Back to Basics

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Stein's writing as linked thanks to above cynic:

Stein writes: "Without an openness to the supernatural, the result of any investigation of the life of Christ has predetermined that the resulting Jesus will be radically different from the Jesus who was born of a virgin, was anointed by the Spirit, healed the sick, raised the dead, died for the sins of the world, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven. Yet it is this supernatural Jesus that humanity desperately needs, for only this supernatural Jesus can bridge the gap between human sin and God's holiness. What the world so critically needs is a Savior, but only a supernatural Jesus can be a Savior." (Jesus the Messiah, p. 13) Stein continues: "In writing this work I have assumed the presence of the supernatural in the life of Jesus. In other words, this life of Christ has been written from a believer's viewpoint." (op. cit., p. 13)

Stein considers the virgin birth, Herod's slaughter of the children, and the visit of the three wise men to be historical incidents. Stein contends that Jesus was sinless although his family did not notice this fact. Stein believes that Jesus, assured of his status as Christ at the baptism administered by John, worked out what it meant to be the Messiah when tempted by the devil in the wilderness: "He would not use his messianic powers for his own ends. Jesus rejected all political concepts of messiahship and especially the path of the Zealots. Instead he would accept the path of the suffering servant that God had ordained for him." (op. cit., p. 110) Jesus chose the twelve disciples to be the foundation of the church. Stein recognizes that "the ethic of the kingdom" is realized in living as God's children and loving outcasts, sinners, and enemies.

Stein writes: "The events of Caesarea Philippi were clearly the watershed and turning point of Jesus' ministry. It is at this point that the disciples came to acknowledge, despite their own misconceptions, that Jesus was indeed the Christ. Upon receiving this confession Jesus began to prepare the disciples for his forthcoming passion. This new teaching would cause even more confusion during Jesus' ministry, but after the resurrection the disciples would be able to see clearly that the cross was not a tragedy or mistake but part of the divine mystery. The resurrection would not create a new understanding of the person and work of Jesus, the Christ. Rather, it would confirm what he had taught all along: Jesus of Nazareth was indeed the Christ, the Son of God, the Savior of the world." (op. cit., p. 165)

Stein writes that Jesus "claimed authority to purify the temple and to pronounce judgment on it" in the action of the cleansing of the temple (op. cit., p. 196). Jesus instituted the Eucharist as a memorial of his redeeming sacrifice. Stein emphasizes that God was fully in control in the betrayal of Judas, the desertment of the disciples, the denials of Peter, and the execution of Jesus, all of which were predicted by Jesus. Stein rejects any attempt to deny the involvement of the Jewish leaders in the death of Jesus. Stein reviews the arguments against the idea that Jesus was not crucified and for the idea that his tomb was found empty by the women on the third day. Stein concludes by saying that the life of Jesus did not end with the crucifixion, as Jesus rose from the dead and will return on the last day.

Parker,

Again and again and again!!!

Give us a break!!! Words from Moroni, the "pwtfft"?? The words you cite are from a Latter Day wordsmith who borrowed/plagiarized said words from some religious book of sayings or prayers.

And you cite good old fortune teller Isaiah as gospel!!! Give us a break!!! Simply more "wordsmithing" but this time from OT Jewish scribes who borrowed/plagiarized their words from the ancients.

I love Isaiah 29, as did Moroni. Verses 4 and 24 are an appropriate close here:
"And thou shalt be brought down, and shalt speak out of the ground, and thy speech shall be low out of the dust, and thy voice shall be, as of one that hath a familiar spirit, out of the ground, and thy speech shall whisper out of the dust....They also that erred in spirit shall come to understanding, and they that murmured shall learn doctrine."

These verses need not offend, nor Moroni's words. They are an invitation to read and consider, and find an abundance of light that "shineth in the darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not." Adieu.

Parker,

Give us a break!!! Words from Moroni, the "pwtfft"?? The words you cite are from a Latter Day wordsmith who borrowed/plagiarized said words from some religious book of sayings or prayers.

TO KELLY MATTINGLY AND THE REST OF HUMANITY:
What I have written many times, at least I have tried too, is that believing in and knowing God's Name is not some kind of free ticket to the "good place" and it doesn't matter what you do.

When I wrote, "It is important what you do and WHY you do it and also what you know", I not only meant it but thought it was kind of self-explainatory because not only Jesus said it in the bible but the bible itself says it all over the place, and a lot of the people that say they believe in the literalness of the bible conveniently toss that aside.

Also when I wrote that, "The True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds not of religious affiliations or lack thereof" the two statements actually say some of the same things.

God is so much nicer than what some of the people that call themselves "christians" write that all that some of them seem to know about God is His Name.

God's Plan is for all of His children and I might add all of His brothers and sisters, since the Second Person of the Trinity became one of us, to be with Him in His Kingdom, the new heaven and the new earth.

God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. God is not only a Just God but also a Merciful God and He did not ask us to be better than Him and He said we are to FORGIVE EVERYONE.

Being a christian is carrying on the work begun by Jesus with His help and the help of the Holy Spirit. It is not judging and condemning others. It is not getting a holier than thou attitude because you know God's Name. It is not trying to cram down other people's throats what you believe but it is trying to live it.

Take care, be ready, remember the night of the sixth day will get here before the dawn of the seventh day, see you all in the Kingdom.

Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum

Concerned,
What's interesting to me is that if an honest person takes away Joseph Smith, the LDS teachings about the spirit world and the degrees of glory, appearances of angels to restore knowledge and priesthood authority that had not been properly continued on the earth after the deaths of the Apostles, and whatever other "supernatural" belief that might be questioned by a person lacking an understanding of the principle of faith and why it is necessary--then that honest person would still find a substantial set of teachings that lead to a happy, fulfilled life on earth. Many of these teachings are common to Christianity in general, but some are not, such as avoiding "unrighteous dominion," leadership by councils including the importance of a family council, developing self-reliance (including preparing for disasters or unemployment) plus the importance of the extended family as a unit of support within a society, focusing on meaningful service at every level of the social fabric (not just by the few, but by everyone), and many other teachings. So I say again that you don't know what you're talking about.

