Admired, but From a Distance

Ransom:
How is the weather on Perelandra?

Wow...All I really want to know is about that Eclati crap...what is that guy smoking?? Hey for the rest of ya'll seriously, do ya'll even think of all the energy it takes to keep walking around & around in this revolving door argument..The Mormons on here will scream "we are the best at following" the rest will scream "we are the best at listening" All I want to know is how all this energy in pointing to the 'others' as wrong really accomplishes anything other than making all who search for Christ the Messiah :(turned off:(???

but for what it is worth without all ya'll bickering amongst yourselves I would be rather bored at work, so I say THANK YOU for keeping me entertained..Peace be With you All!!!
-ransom-

Eyeswideopen - thank you.

Religion the first WMD!

Go follow what ever religion want (you will still be buying into some dudes tales, therefore you are and always will be a "follower")

Oh and for the idiot that said mormons have changed over time............every religion has! If they didn't they would go out of Bis!

To those confused about baptism for the dead:

1) The Bible states that all must people must be baptized in order to return to the presence of God.

2) The vast majority of persons who have lived on the earth have never heard of Christ or had the opportunity for baptism.

3) Baptism for the dead allows these people an opportunity to accept the gospel and the Savior.

4) The deceased person must accept the ordinance for it to be valid. No one can be "forced" to accept a baptism that they do not wish to accept.

5) God does not send unbaptized babies and children to hell. Little children are perfect and without sin before him. They need no baptism of any kind.

Ryan -

You said "...not because we have to, but because we get to and can do nothing else."

I think a lot of people on here would agree that there have been many people who have at one time said they accepted Jesus as their Saviour and have gone on to do some pretty horrible things. Are they saved? Let me guess no they never were?

See my post above. We are saved by God's Grace alone but our response must include good works, not just a singular act of faith.

Scott your treatment of James 2:14-26 is off. Look at the Greek and the context to which James is writing (those who think they are Christians but not) and you will see that he is not saying works factor into our salvation, but that a good tree will always bear good fruit. Not that the fruit makes the tree good but that a good tree can not help but bear good fruit. Read Paul in Rom. 3:28 we are saved by faith. And by that faith and being made into a new creation we do good works, not because we have to, but because we get to and can do nothing else.

More for Canyon:
Matthew 7:21 (King James Version)
Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

From a Christian perspective, when Jesus returns, I would bet that many excellent human beings, who have striven to follow God in the best way they knew how, will find that they recognize Jesus when they see him because they have become like him. The rest of us who have spent our lives bickering may find ourselves to be strangers.

...and I think it's harsh on "mainstream Judeo/Christians" to say that they consider Islam or Buddhism a cult. I don't think they're quite that close-minded.

Sorry WOW!!, I have to disagree with you on this one. Islam, Buddhism, even Pentecostalism are pretty mainstream in my book. Astrology, uh... less so. New Agers... well... As for Hmong, I thought it was an ethnic group rather than a religion. I think he was just trying to say "Our neighbourhoods have become very diverse." I don't read anything more than that into it. Maybe I'm wrong, but if he's pursuing some kind of exclusionary strategy it's a darn subtle one, and exclusionists aren't known for their subtlety generally.

Eyeswideopen,
Thank you for responding to my comment. For repayment of your kindness, allow me to argue with you.
Why didn't he put more "mainstream" religions in this list? Why didn't he put Catholicism in here? Is he Catholic? Why didn't Mr. Marty put Methodists in this list? Is he Methodist?
What he did was start the list with "New Agers" and then listed other religions or denominations that mainstream Judeo/Christian would call "cults".
I feel that he is stating the rhetoric of his denomination.

KATAKAHA: The supernatural being Canyon, all three great faiths believe in is Devil. Faith is all Devil requires to get ya into his heaven, BKA hell.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul but don't expect to get much for it, unless of course you're a minister. The big bucks go to those who lead the multitudes to hell. The faithful pay the Devil's fee to his ministers. Moses was the ogiginal seller of soul and reaped the greatest reward possible, king (absolute dictator) of the Israelites, the chosen people of ______.

Are Mormons, Christians, Muslims, Jews, anyone who faiths the being that "lives in fire" likely to get into God's heaven?

Canyon -

I am sorry but your understanding of why religions say we are not saved by faith alone is way off base. I can't speak for everyone but here is a Catholic explination.

The Catholic Church does not now, nor has it ever, taught a doctrine of salvation by works...that we can “work” our way into Heaven.

Second, show me where in the Bible does it teach that we are saved by “faith alone.” You can’t, because it doesn’t. The only place in all of Scripture where the phrase “Faith Alone” appears, is in James...James 2:24, where it says that we are not...not...justified (or saved) by faith alone.

So, one of the two main pillars of Protestantism...the doctrine of salvation by faith alone...not only doesn’t appear in the Bible, but the Bible actually says the exact opposite - that we are not saved by faith alone

Third, if works have nothing to do with our salvation...then how come every passage in the N.T. that I know of that talks about judgment says we will be judged by our works, not by whether or not we have faith alone? We see this in Rom 2, Matthew 15 and 16, 1 Ptr 1, Rev 20 and 22, 2 Cor 5, and many, many more verses.

Fourth, if we are saved by faith alone, why does 1 Cor 13:13 say that love is greater than faith? Shouldn’t it be the other way around?

As Catholics we believe that we are saved by God’s grace alone. We can do nothing, apart from God’s grace, to receive the free gift of salvation. We also believe, however, that we have to respond to God’s grace. Protestants believe that, too. However, many Protestants believe that the only response necessary is an act of faith; whereas, Catholics believe a response of faith and works is necessary...or, as the Bible puts it in Galatians 5:6, “For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumsion is of any avail, but faith working through love...faith working through love...just as the Church teaches.

But Canyon Shearer, you are using faith vs. works as a kind of shiboleth. You are making a distinction without a difference. Most of Christianity vehemently disagrees with your approach. A profession of faith is not a magic phrase that gets you into heaven regardless of what you are or do. It is true faith that is required in Christianity, and if that faith does not produce good actions, it can hardly be called true (if you've read your Luther). And good works increase the faith of the believer as they bring her closer to the Lord. I don't know of any Christians knowledgable in their faith who believe anymore that there is some finite amount of good actions or righteousness that can buy a spot in Heaven. That was the heresy that allowed the selling of indulgences. All Christians, including Mormon Christians, believe that salvation comes through the atonement of Jesus Christ. Your analysis is as poor as your condemnation is quick. The Bible is full of passages such as the following:

James 2:14-26 (New American Standard Bible)
Faith and Works
What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?If a brother or sister is without clothing and in need of daily food, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, be warmed and be filled," and yet you do not give them what is necessary for their body, what use is that? Even so faith, if it has no works, is dead, being by itself.But someone may well say, "You have faith and I have works; show me your faith without the works, and I will show you my faith by my works. "You believe that God is one You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder. But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless? Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar? You see that faith was working with his works, and as a result of the works, faith was perfected;and the Scripture was fulfilled which says, "AND ABRAHAM BELIEVED GOD, AND IT WAS RECKONED TO HIM AS RIGHTEOUSNESS," and he was called the friend of God. You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.In the same way, was not Rahab the harlot also justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out by another way? For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Matthew 16:24-27 KJV
Then said Jesus unto his disciples, If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.For what is a man profited, if he shall gain the whole world, and lose his own soul? or what shall a man give in exchange for his soul?For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works.

Matthew 25:31-46 NASB
"But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne.
"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats;
and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.
"Then the King will say to those on His right, 'Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.
'For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me something to drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.'
"Then the righteous will answer Him, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, and feed You, or thirsty, and give You something to drink?
'And when did we see You a stranger, and invite You in, or naked, and clothe You?
'When did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?'
"The King will answer and say to them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to Me.'
"Then He will also say to those on His left, 'Depart from Me, accursed ones, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;for I was hungry, and you gave Me nothing to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me nothing to drink;I was a stranger, and you did not invite Me in; naked, and you did not clothe Me; sick, and in prison, and you did not visit Me.'
"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?'
"Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.'
"These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."

Many Christians these days, including Mormons, reject the idea that God would send to a flaming and eternal hell all those who did not have faith in Jesus, even those who never heard of him. Mormons deal with this problem explicitly (as do the Catholics in their own way) with their doctrine of continued teaching during the time between death and resurrection. If you want to condemn Mormons and Catholics for believing that God is just, and that he would not condemn people who never had a decent chance of accepting him, go right ahead. I think they would consider it an honor to be condemned by you on that basis. Is God so narcissistic that anyone who speaks his name he will save while all who don't will be damned? Surely Christianity is more than a magic word cult, a parody of gnosticism.

Uh, dude, you have it wrong. He is saying that in today's society everyone from kooky cultish believers to adherents of mainstream religions (like buddhism or islam) live in our communities. He's assuming we understand their differentiation, not lumping them together.

"Today, with the growth of American pluralism, when everyone from New Agers to Hmong to Astrologers to Muslims to Pentecostals to Buddhists live "down the block," Mormons benefit from the protective coloration which such wild diversity promotes."

I think that Newsweek should make the people they use for these stories state their religious denomination.
Mr. Marty is obviously not a Muslim or Buddhist or Pentecostal or a member of any other denomination he listed here. But what he has done, or attempted to do is to make all of these (including Mormonism) seem like cults.
Mr. Marty is using this opportunity provided by Newsweek to "color" or "brainwash" the readers of this article. He is speaking his denominations rhetoric.
Why didn't he include Baptists? This is a younger religious belief than Muslims. Why didn't he include Lutherans in this list?
I at first believed that these articles would encourage communication among those who follow a higher calling and those that follow an internal calling. However, I see that I am wrong on this point. Why are people attacking each other's beliefs in the comments posted? It is what Newsweek is truly trying to accomplish. Their "highly important" guest writers start this attacking ball rolling.

Isn't the problem that "mainstream" christians have with Mormons based on the obvious fact, which few people mention because of the whiff of bigotry, that Joseph Smith was obviously a total charlatan, who you'd do badly to buy a car from let alone a theology? That the religion has changed course on everything from multiple marriage to acceptance of blacks based on dubious but well-timed "revelations" that essentially say "uh... forget what we were doing for the last 20 years... I've had a revelation that if we don't accept blacks or stop marrying a half-dozen 14-year-old girls the feds are going to shut us down" (that last part doesn't usually get included)? So the religion fosters kooky splinter groups, who are all united in the understanding that you can't tack a boat that often without losing some deckhands.

If you've kept reading to here, I appreciate it. I am, although it is belied by what I've said thus far, a tremendously open-minded person, which has led me to accept god but look upon all religions as socio/anthropological phenomenons rather than anything resembling paths to whatever. But I have read every major holy book I could get my hands on, from the bible (umpteen times) to the koran, to the upanishads... you name it. In each book I found nuggets of interesting wisdom and much outdated sociological commentary. But only when I pursued the effort to include the book of mormon did I get a tenth of the way through, put the book down, and say "omigod what a complete load of bunkus!"

Every holy book I've read has led me to understand how they can serve as the foundation for a major religion. But the book of mormon? You gotta be kidding me. I confronted a mormon friend of mine with that, and she replied that every holy book, read to the letter, contains much that beggars the imagination. That may be true, but what I'm willing to accept as the limitations of knowledge in a book compiled of stories that date back to the dawn of written language I'm not willing to accept in a book written in the mid-19th century.

