Natural Companions

before we were married, DW #2 had a son ('out of wedlock') that died in infancy... She was single.

Later, she joined TSCC and kicked out her b.friend, then went thru the temple as a single gal.

Could she have had the son sealed to her? with or without the father's permission??
To my thinking, the MMM (+ Hofmann) is/are the Granddaddies of them all.
the MMM was a 'glorious' lesson on obedience to leaders which the LDS REFUSE to learn. Hofmann was a lesson in another cover-up, from the Very Top.
(GASP) what if the mishs were to return unexpected one day and find the adults having a nooner on the living room couch/floor/kitchen table?

(DOUBLE GASP) what if that nooner involved something other than the missionary position?

you heard it first here.

no, it's not a youth speaker
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13834042/

anyone UP for a bit more mainstreaming?
mor.mon.i.tus:

A pathology, whose spread is by uncertain means; perhaps partially social

Sx: A strong aversion to principles & concepts, to main or central philosophy. An over-riding focus on details, minutae, and on the banal aspects of religious thought, morals, and ideals.
Observers report that sufferers cannot differentiate between simple right & wrong without outside quidance.

Dx: repeated mantras heard, 'Follow the prophet', 'Obey the Brethern'
and 'God will not let his prophets lead his people astray'.

Rx: deprogramming. voluntary is infinately more effective than forced or suggested, which are contra-indicated. Removal from LDS influence/control is often helpful.

rt self-centeredness, self-righteousness

Jim A,

I'm gonna copy and paste from the LDS website about the verses you posted Amos 8:11

http://scriptures.lds.org/amos/8/11-12

Here's what your own website says concerning this prophecy. The title is at the top.

Amos prophesies the downfall of Israel—There will be a famine of hearing the word of the Lord

"the downfall of Israel". Now I never said there would not be an apostacy, but this is why I insisted on "COMPLETE" apostasy. And as we can see today, most Jews still do not believe in Christ. So, I agree with the LDS in that there was an apostasy of some sort, but not world wide. Solely within the people of Israel. And I do think that it is possible that this apostasy could be referring to end times in the future from present, although this is only my skeptical thinking.

I am in a hurry a little right now, so I'll make a quick comment concerning Christ's "ordinances". I think their great. All forms of worship are good for the Lord as long as they do not contradict scripture. I think we can agree on that. And to comment on that last statement, my beliefs are stricly biblical. And I will comment on baptism and laying on of hands really quick. I don't have time to find the verses right now and post them though. But I believe baptism is good. It's a form of worship and a public acknowledgment of your faith in Jesus. Laying on of hands is a form of worship that biblically was used for healing or recieving of the Holy Spirit. Although many recieved the Holy Spirit without the laying on of hands and also many were healed without the laying on of hands as well. So laying on of hands is not quite necessary, but to whatever individual can be an important part of worship. I leave worship up to the individual in part because we are all different and I think worship can come in many different flavors. But as we know, not everyone has the same taste. I will come back to this subject a little later, but I gotta get ready for work. Hope you all have a blessed day.

God bless you

David,

There are scriptures in the Bible that refer to an apostasy:

Amos 8: 11 Behold, the days come, saith the Lord GOD, that I will send a famine in the land, not a famine of bread, nor a thirst for water, but of hearing the words of the LORD:
12 And they shall wander from sea to sea, and from the north even to the east, they shall run to and fro to seek the word of the LORD, and shall not find it.

If you care to see others, let me know.

Also, as RTC has commented, Christ instituted ordinances, such as baptism, and laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost. These ordinances can only properly be done with his authority, which he gave to his apostles. Clearly these were an important part of Christ's teachings, so how do you reconcile Christ's teachings of the need for these ordinances with your beliefs?

Hello again RTC,

I think you have been mistaken or misled. But I don't know anywhere in the Bible where it speaks of a complete apostacy. Also, I think you have the wrong idea who holds the keys to hades.

Rev 1:18

I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Of course that would be Jesus.

Concerning priesthood. I think you have the wrong idea again. In the OT priests were assigned by God to teach and lead into following the laws. They were the mediators between man and God. But Christ came and became the mediator between man and God.

"For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time" (1 Tim. 2:5, 6).

And who are the priests these days.

But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

10Which in time past were not a people, but are now the people of God: which had not obtained mercy, but now have obtained mercy. 1 Pet 2:9-10.

I invite you to read the whole context of these verses so that you know I am not taking them out of their meaning. But to save time and space I just included the main points.

You see, believers are the priests. All of us who believe in Christ are part of this royal priesthood. Not just a group of old guys sitting around telling everyone what the Bible means.

Your right, Christ did set up His church. He is the Head of that church. It is located within us. Upon accepting Christ and recieving the Holy Spirit, we are now a part of that church. The church is located everywhere. Wherever there are believers, there you have a piece of the complete body of Christ, which is the church. I've been trying to explain to you that it is not a particular location. Definately not in Salt Lake. Jesus never said that His church would be in any particular location because He knows the Church is everywhere.

By the way, I accept the Bible as a whole. OT and NT. And of course the OT is still relevant even post-Christ. Like Paul says, if it weren't for the law, then how would I know what sin is? For this, the OT is very important.

I do ask again where you get the idea of a complete apostacy. I'm curious on this. Also, keep in mind "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but My words will never pass away". If there were a COMPLETE apostacy, then this is clearly a contradiction. Have a great day.

Here's a quote I thought of one day.

"So many people look for the right church, but not the right God".

God bless

David -

Thank you for your reply. I am still curious as to what your answer would be in regards to The Church that Jesus Christ set up when he was upon the earth... meaning, IF you don't believe there was a complete apostasy, then what happened to those that were given authority by the Savior to administer in his stead? For truly he did set up His Church as it should be and where is it to be found?

He said "I am "the" way", "the" truth", "the" life... Which to me is saying that I am a god of order, not confusion. Not every man walking in his own way.

You also imply that the LDS Church is inclusive, but in this you would be mistaken, as this is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day-Saints, and the doors are open to all who are desirous of coming into the fold of God.

What we do know regarding an apostasy, is that those that were given this authority were eventually killed and this authority was not passed on to others. The keys of administration and the priesthood slowly were lost to the church for various reasons, including rejection of the members to listen to those remaining in authority to teach and lead them.

Therefore, corruption within the church led to an eventual and complete apostasy.

David, it seems as though you really search the Bible to know what it is teaching, and this is awesome. How do you reconcile the need for authority and keys today? What about apostles and prophets? Do you accept the teachings of the Old Testament and how does that teaching fit into your understanding of the Saviors teachings of the New Testament? Is the Old Testament now dead or is there life in these teachings still?
rtc

Anonymous:
The Catholic Church did not exist at the time of Jesus. It is a politically motivated organization instituted to gain a roman emperor more power over the people. Many of it's doctrines were dictated by the Roman emperors for political gain, and therefore many of its doctrines have a source other than from Jesus’ teachings. Even its chain of command is not from any of Jesus’ teachings.
This is why many of the branch faiths broke off. They realized the Catholics were wrong about many things.
That is not to say that the Catholics are no good. God loves them as well; they are just a faith of man’s doctrine, not God’s.
In addition, not all Christian faiths are a branch of the Catholics. Read your history.

Henry James:
On your comment on paradise and heaven, read your scriptures.
If that isn’t enough, ask God.

RTC,

Thank you so much for such a thoughtful and respectful response. Of course as you may know I might disagree with some beliefs of the LDS, but I intend to show you why.

First of all, you do recognize that the true church of Christ is His body. I'm happy you understand this because this is important. the LDS has taken it one step farther and claiming that they are the body of Christ. Reading Paul's description of the true church does not suggest in any way that the true church is an organization of men with a particular name that excludes other denominations. The true church is on an individual basis, not a pre-determined group of people. Each individual making a complete body of Christ regardless of where you go on Sundays. It is those who have faith in Christ that make a complete body of Christ. I have faith in Christ and believed I am saved. I do not belong to the LDS though. So the LDS claims they are the true church and the true representation of the body of Christ. So this means becasue I am not a member of the LDS, that in their eyes I am not a part of the body of Christ and therefore not saved.

I would like to comment on something you said on your first post. Here it is

"For surely everything of which you posted is evidence that you are one that has truly searched the Bible and realizes what is missing in the world today of the original Church that Jesus Christ organized when he was here upon the earth. "

Actually it's the complete opposite. I don't think theres anything missing. I think God's word is complete and inerrant and therefore sufficient enough for man to obtain salvation. I think there has been too much added. And what I've come to realize is that those who added to the Bible have contradicted the Bible. For example: LDS claim there is marriage in heaven. Jesus said there is no marriage in heaven. Matt 22. I should say that this point of doctrine by the LDS is not an added doctrine but rather a replaced doctrine about what Jesus spoke about. I think that's a big NO-NO.

You say that you know the LDS is the true church and I say that I know it isn't. I think we should encourage each other not to listen to one another about our opinions and find out through God's Word. God instructed us to test everything to see if it really is from God. Quite easy to do I must say. It must be Biblically correct. I have tested the LDS faith and found the beliefs to be not just ani-biblical, but contradictory to the Bible. I have also tested Joseph Smith to see if he truly was a prophet from God. According to Deut 18:20-22 a prophet sent by God who prophecies must be 100% accurate in his prophecies, otherwise he is not a prophet from God. Joseph Smith had several prophecies that failed. So, not a true prophet according to the Bible. Therefore, not a true representation of God as well.

You ask where I attend church. I kind of go everywhere. Mostly non-denominational churches. I don't belong to a particular church organization. Like I said, I belong to Christ now, not a man-made church organization. As long as the church I attend remains biblical in it's teachings, I feel comfortable there. Of course it is the Bible that we base our faith on.

I do enjoy these conversations with people of other faiths. Especially those who share the same book as I do. I'd like to know where you get the idea of a complete apostacy of the church which mormons claim that required God to "restore" His church. Now keep in mind "complete" apostacy. Please show me where.

Have a geat day RTC. I hope we can keep this discussion going. No matter what we may agree or disagree on, I love you as a brother and this is why I'm here. So I hope that no matter what the outcome, we can discuss these matters of faith with complete respect for one another and maintain a healthy conversation.

God bless you

Mel -

Unfortunately, many people do not really love themselves as they should, because they have not come to know their true worth. For this reason they must come to know Christ by DOING his works as he has commanded them, so that they may come to know not only Him, but themselves, as He created them. Isn't it wonderful?

