Losing Distinctiveness: Sure Way to Oblivion

http://www.nowscape.com/mormon/hitler_temple_3.htm

Do you MORMONS still baptise dead Jews by proxy even though you promised us you wouldn't and have broken that promise many times over???

Do your "members" have to bow down like this to all visiting "general authorities"? Sounds like brainwashing...
THE CHURCH OF
JESUS CHRIST
OF LATTER-DAY SAINTS

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*** **** STAKE

Dear Brothers and Sisters,
**** *, 2008

We extend a warm invitation to each of you, along with friends and neighbors, to attend the
*** Stake Conference on Saturday, **** **th and Sunday, **** **th. We
are grateful to have President Boyd K. Packer, Acting President of the Quorum of the
Twelve Apostles. presiding over the Conference.
All meetings will be held in the stake center at **** *****, ****. The
general session of Stake Conference will begin at 10:00 a.m. on Sunday ****. A Priesthood leadership session will be held Saturday afternoon at 4:00 p.m. and
the Saturday evening session for all adults 18 years of age and older will begin at 7:00
p.m. We hope you will also join us at the Temple on Friday, **** **th for a chapel
session commencing at 6:30 p.m., followed by an endowment session at 7:00 p.m.
We invite you to prepare for Conference with your family by focusing on the following two
topics in family home evenings prior to Conference: (1) "His word ye shall receive, ·as if
from mine own mouth" (see D&C 21:1 - 6) ; and (2) "1made this my rule ; when the Lord
commands, do it." (see Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Joseph Smith). Suggested
lesson materials accompany this letter.
The doctrine of conferences, simply stated, is that the Lord has chosen conferences as the
forum to conduct His official business and reveal His will. We should attend conference
seeking personal revelation about our needs, both for ourselves and for our families .
Those needs may be spiritual or temporal, or both, for they are the same in the eyes of the
Lord.
If we do not attend conference we forfeit the privilege and right to receive the personal
revelation we otherwise could receive. When we attend conference with faith we are
saying: "I believe the Lord will help me. I will listen and receive His direction and help."
We encourage you to participate in Conference with open minds and humble hearts,
hungering and thirsting for answers from heaven. We promise that as you do so, you will
be filled!

Sincerely,

***Stake presidency

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Sustaining Church Leaders
Objective: Instill a respect for church leadership posiUons and those who hold them.
Understand that as members of the church we commit to support and sustain those who hold
leadership positions and priesthood keys
Opening Song: "We Thank Thee, a God, For A Prophet' Hymns pg 19
Scripture: D&C' 21:4" "Wherefore, meaning the church, thou shalt give heed unto all his words
and commandments which he shall give unto you as he receiveth them, walking in all holiness
before me: For his word ye shall received, as if from mine own mouth, in all patience and faith.
For by doing these th ings the gates of hell shall not prevail against you; yea, and the Lord God
will disperse the powers of darkness from before you, and cause the heavens to shake for your
good, and his name' s glory.'
Lesson:
We sustain many decisions in the Church , but most often we are asked to sustain the callings of
Church leaders. Once 'we have acknowledged our support and approval, we should continue to
sustain our leaders, We can do this by supporting their decisions, remembering them in our
prayers, following their counsel, and willingly doing what they ask us to do. President Gordon B.
Hinckley has taught: "The procedure of sustaining is much more than a ritualistic raising of the
hand. It is a commitment to uphold, to support, to assist those who have been selected" (in
Conference Report, Apr. 1995,70; or Ensign, May 1995, 51).
We can have confidence in our Church leaders because we know that important callings are
directed by the Holy 'Spirit (see.D&C 52:1). Those in positions of leadership are not placed there
to exerdse authority but to'direct with kindness and serve with love. The Lord expects us to follow
and uphold His chosen leaders because they are authorized 10 act and speak for Him (see D&C
1:38).
Relate the following story by Elder Boyd K Packer and ask family members what it teaches about
authority.
On one occasion he [Karl G Maeser] was going with a group of young missionaries across the'
alps. They were crossing a high mountain pass on foot. There were long sticks stuck into the
snow of the glacier to mark the path so that travelers could find their way safely across the glacier
and down the mountain: on the other side.
"When they reached the summit, Brother Maeser wanted to leach the young elders a lesson. He
stopped at the pinnacle of the mountain and pointed to those sticks that they had followed . And
he said. 'Brethren , behold the priesthood of God. They are just common old sticks. but it's the
position that counts. Follow them and you will surely be safe. Stray from them and you will surely
be lost:' And so it is in the Church. We are called to leadership positions and given the power of
. the priesthood. And 'we are just common old sticks. but the position we are given counts. It is
separate and apart from us.. but while we.hold it, we hold it." (" It Is the Position That Counts," New
Era, June 1977, p. 51 .)
Discuss with your family whether we are obligated to respect the authority of someone we do not
like as a person. As you discuss this question, help your family recognize that our leaders, who
are not perfect, will be more successful when we respect and support them. Talking against them
and failing to sustain them only makes them less effective.

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Tell the following story
Bcother Taylor was a shy man. He had a strong testimony of the gospel, but he was not very
confident about discussing it with others. He had never finished high school and felt embarrassed
that his knowledge of the scriptures was lacking He was assigned as home teacher to several
families. He visited them faithfuily every month and made extra visits at birthdays, In times of
illness, and whenever he felt he could be of help.
Then Brother Taylor was assigned tovisit a new family in the ward. After his first visit, the family
discussed their new home teacher.
"What a strange man,' remarked Sister Brown.
:'Yes," laughed the oldest son. "I thought I'd die when he kept mispronouncing words in that
scripture he read,'"
"I can even read better than that," added nine-year-old Susan.
"I doubt we can expect much help from him,' concluded Brother Brown.
Ask the following questions:
• • How will this family's attitude weaken Brother Taylor as a home teacher?
• • What are some ways they could sustain him that would also strengthen him?
Discuss possible ways of handling the following situations:
• 1. Your parents have asked you not to do something that you want to do very mUCh. They
think it is unsafe,but many of your friends have done it.
• 2. You do not enjoy your present. priesthood adviser. He is l1ever well prepared and is not
an interesting teacher.
• 3. Your new bishop isn't easy to talk to. You wish he were more like your former bishop
who was friendly to everyone.
("Authority," Family Home Evening Resource Book, (1997, 175)
Activity 1: Gather 15 paper cups. On five cups write members of the church. Line them up in a
row. On four cups write auxiliary leaders (RS Pres., YM Pres., Primary Pres., Elders Quorum
Pres., etc.). Stack those cups on the 1" five (like a pyramid). On three cups write the BishopriC.
Stack those on the four cups. On two cups write Stake Presidency. Stack those on the 3 cups.
On the last cup write The Prophet, Apostles and other General Authorities. Stack that cup on top
Discuss how the leaders at the. top need the support of those below them to be successful. Show
that the pyramid of cups falls when the supporting cups are removed.
Activity 2: Choose a leader from your ward or stake and write them a note thanking them for all
the work they do to help gUide and lead your ward/stake.

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Faith To Obey
"I made this my rule; when the Lord commands, do it" Joseph Smith

Purpose:
To help our family understand that when we have faith and obey the Lord's commands, we show our love for Him. In
return, He will protect and help us accomplish all that is asked.
Song
"Keep the Commandments' (Child ren's Songbook p. 146 and Hymnal #303)
Scripture Mastery Thoughts:
• Alma 57 : 21 : Yea. and they did 'obey and observe to perform every word of command with exactness; yea.
and even according to their faith it was done unto them; and I did remember the words which they said unto
me that their "mothers had taught them.
• D&C 132: 53: For I am the Lord thy God, and ye shall obey my voice; and I give unto my servant Joseph that
he shall be made ruler over many things; for he hath been "faithfUl over a few things, and from hencefol lh I
will strengthen him.
• ObEldience is the most genuine way to show our love for God. (Howard W. Hunter)
Opening Prayer:
Activity:
Hide 16 small stones somewhere in the room, wrap each in a clue to find the next stone. Make sure the stones are not
easily visible and require help in order to find. Note: If you don't have time to create the clues. another option would
be to take turns hiding a stone and letting the person who hid the stone (or stones) answer yes or no questions about
where the stone is hidden.
Lesson:
Wnat did we have to do in order to find the stones? We needed to have fa ith that the clues that were given would help
us find the stones. We also needed to take action on our part and obey/follow the directions in order to reach our goal
of finding all the stones.
~(Ether 3:4-13):
Have the family sit in a circle and place all 16 stones they found in the center of the circle.
Ask your family: "Do you know another reason why we found these 16 stones tonight?"
There is a special story in Ether that also talked about 16 stones. Jared and his brother were very righteous. but they
lived at a time of great wickedness. When they sought the Lord for gUidance. the Lord told them He desired to send
them to a new la'nd of promise. That land is now called America. The brother of Jared had faith and chose to obey the
Lord. He gathered his family and his friends. They took their ftocks, birds, fish, honeybees, and seeds of every kind.
After they had traveled for four years, the Lord came in a cloud and talked to the brother of Jared. The Lord told the
brother of Jared that he needed to humble himself and pray. So Jared listened again and obeyed. The Lord then told
the brother of Jared to build eight boats (like submarines) for their journey to the promised land. He gave them
instructions to make the boats small and l i gh~. After the boats were finished , though, the brother of Jared was
concerned because there was no light in the boats. The brother of Jared had enough faith to bring 16 small stones to
the Lord. He asked the Lord to touch the stones with his finger and make them shine. Because of his great faith, the
brother of Jared was blessed and he saw the finger of the Lord as he touched the stones. The Lord then blessed him
again and showed him his whole body, teaching hilT: that we are each created in the image of God. The brother of
Jared then obeyed and placed the stones in each of the barges. With the Lord's help, 344 days later (almost a Whole
year) they reached the promised land.

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Conclusion:

Faith requires action on our part. The Lord answered the brother of Jared's prayer.after he had obeyed the Lord by
building eight boats and prepared to follow the Lord's command to travel to the promised land. The brother of Jared
also showed his faith by providing the stones and asking the Lord to touch each one.
How can we liken this to our family?
1. Make a list of some of the commands the Lord asks us to do. (pay our tithing. missionary work, be honest, strive to
learn and develop our talents, serve others, Temple work... )
2. Choose onE and then decide an action you need to take in order to obey the Lord's command. Set a goal this week
to do that action and commit to pray to ask for our Father in Heaven's help as you strive to do His will.
T he~e are many voices telling us what to do each day. We need to remember to ask our Father in Heaven for help as
we set goals and make decisions. As we read his instructions in the scriptures and lislen for promptings from the Holy
Ghost, then obey in faith, we will be guided and protected as we journey through this life.
As we obey the Lord's commands and have faith we can be like the stones in the story. The Lord will touch us and
help us radiate the light of the'gospel. We will find grea:er joy and happiness in our lives as VIe ask for direction and
obey the Lord 's will for us in faith. If we fo llow Him in fa ith, we can be assured that he will protect and help us, (Note:
For smaller children explain this principle of happiness through obedience in terms they can understand, like how
happy they feel when they obey their parents and then receiving a big hug.) There is joy in doing what the Lord asks
us to do.
Closing Prayer
Dessert: Banana Boat Sundaes. Remind your family of the story of Jared building boats by creating your own
banana boat ice cream sundaes for dessert. If you have time put 16 yellow M&M's on each to remind you of the
lighted stones.

Parker,

Sometime when you are not thumping the OT, NT and Book of Mormon, you might want to read about the real Jesus as analyzed by contemporary NT exegetes who have scrutinzed all the pertinent scripture documents from the first and second century CE.

http://wiki.faithfutures.org/index.php/215_In_Capernaums_Synagogue

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/theories.html

And keep in mind, the John who wrote John's gospel was not John the Apostle but was a big fan of Jesus and could be considered The Great Embellisher of said Jesus in his Project, Raising to Diety Status or Fad Out Fast!!!!