Mormons, my apologies for the rant but unless the church is able to face these perceptions, which are truly at the root of any acceptance challenges you face, then it will be a fruitless effort. The only acceptance mormons find is in their scrubbed-clean lifestyle and social values: they're okay to have as neighbours in a good suburb. But everyone, to a man (or woman), who is not mormon but is exposed to the most basic precepts of the religion think it's laughable. The uphill challenge of acceptance is not based on bigotry or persecution, as mormons would like to believe: it's based on a slack-jawed disbelief that anyone smart enough to be a doctor, lawyer, or presidential candidate (although the threshold of that last one has been lowered of late) would be crazy enough to believe the cart-load of bunkum that is the mormon theology. And no U of Chicago pointy-head is going to admit that in print, but it's god's truth!

Cheerio!

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Hey, folks.

Wow, quite a bit of riled up people here. Too bad most of them aren't actually responding to Dr. Marty's comments, which were helpful and true if somewhat generic and innocuous. Certainly he knows better than to engage in public discourse in a polemical manner, such as is evident in most of the posts here. ah well... eventually we will all be Rush Limbaughs, Sean Hannitys, Al Frankens, and Bill O'Reillys. There will be no Martin Martys left. Our public discourse will be full of vitriol and unreasoned blubbering, with no space left for mutual respect, listening, and principled disagreement.

That being said... people are people. Mormons and evangelical Christians and Muslims and Jews and atheists. People are people, in that we are all flawed and we all screw up and sometimes we manage to get things right. Sure, Mormons are fine folks, but they aren't by nature or by nurture any better than anyone else. Now, in terms of their theology... can we agree that it is very different? Every faith group attempts to distinguish itself from the rest, tries to explain how it is different, how it has something new, and inherently better, to offer. Otherwise, why would they exist? Some go farther afield than others in their "differentness"--for instance, Christians have the entire New Testament. Islam has the Koran, which explicitly rejects Christianity. The LDS has the Book of Mormon, marking it as an extremely different and innovative faith, regardless of the arguable degree of continuity between the Bible and the BOM. That doesn't make it bad or wrong. But it certainly does make it non-Christian, just as orthodox Christianity is non-Jewish, but draws upon Jewish religious, cultural, historical, and scriptural foundations.

What marked early Mormon history was the rejection, oppression, and alienation of Mormons through hatred and religious violence by mainstream Americans. In turn, the Mormons embraced their isolation and alienation, turning it into a strong insularity and sense of community, sense of autonomy. They also, for better or worse, embraced the use of violence as a defense against those who had formerly persecuted them. What is most remarkable about 20th and 21st century Mormonism is its almost-overwhelming desire for religious and civil acceptance, for being welcomed into the American and Christian mainstream. The LDS has done everything possible to persuade others that Mormons are religiously and culturally "normal" and "safe." Just reading these posts is a testament to the depth of this desire for acceptance among Mormons. Sure, sure, we all want to be accepted and not looked at with suspicion. But this marks a tremendous turnaround from earlier attitudes and experience of Mormons, and so is worth noting.

This is understandable, but rings a bit hollow in just one respect. Mormons really are not Christians in a Biblical or theological sense. And that's okay! There's nothing wrong with that, at least from my perspective! But "gaining entrance" into orthodox Christianity is not something that can be demanded or can be manipulated or depends on public opinion like gaining acceptance into the American cultural, economic, and political mainstream. Being part of orthodox Christianity doesn't depend on what others think of you, be it good or ill--it depends on what you claim to believe, and whether that sits within or without the historic and ongoing confessions of the Christian faith. Mormon theology, Mormon beliefs, Mormon practices are certainly fine and acceptable within this religiously pluralistic society we have in the United States. But it is important for Mormons, and any group at all, not to let their desire for "acceptance" lead them into denying their own faith claims, their distinctive religious identity, or into minimizing their distinctiveness in a deliberate and misleading way. Better to be proud and honest about who you are and what you believe, in its distinctiveness. Let others hear you and judge for themselves what label or another to place on you. The only thing that matters is that you know who you are and what you believe, and that you be honest about that to yourself and others.

Anon:

I never said the Mormons came in for a drink of alchohol or anything like that. They are allowed water aren't they? Get a clue before you chastize me brother.

Canyon,

Sounds like it's gonna be a good night out, if we could ever get Marco to pony up the dough.

Personally, I am not gonan vote for a republican, whether he's a mormon or a christian. My politics are a bit too liberal, and I'd like to think there is a better option out there. I doubt I'd vote for Hillary, well....she's more flip-flopped than Kerry ever was. Guliani........naw, so he helped to rebuild New York after 9/11......... that's his biggest jump on point right there.
I'd probably lean more towards Obama. And NOT because Oprah Winfrey says so.

But hey, who you pick is up to you. It just gets my nads seeing people vote for a guy because of what religion he is. My wife's sister and her friend voted for G.W. not because they new the issues, but because he believed in God, and was a strong christian. Not the best kind of reasoning, and that ticks me off.
Vote for the person that will do the best job. Vote for the guy or girl that isn't gonna embarass the country if and when he or she is re-elected.

If I could, I'd run, but none of the lobbysits would like me. I'd boot em all out of Washington. But I do think the USA needs a Bald president(by choice). That way, you can see me sweat when the questions are too hard. Then you'll know whether or not I was telling the truth.

And I'd have an open bar at my iduction. Vote for Russell D. anyone?

I just have to say, after reading most of these posts...don't any of you have anything better to do than to blast one another for your beliefs?

Seriously - I grew up Evangelical (lost most of the faith) - but what ever happened to just being a good person?!? I think it's SUPER close-minded to believe that in order to get into Heaven or Shangrila - or wherever - that you MUST believe this...or that...or this.

Can't we just get along and accept one another? I highly doubt Jesus/God would want everyone to be so judgemental.

Question - Who said "Surely, I come quickly".

Answer - Some poor bloke who was suffering from premature ejaculation.

There is one glaring, irreconcilable difference between Mormonism and true Christianity.

To repeat the most important verse in the Bible, "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast." - Ephesians 2:8-9

Mormons do not believe this verse. I once asked a Mormon what he thought of the verse, "By grace are ye saved through faith, accompanied by works; this is the gift of God, so that the righteous may boast." He looked at me and said, "Yeah, that's right." Then I opened my Bible and he got really mad. Ephesians 2:8-9 destroys the Mormon faith...but like all christianists, they don't read their Bibles for what the Bible says, but rather what they want the Bible to say.

If I spin it right, I can make the Bible say, "Canyon Shearer is God." It doesn't even take much rearranging of letters...just a snippet from Canaan and a Y from Yawhweh...Shearer is mentioned with shepards...no problem, must be true.

That is called Eisegesis; reading the Bible to say what you want it to say.

The Bible is the least ambiguous of ANY religious book, it says what it means. When you read the Bible to see what it actually says, this is called Exogesis...there is NO doubt whatsoever when you read the Bible for what it says. By grace are ye saved through faith, not of works.

But then we have the problem of your eisegesis understanding of James. It really takes some amazing contortion and malicious reading to make James say anything along the lines of Mormonism.

Imagine a jet engine...we'll call this engine you. In order for a jet engine to work, it must have kerosene, we'll call kerosene faith. A jet engine without kerosene is dead. A jet engine with kerosene produces thrust, thrust is works. A jet engine that has kerosene but doesn't produce thrust is worthless. The works are a product of faith, not a prerequisite. If we see a jet engine working, we can only assume that kerosene is inside. But a jet engine is not the only source of thrust; there are lots of ways to produce thrust...not all of them are based in kerosene. (On second thought, this analogy might not be good for a one-path sermon...but the point of works being evidence of faith stands.)

I think John MacArthur put it well, "James describes spurious faith as pure hypocrisy, mere cognitive assent, devoid of any verifying works-no different from the demons' belief. Obviously, there is more to saving faith than merely conceding a set of facts."

So what about the works of Mormons? The part that Mormons miss the point on the most is that Mormonism is a works-based religion; just as Islam, just as Jehovah's Witnesses, just as Catholicism, just as many, many more. There is no difference between Mormonism and any other religion, yet somehow they think there is. The Bible says that our works are as filthy rags.

Imagine we are standing before a judge. There are TEN definite evidences of our guilt, we are criminals, no denying it, the punishment for our crime is death. The judge is about to pass judgement and we suddenly have the bright idea to bring up our works. "Judge!" we scream, "Judge! I have walked door to door and told people about you and how you are from Mars and love all men, I have helped little old ladies across the street, donated 10% of my money to an organization you endorse, and I even washed and waxed your car before the trial."

The judge says, "That's all fine, you should do good things, but the fact is that you've broken a very serious law and no amount of good works have any bearing on your innocence or guilt." Your sentence is death...no matter how many works you have done, because they have absolutely no bearing on your guilt, innocence, or salvation.

Along other lines, sometimes I don't know where to start with such an easy target as Mormonism; definitely the easiest place is the ridiculous and almost completely failed prophecies of it's cult founder:
http://www.exmormon.org/prophet.htm

I am so glad to see all of the responses, I had briefly worried that my two-edged sword had dulled and lost it's effectiveness. Whoa me of little faith.

I don't know where to start with a reply, so I'll start with someone I recognize.

Russell, it is nice to see you once again. Indeed Marco Polo owes us the first round, I'll get the second.

I agree completely with you that different faiths can co-exist and create for a wonderful and eclectic country.

I'd love to throw out another analogy here. Imagine we're all peddlers traveling on a train together, traveling Eastward from Los Angeles, we're hoping to visit Edinburgh, in the United Kingdom. We are having a great time, we finally get to enjoy that beer together in the bar car, and the conversations are profound to no end. Up to Goose Bay, Canada we've been freeloading; but as you know, a train can't get from the North American continent to Caledonia. Along the way some of our friends get off the train; some early in Las Vegas, others late in Chicago, and some depart just prior to us reaching Goose Bay. In order to reach Edinburgh we need to board an airplane; but remember, we have no money because we're freeloaders; not only are we freeloaders, but we were born with an incredible inheritance from our Father; but in our youth we've squandered it.

Now the punchline, our Father, who knows we squandered our entire inheritance and sullied the family name, is the one that wants us in Scotland; He loves us very much, but there is a matter of thousands of miles of iceberg ridden Atlantic Ocean. The airplane ticket is ridiculously expensive, there is no way we can expect to purchase it. When we find out that the ticket has been purchased for us, we are allowed to board the airplane.

When we get off of the airplane in Edinburgh, there is our Father, and we are ecstatic to see him. You recount the story, "I don't know how I got here, I couldn't pay for the ticket." And He tells you, through tears, "I sold everything I owned, and I had to sell myself into indentured service to pay your ticket, but I am so happy to see you!" You break down and cry for forgiveness at wasting so much that now you are both paupers. Your Father forgives you all, you are reconciled together.

This is why it is so important that you receive that plane ticket, there is no other way to come Home. I am very much enjoying our journey together on the train of life, but I am terrified that you won't be on the airplane.

But now is the incredibleness...besides being forgiven and redeemed...our Father, after giving up EVERYTHING He owned, even unto death for your sake, He rose from the grave and rose to power to be the ruler of the whole world, and His righteousness is once again yours...if you'll receive that airplane ticket.

Russell, there is much for us to do on this train of life, but I'm warning you, from foreknowledge as well as limited-experience, that this train doesn't...nay, can't...go all the way, and our Father is the only one that can get us Home.

Thank you Rich Whitaker.
Amen.

If someone is worried about being baptised after they die, why would it matter? If baptism for the dead isn't of God then it won't matter so what's the worry? Because it is a true ordance that we all must perform, either living or vicariously for us.