How sad to think it selfish of him that we would not be expected to learn of us as we are lifted unto Him...

Why think this blasphemous?

I believe this to be the epitomy of grace working miracles on the souls a men!
rtc

Let's get back to basic. Good works are the fruit of love in our heart. If you have love in your heart, you have Christ because Christ is love. The bottomline here is Love as in love your neighbor as yourself. If there is love in every heart, there is peace and all these ramblings here is over. This is the sum of all Christ's teachings. Atheist and theist alike if they let love reign in their heart, harmony and peace reigns. What a wonderful world it could be.

David -

Maybe you are tired of hearing from me, but I am waiting up late for my son to come home from a John Mayer concert. lol

Sooo my friend, I can't resist commenting once again and this time on your most recent post, since I have time to kill.

I wanted you to know a little bit more about the LDS perspective of how we view our salvation. My understanding goes like this...

I believe that my salvation is fixed and immovable. PERIOD. Now what does that mean? Well, it means that Jesus Christ has done what is necessary for me to receive the ultimate glory possible, and you too. In fact, he has done this for every single person who will ever be born on this earth whether they know it or not.

Meaning = Deity has done their part 100%. They are bound by law to keep their end of the bargain. Done deal. Signed, sealed, delivered, I am bought!

What is the catch? = Submit to the law. Follow the Savior, Keep his commandments and then do my best to become like him.

So, the plan for salvation is a sure thing, for those who love the Savior and willingly follow him. Remember, there are two choices in this world. You must make a choice between which master? It must be evident by your actions, and it will be, and one of them will reward you for it.

I am sorry if this makes some uncomfortable that justice is involved, but if it were not, then why did he come and "hang" around to show us the way?

I believe there is much more at stake here than manners. I believe that it is imperative that we become something different than the natural man that we are, IF we are to claim that inheritance of which so many feel entitlement.
rtc

Flashlight-

So nice to see you and I really appreciated your comments.
rtc

David -

After my last post I decided I best tell you "why" I loved your recent posts considering your final statement in your comment here...

"I know I will be getting a harsh response for this, but I expect that. I hope not to be offensive, but clearly I am trying to tell you the truth."

David, I am sure you would not believe me, BUT I will tell you that most mormons reading this particular post would be shaking their heads, and NOT because they would be offended in any way whatsoever. Now, I hope I do NOT offend you by what I am going to say to you, because this is not my intent.

But brother, from the LDS perspective, you are RIGHT ON my friend! It is not my intent to sound confusing either, as I realize that you do not believe that the LDS Church is The Church of Jesus Christ here in these latter-days, but I tell you from the bottom of my heart that it is!

For surely everything of which you posted is evidence that you are one that has truly searched the Bible and realizes what is missing in the world today of the original Church that Jesus Christ organized when he was here upon the earth. You illustrate beautifully exactly the organization of HIS church through the representation of His body and of course He is at the Head of it.

We as members of the LDS Church also believe this as well, and yet we DO claim to be members (of the body) of His Church with Him as the HEAD directing all things by and through his authority, for as in ancient times he has called living prophets today to organize and administer his gospel. We are not protestant or baptist or catholic or reformers of any kind, etc...

We believe that there was apostasy wherein the priesthood authority and keys that Christ ordained to his original twelve were lost or rejected, therefore the need for a complete restoration.

You mentioned KEYS. Keys are authority and power to administer holy ordinances in His name for the salvation of mankind. You are right about keys... keys are for the saving and progressing of His people and they have been restored also, many of them!

When Jesus Christ said that he would build his church upon the rock, we firmly testify that He was speaking of Himself, meaning the rock of revelation! Which comes to those who submit to the Baptism of water and also of fire which is receiving of the Holy Ghost. These are the laws required for entrance into His Kingdom, and must be done by those having proper authority. Not of man, but of Him, who is the HEAD.

David, you are not offensive to any person here that is a member of the LDS church I am sure, even if you do not recognize the LDS Church as what we believe it to be.

But I would ask you a few questions... if Christ set His Church up once and it is not in existence as you can identify it was in the past, why would he not do so again when he felt the time was right and if not, why would you think he would not or could not?

Also, If he has been willing in times past to lead His people, be it in the Old Testament, or in setting up His Church and giving keys of authority and priesthood to His twelve apostles, who all of these were mere "men", why are you so opposed to this today?

In the world we live today, do we not need his voice and gifts and power more than ever?

I hope you don't mind my asking, as I am fascinated with so many of your conclusions below and am wondering if you attend any particular congregation that shares your same beliefs?
rtc

"but I think you need to study what Paul talks about concerning what God's church is. It is His body. And becoming a member of that body is confession of faith. Any organization of men that claims that they are the only true church on the planet is false. The true church is Christ's body. Not a building. Jesus said that upon this rock I will build my church. Sorry, he wasn't talking about Peter (Cephas or Petra in Greek means 'little rock'" That rock is Jesus. The little rock is Peter who Jesus sends out to spread the gospel. Also, historically, the catholic church did not exist until the reign of Constantine in the 3rd century. Until then there were no popes or bishops or whatever. The Christians were persecuted for their beliefs until Constantine came around. They were the true Christians that were martyred for their beliefs and they belonged to the body of Christ, the True of God. If you look historically, the early Christians didn't have popes or even a building. Most congregated in their homes and traveled around spreading the gospel. You quoted Matt 5:14 that His church would be the light of the world. Cross reference that with the book of James and you will see that God meant that His people, not a church organized by men, would be that light. Also, when you say the gates of Hades will not prevail against it, you might want to consider that to mean God's people. God's people won't go to hell right? So the gates of hades will not prevail against it. Also, look at revelation where Jesus says He hold the keys to Hades. Jesus holds the keys to hades, not the catholic church."

LDS folks,

Sorry but you have it wrong. You cannot "RETURN" to the Father. You can go there after this life though. Sorry, you were never there before your birth. 1 Cor 15:46. I pointed this out earlier and yes it has to do with resurrection. But the point is that we start in the natural (earthly body) and end in the (spiritual) body. Pre-existence is false teaching. So is thinking that your works can save you. So is God the Father being a man first that progressed to godhood and now lives on a planet called Kolob. There is nothing Christian about these claims. Some people call you a cult. I think I'll pass on that judgement. But you are a different religion than Christianity. I hope that one day you can find the true God of the Bible. Also, I hope that one day you will realize that Jesus died for our sins so that by faith alone we can be saved. Our works do not save us. I pointed out how works are important, but they do not save us.(Luke 18:13-14; John 3:16; Rom. 4:5; Eph. 2:8-9; Titus 3:5). I saw many LDS jump at the chance to say, thanks we believe that too. But you believe it in a different way. I know my faith alone in Jesus has saved (see 'has saved') me. It's not something I work towards. If you see how all the apostles described salvation, they described it as already being saved upon acceptance of Christ. Mormons decscribe it as you will be saved in the future. So this is an obvious intention that you assume that you have to work to recieve salvation. Actually, I should say godhood, which is completely anti-biblical. Saying that you have to do works is saying that Christ's work wasn't enough for us and basically denies the importance of His death for us. I would love to talk to you all who have faith in the LDS system. I think we need to do some Bible study together. But first I know what your gonna say if I prove your beliefs are anti-biblical.

"The Bible isn't reliable"
"The catholic church changed it".
"I prayed about it and the Spirit told me it was true".

Am I correct. Are these gonna be the excuses? I don't want to prove YOU wrong. I want to prove the Bible right, not for my sake, but for yours. But if you have faith in the Bible and claim that it is not reliable, then your faith is without reason. Please let's talk.

God bless

In the Book of Mormon several examples show prophets preaching so effectively that the people listening "had no more desire to do evil." Benjamin preaching in Mosiah 5 and Ammon in Alma 19 are two such examples.

What does that mean? Were these people suddenly perfected? Was this a temporary or a lasting thing?

I actually experience this often. Sometimes it's a movie; sometimes the scriptures and sometimes just a talk in Church or in a conference with Church speakers. Someone will say something and I'll feel some kind of spiritual (or emotional, or intellectual, or whatever) confirmation that what they're saying is something I need to act on.

At that moment I feel perfect--like I couldn't possibly ever do something to harm someone else or myself again. Unfortunately, the duration of both my feeling and my resolve varies, but if I were to stare death in the face at the moments I feel like that I would be unafraid.

But what if I were to stare death in the face two weeks later just after backbiting, or telling a lie, or even committing adultery. It would be a different story.

So is the gateway to "heaven" about the timing of one's death? Or is it instead about some verbal or internal acknowledgement of a belief system, without regard to the works required by those who support that credo

The answer, at least for me, is in the LDS belief that an individual continues to progress after this life ends. Heaven might not be an end-point, but rather a phase--just as our life on earth is a phase. We continue to progress after this life. So a "deathbed repentance" will be exposed for what it truly is in the next life as an individual continues to try to improve himself.

Jihadist,

But it is all about the topic. If the Muslims via their/your book of death and destruction were successful in ramming their/your "myth-based" religion down our throats, there would be no theology topics to discuss.

What are you promoting these days, Muslim conquest or global freedom of religion? Must be the former based on your normal "wishy-wash".

Neal,

In all fairness to Brother Otterson, it would be nearly a full-time job to keep up with all of the comments here and to respond when necessary. I don't think this was part of the job description....

In my opinion, it is great that he is able to periodically post anything here. I, too, wish him a speedy recovery....

Bro. Otterson,

Thanks for your posts. I too hope you will recover from your injuries quickly. Might I also suggest that if you can't find the time to respond to posts here that you (or the Church) should find those who can? It makes no sense to me to start a thread like this and have no official representation from the Church. Unless having responses from non-credentialed people like me is what you want.

As for being saved by simply professing faith - i think Jesus made it pretty clear that is simply not enough(pardon me for not taking the time to look up book and verse)

"Not everone who saith unto me "Lord! Lord! shall enter into the kingdom of heaven, but he that DOETH the will of my Father, which is in heaven"

"If ye love me, KEEP my commandments"

"Master, what shall I do to inherit Eternal Life?"...

Christ's telling response was not "just believe in me", it was instead - "you know the commandments"

and there are many others.

Neal

I had been thinking much along the same lines of RTC's the last post, but she captured the ideas much better than I would have- thanks, RTC, for you comments.

In addition, I disagree with some that have depicted the LDS as believing that we can earn our way to heaven completely by our own merits. Nothing could be further from the truth. It is abundantly clear that we can only return to God's presence by relying wholly on the merits of Christ.