Henry,
Thanks for your kind and thoughtful reply. I think Dr. Willard is actually still every bit as pleased to count you among his posterity as when you were a youth, what with the love of people and of great literary truths you have and inspire others with. We don't all have to plow the same ground to find treasures worth having and worth sharing. Kudos to you. I'll look for that book.

Concerned,
Christ veiled many of His messages in meanings that some didn't understand, and He did so deliberately, allowing a learning process that is "precept upon precept, line upon line; here a little, and there a little." (Isaiah 28:13) Always, he "taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes." (Matthew 7:29) He still and always says, "Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come into him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Rev. 3:20) How can we "sup"? By learning from Him, and hearkening "diligently" unto Him (Isaiah 55). But we have to be willing to learn--He most certainly will not force knowledge on us in any way (unlike what is often done in the name of teaching or attempting to). His light "shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehended it not." (John 1:5) It will ever be so. We can go towards the light, or we can choose not to. The choice is yours.

ItTakesFaith:

Thanks for your thoughtful reply. I believe your experience is very common among a great many people.

I expect you're a great neighbor to have around.

Good luck on your journey!

sorry last post is mine forgot to put that in.

Jeff p- Thank you for the response and I don't take that as an insult. I agree that anyone can live a decent meaningful life outside the context of anything. Just like there are those in who do not. That is what is wrong with our Mormon culture especially in Utah. Many of my fellow Mormons tend to separate themselves from everyone else. Even within the church there is separation or clicks like you have in high school. And they are very damaging. They are in direct opposition to the gospel I have been taught. But as people have weaknesses you will find them.
The last place I lived did not have that same Utah Mormon culture. It was great. a neighbors house burned down one night and I am not sure of their religious affiliation or anything because it didnt mater. Everyone reached out and helped. My friends baby drowned and the reponse from the community was incredible it was from everyone not one group alone.
On the other hand I had many neighbors who wouldn't associated with us because we went to church. It didn't matter what church. It was a great showing of that weakness in us all when because we don't believe as someone else we think we are better and don't associate with them. Many of these neighbors where good people and distinct in their own way yet sadly had the same group mentality you spoke of.
The mentality in that state among that few was incredible. It must be how it feels being a non believer in Utah. I don't mean to bash non religious people because it is certainly a weakness suffered by all but my experience with that group in the last place I lived was by far the worst of any place I have lived.

From my observation there are groupings everywhere. Among religions, groups, etc. They are all damaging when they single themselves out and separate from everyone else. I don't think the cause of this separation is caused by being religious or what ever but because it is a human weakness. I have been among a group of Mormons that lived the gospel yet were not separated from the community. It is because they lived the gospel and most respected them for that. They were part of the community not a group that only helped them selves.

Hi Parker

thanks for the interesting response.

i certainly believe in learning and progression in this world. though i never got much better at writing plays.

if i believed in a Next World, I would definitely agree that we would have MUCH more room for progression. for one thing, we'd have infinitely more time.

on the Authority point, have you read The Gnostic Gospels by Elaine Pagels? She talks about the disputes in early christianity about who had authority to baptise etc, and those who thought that one could have a direct relationship with God without the intervention of the Priest. kinda like Luther argued 1400 years later. You might find it interesting.

cheers,
Henry

(Dr Willard never liked me)

Parker,

Hmmm, you noted: "Christ said are you willing to learn?"

Scripture reference(s)????? Or is that something Moroni "dropped" on you?? Sounds more like something that the original hominids would say as they were dropping from the trees 60,000 years ago. https://www3.nationalgeographic.com/genographic/

Henry,
Thanks for all of your thoughts, and the many truths they contain. If you happened to believe in the Biblical example of Namaan, who didn't want to bathe in the River Jordan to be healed, but finally agreed when he could understand the logic of it, then imagine this:

A Hottentot who was an accomplished doctor comes to the United States and wants to begin to practice medicine. Does he/she or does he/she not need a license? But they are eminently qualified! Couldn't they bypass the system? What if they say, "no way--not a fair system"? Such a simple requirement--most would comply, no? How is saying "You've done so much marvelous good with your life, with what you knew and how you loved people and helped them improve their lives; will you enter a covenant relationship with Christ who can help you reach even higher levels of knowledge and love for others?" Some might say, "I don't know about any of that." Christ asks, "Are you willing to learn?"

Some may not be, but I think most would and will be. We're just talking about entering a new phase of learning, without all the mish-mash of half-truths and speculations. Take Mormonism out of the equation, and insert the above. The question of "license" or "authority" doesn't take away someone's identity--it only adds to their identity, and says, "You've done great things. Here ahead of you are infinitely greater things for you to learn about and participate in." More of that will happen in the spirit world than in this life, not detracting from anything anyone has done to improve this world, just adding to it.

PS to Parker and Kurt and Jim

the Mormons are the same as the Catholics and the Muslims in believing that their church is the Only True Way to the highest salvation.

I don't mean to single the Mormons out in this regard. About a third of the world has this kind of belief.

Who knows who's right?
the only thing we know is
Catholics, Mormons, Muslims, and Me can't ALL be right.

Some of us (except me of course) have to be wrong.

hi parker

let me try to be clear:
Mormons believe that in the afterlife, only those who have been baptized by a priesthood holder can enter the CK.

I am fine with anyone who wants to believing that. Kurt and Jim don't seem to acknowledge that this is what Mormonism is based on as basic doctrine.

I am not trying to convince them or you not to believe it. I am just trying to get them to admit that they DO believe it.

I can see the reasonableness of limiting the authority of baptism to priesthood holders, were I to believe as you do in the necessity of baptism.

I think tribalism in religion, in the sense that Patel uses the term, is dangerous and not ideal. I don't think that my opinion precludes my approving of people who like Jane Austen novels getting together at a convention (though better they would read henry james novels)). And of course, Mormons and all others are free to form voluntary associations in this great country of ours.

Yes, clearly Mormonism accepts anyone, and now even blacks can hold the priesthood. and within the belief system of mormonism, which all are free to accept or reject, there is an orderly meritocracy for membership in the Celestial Kingdom.

From outside the Mormon belief system, I look at the Mormon belief that a non-slacker obedient mormon has a chance to "be like God" because he was baptized,and an extraordinary non Mormon who does not wish to be baptized can not have that chance, and find that an unacceptable belief system. But that is clearly just my opinion.

My point, again, to Kurt, was that this IS the mormon belief system: only baptized "mormons" can attain the highest degree of salvation. and again, it is a orderly and consistent belief system.

I see loads of valuable Order in the universe, outside of the Mormon belief system. I do not oppose or disbelieve in order.

As far as human potential goes: in this life i have seen great things accomplished by humans (including myself, Henry James). I don't think Mormons have accomplished greater things than non-mormons. We have evidence on this point.

You believe in the afterlife men can become Gods. I don't. In that respect, you have greater faith in "human" potential after we are dead. While we are alive, we have equal belief in human potential.

And again, I don't think, in most cases, it makes much difference what one believes about the afterlife as long as one loves one's neighbor as oneself in this one.

Peace and Love to you
Henry

Henry,
'Had to laugh at your last line. You're one of a kind.

There are so many ironies in this dialogue. I'll point out a few. We had great input from a physician, a thoughtful writer named "Jeff P". I'd like to write prescriptions for some of the medications my children have to take, instead of seeing a doctor who has the license to do that. After all, why see the doctor if we can see the symptoms that say they need a refill? A license implies a doctor has passed classes and passed tests to be licensed, and knows what he/she is doing. But following your logic about the priesthood and baptism, the logic seems to imply that anyone who wants to say "I can do that" should be able to. The citizens collectively grant the authority to governments to license doctors. Are you saying anyone should be able to have that authority, by saying they do? Same goes for teachers, attorneys, ambassadors--why not chuck the whole system of authority and say "anyone who wants to do whatever can do so, no questions asked?" (I personally would not want to live under such a system of untrustability and chaos.)

You don't happen to believe in the need for baptism, but there are those of us who feel just as strongly about the authority involved there as about any other authority granted within society.

As to "tribalism", I see tribalism on many fringes of society as similarly minded people band together, so are you saying "no banding together allowed"? What about the social groups you advocate?

Ironic that the real gospel of Jesus Christ brings people together from all walks of life, from all nations under the sun, and says "you're all equal before God and before humankind, now work together and become a united body with no one thinking any other person is better than another." (And by the way, please bring the truths you know with you, so we can all be helped by them, as we truly can be.)

Some of us have outgrown the misconceptions we picked up as children when we thought Mormonhood was better than peoplehood. We're comfortable with the thought that "no man is an island...each is a part of the main".

I echo Jim's comment that the Celestial Kingdom is not for slackers, it's for doers who are so motivated and so humble and selfless that they are willing to learn what it takes to govern righteously, otherwise they most certainly need not apply. By the way, it is not gender-specific. Of course God is not going to keep righteous Jews or whomever out of that Kingdom, unless they are unwilling to make and keep covenants, but again, we're talking about being granted authority to govern--should it be a willy-nilly system when the stakes are so high?

Do you not see order in the universe? Does it not imply that order may be something important in the scheme of things, even for Unitarians?

We know so little here in this speck of eternity. You have great love for people. I would imagine you like the thoughts of John Donne. I just happen to think people have a lot more potential than you do. I mean an infinitely lot more potential--including yourself. I suspect Dr. Willard agrees with me. Peace to you.

Any connections with Memphis, Tennessee?

Jim

I ALMOST entirely agree with you, and appreciate the fairness and generosity of spirit that you exhibit.

The fact remains that
Mormon doctrine says:

Unless one is baptized by a priesthood holder and accepts the Mormon gospel (which Mormons will tell you is simply "God's Word," though the Muslims will not agree with the Mormons))

that person HAS NO CHANCE of being admitted to the "highest degree of glory," the Celestial Kingdom.

Mormon = Chance to enter the CK
Non Mormon/non-baptized = NO chance to enter CK

Love
Henry

Kurt, mon Frere,

You sound like GBH when asked if men could become Gods, and he said "I don't know that we teach that" when the quote "as man is God once was, and as God is Man may become" was said about 13,000 times in both Hinckley's and my church life.

Of course Mormons don't believe that Baptism *by itself* is *sufficent* to achieve the Celestial Kingdom. But it is *necessary* - I trust you see the difference.

My point is that a baptized Mormon of average intelligence and ability and character who pays his tithing and gets married in the temple can go to the Celestial Kingdom, even though you or I wouldn't want him to change a lightbulb in our house,

while an UN-baptized saint with GREAT character and ability, like, say, Gandhi or Martin Luther, CAN NOT go to the CK and have a chance to become a God cuz they ain't been baptized.

(and i KNOW that nice non-mormons go to three-star hotel equivalent Terretrial kingdoms rather than being damned, and why shouldn't they be happy with that?)

No. Mormons aren't JUST judged by "who we become." they are judged by "who we become" and Whether we were baptized (just like the Catholics, incidentally). That IS mormon doctrine. My great grandfather was in the jail with Joseph when he was "assassinated", so my folks got it from the horses mouth.

None of your quotes about hypocrites or departees change this doctrinal fact.

I know and have said many times that Mormons are Good People (as are catholics and muslims and atheists and unitarians and ....).

I am happy for you that your church makes you happy.

That is the crazy part. We are going to have a whole new crop of mediocre Gods, according to the Mormons.

Henry:

The beauty of God's plan is that it covers all of His children- past, present, and future. As I believe you have pointed out elsewhere, the vast majority of mankind adopt the religion of their upbringing. I cannot comprehend a God that would judge and award his children by something that is largely out of our control. In my opinion, our reward in heaven will not be entirely based on whether we were Mormon, Catholic, Muslim, Jew, or of some other belief in this life. Instead, I believe that all will have an equal opportunity in this life or in the next to learn and to accept the fulness of the gospel.

