C O L, et al: "Enjoy Today, and don't worry about tomorrow, if ye can; nor hurry tomorrow for it surely will come [Justly in a FLASH as it had in the Past]"

O' DEATH! The patient/patience that ye hath; the Friend of [i] friend; O' my Loyal friend; Why hath ye been unjustifiably given such an ugly name of sorts for such a beautifull THING or feat?! O' i-deal dear Death, WE [i] know that Ye art not a Beast, Yet i [WE] intuitively know that ye art a good care-taker , No-Matter. O' Death, such a smart but Loyal Worker; We, The-FEARLESS, not the-Jealous folk are your Soldiers!

From Caterpillar NOW [THIS] we are, To Butterfly [NEXT] each goes... according to TiME] Our Holy-i Cosmic Eternal Miracle(s) in Motion: Coming & Going according to "IT"s [Natural] unreversable-Laws (No Error). Note: ""IT"" ['G-D' by manymanymany names, not 99 or 1,000 names; does make, not many, mistakes (i.e., placing a Female in a Mans Body; vis viz, etc..) ; but IT is impossible for IT to reverse IT's own Existance! Hark;

LiFE [LOVE] is a Miracle [not written in Sin or in Curse story's] And Sex, or coochy-poochy is surely not Love!

Pssssst, Death is an inverse phenomona-of-OFF, and Birth is the inverse phenomona-of-ON; This happens because "IT" loves LIFE "iTSELF" and "IT" in-turn needs to rely-On DEATH; or else there is No Such thing as "ETERNITY AVOiDING LONLiNESS" (includes MATH, like in; INFiNITY & FiNITY) through each and every 1-of-US ANNiMATE(s), aka PHOTON Essences; appearing Justly for a 'time' (in manmade clocks & Religion system) via Real 'TiME' (our appearing now then disappearing again & again via "IT"s own given TEMPERATURE & Frequency (Cosmic Heartbeat) , for US, thereFrom & thereTo.

iMAGINE, another Future bound "ESHATOLOGICAL POSSIBILITiES OF ONEs (Immortal MEMEtic) SELF"!? includes All In-Animates through "IT"s own stuff & THiNGS; hence OUR Holyi Cosmic immortal Motion, 'Avoiding Lonliness' for LOVE [Life's] sake!"

"People Need People" WHEREFORE: "iT too needs IT" for support in the holy [Eternal Heartbeat in Warmth] PALINDROME sweeping IT's things & Stuffs round & around.... for "iTSELF", only to be again!And that includes ANY-[Unique]-1!

Vote, YES! TO Help ease those whom have No family to take care of them during each Carbon-based n Biofinite-Deaths great momentuum, aka "END OF [ANOTHER] TIME(s)" moment.

Hint: H-O-P-E via "IT" is our Best-Friend! Note: NO-Hope; no Future. Therefore: WE [i] was never Created, nor can i [WE] ever be destroyed!!! Includes The-GOOD or the-BAD "Photon Essences" in "Photon-Mist forms!" So How can anyone "Immortal" BEGONE from our midst?!

SECRET: Your Current Parents (Humanly-Planed Ye, US, i, or not) art not the only real Parents you've ever Had. And in the Future, again, Ye will have different parents (Conscious or not!). Soooo

PEACE! PAZ! SHALOM! AHIMSA! SALAAM! ZHINGYU! FRiEDEN! MiR .....

"I think my foot is bleeding..."

Let me take a shot at it, (I often do!). Mine bleeds too! I am Mortal! Whoops, wait a tick.

Tendinitis. Damn. Now I may have to hobble to my end of life issues, for one cannot just jibberjabber around whilst in the fray. Sally forth!

Medic! I'll kill hees tendoncy to be slow, yet!

Justillthennow,

"Some of that skirmishing lot can be as shifty and of dubious loyalty as any of The Lollygaggers."

Their loyalty is not in question, Justillthennow, but betimes their aim is awry.

C'est la guerre, where whoopsies are de rigueur, despite all desolees.

I think my foot is bleeding...

Sri Generalissimo Ornery Onofrio!

Hail thee, great master! I should have known that it was you directing fire at those petty annoyances, The Lollygaggers. Decrepit crew, and not to be trusted.

Speaking of trustworthiness, those skirmishers of yours.... take care! Eyes up, tip tip, helmet down. Some of that skirmishing lot can be as shifty and of dubious loyalty as any of The Lollygaggers.