I just got done reading through all the postings here, and frankly, I'm amazed!
I don't know why I should be, though. There's never been a shortage of people who think they know all about me, and don't.
I was born into the Church; grew up in it. Stuck with it for all these years. Still, didn't know half the stuff I needed to, I guess.
Married a Catholic once. After 25 years, his church still says we're living in sin. Not mine; never mine.
Our kids are going to hell. Never been baptized, you see. Always figured that was their choice. Now, from reading above, I find I should have forced them to join my church because apparently, that's what the LDS do.
Grew up in Gary, IN. Didn't realize, growing up there, that I was supposed to be prejudiced. I'm glad someone told me; supposed it's too late to teach my kids to be bigots, though, isn't it? That's me--always too late. Comes from that MST, I guess.
Most of my friends and shucks, none of my family are members of the Church. What does that make me? Sorry--don't believe non members are all going to hell. That's too close minded to even consider. But since I'm LDS, I'm supposed to be that close minded, aren't I?
Been to the Temple. Did baptism for the dead. First time at 14. I knew, even then, that it was a choice, and nothing was forced on anyone. And I was a kid.
Even now, when people I've known for years find out I'm LDS, they ask how many husbands I have. I tell them I have at least three more, and I rotate them out of the closet when I'm looking for a bigger paycheck.
This has all been very educational, but you know what? I'm happy the way I am. I teach through example, and I don't force anything on anyone.
At least I didn't think I did. So glad someone else enlightened me. And you know what? I think they ARE afraid of us.
How can so many people be so ignorant, yet so self righteous that they feel this comfortable with condemning their fellow man? (Or woman)

Raymond makes an excellent point. Mormons are very well schooled in their own dogma as well as that of others; if for no other reason than as a defense mechanism. He's right, they don't overtly attack evangelicals and they are often accosted by others of different faiths; who demand that they stop their practice and acquiesce to a more mainstream belief. The act of denying or forbidding any group their own freedom to worship as they see fit goes against the very singular founding principle of this great nation. That being said, Mormons should be left alone. Left alone in Utah; a previously desolate state and greater region that was populated and tamed by Mormons because they could not accept nor be accepted by already established communities from Illinois to Missouri; leaving them to inhabit the dead spider infested shores of an evaporating inland sea.

Mormon lore makes the journey west and subsequent habitation of the region sound like Moses and the children of Israel fleeing the bondage of the pharaoh with hand carts. But what is missing more and more each time the story is told is the pain and suffering their exodus wrought on the people and communities they affected en route. Mass movement of Mormon settlers bringing communal, self-serving economic monopolization to communities lead to often violent strife; strife that fired a Mormon philosophy of “Blood Atonement” in which organized Mormon militias burned and decimated without mercy the communities that wronged or attacked them in ten-fold fashion. Even after settling in Utah, Mormons continued to make others pay for alleged trespasses against them and their land as they massacred non-believing settlers (Fancher-Baker Party of the Mountain Meadows Massacre) as they passed through their “promised valley”. Yes, seasoned members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (LDS) have reason to study their scriptures and counsel one another. If they are to defend their own past actions as well bazaar spirituality, they need to get their stories straight.

Having lived amongst them, my family and I watched daily the bizarre dichotomy that is Mormon community life. To get to the highest level of heaven Mormons must prove themselves to their church leaders that they are worthy to enter the temple and take part in the secretive rituals that ensure their superiority over all others; superiority that will lead to their exultation as Gods themselves. Frankly the fact that they baptize, “en abstentia”, the dead, who are already destined to be judged by whatever deity others may worship, or permit temple workers to anoint, with hand and oil, the genitalia of wedding couples or share secret hand shakes and then threaten death to those who would divulge the sanctity of their dark secrets is their own business. It did however become my voyeuristic business as I watched my neighbors hide from their fellow worshiping neighbors, which was the rest of the entire community, their actual or possibly perceived transgressions that would keep them out of marbled halls of the temple. It is, after all, every good member’s first duty to defend the threshold of the temple against those not worthy to pass. It’s no wonder that Utah leads the nation in anti-depressant prescription medicines. Knowing that my neighbor was looking and had the power to report me to God and condemn me for all eternity would depress me too.

Mormon family life is often viewed as the acceptable ends that justify the means of the faith. After all, their towns are clean, communities are conservative, crime rates are low by anyone’s standard, and at first glance everyone is unbelievably friendly. The church “preaches” acceptance and opens arms to all faiths. However, neither I nor anyone who I’ve met who’s lived intimately in their midst have witnessed this acceptance once it’s made clear that they’re not bringing us into the flock. I watched LDS children tell other children that their parents told them they couldn’t play with them because they didn’t go to their church. My very professionally qualified wife, coincidentally, did not receive a second job interview until she tucked her cross necklace into her blouse. The one LDS neighbor who did show caring acceptance by disregarding our non-believing ways and befriending my wife while I was deployed to Iraq faced ostracism by the rest of the community for what sins she might have been committing behind closed doors with my wife. The sectarianism found in Mormon communities is identical to that which I found in Iraq. I have no doubt that if social mores permitted, my neighbors would have literally stoned me in the street for drinking a beer, smoking a cigar, or cutting my grass on a Sunday. This behavior was not isolated to our neighbors in “Happy Valley”. As my wife worked in Salt Lake City, she found that her closest “friend” there turned on her and ended their relationship when she was offered the “calling” to lead her church’s women’s circle. Their trips to Wendover, Nevada to play the slots were over because of the increased scrutiny she’d be under because of her new ecclesiastically endearing position. Community economic monopolization continues today. I would encourage the federal government to look into the business practices of, say, agricultural suppliers in both Utah and Idaho. I guess it’s not alright to deny home loans to minorities but it’s okay to deny farm equipment sales and/or financing outside of one’s own faith. I would say let the states investigate it, but look at the make up of all three branches of the states’ governments and determine for yourself if the fox is guarding the hen house.

I could go on with the cover-ups on the complete dominance of the church over all social and political aspects of community life in the state of Utah and southern Idaho, the fact that no other religion in the state has purchased islands of land on public school property or bought and restricted access to Main Street in the largest city in the state, the hypocrisy of a faith that compares its suffering to the Jews in the holocaust, the denial of large underground homosexual populations and backlash hyper-deviant sexual practices, or unbelievably high teenage pregnancy rates. But some highly educated Elder (ironically only 22 years old) fresh off his “mission” will just shoot each one down with the same adeptness that his apologetic quorum leaders address the past. Or, in defeat, he’ll offer his prayers that I might someday find my own way. I could and would appreciate that. I myself pray that everyone, in their own fashion, find their own way. Whatever path we choose, we choose it ourselves, alone. And that’s just what we should do with the Mormons. Leave them alone.

Obviosly Greg does not know his mormon history... they all did recant.. takes a little research.. of go to the Times and seasons blog and read another mormons research on it...
as to people saying what is the Jews problem with baptism for the dead? How would mormons feel if the church of satan baptised their dead realtives?
thats what I thought.

Thanks for the response. My pastor's car is a Saturn he bought used a couple years ago.

What can I say about being mormon? It always seemed weird even when I joined the church at 16. I was depressed at the time and the missionaries made everything sound so wonderful. I mean, hey, they have an explanation for why there are so many faiths (the great apostasy)and even Joseph Smith, sure I buy that. I never really 'felt the spirit' when I prayed but being around people that seemed to genuinely care about you? I felt great! So I was baptized.

About a year later, the newness wore off and I began to understand why everyone is so antagonistic to the LDS church. A lot of the teachings...really do not make sense. I'm talking about common sense.

Much of what I agree with isn't necessarily the biblical part but the social teachings. Such as how teenagers are taught to date ONLY in groups. They should "never lie next to a member of the opposite sex" until marriage or even french kiss. And girls are not allowed to become a missionary until they are 21 (boys can become one at 18) because they are supposed to get married and have children. What about college? What about getting some life experience? Well, did you know the divorce rate among LDS families is higher than non LDS? Some family bond. Or drinking Coke? Sure it's caffeine and maybe one shouldn't be downing 7 a day but....is that so bad?

The final straw for me involved a friend of mine. A woman that truly loved LDS and believed in everything whole-heartedly found herself in a sexual identity crisis. She became a lesbian. And her mormon bishop (spiritual leader) told her that it was "more natural for a human to want to have sex with a goat than to desire to have intercourse with someone of the same sex." I just don't think God rolls that way. I mean really, it's okay for me and a cow to get together but not me and sheila?

I believe in faith and God and Jesus. I believe that they want the best for us and they want us to be happy. We still need to make the right decisions and honor ourselves, but...does God really care if I wear special clothes? or pay LDS 10% of my earnings? What if I wore clothes that made me feel special and donated money to charities that I designated? Would He love me less? Does he love my friend less because she's dating Sarah not Jimmy? I think he has more important things to worry about that the Coke I'm sipping right now or that I'm unmarried with no kids at the ripe old age of 23.

I think the idea of good works that is taught in Mormonism is commendable. So are a lot of the biblical teachings but all this social drama is unnecessary. I mean no shorts allowed? Womens and mans roles only? My friend really wanted to be a bishop. But that's only for men. She'll have to settle as a sunday school teacher. Just silly.

I'm not saying that LDS is a bad religion, just that some of the things taught to members...just don't make for good common sense. And that's what I think God is all about. As long as one finds faith and spirituality for themselves, He'll be happy...and love you (but no shorts or Coke).

Hey Keith....I will attempt to answer your questions.

1. If what you mean by "faith in the claims of Joseph Smith to be a Mormon" means that believing in the teachings of Brother Joseph, then yes, in order to be a Mormon you must have faith in his teachings. But please be very aware, Mormons believe and have faith in Jesus Christ. Joseph Smith taught about Jesus. Everything he did and the Church does is in the name of the Savior. I have provided a copy of the Articles of Faith (@ the end of this post) for you to read. These are 13 points that summarize the Mormon beliefs.

2. The leaders of the Church are men serving like in any position within any other church or organization. We believe they have been called by God to serve. Please note that the leadership of the Church are serving in a lay ministry. They are not paid for their services but do it for the service of God. Please compare that to other religions. How nice is your pastor's car? (please do not take offense to that...it is only a point)

3. As far as the doctrine of becoming gods....if God is our Heavenly Father, and we are his literal spirit offspring, then if we are found worthy, through the Grace of Christ to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, the Father said we would inherit all that he had. Is this not found in the Bible? I believe we can find references regarding this type of blessing throughout the scriptures. If we are His children, we can become like Him. That is not say we will be promoted above Him or even to his exact status, but like Him in that we will have no end and dwell in Heaven. We do believe families can be Eternal and that we ALL, are a part of an eternal family. Yes Keith...even you are my brother.

God Bless you sir!
SM

THE ARTICLES OF FAITH
OF
THE CHURCH OF JESUS CHRIST OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshipping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

Joseph Smith

Thanks to all who have made an effort at sharing their ideas and beliefs. My own gut responses to the various opinions and personal anecdotes are telling--some of you I would like to meet while others have left me feeling uncomfortable and distanced. I consider myself to be a Mormon, true-blue, through and through, yet I feel most comfortable with those whose approach to their faith, whether Mormon or not, would result in arms open wide, long friendly chats, and more belonging than exclusion. While I hold my faith dear, being "right" almost always seems less important than understanding others' experience and working toward being understood in my own. As a 40-year old Mormon living in rural southern Indiana, I hope I can "share the Gospel" in a way that results in simply enjoying the blessings of the Gospel with others - regardless of their faith. Thanks again for sharing (and reading).