That's not to say that we ignore this life with the thought of adopting truth in the next life. We each have a conscience, and I believe we need to do the best we can in this life, whatever our circumstance may be, to follow what our conscience and heart tell us is right and true. Only God knows our hearts.

Hey Henry,

I just popped back in here for a second and saw your posts. What you describe as Mormon beliefs isn't something that I'm familiar with. Mormons believe that hypocritical Mormons go down south with anyone who doesn't follow the teachings of Christ. There is nothing saving in baptism by itself, only if we then live by the covenants we make. It would be an unjust world indeed if a scoundrel who happens to be Mormon makes it to heaven while everyone else gets a kink in their necks pointing him out to their friends in confused disbelief. Isaiah talked about having "neck [like] iron" (Isaiah 48:4), but I'm certain that's not the kind of soreness he was referring to.

In The Book of Mormon, the prophet Alma talked about what we carry with us into the next life - and he taught that we take more than just our bodies: "the SOUL shall be restored... [and] ALL things shall be restored to their proper and perfect frame" (Alma 40:23). Another prophet taught that "the wicked shall remain as though there had been no redemption made, except it be for the loosing of the bands of death.... even as we now are at this time; and we shall be brought to stand before God, knowing even as we know now, and have a bright recollection of all OUR guilt (Alma 11:41, 43).

Mormons are judged by God just like every other person - based on who we become. I said that I'm not better than anyone else based upon what church I belong to, and that's the truth. I promise it's not some kind of warm fuzzy rhetoric, but the substance of who I am. And that includes in the next life. If I didn't live a life here that correlated with how God taught me to live, then I would find a "rock, and hide... in the dust, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty (Isaiah 2:10)".

Christ talked about people with an attitude of self-righteousness based solely on membership and 'church-related work' in the New Testament. Each day is a trial to live right, a moment at a time. If I don't live up to my knowledge and responsibility, when I cross over to the next side, the words I hear will surely not be, "Come unto me ye blessed, for behold, your works have been the works of righteousness" (Alma 5:16). No. Not likely. Instead, I will disappointedly, but not unexpectedly, hear Him say, "I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work[ed] iniquity" (Matthew 7:23). Even if I had been a Mormon. Joseph Smith made a comment back in 1843 that I have to think God agrees with: "I love that man better who swears a stream as long as my arm yet deals justice to his neighbors and mercifully deals his substance to the poor, than the long, smooth-faced hypocrite."

I rely totally and completely upon the atonement of the Savior to cleanse me from my countless mistakes (Isaiah 1:18), but don't plan on being there if I'm a Christian, or a Mormon, in name only.

Mormons believe in becoming good people, and living by as much truth as God gives us. We try to share that approach with everybody, and if it's a lifestyle of living that others don't want, then we remain peculiar in our desire to be "faithful servant[s]" (Matthew 25:21). It's unity in that type of purpose that "knits" us together, you might say, as one people - all be we a minority (Colossians 2:19; Mosiah 18:21).

I'm so grateful for the 'iron rod' (1 Nephi 11:25) of sorts that the scriptures and personal direction from God give me.

I am a Mormon, and it's something that makes me happy. Really happy.

~ Kurt Manwaring ~

http://mormonconversation.blogspot.com

Jim
you are trapped in your own frame, your own paradigm.

your arguments only make sense if one accepts the postulates of Mormonism.

If i am a Jew, or a secular humanist, who doesn't believe in Joseph Smith and his visions,

i consider the Mormon belief that

a Mormon of so-so character and ability will go to something called the Celestial Kingdom where Men (not women) will have the opportunity to become Gods

and a Jew or atheist of exceptional character and ability who refuses to be baptised into the Mormon faith
will NOT have an opportunity to become a God within the Mormon paradigm,

I say to myself,
that's sure a Crazy paradigm.

Remember: we don't accept your version of God (or Joseph Smith's, to be more accurate).

But Henry, God excludes no one from His blessings. In fact, he wants to bless us all, but being a God of order, he abides by law too, and if one chooses to seek truth and to abide by it and another chooses to not follow whatever truth he/she has received, God logically cannot give both the same blessing.

The choice really is ours, and we determine our own fate. The celestial kingdom awaits anyone that wants to live the celestial law.

And, He has prepared a glory for all, and even the lowest kingdom will surpass our current understanding.

Kurt - thanks for your generously put post.

Unfortunately, there are a few places where it differs from the Mormon Faith as I was taught it for 19 years (and as LDS.org describes it today).

You write
"While Christ may have a monopoly on salvation, the Mormons have never claimed to have a similar relationship over truth."

Mormons have always claimed to be
1. "the ONLY true church" (sounds like monopoly to me)
2. the ONLY church that knows that God lives on Kolob, that there are three degrees of heaven.
3. the ONLY possessor of the Priesthood authority necessary to baptize in the name of Jesus, which sacrament is

Necessary to achieve the HIGHEST level of salvation (the Celestial Kingdom). Only Mormons (or if you prefer, those who have been baptized by a Priesthood holder that the Mormons accept as legitimate)
will achieve the highest level of salvation.

So, Gandhi won't be there.
But Joe Schmoo from Idaho (who is my cousin) will be.

You end with the lovely statement
"But I don't think that makes me better than anyone else. What makes someone good is not the church they belong to, but the way they live their lives."

Until we get to heaven.

Love
Henry

E Patel starts his current column here thusly:

Tribal Religion, Transcendent Religion

There is a story about a Christian minister living abroad during World War II. His congregation sends him money so that he can return home for Christmas. When he doesn’t come back, they ask him why. He says that he used the money to help a group of Jews escape Hitler’s death camps and flee to safety.

“But they’re not even Christian,” writes one member of his congregation.

“Yes, I know,” the minister responds. “But I am.”

(i urge you to read the whole thing)

his point: tribal religion has the potential to destroy the world.
transcendent (of tribes) religion has the potential to make the word better.

I am a Mormon, and I think that it's important for every people to be peculiar (Titus 2:14), to have things about them that are unique.

While Christ may have a monopoly on salvation, the Mormons have never claimed to have a similar relationship over truth.

I think that sometimes it's easy to get caught up in details, and forget what the process of life is all about: "becoming." Becoming good people; trying to live the teachings taught by the Savior and incorporate them into who we are.

Mormons are just as susceptible to the trials of life as anyone else, but it is the gospel of Jesus Christ that gives us the tools we need to deal with the difficult times.

I don't think that Mormons are trying to "conform" to mainstream anything, but merely approach people in the way that makes most sense to them. That's the way that Jesus did His teaching, and we try to emulate everything we do after Him - including the way we talk to people. Now, that doesn't mean at all that mistakes aren't made - sometimes even bad ones. But when that happens, we pick up, and move on. Mormonism is equivalent to Christianity in that we believe we can change our lives around, repent, and become better, cleaner, newer people - everyday.

We love truth and goodness for what it is, no matter where it is found. Joseph Smith said that the fundamental principles of our religion are "... Jesus Christ, that he died, was buried, and rose the third day, and ascended into heaven."

But the gospel of Jesus Christ, and His life itself is of little use if it can't be applied and emulated. Joseph Smith finished that quote by saying, "But in connection with these, we believe in the gift of the Holy Ghost, the power of faith, the enjoyment of the spiritual gifts according to the will of God, the restoration of the house of Israel, and the final triumph of truth." Those are the appendages. A hand does little good without fingers, and fingers can't be used without a hand. Or, as John recorded Jesus saying: "I am the vine, ye are the branches" (John 15:5).

Truth has always been a critcal issue when it comes to understanding what to incorporate into your life, and who you are. But again, we have no claim on truth; it's available to anybody who seeks it out. We do, believe, however, that there is much truth we can offer to other people. When people convert to "Mormonism" from other religions, they're not asked to leave a single grain of truth behind, but to bring it all with them and let us help them get even more.

I love being a Mormon! It provides me with an identity, a sense of purpose; and it provides a framework for understanding my relationship with Christ.

If you're interested in seeing the way a normal Mormon views the world, and sees the hand of God in each day, logon to this blog I have setup to try and share that way of life. My posting on January 8, 2008, "Hooked on Truth" might be a revealing insight into how Mormons view this new "pseudo-Christian" label that seem to have been given us.

http://mormonconversation.blogspot.com

I am a Mormon, and proud to be one. But I don't think that makes me better than anyone else. What makes someone good is not the church they belong to, but the way they live their lives.

~ Kurt Manwaring ~

It Doesn't Take Faith

We have overwhelming evidence these days that there is no difference in the moral behavior between

people who believe in God
and
people who don't.

Mormons are good people. My secular friends are good people. They are just as good, as far as I can see, and plenty of scientific evidence backs this up.

In my personal opinion, I would consider it a moral deficiency to believe that I had the Whole Complete Only Truth about life in the hereafter, which truth no one can possibly know, and that others don't.

Among other things, as Jeff P pointed out in his unimpeachible and sensible post, it is exclusionary and borders on the (modestly) triumphalist.

In fact, that is a big reason i no longer am a Mormon. I couldn't believe "we mormons" were the "only true church." and it made me feel morally dishonest to maintain it since i couldn't believe it.

ItTakesFaith:
Thank YOU for the reply!

I would be willing to wager large sums of money that you would always have been the altruistic person you already are, regardless of your Mormonism. If you had happened to grow up in Israel, I bet you'd be a marvelous and altruistic Jewish woman. If you were from Iraq, you'd be an altruistic Muslim woman. If you had no "belief" system, I suspect you'd be a loving, world-contributing atheist. (There are many of those, despite the usual characterizations.)

Consider the qualities that you describe in your post regarding the less-than-desirable behaviors as being attributed to lack-of-following-the-faith, but instead that they are found in all people all over the world, faithful or not.

I actually think your care and concern about "the world" in general transcends and happens despite the collective "distinctiveness" that is preached by our "creeds." Individual distinctiveness is a wonder and a great thing. I have less confidence in group-distinctiveness, as you know.

I agree wholeheartedly with your assessment of the "pressures" of living in Utah suffered by Mormon women, having been a physician there and seeing first-hand the "situations" they have to face. I'm curious, though. Would you agree, after having lived in several other states, that the "heathen" can live decent, meaningful lives outside of the context of majority religious dogma? (Don't take this as an insult.)

Parker notes the great helpfulness of his fellow members when his child was born prematurely.

As the son of the best Relief Society President in history, I can testify that such things happen all the time, and are among the many wonderful things about being part of a loving community. Mormons are not the only ones with such communities, but there is generally a strong connection that members feel to each other.

Parker talks about my experiences being different. They weren't in regard to what he is talking about. The overwhelming majority of my Mormon friends and relatives are/were lovely people.

I differ in my beliefs about God and Heaven, but that rarely makes a difference in how good a person is.

Henry

Jeff p- thank you for your comments. We certainly need a different view towards our fellow man.

However I disagree that we don't need faith. It is my faith along with prayer and all those other things, that has led me to these conclusions and feelings toward my fellowman and the world as a whole. I also think it is the lack of these things among my fellow Mormons that causes them to separate themselves from everyone else. They forget we are taught that God is no respecter of persons. We are no exception even if we believe we have the whole truth.

There are so many good people who are not Mormon. Many who are different and distinct in there own way.

As far as the use of stimulant meds in Utah we just visited there and yikes in is not the same as living outside of Utah. I have my own opinion about the use of meds because it is not the same as outside of Utah. They are trying to dang hard to live in two worlds. It is the ultimate keep up with the family next door. As a woman you have to be the perfect everything etc, etc, etc. no wonder they are depressed. It is not like that in the other 4 states I have lived in. I dont believe it is because they are Mormons but rather that they are trying to be like everyone else and not living the things they are taught. The gospel is not about houses and money and the amount and kind of handouts you made. It is all about show there. It should be more personal. Then they would probably be less depressed.