Ruffians and scallywags, them. Hiding in trees, taking pot shots, hit and run... looking for maximum damage for minimum loss.

What ever happened to noble warfare?

Gimpi - Thank YOU. I am with you 100%.
If we could all just be kinder to people with differing opinions, we would solve so many of our issues.
I have never understood why there is so much hatred just because someone thinks differently. The Christians are just as guilty, if not more so, as everyone else.

Hello JTTN,
Thank you for not lambasting me into eternity. As a self-admitted lollygagger, I realize that I am no match for some of the skirmishers!

"With a bullhorn one can get their message across all the better, if disrupting the peace and disregarding contradictory opinions is not a problem. Yet debate and communal forward movement may well become compromised."

Those with the bullhorn have lost the message. Their message is not really the real message. The message is not hate. The real message is one of love.
I may agree on some of their points, but I do not agree with the way they go about it.

Accepting the gift that Jesus gave me doesn't preclude me from being self liberated from what I self loathe. I accept His forgiveness, but still examine myself to be a better human. His forgiveness does not give me license to be an ass because, well whatever, I'll be forgiven. On the contrary, it makes me want to attempt to do more of the "right thing" with the right attitude. And when I mess it all up, I can take comfort (yes, that warm blanket)in knowing that I am forgiven. But I still must come to terms with my mistakes within myself.

Erikajune, Thank you so much for your kind reply. It's kind of sad that simple curiosity about other people's beliefs has become a bit unusual.

Several other Christians have made similar comments about the "Pharisees." I do understand that Christians are no more a monolithic group than Democrats or Spaniards. I'm always interested to see how different folks within any movement or belief system respond to it. It's important to remember, we're all individuals.

And, you're sure on the money, none of us are perfect. I'm just trying to launch an one-woman "politeness" movement on blogs and such. If we could just be a bit more pleasant to each other, I think a lot of the whole "culture-war" stuff would go away, or at least be reduced to a "culture-dialogue."

Justillthennow,

My skirmishers are just ahead of the main column, picking at the foe. Don't want to waste powder and shot on a mere gang of lollygaggers :^)

Hello Erikajune,

I like your perspective and respect your commitment to your belief. All is good.

"The religious Christian Conservatives that are so loud, vocal and well, unappealing, are not what it is about."

Yet that very tactic is what drives the attention to themselves, and they, like the squeaky wheel, become central in the debate and indicative of the whole of the 'Christian community'. With a bullhorn one can get their message across all the better, if disrupting the peace and disregarding contradictory opinions is not a problem. Yet debate and communal forward movement may well become compromised.

"And this is where Jesus comes in. He has made it so that we are forgiven."

That is a nice blanket to wrap oneself in, and comfortable. Who does not want that? But under that guise one can do anything, effectively, and feel assured of some form of righteousness post-mortem. That simplistic and consequential insert, that 'God' sacrificed his 'only Son' to cleanse us of sin, so long as we believe only in Him, never fit for me. To me, God does not judge me as other than I am. I do. It is me that need to self-forgive of the actions and non actions that I have chosen in life. Upon being self liberated of what I self loathe, I give myself a cleansing and so an uplifting.

This happens as a Christian, but is not dependent on Christianity or Jesus, in my experience. However, if belief in Jesus works for one, as it seems to for you, then you are giving yourself what you need. All is good.

Your "Pharisees" would like to legislate us into state enforced obedience to their definition of Biblical morality. Now all is not so good.

Onofrio,

"Morally and intellectually dubious...to say the least."

You are a master of verse, Onofrio, and subtle understatement to be sure, but "dubious" goes past understatement to the point it almost doesn't apply.

But then, if the Bible tells me so, then none of the rest matters, does it. to dubiosity!

Gimpi - Thank you for your addressing my question. I can completely relate to wanting to understand something. I like to read the posts by the Jews for that very reason.

And I agree with you that faith is a word that has different meaning to different people. People are wired differently, they have different experiences which further the way they understand things, and purposely develop different parts of themselves. I get it.

The religious Christian Conservatives that are so loud, vocal and well, unappealing, are not what it is about. Jesus in the bible even talks about these people - they are Pharisees. They are religious. They have made it all to be about rules, regulations, holier-than-thouness. That isn't what it should be about.
But the thing is, they are just people. None of us are perfect. I may be able to see that about "them", but in no means am I perfect and I do lots of crappy things too. And this is where Jesus comes in. He has made it so that we are forgiven.