As a Presbyterian (USA) who is a Democrat, I've felt judged by the religious right to be hell-bound. I share that much with LDSers, with whom I've been friends, played sports, etc.

This is unfair overgeneralization for many LDSers, I'm sure, but in a way, I believe the protestant right wing evangelicals and the right wing LDSers deserve each other as bunkmates, insofar as they manifest their faith and values by supporting conservative political causes. Their support of Iraq-tied-to-Al-Qaeda lying, Mammon-worshipping, torturing, oppressive-regime-supporting, the-poor-and-imprisoned-neglecting, gun-loving, environment-be-damned-exploiting-and-polluting, global-warming-loving, intolerance-promoting, people-of-color-race-baiting politicians puts them in the same boat as far as I'm concerned. They're so focused on achieving stylized and selective personal righteousness, that they've completely lost their bearings and stopped listening to God and Jesus about what we are supposed to do in this world. I've got a log in my own eye, but folks, you've got a lot of explaining to do to God. Y'all should read Matthew 25:31-46 and quake in your spiritual boots. You're in danger, big danger, but most of you will keep smilin', I'm guessing. I hope not.

You have NO IDEA what Mormonism is like until you live in THEIR communities. After living in Logan, utah for the last 11 years, I am BEGINNING to understand what it must of been like for an African-American to live in Mississippi in the 1950's.

I would like to appologize to J.D. also, I am not appologizing about the church just the actions of some over zealous members. Three out of my 5 best friends as a child through high school were not members. They attended my birthday parties and I theirs. My parents never forbade me from associating with non-members. I have had the opportunity to live in Argentina for 2 years on a church mission and made many friends of other faiths. Diversity is good and I feel bad that some members who have not lived outside the state will deny their children to have friends of other faiths that they are diminished some how. Someday they may move outside of the state and may not be able to cope with the change from majority religion to a minor religion.

I have never read the Book of Mormom and know little about the Mormon faith.
As a Christian, I have a couple concerns:
1. If I understand correctly, a person has to have faith in the claims of Joseph Smith in order to be a Mormon. While I certainly trust or even have faith in a handful of people, I would not trust my salvation to any human being. If Joseph Smith lied, then all who follow his 'revelations' have been deceived.
2. Doesn't the Mormon church heirarchy have authority over eveeything and everyone in the church? If so, doesn't that supercede God's authority?
3. Doesn't the Mormon faith believe that Mormons can become gods? If so, how is this anything but contradictory to the Bible, which teaches that we are God's children by adoption but that we will never become gods or like God Himself?

I am shocked that many of you call yourselves "Christians" or "Religious" individuals. I have spent a great deal of time this week listening to broadcasts from Calvary Chapel and other "Christian" networks and cannot find any comfort, faith, or knowledge from sermons given by your "Christian" leaders. The common thread throughout all the broadcasts is "If you pray.....you will be healed, saved, or find salvation".

Do not get me wrong, I believe in the power of prayer and that Jesus Christ is my personal Savior. I believe that only through Him and His grace can I hope to enter the Kingdom of Heaven, however, I hear these men preaching these truths but do not feel their love for mankind. I hear far too often how other religions, such as Mormonism, Catholicism, and Islam are wrong. I do not believe in the doctrines of most religions on the earth but I also do not criticize them for the good they do and are trying to do. Mormonism is about making bad men good and good men better. Mormonism is about creating families that can support each other while reaching out to their neighbor, regardless of race, religion or political background, and offer friendship, support and service.

Come on CHRISTIAN BROTHERS....stop the back biting and hating and move on! I believe that many "Christians", Catholics, Muslims, and other non-religious people will have the opportunity to enter Heaven....and the reason for this belief is through the power of Christ, his Atonement, and the Eternal nature of God. If God is our Heavenly Father, then He would want His children to return to His presence. The Atonement of Christ is far greater than any "Christian" preacher or person can comprehend and shame on any of us for limiting its POWER.

I am a Mormon, I am proud of this and would love to have PEACE AMONG religions.

Quit your judging and WORK OUT YOUR OWN SALVATION WITH FEAR AND TREMBLING and let the Mormons be.

SM

what you believe is not important. what is important is that you are a good american and we give you the right to believe as you want, as long as you dont demand that others bow to you or your religion.

Seriously, who are you people? Have any of you ever read the Book of Mormon? How is that you all think you are experts on the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and our doctrinal beliefs? From the comments I have read none of you knows much of anything about the LDS church and our beliefs. First of all, we believe in God the Eternal Father and in his Son, Jesus Christ and in the Holy Ghost. We believe that Jesus Christ came to earth, was born of Mary, atoned for our sins in the Garden of Gethsemane and was crucified and then was resurrected and rose again on the third day to show himself to his disciples so that they would know that he has overcome death. Everthing in our belief system revolves around these basic tenets. We do not worship Joseph Smith. We do not worship Mormon or Moroni. We believe that they were prophets on the American continent at the same time that there were prophets in the Middle East. We believe in the Bible in so far as it is translated correctly and we believe the Book of Mormon to another testament of Jesus Christ. We believe that all man kind will have Eternal Life. However, we believe that the quality of each indiviuals eternity depends upon who they live their life here on earth. We believe in a God who is just and a Savior who is merciful and allows us to repent and be forgiven of our sins so that we might dwell eternally with God the Father and his Son,Jesus Christ. This is what we believe!

WHO CARES?

God is dead and we are all alone!

Religions were the first invention of mankind.
- Why is there lightning?
--Someone up there must be mad at us!

- Why did my boat sink in the big waves?
--Someone down there is mad at me!

- Why did that dog dig up that dead guy?
--He is taking him to the afterlife!

- That snake bit me!
--Your going to die and the devil gets your soul.

etc. etc. etc. Once SCIENCE could explain these phenomenons, those "gods" started to lose followers........Now we have one.....where is he?

There is one thing that will forever set a Latter-Day Saint apart from all the world, be they Christian (so-called), Muslim, atheist or pagan: all other people can only BELIEVE the LDS Church is (inspired, silly, evil, merely good, etc.--fill in your own adjective), while any faithful Latter-Day Saint may, by following the rules set by God Himself, KNOW, with that knowledge obtainable only from the good Lord Himself, by witness of the Holy Ghost, that the Church is everything it claims to be. Science might well long for that kind of surety, which it can never possess. Only by testing God, by His own rules, can that sure knowledge be obtained.

Alas, fellow respondents who attempt futily to discredit the LDS Church--by your own words you demonstrate not only that you will likely never possess the knowledge of its truth--you quite patently DON'T want that knowledge. And so, in His kindness, God will not burden you with it. And by doing, will give you some claim, by way of your ignorance even if willful, to His mercy when that day comes you see and mourn your blindness.

But the joy of that sure knowledge you will lack forever in this world, I fear, while those of us who have tested and proven God can rejoice even in a world filled with all too many as blind as yourselves.

Though there are many opinions on the Mormons I have come to rely on the simple test laid out by Jesus himself, "by their fruit ye shall know them."
They are among the most "Christian" people I have ever met.

I suppose I'd be interested in knowing what denomination claims Christians who reject Mormonism. There are many that claim that theirs alone is the path, and cite to chapter and verse in the Bible to support that. Catholics may say it of Protestants, Baptists of Episcopalians, Jehovahs Witnesses of Baptists, and so forth.

So many mutually exclusive adaptations, it stands to reason that all are wrong. The Bible can be read literally or as allegory, in part or as a whole, to support anything from Hinduism to Cargo Cults to Pandeism - and that's part of the wild religious scenery that Martin was talking about.

My experiences with Mormons have been generally favorable. When they knock on my door, they don't make a nuisance of themselves when I politely decline. I've had acquaintances who have tried a few times to get me to watch or read Mormon propaganda, but nothing too terribly egregious. I have read portions of the BOM and have found it to read very much like mediocre pulp fiction. Much, if not all, of it is quite obviously fictitious. Not very interesting reading.

The Mormon church should be regarded with as much respect as any other church in the United States. In theory this is a true statement, yet on occasion, Mormon church leaders have encouraged the membership to disobey federal laws, such as the Supreme Court decision in Reynolds and the Edmunds/Tucker Act. Other religious leaders have not instructed their membership to directly disobey federal statutes and Supreme Court decisions. That is why many U.S. citizens would be concerned that Mormon Church President Hinckley could instruct the church membership to disobey federal laws again. Brigham Young and John Taylor were notorious for advocating disobedience to the "laws of men." This historic friction between the United States and a Mormon hierarchy with theocratic tendencies, has been an issue from the beginnings of Mormonism. I do not have any evidence that other religions have waged war against the United States in word and in deed, as the Mormon church has done in the past. Theoretically, President Hinckley could receive a new revelation to disobey the rule of law, and encourage the practice of polygamy again. This is a possibility under the current theological beliefs in Mormonism, especially with Doctrine and Covenants Section 132 remaining in full force. The Doctrine and Covenants are binding scripture in Mormonism, and Section 132 authorizes the practice of plural marriage, promising 10 virgins to righteous Mormon men. Given the doctrine of modern revelation, a distinct possibility exists that Mormon directives could take precedent over Federal law, as occurred in the past. What assurance does the U.S. public have that the Mormon church will not disobey laws in the future? A primary concern regarding Mormonism, is whether Mormons will choose to obey the Prophet or the laws of the United States should a conflict occur. This is a troubling issue, which has not been fully resolved.

Are Mormons afforded the same rights and privileges under the Constitution as other religions? Legally, of course they are. But on an individual basis, it is unclear whether Mormons respect other people‘s right of religious freedom. This is an interpersonal issue that is influenced by the institutional directives of the Mormon church. It rests on the ability of the church membership to make genuine friendships with people of other faiths, without the ulterior motive of converting them to Mormonism. Is it possible for a Mormon to make friends with a member of another religion, without the ulterior motive of someday converting that person to Mormonism? Yes, of course. But after watching the antics of Mormon missionaries on the PBS special, it is logical to conclude that many Mormons feel it is their duty to convert everyone to Mormonism. This concept is inherently offensive to many people who simply want to be considered genuine friends, without being viewed as a potential "convert baptism" in the future. Many creeds believe that they have the exclusive truth, not just Mormons. Many others are atheist or agnostic. Many other religions have developed a true tolerance for all humanity and do not feel the overbearing necessity of converting them to their own faith. Will Mormons ever be able to be genuine friends with non-Mormons without having the ulterior motive of conversion? This is a fair question, given the obvious harrassment of average citizens that was demonstrated by Mormon missionaries during the missionary segment of the PBS Frontline documentary. Maybe the reason Mormonism has not truly entered the mainstream yet, is that many people conclude, fairly or unfairly, that mormons are only interested in outside contact to the extent that they are fulfilling their duty as missionaries. This would be extremely shallow, superficial, and limiting, and would define Mormons as nothing more than scripted automatons. Mormons need to learn to have genuine friendships with people from outside their religion, on a wider scale. It is insulting to members of other faiths and non-believers, that Mormons believe they possess the exclusive truths of nature, when there is ample evidence in the history of the Mormon church, that it has just as many flaws (if not more) as any of the other faiths. Will the leadership ever encourage teaching true Mormon church history instead of a whitewashed version through its correlated lesson materials? Many Mormon's missionary zeal would diminish to proper levels if they fully understood the truly tenuous nature of Mormonism’s truth claims, from a historic perspective.