I love the English language and the rich literature within our language. Having read the Book of Mormon many times (also in Spanish), I know first-hand that its literary richness is remarkable, and simply could not be duplicated by one man or a few men working together. It is simple, yet complex at the same time, and speaks to a reader on many levels, with symbolism and clear teachings that offer truths about life and how to live it, besides testifying eloquently and unequivocably about Jesus Christ and His divine mission.

Since as you noted, this blog is about the afterlife, I suppose Moroni's written words (as translated into English) would be appropriate for this space: "ye shall know that I lie not, for ye shall see me at the bar of God; and the Lord God will say unto you: Did I not declare my words unto you, which were written by this man, like as one crying from the dead, yea, even as one speaking out of the dust? I declare these things unto the fulfilling of the prophecies...And God shall show unto you, that that which I have written is true."

if one is trying 2 scientifically prove matters that are unseen, unheard, unexperienced..... it would seem that the scientific method of observing things with controlled variables to prove the fundemental facts of truth as they relate 2 each other....explaining things that we as humans alway know have to make sense on a fundamental level... i think it would bee fruitless 2 try 2 explain faith and spirituality scientifically.... however... correct me if i'm wrong here... doesn't the great edifice of of agnostic explimation for the human phsyche... the dsmv 1V make an exception with regards to hallucinations and delusions with steps taken 2 diagnose the differential diagnosis of mental illness in real life when these delusions or hallucinations are in conjunction with spirituality or religion? what does this truely say? very interesting to contemplate i would think. could the so called placaebo effect be scientic proof of a healing spirit instead? I'm just the dyslexic son of a son of a blueridge mountain hillbilly... eye-m naught 2 brite

Parker,

This blog is about religion. The topic this week is about the afterlife. Mormonism unfortunately is based on a false premise for both. No added literature or reading will change the facts.

i.e Mormonism is a religion based on the revelations of a mythical flying spirit. Joe Smith was simply another hallucinator, profiteering on his "visions" and your failure to separate fact from fiction.

artistkvip1@yahoo.com says; correct me if I'm wrong, Jesus seemed to be teaching us most of all to act...

Jesus most of all taught that through Him we can have an afterlife. Through the sacrifice of Christ on the cross God has provided a way for us to experience an afterlife. Not just any afterlife but a glorious eternal life. This was most of all what Christ taught and it was his primary mission.

John 3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.

it would seem that we could all pretend 2 understand and know the things that we admit that we have to accept on faith and spend many hours perhaps days pontificating upon what we believe.... but correct me if I'm wrong, Jesus seemed to be teaching us most of all to act..... to do... to heal what we can around us and if we have time left over ..sure its nice 2 wonder and hope, and believe and the man who turned water into wine most likely liked to have a little fun every now and then I would like 2 think. peopele much wiser than myself have often pointed out that faith without works is fantisy. I myself have had near death experiences and know whut eye no.

Es interesante ver como hoy dia los teologos filosofos y criticos de arte opinan sobre las Sagradas Escrituras y las Obras de arte del Renacimiento sin antes haber leido en profundidad tdos los libros adjudicados a los padres del cristianismo ( anteriores al concilio de Nicea) y a las obras completas del biografo Renacentista Giorgio Vasari.
Uno de ellos ( ignorado por la teologia mundial) explica junto a Flavio Josefo y advierten a aquellos que quieran iniciarse en las Sagradas Revelaciones de la Biblia que .." las escrituras de Moises no se corresponden con el sentido literal de la palabra ", mensaje escalofriante para aquellos que pretendan interpretar y analizar el antiguo y el nuevo testamento tras su primera lectura.
Nunca nadie penso porque razon la historia biblica vista desde el punto de vista humano tiene que recurrir a la fe para poder interpretar los acontecimientos sobrenaturales que en ella se relatan ?
Que pasaria si el "cristo" como lo menciona Rudolf Steiner fuera el simbolo espiritual con que la filosofia griega a tratado de explicar que la ceguera que curaba jesus no es de los ojos sino de la inteligencia ?
Nunca nadie penso que las pàrabolas son mensajes creados para que la inteligencia pueda discernir ?
Nunca nadie penso que la muerte Biblica puede ser la ignorancia ? ........
Creo que la biblia contiene un mensaje que explica que dentro de nosotros mismos ( en nuestra mente) hay un enemigo al que debemos vencer y borrar de la memoria
Cuando ese mensaje sea comprendido por la humanidad mente y cuerpo volveran a estar en armonia, y la verdad permitira como dijo jesus alcanzar la libertad , que es la inmortalidad del alma , aqui en el planeta tierra.

Es interesante ver como hoy dia los teologos filosofos y criticos de arte opinan sobre las Sagradas Escrituras y las Obras de arte del Renacimiento sin antes haber leido en profundidad tdos los libros adjudicados a los padres del cristianismo ( anteriores al concilio de Nicea) y a las obras completas del biografo Renacentista Giorgio Vasari.
Uno de ellos ( ignorado por la teologia mundial) explica junto a Flavio Josefo y advierten a aquellos que quieran iniciarse en las Sagradas Revelaciones de la Biblia que .." las escrituras de Moises no se corresponden con el sentido literal de la palabra ", mensaje escalofriante para aquellos que pretendan interpretar y analizar el antiguo y el nuevo testamento tras su primera lectura.
Nunca nadie penso porque razon la historia biblica vista desde el punto de vista humano tiene que recurrir a la fe para poder interpretar los acontecimientos sobrenaturales que en ella se relatan ?
Que pasaria si el "cristo" como lo menciona Rudolf Steiner fuera el simbolo espiritual con que la filosofia griega a tratado de explicar que la ceguera que curaba jesus no es de los ojos sino de la inteligencia ?
Nunca nadie penso que las pàrabolas son mensajes creados para que la inteligencia pueda discernir ?
Nunca nadie penso que la muerte Biblica puede ser la ignorancia ? ........
Creo que la biblia contiene un mensaje que explica que dentro de nosotros mismos ( en nuestra mente) hay un enemigo al que debemos vencer y borrar de la memoria
Cuando ese mensaje sea comprendido por la humanidad mente y cuerpo volveran a estar en armonia, y la verdad permitira como dijo jesus alcanzar la libertad , que es la inmortalidad del alma , aqui en el planeta tierra.