I don't have all the answers. Like the points that Onofrio brings up. Which is why I like to defend my faith. It is challenging, and if maybe I helped someone to consider Jesus - that would make my day.
Because according to my faith, that is what it is all about.

There is much disagreement under the wide umbrella of Chritianity about the "right" way. The bible addresses this too. It shouldn't be this way, but it is. So, until the day I know everything, I will eat the meat and spit out the bones.

Ha! And why be snarky at all? Question I ask myself all the time!

"All snarkiness on my part aside, if you are so sure that there is no God, why read this column on faith? Why care what someone else might believe if there is no eternal consequence?"
Just wondering.
Posted by: erikajune

erikajune, I can address this for myself. As I was trying to explain to another poster, I am not really able to understand what most people mean by "having faith." The idea of believing something without physical evidence is just not a part of my mental landscape. I seem to be hard-wired in such a way as to be only to be able to firmly believe in what can be rationally proven. People's minds work differently, and they don't even mean the same thing when they use certain words. 'Faith' is one of those words. 'Freedom' is another.

That difficulty in understanding faith is what drew me to this site. I'm interested in understanding how other people's minds work, and since faith is very foreign to my mental landscape, the idea interests me a great deal. I'm interested less in what people believe than why they believe it. I'm also open to the possibility that there is something beyond the physical, but the leap from "something beyond the physical" to "the Bible is the inerrant word of God" is more of a jump than I can (or want to) make.

I also have concerns about the political actions of some religious conservatives. There seems to be a strong belief in some religious conservatives that they must control the behaviors, if not the beliefs, of others. (See the idea that the word 'freedom' has many definitions.) That frankly scares me. I don't want people telling me how to live, and I don't fully trust them to be willing to leave me in peace. And, just an aside, if you have to leave your "snarkiness" aside, why be snarky at all?

Bornagain7 to Plasma411:

"God might be seeking your heart even though you fight Him."

OR he might have predestined you to an eternity of conscious torment from the foundation of the world, in which case your fighting is just the God-directed process of heart-hardening. You know, like Pharaoh...

Given that "many are called but few are chosen", the latter is far, far more likely. Esau outnumbers Jacob by a hundred to one...probably more.

Can't be helped...just God's perfect justice working itself out against the vessels of his wrath. God loves to express himself, and he's created a whole universe where he gets to be really, REALLY wrathful. Just 'cause...well, 'cause he can! SO wrathful that he's set on keeping up the scare for zillions who were, who are, and who are yet to come - countless ordinary folks - who fall short of his white hot holy light...and haven't managed to become Calvinist sectarians before full-time, like Mark Driscoll.

That's Hell.

The Calvinian God - torturer deluxe. You KNOW it makes sense...

Driscoll

- endorses the eternal torture of the 98% + of humanity that are not members of his Calvinian sect.

- holds an Iron Age aetiology to be fact.

Morally and intellectually dubious...to say the least.

plasma411-

"Even if there were a god, im physically/intellectually incapable of believing in him."

I too was physically/intellectually unable to accept God, but He opened my heart and removed the scales from my eyes.

I was living in darkness unable to see my sin. Now I see by no work of my own. God gives us grace as a gift. Jesus lived the life that I could not.

We are all unable to seek God, it is God that chooses to seek us.
Romans 3:10-12 (English Standard Version)
10as it is written:

(A) "None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
So the statement "Even if there were a god, im physically/intellectually incapable of believing in him.” is truth.

God might be seeking your heart even though you fight Him.

Katavo, why do you care - especially if it is, as you put it, nonsense?
If you wish to have a conversation with someone who is a believer in order to learn why they believe, as I said before, I am willing to answer questions. And if you truly wish to engage and have conversations, a good starting point is to consider someone else's belief without mocking. Many "Christians" belittle others' beliefs, and that certainly doesn't get them very far, does it?

Believe me, I do consider all things.

consider, erikajune, that we are interested in learning how you people can believe this stuff. What mental games you play in your head to make this nonsense work for you.

I also find it quite entertaining to read the different variations of belief arguing with each other over which is the Real Truth.