Before Mormonism is treated with the full faith and respect that other religions receive, it must demonstrate that it is deserving of such respect. The first step toward that respect would be a shift in emphasis away from converting every human being on the planet to Mormonism, toward loving every human being on the planet with the true Christian love, the love that Mormonism already professes to have. This shift will need to be generated from the upper levels of the Mormon church leadership structure. Until that happens on a broad scale, many will continue to view Mormonism collectively as a second-class religion.

I would like to apologize to J.D. for the rudeness of some Utah Mormons toward him. It is possible for some people to be insular and clueless and lack insight into their own behavior, especially if they have never lived anywhere else.

On the other hand, I have lived in Maryland, Virginia, Nebraska, California, Washington State, Colorado, Idaho, and Japan, and have found the most insular and arrogant people to have been in Marin County (home of Barbara Boxer) and the Virginia suburbs of Washington, DC. My wife observed that she felt more at home in Tokyo than she did among the left-wingnuts of Marin County, whose perception of life and values were inverted from most of America, and who consistently looked down their noses at anyone who disagreed with them. Basically, their attitude toward any religious American was the same as the attitude of some whites toward blacks in the days of Jim Crow segregation.

If you moved to Marin County, you could feel excluded and looked down on without having any convenient religious category to blame it on.

On the other hand, since many Mormons spend two or more years of their lives in very non-Mormon environments, as missionaries and in military service, in graduate school and in compnay transfers, even a lot of Utah Mormons are much more sophisticated than the ones you describe. You just need to hang out with a more sophisticated brand of Mormon.

You could start with some of the LDS professors like Daniel Peterson, who appears on the PBS show The Mormons. He's smart and has a very good sense of humor. He loves talking to people who aren't LDS and answering their questions, if you wish. He also speaks German and Arabic.

You could also drop by meetings of the J. Reuben Clark Law Society, mainly BYU Law School alumni, who are pretty smart and generally also insightful about their religious beliefs.

For that matter, you could go down to some of the LDS Church facilities for the public, like the Family History Library. You will find people who are very helpful and very used to helping people who are not LDS to research their ancestors. As they get to know you they might even take you to lunch.

You could enroll for a seminar at BYU, where there are presentations on some scholarly topic. In fact the Mormon History Association is having its meeting in a couple of weeks, and that would be a place to meet people of various faiths who have an interest in Mormon culture and history.

While I can accept that some guy may join the LDS Church thinking he will advance his career, there are plenty of people who are not Mormon who have been pretty successful in Utah, like Robert Redford and Salt Lake Mayor Rocky Anderson. Short of running for governor, I can't really think of a job where it would make that much difference to your employer or customers. It certainly does not keep some Mormons from dropping out (like my youngest Brother). It made no difference at all in the law firm I was with in Salt Lake.

Howard, Dana is not concerned about injury, but about insult. From her point of view, it is understandable. Marlin Jensen explains it well in the exerpt from his interview that I posted earlier.

J.D., in a sense, you've experienced something of what it means to be an ethnic minority, something that others of us have to deal with all the time. People from minority religions also, be they Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Jews, or Seventh-day Adventists, or even Catholics in southern evangelical-dominated towns, often catch flak from the majority cultures in which they live. In Utah, things are probably made worse by a history of persecution followed by isolation as a homogeneous group in the Rocky Mountain West. (Often, these Utah types even get on the nerves of Mormons from other parts of the country and world.) And as I'm sure you can attest, they aren't all like that. I deal with it by trying to stay out of Utah. I figure their ancestors were kicked there, and they can have it. In any case, the shared culture of traditionally Mormon Utah ought not to be confused with the religion. This was the biggest problem I had with the recent documentary. They should have spent more time with Mormons in other countries. 32% of Tongans and 25% of Samoans (Western and American) are Mormon. I would be more interested in seeing how it affects their countries. Mormons are a relatively small influence in the US. Think of how much more influence Catholics, Jews, or Christian evangelicals have had.

I agree that there is probably no bias in America toward Mormons nor do most Americans care if Romney is a Mormon or not. Romney for 2008! (subject to change as we see the debates and all the other good stuff coming our way in the wake of 2008) This going to be a fun election. Let's see we have a black man, a woman, a Mormon and a guy over 70 years old. We should be making our decision based on the merits of the candidates but some will vote for the black man cause they are black, some will not vote for the black man because he is black. Some will vote for the woman because she is a woman and some will vote against her because she is a woman. Some will vote for Romney cause he is a white guy and this will be more important than today's trumped up religious discussion. In the end, very few have the same interest in religion as those of us who participate so vigorously on this blog. We are the chosen in the know. At some point in the 2008 elections we will forget about race, religion, and gender and we will vote for the best candidate. That's what is great about America.

Martin Marty’s synopsis of Mormonism is excellent. I especially resonated with the part about minorities living under their sphere being bitter. It’s true, I never was a bitter person until I lived in Utah! When I first arrived, never having had bad experiences with Mormons outside of Utah (except for a pair of aggressive, argumentative missionaries once), I was open to conversion. But the way I was treated by Utah Mormons closed the door on conversion for me, and lead me to fear their religion.

I have been stunned and hurt by the rude, unfriendly, and inhospitable behavior of some Utah Mormons. I often have been asked here, “What religion are you?” only to find out there was only one right answer. Once I answered that I was a Protestant, and the supposedly educated person answered, “Oh, that’s not TOO bad.” The arrogance is unbelievable.

I have often been shunned at workplace lunchrooms and even in classes when it was discovered I was not LDS, as they call themselves here. I know people who joined “The Church” simply to get a break economically, since so much business and government is LDS run, and it is not always easy to socialize or make a good living here if you do not belong.

Church President and Prophet Gordon B. Hinckley had to admonish his people at a World Conference when the Olympics were here, to be more tolerant and neighborly after non-LDS people related such snubs as their children being excluded from birthday parties because they weren’t LDS. The problem is called “The Silent Divide” here because it isn’t often spoken of openly due to possible repercussions with employment, etc. Even Mitt Romney said on Channel 4 TV that he “couldn’t believe how important religion is here” (during an interview about his book).

I could go on, and if you send a reporter here, volumes would quickly be filled with similar stories by non-LDS. So the idea that Mormons are harmless eccentrics is not true. They have an army of 60,000 missionaries after all. That they have not always emphasized and followed the teachings of Jesus Christ is truer.

Dana,

I do not know why the Jews got upset. I have access to the same lists of the dead in Germany. I could start a church and mutter the names of the any Jews on the list and dunk a teddy bear in the tub for each name.

What exactly did I obligate any Jew to do by doing that? Did that make them members of my church?

The whole thing makes reason stare. If any Jew is upset at the LDS church for doing it, it simply means they recognize the LDS authority for those baptisms. If they believe the LDS church to be false, why bother getting upset? It means nothing to them.

It is a sacred ordinance to the members of the church, but it obligates no one. All is dependent on free agency. The Lord forces no man to heaven or hell. Each person determines his own fate.

Baptisms for the dead: 1 Corinthians 15:29

I feel the benign fundamentalisn of most fundamentalist Christians, the LDS, Muslims and
others is consistant with the secular sprit of the United States Constitution. Their inability to accept a counterpoint as having any legitimacy will always be a source of tension.
None of them really believe in live and let live.
Any of these groups. once in power would quickly
enforce their orthodoxy.

I thought this article was a theological debate about the merits of Mormonism, but about whether Mormons are being accepted more into mainstream society.

As a Mormon who has lived on both the East Coast and West Coast, I answer in the affirmative that it does seem as though we are accepted with little to no trepidation. I have found little bias against Mormons, and have found that most people are curious about my beliefs, and respectful about my lifestyle. That certainly is a drastic change from the beginning of the last century when the Senate held hearings to determine whether they would seat Senator Reed Smoot. I believe the author of this article has made some astute observations about the growing acceptance of Mormons in American society.

Canyon is one helluva Christian.

"Let's say I was baptised a Catholic and then became an atheist, died and went to hell. Then one of my still living family members becomes Mormon.

Can that person have me re-baptized Mormon and sent to heaven?"

Reminds me of that old WC Fields story. Correct me if I've got this wrong. WC Fields was very sick and approaching death. When a friend stopped by and found the patient uncharacteristically reading the Bible, he asked "What are you doing." WC Fields answered, "Looking for loopholes."

Professor Marty's last comment is very insightful. The negative feelings of many Evangelicals toward Latter-day Saints is generated by the fact that there is a strong resemblance in many ways between the two faith communities, but the differences are still significant ones.

What should be even more interesting is that the Latter-day Saints do not have negative feelings toward Evangelicals. From both sides, there is the same nearness in many beliefs and the same differences in doctrines and practices, yet the Mormons are not affected negatively by this condition.

While Evangelicals form a market for anti-Mormon literature and videos (warning people against joining the LDS Church or accepting its teachings), and some Evangelical churches even produce and distribute such materials (such as the Southern Baptist Convention did prior to its convention in Salt Lake City a few years ago), there is no industry in Mormonism, either official or private, which publishes books and materials trying to warn Mormons or Catholics against the "misleading" teachings of Evangelical Christianity.

Mormons do not picket in front of Southern Baptist churches and conferences, they do not show movies in their churches that depict the "weird" things Evangelicals believe, and they do not try to get Evangelicals kicked out of organizations for Christians. Mormons do not call Evangelicals weird, stupid, ignorant or evil. While the Latter-day Saints have an extensive internal educational program, which includes a daily hour of religious instruction for all high school age Mormons, there is no effort in any of that curriculum to denigrate or warn against Evangelicals or their churches.

Somehow, Evangelicals fear associating with Mormons, while Mormons do not fear associating with Evangelicals. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not try to keep its members from talking to Evangelicals or reading their literature or sitting in on their meetings.

May I suggest that this simple fact is due to another simple fact: Mormons are much more confident in knowing what they believe and why they believe it, and confident in their ability to explain those things to others, including evangelicals. Evangelicals, by contrast, are so afraid of letting their members encounter the real Mormonism that they invest tremendous resources into creating and promulgating a false picture of Mormons and their beliefs.

The most fundamentally false aspect of this scarecrow is that it claims to know things about Mormonism that Mormons themselves do not know. How credible is that assertion, really? A Mormon adult of 40 years of age who has grown up in the LDS Church has received thousands of hours of instruction, and has himself taught hundreds of hours. He has read thousands of pages in the scriptures and other books, including books attacking Mormons. He has served a two year mission in which every hour of the day he was confronting peoples' questions about his church and answering them. He has done so in a social and ethnic context different from his home, perhaps radically so, including a new language. He has been married in an LDS temple and is familiar with all of its ordinances. He has performed as a leader in Church meetings and in his own family. He has provided counsel and advice to other Mormons. He has watched hundreds of hours of LDS General Conferences and thousands of hours of talks by other Mormons. He has had the opportunity to gain a sophisticated knowledge of LDS history and doctrine at a Church university or in an LDS Institute of Religion that is near his college campus. He knows highly educated professionals who are secure in their Mormon faith and can answer his questions on religious matters. He knows that the leaders of his Church at the local level are all volunteers who have no mercenary motive, and he has met the senior leaders of the Church during visits to Salt Lake or their visits to his region, and knows them to be good and honest people who try to emulate the ancient apostles. He has performed service in his community, to help both Mormons and others. He fasts one day a month so he can use the money saved to help the poor. He contributes tithes and other offerings because he sees the benefits they bring, helping to build meetinghouses and temples, and support missionaries whose families cannot pay the costs.