Concerned,
My interest in this particular genre is to try and elevate the discussion from "theatre of the absurd" to more along the the lines of "Autocrat of the Breakfast Table". If you have "been there, done that," did any of your reading of such literature move you to thoughts or feelings that "lie too deep for tears"?

My suggestion to you is that although you share humankind's inborn desire to be of service to others through what you view as your strength, acting like a robot with repetition that is stagnant does not enhance believability or listenability. How about digging deeper into your literary skill or your literary past, and aiding in raising this genre from a farce to something that at least attempts to be ennobling and uplifting? (On the other hand, you could try a hands-on method of being of service to others--one that could bring you deeper joy and not the feeling when you wake up in the morning that "there is nothing new under the sun.")

To / Brothers & Sisters...As all good people to knowing God one must be equal with God,not the grovling snivling fools that you having become. You but allow others to brainwash as abuse that you become as servants to man an prisoner unto their deceit cunning,God having no need or wish that you come a begging as a dog,unto its master to obey on call,get off your knees,stand before God as equal,thus win your freedom.YOUR BROTHER in ARMS....LUCIFER xxx X

Mr. Baum: I appreciate your words. We believe what we believe and too many of us believe that what we believe is right, true, accurate, and the only principle in which to believe. For all that do believe in a God, I personally think that your life's experience can be second-to-none as long as you live your life based upon you belief system and principles. I'm sure there are people who do not believe in a God that have the same. Now I know for me, that until my God shows itself in some abstract form and audibly announces to the universe that I am to take God's place - then I say embrace your beliefs, allow everyone else to embrace theirs, and everything else in life will take care of itself.
On another note: for everyone who stakes claim to their own Biblical account of an "Afterlife", does your Book / Messenger express the following:
"Thou shalt not kill." (KJV)?

Parker,

Hmmm, been there done that.

And repetition is a great educational tool especially for those brainwashed in a religion based on the revelations of a mythical flying spirit. Joe Smith was simply another hallucinator, profiteering on his "visions" and your failure to separate fact from fiction.

Hello to you too good friend, Parker. I do hope your daughter is feeling better. I hate it when my kids get sick. It just kills me....

All is well here too (california). Nice weather today, but the rains are coming. Good ol' winter has arrived. For me, I'm looking forward to avoiding some winter and taking a week vacation in Cabo San Lucas in a few weeks. Sometimes, there is nothing better to rest your mind and spirit than a little R&R, ya know what I mean? I look forward to exploring another beautiful aspect of God's creation.

Take care Parker and maybe I'll chat with you a little later.

David,
I'm so glad to hear from you, and that I guessed wrong. Hope all is well with you and your family, also. We have a beautiful day where I'm at, but I have a daughter who is quite sick. Such is life. Best to you, kind friend.

Parker,

I've been following along just for entertainment sake but haven't posted anything. I just saw that you thought it was me that posted something. Sorry, but I think you have been mistaken. I'm just reading along. I still do enjoy the discussions but find them endless and pointless at times and this, my reasoning for not engaging.

Best to you Parker.

Hope all is well.

Concerned.....get a life dude! Same posts, same ignorance. How bout changing it up a bit?

Concerned,
Good morning to you. Your acronym speaks of being liberated, but I consider your remarks and language choices like one of the "lost boys" who never grew up, so of course you would refer to tinkerbell and make snide remarks. Your logic and reasoning and rationalization do not, it appears to me, lead you in a helpful direction in your life. Rather, you appear stagnant based on your comments, fixed in one place and not able to move on and find all the good that there is in the world.

I choose to find the good. I see a wonderful spark of divinity in children wherever I see them. Just because you choose to ignore a realm of existence that is real and purposeful, doesn't mean I have to. Have a good day.

You might try reading some of the classics, Dickens, Thoreau, Emerson, Oliver Wendell Holmes, Shakespeare. Get some uplifting language and thoughts into you life!

Parker,

Hmmm,

“I believe the Bible is inspired.”

“Why?” “Because it says so.” Would
anyone let that logic pass if it came from the followers of any other book
or person?

“I believe x is inspired because x says so.” Fill in the blanks:
x=Pat Robertson
x=the ayatolloah Sistani
x=David Koresh
x=the Koran
x=Parker
x=Joe Smith

more “logic”?
“I believe there is One God Jehovah because He is revealed in the infallible
Bible. I believe the Bible is infallible because it is the Word of the One God Jehovah.”

But then again you believe in tinkerbells!!!

Hello, David (I assume) and Concerned,
Both of your entries remind me of cartoons I used to watch as a child. Humor is a good thing. Thanks.

Anonymous,
If you ever want to have a go at listing all of the doctrines, ordinances, covenants, and promises of the Bible, and see what religion most closely aligns with them, let's have a go at it. Islam is nothing like Mormonism, but you use such fallacious reasoning as you cited to hide from sincere study. That's fine.

You'll do fine with the Bible. Live by it! Learn by it! Grow by it! It offers truth and vast dimensions of growth to everyone who reads it sincerely. The Mormons take the Bible more literally than any other religion in the world, but nobody else will admit that--they hide from finding out. Read the whole Bible, read it again, study, think, pray, read more, live the teachings, love the doctrines, believe the promises. "Seek and ye shall find. Knock and it shall be opened unto you."