And as well, since we aren't going to be visiting your churches and there is no church for atheists, this is one of the few places where we can have any conversations with your kind at all.

Consider those things too. Use your imagination. We aren't seeking your gods, or any body else's gods either.

Erika i don't think this is the right format, this string of comments have been kinda hijacked already by us.

At the risk of putting myself out there for much ridicule and mockery...if you truly want to know why deists/theists exist, and care to ask questions, I would be happy to answer about my beliefs.

I won't try to "convert" you, as I believe that really isn't my job anyhow. It is just a good exercise for me to defend my beliefs.

Maybe there is some seeking, but only because i find the notion of god so completely absurd and honestly dont understand why deists/theists exist.

Even if there were a god, im physically/intellectually incapable of believing in him. So he can make me burn for his own inadequacies.

I am sorry if you thought I was threatening you with eternal hellfire. That certainly was not my intent. Only that followers of Christ care what you believe because they believe that there is an eternal consequence.

I was not trying to get you to change your opinion. I was curious as to why you were reading a column regarding faith. And, I suppose just suggesting that perhaps there was some seeking going on.

Wikipedia doesnt tell you to stone to death people who pick up sticks on the sabbeth!

Wikipedia 1 Bible 0

Wikipedia doesnt say the world was created in 7 days a few thousand years ago, by an omnipotent god that needed a rest somehow

Wikipedia 2 Bible 0

this would be fun.

Those two links i gave you were heavily referenced by outside sources so i dont see your problem.

You could read Dawkins, "The Greatest Show on Earth" somehow i doubt you will.

I'm here not because of gods plan, but because i like to argue and represent my point of view. Threatening me with eternal hellfire is not a convincing argument because you cant point a gun to my head and tell me to believe. I have always been an atheist.

ah, yes. wikipedia.
I guess that is where we should agree to disagree. I will continue to believe in the bible as the word of God, written through man.
And you can continue to believe in Wikipedia as the truth of all things, again written (and ever evolving) by man.

All snarkiness on my part aside, if you are so sure that there is no God, why read this column on faith? Why care what someone else might believe if there is no eternal consequence? Do you never wonder or ponder what it might mean to you personally if God does indeed exist?
Just wondering.

Hello Pnearle,

You said, in a post to nevermeant:

"however, to use the estimated age of the planet as an excuse not to believe in God is naive. i speculate that the evidence your affirming as scientific truth you havent gathered on your own or even seen first hand. so basically you're "believing" the word of someone else, who has allegedly seen it and come to a conclusion."

If I may. The evidence that science forwards in support of it's theories and hypotheses are overwhelmingly vast. And it takes in quantifiable, measurable and verifiable data as "evidence" for it's claims. Different, but not so unlike a court of law, where claims and statements and alibis are put to the test, and where evidence is requested. The arms of 'Justice'. The claims of science can be backed up with proofs.

Bible centered Christianity lifts... the Bible, claiming that book, by the nature of it's unverifiable divine source and equally unverifiable claim of Truth, is and should be accepted as claimed ON FAITH.

The claims of the age of the Earth is not by itself a refutation of the existence of God. However, if the Bible is held up as literal and factual and TRUTHFUL, then it refutes itself, by false claim.

Christians would do better to stand in the TRUTH that the Bible is not the literal Word of God, which it clearly is not, having been written by the hands of numerous human authors, (as Mark Driscoll states in this essay, humans are ALL imperfect), and take the teachings of the Bible for the valuable lessons that it imparts to adherents. That would be more honest and more defensible.

You state: "truth by definition is absolute."

Perhaps by your definition. Yet, in the world that we live in, there is little to nothing that is absolute. Indeed, the one thing that is a constant, and so approached absolutism, is change. Another variation on the theme of change, (outside of the temporal nature of life, of course, and the inevitability of death), is evolution of life.

You can check with science for further defining of evolution. The assumption that truth is static is an assumption. It may be a less defensible definition as well, as what works better in this realm of creation is mutability and adaptability.

Peace.

I dont believe in absolute truths but thats an argument for another day.

As for evolution, evolution is as much of a fact as gravity as the fact that the earth is round
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_as_theory_and_fact

And for your random doubts about evolution this page should help you.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Objections_to_evolution

plasma 411: "Says who? Thats like someone saying the earth is round, and you going says who? There is mountains of evidence for the evolutionary process."