In effect, every actively engaged Mormon adult (including every woman) is a minister of Mormonism. They are trained and experienced in teaching and explaining, in praying and fasting, in listening and helping. Is the average Evangelical Christian anywhere near that "professional" in his or her faith commitment and understanding? I doubt it, and recent national studies that show that LDS teenagers exceed other Christian youth in their knowledge of the Bible and their practice of prayer and exercise of faith, support my hypothesis: Evangelicals are afraid of Mormons because they know that Mormons are much better "armed" to defend their beliefs than most Evangelicals are ready to defend theirs.

The lack of Evangelical confidence and their fear of Mormons is largely a result, in my view, of a failure of Evangelicals to strengthen themselves in their ability to live and defend their own beliefs. The fear of Evangelicals toward Mormons is remarkable in the face of the growth of Evangelical Christianity in terms of numbers and political influence, which has helped them dominate the "mainstream" of traditional Christianity in America, despite the fact that many of the most popular forms of Evangelical Christianity in America are no older than Mormonism. It may be like the success of someone in the entertainment world, who feels that at any time it could all slip away, and so feels a fear that dominates his life and leads so often to self-destructive behavior. Evangelical fear of Mormons, and their need to caricature Mormonism in order to assuage their fears, is a symptom of an immature faith that is not secure and sufficient in and of itself.

Nice try GREG, however they left the church. Is there a more sincere form of recant? Lies that cause people to believe, have or increase their faith are moral? Same lies true for all religions.

God has never spoken to anyone in any verifiable manner. Neither has God appointed prophets or sent agents to speak to people. Thus the term "faith" to describe those who believe God has spoken to people, Joseph Smith being just one of many. It's faith and NOT knowledge.

Faith is the key ingredient in the confidence scam. The Joseph Smith scenario in any other setting (non religious) is a criminal act that would be punished by fine, imprisonment or both. Muhammad, the writers of the Bible and Joe Smith are all criminals. No matter if they had visions, heard voices, saw miraclious acts, no matter what, there is no way to verify that God and not Devil was behind them.

The writers of Exodus were thinking Devil, "I am the God or your (Moses') father..." That statement says there is more than one God. WEH has identified this particular God to be the Devil named Lucifer. Devils are supernatural beings that want to be worshipped, honored, adored, glorified and sacrificed to. God has no need of any of the aforementioned. God is behind no religion while Devil is the object of worship of all.

http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul is a Bible lesson, the proper reading of Exodus, specifically the identification of Lucifer as the God (would be God as visioned by religions) that Moses made the deal with to become the biggest shot that ever lived. Joe Smith is just another Moses imitator, "the big bucks go to those who lead the multitudes to hell."

Mormonism is and has always been an attack on Biblical Christianity since the convicted con man Joseph Smith founded it. The book of Mormon claims that there are two churches, the one of the lamb and the one of the devil. In the Doctrine and Covenants, Joseph Smith, in recounting his visions, claimed all other creeds were abominations. Let's not pay any attention to Joseph Smith's attempt to become a member of a Methodist church a few years after he claimed to have had that divine revelation, since he was denied membership for occult practices and general criminal behavior.

Today Mormon missionaries will come into the homes of Christians with the intent of leading them away from Christianity to follow Mormonism.

Mormonism teaches:

That God was once a man,
That Jesus and Lucifer along with the rest of us, are his spiritual offspring.
That the man Jesus was born as the result of sex between Jehovah God and Mary. (Bruce McConkie sp?)
That we too shall be gods of our own universes after our exaltation.
All of which are diametrically opposed to Christian doctrine.

The Book of Mormon, The Pearl of Great Price, The Doctrine and Covenants, as well as the Bible, "in so far as it is accurately translated," represent the sacred texts of Mormonism, but are subject to revision by the twelve living, serving apostles.

Parts of the Book of Mormon are inspired. Long stretches of Isaiah, including the italicized insertions by translators, are plagiarized into it.

Christian doctrine understands and agrees with both Paul and James. You can have work without faith and those works are useless. But you cannot have faith without works because faith, better understood as trust, changes the way we live.

Dana,

The "experts" interviewed for the PBS special didn't do a very good job of explaining this doctrine (baptism for, not of, the dead) of the LDS church. We believe that all people who have reached the age of accountability (8 years old) and who do not have cognitive disabilities that would make them unaccountable for their behavior must be baptized, here on earth, by one who holds the proper priesthood authority, in order for them to enter the presence of God after this life.

Most humans have lived on the earth at times when this authority was not present, or if it was, were never presented with the opportunity to be baptized. Therefore, this and other ordinances are performed vicariously by living members of the church for those who have already passed on (most commonly their own ancestors).

All of this being said, one of the LDS church's most basic doctrines is that of free agency. No one is forced to do anything by God except to accept the natural consequences of their own behavior. Therefore, no one is "forced" to become a Mormon after they've passed on, any more than they were "forced" to embrace this or any other religion in mortality. If they choose to accept the ordinances that have been performed on their behalf, that is their privilege. If they do not, they cannot be forced to be or do anything they do not want to be or do.

Like the Jewish man in the PBS special, some take offense at this doctrine, so the church has tried to be very careful in setting limits on precisely which names may be submitted for this work.

To address your question as to why Mormons feel compelled to do this, you must remember how this church came to be. Joseph Smith said he literally saw and spoke with God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and that they instructed him that no existing church represented the true church of Jesus Christ, and that he (Joseph) would be the Lord's instrument in restoring the true church of Jesus Christ. As the current President of the church, Gordon B. Hinckley has stated, this actually happened or it didn't. Either this work is a huge fraud or it is the most significant thing that has occurred since the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ Himself. Your job, and my job, is to find out for ourselves whether or not this is true. I have discovered for myself that it is true. The question for you is, is it worth your time to find out?

Dan and Stacey

Let's say I was baptised a Catholic and then became an atheist, died and went to hell. Then one of my still living family members becomes Mormon.

Can that person have me re-baptized Mormon and sent to heaven?

Prof. Marty, nice summary and analysis! Your last paragraph, which begins, "Those who most resist their status in the mainstream are conservative evangelicals," seems almost prophetic of the comments that follow it.

Thank you that is helpul regarding Holocaust survivors. I agree to disagree on the practice as a whole. I appreciate you all clarifying the issue for me.

Hi Dana. I found this while reading the interview transcripts on the PBS Mormon documentary website. I don't think you have much to worry about. http://www.pbs.org/mormons/interviews/jensen.html

"Marlin Jensen is an LDS church historian and member of the First Quorum of the Seventy. This is the edited transcript of an interview conducted on March 7, 2006."

Question: "We spoke to Holocaust survivors, and some people feel offense that their ancestors were given the chance from Mormons for baptism of the dead, because they feel their ancestors died for their own faith. How do you handle this situation and concern?

Answer: ... As I understand their view of this -- and I have great empathy for it -- they are concerned that by baptizing a Jewish person, and particularly a Holocaust survivor, or someone who was killed in the Holocaust, that we somehow are denigrating the Jewishness of the person. And again, when I compare our little bit of persecution to what the Jews have suffered for 6,000 years, we'd have to carry their briefcases. What do we have to tell them about what it means to be persecuted or to be exterminated or to have their memory obliterated? So I'm very sensitive and appreciate very much their point of view on this.

What we really have, in a sense, is a classic First Amendment question, in a way, and we haven't wanted as a church to assert our First Amendment and say, "This is what we believe; this is our doctrine, and the devil may care." That isn't our intent at all. That's why in 1995 we entered into an arrangement with them. At that time we, in a sense, took out of our records those Holocaust survivors or Holocaust victims for whom we had performed temple work, and we have been actually diligent since in not sending to our temples Jewish names unless they were sent by Jewish members of our church who have sent in the names of their own relatives.

Now, occasionally, through the work of well-intentioned, sometimes slightly overzealous members of our church, Jewish names have found their way into our temples, and where that has been made known to us, we've removed them in our attempt to not create offense. So insofar as we're able to adapt to their needs, we have done that without compromising our basic religious principles, which we really can't do. So I think at this point we're at a fairly happy compromise.

russell - you never had a morman over to your house for a drink. it did not happen. now study the morman religion and you will know why.

Dan,
Thank you that is helpful. I guess my concern stems from the conversion of Jews, especially Holocaust Survivors (I read that Ann Franks was recently baptised by the LDS Church). I also have family that survived the Holocaust and were tortured for their religous beliefs. I believe it is disrespetful to offer baptism to people (Jewish adn other faiths) who have died because of religions prosecution. They strongly believe in their faith, died for it, and this should not be second guessed.

Would you be offended if a religion existed that exumed bodies (i know you dont do that) and poured wine, booze and cigarettes down the throat of deceased Mormans? You do not choose to drink alcohol during your life, should i force by beliefs on you after you are unable to make the decision for yourself?

I am sorry for the grim example, but i am trying to display the outrage that non-Mormons feel against this practice. I know that we will never agree on this. I am just asking Mormons to look at the situation from another perspective and perhaps reconsider this practice. If not on a church-wide scale, then on a person level.

As a member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, I refuse to bantor back and forth with those who wish to damn me and my beliefs. In all my years of church membership, I have never found church members or leaders to be negative and damning towards other religions, and truly believe that is not God's will or intention to see His children throw final judgements and ultimatums upon each other. I truly hope that those who have hate and disdain for a people as a whole, search within themselves for the Christ like love that they claim to live, because Our Savior, Jesus Christ led a life of love towards all.
I wanted to respond to Dana's request for further information on a practice of the church, and she seems sincere in her desire to know. I didn't see a response from anyone, and I didn't want it to be assumed that this is something secretive or swept under the rug. We believe in performing ordinances that in the Gospel, we believe to be necessary to progression towards our eternal salvation,and we do that work for those who have passed on from this life and did not have the opportunity. It is something that is done in their behalf, to therefore choose whether they accept that work that was done for them. It is in no way forced upon them, and they are not counted in the church membership number. The 11 million plus members are the number of people that are currently living members of the church, that have been baptized. It does not count those children under 8 years old (the age of accountability and baptism) that currently attend church with their families and friends.
It has nothing to do with status or numbers. It has everything to do with allowing those who have passed on, every opportunity to the salvation that we know to be true and necessary.

Dana,

Your concern about baptisms for the dead is understandable but misinformed.

1) Mormons have scriptural reference to support the practice. Others will debate this point but Mormons claim to take the benefit of doubt as they also claim to have a living Prophet.

2) They're simply trying to give any who chooses to accept baptism the opportunity to accept it. Contrast this to other Christian religions that simply say that if you died prior to being baptised or lived in some remote corner of the world where the gospel nmever quite made it, you're just plain out of luck (or in "Limbo"?). Most Mormons I've spoken with just can't accept that idea.

3) Typically, Mormons do this work for their own personal ancestors who have died, usually decades or centurie earlier. They also perform marriages "for time and all eternity" for deceased couples who may choose to stick together longer that "'til death".

4) Think of it like being offered a job. If you don't accept the job, you never had it. Baptisms for the dead are merely offering someone who has departed an offer of bapttism. No one is actually taking corpses and putting them in water or the such. You need not be disturbed. I beleive that the "eternal marriages" are also optional ... who's to say you want to be stuck with that guy forever.

5) The LDS Church does not include persons who have been 'offered baptism' in the official rosters of the Church (or counts). This for the simple fact that no one knows if they have accepted the offer yet.

Seems the attack on Canyon's philosophy has started again.

While I have come to grow some respect for Canyon, I am gonna have to just politely add my bit and hope I can be met with kindness and respect from everyone else.