There are "pretty wingy talking flying fictional thingie"s aka "pwtfft"s aka tinkerbells aka angels and then there are "ugly wingy talking flying fictional thingie"s aka "uwtfft"s aka "demons of the demented" aka satans and devils.

This article absolutely amazed me. For any mormon who wants to find truth, please read this and know how Satan works. Comparing Smith and Muhammed; how crazy is this? How similiar both are in the creation of their cults. For any Christian who knows the truth in Jesus, this is a great article to know how Satan works to decieve not just a few, but the masses. And evidently, he has used the same techniques over and over again because they work. Satan is a smart lil' devil ain't he? Only by God's Word can you know truth. Those who claim that the Bible has been corrupted, corrupt the truth.

http://www.inplainsite.org/html/smith_and_muhammed.html

"Back to Basics" seems a sweeping innocuous comment, generally intended to impress others that such "basics" are irrefutable.

Too, i'm disappointed that you chose to snidely infer, "...any Christian worthy of the name..." must surely believe as "I" and other fundamentalists.

I respectfully suggest Michael, the 'basics' you set out are not the basics Jesus set out. You are simply joining forces with traditional Christianity that has displaced Jesus' basics with redemptive salvationism mustered from the theologies of Pharasee Millennialism and presented by Rome to the newly established State Religion. As i'm sure you are aware.

Your answers to the questions will surely fit you in as a conventional Christian Mormon. I'm sure that is to your, and LDSism's satisfaction. It hasn't been easy to get such sectarian acceptance.

While you are welcome to the Institutional Basics, i point you in the direction of Christ's Sermon-on-the-Mount. There will be found Jesus' basics.

They have to do with how to live in mortality with neighbors AND enemies peacefully. Not competing for resources but sharing and cooperating. You also know those instruction.

What concerns me, is the shift from Jesus teachings to serving Mammon in so many anti-Christ ways, while pretending to represent Him to the world.

Christ left us with His basics: "Two New Commandments". You also know what they are. I don't see reference to them in your article.

Warm regards, Roger

Carol in her first post on this topic asks: "If someone were to actually see God like Moses or Joseph Smith, could that person have God proven for him/herself?"

It's an interesting question, because the Bible does not give a physical description of God. In fact, it does not give physical descriptions of any of its characters from Adam and Eve to Jesus Christ and the Apostle Paul. In terms of God, I suppose you could have Him prove Himself by causing a supernatural event (say raining inside a car when it's not raining outside as in the movie "Oh God" starring the late George Burns).

Of course, since none of the characters in the Bible have any physical descriptions, how can one know, for example, when one has seen (as some Roman Catholics believe) the Virgin Mary, the Mother of Jesus. The Roman Church has many shrines to her (Guadalupe, Mexico and Lourdes, France, to name just two), and these were built upon original sightings. Again, since no physical description of Mary is given in the Bible, if she appears as a vision to someone, how would the person know that the woman speaking to him is who she claims to be. Unlike God, you could not request a supernatural form of proof.

The case of Jesus Christ is an interesting one. For a while, it appeared that there was some proof of Him and His physical likeness in the Shroud of Turin which shows the faint outlines of a man when you study it closely. However, back in the 1990's (if memory serves), the University of Arizona was given a small piece of the Shroud to carbon-test for age, and the results suggested that the Shroud had only been around since the 1400's--which puts identifying Jesus in the same category as other Biblical characters.

Parker,

No matter how you view Moroni, the Mormon view is that he/she was a "pwtfft". That alone makes Mormonism, to put it bluntly, a sham.

Hi JD

Yes, it IS a paradoxical position to say

1. there is ONE important commandment and the rest is commentary
(love your neighbor as yourself in christian idiom)
(that which is hateful to you, do not unto others in rabbi hillel's idiom)
(practice loving kindness towards all your fellows in the Buddha's idiom)
)Abou Ben Adam's stance)

2. Achievement of this obedience doesn't require belief in God (Buddha), or certainly not the same God (Allah or Yahweh or Krishna will do just fine)

3. There is only one sect that has the divine authority from "God" to spread the True Gospel - "the Church is True."

All the thousands of Mormons i know are mostly like Parker: they do what is right and moral and loving in this world and don't worry overmuch about the Theological Intricacies of the type that Jesuits or Rabbis can discuss for millenia.

But is IS clearly a Paradox, ain't it.

Love
HJ

Carol,
Thanks again for such marvelous insights you share.

Henry James,
I concur with JD1 (not to minimize what you said, which has its merits so long as a person doesn't stay in "one place" with what they have.)

Concerned,
I guess that I failed to communicate with you. I had already read the Angel Moroni piece in Wikipedia. What you don't seem to have understood is that the city of Moroni in those islands didn't have a sign when the first inhabitants arrived there, saying "Welcome to Moroni". I asked about the origin of the name of that particular city. You haven't provided that. Somebody long ago came up with the name from somewhere. (If you can find and tell us all the origin of the name, based on historical sources from those islands, that would be great--I will sincerely love to know.)

You also seem to have failed to understand that by finding out historically that the Comoros Islands had Polynesian immigrants during the early centuries AD, the origin of the name could be (not saying it is--I have no idea--but could be) the same Captain Moroni that is one of the most beloved historical figures in the Book of Mormon, who lived before the time of Christ.

The upshot is, before one jumps to conclusions, one should be very careful about knowing the full scope of the material they are researching (or attempting to appear scholarly about). Maybe you should travel to those islands, and do your own independent research. Good luck to you, sincerely. (Thanks for being concerned enough about me to share what you thought I hadn't read.) Peace to you, as our friend Henry is wont to say.

HJ,

I think vast majority of Mormons would read Parker's universalistic post and nod their head in agreement. It is an paradoxical position to take a universalistic outlook, yet still make some exclusive claims about divine authority. It deserves much treatment if we ever get a formidable philosophical and literary tradition.

Best,

Jd1

Parker,

Repeating the reference you failed to see:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Moroni

The line is active simply click on it.