ItTakesFaith--you're well along on the road toward a healthy humanistic world view. Congrats!

I think you've observed the all-too-human faults of us all, and it's particularly hard to acknowledge them in an organization which is essentially defined by being somehow very different from "the world." For those who would build up the distinction, I'd advise much caution with judgment.

I'd want you to consider one thing more: it might not take faith. Faith might not be a virtue, despite what we've been taught our whole lives within a Christian tradition.

It might instead take some seasoned acknowledgement that the way forward won't be distinctive religious baggage and dogma, exclusion and demonizing of "others" or "the world" or "the lost," (even though we might decrease our cognitive dissonance by proclaiming that we keenly care about all of those who are "damned"), family home night or the teaching/praying hours (even though they are personally nurturing). To the extent that our teaching separates us from others, or somehow condemns "the world," I would argue that it is destructive.

I disagree with Mr. Otterson precisely because of his need of "distinction." It separates me from you, and from many other good and helpful people all over our nation and world.

Finally a note to Laura regarding "families are forever" theology: I'm happy the thought gives you some comfort, but keep in mind the myriad unhappy marriages and broken homes that happen to normal, intelligent people. They are not "lost" people, they are human beings. Additionally, (and I don't say this to be a smart-__s, but if things were as wonderful as you portray among the LDS family-oriented folks in general, Utah wouldn't probably have the highest use of anti-depressants in the world, nor would there be so many kids --I would bet again, the highest numbers in the world per capita-- on stimulant medications...) Consider that families can be very happy without the eternal family blessing.

Parker

thank you for the thanks. I hold out hope for my ward then. we have about 50 percent attendance and some months 10 percent home teaching ect. I unfortunately had my daughter early and received little or no help because my husband was inactive and few people interacted with me. we did receive help thanks to family and our Heavenly Father who blessed us in many ways. It is great when you are in the kind of ward you are in. It is a struggle for the rest of us who are not. I do what I can but everyone is to busy or whatever to even let me visit them and many dont or wont fullfill a calling. It is a crazy world. I hope they wake up before it is to late or to many people are lost. my non mormon neighbors are more intrested in serving their fellow man then many of my ward members. I dont mean to sound bitter. but some times it is really hard. And because we try everyone thinks we can do it all. and well we cant. I cant save them or their kids. I wish what you have could be the norm.

Concerned,
I'll admit that I'm tired of trying to reason with you, as it appears many others are also in other places as I read the exchanges. But if you really want a discussion about your misconceptions, I'll try and briefly help you out over on another line:
http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/michael_otterson/2007/12/no_artificial_distinctions/all_comments.html

Have as good a day as you can within your chosen frame of mind.

Laura,

i think there may be some confusion here. if i recall correctly, and granted it has been a while, the stuff taught in the temple includes promises and covenants to follow the teachings of the temple. there are many proscriptions in the mormon church, including things like booze and the use of naughty words. but, the temple includes covenants where people promise to do stuff, not proscriptions to not do stuff, no?

beyond that laura. i dont think i really get your point here. couples with a shared spiritual life are going to be close. that is certainly not distinct or unique to mormonism.

i think there is some uniqueness in that mormons believe that only MORMON families can be together forever and that a wayward child, or one that doesnt do all that is required to go to the temple, is essentially shooting a middle finger at the family and choosing not to be a long-term member of the family. that is unique and distinct. but, the closeness of a couple with shared values is common and encouraged in many religions.

Parker,

You noted: " I happen to live in a ward where attendance is at around 85% and home teaching and visiting teaching are likewise....."

Hmmm, not enough of the Joe Smith Con Game taught in Utah public schools??

And could not the " Smith kibutz" or the "Smith commune" be substituted for ward?? Being nice to each other is nice but it does not change the fact that Mormonism's foundations are based on the hallucinations and/or outright con game of one Joe Smith.

ItTakesFaith and Laura,
As an interested reader, thanks for your comments. I happen to live in a ward where attendance is at around 85% and home teaching and visiting teaching are likewise, plus my family was the recipient of incredible help from so many when our daughter was born prematurely with severe breathing and eating abnormalities. Our gratitude for all the unselfish help really cannot be adequately expressed, even now ten years later. Also, the non-LDS in our area are included and welcomed in neighborhood activities and they attend as friends. This can and does happen.

I have appreciated Henry James', Mayan's, and Sister Mary Lisa's comments, especially in the tone expressed here above, and count them as friends. Their views are based on their experiences, which are quite different than my own, but just as valid and authentic. Have a great 2008, all of you.

I to find it disturbing that many of my fellow Mormons don't practice what they preach. I have been told my whole life that even though people choose to do wrong the gospel is still true. I myself believe it to be true. But I am beginning to understand why it turns others off as they watch Mormons around them being just like anyone else. When it comes down to it we represent what we believe. If we don't do those little things we profess to believe what does that show those around us? So for all you fellow Mormons out there take a deep look at yourself and strive a little harder to live the things we have been taught. I have a number of close family and friends who have been deeply hurt by other members. Sometimes we are our own worst enemy. And it it usually because we are living contrary to the gospel.

I know no one is perfect and humans will be humans. so we need to have patients with each other. I have known more good people in the church then I have know those who profess to believe yet don't live it but unfortunatly they stand out. They leave a bad representation on most around them.

Let us stop being self righteous and just live the things we believe and remember to have mutual respect and love for everyone around us. Including our fellow Mormons.

MAYAN is partialy correct when he stated

"most active mormons do not do all the things you say. they do not hold family home evening regularly or do their home teaching, etc. add to those numbers the fact that most mormons do not participate one bit in mormon activities and beliefs, and you have a pretty small number of self-proclaimed so-called peculiar peoples, no? "

Though I wouldn't say it is most but there are certainly enough to give that impression. We sometimes don't care for each other let alone everyone else. Even as a member I sometimes feel I am part of a minority in my ward who do the things mentioned above. Though I try to remember we are all at different stage and I too have not always done all I could. Still I think there are too many excuses and enough is enough. We have been taught what to do so we should stop with the excuses and start living what we preach.

So instead of saying well sometimes people don't always choose to do what they are taught. Let us try a little harder to do what we are taught.

I would like to add why I believe. Because I have experienced the great life that comes from having family home evening and from doing your home and visiting teaching and from praying and doing all the little things many choose not to do. They are a great strength to me personally and also to my family. I have also found that love and respect for those around you regardless of what they believe brings great friendships with great people. It creates a neighborhood of people who take care of each other. Mormon or otherwise.

Hello All,

Just wanted to jot down my thoughts on what I love about LDS culture and what makes it so distinctive to me personally.

It is the idea that my husband and I through our faith in and obediance to Jesus Christ are building an Eternal Family -- a Family striving to embrace all that is good and godly by following the pattern proscribed by God in sacred scriptures and in His temples so that we will remain together forever.

I find it so beautiful that there is this symbiotic relationship -- that as we draw closer to God we also draw closer to eachother specifically in this familial sense which I've found to be such a profoundly unmatched bond.

Despite what various families face in terms of challenges and differences, I think this overarching ideal is both unique and pervasive in its scope among Latter-day Saints and has the potential if lived to produce wonderful results.

I continue to be greatful as I apply this ideal and teachings in my life.

Best to all...

parker,

not a surprise at all. i dont intend to get into a discussion of whether or not people are human after all. if i recall correctly, Level 42 settled that for us, no?

my contention is with this comment: "Similarly, Mormons are peculiar. We don't drink or smoke. We usually have lots of kids. We believe in a modern prophet. We gather our families on monday nights to teach the kids lessons, sing songs and play games. And we generally try to engage in wholesome activities."

and i stand by my previous comment that not drinking, not smoking, having lots of kids, believing in a modern prophet, having family activities, teaching kids, singing, playing games and being wholesome is not peculiar, and is not peculiar to mormons.

it may be peculiar to think that doing so gets the rewards that motivate mormons. but those activities are not peculiar.

by the way, is there real evidence that contemporary mormon families are larger than other groups?

Mayan,
Your post reminds me of the familiar question, "Why do people do what they do when they know what they know?" Also, of Joseph Smith's response as to how he "governed" such a diverse group: "I teach them correct principles, and they govern themselves."

Just because people make poor choices when they know better or have been taught better, doesn't mean the source knowledge was faulty. It means people are human after all. Is that such a surprise?

Flashlight,

mormonism has some nice families, no doubt. there are some healthy aspects, certainly. the same can be said about islam, janism, judaism, etc.

being straight laced, as you call it, is not unique or distinct. claiming that it is unique to mormonism is a common testimony among mormons and is yet another false claim made by true believing mormons. it is vanity at best to think that a straight laced lifestyle is distinct in any way.

most active mormons do not do all the things you say. they do not hold family home evening regularly or do their home teaching, etc. add to those numbers the fact that most mormons do not participate one bit in mormon activities and beliefs, and you have a pretty small number of self-proclaimed so-called peculiar peoples, no?

where mormonism becomes harmful, imnsho, is where the image that you describe becomes more important than truth. there is plenty of sexual abuse in mormonism. alcoholism. drug abuse. child abuse. bankruptcy. and all sorts of other social ills. for some reason, it seems more important to say how wonderful it all is, and to let the realities be brushed aside and ignored.

peculiarly yours,

the peculiar, distinct, rare, extinct and elusive elephant of the mayans

Parker,

Nice words (2 Timothy 3:) from Paul? who borrowed it from the OT scribes who borrowed bits and pieces from the ancients. Actually, most contemporary NT exegetes believe after exhaustive research that the epistles to Timothy (and Titus) were not written by Paul but by "wannabee" Pauls. See Father Ray Brown's analyses in his 878 page book, An Introduction to the New Testament pp. 639, 654, 673,
an excerpt:

"Authenticity: Probably written by a disciple of Paul or a sympathetic commentator of the Pauline heritage several decades after the apostle's death. "

See also Professors Crossan and Reed's book, In Search of Paul and Professor Bruce Chilton's book, Rabbi Paul.

And Paul (or his "wannabees") the Prophet? Hardly, he could not even get the timing of Jesus' second coming correct but it did serve to dramatically increase both the conversion rate and the coffers. Hmmm, contemporary preachers/fortune tellers/Mormon "profiteers" still use that con game.

The fulfillment is all around us of this scriptural prophecy:
"This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
Having a form of godliness; but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth." --Paul the Apostle

Flashlight,

Hmmm, the only thing needed to make the perfect Mormon would be to delete the myth of Moroni and the "origins" of the Book of Mormon. Are you up to the challenge? If not, Mormonism will wallow with the rest of the Christian religions in alcoholic-induced, dream foundations and/or "conned" origins.

Mormonism's "distinctiveness" is one of its most endearing traits--to believers and to those who don't look at the Church through a critical lens. The early believers in Christ were called "a peculiar people" by Peter; and they were indeed peculiar. They bucked the political and social climate of the day with their beliefs and with their actions.

Similarly, Mormons are peculiar. We don't drink or smoke. We usually have lots of kids. We believe in a modern prophet. We gather our families on monday nights to teach the kids lessons, sing songs and play games. And we generally try to engage in wholesome activities.

A friend at work once asked me to go see a movie with him. When I asked him what the movie was rated he asked me why I cared. I told him I didn't want to see a movie that had nudity in it. I had to lift his chin off the floor. We went to see something without nudity.

This "straight laced" way of living helps to keep my kids moving in a healthy direction. And I love the Church for that. Thankfully, my kids haven't been into drugs and pornography. Certainly, not all Mormon kids are perfect, by any stretch. But the support group a kid finds in Mormonism helps him to focus on good and healthy pursuits and to avoid some of the pursuits that are more broadly accepted by society, but are not healthy.