I don't spend alot of time judging people. I generally don't form an opinion until I get to know them or they do something that just puts an opinion in my head. I am not about to start now. While I don't know much of the Mormon faith, I will say this:

When I was in England, my wife and I were visited by a couple of Mormon missionaries whom we invited into our home. We chatted, and we conversed on our beliefs. They never once said we were wrong, and did not force their beliefs on us. We made friends with them and whenever they would come around, we'd have them over for a drink. We even attended a church service. It didn't seem that bad, and we were met with kindness.

If people of all faiths were this compassionate and understanding, it seems to me that the world might fall into line a little better than how it is now. Different faiths can coexist, as long as the people of those faiths can get over themselves and their preconcieved notions. Just sit and talk, have a drink, eat some pie.

Canyon my friend, I am sure you can agree with me on that. And doesn't Marco Polo owe us a beer?

Yeah, Canyon Shearer. Have you read the Book of Mormon? Because based on your comments it sounds like you haven't. If you have, then you don't understand it. The whole book is focused around Jesus Christ, the Savior of the world. It is a second witness that Jesus is the Christ, and it teaches that only through Him are we saved. It testifies of the divinity of Christ, and in no way contradicts the Bible.

I use both the Book of Mormon and the Bible in my study of the scriptures, and have read them many times. I have not come across anything in the Book of Mormon or the Bible that contradict each other, and therefore my belief system is not damaged. It only reinforces my belief in Christ, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords.

Now, since I mentioned that nothing in the Book of Mormon and the Bible contradicts each other, there may be those who will point out scriptures in the Bible and Book of Mormon that they feel are contradictory. That doesn't shake me, because I have heard every argument that exists, and according to the way I interpret the Bible, those scriptures are in perfect harmony with what the Book of Mormon teaches.

I love it how people try and tell us what we believe. I grew up in the church, and I served a two year mission in Texas. I met a lot of people who tried to tell me what our church was all about. I always thought that was interesting, because it’s like an auto mechanic trying to tell a jetliner mechanic how to fix a jet engine. No matter what anybody says, and no matter how convincing people's arguments are against us, I know that the Book of Mormon is the word of God.

"Allowing others to worship in an ACCEPTED way" as you state, implies that any other religion is unacceptable. We have been given the opportunity during our life time, and choose not to follow. It is a slap in the face and basically saying, "You have chosen incorrectly, we (knowing better than you) will give you another chance". If you love and respect your fellow man, you should accept the choices they make including the right to choose religion other than yours. It is not right or wrong, it is up to that individual and should not be second guessed.

This practice is one of the major contributing factors in the animosity towards Mormons. I believe this practice should be stopped. You are free to believe what you want, but those beliefs should not be forced upon others.

Dana,

Baptisms for the Dead is an opportunity for Latter-Day Saints to perform ordinances for their ancestors who have passed on, and did not have the chance to be baptized while on earth. Since the Bible states that baptism is necessary to enter the kingdom of God, we believe that by performing such ordinances by proxy on earth, those deceased people may still have that ordinance and blessing extended to them. Since we also believe that those souls have the opportunity to accept or reject this ordinance, along with the gospel, it is hardly something that is "forced" onto them. And if someone does not hold the same beliefs as the Mormon church, then it really shouldn't make a difference to them what we do. I am a convert to the church and I have found such beauty and peace in the temple ordinances and the many blessings that have come from striving to live a Christ-like life and learning to love EVERYONE around me. It has also been my experience that you receive the most accurate information from the horse's mouth, so if you would like to know more, I suggest visiting www.mormon.org and you will find the answers to most of your questions there. Thanks.

"It’s great to hear people who believe in something and can articulate it without sounding crazy or defensive."
quoted from NYTimes article on the documentary. I think that this point has been well proven in this blog. I respect any person who can believe and not be effected when they are criticized or mocked. Believe the words or not, the mormons stand for something and hold true to what they believe in! That's remarkable in and of its self in todays world.

Dana, no one can take away your agency or right to believe what you like, be it here or throughout the eternities.

Because we believe that our spirits are eternal, we believe that we go on to progress and learn after this life. The practice of baptism allows individuals the opportunity to live and worship in an accepted way. If a person lived their entire life without being given the opportunity to learn or accept the gospel, it would be a great tragedy. It will be up to that person to choose whether they believe or not.

At no time has Jesus Christ ever forced anyone. He simply said, “…come follow me” (Luke 18:22). It is your choice as to whether you will or not.

BGONE wrote, "My first encounter with a Mormon missionary included the fact that several (all?) the wittnesses to Josheph Smith's "visions" recanted before their deaths and said as much as it was just plain made up. In spite of that I was expected to embrace Mormon teachings. So being an admitted hoax hasn't even slowed them down."

That's pure balderdash. Not one of the witness ever denied their testimony found in the front of the Book of Mormon. Not one. Some left the church it is true; some of them came back; but to the end, they stood by their witness of the book.

As to the question of our practice of doing baptisms for the dead, not to worry. According to our doctrine the baptism is only effective for the dead person if s/he accepts the ordinance in the hereafter.

the last thing a religion has to do it worry about is its holy books conforming with other religions books.
each religion has the right to say what it believes, and even has the right to say that the true path is through their religion, and no other. a religion can even tell its people not toassociate with members of other religions, and may even say to hate them.
where i draw the line is a religion that teaches that it not only hates you, but has the right, because of a divine demand, to kidnapp you, torture you, hold you for ransom, and murder you, unless you convert.
i know of only one religion around today, whose holy books, demands that which i feel is beyond the right of any religion to do, and that is islam. and remember that i said its religious books not the independant acts of individuals.
actaully if we use that its islam again. to murder, torture, hold for ransom, or force conversions today you must violate the old and new testament, but you would be living up to the age old islamic values.

Mr Marty, Interesting and mostly correct assessment of the history of Later-Day Saints religion.

I love the immediate rush to comparing BOM to Bible. They're both hoaxes. My first encounter with a Mormon missionary included the fact that several (all?) the wittnesses to Josheph Smith's "visions" recanted before their deaths and said as much as it was just plain made up. In spite of that I was expected to embrace Mormon teachings. So being an admitted hoax hasn't even slowed them down.

Being a "take care of our own" has a great deal of appeal especially in impoverished regions, Latin America for example. It's not a bad idea as I see it. Take care of number one, me dictates that I do much if not all the things they advocate, year supply of food etc.

In the end religion, all religions ruin civilizations. Where are all the great faithers of history? Where are the children of the pyramid builders? Name one that survived. Look at the turmoil in Muslim land, the poverty in Latin America. What has religion done for them?

The Mormons with their "prepare for disaster" attitude may manage to buck that trend, religion destroys. They seem to be honest, (at least the one missionary) their religion, the god part of it is a hoax. Gods never come through in times of peril whild being prepared at least gives one a fighting chance.

Joe Smith just imitated Moses, http://www.hoax-buster.org/sellyoursoul The Bible and the Book of Mormon are both hoaxes. I vote for the Book of Mormon as the more innocent of the two.

Could somebody please speak to the "Baptisms After Death". I find this to be a disturbing practice of the LDS church. If I choose not to be Mormon during my lifetime, where does the church get off changing this after I have died?

I find this practice to be yet another self-righteous practice and blatant disrespect for fellow man. Is it a practice to boost the numbers of Mormans so the LDS church can state that they are the largest group of individuals? Why does the LDS church believe that their beliefs supercede other religions?
Please explain this practice to me, and the reasoning behind it.

Oh, look, it's Mrs. Pot and Mr Kettle. Look, religions are weird. All of them. To an outsider, every one of them sounds like a deranged confidence scheme, and to an insider, every one of them looks like the obvious and self-evident truth and the sole light of the world.
Mormons have their own unique weirdnesses, but I don't see anyone out there who matches islam or fundamentalist christianity on sheer cancerous pathology. Mormons aren't hurting anyone, and unlike fundamentalists like Ms. Shearer, they don't insist on constantly telling the rest of us how we're wrong and are going to hell. Frankly, I'd rather live next to a whole church of mormons than a single motivated fundamentalist evangelical. Honest to god, I hope they're right about them all being snatched up in the rapture,'cause then the rest of us will finally be able to get a little peace and quiet. Us and the mormons.

I find it that Canyon claims to know so much about our faith when in reality he seems to know very little of the Bible, the only book that he believes to be the word of God. Just a couple of errors on your rash and hasty judgement of something you know so little about Canyon.
1. You quoted a scripture in 2nd Timothy that has to do with the general apostacy of the church of Christ and actually refers to people who like yourself have ' itchy ears' and perhaps itchy fingers to judge others via internet.
2. You said that the Book of Mormon is contradictory yet you failed to even say 'where' and 'how', interestingly enough, I'd wager you've never even read the Book of Mormon, and if you have read a bit, you've only read it with a very closed mind and heart which seems all to likely judging by your cruel comments.
3. You then go on to say that man will be saved by faith through faith and NOT by works. Which proves you understand so little of your own Bible (which abundantly proves that doctrine false).
I find that to be a very self-destroying doctrine as it lessens the determination of an individual to conform to all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Well said the Savior in Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith into me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kindgom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Hmmm? Sounds like salvation is a bit more than lip service don't you think Canyon? More? In the epistle to the Romans from Paul starting from around verse 6 Paul begins to explain what the Lord expects of us and how he will judge us. Verse 6 starts out by saying he will " render to every man according to his DEEDS " I invite you to read the whole chapter... but in case you don't I'm going to go ahead and let you read verse 13 " For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." In the scripture you ignorantly cited, Paul was actually teaching the Ephesian Saints that salvation in the kingdom of God did not result from the ordinances and performances (meaning, the works) of the Mosaic despensation, but that it came because of the grace of God coupled with faith and gospel obedience. (meaning, the works inherent in the gospel obedience). Obviously Canyon, Paul would not teach one thing to the Ephesians and another to the Romans would he? Wouldn't that be a....CONTRADICTION?!? Clearly Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ would not contradict himself he is just doing what he was called to do,that is to be a special witness of Christ and to pursuade all men to come unto Him and be saved by faith and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

I would also like to sum up by stating as the Savior so excellently put it, " By thy words thou shalt be justified and by the words thou shall be condemned." I warningly invite you to be more careful about how quickly you judge things that you do not understand in the SLIGHTEST. The Book of Mormon in ZERO ways contradicts the Bible (which we hold dear to our hearts as the word of God) and helps us obtain a greater understanding of its teachings. Apparently its paid off, as I,a 21 year old college student was able to help you understand a bit more about works and salvation.