Regarding works, as RTC mentioned, Christ invites us to follow him, and although we cannot obtain perfection in this life, certainly there is an expectation that we do our best to keep His commandments. Christ was perfect, but he was baptized, not for forgiveness of sins, but to show us the way. He lived His life in service to others and asks us to do the same. How can we follow Christ without trying to do as He did (works)? Of course we still have to rely on Him for what we cannot yet do ourselves.

David -

Your last two post... this is exactly how I feel about grace and works as well. I also believe that this is exactly how it should be interpreted when one seeks to know the truth by the spirit. I can feel that you are an honest seeker of truth David.

Works truly spring from the fountain of faith in Christ... a natural spring that "should" flow freely without compulsion. But to ignore this as an expectation that one does need to develop would be wrong as well in my opinion.

At least for me, I know that it would be much easier to allow myself to feel that I could just sit back and be "me" and that is good enough for God, because I know he loves me absolutely and unconditionally. Can I do that? Yes. Do I know he will still loves me and save me? Yes.

But still there is that "still small voice" that beckons me to be more than "me" IF I call myself a disciple of Christ. Disciple is to be disciplined, and in this case, to his cause. So we are to be that "light" of the world as he was and be him to the best of our ability.

If ye love me, keep my commandments. (Is this saying, prove it, cuz he sure did?)

As I have love you, love one another. (Is this a commandment or a nice comment? Expected?)

And this is all about doing and becoming. (Work? Change? Who ME?)

Like I said before, we best get on, because there is more to life than the honeymoon, if we are to call ourselves disciples of Christ...

The symbol of which, should be how we worship him made manifested then, in how we serve one another.

The question could be,

Can they see His image in our countenance? Frankly, that is a heavy burden to bear, isn't it? But, maybe that IS the "nail".

Anyway, thanks, because I really loved your comments:-)
rtc

Whoooaaaaa........

Mr. Otterson,

My apologies re Concerned the Christian Now Liberated cluttering up this thread with his concerns on me, Islam and Muslims that has nothing to do with your essay or the LDS.

Concerned, I saw Jihadist at Susan Jacoby's latest. Go get her there and leave this thread alone. Is she ignoring you?

Wonderfully said Tim. I agree with you fully. I must remind everyone that when we have the true faith that James speaks about that the works are a natural part of that faith, kind of like breathing. And remember, our works are not of our own, but Christ working through us. Mormons works for salvation, meaning they do it out of selfish ambition. Works are meant to glorify God by Him working through us. Not as a means for us to gain anything. Why would Jesus sacrifice Himself for us then?

Muslim sympathizers,

Eliminating the militaristic passages from the book of death would go a long way in "peace-a-fying" the current young Islamic terrorists who are "brain washed" with the current koran.

Eliminating the anti-female passages in the koran would make Muslim women human.

Support of global freedom of religion by the many Muslim sects would set the Arab world ablaze in religious education and fervor.

Otterson says that a "Mere declaration of belief is not enough to merit salvation. There also has to be action." Anytime salvation is conditional on action the question arises as to what action and how much action. Are our actions good enough or do we fall short because of frequency or because of magnitude? The whole point of God's free gift of salvation through belief in Christ as the Son of God was to free mankind from such a system. You do not need works to be saved. As an example, it is generally accepted by most Christians that a person can be saved on their death bed after a life of zero good works and having no chance to preform any good works because of their health. Where is the action/good works in this case? There are none. Christ said that the first shall be last and the last shall be first. He said that those who worked in the vineyard for a full day are paid the same as those who worked a half day. Those, like Otterson, who will have worked a full day may complain but it won't do any good. All that is required to receive God's most precious gift is to profess and believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Through belief and faith in Christ salvation is for all mankind regardless of sins or works or any other conditions some may want to create.

Sorry Henry. I thought you really thought I was wearing my yamaka right now. I get it now. I'm just a humorless blub, sorry.

I know you do not believe in God, but I must point out one thing you said concerning LDS.

The Mormons give themselves an OUT for every contingency in their articles of faith by saying "we believe the Bible to be the word of God, AS LONG AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY."

I have been saying the same thing over and over again to mormons. Here's a clear example of "check in your mind at the door. We'll do the thinking for you." Quite dangerous.

David
the "Jewish thing" was a joke. Sorry for being unclear.

Remember King David in the Bible? Wrote the Psalms? he was Jewish. Star of David and all that.

peace

Henry the JUBU

Anon

I don't presume that you were addressing your entire post on the Catholic Church to me, but...

I believe that all churches lilke the Catholics, Mormons, and Muslims who base their belief system on a supernatural, fantastical being are at best metaphorical mythologies, and the few are consistently at their best.

IF one believes that Jesus
a. was REALLY the only begotten son of God
and b. that he REALLY said the things written in the gospels 40-70 years after his death

I can see how your arguments make sense.

I don't believe point a, and there is no evidence to make us rely on point b.

The Mormons DO have a problem with the quote "the gates of Hell shall not prevail against it" IF one believes the Bible's every word and Christ's divinity.

The Mormons give themselves an OUT for every contingency in their articles of faith by saying "we believe the Bible to be the word of God, AS LONG AS IT IS TRANSLATED CORRECTLY."

they can always claim that phrase was mistranslated. Nice system.

Oh one more thing. What's the difference between paradise and heaven?

Couple things I want to clear up. Why would anyone assume I'm Jewish? I'm actually mexican, but whatever, go ahead and assume all you want.

The reason I don't say I'm neither catholic or protestant is because I think they define where you stand in terms of Biblical understanding. I have studied the Bible for myself and think the major issue between catholic and protestand theology stands as the works and faith issue. It all comes down to Paul's testimony and James' testimony. Pauls is faith alone. James says you need works. Seems contradicting but it isn't. I see catholics lean towards works more instead of faith for salvation. I see protestants lean towards faith more and do no works. Then I read Paul and James description and they go together quite well. Their talking about two differnt works. Paul is describing that faith alone can save you, not works. But what kind of works. Traditional works. Ex: Circumsicion, baptism, etc. These works are not requirements for salvation. It is by faith alone that we are saved. But James says we must work. Even satan believes Jesus died on the cross and rose again, so how does our faith differ from satan's? By refraining from sin and showing our faith through works. Not traditional works. Paul sets it up by saying just faith and James finishes it by saying what kind of faith. I think this meets in the middle of catholic and protestant theology. And this is why I call myself Christian, not catholic, protestant, mormon or whatever.

By the way Anonymous, thanks for your description of Jesus' church, but I think you need to study what Paul talks about concerning what God's church is. It is His body. And becoming a member of that body is confession of faith. Any organization of men that claims that they are the only true church on the planet is false. The true church is Christ's body. Not a building. Jesus said that upon this rock I will build my church. Sorry, he wasn't talking about Peter (Cephas or Petra in Greek means 'little rock'" That rock is Jesus. The little rock is Peter who Jesus sends out to spread the gospel. Also, historically, the catholic church did not exist until the reign of Constantine in the 3rd century. Until then there were no popes or bishops or whatever. The Christians were persecuted for their beliefs until Constantine came around. They were the true Christians that were martyred for their beliefs and they belonged to the body of Christ, the True Chruch of God. If you look historically, the early Christians didn't have popes or even a building. Most congregated in their homes and traveled around spreading the gospel. You quoted Matt 5:14 that His church would be the light of the world. Cross reference that with the book of James and you will see that God meant that His people, not a church organized by men, would be that light. Also, when you say the gates of Hades will not prevail against it, you might want to consider that to mean God's people. God's people won't go to hell right? So the gates of hades will not prevail against it. Also, look at revelation where Jesus says He hold the keys to Hades. Jesus holds the keys to hades, not the catholic church. I know I will be getting a harsh response for this, but I expect that. I hope not to be offensive, but clearly I am trying to tell you the truth.

God bless

I found these interesting statistics:

Christianity: 2.1 billion
Islam: 1.3 billion
Secular/Nonreligious/Agnostic/Atheist: 1.1 billion
Hinduism: 900 million
Chinese traditional religion: 394 million
Buddhism: 376 million
primal-indigenous: 300 million
African Traditional & Diasporic: 100 million
Sikhism: 23 million
Juche: 19 million
Spiritism: 15 million
Judaism: 14 million
Baha'i: 7 million
Jainism: 4.2 million
Shinto: 4 million
Cao Dai: 4 million
Zoroastrianism: 2.6 million
Tenrikyo: 2 million
Neo-Paganism: 1 million
Unitarian-Universalism: 800 thousand
Rastafarianism: 600 thousand
Scientology: 500 thousand

This is the website: http://www.adherents.com/Religions_By_Adherents.html#Spiritism

Henry James, it's called the Universal Church.

Jesus said his Church would be "the light of the world." He then noted that "a city set on a hill cannot be hid" (Matt. 5:14). This means his Church is a visible organization. It must have characteristics that clearly identify it and that distinguish it from other churches. Jesus promised, "I will build my Church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it" (Matt. 16:18). This means that his Church will never be destroyed and will never fall away from him. His Church will survive until his return.

Among the Christian churches, only the Catholic Church has existed since the time of Jesus. Every other Christian church is an offshoot of the Catholic Church. The Eastern Orthodox churches broke away from unity with the pope in 1054. The Protestant churches were established during the Reformation, which began in 1517. (Most of today’s Protestant churches are actually offshoots of the original Protestant offshoots.)

Only the Catholic Church existed in the tenth century, in the fifth century, and in the first century, faithfully teaching the doctrines given by Christ to the apostles, omitting nothing. The line of popes can be traced back, in unbroken succession, to Peter himself. This is unequaled by any institution in history.

Even the oldest government is new compared to the papacy, and the churches that send out door-to-door missionaries are young compared to the Catholic Church. Many of these churches began as recently as the nineteenth or twentieth centuries. Some even began during your own lifetime. None of them can claim to be the Church Jesus established.

The Catholic Church has existed for nearly 2,000 years, despite constant opposition from the world. This is testimony to the Church’s divine origin. It must be more than a merely human organization, especially considering that its human members— even some of its leaders—have been unwise, corrupt, or prone to heresy.

Any merely human organization with such members would have collapsed early on. The Catholic Church is today the most vigorous church in the world (and the largest, with a billion members: one sixth of the human race), and that is testimony not to the cleverness of the Church’s leaders, but to the protection of the Holy Spirit.

sorry, meant to say: ..is something you can not change overnight....