Then copy and paste the appropriate references in your Mormon notebook for future use.

Carol, when i was a mormon youth i recited this poem in church, which sounds to me like a synonym for your "aha""

Abou ben Adam (may his tribe increase!)
awoke one night from a deep dream of peace,
And saw, within the moonlight of his room,
Making it rich, and like a lily in bloom,
an angel, writing in a book of of gold.
Exceeding peace had made Ben Adam bold,
And to the Prescence in the room he said:
"What writest thou?" The vision raised its head,
And, with a look made of all sweet accord,
Answered, "The names of those who love the Lord."
"And is mine one?"said Abou, "Nay, not so,"
Replied the angel. Abou spoke more low,
But cheerily still, and said, "I pray thee, then,
Write me as one who loves his fellow men."
The angel wrote, and vanished. The next night
It came again, with a great awakening light,
And showed the names whom love of God had blest,
And lo! Ben adam's name led all the rest.

- Leigh Hunt

Parker
the reason i love you, cantankerous SOB that you are , is that you truly believe Muslim, Buddhist, Secular Humanist, and other paths are fine
"so long as they lead to truth, light, love, forgiveness, compassion, kindness, humility, peacefulness, integrity, virtue, meekness, and hope. The steps of growth are different for every person, and timetables are different for every person. What matters is the direction they are headed."

Absolutely right, kiddo.

You and I can believe whatever we want about the afterlife. If our beliefs deprive us of compassion, they are worthless (Jesus would agree - heck, even Paul would agree.)

So any particular "gospel" that leads one to loving kindness, integrity, and hope is a good gospel And presumably, there are more than one.

Peace and Love
Henry

Parker!

THANK YOU! I think I just had an Aha! moment.

I can't KNOW God if I have never tried to serve God. Which I haven't. I've tried to philosophize ABOUT God -- maybe so I wouldn't seem stupid to myself or a few others whose opinions I respect.

And knowing God depends upon the intent of my heart....

So, if I get this right, if I am going through whatever motions just to be "theologically correct" with the "right" people, my intent is actually SELF-centered and it would get me nowhere.

I could do many good things, which would be fine I guess, but I would never know God.

(!)

Concerned,
Thanks for the comic relief you afford through your comments. What little I could find about the origin of the names of Moroni and Comoros Islands was--nothing. How have you done researching the origins of those names? Wikipedia doesn't provide it, nor any google search I could find. 'Seems Polynesians were part of the original inhabitants. Guess what? The Book of Mormon speaks of several migrations from the location of the Nephites and Lamanites, some by water, to unkown places. If you ever come across the original source of those names (are they transliterations of Arabic, by the way?), let us all know. Happy googling and wikipediaing.

There typically is a "pwtfft" involved with the most important elements of religion which of course makes one quickly question the validity of said religion. What sayest thou about Moroni and the aferlife???

Moroni is also known as a clone of the fictional Gabriel" or "the golden hornblower", or "son of Mormon, the propheteer/profiteer", or "actually Nephi", or "good buds with John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Moses, Elijah, and Elias all who ministered to Joseph Smith as angels" or was Moroni simply the capital city of the Comoros (Cumorah) Islands???

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angel_Moroni

Henry,
Thanks for your empathy and kindness. I know you've heard many descriptions of this particular subject, and I don't know what those who follow other beliefs such as Muslims feel deep down in their inner soul (although I've heard from a close family friend who had heard the experience directly from her, of a young woman who had been raised as a Muslim who experienced the life-changing experience in her heart as she read the Book of Mormon, that Mosiah 5 is talking about).

Mormons don't say others can't feel faith feelings and be guided by faith experiences, so long as they lead to truth, light, love, forgiveness, compassion, kindness, humility, peacefulness, integrity, virtue, meekness, and hope. The steps of growth are different for every person, and timetables are different for every person. What matters is the direction they are headed.

Living the gospel means growth, unquestionably, through day-by-day change for the better. Truth emanates regardless of the name we call it, or the country we live in, or where we find it. It just is.

'Reminds me of Holmes' "Autocrat of the Breakfast Table" and the quote about "it comes back with its own elevated majesty."

You're a deep thinker and insightful observer, Henry James. I hope my thoughts make sense.

Love to you, Parker

Hello Parker,

When I have the experience of faith in Allah, and I have that same kind of experience that Carol has in Christ and Joseph Smith

how do I know that my faith is wrong and her faith is right, since Mormonism is the only true Gospel?

(btw, as you know, I and billions of my family have had faith experiences (in Mormonism) that i have been intimately connected with, so "no inkling" is a bit of a stretch. I am known as an unusually empathetic person)

love
HJ

Carol,
Thanks very much for your insightful analogy. Your comments and HJ's response reminded me of some verses from Mosiah 5 that I think show why one person can have no inkling about what another person who has experienced faith is talking about:

7 And now, because of the covenant which ye have made ye shall be called the children of Christ, his sons, and his daughters; for behold, this day he hath spiritually begotten you; for ye say that your hearts are changed through faith on his name; therefore, ye are born of him and have become his sons and his daughters.
8 And under this head ye are made free, and there is no other head whereby ye can be made free. There is no other name given whereby salvation cometh; therefore, I would that ye should take upon you the name of Christ, all you that have entered into the covenant with God that ye should be obedient unto the end of your lives...
12 I say unto you, I would that ye should remember to retain the name written always in your hearts, ...that ye hear and know the voice by which ye shall be called, and also, the name by which he shall call you.
13 For how knoweth a man the master whom he has not served, and who is a stranger unto him, and is far from the thoughts and intents of his heart?

Gaby

No, I am not a female.

Bere in Massachusetts we have Gay Marriage, even for dead people like me.

So I am my husband's husband, as he is mine.

But of course we don't have sexual relations, as that would be a sin under Mormon doctrine.

love
Henry

Henry James ---- I can't believe it, you are a female???