I find it that Canyon claims to know so much about our faith when in reality he seems to know very little of the Bible, the only book that he believes to be the word of God. Just a couple of errors on your rash and hasty judgement of something you know so little about Canyon.
1. You quoted a scripture in 2nd Timothy that has to do with the general apostacy of the church of Christ and actually refers to people who like yourself have ' itchy ears' and perhaps itchy fingers to judge others via internet.
2. You said that the Book of Mormon is contradictory yet you failed to even say 'where' and 'how', interestingly enough, I'd wager you've never even read the Book of Mormon, and if you have read a bit, you've only read it with a very closed mind and heart which seems all to likely judging by your cruel comments.
3. You then go on to say that man will be saved by faith through faith and NOT by works. Which proves you understand so little of your own Bible (which abundantly proves that doctrine false).
I find that to be a very self-destroying doctrine as it lessens the determination of an individual to conform to all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Well said the Savior in Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith into me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kindgom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Hmmm? Sounds like salvation is a bit more than lip service don't you think Canyon? More? In the epistle to the Romans from Paul starting from around verse 6 Paul begins to explain what the Lord expects of us and how he will judge us. Verse 6 starts out by saying he will " render to every man according to his DEEDS " I invite you to read the whole chapter... but in case you don't I'm going to go ahead and let you read verse 13 " For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." In the scripture you ignorantly cited, Paul was actually teaching the Ephesian Saints that salvation in the kingdom of God did not result from the ordinances and performances (meaning, the works) of the Mosaic despensation, but that it came because of the grace of God coupled with faith and gospel obedience. (meaning, the works inherent in the gospel obedience). Obviously Canyon, Paul would not teach one thing to the Ephesians and another to the Romans would he? Wouldn't that be a....CONTRADICTION?!? Clearly Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ would not contradict himself he is just doing what he was called to do,that is to be a special witness of Christ and to pursuade all men to come unto Him and be saved by faith and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

I would also like to sum up by stating as the Savior so excellently put it, " By thy words thou shalt be justified and by the words thou shall be condemned." I warningly invite you to be more careful about how quickly you judge things that you do not understand in the SLIGHTEST. The Book of Mormon in ZERO ways contradicts the Bible (which we hold dear to our hearts as the word of God) and helps us obtain a greater understanding of its teachings. Apparently its paid off, as I,a 21 year old college student was able to help you understand a bit more about works and salvation.

I find it that Canyon claims to know so much about our faith when in reality he seems to know very little of the Bible, the only book that he believes to be the word of God. Just a couple of errors on your rash and hasty judgement of something you know so little about Canyon.
1. You quoted a scripture in 2nd Timothy that has to do with the general apostacy of the church of Christ and actually refers to people who like yourself have ' itchy ears' and perhaps itchy fingers to judge others via internet.
2. You said that the Book of Mormon is contradictory yet you failed to even say 'where' and 'how', interestingly enough, I'd wager you've never even read the Book of Mormon, and if you have read a bit, you've only read it with a very closed mind and heart which seems all to likely judging by your cruel comments.
3. You then go on to say that man will be saved by faith through faith and NOT by works. Which proves you understand so little of your own Bible (which abundantly proves that doctrine false).
I find that to be a very self-destroying doctrine as it lessens the determination of an individual to conform to all of the laws and ordinances of the gospel. Well said the Savior in Matthew 7:21 "Not every one that saith into me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kindgom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven." Hmmm? Sounds like salvation is a bit more than lip service don't you think Canyon? More? In the epistle to the Romans from Paul starting from around verse 6 Paul begins to explain what the Lord expects of us and how he will judge us. Verse 6 starts out by saying he will " render to every man according to his DEEDS " I invite you to read the whole chapter... but in case you don't I'm going to go ahead and let you read verse 13 " For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified." In the scripture you ignorantly cited, Paul was actually teaching the Ephesian Saints that salvation in the kingdom of God did not result from the ordinances and performances (meaning, the works) of the Mosaic despensation, but that it came because of the grace of God coupled with faith and gospel obedience. (meaning, the works inherent in the gospel obedience). Obviously Canyon, Paul would not teach one thing to the Ephesians and another to the Romans would he? Wouldn't that be a....CONTRADICTION?!? Clearly Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ would not contradict himself he is just doing what he was called to do,that is to be a special witness of Christ and to pursuade all men to come unto Him and be saved by faith and obedience to the laws and ordinances of the gospel.

I would also like to sum up by stating as the Savior so excellently put it, " By thy words thou shalt be justified and by the words thou shall be condemned." I warningly invite you to be more careful about how quickly you judge things that you do not understand in the SLIGHTEST. The Book of Mormon in ZERO ways contradicts the Bible (which we hold dear to our hearts as the word of God) and helps us obtain a greater understanding of its teachings. Apparently its paid off, as I,a 21 year old college student was able to help you understand a bit more about works and salvation.

"If I were following an angel named Moroni, I wouldn't expect you to add that extra m..."

But then, wouldn't its name be "Moronism"?

Patrik,

Can you explain a little bit more what you said -- both where you cite this doctrine from specically and the "actions" you're reffering too?

Hey Canyon Shearer,

Ever read the BOM?

just curious

Canyon,

If I understand you correctly, you're asserting that works have nothing to do with our justification before God at the final judgement? James 2:17-26 would seem to contradict this:

17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?
21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?
22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?
23 And the scripture was fulfilled which saith, Abraham believed God, and it was imputed unto him for righteousness: and he was called the Friend of God.
24 Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only.
25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Your characterization of Latter-day Saints believing in a Jesus who is impotent and unimportant is completely false. Anyone who could make such a claim has not studied LDS doctrine with the intent of understanding it. We, too, cry unto all to repent and undergo a mighty change of heart, to come unto Christ and be saved through the gifts of His Atonement. We also believe that we must manifest that change of heart by putting that faith to work. One should be actively living the Gospel as the Master taught. Ours is a religion that is lived, not just believed.

I find your assertion that Jesus was never married, and never had a family, to be interesting. Mind telling me where the scriptures say that? Why is it that people assume that because the scriptures are silent on the subject? That would be like assuming that you must be a convicted felon because nothing in your postings say that you aren't. The Church hasn't taken a position on this one way or the other, most likely because the scriptures are silent on the matter. Have you had personal revelation concerning the Savior's marital status? If you have, then you're as kooky and hell-bound as you accuse us of being. If not, you're interpreting scripture to your own ends, making you as kooky and hell-bound as you accuse us of being.

Herein lies the problem of attacking the faith of another, rather than simply espousing your own. When you choose to prove someone else wrong, rather than just assert what you believe, your message gets lost in the negativity. I think we both believe in the same Jesus, the Only Begotten Son of God in the flesh. He is the Light of the World, and the only way by which man may be saved. We differ in theology. While we may never be able to reconcile our differences, we should be able to discuss them without damning each other in the process. Rather than interpret another's faith for them, why not try asking questions about the differences? The result should be far more enlightening.

Mormon's taught prior to being denied their charitable status, that their GOD marked the EVIL people by burning their skin black.

Their new bible lacks this statement, but I am sure it still exists within their hearts, bsaed on their actions alone.

Ginny,

The Book of Mormon is contradictory to the Bible. Either God made a mistake when sending Moroni to translate it, or it's not written by God. One of the great proofs of the 66-book Bible's continuity is that each author, despite there being 40-42 of them, writes with the same introduction, style, and message. The Book of Moroni doesn't match up with the introduction, style, or message...it's not from God.

If you wanted me to teach my Christian message without using the New Testament, I would have no problem. If you wanted me to teach Creation without using Genesis, I would have no problem, if you wanted me to preach the Gospel out of any CHAPTER of any book, I would have no problem. My doctrine is firmly based in 66-books and doesn't match the doctrine found in the Book of Mormon in any way. You can't preach your moron doctrine from any book in the Bible.

If there is a single merit from Mormonism, is that it makes Muslim's look foolish. The Koran says in the very beginning, "If ye are in doubt as to what We[Trinity] have revealed from time to time to Our[Trinity] servant, then produce a Book like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith."

Thanks to Joseph Smith I can laugh and say, "Somebody did write such a foolish book as the Koran!"

The important part about all this, is that if Islam is right, I'm going to Heaven, if Mormonism is right, I'm going to the Telestial Kingdom. If the Bible is right, you're not going to any Heaven or any Kingdom, but rather a very hot, very bad place.

The LDS church recognizes jesus christ; a person who shares a name with a very famous God. This jesus christ is a created being, the brother of the devil, and a god; but not THE God. This jesus christ was not married and had no children, and thus was a bad Mormon.

There is another Jesus Christ, who, when asked to describe Himself, couldn't compare to any earthly thing; the only way Jesus Christ can be explained is with the term, "I AM." He is preexistent, never changing, all encompassing. He knows the name of all of the stars in the infinite heavens, and measures the Universe with the span of His hand.

He will judge the world in righteousness, and those found lacking will be cast into the fire. If you think that anything you have done will save you from Hell, then you are not saved, and you will not see Heaven; not the first, second, or third level; because by Faith you are saved through faith, it is the gift of God; NOT of works, lest any man should boast.

If you expect you're going to get to Heaven and have an entourage that says, "All hail the god Ginny Wallace!" then you're not going. My entrance into Heaven will be, "What an amazing God we serve that would forgive such a wretch as Canyon Shearer."

Your religion is intertwined with confusion, contradiction, and gnosticism; I understand it better than most, and I know that it is merely a portion of the broad path that leads to destruction.

Canyon Shearer, you have given a discourse on doctrine of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day
Saints exactly as it is preached in that church!! It distresses me that all the holier-than-thous among the Christian faith who are not "Mormon" don't know a thing about what we teach! We teach all that there is in the Holy Bible and then from the Book of Mormon! Come to the Mormon Church and you will see that you have erred greatly in thinking that we don't teach of Christ, pray of Christ and follow Christ!

I suppose the best way to determine if Mormonism will catch on is to go to the only Library of Books that maintains 100% perfect prophecy.

"The time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables." - 2 Timothy 4:2-4

Mormonism is not a great threat to the secular world, it is not a great threat to the god of this world, and it certainly is not a great threat to the other manmade religions of the world. Mormonism is not even its right name. If I were following an angel named Moroni, I wouldn't expect you to add that extra m...

Mormonism is only one in a million of the johny-come-lately special-knowledge based religions which place man first and God second.

The Bible says that if you are in the truth, the world will hate you. Lately the only sect that is hated is fundamentalist Christianity...not squishy christianists who are indifferent from Mormons or Muslims. The christianist culture and Mormonism have one thing in common, they aren't worshipping the real Jesus. Their jesus is an all loving, all forgiving, all ignoring, impotent, unimportant piece of the religion. All of the religions of the world, save one, place man in charge of his positive ends.

Jesus Christ, the King of Kings, and the Lord of Lords, has promised to judge the world in righteousness. This Living Jesus will not overlook a single sin, not the smallest of lies, nor the smallest of thieveries, He will bring all covetous to justice just as swiftly and just has stictly as He will see to it that all murderers, adulterers, rapists, pedophiles and the like are justly punished. A sin in the eyes of a Perfect and Holy Judge is deadly, God will demand an account from anyone who has so much as used His name in vain. Sins of the flesh, sins of the heart...they are all as deadly and damnable as premeditated mass murder.

In order to ensure the purity of Heaven and not let the smallest sin enter, God will judge the world and throw all sinners into the Lake of Fire. A single sin would destroy Heaven, just as it caused the destruction of this world.

The Mormon religion, as well as Islam, secular christianity, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholicism, and a million others, have the special way to get in, and that special way is naming a specific prophet or doctrine which allows them to earn their own way into Heaven.

There is no way into Heaven that a man can earn. Our damnation is assured. But for the love of God, all hope would be lost. Jesus Christ, God manifest in the flesh, came to the earth He created, born of a virgin, subjected to all the temptation that a man could endure, and He came through it unblemished. Christ took our punishment, a single lash He had not earned, but He took the hell we so justly deserved. He became our sin, our curse, on the Cross at Calvary. He died in our place, and we can be redeemed to our Creator because our fine is paid.

Repent of your sins, and God will create a new heart in you, your sins will be forgiven in Christ, and your inheritence of Heaven will be assured.

It is by grace that we are saved, not any sort of works, we are forgiven despite not being worthy of forgiveness. If you'll humble yourself before God, He'll lift you up, not because of any works we have performed, but because we're great sinners forgiven by a good God. Receive the gift of life, and be born into the family of God.

Or follow the moroni's of the world, and perish.

"There is a way which seems right to a man, but the end is the way to death." - Proverbs 14:12