Mark

Thanks for your entirely speculative distinction between Heaven and Paradise.

What kind of week have you been smoking to know all this so definitively?

It is of course absurd to think that any human can have any kind of knowledge of these matters that is other than fantastical, and reading your little disquisition made the absurdity of the exercise about as dramatic as I have seen. I thank you for that.

Henry

Concerned,

Maybe Jihadist and other moderate Muslims will do so in their own sweet time.

However, I truly do not believe that would solve the extremist problem. If people want to live in the middle ages, or want to be evil, they'll do it with or without holy scripture.

Look at some of our very own Christian sects in this country, the Jonestown disaster, the Koresh disaster, the Westboro Baptist Church, etc.

Just because some enlightened individuals say not to take the bible too literaly, does not mean you no longer have extremism.

Also, please do not forget that Islam is more than just a religion, it is also a lifestyle ingrained in people for hundreds of years. That is something you can change overnight by denouncing those sections you find objectionable.

Mark,

You might want to read what modern NT scholars have to say about the good thief. Many conclude the story was a later addition to attract more converts. There were no reporters at the crucifixion for the needed attestations.

e.g. As per Professor Crossan from his book, Who is Jesus:

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety. I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. I doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset.

And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

Concerned,

Here's my question:

If Jihadist and Muslims like her completed your steps 1 and 2, what would that do? How would that change the world and the Muslim religion?

Or do you demand this only to make yourself feel better?

David,
The thief next to Jesus was saved from hell by his fiath, but entry into heaven is another thing.
Paradise is where you go after death awaiting judgement day. While you wait in paradise, not heaven, you are exposed to the teachings of God and Jesus. If someone stands in for your baptism, you have the option to accept it or not. When Jesus returns to this earth the dead will again have the chance to Qualify for heaven. Only by your works and your faith can you achieve the right to enter gods house (heaven). It is better and carrys more weight if you do it here before you die when things are not so clear as they will be in paradise.

The Problem with David's "Christianity"

Aside from the fact that David is Jewish,

the problem, David, with defining yourself as Christian

is that there are thousands of variations of "Christian Beliefs."

My brother William the tells me that Mormon beliefs are as consistent with the Bible as the way most other Christians interpret it.

The Bible admits of an almost infinite number of interpretations. It is porbably bad to kill according to the Bible, but there are a number of siturations where God directs people to kill in his name, including Genocide.

So the concept of a "strict literal reading" of the Bible is a concept that can NOT work in practice.

It's kind of like the consitution and the Supreme Court.

Mormons think their prophet is here to clear up ambiguities, but as JD will tell you, there are still plenty of ambiguities left over even with God communicating regularly with Salt Lake City.

Gaby,

Jihadist and other "liberal" Muslims need to do two simple things. 1) condemn the militancy and anti-female passages of the koran.

2) admit that there should be freedom of religion in every country.

We have been requesting this since the beginning of the On Faith blog.

Hi David,

There are a lot of interpretations that can be taken from this. As far as I understand the after life, a disembodied spirit is not the same as a resurrected spiritual body. There is a period between death and resurrection where we do not have physical bodies. I think most Christians believe this, all except the Jehovah’s Witnesses. I could be wrong.

BTW, I understand you wanting to be defined by your Christianity first and foremost; I too would like to be defined by my Christianity first and foremost.

Best,

Jd1

Concerned,

I understand what you are trying to say and I still disagree.

There are those who are evil, extremist like people, they exist everywhere. They start out harmless, and then they become more and more violent because they gather in number.

Please, Concerned, do not shear everyone over the same comb. You take on Jihadist simply because she is Muslim, that does not make her a terrorist. Even Hitler has his moments of glory. He gave the Germans work, a sense of belonging, all the while he deceived the entire country.

I wish I could explain it better, but right now I am too tired. We'll talk again tomorrow.

Jd1,

Yeah your right, it is about the bodily resurrection. But are we resurrected in our natural bodies first? When we die and go to heaven are we in our natural bodies? You might want to re-read that. When Jesus resurrected from the dead on the third day wasn't He in a spiritual body? It says no one recognized Him. So obviously He was not in His natural, earthly born body. So, we are in our natural bodies now, which is first, then our spiritual. Spiritual is not first, like it says. By the way, I'm not protestant. I'm a Christian.

David,

After looking at the scripture you quoted I realized it is actually unambiguously *not* making reference to the pre-mortal. Nor is it making reference to non-corporal spirits. It is speaking of the resurrection.

First natural, that is the natural body, second Spiritual, that is a spiritual body or a glorified, uncorrupted body.

Here is the context:

"So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a *natural body*; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a *spiritual body.*
45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual." (1 Corinthians 15:42-46)

In all fairness, as a protestant you have no reason to believe in a pre-mortal existence. There are no unambiguous references to it in the Bible. I do not think you can say for sure that there is not a pre-mortal existence based on Biblical data. I believe I lived with God before I was born, because of my faith that God has revealed this truth to His modern Prophets.

All the best my freind,

Jd1

David,

I do not think it is obvious, I think it is ambiguous. For example, the verse you quote could mean a number of things, e.g., when God created man, he created the body first and breathed into him his spirit according to Genesis.

Mormons would say it was a pre-mortally existent spirit, Christians would say a recently created spirit, niether have unambiguous Biblical data to back it up.

Mormons look at various Biblical verses as evidence of pre-mortal existence. One is the following:

"Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations" (Jeramiah 1:5).

Christians will say it refers to God's foreknowledge, I think the most straightforward exegesis is possible with a conception of pre-mortal existence, but ultimately it is ambiguous.

Best,

Jd1

Henry,

Good point. The difference in this case is what is right according to the Bible. Mormons base their faith on the Bible like I do. However, they teach false doctrines. Ex: pre-existence. Obviousy the Bible says otherwise. So, does that mean I can come along and say murder is ok too. I know the Bible says not to murder, but screw it, let's make it part of our faith anyway. Hey Joe and Brigham, grab a knife!! Let's stab us some people in the name of God!!

David
I don't think you are being offensive. Persistent and painstaking, both good qualities.

As i see it, the possibilities are

1. You are Right and the Mormons are wrong
2. The Mormons are Right and you are wrong.
3. You are both wrong.

You can't both be right.

This is the general problem. There are 4,000 religions that hold contradictory beliefs.

Either 3,999 are wrong and ONE is right
or they are all wrong.

I vote for : all wrong.

and we can't prove it either way. But the odds are in my favor.

by at least 3,999 to one.

best
Henry

RTC,

Concerning pre-existence. What does the Bible say?

1 Corinthians 15:46

46The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual.

Go ahead and read that in the KJV as well since I know you do not accept any other translations. It says the same thing. I also encourage you to read the whole context so you know I'm not taking this verse out of context but instead know that it is specifically telling us humans that we never pre-existed. This is false doctrine and this is why I do not listen to LDS. I already know what your gonna say. "I believe Jesus died on the cross for our sins and resurrected too". Yeah, but do you have the right Jesus?

This is why I am stricly Biblical in my beliefs. How can you base your beliefs on the Bible and then believe the same divine inspiration inspired another doctrine (BOM) that contradicts itself? Sorry RTC, we differ in our faiths even though we use the same basis for our beliefs, the Bible.

So, if I know your beliefs contradict Biblical scripture, I know not to take heed to your words of description of the afterlife, or heaven. You think you will become a god. Sorry, the Bible says otherwise.

I hope I do not come off as offensive. I truly believe LDS is false teaching.

God bless

Gaby,

I will expand my comment:

Koranic" Muslims, other religious fanatics, Communists, Nazis, Aryan Nationalists, and "KKKers" would like us to be less than human.

Concerned,

"Freedom of religion is a basic human right, right up there with freedom of the press, vote, and to live and die in peace."

Those are our human rights, there are many countries which do not have these same basic rights. By far, not all of them are Muslim!

Take the former USSR, Cuba, Zimbabwe, etc. They aren't (weren't) Muslim, yet they did not have any of those rights either. Any time you have extremists rule, you will find those rights taken away.

Concerned:

So you are Crossanized, but that doesn't make the Catholic Church Crossanized.

My youngest brother married a fervent Catholic, and she isn't Crossanized. She does believe in angels and saints, etc. She is already indoctrinating my beautiful little niece (1 1/2 years old) with all this hocus pocus and my idiot brother lets her. I could scream! She also tells me and she KNOWS that when we die we will see all of our dearly departed again.

That, my Dear, is a very scary thought. What if I don't want to see them.

David and Henry -

The noble JD1 eloquently confirms my case before you. Therefore, I thank him and add my second witness to his words here to all he has said...

Again, If ye are not one, ye are not mine. But, are we not still individuals in physical bodies? Of course we are. Just as God the Father and His Son Jesus Christ, and yet they be ONE in their hearts being knit together in love of the same purpose for UNITY.

I believe that one of the most profound revelations that is had in the LDS teachings is knowledge pertaining to the question:

"Where did I come from"?

I bring this up, because I find it interesting that in many faiths there is a belief in an afterlife, at least for the spirit, whether they believe in a literal resurrection of the body or not. So, it is interesting to me that the question of the life of the spirit is not brought up and pondered more deeply upon?

I can easily understand for some how accepting that the body might be only earthly perhaps and yet the spirit goes on... this may give some comfort perhaps?

I have even done a little experiment with my students... I have them close their eyes and imagine a time when they DID NOT EXIST... or a time when they will NOT exist? I actually have them sit for a while in total silence and allow them to quiet down and become serious regarding this exercise. It is my belief, that this is impossible to do... because this is a completely false state of being to our eternal existence.

Of course, this is my point, and very effective I might add. I imagine some of you may try this, and you shall see.

Well, besides learning that we are eternal, we believe that each of us before our physical birth here, lived with our Heavenly Father in a defferent sphere for quite a length of time.

And like any loving parent, He desired that we should progress and become like him when we are fully developed. That plan and where we are now, on earth, is that we have a body and are learning lessons by experience, that could eventually perfect us to some day in the eternities have the potential for becoming like him.

Therefore, it is their work and their glory that they desire the same ONENESS of heart, mind and soul of every one of their creation, that in perfection all become ONE, as they are ONE.

And They, Each in perfect balance will bring, through the mercy and grace of the atonement, then satisfy the demands of justice will enable those willing to be one with Them in perfect UNITY.