Carol asks whether a person's experience of
Seeing God proves God For Himself.

She then makes the analogy to the Faith she has in her husband, and how she might go about confirming that her faith is justified.

Carol, I agree with you, I would not want to go to all the troubel of monitoring my husband in the way you describe. I, like you, would rely on my faith that he wouldn't betray me.

There is a difference between your husband and God (I suspect). You see your husband. You see how he interacts with you. You can observe when he leaves for work and whether he stays out all night, or smells like perfume when he comes home.

God never smells like Perfume when he comes home, cuz he never comes home, except in your imagination (which is made up of all those cute little electrons).
But yes, God's "reality" and existence can be True for you if you want it to be. A woman is free to believe what she wants to believe. And if you feel it makes your life better, go to it.

For me, it is important to have faith in SOME things, and NOT have faith in others.

Like, Never have faith in a promise made to you by a politician.

So the *right* faith is a good thing. But one can exercise faith in a delusionary, uninformed, naively optimistic way, as well as the realistic way you have faith in your husband.

TO KELLY MATTINGLY AND THE REST OF HUMANITY: You wrote, "My God did not create a Hell", and you are absolutely correct. God did not create hell, we build it ourselves. We will all be judged contrary to what a lot of people think, all that is, is being responsible for our actions. It is important what you do and why you do it and what you know. God gave us free will and God knew that some would never repent, repent means being sorry, admitting that you did what you did and not blaming others for the wrong that you have done, we have all done wrong, at least I have. God's Plan is for all of His children to be in the Kingdom which will be permeated with Love since God is Pure Love. I have met God but I have not seen Him and He is a Trinity. God is not a He or a She or an it but is Pure Love, I was taught as a child that God is Love, but I had no idea that it was a literal statement until God the Father, as the First Person of the Trinity is referred to, came into my heart on the 28th of January of 2000. God-Incarnate was a Man. The True, Living, Triune, Triumphant God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof. You also wrote, "All I can do is live each day embracing my God beliefs and live my life as I believe my God wants.", and I say go for it. Some of the people that call themselves "christian", don't have a clue. Jesus is the only human being that chose to become one, and what he lived and taught and died for is the salvation of the entire human family. Watered-down christianity is not even close to being christian just like some people that call themselves "christian" aren't christian either in the true sense of the word. If people want to know what being a christian is, they should look to Jesus rather than people that call themsselves christian including me. I am just a messenger, the New Testament Moses, and what I am here to say is: God wins, satan loses, a tie is unacceptable. Hell and spiritual death are both real and Jesus won the keys to both and laid them in our laps, so to speak, and we are to "PROCLAIM THE GOOD NEWS", and that is the captives,those that built their own hell, shall be released and the dead, those in spiritual death whether breathing or not, shall rise. It really does upset a lot of "christians" of all persuations that God is so inclusive. Take care, see you in the Kingdom. Sincerely, Thomas Paul Moses Baum.

I have a question:

Since we all agree that you can't PROVE the existence of God to a third party, which third party will always come up with some reductionist explanation about your electrons, can it be said that the existence of God can be "proven" to the person who directly experienced Him/Her/It?

If someone were to actually SEE God, like Moses or Joseph Smith, could that person have God PROVEN for himself?

Obviously, everyone who doesn't experience God directly has a good deal of FAITH involved in the process. Sometimes people have faith in the wrong things or wrong people, and suffer deep wounds as a result (like having trust and faith in a spouse who is secretly unfaithful) but it seems that there is some important lesson to be acquired by utilizing faith instead of knowledge.

I suppose I could install video cameras and GPS devices to track my husband's whereabouts. I could install a key-logger on his home and work computers. I could track all the calls made on his various phones. I could even hire an ex-Marine to physically divert him from any suspicious encounter. Then, I could KNOW that he is faithful to me. But what about his heart? Is he faithful in his thoughts and feelings?

Well, I suppose I could have him wired to the teeth to detect every physiological change that might be the product of either sincerity or deception: perspiration, heart rate, blood pressure, temperature, brain waves, etc. And thus I could also monitor his reliability on that score.

Hmmm. It seems to me that there is just something better about exercising faith in my husband rather than seeking out perfect knowledge of his fidelity. There is no doubt that I would be deeply wounded if I were mistaken, but perhaps that is a price I am willing to pay.

What I have learned so far from the LDS commentators here is that part of the purpose of this life is to learn to live by faith. Knowledge is something we had BEFORE we came here, and we only progressed so far by having absolute knowledge. There is some important lesson to be learned in living by faith -- so we have a temporary mortal existence to develop in this regard.

Well, I think that's an interesting perspective, as do all my subatomic particles.

Concerned

I for one think Mr Otterson's salary is completely appropriate.

peace
Henry

Mr. Otterson,

Your support of the Mormon form of the afterlife is severely compromised by your six figure salary paid by said Mormon church.

Mr. Otterson,

Your support of the Mormon form of the afterlife is severely comprised by your six figure salary paid by said Mormon church.

Henry James:

As a former Catholic, I can attest to the complications of the afterlife according to the Roman faith. You have Heaven, Hell, Purgatory, and Limbo (where those good people went who died preceeding Christ's birth).

Around a thousand years ago, the Italian author and satirist Dante wrote the three-volume work, "The Divine Comedy," with each volume supposedly describing in detail the various torments of Hell ("The Inferno,"); the place where those who had to be cleansed before were saved (Purgatory, but I forget the volume's title); and Heaven (again, I forget the volume's title). The Roman church would later use the book as a way to explain the afterlife to peasants.

The funny thing was that Dante got banned from his hometown of Florence, Italy, for his efforts, and the Church was not very happy with his 3-volume tome. The reason, it turns out, was that Dante, in truth, was a great satirist. The names of the people that he placed in his mythical kingdoms were, in fact, quite real--Dante was making character judgments about the people he knew in Florence and placing them accordingly in his book--and many did not like being judged so harshly. In addition, the Catholic Church wasn't too impressed, because Dante described a special tormenting place and torture for the Popes in Hell!