As Michael mentions, the Church must and does change and adapt as appropriate, but I'm grateful for its distinctive moral compass.

Parker,

Drop the mention of Joe Smith and Moroni and clean up the Book of Mormon in that regard and then declare it to be a collection of human rules of conduct borrowed from the ancients and the ranks of LDS might actually increase substantially. Your contemporary "profiting prophets" will have to be "pink slipped" to make it a completed project.

The Jewish People have survived for over three thousand years.

(The earliest reference to Israel is from the funery stela of the Egyptian Pharoah Merneptah, now in the Cairo Museum, which dates to 1209 B.C.)

All other empires that persecuted the Jews, from the Arameans to the Moabites, from the Babylonians to the Assyrians to the Selucids, from the Romans to the Spanish Inquisition to the Nazis to Communists, have fallen.

Yet the Jewish People are still here.

Yes, they are very tiny: there are only 13.2 million Jews in the world, compared to 1.7 Billion Muslims and 2 Billion Christians. However, I believe they will continue to survive.

Today, every Jew by birth that is alive is not only a descendent of the people of ancient Israel, but a descendent of those who survived great persecution and pressure to convert over countless centuries.

This is a great privilage and an incredible legacy.

Yet, today many Jews are ignorant of their own heritage, from the Hebrew Bible itself to the archaeology of Israel, from the Dead Sea Scrolls to the great works of the Rabbinic Era.

Thus, in this country and others they are intermarrying, turning away from the sacrifices of their ancestors and casting out this heritage.

Pressured by societies that still hold true to the ideas of Replacement Theology--the theology that the Church, or the Islamic Ummah, has replaced the Jewish People as G-d's choosen--they often want to assimilate into the maintstream.

Without the knowledge of their history, the Jewish People cannot understand the religious roots of Replacement Theology and how it evolved into anti-Judaism and then anti-Semitism.

They forget that Jesus was a Jew, as was Mary, Joseph, John the Baptist, Peter, Paul, all the Disciples, Isaiah, Jeremiah, all the Prophets, Kings David and Solomon, Jacob, Isaac, and Moses...

Thus, they simply, and tragically, internalize it.

So, will the Jewish People disappear over time?

No, it cannot be a coincidence that after 2,000 years of Exile the Jews have returned to their ancestral homeland to build a state, as it was predicted by Jeremiah and Isaiah.

Here is the future of the Jewish People, and as they have done for three millenium, they will--however small their numbers become--continue to survive and continue their ancestral legacy.

Parker
Hello, old friend.

very nice response to Jeff

and a model of the two of you respecting your differing beliefs.

Good and true human love and respect is what is most important, regardless of what any of us do or don't believe about God and the Book of Mormon.

Peace

Henry

Att: J E F F . P. et al;

Interesting! Watch your Photons please! Other-Wise You are a Beautifull potential HUMATE! Ya.

Concerned,
Thanks for your thoughts. Glad to hear you live by those codes of conduct. I like them as well, and don't consider LDS beliefs a departure from them at all--quite the contrary, a reinforcement of them with greater understanding of the why's. So I guess we'll all just happily live by them and get along with each other quite well. Some day, perhaps you'll desire to actually find out what LDS beliefs are from valid sources. In the meantime, I note your more civil tone and appreciate the change. Peace to you. Adieu.

Parker, Parker, Parker,

You noted: "The Bible speaks of eternal torment and so forth, but Joseph Smith clarified that it is a kind of self-torment, the torment of regret. God does not impose it on us."

For goodness sake how did Joe Smith, who hallucinated about "mythical pretty thingies" (Moroni apparently had no wings), clarify anything??? When are these delusions about Joe Smith going to stop????? He made the whole thing up as a con game and it is time to accept this.

Will LDS crumble with such an admission? Hmmm, not necessarily if your leadership admits to the flaws and adopts human codes of conduct based on the Commandments, Beatitudes, the Bill of Rights, the Codes of Hammurabi, Charter of Freedom of Mankind, the Magna Carta, etc. See a great synopsis of these codes at http://www.gwu.edu/~erpapers/humanrights/timeline/timeline1.cfm.

Parker and Jim:

Thanks for the ear. I appreciate your responses.

also I might be hypothesizing but still there is no proof it is not true. just others hypothesizing. It goes around and around. People saying we are kooky and us saying we are not. All entitled to our own opinions. It is just sad some have to spend so much time trying to yes bash the others by going on and on about how kooky they are.

I consider it bashing when I am told over and over that I am stupid and blind because what I believe is Kooky by whomever. There is no respect in that. My beliefs are deep as many other mormons so I take it personal. and I am sure it is ment personal.

Jeff P.:

Thank you for sharing more about your experience and perspective. The things that you describe as not being able to reconcile with God are things that I do not attribute to God at all but to man. Instead, I see God as a loving father that honors the agency that he has given us. He gives us light and knowledge as we are prepared to receive it, and this to me shows his love and mercy.

For those that seek truth and live according to the truth that they have, I believe that there will be no pain or suffering in the next life as you describe. I believe as the scriptures teach that even the glory of the lowest (telestial) kingdom surpasses our understanding. Even though we often fail to recognize his love, it is there, and in the next life we will know of his love.

Jeff P,
Your poignant and heartfelt thoughts have been appreciated, and I for one respect you for what you are and for the respect you show others as you write. To clarify a couple of important distinctions about LDS theology (not, mind you, in an attempt to dissuade you from your path, but to at least correct what may be a misconception):

The Bible speaks of eternal torment and so forth, but Joseph Smith clarified that it is a kind of self-torment, the torment of regret. God does not impose it on us. It would be something we imposed on ourselves, but even so there will be an escape route from that torment, during whatever period of life we are in, whether in this life or in the heareafter. That is why the Bible states several times that "every knee shall bow" and tongue confess belief in Christ, because He vanquishes both death and that eternal torment, and eveyone will finally come to understand the need for His redemptive grace. (Eternal doesn't mean forever in its use with the word torment; it means "in the spirit world".)

The Father of our spirits does not live capriciously. He understands and lives by the very laws that you seek to learn about as you have studied life and life processes. He doesn't impose His will; He allows natural laws that apply in the universe to take their natural course, and lets us learn from our circumstances.

So as we all learn, whether we are religious or not, and apply the truths of the universe that we come to understand, then this world will be a better place as we do our part to make it so. I suspect you are doing just that, so I wish you well in all of those endeavors.

Thanks to all who responded, (Parker, Jim.)

I too had been a Christian for 47 years prior to my de-convert. I can speak the "faith" language. I didn't leave the faith because "my faith was never genuine." I would be willing to wager I've been immersed into Christianity as long as most on this post. Living in Salt Lake City for 15 years, I confidently understand the language of the LDS culture as well.

I left my belief-system precisely because I can't reconcile a God that, of many terrible and various characteristics to talk about, chooses first to "damn" his creatures, then to "confuse" his human creations (with a multitude of religions and beliefs,) and to "test them" to see which of them passes the test--the ones who make the wrong decisions (based on a complete lack of evidence) will suffer an eternity of unbearable pain and suffering. These are clearly man-made inventions with little imagination.

In addition, I see religions as generally enemies of the scientific method, and a source of immense danger in the sense of disinformation, repression, cognitive dissonance, and a threat to the secular fabric of our constitution (by the more radical elements of the religious.)

There will be an endless parade of logistical, epistemological and theological debate about religions and "belief" as long as I'm alive. I've heard it said that smarter people can make more and more eloquent arguments and hypothesis, even given a completely wrong premise. This was evident in the complex "sphere" diagrams and mathematics that explained the movement of the stars in the heavens, for centuries. Flat earth, four elements, etc.

Finally, it is true that the great majority of people can be wrong, in the case of religion it is a given (ie not all religions can be correct--they are generally mutually exclusive.) My hope is that Mr. Otterson's admission of the unwillingness to cater-to-the-heathens can be tempered by a willingness to share in the benefits of humanism, the world over.

Yes indeed why do we spend trillions of dollars protecting ourselves and the rest of the Free World??

It is the constant War on Terror and Aggression as noted below:

First a partial contemporary body count:

1) 9/11, 3000 mostly US citizens dead, thousands more injured.

2) The 24/7 Sunni-Shiite centuries-old blood feud currently being carried out in Iraq, 4000 US troops and 80,381-87,792 Iraqi civilians http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

3) Kenya- In Nairobi, about 212 people were killed and an estimated 4000 injured; in Dar es Salaam, the attack killed at least 11 and wounded 85.

4) Bali-in 2002-killing 202 people, 164 of whom were foreign nationals, and 38 Indonesian citizens. A further 209 people were injured.

5) Bali in 2005- Twenty people were killed, and 129 people were injured by three bombers who killed themselves in the attacks.

6) Spain in 2004- killing 191 people and wounding 2,050.

7) UK in 2005- The bombings killed 52 commuters and the four radical Islamic suicide bombers, injured 700.

Other elements of our War on Terror and Aggression:

1. Saddam the warmonger, his sons and major henchmen have been deleted. Saddam's bravado about WMD before and after the Gulf War was one of his major mistakes. Kuwait is still free.

2. Iran is being been contained. (besides containing the Sunni-Shiite civil war in Baghdad, that is the main reason we are in Iraq.) And yes, essential oil continues to flow from the region to fuel the world's economies.

3. Libya has become almost civil. Apparently this new reality from an Islamic country has upset OBL and his “crazies” as they recently threatened Libya. OBL sure is a disgrace to the world especially the Moslem world!!! (Or is he??)

4. North Korea is still uncivil but is contained. With the opening up of rail traffic between North and South Korea after 50 years and with the assistance of the US Navy in retrieving NK ships and personnel, a fresh sense of civility is afoot.

5. Northern Ireland is finally at peace.

6. The Jews and Palestinians are being separated by walls. Hopefully the walls will follow the 1948 UN accords and the Annapolis Peace Conference is at least somewhat successful.

7. Bin Laden has been cornered under a rock in Western Pakistan since 9/11.

8. Fanatical Islam has basically been contained to the Middle East but a wall between India and Pakistan would be a plus for world peace. Ditto for a wall between Afghahistan and Pakistan.

9.Timothy McVeigh was executed. Terry Nichols will follow soon.

10. Eric Rudolph is spending three life terms in prison with no parole.

11. Jim Jones, David Koresh, Kaczynski, the "nuns" from Rwanda, and the KKK were all dealt with and either eliminated themselves or are being punished.

12. Islamic Sudan, Darfur and Somalia are still terror hot spots.

13. Although a bit dated, the terror and torture of Muslims in Bosnia, Kosovo and Kuwait were ended by the proper application of the military forces of the USA and her freedom-loving friends.

14. And of course the bloody terror and aggression brought about by the Japanese, Nazis and Communists were with great difficulty and expenditure of lives and money eliminated by the good guys.

And the leadership of both Democratic and Republican Presidents and the will of all good peoples continue to guide us through these troubling times.

What has enabled the Jews to survive is the Jewish notion of “peoplehood”

This is a remarkable phrase. Jew’s didn’t intermingle with the other cultures around them to form a new culture. It’s precisely that fact that made them an easy scapegoat for everything that went wrong. And that’s in turn the reason for the prosecutions they had to endure around the globe. So the notion of “peoplehood” is what made them a target in the first place. Of course it’s not the peoplehood that is wrong. It’s the racism and fear for “the different” that is the ugly side of this all too human equation. But nevertheless “peoplehood” is one of the triggers that KILLED so many Jews rather then made them survive. It’s peoplehood that enables jewish CULTURE to survive. But one shouldn’t confound that with real living persons.

In what sense is Mormonism a culture? In that it is, especially in Utah and Southern Idaho very ethnocentric. It's leaders also suffer from the legacy of Ezra Taft Benson, a right-wing extremist, who (like Joe McCarthy) labeled anything and everything he disagreed with as "Communist" It is a culture that does not respect diversity nor tries to understand or accept gays (using electro-shock therapy to "cure" them).