Moses 1:39

"This is my work and my work to bring to pass the immortaliity and eternal life of man"

I believe that not only did Jesus Christ come into the world to atone for us and accomplish HIS WORK, but I believe that he also was here to set the perfect example for US in HOW we NEEDED to FOLLOW him. NOT just that we SHOULD be like him, but that we MUST be like him, in ORDER to BE HIM.

He clearly taught in John 16 this order...

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man ccometh unto the Father, but by me.

1. Way - He lived the perfect life that we should all emulate in how we treat, love and serve one another.

2. Truth & Life (balanced in harmony)- He gave us knowledge as to HOW to come unto him in ORDER as HE himself submitted to baptism (law) proclaiming that ONLY in His NAME, meaning proper AUTHORITY, then receiving the Holy Ghost...

You will note that it is then that the voice of God is heard from the heavens ACKNOWLEDGING Jesus' Divine Sonship!

We must not miss the importance of what opened the heavens here and allowed the VOICE of God the FATHER to be heard. It was LAW being properly adhered to and by HIS SON who is THE CHRIST HE SO TESTIFIED! This is Powerful witness of LAW, Which should not be ignored, but is unfortunately.

It is my belief, that IF more christians studied and familiarized themselves with the Old Covenant or Testament, they would pay more attention to law.

IF we as "christians" believe that Jehovah is also Jesus Christ of the New Testament, then we must discontinue our belief that he requires nothing of us but to say "I do".
rtc

Gaby,

Freedom of religion is a basic human right, right up there with freedom of the press, vote, and to live and die in peace. It is not imposed. It comes with being human. "Koranic" Muslims and other religious fanatics would like us to be less than human.

Gaby,

I am a "Crossanized" Catholic who as a kid was "nunned" to believe in "pretty/ugly wingie talky thingies" and the power of dead saints. Thanks to many contemporary NT exegetes, I now see the "myths of it all". To my knowledge, belief in angels (unlike Islam) is not a requirement to be Catholic.

A bit of "angelic" history:

To reiterate, it is all about the founders of the major religions and their favorite "tinker bell(s)" aka angel.

Joe Smith had his Moroni.

Mohammed had his Gabriel (this "tinkerer" got around).

Jesus and his family had Michael, Gabriel, and Satan, the latter being a modern day demon of the demented.

The Abraham-Moses myths had their Angel of Death and other "no-namers" to do their dirty work or other assorted duties.

Contemporary biblical and religious scholars have relegated these "pretty wingie talky thingies" to the myth pile. We should do the same to include deleting all references to them in our religious operating manuals. Doing this will eliminate the prophet/profit/prophecy status of these founders and put them where they belong as simple humans just like the rest of us.

Some added references to "tinker bells".

"Latter-day Saints also believe that Michael the Archangel was Adam (the first man) when he was mortal, and Gabriel lived on the earth as Noah."

Apparently hallucinations did not stop with Joe Smith.

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/07049c.htm
"This belief in guardian angels can be traced throughout all antiquity; pagans, like Menander and Plutarch (cf. Euseb., "Praep. Evang.", xii), and Neo-Platonists, like Plotinus, held it. It was also the belief of the Babylonians and Assyrians, as their monuments testify, for a figure of a guardian angel now in the British Museum once decorated an Assyrian palace, and might well serve for a modern representation; while Nabopolassar, father of Nebuchadnezzar the Great, says: "He (Marduk) sent a tutelary deity (cherub) of grace to go at my side; in everything that I did, he made my work to succeed."

Catholic monks and Dark Age theologians also did their share of hallucinating:

"TUBUAS-A member of the group of angels who were removed from the ranks of officially recognized celestial hierarchy in 745 by a council in Rome under Pope Zachary. He was joined by Uriel, Adimus, Sabaoth, Simiel, and Raguel."

And tinker bells go way, way back:

"In Zoroastrianism there are different angel like creatures. For example each person has a guardian angel caled Fravashi. They patronize human being and other creatures and also manifest god’s energy. Also, the Amesha Spentas have often been regarded as angels, but they don't convey messages, but are rather emanations of Ahura Mazda ("Wise Lord", God); they appear in an abstract fashion in the religious thought of Zarathustra and then later (during the Achaemenid period of Zoroastrianism) became personalized, associated with an aspect of the divine creation (fire, plants, water...)."

"The beginnings of the biblical belief in angels must be sought in very early folklore. The gods of the Hittites and Canaanites had their supernatural messengers, and parallels to the Old Testament stories of angels are found in Near Eastern literature. "

"The 'Magic Papyri' contain many spells to secure just such help and protection of angels. From magic traditions arose the concept of the guardian angel. "

For added information see the review at:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel

Thank you James for your response,

As I am sure you are aware, Greek thought has two strands, the Hellenic and the later Hellenistic. You are drawing parallels between the Hellenic religion and LDS belief. I think LDS beliefs (and Ancient Christianity) is more similar to Pre-Josiah Israelite beliefs than Hellenic Paganism (See my earlier post).

Post-creedal Christianity bares a stronger resemblance to later Hellenistic Greek thought than LDS beliefs. LDS beliefs actually stand in rebellion to Hellenistic Platonic theology which de-anthropomorphized the God of the Hebrews (See the Book “The God of the Philosophers") and makes God so unlike us, that one wonders why he takes any interest in us at all.

Best,

Jd1

Hello JD, thanks for the reply

When I say the Mormon God theology is like the Greek, I don't mean that as a criticism.

i do think the Mormon theology is just as valid/reasonable as any of the others, and in certain ways more so, as I know you do.

For instance, one thing the Bible clearly says, if you believe it, is that God created us in HIS image. So the mormon idea that God has a body does make more sense to me in manyh ways than that he doesn't. Of course, I grew up with that idea.

And the idea that humans can become like God, esp if God is NOT all-powerful, just PRETTY powerful, makes sense to me as well. Though of course i can't prove that it is true.

I imagine that like Zeus, the current God will continue to be First among equals when all you men become Gods. It is true we won't have to put up with women Gods, right? Whew. My wife is enough.

AND, IF my brother William accepts the Gospel and becomes a God, I guarantee he will quarrel with you and the other Gods. I know. I grew up with him.

So again, Mormon similarity to Greek myth is a Good Thing as far as I am concerned.

best
Henry

Concerned,

As a Catholic, you shouldn'd be the one talking about "pretty wingie talking thingies". The Catholic Church has more thingies than any other religion I know. Maybe you should visit Europe and check out the Catholic churches there. Unbelievably many thingies, including some dead "saints" you can view.

As for a global First Amendment, who are we to impose our political system on the rest of the world. Don't misunderstand, I think it would be great if other countries adopted some of our democratic and constitutional order, but never ever by force.

Unified Divine Counsels and Biblical Peoples (not pagans):

Joseph Smith claimed to be restoring, through revelation, the ancient religion of Biblical peoples. Here is an observation by a current graduate student (David Bokovoy) of the Hebrew Bible:

During the April conference of the Church in 1844, Joseph Smith testified regarding the importance of the heavenly council organized before the creation of the earth. Concerning “the beginning,” Joseph declared that “the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.” Joseph Smith, Teachings 349.

Though Joseph’s views concerning a divine council of deities shocked many contemporary 19th century Christians, today, biblical scholars recognize that the council of Gods provides “a fundamental symbol for the Old Testament understanding of how the government of human society by the divine world is carried out”; Patrick D. Miller, “Cosmology and World Order in the Old Testament,” Israelite Religion and Biblical Theology (Sheffield: Sheffield Academic Press, 2000), 432.

In an important article published in 1975, biblical scholar N.L.A. Tidwell provided a definition of the biblical council genre as

“a narrative of events in the heavenly council on an occasion when the council is gathered to make some fateful decision concerning the affairs of men. In fact, wherever in the OT the activities of the council are described, or the deliberations of the council may by thought to be alluded to, some decision of great moment is always involved.” “Wa’omar (Zech. 3:5) and the Genre of Zechariah’s Fourth Vision,” Journal of Biblical Literature, 94 (1975): 352.

Furthermore:

"In the ancient Near East, stories of the divine council typically begin with a crisis in which the head God calls together the gods of the council to resolve the dilemma. During the council, a series of proposals are offered. Finally, a “savior” steps forward, offering his services to the council. This savior then receives a commission to perform his redemptive role (this summary is based upon the pattern identified by Simon Parker, “Council,” in Dictionary of Deities and Demons in the Bible, 206)."

Compare this to the following revelations of Joseph Smith concerning a pre-mortal counsel:

"And the Lord said: Whom shall I send? And one answered like unto the Son of Man: Here am I, send me."

"But, behold, my Beloved Son, which was my Beloved and Chosen from the beginning, said unto me—Father, thy will be done, and the glory be thine forever."

Best,

Jd1

RTC,

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with you. First off I've been on the mormon thread for awhile. I've realized the big difference between mormonism and Biblical Christianity. I base my beliefs on the Bible solely, and you base them on the Bible and the BOM. I hope you don't find this offensive, but we worship two different Gods. Therefore your explanation to me about the afterlife cannot be taken to heart on a Biblical level. You also believe you will be a god one day too. This is way off for what the Bible says. So, sorry if I seem offensive, but I do not agree with the LDS teachings. I find too many contradictions in the BOM that not only contradict themselves, but then contradict the Bible as well. Sorry.

God bless

Helloooo Henry James.

You say:

"1. There will be MANY GODS. We (well, not ME) can become Gods if we follow the path of Eternal Progression."

The idea that the saved condition of humanity will entail our inheriting the divine nature of the Father and the Son is implied in Jesus' Statement concerning his disciples:

"And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one"
(John 17:22)

If Jesus' oneness with the Father makes Him divine, then our oneness with the Father and the Son will make us Divine. This Divinity can only be achieved if we are in perfect unity with them. We must be as unified with them as they are with each other.

Therefore, your statement "The Gods (will) quarrel among themselves" is not Mormon doctrine.

"The Gods ARE NOT ALL POWERFUL. Even the current, single (?) God is not All powerful."

This is not inconsistent with the Hebrew tradition and what many Christians believe when pressed, that is, God must work through natural laws. I remember listening to one Jewish scholar who noted this idea laced throughout the Old Testament.

"Goodbye Monotheism"

Christians consider themselves monotheists as do Latter Day Saints. Muslims and Jews do not consider Christians monotheists because of the three persons of the trinity. Christians argue that the absolute unity of the trinity in will and substance makes them monotheists. Mormons argue the absolute unity of the Father and the Son and all those who become one with them, makes them monotheists.