A couple more thoughts about Dante, and then I'll let my keyboard rest. Apparently, during his lifetime, he had both a wife and two mistresses, meaning he was no "saint", at least not in terms of Catholic nor LDS nor any other Christian teachings of which I know. Second, there has been a lot of speckulation about Beatrice, the woman who supposedly guides Dante through the upper part of Purgatory (where he gets cleansed) and Heaven--many scholars thought that she was a mythical character. According to an item I read in PLAYBOY magazine over 20 years ago (and I don't know where they got this information), Beatrice was a real woman whom Dante adored, but he could never muster enough courage to speak to her. So she became this mythical guide/heroine in the 2nd and 3rd books of "The Divine Comedy".

What an elaboration! And to think that as a child, I thought it all to be true.

JD my friend

as a theological question, it would be interesting to compare the specificity of Catholic eschatology with that of the Mormons.

There is no more elaborate philosophical/theological history than the Catholics'. The cliche of "how many angels can dance on the head of a pin" didn't come from nowhere.

If you add up all the canonical details about Limbo and purgatory etc, I expect that you get a system that is at least as complicated as that of LDS.

The Jewish Midrash tradition is probably even more voluminous. I would say that it is a testimony to the evident learnedness and thirst for knowledge that Mormon culture has always promoted.

Whatever else you say about Joseph Smith, he created an elaborate theological universe, with or without God's help.

cheers

Betty's Brother

I can see how some might be a little put off by the specificity of the vision of the afterlife revealed to Joseph Smith. Like James has said in the past, the more specific you get, it seems more improbable that reality matches every detail.

Since I believe in a loving, personal, communicative God, I don’t find it hard to believe that God would provide details to His children concerning a matter that so preoccupies the human soul. I would expect him to do so. He put us in a world where pain and death happens. What he has revealed about the life beyond provides us some perspective as to why we are here in this fallen world, and what he has in store for us.

Best to you all!

Jd1

So much anger, so many here are too eager to point fingers and make statements which are unfounded. To reply to many of these posts would be truly pointless. The scriptures are before us, Jesus has promised that those who hunger and thirst after righteousness shall be filled. Those that seek shall find, to those that knock, the doors shall be opened.

It is too easy for many people who consider themselves righteous, and true followers of Christ to be so negative and lazy about other religions, even their own.

To each his own. But do your own research from official sites. Otherwise you are not getting the whole story. To not do so is like going to Judas to learn about Jesus. It says more about those pointing their fingers than those having their fingers pointed at.

Prov. 26: 27.
27 Whoso diggeth a pit shall fall therein: and he that rolleth a stone, it will return upon him.

You all have provoked my "thinking outside the box." I see a lot of reference to the Book of Mormon, Joseph Smith, and other books and persons - but I ask you: Can anyone really answer the first question? I say you can answer it; however, you'd never be able to prove your answer. Now, I don't think this is about what can or cannot be proven. The proposed question is, Is there life after death? It can only be answered with one's belief. What a person thinks and believes is just that, and that is all. People believe there's an afterlife - people believe there isn't. I was raised a lot like you - Hell = fire --> unsaved / Heaven = eternal bliss and perfection --> the "saved" according to John 3:16 KJV. Just because that's what I read in that book, what my parents taught me, and the Preacher expressed - DOES NOT MAKE IT SO. Beliefs and opinions are like armpits - everyone has them.
I believe in a God. For God to be God to me, I neither liken Him to human nor human to Him. That being said, My God did not create a Hell, nor would he condemn one to such a place for ANY reason because if He'd damn some soul to anything less than perfection - then He's not perfect love, which makes Him human-like - then there is no God.
God is either God or human - to you, which is (S)He?
"God the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Which part of that trinity decided to love conditionally, judge and condemn certain humans based on certain principles, and created a Heaven for the far-from perfect, converted Christians' spirits to live for eternity?
Think about it, the aforementioned attributes (liabilities) can be none other than Human traits. It's difficult for me to fathom that a God could remotely resemble a human like me. All I can do is live each day embracing my God beliefs and live my life as I believe my God wants.

Over the years, I have appreciated knowing of the law of restoration and finding out that there is an ordinance of the resurrection that we haven't learned about yet. I love Ezekiel's vision of the resurrection, it is so detailed.

Since my daughter has a physical limitation from birth with her jaw structure and eating, I appreciate knowing with every fiber of my being that she will be whole physically in the resurrection, although she has been perfectly content with her conditon and is incredibly cheerful and optimistic.

I have also appreciated understanding that our departed loved ones are aware of us and are "solicitous for our welfare" as Brigham Young taught. Countless LDS personal experiences are shared that confirm this--not with a visit or vision, but with an awareness that they are still involved in their lives, though unseen.

One experience I have always loved and learned from is that related by David O McKay about the young man who was a railroad worker and fell under the train and was killed. His father was very busy in his work, and held in his grief. The mother related later that she heard her son who had died tell her to tell his father to stop worrying and grieving--that he was in a good place, and had a work to do there just as important as if he had lived. He also told her that he could not convey that message directly to his father because the father was too busy and too preoccupied to receive the message.

What a lesson in needing to be sensitive to the spiritual dimension of life, to not be too encumbered with preoccupations and incessant worries. Meditation is an important, beneficial aspect of life that is sometimes missed.

I am so deeply grateful for the Book of Mormon, for its rich testimony that the resurrection is real for all humankind, that Christ lives in very deed!

correction to previous post-

--let's say

too much nice wine tonight

Betty,
Well, when I spell ridiculous wrong, it gets posted twice. Ha ha! Still, the discussion is ridiculous. As far as scientology (did I spell that correctly? If not, spank me) goes, I think the story is ridiculous as any ---lets say christian. The only thing I can add is that their big story is not as far fetched as man-god Jesus, virgin birth, or resurrection.