Growing up in Utah, my experience of Mormonism as a culture was very bigoted, parental, paranoid and exclusive - not at all like Jesus Christ whose name it uses in it's official nomenclature.

Jews claim to be special people of God. If you made this ridiculous claim and people actually believed it wouldn’t you make a culture and a religion out of it? Jews believe that out of all the people in the world they are ordained by God as special.

The first people who claimed to be Jews thousands of years ago passed that belief on to their children. After four thousand years of this perpetuated claim the world is being negatively affected by this fallacious claim.

Here is the problem. The majority of the world with the exception of America does not believe this claim. Israel is a violent, murderous state supported by the most powerful country in the world. Israel gloats about how many of their enemies they murder each day, how uncivilized is that?

When will the world come to their senses and corral these out of control people? When will they force them to ‘tear down that wall’ and live with their neighbors peacefully? END THE WAR IN IRAQ.

Mr. Otterson, like all your posts I thought this one was enlightening and thoughtful in tone and concept, especially the idea that the timeless core beliefs of any religion must transcend the temporary cultural differences of its members. The dilemma between becoming mainstream on the one hand and maintaining distinctiveness on the other is one that all religions must grapple with in this age of modernity and the encroaching conformity of globalization. You made the case that the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is rightly "in but not of the world" as Christ would have His Church be. In many ways, the Jewish accomplishment of maintaining cultural and religious distinctiveness while thriving in non-native lands and countries for so many centuries could be viewed as a metaphor for the mortal sojourn of all humanity (I believe the original meaning of the word "Hebrew" implies a "wanderer" or "stranger" who has come from beyond) as well as a model for other religions trying to survive in a world in which distinctions and peculiarities are being leveled and are viewed as threatening.

Henry,
A cheery hello to you. I'm not sure if you know that the quote you noted is from Lorenzo Snow when he was a young man, new in the church. It isn't scripture, and though it's similar to what Joseph Smith is quoted as saying, the complexity comes in reading the King Follett sermon and realizing that Joseph talked about Christ doing "exactly" as the Father had done before Him. So it could be that Lorenzo Snow should more correctly have said, "Christ (who lived a sinless, perfect life) did as the Father did when the Father worked out His own salvation. Mankind may become joint-heirs with Christ of all that the Father enjoys in the eternities to come, but only through the grace offered by means of the atonement."

There is a big difference.

in the 19 years that i was a regular Mormon churchgoer

i heard the scripture quoted

"As man is, God once was. And as God is, man may become"

about 100,000 times.

I was never told that it wasn't "really" what WE believed.

Silly me. I believed it. And look what happened to me.

Founding a cult upon deceit is also a first step on the pathway to oblivion.

Providence

The original article is about the necessity of disticntiveness required for the LDS church to survive.

This is a great problem for the church. The church has problems with its history. Problems that many members are unaware of. Joseph Smiths' polygamy and the history of polygamy. Joseph Smiths' murder in a gunfight at the Carthage jail. God denying the blacks the priesthood, then Gods' revelation of 1978 granting worthy members (blacks) full membership (priesthood). Plural marriage (polygamy) in the afterlife. Milk before meat when teaching the gospel. As we have shown, Gordon Hinckley is not comfortable discussing the plan of salvation with Larry King (men becoming Gods.

It is difficult to bring a community together if its common history is not discussed. Even with all the changes and accepting these changes. The temple should bind the community together, but how many members are worthyand have a temple recommend? I imagine Jewish weddings where the whole community can come together, men, women and children. To attend a temple wedding one must be worthy and have a recommend. I do not think children witness the wedding. An LDS wedding does not bring the community together like a Jewish, Italian or Sikh wedding would.

An unbelievable and dramatic history is being forgotten.

I think the church will slip away in 100 years or so.

The original article is about the necessity of disticntiveness required for the LDS church to survive.

This is a great problem for the church. The church has problems with its history. Problems that many members are unaware of. Joseph Smiths' polygamy and the history of polygamy. Joseph Smiths' murder in a gunfight at the Carthage jail. God denying the blacks the priesthood, then Gods' revelation of 1978 granting worthy members (blacks) full membership (priesthood). Plural marriage (polygamy) in the afterlife. Milk before meat when teaching the gospel. As we have shown, Gordon Hinckley is not comfortable discussing the plan of salvation with Larry King (men becoming Gods.

It is difficult to bring a community together if its common history is not discussed. Even with all the changes and accepting these changes. The temple should bind the community together, but how many members are worthyand have a temple recommend? I imagine Jewish weddings where the whole community can come together, men, women and children. To attend a temple wedding one must be worthy and have a recommend. I do not think children witness the wedding. An LDS wedding does not bring the community together like a Jewish, Italian or Sikh wedding would.

An unbelievable and dramatic history is being forgotten.

I think the church will slip away in 100 years or so.

Perhaps in the future, we'll discard the artificial groupings that man has made for himself, including those of religion.

In fact, human beings are evolving as a species at the fastest rate ever. Within the next two hundred years, we may have evolved distinctions that make our artificial differences pale in comparison.

Why embrace artificial and forced distinctiveness when REAL distinctiveness is evolving as we speak? Article follows:
.
.
Public release date: 10-Dec-2007

Contact: Lee Siegel
801-581-8993
University of Utah

ARE HUMANS EVOLVING FASTER?

Findings suggest we are becoming more different, not alike

Researchers discovered genetic evidence that human evolution is speeding up – and has not halted or proceeded at a constant rate, as had been thought – indicating that humans on different continents are becoming increasingly different.

“We used a new genomic technology to show that humans are evolving rapidly, and that the pace of change has accelerated a lot in the last 40,000 years, especially since the end of the Ice Age roughly 10,000 years ago,” says research team leader Henry Harpending, a distinguished professor of anthropology at the University of Utah.

Harpending says there are provocative implications from the study, published online Monday, Dec. 10 in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences:

-- “We aren’t the same as people even 1,000 or 2,000 years ago,” he says, which may explain, for example, part of the difference between Viking invaders and their peaceful Swedish descendants. “The dogma has been these are cultural fluctuations, but almost any temperament trait you look at is under strong genetic influence.”

-- “Human races are evolving away from each other,” Harpending says. “Genes are evolving fast in Europe, Asia and Africa, but almost all of these are unique to their continent of origin. We are getting less alike, not merging into a single, mixed humanity.” He says that is happening because humans dispersed from Africa to other regions 40,000 years ago, “and there has not been much flow of genes between the regions since then.”

“Our study denies the widely held assumption or belief that modern humans [those who widely adopted advanced tools and art] appeared 40,000 years ago, have not changed since and that we are all pretty much the same. We show that humans are changing relatively rapidly on a scale of centuries to millennia, and that these changes are different in different continental groups.”

The increase in human population from millions to billions in the last 10,000 years accelerated the rate of evolution because “we were in new environments to which we needed to adapt,” Harpending adds. “And with a larger population, more mutations occurred.”

Study co-author Gregory M. Cochran says: “History looks more and more like a science fiction novel in which mutants repeatedly arose and displaced normal humans – sometimes quietly, by surviving starvation and disease better, sometimes as a conquering horde. And we are those mutants.”

Harpending conducted the study with Cochran, a New Mexico physicist, self-taught evolutionary biologist and adjunct professor of anthropology at the University of Utah; anthropologist John Hawks, a former Utah postdoctoral researcher now at the University of Wisconsin, Madison; geneticist Eric Wang of Affymetrix, Inc. in Santa Clara, Calif.; and biochemist Robert Moyzis of the University of California, Irvine.

No Justification for Discrimination

The new study comes from two of the same University of Utah scientists – Harpending and Cochran – who created a stir in 2005 when they published a study arguing that above-average intelligence in Ashkenazi Jews – those of northern European heritage – resulted from natural selection in medieval Europe, where they were pressured into jobs as financiers, traders, managers and tax collectors. Those who were smarter succeeded, grew wealthy and had bigger families to pass on their genes. Yet that intelligence also is linked to genetic diseases such as Tay-Sachs and Gaucher in Jews.

That study and others dealing with genetic differences among humans – whose DNA is more than 99 percent identical – generated fears such research will undermine the principle of human equality and justify racism and discrimination. Other critics question the quality of the science and argue culture plays a bigger role than genetics.

Harpending says genetic differences among different human populations “cannot be used to justify discrimination. Rights in the Constitution aren’t predicated on utter equality. People have rights and should have opportunities whatever their group.”

Analyzing SNPs of Evolutionary Acceleration

The study looked for genetic evidence of natural selection – the evolution of favorable gene mutations – during the past 80,000 years by analyzing DNA from 270 individuals in the International HapMap Project, an effort to identify variations in human genes that cause disease and can serve as targets for new medicines.

The new study looked specifically at genetic variations called “single nucleotide polymorphisms,” or SNPs (pronounced “snips”) which are single-point mutations in chromosomes that are spreading through a significant proportion of the population.

Imagine walking along two chromosomes – the same chromosome from two different people. Chromosomes are made of DNA, a twisting, ladder-like structure in which each rung is made of a “base pair” of amino acids, either G-C or A-T. Harpending says that about every 1,000 base pairs, there will be a difference between the two chromosomes. That is known as a SNP.

Data examined in the study included 3.9 million SNPs from the 270 people in four populations: Han Chinese, Japanese, Africa’s Yoruba tribe and northern Europeans, represented largely by data from Utah Mormons, says Harpending.

Over time, chromosomes randomly break and recombine to create new versions or variants of the chromosome. “If a favorable mutation appears, then the number of copies of that chromosome will increase rapidly” in the population because people with the mutation are more likely to survive and reproduce, Harpending says.

“And if it increases rapidly, it becomes common in the population in a short time,” he adds.

The researchers took advantage of that to determine if genes on chromosomes had evolved recently. Humans have 23 pairs of chromosomes, with each parent providing one copy of each of the 23. If the same chromosome from numerous people has a segment with an identical pattern of SNPs, that indicates that segment of the chromosome has not broken up and recombined recently.

That means a gene on that segment of chromosome must have evolved recently and fast; if it had evolved long ago, the chromosome would have broken and recombined.

Harpending and colleagues used a computer to scan the data for chromosome segments that had identical SNP patterns and thus had not broken and recombined, meaning they evolved recently. They also calculated how recently the genes evolved.

A key finding: 7 percent of human genes are undergoing rapid, recent evolution.

The researchers built a case that human evolution has accelerated by comparing genetic data with what the data should look like if human evolution had been constant:

The study found much more genetic diversity in the SNPs than would be expected if human evolution had remained constant.
If the rate at which new genes evolve in Africans was extrapolated back to 6 million years ago when humans and chimpanzees diverged, the genetic difference between modern chimps and humans would be 160 times greater than it really is. So the evolution rate of Africans represents a recent speedup in evolution.
If evolution had been fast and constant for a long time, there should be many recently evolved genes that have spread to everyone. Yet, the study revealed many genes still becoming more frequent in the population, indicating a recent evolutionary speedup.
Next, the researchers examined the history of human population size on each continent. They found that mutation patterns seen in the genome data were consistent with the hypothesis that evolution is faster in larger populations.

Evolutionary Change and Human History: Got Milk?

“Rapid population growth has been coupled with vast changes in cultures and ecology, creating new opportunities for adaptation,” the study says. “The past 10,000 years have seen rapid skeletal and dental evolution in human populations, as well as the appearance of many new genetic responses to diet and disease.”

The researchers note that human migrations into new Eurasian environments created selective pressures favoring less skin pigmentation (so more sunlight could be absorbed by skin to make vitamin D), adaptation to cold weather and dietary changes.

Because human population grew from several million at the end of the Ice Age to 6 billion now, more favored new genes have emerged and evolution has speeded up, both globally and among continental groups of people, Harpending says.