Scientists wonder where to pinpoint the beginning or end of a single organism. A single cell is an organism, but so is the unity of cells in a multicellular organism. A bee is an organism, but also the entire hive could easily be conceived of as a single organism. So it is with Deity.

Best,

Jd1

Gaby,

Unfortunately, Jihadist's SOP is the koran. Until it is cleansed of its militaristic agenda and its anti-female passages, I cannot trust anyone of the Muslim faith. We trusted them on 9/11. Never again.

But again for one that believes in "pretty wingie talking thingies" and the "demons of the demented" (as Muslims are required to) maybe you do believe without attestations in all these Jihadists/Julias, insprired books and "talkers with god"???? By the First Amendment that is your right. It is obvious, however, that Jihadist does not believe in a global First Amendment and that should be a major concern to you.

Concerned, you wrote:

"Gaby,

For all you and I know, Jihadist could be working as a propaganist for the rich Arab who supports Esposito. Have you talked to Jihadist in person or even on the phone?? "She" might even be a "he" working for the Wahhabis."

Unlike you, I don't see a conspiracy around every corner. If Jidahist says her given name is Julia, why should I disbelieve her?

My real name is Gaby (short for Gabriele), I don't need to hide behind pseudonyms. I believe in the inherent goodness of people and I take them at face value unless proven otherwise.

Whatever I write in this blogs are my true feelings. I don't disguise myself because if I did, these discussions would be absolutely useless.

Everyone has a right to believe as they wish, but everyone also has a right to disagree with other peoples' faiths. This is America! There is no need to malign others' religions, just because you disagree. Believe it or not, one can have a civil discussion and actually learn a thing or two, even if one doesn't subscribe to the whole concept of what they are saying.

So again, I am asking you for a little more civility when dealing with Jihadist or other Muslims. It's really not that hard to be nice and it might actually make you feel better about yourself.

Praise IT and the light and love that is IT. Only one holy cosmic heartbeat, no prophets, no son, only IT. IT is in us and all around us!

Mormon Gods Becoming Greek Gods

The Mormon theology of Gods is bringing us back to Greek Mythology. In these respects.

1. There will be MANY GODS. We (well, not ME) can become Gods if we follow the path of Eternal Progression.

Unless WE are a Woman of course. The Greeks had Demeter and Artemis. We WILL NOT have Hillary and Condoleeza.

2. The Gods ARE NOT ALL POWERFUL. Even the current, single (?) God is not All powerful. and when my brother William becomes a God, I KNOW he won't be all powerful.

3. The Gods (will) quarrel among themselves. If my Brother William becomes a god, i just know he will argue with the others.

Goodbye Monotheism. Freud will rejoice (wonder if HE is a God, having killed Jesus).

David,

The problem is that there were no "reporters" at the crucifixion. There were many "remembrances", four different versions that were accepted but many more that could have been. This situation vitiates all the versions and is the reason that NT exegetes have deleted the embellishments (about 70%) of the NT.

One of the many conclusions about what might have happened:

As noted by R.B. Stewart in his introduction to the recent book, The Resurrection of Jesus, Crossan and Wright in Dialogue,

"Reimarus (1774-1777) posits that Jesus became sidetracked by embracing a political position, sought to force God's hand and that he died alone deserted by his disciples. What began as a call for repentance ended up as a misguided attempt to usher in the earthly political kingdom of God. After Jesus' failure and death, his disciples stole his body and declared his resurrection in order to maintain their financial security and ensure themselves some standing."

David -

Correction:

Again, not to say that repentance at the 11th hours is better than not repenting at all,

should read....

Again, to say that repentance at the 11th hour is better than not repenting at all, most would agree, but it will not be an instant pass...

sorry about that, it is getting late and I am getting loopy:-)

David -

I am glad you brought that up. I wish I had more time, but this bit of commentary should help to explain the LDS position on that particular question, which is often asked whenever the deathbed repentance topic arises.

Again, not to say that repentance at the 11th hours is better than not repenting at all, but it will not be an instant "pass" and on you go straight to heaven, no prob. Don't you think that might be a mockery to some possibly? Maybe even God? So again, mercy cannot rob justice... a price of some type must still be paid? Some thinking time perhaps?
rtc

Elder Bernard P. Brockbank

“Today there is much controversy and contention among the doctrines and philosophies of men relative to the requirements for entrance into the kingdom of God. Many have been deceived by the teachings of men that works and obedience to God’s commandments are not essential, and some base their contention on scriptures.

For example, Paul said, ‘For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.’ (Eph. 2:8–9.)
 
“The resurrection and immortality are gifts from God, through Jesus Christ, and not from the works and efforts of mortal men.
 
“Many try to justify their claims with the statement of Jesus to the thief on the cross, when the thief said to Jesus, ‘Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom,’ and Jesus said unto him, ‘Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.’ (Luke 23:42–43.)

Jesus and the thief went to paradise. There are those who teach that paradise and heaven are one and the same place, but this is not according to the teachings of the holy scriptures.
 
“After mortal death the spirit goes to paradise and remains there until the appointed time for its resurrection into immortality and eternal life.
 
“Heaven, which is the kingdom of God, is where those who have been obedient to God’s plan of life and salvation go after judgment and the resurrection.
 
“The spirit of Jesus, after his death, went to paradise and not to the kingdom of heaven. It was not until after his resurrection that he mentioned returning to the kingdom of heaven. You will recall his words to Mary as she stood by the sepulcher weeping:

‘Touch me not, for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.’ (John 20:17.)

His spirit had been to paradise, but he had not yet ascended to his Father in heaven.” (“Entrance into the Kingdom of God,” Ensign, Jan. 1973, 44)
 

Concerned,

Yeah, and Professor Crossan was there? Nice assumption, but his testimony doesn't bode to well against those who actually witnessed this event.

I don't think Abraham Lincoln was assasinated either. I don't think he even showed up to the theatre that night. It's more likely that he was at Benihana's having some sushi. I do believe the assasination story was some cover-up for something. Some fairy tale that someone made up.

How does my testimony hold up?

I believe many contemporary exegetes have concluded that Luke 23:43 was an embellishment of the crucifixion.

As per Professor Crossan from his book, Who is Jesus:

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety. I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. I doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset.

And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

Gaby,

For all you and I know, Jihadist could be working as a propaganist for the rich Arab who supports Esposito. Have you talked to Jihadist in person or even on the phone?? "She" might even be a "he" working for the Wahhabis.

Follow the following?

“I believe the Bible is inspired.” “Why?” “Because it says so.” Would anyone let that logic pass if it came from the followers of any other book or person?

“I believe x is inspired because x says so.” Fill in the blanks:
x=Pat Robertson
x=the ayatolloah Sistani
x=David Koresh
x=the Koran
x=Jihadist
x=Gaby
x=Julia
x=Betty

But for one that believes in "pretty wingie talking thingies" and the "demons of the demented" (as Muslims are required to) maybe you do believe in all these insprired books and "talkers with god"????

RTC,

What about the thief on the cross next to Jesus then. Luke 23:43? He was saved right? He said himself that he deserved to be crucified for what he did. But Jesus told him that he would be with Him in paradise. So was it works that saved him? Or was it faith?

Henry -

IF we "were" to accept that "it" was ALL POWERFUL and did NOT answer to any other POWER..... THEN, we could probably accept your hypothesis. And, I suppose, but I do not know for sure, that this may be how many others do believe God to be?

This is NOT how I, as a member of the LDS church understand God to be, and thus, HE IS NOT THE AUTHOR of such terrible acts AS you describe them, nor the ACTIONS of individual USE of their own agency and HOW this may affect others.

BUT, he is a loving God who has prepared the WAY to HEAL ALL those who WILLINGLY CHOOSE HIM to BE THEIR GOD in the course of this loving act of his providing a way for us to progress.

Thus, He gave His Only Begotten Son, so that through him the demands of JUSTICE would be met and GRACE and MERCY could then be applied to those who would, through him, come unto the Father.

But qualify they must, by keeping the law first and then following after his example....

He showed they way, which was a perfect christian life of love and service.

If ye are not one, ye are not mine.

By their fruits ye shall know them.

Be ye not hearers of the word only, but doers also.

Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Ps. 89: 14
Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.

Phaedrus -

Now, I myself, think as you do on this subject. I am not saying however that repentance is not available for a sinner at the last hour, but not in the way that others might possibly believe...

Meaning fully, like a drive-thru, fast food, quickie meal is comparable to a....

sumptuously, lingering and decadently gorgeous feast, elegantly spread upon beautifully set banquet of tables with exqusite linens, layered in the most elegant layers, and trays, platters, crystal platters, silver platters filled with more delicious food than the eyes are abe to behold in one, two, or even three sweeps across the large room so wide is the expanse of the sumptuous feast that lay before the dream of the belly about to endulge, as this could truly and possibly take all of eternity...

If two men who were born the same day and lived the same amount of years and one made good choices, lived the laws of the land and accepted Jesus. The other man robbed, raped and was put in jail, then he got out and turned his life around a bit.

They both just so happen to get in car accidents on the same day and in the same town. Ended up in the same hospital on life support and ready to die. The priest comes to visit the man of his congregation and notices the other guy in the other bed. The guy decides to accept Jesus. He is saved now. The priest just added a new member to his roll and he is happy and so he leaves. The two men die-happily-ever-after.

Because they are both in heaven now.....

Personally, I believe we have a problem IF we feel that it can work this simply.

Alma 42:

24 For behold, justice exerciseth all his demands, and also mercy claimeth all which is her own; and thus, none but the truly penitent are saved.
25 What, do ye suppose that mercy can rob justice? I say unto you, Nay; not one whit. If so, God would cease to be God.

Now, there is a bit more to it than this, as we do believe that for some there is repentance after this life. But for those who have ignored the opportunity and been openly rebellious toward god, putting off repenting and coming unto him.... sorry.
rtc

Hello Gaby

Sorry my friend. I was having a little ironic wordplay when i used the word "Dogmatically."

Actually, like many others here, my Karma ran over my Dogma.

I *almost* meant what I wrote, however. If there IS a God, IT has lots to do with Light (in all senses) and Love. On that I am sure you agree.

Regarding Forgetting Pain:

Since we are in the realm of mysticism, let me speculate mystically.

I believe the Universe/IT "remembers" all the pain IT has suffered since that BIG PAIN, the Big Bang, on some level.