But we have proof that the earth is round. Actual proof from theory all the way to pictures. As far as evolution goes, it is still just a theory. There are many people wanting for it to be a truth, but there are parts and pieces missing. So just because many intelligent, super educated people want it to be a truth does not make it one.

Plasma411, I appreciate some of your arguments, such as who created the Creator? I don't have an answer for an Alpha and Omega, a Beginning and an End. But, I do know that God is mysterious and way beyond our imagination and wisdom. If we could explain God and understand Him, He wouldn't be God.

You think that because the large hadron collider broke its proof of god? (its about to go up again btw) hahhahahahhahahaha
That man evolved from rocks? hmmm ok.

Creation requires a creator? well who created the creator?

Plasma,

Do you honestly believe that everything in this world evolved out of nothing? Please present your "mountains of evidence" explaining how an intelligent human evolved from a rock incapable of thought. And where did the rock come from? Thin air? How's that large hadron colllider working out for you? Oh that's right, it failed.

I bet you didn't know that the Bible has more supporting evidence than any other historical document.

The truth is, creation requires a Creator. And the source of all creation is God.

Says who? Thats like someone saying the earth is round, and you going says who? There is mountains of evidence for the evolutionary process.

Animals do more than eat and breed. Mothers protect their young. All the great apes (humans included) have something of a communal bond. Does a bird not protect their young? Altruism exists because the survival of a member of the kin group may be of greater importance that the survival of the individual. You give animals too little credit. Remember you share 99% of your dna with chimps.

"how can a truth, something that's confirmed to be absolutely correct, evolve?"

Wow. So is genocide absolutely wrong? Is the killing innocent women and children absolutely wrong? Then why does God command both of them in the Bible?

Is it wrong to have more than one wife? Absolutely wrong?
See Old Testament.

Morals are, and have always been, culturally and socially determined. The bible advocates rape, slavery, genocide, infanticide, misogyny, and many more horrible things.
You can moan about there being a "new covenant" now and that God changed his mind or his morality "evolved", but what you can't do is say that Morality is Absolute.

Plasma-
Who decides what is or isn't a benefit to society? Just curious. If as you say we are all animals then moral law should have no place in "society". We like the rest of the animal kingdom should only be concerned with 2 things eating and f---ing.

plasma411 "Evolution is as close to an undeniable truth as one can get."

says who?

Evolution is as close to an undeniable truth as one can get. Sorry Mark but you are an animal as we all are. Your delusions of granduer are simply that delusions. Being animals doesnt mean we get to do whatever we want. We have a thing called society, that tells us certain things are acceptable. Disobey and one gets punished. Society determines these rules, by what benefits society the most. Its not terribly complicated.

PJS1965 "This is hardly convincing to non-believers who see the Bible as no more authoritative than any other book."

The Bible isn't just a book, it's a library collection of 66 books and letters, written by over 40 different authors, over a span of more than 1200 years, in 3 different original languages, not to mention the more than 1500 prophesies and predictions that happen in one book and are fulfilled in another.

I find it very interesting that self-professed atheists are not only reading, but actively participating in this conversation about faith. I, as a believer in Jesus as God, would not spend much time on a site about atheists and atheistic perspective. I am definitely not saying that those with a different view aren't welcome. I just find it interesting. Perhaps deep inside there is some searching going on?
Maybe something in your heart that draws you??

nevermeant:

how can a truth, something that's confirmed to be absolutely correct, evolve?

honestly, this line of reasoning is preposterous. either the color of the shirt your wearing is blue or it's a different color. that truth cannot metamorphicize over time and look differently at different times. either it's blue or not blue.

truth by definition is absolute.

either its wrong to murder your neighbor because his dog pee'd on your lawn or its not. lol

also, as a Follower of Christ i wholeheartedly admit that i DO NOT know how old the earth is. the Bible does not date the earth and the planet does not come with a "born on" date like a budweiser.

however, to use the estimated age of the planet as an excuse not to believe in God is naive. i speculate that the evidence your affirming as scientific truth you havent gathered on your own or even seen first hand. so basically you're "believing" the word of someone else, who has allegedly seen it and come to a conclusion.

There's lots of problems with this kind of thinking. For starters the Bible is used as and assumed to be as the only authority. This is hardly convincing to non-believers who see the Bible as no more authoritative than any other book.