PS, my failure to treat religeous organizations as proper nouns is intentional, not a spelling error.

As an agnostic (leaning towards atheism), I think that the LDS vision of an afterlife with its many levels of a celestial kingdom is just about as likely as the Roman Catholic (and most Protestants follow this) vision of a Trinity of three persons. If there is an afterlife, it is much more likely to be a much simpler existance than indicated by any of the gospels.

I find the 2nd question to be interesting. After my father's passing 6 years ago, my mom would for the first month or so hear pounding on the house roof. She always believed it was my late father (a construction worker in life) showing his anger at her for something or other that she did.

My mom related the above story to her youngest sister in my presence. After she told it, the youngest (who lost her husband in an automobile accident 20 years ago) told a story of how she would wake up in the weeks after her husband's death and see his figure in the bedroom closet looking for clothes. She got a jolt when she called out her late husband's name, and it turned out to be her son going through his father's things.

This scared my aunt, but it also made me think. We, and by extension our religions, often view ourselves as being at the center of the universe, and that our brains are always viewing the world truthfully and factually. However, the above story from my aunt made me wonder about that. It occurred to me that the reason that my aunt "thought" that she saw her late husband was that she wanted to see him. Her grief for his loss was so consuming that her mind when it saw her son looking through his father's clothes sent back to her the recognition of her husband. She wanted to see him again, and so she was ready to believe that the person she saw in her husband's closet was, in fact, her late husband.

I then went back and thought about my mom's story. I lived (and still live) with her, and on occasion, I also heard the pounding on the roof. After my mom began coping better with her grief, she began to notice that a small boy from next door often climbed up on to the roof of our house at night (I am totally blind so I would not have seen this). To this day (he moved away 4 years ago), we still don't know why he was up there. My mom still doesn't believe it, but my strong suspicion was and is that the noises that we heard shortly after my father's death were the neighbor boy's doing.

These incidents have also convinced me that our own emotions color what we hear and see.

No Jim M

it's

Ree-dick-you-lus

The discussion is rediculous.

The discussion is rediculous.

I think the second of the three questions--Have you ever been visited by the spirit of a dead relative or friend?--is flawed since it implies that all dead are spirits. From the LDS cannon, Doctrine & Covenants 129:1-3 states, "There are two kinds of beings in heaven, namely...resurrected beings...[and]...spirits...."

This agrees with the account of Matthew after Christ's resurrection: "The graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, and came out of their graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many." (Matthew 27:52-53)

Also after his resurrection, Christ appeared to his disciples and engaged in physical acts such as walking on the road to Emmaus, eating fish and honey comb, and allowing disciples to feel the prints in his hands.

As to the third question, whether "visions or visitations have any theological meaning," Latter-day Saints would have to say yes. Joseph Smith said that God the Father and Jesus Christ visited him, establishing that they were personal beings. I like the way Professor Terryl Givens said it:

"God’s physical form is not the point. That God has a heart that beats in sympathy with ours is the truth that catalyzes millions—that He feels real sorrow, rejoices with real gladness, and weeps real tears." ( http://speeches.byu.edu/reader/reader.php?id=10924 )

I believe Joseph Smith saw what he said he saw, and the resulting idea of a personal God is central to my faith.

Has anyone seen Henry? Hope he's ok. He's usually here by now.

Mr Otterson does seem correct that, by definition, a Christian should believe in Christ's incarnation and resurrection. "I am the resurrection and the life" etc.

Unitarians don't necessarily believe that, but none of us believe that Unitarians are Christians, do we?

One interesting question to me is:
How Elaborate a Structure of the Un Knowable Afterlife can a religion construct before it collapes of its own weight?

Mormons have an *incredibly complicated* schema for the afterlife. A science fiction writer could not have done a more thorough job than Joseph Smith did.

Reminds me of someone's Big Lie Theory. If you are going to make up a story, make it a whopper, with all kinds of details, cuz no one will think you could make all that up.

Ron Hubbard was going to be a science fiction writer, but he realized there was more money in religion.

I read the questions and the answers. I think that the questions fail to invoke one to being a better person, right here, right now (isn't that what one might interpret as "Christ-like"?). To me, the answers sound like words falling out the mouth of a politician. Now, I truly believe "to each their own", so I am merely responding, not critiquing. Personally, I believe in a God, I believe that I am NOT God - but that God lives in me (and all), and that each breath that I take is a gift. And because I believe that to keep something, you must give something away - I give of myself every single day. The more I give, the more I receive and THAT makes my life absolutely phenomenal! I mean, does anything else really matter?

Mr. Otterson,

Hmmm, but did Jesus really say the passages cited at http://scriptures.lds.org/en/tg/s/263??? Not according to many contemporary NT exegetes!!!

e.g. According to Professor JD Crossan, another On Faith panelist and NT exegete, Mark 15:37 and Luke 23:43 were fictional passages added to give some "zing" to the crucifixion.

Professor Crossan's take on Jesus' last days: (From Crossan and Watts book, Who is Jesus??)

“My best historical reconstruction would be something like this. Jesus was arrested during the Passover festival, most likely in response to his action in the Temple. Those who were closest to him ran away for their own safety. I do not presume that there were any high-level confrontations between Caiaphas and Pilate and Herod Antipas either about Jesus or with Jesus. No doubt they would have agreed before the festival that fast action was to be taken against any disturbance and that a few examples by crucifixion might be especially useful at the outset. And I doubt very much if Jewish police or Roman soldiers needed to go too far up the chain of command in handling a Galilean peasant like Jesus. It is hard for us to imagine the casual brutality with which Jesus was probably taken and executed. All those "last week" details in our gospels, as distinct from the brute facts just mentioned, are prophecy turned into history, rather than history remembered."

And citing passages from the Book of Mormon/?? Give us a break!!! Knowing the history of Joe Smith and his hallucinations about the "pwtfft", Moroni, puts the entire book on the myth/fiction pile.