When Eliot writes,
"April is the Cruelist Month,
mixing memory and desire,"

the memory is largely of the Pain,
which makes the memory cruel.

The wisdom of the ages is the lines on the face of nature that the millenia of pain and suffering have carved into it's face.

Love to you,
Henry

"Concerned The Christian Now Liberated:

Betty and Gaby,

Do you have any attestations other than the "wishy wash words" of Jihadist aka Julia posted on the blog? For all we know, you two might be Jihadist and Julia."

Honestly now, Concerned, don't be an utter ass!

I am Gaby and Betty is Betty, we have been on this blog long enough to where you should know that.

I had many a dialogue with Jidadist. You really think I wrote to myself and then answered myself. I am not the one who belongs in a mental institution!

You are delusional! And talking about wishy washy words, what do you think you are writing.

Pretty wingy thingies.....blah, blah, blah.

You and Frank Collins are are neither liberated nor knowledgable.

You keep quoting the same old crap over and over and over.

You are so scared of anything other than what you grew up with, I am afraid to think that maybe you work for the Prez himself. Mind you, I voted for him, but I am totally disillusioned by his administration and his actions.

Henry wrote:
"Gaby

You are absolutely, positively, dogmatically correct"

Actually, Henry, not dogmatically.

Yes, IT is also responsible for tsumanies, earthquakes and such. IT would have to be. As Jacob says: " we are born from MAGMA PERCULATION"

Betty and Gaby,

Do you have any attestations other than the "wishy wash words" of Jihadist aka Julia posted on the blog? For all we know, you two might be Jihadist and Julia.

All Jihadist has to do is promote freedom of religion globally and renounce the militaristic and anti-female passages of the koran.

Brother Otterson -

I was sorry to hear of your recent accident and that it has slowed you down. I hope you will have a speedy recovery and be up and about doing those things that you find needful. Although a good rest is quite often exactly that. And quite possibly you might even become a blogger if you are down more than a little while:-)

Perhaps we shall hear from YOU more frequently... and that would be quite a treat!

Thank you for your comments on the various topics, as I cannot imagine what it must be like to have so much one could say, to so many, and yet so few words, to accomplish such a task.

A talent, I do not possess.

Kuddos to you.
rtc

Gaby

You are absolutely, positively, dogmatically correct.

"God" is Light and Love. That is IT.

You write
"We do not need to worship IT, but must protect anything and everything IT created."

If "God" is the spiritual force of Creation, as you seem to say,
"God" must also be the spiritual force of Destruction. As embodied by earthquakes, tsunamis, lions eating antelopes, infanticidee in all species, etc.

The Old Testament metaphorized this with stories of the Flood and the Plagues and Sodom and Gomorrah, the Cities on the Plain.

God is All Good/Bad, All Knowledge/Ignorance, All Love/Hate. Apparently.

As one of Shakespeare's characters said, evidently correctly
"As flies to wanton boys,
are we to the Gods.

They kill us for their sport."

Cheerfully,
Henry

I would like to add a comment on my faith. I do not belong to any religion whatsoever. I abhor dogma in any way, shape or form.

However, I do believe in God. My God is neither he nor she, I call the being IT.

IT created everything animate and inanimate. Since IT is all spirit, IT never made men by hand or created us in IT's image. IT is in us and all around us. We are part of IT. Thus we all are inherently good, but many times misled.

We do not need to worship IT, but must protect anything and everything IT created. To do otherwise would be dishonoring IT. Life can only exist in light, therefore those who dishonor IT, will not go to everlasting hell, but to complete darkness. They will live no more.

Since we are part of IT, we can never really die, our spirit will simply reunite with IT and that is what so-called heaven is all about.

I do not need prophets, preachers, or scriptures to rejoice in IT. I find it in nature, my fellow humans, and the universe.

IT is the light and the love that surrounds us.

Henry

Are you feeling OK?

You have posted 3 or 4 times here and have said nothing disparaging about that nice Mr. Otterson.

I am worried about you.

That nice Phaedrus fellow is always polite and goodhearted, but you...

CONCERNED:
totally seriously, Gaby is completely correct.

Leave Jihadist alone. She is everything Gaby says she is, and you make yourself seem not to be when you attack her.

Yes Phaedrus,

this does seem kind of a soft ball question unless one posits the kind of situation you do.

Since I have neither faith nor good works to show for myself, I must approach this topic theoretically. Or empathetically.

No religious person would be considered a GOOD religious person without BOTH, of course.

Karen says her faith leads her to good works. Regardless of which came first, both have to be there.

Of course, my position is that the concept of Heaven is BAD, counter-productive to the production of true moral sense. And I give heaven a 99.99999999% probability of not being there when Hitler died, increasing the theoreticality of the example.

It is fine with me if people have the kind of faith that increases their loving kindness towards their fellows. Often it ONLY increases their loving kindness to their own "tribe" - other Catholics, Mormons, Jews, Muslims, Yankee Fans. That kind of Faith is morally odious.

Concerned:

I really wish you would quit hammering on Jihadist!

Leave her be!

She is a very kind human being, unlike many others on these blogs, intelligent, caring, and loving!

Go take your wrath out on someone else!

I commend Mr Otterson's willingness to respond to Henry and Karen, much in the fashion of Susan Jacoby and Bishop Spong. Always nice to see that.

While most can agree on the broad middle ground inherent in most philosophical positions, it is in pushing these positions to their extremes that the underlying ideas can best be discerned.

There is little disagreement amongst thinking religious people that both faith and good works are desirable, and there are any number of Biblical/Koranic/BOM/Talmudic references attesting to such. However, when one stretches the view to the disposition of a person who experiences a death-bed "conversion," honestly felt and reported and given official sanction, yet the entire life of this individual was marked by consistent acts of cruelty to other sentient beings, what then? How a religious system decides this question is the real measure of the relative importance of faith vs. works in that religion.

Those who believe that the individual in question receives some form of heavenly reward that places him or her above those who exhibited a lifetime of good works, without having been "saved," clearly stress faith over works. Those who disagree with this, stress works over faith. A hypothetically "saved" Hitler vs. an apostate Gandhi, who goes where?

This is simplistic, yes, but for purposes of hacking away at the baroque verbal overlay that tends to conceal how faith and works are actually weighed in these various sets of dogma.

Henry James: Thank you as always for your kind response to my post. I think that this is one place where you and I can definitely agree: helping others should never be about winning brownie points, whether in the eyes of God or the eyes of men, but because it is the right thing to do.

Mr. Otterson: thank you very much for your kind response. I pray that you recover quickly from your injury.

Richard Miller: your post pretty much proves my point. As Christians, we believe that we are saved by God's grace, therefore this young college student had it right, she was saved the moment she received Jesus as her savior. And at that moment, God also came to reside in her through His Holy Spirit, who directs and guides if it is not quenched. That is why we say that faith in God transforms us, and that we are saved "unto good works", never "by good works". In my opinion, the true christian who has commited his/her life to Christ is completely liberated from fear of the after life and lives a changed life out of gratitude, obedience and love.

Please consider this way of thinking. It is incredibly liberating. Good works are a consequence of salvation, not a requisite for it. The NT very clearly and especially in Galatians tells us that there is nothing we can add to God's grace to "earn" our salvation.

Brother Otterson,

Thank for you for both of your posts. Sorry to hear about your injury, I hope you recover soon.

I too think the many differences in the faith and works debate come down to semantics. I think that the common phrase you hear “Saved by Works” is not only misleading but incorrect. The work does not save any more than belief can save us. The act of belief or any other work is worth nothing, only in so much as it is a channel to the grace of Christ. I believe that as I exercise my faith by working in love (Galations 5:6), I cooperate with God’s grace, which I trust will slowly but surely change me into His likeness.

The synergistic relationship between our decision to follow Christ and His grace working in us, will enable us to reach heaven, not as an external abode, but an thoroughly internal change in our natures. The real paradise of God is the internal fusion of our minds with Christ’s, and our wills with the will of the Father. I am grateful to God for the simple taste of this end when he lets me feel of His spirit.

Best,

Jd1

Malaysia likes to say its a multireligious country. It is not. Is Islam so fragile that it cannot let one woman go? Or are they sending a message to the masses?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6cGrvbEhCc

Jihadist aka Julia,

Any comments to this news story?

"The Malaysian federal court has rejected professed Catholic Lina Joy's appeal to change her stated religion from 'Muslim' to 'Christian' on her identity card. If she still persists to change her religion, she will need to apply for apostasy with the Syariah court, which the Syariah law forbids."

"In practice, sharia courts do not allow Muslims to formally renounce Islam, preferring to send apostates to counseling and, ultimately, fining or jailing them if they do not desist.

They often end up in legal limbo, unable to register their new religious affiliations or legally marry non-Muslims. Many keep silent about their choice or emigrate."

More background on the topic.

Some faith vs. good works history, as per my good friend, a Catholic theology professor at a large Catholic university: It is all about Purgatory -

"Protestants because of Luther's "sola Scriptura" do not accept Purgatory as a valid doctrine of Christianity. Luther argued that "Purgatory"
is not explicitly found in the Bible. Many scholars believe that he rejected the notion because of its ties to the selling of writs of indulgence. People viewed indulgences as a means for lessening the time of temporal punishment
in purgatory. Protestants also argue that Purgatory negates the satisfaction of sin by Jesus' death. God's grace through the merits of Christ is the only thing that saves. Religious services / prayers by loved ones and the
good works of repentance for deceased persons can do nothing to help a person earn heaven. The rejection of purgatory, is part of a bigger tendency in Protestantism toward individual relationship with God and away from a
sense of participation in a bigger "communion" of the faithful.

"The Roman Catholic Church teaches that after death, those guilty of sins that are not serious (venial rather than mortal) and of mortal sins for
which persons have repented, must spend time being purified through "temporal punishment" or are given the opportunity to repent. The justice
of God requires some punishment for the sins we have committed, due to the harm they have caused. The Biblical basis for this teaching is 1 Cor 3:15. "If any person's work is burned up, he/she will suffer loss, though the person will be saved, but only as through fire." Purgatory is envisioned to be a purification, as gold is purified "as through fire," so is the soul of
the person who has committed sin. 2 Maccabees 12: 38-46 is also associated with belief in purgatory, because it refers to praying for those who have died.