"We have to understand genetic change in order to understand history,” he adds.

For example, in China and most of Africa, few people can digest fresh milk into adulthood. Yet in Sweden and Denmark, the gene that makes the milk-digesting enzyme lactase remains active, so “almost everyone can drink fresh milk,” explaining why dairying is more common in Europe than in the Mediterranean and Africa, Harpending says.

He now is studying if the mutation that allowed lactose tolerance spurred some of history’s great population expansions, including when speakers of Indo-European languages settled all the way from northwest India and central Asia through Persia and across Europe 4,000 to 5,000 years ago. He suspects milk drinking gave lactose-tolerant Indo-European speakers more energy, allowing them to conquer a large area.

But Harpending believes the speedup in human evolution “is a temporary state of affairs because of our new environments since the dispersal of modern humans 40,000 years ago and especially since the invention of agriculture 12,000 years ago. That changed our diet and changed our social systems. If you suddenly take hunter-gatherers and give them a diet of corn, they frequently get diabetes. We’re still adapting to that. Several new genes we see spreading through the population are involved with helping us prosper with high-carbohydrate diet.”

###
University of Utah Public Relations
201 Presidents Circle, Room 308
Salt Lake City, Utah 84112-9017
(801) 581-6773 fax: (801) 585-3350

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2007-12/uou-ahe120607.php

ittakesfaith,

yup, it goes both ways.

the bashing is not good for anyone. though, i would caution you to not confuse the judgment of your beliefs as kooky with bashing. if you told me that joseph smith was told to practice yoga while wearing green aprons and yellow mittens, i would think that was kooky but i doubt i would bash anyone for believing that such yoga would get them to heaven. please do not confuse the perception of your beliefs with a bashing. after all, those beliefs are merely based on your feelings of your fibers and not provable.

you really cant guess what the reaction to proof of your book would be, cuz its never happened. its unprovable. you are just hypothesizing.

Angels aka "pretty wingie thingies" are myths. The Book of Mormon existence relies on the "words" of one "pretty wingie thingie" named Moroni. No Moroni, no Book of Mormon. Next!!!

if you research long enough you can never disprove or prove the valitaty of the Book of Mormon. So it all comes down to faith. I agree with the comments that that is how God works. People have seen different things in there lives and still denied the truth of whatever it was. It is a sad part of human nature. So if definate scientific proof of the book came out tomorrow there would be the same amount that wouldn't believe. They would find something else to argue about. Not everyone will accept the gospel as Mormons teach it and that is their right. I just wish that everyone would equally respect one anothers choice and each move on without bashing one another. It goes both ways.

Mayan,
Nice to have this chat. I hope you are well. You're right that I got a little heavy--thanks for lightening things up.

As to exaltation being a reward that appears to make someone think they're better than someone else, I disagree totally. In the first place, "it isn't over until it's over" and ultimately humble followers of Christ in the billions will be there together, regardless of the timetable they followed in learning.

In the second place, we're really just talking about learning to love as God loves, and as I learn more about that by experience every day and every year, it is the richest of all sources of joy. Obviously, the LDS don't hold any exclusivity on that learning process. God's plan encompasses all of His children, and He is no respecter of persons. Enjoy the learning while you enjoy the ride.

Really, I think the Jews as a people retained as much of their identity as they did (And this was by no means complete: in fact, many Jewish scholars will cite just how much of the common perception of Judaism and what the religion once was was in fact shaped by how things were spun to 'fit in' among a repressive Christian view of Judaism,) But they also maintained that separate identity by *not trying to assimilate others* into their religion...

I think a lot of Mormonism distancing itself from its racist and more-overtly-sexist history has as much to do with trying to assimilate into it people who simply would not accept this.

One can hardly call this a bad thing, but for one, change isn't always negative, and for another, 'history' can in fact mean different things at different times.

Especially with a highly-sanitized Mormon presidential candidate in the race, it's easy to see how *he* has altered his positions and public perceptions, sometimes before our very eyes, ...promising to respect the wishes of a pro-choice and generally-gay-rights-positive state on one hand, then going back on it to style himself as a mainstream Christian conservative the moment the GOP courted him as a Presidential candidate. (in the process betraying the very assurances that got him elected in Massachusetts, for that matter.)

(That's not Mormon-bashing, it's just that as a resident of the state at the time, it's just a prominent example that happens to stick in my mind. As a member of a minority religion,myself, Romney being Mormon is the *only* thing I like about the guy, at least until what that actually might mean for policy gets involved.)

But the effects of seeking broader influence and membership are not to be discounted in terms of maintaining 'distinctiveness...'

Jews don't proselytize, in other words.

If you're not trying to sell yourself, you don't have those internal pressures.

I would dispute the assertion that the Jews have been best at maintaining an identity, particularly in terms of theology, cause that has changed profoundly.

I'll point out the oft-forgotten Roma people (AKA Gypsies) and a lot of aboriginal peoples, if you'd ever lived among wither of those.

Reaaally complex subject to bring up, but they have in common with the Jews both not-trying-to-recruit, and not-particularly-being well-liked, let's say.

They also don't seek political power over others.

These are very important factors, too.

Parker mate,

you said - "I don't think God who is omnipotent would "allow" to be archeologically discovered some incontrovertible finding that everyone would agree says "this proves the Book of Mormon history is true by physical evidence."
Why?

Because one of the core purposes of this life is to learn about how faith governs and initiates action in the universe, and the only way to learn about that kind of faith is to "see through a glass darkly", learn to love truth because we feel it is true with every fiber of our being, and learn to understand the incontrovertible guidance of the Holy Ghost, the revealer of truth, who has revealed to me the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon."

your logic is yet another part of mormon doctrine and culture that is distinct and right by a believers standards. it is perfectly understandable why others may consider your logic odd and ridiculous.

the end result of the logic is that it makes the believer, or the being with each and every fiber touched out to be the better person. in fact, not only does the fiber-touched being get to know god here, but mormons think that those with touched fibers get to be god.

well guess what, i was driving to work today, i saw a billboard for my favorite radio station and my fibers were so touched, that i just had to stand up here before you today and tell you that i know, with every fiber of my being, that KFOG is true. i guess that makes me a KFOG god.

an omnipotent god may just be powerful enough to set less traps and tricks for his peeps, but what do i know, the KFOG gods are busy collecting ad revenue and not so much into tithing and stuff.

Avispex and Jeff P, although your comments were directed to Parker, I'll add my thoughts while we wait for Parker's comments.

If I read you correctly, you both suggest that spiritual truth should be accompanied by tangible evidence. For one basic example, how do we even know there is a God? We haven't seen Him, but that doesn't mean that he isn't there. He continues to reveal truth to man as he always has, and it is not through giving tangible evidence. Instead, he allows us to exercise our faith, to believe without having scientific proof. Although some will say that it is unreliable, He teaches truth through the witness of the Holy Ghost to our spirit. This is God's way.

Avispex, there is much more riding on the validity of the Book of Mormon than on your book. If the Book of Mormon is the word of God, then Joseph Smith is a prophet and the fulness of the gospel was restored through Joseph. But believers of the Book of Mormon do not seek for archaeological evidence that it is true- they have read and pondered its words, and the Holy Ghost has born witness to their spirits that it is God's word. Yes, it does take faith, but this is how God reveals truth to man.

Avispex,
You certainly write like a scholar, and a good one at that. I enjoyed your example. Please read my just prior post that was being written as you wrote yours, then read the following article:
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=c4f105481ae6b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1

I've not once found I had to "put my head into the sand" about any refutation of the Book of Mormon from an archeological or DNA perspective. So, I don't have to deal with the kind of "blind eye to reality" you allude to. Not at all.

You are a masterful writer. Peace to you.

Jeff P,
Thanks for your kind question and the thoughtfulness behind it. The answer I offer will be rather complex, but it relates to the discussion several have been having about the progression available to all mortal beings.

Although I don't oppose the efforts of those who explore archeological findings that corroborate the Book of Mormon history (and many have found artifacts, whole communities, beliefs in a being similar to Christ, and so forth that agree with the Book of Mormon history), I don't think God who is omnipotent would "allow" to be archeologically discovered some incontrovertible finding that everyone would agree says "this proves the Book of Mormon history is true by physical evidence."
Why?

Because one of the core purposes of this life is to learn about how faith governs and initiates action in the universe, and the only way to learn about that kind of faith is to "see through a glass darkly", learn to love truth because we feel it is true with every fiber of our being, and learn to understand the incontrovertible guidance of the Holy Ghost, the revealer of truth, who has revealed to me the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

Also, because the test of this life is designed to sift out any and all imposters who would seek for power, the exercising of faith and agency, in any "degree of unrighteousness"--or in other words, for selfish purposes such as self-glorification and aggrandizement. The only righteous purposes, which we are obliged to learn about all we can, are the motivations of love, allowing the free will of others, faith as a moving power of action--in short, desiring exactly what God desires and learning to follow Christ just as He followed the guidance of the Father in all things.

I hope that has explained a little bit further. Peace to you.

Parker,

Thanks for your response. I had no intention of appearing scholarly, and in fact, I am no scholar of religion. I do not pretend to be.

My comments were in direct relation to the distinctive challenge facing Mormons because of the particular value of testimony in this faith. In more simple terms, the Mormon church requires its members to throw away honesty in order to swear something is true and places the highest value on this act.

Now, I am not saying that all Mormons are liars or that Mormons are bad. What I am saying is that Mormons must perform all kinds of linguistic and logical gymnastics in order to reconcile the reality of the Book of Mormon with a requirement to swear that it is true. As a basic rule of thumb, if you need to use a double standard, blindfold, or bend over backwards in order to claim something is true, you are not being honest with yourself.

Let's pretend I wrote a very small book. It is called "The Book of Avispex." It contains only two sentences and here they are: 1) In the year 240 BC an enormous civilization called the Yamos waged war with the Moyas in South America using horses and bronze spears. 2) People who are kind and generous to those in need find fulfillment in acting benevolently.

I know it is a short book. So, the real question becomes, is my book true? Obviously an honest answer to my question is not based on whether somebody learns some truth from it or finds helpful information about relationships. The truth of my book is not something that can be evaluated based on warm feelings in the spirit when reading it. Whether or not the people, places, and events described in my book actually existed and occurred as described is not irrelevant to the truth of my book.

The fact that you use a double standard, different standard, and turn a blind eye to reality in order to evaluate the "truth" of the "Book of Mormon" differently from how you (or any objective and honest person) would determine the truth of The Book of Avispex perfectly illustrates the challenge I was describing.

The church simultaneously raises the estimation of Truth while devaluing honest assessment. Mormons are taught from infancy to count warm spiritual feelings instead of facts when it comes to the Church. As adults, it is little wonder that when it comes to the Book of Mormon, statements like, "Facts are irrelevant to truth" flow innocently from the convinced. For your information Parker, your statement concerning the excavations in Central America does not need to be conditional. No excavations in Central or South America show any signs of the vast civilizations, the metals, the horses, etc. You don't need to say "even if..." when describing which truths you will ignore to maintain your faith.

Circus Watcher:
I agree with your last post and don't think that any previous post of mine disagreed with what you said. The only thing I disagree with is that we currently teach that God was once a man. I'm not saying that is untrue; I'm just saying that particular belief is not a core doctrine in my opinion. I don't recall that appearing in any of the church's curriculum, nor do I recall this being officially declared in recent times.

Hello Jim,
I see this issue as part of the plan of salvation. Exhaltation to Godhood. Very much an LDS belief. A core belief. The Gospel Principles class is designed for new members - just converted. This is what the church priesthood leaders want new members to learn in their first year of attendance. This is core. Yes many Mormons believe in Jesus and the atonement, but I can learn that at any Christian church. The restored Gospel is the restored priesthood. The ordinances of the priesthood are meant to serve others and to accomplish the plan of salvation. That is to become Gods. This doctrine has been around since the time of Joseph Smith.
Why do you not see this as a core belief?