Many Christians seem to have this arrogant assumtion that the existence of God is a given and that the Bible is somehow a source immutible truth that applies universally to everyone. I do not agree.

All people everywhere are perfectly capable of doing good in the world without the redundant belief in God or religion. Actions and their results speak for themselves.

nevermeant - you refute this article by referencing wikipedia and Francis Collins?

I wouldnt yawn at Driscoll's presentation with those sources.

BTW - you say, how did Adam and Eve know it was WRONG to eat the fruit BEFORE they knew right from wrong?? No Christian ever seems to have an answer to that question

Genesis records that God told them they were not to eat of that tree (before they ate from it). Maybe thats why they knew. And who says they didnt know the difference between right and wrong prior to sinning?

(By the way, how did Adam and Eve know it was WRONG to eat the fruit BEFORE they knew right from wrong?? No Christian ever seems to have an answer to that question).

Genesis 2:15-17
15The LORD God took the man and put him in the garden of Eden to work it and keep it. 16And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, "You may surely eat of every tree of the garden, 17but of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die."

God being wise and intelligent made man also intelligent. He clearly gave him the ability to understand Him and truth from him. God would not make a creature with the intention of having a relationship with it and not also give that creature (humans) the ability to understand him.

Therefore, when God gave Adam this command, both Adam and God understood that Life was good and Death was bad. Obedience to God is therefore right, and disobedience wrong.

I hope this answers your question.

Good job Mark.
Ryan McInerney

Pastor Mark was not implying that only atheists are bad people, what he is saying is that all people are bad. The only one who is good is Jesus.

"(By the way, how did Adam and Eve know it was WRONG to eat the fruit BEFORE they knew right from wrong?? No Christian ever seems to have an answer to that question)."

Genesis 2:15-17 - "The LORD God took the man and put him in the Garden of Eden to work it and take care of it. And the LORD God commanded the man, "You are free to eat from any tree in the garden; but you must not eat from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, for when you eat of it you will surely die."

So all atheists are bad people? "When bad people do good?" Least you are more overt than Colson.

This maybe suprise you but quoting scripture is not the best way to argue with an atheist.

Quoting calvin is even worse. He is the man who said we would gain pleasure in heaven from watching people in hell suffer.

And you use that guy as means to argue?

Nevermeant, you first make the statement "'m curious if Mark Driscoll ignores the whole of science..." and then argue that his belief about human history, which you admit you don't know, makes him wrong. But if you don't know what his belief is, how do you know he's wrong, and how can you refute his statement?

Thanks for this post Pastor Mark you did a fantastic job laying out some often overlooked or misunderstood truths. Thank you Washington Post for provding this venue for the truth to be told!

"Even those who do not believe in a god, or worship Jesus as the only God, cannot altogether erase the deep imprint of right and wrong because God stamped it on their very nature so that, despite being marred by sinful rebellion, it cannot be denied or ignored."

This argument holds no weight. It's special pleading. At the 8th grade level. It can be denied and ignored quite easily. Ready?

I'm curious if Mark Driscoll ignores the whole of science and thinks humans have only been around for a few thousand years with "right and wrong" imprinted on their hearts, or if he understands that humans have been around, in present form, for at least 100,000 years (Conservative Christian estimate c/o Francis Collins).

So we have 95% of human history occurring before God created the Earth or Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit. (By the way, how did Adam and Eve know it was WRONG to eat the fruit BEFORE they knew right from wrong?? No Christian ever seems to have an answer to that question).

So for 96,000 years we have humans living, dying, searching for food, fighting each other, gathering in groups, trying to stay alive. Is it really such a great stretch of the imagination to see how Morality arises from completely natural means?

Example:
One tribe is particularly violent and doesn't hold regard for other tribe member's huts or belongings...that tribe extinguishes itself. Whereas, a tribe where the humans have "learned" to cooperate to fight off predators and to gather food, will have a better chance of survival. Altruism and compassion are found EVERYWHERE in the animal kingdom. Is it really that far of a leap from "i'll scratch your back, you scratch mine" to "do unto others..."??? In fact, other religious traditions have the "golden rule" as a part of their teachings thousands of years before Jesus was around. It seems that altruistic behavior in simple survival context provides enough groundwork for "modern morality".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution_of_morality

yawn.

amen Mark!

Great Stuff Mark...glad to see you in this venue!