Some scholars trace purgatory as a teaching to the practice of third century Christians of praying for the dead. In the late 12th century
speculation emerged that depicted purgatory as a separate "place" or state of being existing somewhere between heaven and hell. At the Second Council of Lyons (1274) teaching about purgatory became an official doctrine of the Catholic Church. It became fixed in the Catholic imagination due to Dante's Divine Comedy. During the Middle Ages (time of Crusades and Plagues)
Purgatory became an important element in Christian ascetical practices. Through such practices it was believed that the punishment due to sin could be paid here or in purgatory. In the Middle Ages speculation about Purgatory
heightened and the practice of offering masses for deceased loved ones began along with the system of indulgences. Offering prayers and Masses for the dead was seen as a way to be spiritually connected (in communion) with loved
ones.

For Catholics the doctrine of Purgatory is closely connected with belief in the Communion of Saints. This doctrine expresses the conviction that there is a communion between life after death (Saints in heaven and people making reparation for their sins in purgatory) and earthly life. Emphasis on the community of all persons living and dead is stronger in the Roman
Catholic Church than in Protestant Churches. Because of the belief in the Communion of Saints, Catholics pray for loved ones who have died, and pray not only to God - Father, Son and Holy Spirit - but also to Mary and the
Saints, witnesses to and models of the Christian life. [Orthodox Christians also have the practice of honoring and praying to the Saints.] Devotion to the saints is viewed as an expression of love for those who have faithfully loved the God who is love itself."

Jihadist aka Julia (nice Christian name?),

We are still waiting for an answer to the following:

Hmmm, a professed atheist/politician in a Muslim country? How does that work? Got a name we can verify? Maybe an obituary? Jail location?

And what Islamic sect do you belong to? Leader of said sect is who?

Jihadist

Soooo sorry I made you ill. I do this to people all the time.

I was so happy to hear from you though. Your missives on this site have been most illuminating and heart-warming.

LUV
Henry

A friend of mine in high school was a born-again Christian who believes she was saved on the day she accepted Jesus. I am a Mormon. The idea of salvation by works was heretical to her, BUT she was one of the most upright people I knew. She was chaste, kind to everyone around her, involved in service, actively attended church, etc. I was almost surprised at her "works" since her church taught that she had already been saved. What's the incentive to do good works if you've already been saved? But in a real way, she was showing her faith by her works. (James 2:18)

Her behavior was almost indistinguishable from any believing Mormon girl, but driven by a (seemingly) different doctrine.

For me, this reinforces the idea that we really do show our faith by our works. One is the outward expression while the other is the inward commitment. They aren't really separable and we can't pit one against the other. In that regard, good people everywhere are a lot alike in practice, even if the semantics of their doctrines are very different.

Henry James

I know I'll find you here.

For what it's worth, the wrath of God befell me for taking on you a bit hard in Susan Jacoby's thread re keeping faith in times of war. Not eternal damnation of hellfire, but a bout of food poisoning in Frisco. Could not go with my team to Silicon Valley for business possibilities for the whole week.

But, nice to be in bed. A sort of forced vacation from work, and to deliriously send out e-mails, both business and personal, in four languages under medication. No one understood the e-mails judging by their responses. Of course.

Nice to know, as a true Buddhist, you extend compassion and loving kindness for the suffering of others. But not for me though. I deserve punishment and retribution when I deserve it.

Leaving for home tomorrow. If they'll let me get on the plane after looking at me.

You can call me Julia, my given name, if Jihadist is too "loaded".

My very best Henry.

Henry, Karen:

Thank you for adding a Buddhist and a non-denominational perspective. This is a great start to this thread and I believe approaches what the designers of "On Faith" had in mind by a serious discussion of similarities and differences in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

Time rarely allows me to participate actively in the threads beyond the initial post as a panelist, but I'm home today after recovering from an accident and consequent surgery.

I believe Latter-day Saints will agree with much of what you both say. In fact, differences on this topic are more perceived than real, in my experience, once we get beyond the common caricatures.

Karen nice to see you again.

i KNOW you are the kind of religious person for whom "earning brownie points" is the furthest thing from your soul. Many are like you. My esteem is highest for those who are like you.

the best spirituality, religious or not, is the kind you describe, where your religious experience connects you to others with compassion, and connects you to God in the most profound way.

I as a Buddhist agree that our first human duty is to have compassion and loving kindness for the suffering of others.

"I have sent you hope and I have brought you the rains, and I tell you I am going to give you a new sound, and you will hear it and I will tell you that this sound is speaking of abundance, a year when the women will arise, and when they do, and as they are, they will speak powerfully for the kingdom. I am hearing in the temples of the churches let the woman speak and pray for there is a sweetness that I am sending to you from the women in the house of God. For there is great favor with them. "I am selling out I am going to dedicate my life to the offerings of the Lord." Do you not realize that those that I am sending to you are from Me? For I tell you that as you have remembered the great and mighty men of yesterday, they conquered many giants, and I am telling you this sound is showing Me the sound of bold Messianic Deborah's that are going to petrify the nations of the earth."

For even when you hear them say, "We must make a plan to hover and cover those who are standing strongly over this generation, but I tell you they have that child like faith that I am looking for. I am telling you that the sweetness that they are going to give the church is going to be something that the prognosticators cannot speak of for long. I am telling you this is being released in the lands and the lands are about to see the woman loosened beyond the veil."

"For I am telling you of a place in time when the woman will speak out, and there triumphant charge will shake the lands of plenty. I am sending and telling you to come to the place that I have created for you and I am welcoming all people to come and seek there refuge in this place. I am sending it to you America, My new creation for you that I am opening up the heavens for you to see the presence of My glory. This is something that will change the hearts of the nations and change the presence that has been rooted in darkness for so long. For the darkness is being broken by the glory of the rains of God opening his promises that He made long ago."

"The shift that takes place in America is going to take place in New York and California. For this is where the nation gathers to receive its influence, but today the movement that is going to touch your nations will begin when you open your eyes and tear away the veil that has caused the blindness for so long. If you do not do this says the Lord, more calamities will take place in these areas. For them to see all I require is that you ask of Me in a sincere way and I will tear the linen lining from your eyes and heart so that you can see the world as you never have before, for there is room enough for you there is enough for you to see that you have never seen before. Tear it away, make it disappear and let the enemy of your soul suffer his remorse. And let him face his worst nightmare the Light of God. For when you look into the face of God you will begin to discover that you are in fear, but a holy fear has taken a hold of you and you will no longer have to fear the things of evil again!

For there is going to be concerns for the West Bank and there are going to be talks and treaties and I tell you that this event that will take place in when the nations will gather. But this will be a flimsy thing and a bombing will take place and the treaty will not last long after the attack.

In France I am sending them a time of something new. A time for them to recognize there mistake and learn from them and say, "I want what is best for me and my country. I am going to visit the streets of Paris and they will find a new love a love that is on the level of knowing the intimate level of the Lord most high. I am offering them a new wine skin."

"I am telling you that there will be a time of temperament and a time of impatience as it comes to the Middle East, and I tell you that I will bring forth something that has been locked away from your knowledge, something that has caused you to be in confusion and denial, but not for long, for I will give you the deliverance from on high, that will even make the President look like suddenly there is hope and this Bush will have his hopes come. For as I have sent to you a season of tragedy and terror I was testing and purging this nation to see if their strength is as they say. And from what I have seen from this man, will allow this nation to see a great time in his final months and they will say, "We have endured the test of time and we have been successful, and found favor under the heavens, for today there are words to be announced as it take place as the warfare continues there are prospectives that have been changed, by the initiation of My Spirit and they will even seen evangelism in the secular media."

I have seen something in the prayer closet and I tell you that something that will take place as you view it, you will say we have been trumped, and I have a place for them and I will open the eyes and you will see many in the media who do mission work, and they will send the harvests of America to other poverty stricken nation's. A hand of comapasion will open up and given to the women of God. For the women of God, and the sons of God, will see much more than the limits that man have place upon them and they will do exceedingly more than any of they teachers or mentors have thought would take place. As the Spirit takes hold of them and they will say, "We will not look to what is now present, but we will look at what God has given for our destiny."

Faith and works have a symbiotic relationship. One does not survive and thrive without the other. We demonstrate our faith through our works, and our works increase and strengthen our faith. Just as a marriage only works with a man and woman helping and sustaining each other, so too does our spirituality only increase through the joint efforts of faith and works.

Henry James: as a christian, I do not do good works out of fear of hell or to earn brownie points with God. I am saved "unto good works". Meaning, when I receive the Holy Spirit upon asking Jesus to be my savior, I am transformed and desire to do God's will which clearly encompasses taking care of the poor, the weak, the lonely and the sick. I would venture to say that christians who truly understand that they are not saved by their own efforts would agree with me here. God loves us and asks us to be His agents in a suffering world so out of gratitude and spurred by His Holy Spirit, we step into the world to do our part.

Example: a large group from my non denominational church will be going to Brazil this summer to work with the families living in the dump outside the city of Benevides. They will work on laying out pipes to bring clean water to the people living on the dump and will also run a summer camp for the children so they can play, get nutritious food, and get away from the squalor of their lives for 2 weeks. All the people that are going are already sure of their salvation. So why on earth are they going to spend their summer vacation on a hot dump? Because they are being God's agents in the lives of these children and their families.

Your will know us by our fruits says the Bible. That is our hope and desire as christians.

For added review about Faith vs. Works, see Professors Crossan and Reed's book, In Search of Paul, especially pp. 377-378.

An excerpt: " In the sixteenth century, Luther said two things about Paul's letter to the Romans, one fundamentally right, one fundamentally wrong, both fundamentally important. In the preface to his commentary on that letter he (Luther) said,

..............................
It is impossible to separate works from faith as burning and shining from fire.

That last sentence is both crucial and correct. "

A Modest Proposal
Eliminate Heaven from Religious Systems

The concept of heaven is a GREAT DETRIMENT to authentic moral thought and moral behavior.

Moral behavior based on the promise of reward or the threat of punishment/eternal damnation

is NOT moral behavior. It is operant conditioning. It is moral infancy.

The Buddhists tell us to
practice loving kindness to our neighbors because it is INTRINSICALLY good.

It is good for mankind, and it is good for you.

If I am nice to you because it will get me into heaven, that is a very low level of moral behavior, if it can be called moral at all.

Fundamentalists of all stripes abuse children by instilling a traumatizing fear of hell and damnation in young ones. Let's eliminate this barbaric practice.

It should make NO difference in moral behavior whther there are 3 levels of heaven or 16 or 43.