Parker:

"What's so exciting for me is that I don't have to question based on the insufficient logic you rely on."

"For me, the Book of Mormon would "ring true" even if the whole of Central America were excavated to 200 feet deep and nothing was found..."

Parker, I'm not so certain this is virtuous. And yes, there are plenty of people to tell us what to think and believe, be they parents or church authorities.

There are certainly "truths" that "ring true" regarding human compassion, love, altruism, and that very old love-your-neighbor-as-yourself universal call that are not specific to any religion, that one might find in any number of religious books (but I see them frequently in fiction, and film as well, often more fully demonstrated than in the holy books.)

But being proud and supportive of a "belief" or calling it "faith," despite sufficient evidence, isn't particularly a "virtue" I'd want to teach to my kids. Can you explain more perhaps?

SML,
Here's a link off of lds.org to a great article dealing with the two implicit very distinct questions implied in the question asked of President Hinckley:
http://www.lds.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?vgnextoid=2354fccf2b7db010VgnVCM1000004d82620aRCRD&locale=0&sourceId=b79b27cd3f37b010VgnVCM1000004d82620a____&hideNav=1#footnote15

Also, I inadvertently posted the previous Anonymous message as a reply to Sister Mary Lisa.

In my opinion, our potential to be exalted, to become a god is an important part of the LDS beliefs; however, whether God was once a man as we are now is not a core teaching. You might notice that the section quoted by Circus Watcher has no reference to this belief but instead focuses on God's love for his children and his desire to make it possible for all of us to become like him if we so choose.

Circus,

that whole spirit children suggestion is a bit creepy. procreation of spirits? that is certainly distinctive and i can sympathize with anyone that thinks it is also odd.

Will men become Gods?

From the LDS Gospel Essentials Manual

http:// www.lds.org / library / display / 0,4945,11-1-13-59,00.html

Blessings of Exaltation
Our Heavenly Father is perfect. However, he is not jealous of his wisdom and perfection. He glories in the fact that it is possible for his children to become like him. He has said, "This is my work and my glory--to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man" (Moses 1:39).

Those who receive exaltation in the celestial kingdom through faith in Jesus Christ will receive special blessings. The Lord has promised, "All things are theirs" (D&C 76:59). These are some of the blessings given to exalted people:

They will live eternally in the presence of Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ (see D&C 76).

They will become gods.

They will have their righteous family members with them and will be able to have spirit children also. These spirit children will have the same relationship to them as we do to our Heavenly Father. They will be an eternal family.

They will receive a fulness of joy.

They will have everything that our Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ have--all power, glory, dominion, and knowledge. President Joseph Fielding Smith wrote: "The Father has promised through the Son that all that he has shall be given to those who are obedient to his commandments. They shall increase in knowledge, wisdom, and power, going from grace to grace, until the fulness of the perfect day shall burst upon them" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:36).

Eee Gads!

are you kidding me right now?

not sure what all the bickering is about on this one. Otterson is right when he said - "the agent of that Restoration was the boy Joseph Smith, and that the revelations that flowed from it included the Book of Mormon and a clear understanding of the purpose of life and our eternal destiny in the context of family."

it couldnt be more clear in the mormon teachings that this purpose in life is to prove our worthiness in order to become gods and goddesses, including perpetual reproduction of other worlds.

its only in the mode of 'wannabe like the other churches' that this doctrine is downplayed. like otterson, i dont think mormon doctrine or beliefs should prohibit a mormon from integrating seamlessly with society. but, unlike otterson, i would certainly question the integrity of any true believing mormon that would publicly deny that this particular concept was a core part of church doctrine.

Anonymous/Parker:

I am astounded!

I was taught that the Mormon promise about the future of faithful members was predicated on the idea that God was once a man, and that this was one of the most fundamental concepts of the entire religion.

As a Mormon, I was taught that:

1. By being faithful to the commandments, my wife and I could be sealed in the temple, for time and eternity.

2. By being faithful to the temple covenants, and enduring to the end, we could become gods. (D&C 132:20)

3. In doing so, we were following in the steps of God, who was once a man on a planet similar to this earth.

4. One of the fundamental truths that Joseph Smith learned about god, contradicting the then current teachings of the Christian churches, was that God was a man. And that knowledge of the attributes of God was knowledge essential to exaltation.

5. One part of the three-fold mission of the Mormon church, "Perfecting the Saints", means working towards an eternal reward that can be hoped for only if God was once a man, and that we may become, like Him, gods.

Are these not fundamental teachings and core doctrines of the LDS church?

If not, what do members see as the ultimate goal of life? What are they striving for? And what is it that the LDS church offers that no other church does?

The thirst for tangible evidence or proof of the authenticity of the Book of Mormon is understandable. But what many critics of Mormonism must grasp is that truth can be revealed in many different ways. Scientific deduction is one method--but it is not the only way.

I have felt the sweet whisperings of the spirit confirm the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon. I, like Parker, have read the book many times and each time I have found sublime truths conveyed in plain terms. For example, I have learned that God gives each of us weaknesses that we may be humble; and that humility is a key componant of faith. I have learned that the end purpose of this life is to find joy. I have learned that the Savior has the power to deliver us both spiritually as well as temporally. I have found peace in my life as I have tried to practice my faith.

Good luck to each of you on your own quest for happiness.

JT

Avispex,
Your assertion may be true for you, but not for anyone I know who are Mormons--some 1,000 people or so whom I have known personally. For me, the Book of Mormon would "ring true" even if the whole of Central America were excavated to 200 feet deep and nothing was found that resembled a culture of Christian believers from the early centuries AD. The book "rings true" because it contains light and truth about so many aspects of life and relationships and sheds so much additional light on Biblical truth. Your comment was well worded and scholarly in appearance, but it rings so "false" for me that as CCNL said about something he doesn't understand in the least, it falls on "deaf ears" for many thousands of people.

What's so exciting for me is that I don't have to question based on the insufficient logic you rely on. I have read the book upwards of 40 times, and learned more about life and how to live it more happily and abundantly each time I have read it. There are truths to be found all over the world, but the Book of Mormon is a repository of many precious ones.

Sister Mary Lisa,
I sincerely hope all is well with your family. I agree with the anonymous response to your comment. If you saw that taught or emphasized in a class you attended, then you were watching a teacher who was off on a tangent, because not enough has been said about that subject to even understand an inkling of what was attributed to Joseph Smith by the scribes of the King Follett sermon, nor is it sure what exactly he said.

True enough that LDS church leaders don't hover over every class discussion and correct every tangential comment or every attempt by teachers to explore "mysteries", but the lesson manuals which are to be the primary source material don't "teach" or "emphasize" that, so President Hinckley was being cordial and perhaps curt (as would be expected under such circumstances), but factual. But again, 'hope all is well with you and your loved ones.

Sister Mary Lisa:

But, Michael Otterson also admits:

"This doesn’t mean that change within the culture isn’t possible. Neither does it mean that every Mormon has to agree with what every other Mormon might have said throughout history. There are facts such as those I’ve mentioned that are important for the core of the faith, and there are facts that are merely interesting."

This is completely consistent with President Hinckley's response in the Time interview. Some could interpret President Hinckley's response as an attempt to be more socially acceptable, but to me it is more likely that he was simply saying that the question being asked was far from a core doctrine of the LDS Church.

Otterson writes, "I know of no leader in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who believes or teaches that Mormons should just be like everybody else or concede various doctrinal disagreements with other churches in order to be more socially acceptable."

Yet when Gordon B. Hinckley was interviewd as prophet and leader of the Mormon church, he was asked:

Question: "Is this the teaching of the church today, that God the Father was once a man like we are?"

Hinckley: "I don't know that we teach it. I don't know that we emphasize it. I haven't heard it discussed for a long time in public discourse. I don't know. I don't know all the circumstances under which that statement was made. I understand the philosophical background behind it. But I don't know a lot about it and I don't know that others know a lot about it."
- Interviewing Gordon B. Hinckley, Time Magazine, Aug 4, 1997

I can't imagine what President Hinckley's purpose would be to deny that he knows that we teach that or emphasize that in the church, except to try to be more socially acceptable as Otterson claims leaders do not do.

Mike,

the comparisons to jews and judaism are very common among mormons. in fact, dallin oaks, in an interview that is on your website, suggested that the early mormons were merely victims of holocaust-like forces.

he says, "After you talk about all of the objective reasons for this persecution, there is still another layer necessary to explain the persistence of it and the fervency of it. I have to fall back on my belief that in this world there is good and there is evil. And some of the things that I see happening in the world like the Holocaust are only explainable by a manifest evil force, and I think some of that evil force was at work against the Mormons in this period."

unfortunately, oaks fails miserably to acknowledge smiths role in inviting such persecution and putting so many faithful members lives at risk to protect his secrets and his story.

Mr. Otterson,

Until you can come to grips with the myths of Mormonism especially the "pretty wingie thingie" named Moroni, your words will continue to fall of deaf ears.

Your comments about Jews do not ring true to me. From the outside, perhaps it seems that all Jews partake of "being Jewish" equally, however, within the broad category, there are several divisions that are not transcended simply by the unifying force of "being Jewish" that you imply. Similarly, your comments completely ignore the role of assimilation in changing both the number of Jews and the nature of Jewish identity.

In any case, it seems to me that the central challenge for Mormonism rests upon the need to believe in the truth of the Church and the restoration of Joseph Smith despite increasing evidence that there is not a single word of truth in "The Book of Mormon" itself. Every living Jew or Christian could theoretically visit Jerusalem, Nazareth, even Bethlehem. How many Mormons have stood within 100 miles of a single New World site mentioned in the Book of Mormon? 200 miles? A continent or two?

Contrary to your suggestion that pressures to sacrifice "distinctiveness" for social acceptance is at the heart of current challenges to Mormonism, it seems to me that the greater challenge comes from within. Mormonism places great value on one's personal testimony of faith in the truth of the church, its founder, and its documents. At the same time, the Church requires its members to turn a blind eye to the fact that the "truths" they are swearing to as real were nothing more than figments in Joseph Smith's imagination.

Ultimately, the crisis of faith for Mormons does not come down to pressures to be accepted by others. The Mormon Church puts its members in the untenable position of having their personal faith in the Church have the greatest value in a currency of "truth" that the Church requires be taken for granted.

Your comments about Jews do not ring true to me. From the outside, perhaps it seems that all Jews partake of "being Jewish" equally, however, within the broad category, there are several divisions that are not transcended simply by the unifying force of "being Jewish" that you imply. Similarly, your comments completely ignore the role of assimilation in changing both the number of Jews and the nature of Jewish identity.

In any case, it seems to me that the central challenge for Mormonism rests upon the need to believe in the truth of the Church and the restoration of Joseph Smith despite increasing evidence that there is not a single word of truth in "The Book of Mormon" itself. Every living Jew or Christian could theoretically visit Jerusalem, Nazareth, even Bethlehem. How many Mormons have stood within 100 miles of a single New World site mentioned in the Book of Mormon? 200 miles? A continent or two?

Contrary to your suggestion that pressures to sacrifice "distinctiveness" for social acceptance is at the heart of current challenges to Mormonism, it seems to me that the greater challenge comes from within. Mormonism places great value on one's personal testimony of faith in the truth of the church, its founder, and its documents. At the same time, the Church requires its members to turn a blind eye to the fact that the "truths" they are swearing to as real were nothing more than figments in Joseph Smith's imagination.

Ultimately, the crisis of faith for Mormons does not come down to pressures to be accepted by others. The Mormon Church puts its members in the untenable position of having their personal faith in the Church have the greatest value in a currency of "truth" that the Church requires be taken for granted.